IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-09-11
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01:34:38 <Smoovious> a couple years ago I played a server that had some municipal airports set up... been trying to find out how it was done... anyone know? (wanting to set up my own server to do that)
01:45:38 <Mazur> You start the server and build the municipal airports, and start the planes.
01:45:57 <Mazur> We start every game like that.
01:46:59 <Mazur> And pay off the debt first, and let hte planes make the initial money to build our networks.
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03:41:45 <trebuchet> Since I got OpenTTD 1.0.3 to compile on OpenBSD47/Loongsong(mipsel 64bit) port, is that worth noting? A lot of other OSS games don't play this nice cross-platform wise.
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04:36:28 <Mazur> If there is no binary offered for that platform, I'm sure they are interested in whether it works and in a maintainer for such a binary.
04:40:57 <ccfreak2k> What kind of box still uses mipsel and isn't embedded?
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05:36:42 <trebuchet> ccfreak2k: Look up Lemote Inc.
05:36:54 <trebuchet> They have a 10" netbook I use called the YeeLoong.
05:37:23 <trebuchet> They also have an all-in-one thing like an iMac, and a small ITX box.
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07:32:50 <SmatZ> after a long time, I came back home in the morning...
07:35:36 <SmatZ> I have often feeling the person who writes xkcd is my twin brother...
07:39:08 <planetmaker> That xkcd is some of those where I also felt quite like "yeah, exaclty!" :-)
07:40:23 <planetmaker> btw, SmatZ: the travel agency booked me a return ticket for less than 60€
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07:59:49 <Rubidium> planetmaker: wow, that's pretty cheap ;)
08:00:11 <planetmaker> moin Terkhen and Rubidium
08:00:23 <planetmaker> and... good bye till Sunday. Off to Utrecht ;-)
08:00:47 <Terkhen> planetmaker: have a good weekend :)
08:03:37 <Rubidium> good luck doing whatever you intend to do in Utreg
08:11:57 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 11 hours, 11 minutes, and 7 seconds ago: <frosch123> oh, btw. Eddi|zuHause: all languages have currently at least one untranslated string :p
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08:15:12 * Rubidium blames andythenorth for asking that to DorpsGek a whole 4 seconds too early
08:15:15 * SmatZ wonders if anyone would notice if that greeting was automated
08:16:16 <Alberth> if you do it once or twice, probably not
08:16:50 <SmatZ> 11,11,7 in base4 is 23,23,13
08:17:19 <andythenorth> can I ask a question?
08:17:53 * Terkhen wonders if andythenorth can ask a question or not
08:17:58 <Rubidium> yes, a vigorous study has concluded that you are physically and mentally able to pose a question
08:18:22 <andythenorth> how do I get my baby to sleep?
08:18:25 <andythenorth> sorry wrong question
08:18:44 <Rubidium> get it up by the feet at swing at the wall till silent?
08:19:09 <andythenorth> I need to restrict availability of certain industry *layouts* by time
08:19:35 <andythenorth> I can allow / prevent them with cb28, but that will be very frustrating to players
08:20:17 <andythenorth> i.e. layout 4 is disallowed in 1870. player tries to build in 1870. game randomly selects layout 4. player isn't allowed to build.
08:20:20 <Rubidium> there's nothing beside that, except using other graphics and such based on the building date
08:20:40 <Rubidium> but then the (base) layout would be the same
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08:22:27 <VVG> i've made a prototype for a vehicle sorter using arrival/departure times. While it uses the already avaible code in trunk to calculate the A/D times, i get slightly different results :(
08:27:48 <andythenorth> I suppose extending the values cb28 can return is out of the question?
08:27:57 <andythenorth> i.e. 0404 == 'try another layout'
08:28:12 <andythenorth> (could lead to deadlocks if all layouts unavailable)
08:32:21 * Rubidium sees more in callback sending a random number to the NewGRF so it can decide the layout (possibly with the tile where the user wants to build the object)
08:32:45 <Rubidium> maybe even with a "move the northern tile by XY"
08:32:56 <Rubidium> so building those harbours becomes slightly easier
08:33:27 <andythenorth> so newgrf specifies layout number, not game?
08:33:58 <Rubidium> andythenorth: except when the callback returns an invalid value or not at all ofcourse
08:35:54 <andythenorth> the goal is to have industries that are conceptually same (e.g. small shop, big shop) use just one ID
08:36:07 <andythenorth> but some types only available in certain dates
08:36:35 <andythenorth> it might be too complicated....means also possibly varying production code depending on layout number
08:36:46 <andythenorth> but it would make mini-map easier to use
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08:49:03 <andythenorth> Alberth: is there a more scientific method to test your industry patch than watching the game on ff?
08:54:23 <Alberth> if you run it with -d industry=3 you get messages at stdout about the internal data state, not sure whether that helps a lot though :)
08:55:23 <Alberth> you could consider making a graph of how many industries it builds or how much it is behind, or how often it fails to build or so, at least it looks more scientific then :)
08:56:17 <andythenorth> I never figured out how to run the game headless and have it log industry openings / closures
08:57:17 <Alberth> I added the 'industry' debug, so before, you definitely could not monitor that unless you add code for it
08:58:11 <Alberth> would such a thing be any good?
08:58:19 <Terkhen> I still have that log industry opening/closure patch somewhere
08:58:24 <Terkhen> it is just a hack, though
08:58:33 <andythenorth> isn't everything? :P
08:58:59 <Alberth> I added a log-line at level 2 for closures iirc, I can also add one for opening
08:59:07 <andythenorth> Alberth: to test your patch properly it probably does need charting
08:59:16 <Alberth> hmm, you could also write an AI, it gets news events
08:59:19 <andythenorth> otherwise it's incredibly time-consuing to test :)
08:59:34 <Alberth> if only I knew what to chart
08:59:48 <Alberth> ie what makes industries behave 'good' ?
09:00:01 <andythenorth> the principal thing is openings
09:00:05 <andythenorth> with game timestamp
09:00:36 <andythenorth> possibly also count of all industry each time the random cb runs
09:01:04 <andythenorth> possibly also a list of available types each time the random cb runs
09:01:10 <andythenorth> the one that creates the industry
09:01:19 <andythenorth> maybe cb is wrong term here
09:01:24 <Alberth> like -d industry=3 ? :)
09:01:42 <Alberth> except you don't have a time stamp
09:01:53 <andythenorth> how do I use the -d industry=3 switch?
09:02:03 <Alberth> ./openttd -d industry=3
09:02:18 * andythenorth usually runs the game with GUI :P
09:02:23 <Wolf01> gah, I managed to break the new NAS in 2 hours... firmware update gone wrong :|
09:03:04 <Alberth> I don't even have a GUI link to openttd :)
09:03:55 * andythenorth navigates inside an OS X package to find the actual binary :P
09:05:01 <andythenorth> unknown debug level 'industry=3'
09:05:33 <Alberth> then you are not running the patched version
09:26:34 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
09:35:53 <andythenorth> Alberth: it looks like the only thing missing from the debug output is the game timestamp
09:41:02 <Alberth> show_date_in_logs = false <-- that setting already exists in the openttd.cfg, apparently
09:41:37 <Rubidium> Alberth: that's real date, not in-game date
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09:55:09 <Rubidium> you're missing _date_fract!
09:55:32 <Alberth> i know, but industries don't change that quickly
09:58:38 <Alberth> is wall clock time more important than in-game time?
09:59:09 <Rubidium> for server owners it's usually wall time
09:59:20 <Rubidium> which is where this feature is primarily used for
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10:11:52 <andythenorth> Alberth: I have to go out for a bit, but I'll apply the date patch and run some tests later
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10:46:20 <Wasila> in the 'list all trains' window
10:46:34 <Wasila> There are different symbols next to the trains
10:46:50 <Wasila> Like a diagonal blue line, or a yellow circle with a green plus superimposed on it
10:46:51 <__ln__> Wasila: please don't use newline as space.
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10:47:48 <TomyLobo> do not use __ln__ as space
10:48:27 <Alberth> same as the previous icons, there are just other icons
10:49:00 <Wasila> The previous icons being the green/yellow/red light things?
10:50:19 <Wasila> So which icon equates to which? Blue line = under 2 years old?
10:54:33 <maddy> can i forbid the use of monorails and magnetrail ?
10:55:25 <Alberth> Wasila: no idea, I have an old graphics set
10:56:00 <Wasila> Sorry - I forgot. I'll try and keep it on one line in the future
10:56:20 <Alberth> practice makes perfect :)
10:56:39 <Alberth> maddy: you'll need some NewGRF for that, which one, I don't know
10:56:39 <VVG> on topic of vehicle lists, why the recent change of vl + group window of the toolbar button? took me a while to figure out where it dissapeared before i tried ctrl+click
10:58:08 <Alberth> VVG: sorry, don't know, perhaps read the commit message of that change and/or ask the dev that committed that change?
11:00:56 <VVG> Alberth: questions wasn't specifically directed at you, just the recent converstation reminded me of that :)
11:01:53 <Alberth> I should stop discussing random topics :)
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11:10:25 <Ammler> maddy: the luukland has something on bananas to do that, afaik
11:11:22 <maddy> is this copaible to db set ?
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11:16:53 <Ammler> but you should be able to didsalbe the transrapid with override
11:27:58 <VVG> jptrains switch maglev/monorail for highspeed rail. Canadian train set overrides monorail with narow gauge
11:28:44 <VVG> err, cts overrides maglev, not monorail
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11:49:01 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r20784 /trunk/src/ (debug.cpp debug.h): -Doc: Doxyment a few debug line printing functions.
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11:59:45 <JackSwagger> Hello, somebody online?
12:00:16 <JackSwagger> when i would be able to make "streetcar construction" ?
12:03:37 <asilv> you need to have newgrf that provides sreetcars, for example generic trams
12:15:32 <JackSwagger> where to get that?
12:15:40 <JackSwagger> and where to put :)
12:22:31 <JackSwagger> can i use in a save game ?
12:25:50 <asilv> possibly, but adding newgrfs to runnig game can cause some strange effects/crashes, so it is safer to start new game
12:26:44 <JackSwagger> i have an incoming of 8kk mil eur
12:35:06 <Hirundo> In general, adding a vehicle grf and typing 'resetengines' in the console works 90% of the time, but be sure to save beforehand
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12:43:21 <JackSwagger> hiru where is the console ?
12:45:55 <Hirundo> Press the key to the left of '1' (often ~)
12:46:38 <JackSwagger> i give that but no change :|
12:46:51 <JackSwagger> resetengines > not working :|
13:01:18 <Mazur> Just look at it, and print, if you like. It's 2 A4 with all the bhotkeys.
13:12:20 <SpComb> argh, wondering why my patched r20479M build wouldn't load a game saved with the same version
13:12:45 <SpComb> until I noticed that the build on the other computer was based off trunk r20497..
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14:12:53 * azaghal is thinking of implementing a "read console commands from file" option
14:18:03 <Rubidium> azaghal: keep thinking :)
14:18:43 * SmatZ is thinking of the "exec" console command
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15:26:24 <andythenorth> Alberth: testing is still unscientific, but the opening patch does seem pretty effective
15:27:41 <Rubidium> guess we need some mainframes to gather enough data for a scientific statistical research into the behaviour
15:27:51 <Rubidium> does someone have some s390s laying around?
15:28:42 <avdg> planetmaker arround here?
15:29:00 <Rubidium> if here is "the middle of the Netherlands", then yes
15:30:31 <Rubidium> otherwise it's unlikely for the coming 24 to 36 hours
15:34:28 <Xaroth> PM's down here? fuck i better hide
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16:14:18 <Zuu> Xaroth: I can assure you PM is a nice guy.
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16:38:05 <Ammler> Zuu: but he is down :-(
16:40:07 <Muxy> yop, does an call to SetWindowClassesDirty will trigger a ::Paint( ) ?
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16:42:30 <Muxy> or OnPaint() should be better ... ?
16:42:50 <TomyLobo> Qt does it that way :)
16:43:02 <TomyLobo> it's not an event, but a protected method, i guess
16:43:05 <Muxy> hum OpenTTD Speaking ofc
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16:51:45 <TrueBrain> # Too far from the sidewalk
16:53:27 <Muxy> so what should i call in order to trigger a paint event and an OnPaint() call for a window ?
16:54:27 <SmatZ> dirty windows are redrawn in one pass
16:54:50 <SmatZ> eg. you make windows dirty and they are later redrawn and screen is updated
16:55:11 <TrueBrain> # I can laugh about it
16:55:39 <Muxy> so when i need a window to be drawn, i set it dirty with SetWindowClassesDirty (need to repaint all window of my class)
16:56:09 <TrueBrain> # Haar naam is Anna en ligt hier in de sloooooott
16:59:32 <TrueBrain> # Where did I go wrong
17:11:23 <Muxy> Alberth: thx, in fact i need to invalidate some data before painting, that was my problem
17:11:35 <Alberth> the lyrics are bad, and the rhyme can be improved?
17:11:40 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: somewhere in Sweden?
17:12:26 <Alberth> Muxy: in general it is better to call invalidate on the window, so it can handle its updating of the data
17:12:50 <Alberth> SetDirty() is only intended to force a repaint, nothing else
17:13:06 <Muxy> well in my case its all the windows belonging to my class who need to be refreshed
17:13:20 <Muxy> so all window data to invalidate
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17:14:56 <Alberth> InvalidateWindowClassesData(WindowClass cls, int data) ?
17:15:18 <Muxy> some of, but does it exists ?
17:15:38 <Alberth> it is in my generated documentation :)
17:15:49 <Muxy> not the doc but hte func
17:21:38 <xahodo> Also lost the password to my flyspray account :(
17:23:06 <Alberth> there is no 'email me my pwd?'
17:23:33 <Alberth> you could do a search for the assert to check whether it is reported before
17:23:46 <Zuu> Flyspray uses the centeralized account system.
17:23:59 <Rubidium> what's the assert, what's your version and what were you doing?
17:24:18 <Zuu> Which do not yet let you chnage password, and I would be surprised if it can reset lost passwords.
17:24:36 <Rubidium> Alberth: if there isn't one, then I'd blame TrueBrain for not having finished that :)
17:24:47 <xahodo> I forgot to try on a clean game, trying now.
17:25:04 <Rubidium> clean as in unpatched?
17:25:15 <glx> Zuu: I can change my password without problems ;)
17:26:00 <Zuu> Oh, so TB has added that recently. Or do you do that by accessing the database directly?
17:30:06 <Alberth> Zuu: as always, I hack the machine, pull the user data base, change my passwd, and overwrite the old db
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17:37:21 <xahodo> I've reproduced the crash in a clean new game on r20782 on both linux and windows.
17:38:12 <xahodo> Open the station window of an oil rig, and close that window -> crash
17:39:24 <glx> xahodo: you use the wrong extra grf (not the one included in nightly)
17:45:03 <glx> (but probably not related to the assert)
17:45:15 <Rubidium> nope, not related to the assert
17:45:29 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20785 /trunk/src/station_gui.cpp: -Fix: crash when closing the station view of oilrigs (similar to r20774)
17:45:33 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20786 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
17:45:33 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:33 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
17:45:33 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: ido - 1 changes by Edwardo
17:45:33 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
17:45:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: portuguese - 6 changes by ABCRic
17:45:37 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: serbian - 1 changes by etran
17:46:01 <xahodo> thanks for the quick fix Rubidium.
17:59:36 *** Phoenix_the_II has quit IRC
18:15:05 <avdg> :p ido again with only 1 fix
18:16:21 <Rubidium> every fix helps and it looks like he started at 19:44
18:17:06 <avdg> well, hard to raise if you only have 10%
18:17:53 <avdg> I've done some translations at wordpress, and its really guessing which word should be used
18:18:57 <Rubidium> if you're a bit handy with grep and skimming source code it should be fairly easy to find out where the strings are used
18:19:02 <Rubidium> or at least most of them
18:19:33 <Rubidium> in any case, I've seen the Chinese do 1000+ strings on a day
18:19:35 <avdg> bweh, wp used an online version, what made the job even harder for programmers imo
18:20:55 <avdg> looks almost that a pro is doing it
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20:21:12 <ccfreak2k> This Lemote Yeeloong laptop is weird with its mipsel CPU, but I sort of want it.
20:21:21 <ccfreak2k> If only there was a desktop computer edition.
20:21:46 <azaghal> Rubidium: Hm... Where would the console part for dedicated server be?
20:28:18 <azaghal> You know, I'm curious about one thing - why is it all cpp files while it seems to be more of a C program?
20:31:24 <SpComb> it was originally pure C
20:31:31 <azaghal> Nvm, my bad, there's classes :)
20:31:35 <SpComb> now there's bits of C++ mixed in
20:31:36 <azaghal> Just lots of C stuff too.
20:32:39 <Alberth> C is a subset of C++ :)
20:32:59 <trebuchet> Why the addition of C++?
20:33:45 <Alberth> templates and inheritance are useful every now and then
20:34:27 <trebuchet> Hmm, I suppose it is nice for a game. I'm glad my OS kernel isn't written in it.
20:34:38 <Alberth> what is "C stuff" exactly?
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20:35:04 <trebuchet> Well nm, don't have to go.
20:35:16 <trebuchet> Alberth: I don't know what you're referencing.
20:35:19 <trebuchet> <ccfreak2k> This Lemote Yeeloong laptop is weird with its mipsel CPU, but I sort of want it.
20:35:39 <trebuchet> It has no proprietary firmware and the BIOS is FOSS.
20:35:51 <Alberth> for performance critical parts, we use simple C-like things so the compiler can optimize it well
20:35:51 <azaghal> Alberth: Well, things like fgets etc, I guess
20:35:53 <trebuchet> I have it and it is nice. The keyboard has good feedback and the form factor is right.
20:36:25 <trebuchet> I bought mine from FreedomIncluded, ccfreak2k. A US reseller, however there are others in the AU/EU/UK, I think Tekmote sells out of the neatherlands.
20:38:17 <ccfreak2k> trebuchet, have not seen that.
20:38:29 <ccfreak2k> I was just looking at the laptop at freedomincluded.
20:39:00 * Rubidium dislikes those EEE-PC style computers. They're too small for my fingers (or are the Japanese models even significantly smaller?)
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21:25:22 <GT> profiling is always fun: how is this possible? Flat profile:
21:25:22 <GT> Each sample counts as 0.01 seconds.
21:25:22 <GT> % cumulative self self total
21:25:22 <GT> time seconds seconds calls ms/call ms/call name
21:25:22 <GT> 37.00 0.37 0.37 7640 0.05 0.05 void Blitter_32bppOptimized::Draw<(BlitterMode)1>(Blitter::BlitterParams const*, ZoomLevel)
21:25:22 <GT> 13.00 0.50 0.13 73463 0.00 0.00 Blitter_32bppOptimized::Draw(Blitter::BlitterParams*, BlitterMode, ZoomLevel)
21:25:31 <azaghal> Any peculiar reason why DedicatedHandleKeyInput is called before GameLoop?
21:25:39 <azaghal> (in video/dedicated_v.cpp)
21:27:12 <GT> ie why is one Draw executed 10 times more often than the other one? Does not seem possible
21:31:00 <ccfreak2k> Wrapper or overloading?
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21:34:52 <GT> so the 2nd call should always result in the first, unless blittermode is not set, which it is
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21:38:21 <GT> else a NOT_REACHED error would be given, and I dont get that
21:51:35 <GT> maybe the optimizing compile flags confuse the profiler, I dont know if configuring with enable_profiling disables optimizing
21:55:26 <Rubidium> profiling only enables some -gprof or similar flags and sets optimising (IIRC)
21:56:04 <Rubidium> oh, the optimising thing isn't true anymore
21:56:28 <Rubidium> it just adds the -p and -pg flags to resp. CFLAGS and LDFLAGS
21:58:00 <Rubidium> GT: HandleKeyInput is called just before the gameloop to reduce "lag" betwen entered commands and handling them
21:58:41 <GT> ? you probably meant azaghal
21:58:57 <Rubidium> hmm, oh... there was someone talking in between :)
21:58:59 * TrueBrain makes scary sounds and goes to bed
22:00:20 <azaghal> Hm... I replaced stdin with _console_input stuff (FILE descriptor, CLI options etc), but for some reason, when using a fifo, I _must_ do an echo into fifo before it starts up the server :/
22:01:06 <GT> I also have great variation in profiling results (like a factor 10), makes it hard to judge the results.
22:01:28 <Rubidium> how long are you running the test for?
22:02:09 <GT> in general though, using ints in the blitter is faster than fp
22:02:33 <GT> on my config that is of course
22:03:36 <Rubidium> that explains why the profile is only about 1 second, although even that's odd
22:03:58 <Rubidium> in any case, due to the way the profiler works the results might get pretty odd indeed
22:05:32 <GT> also kind of not nice is the fact that the draw takes up 37 percent of the time
22:06:33 <GT> Do you OTTD-devs have a specific sequence of performing user actions when profiling?
22:08:40 <Rubidium> depending on what you want to test, but generally it's just loading a particular savegame
22:09:05 <Rubidium> in this case that'd be a savegame with lots of movement in the viewport
22:09:31 <Rubidium> though a relatively small savegame as you're really interested in the drawing and not the pathfinding and such
22:10:09 <azaghal> Hm... When using fifo, I have to use O_NONBLOCK for opening it.
22:10:52 <Rubidium> never used fifo, so got absolutely no clue about it
22:11:04 <azaghal> Rubidium: Would you be interested in a patch for reading console input from a file (think of fifo on *nix platforms for forking the process to background, and sending commands to it through it)?
22:13:43 <Rubidium> azaghal: personally not, but that's just because I don't really see the point in adding a slight variant of what is currently already possible
22:14:47 <glx> a wrapper script can do that already ;)
22:15:23 <azaghal> I know it can. But it'd be easier this way.
22:15:53 <azaghal> And I'd get to use start-stop-daemon in all of its glory :)
22:16:48 <Rubidium> I'd see more in dihedral's work using plain sockets to control the server
22:17:41 <Rubidium> as that works on other OSes as well and allows access remotely
22:21:18 <ABCRic> hmm... English (US) 95.7 % complete 147 untranslated <-- That doesn't sound right... :P
22:22:18 <azaghal> Rubidium: Linkies or something?
22:22:27 <ABCRic> Exactly how many English (US) translators have we got?
22:22:28 <ccfreak2k> azaghal, for a FIFO pipe that doesn't sound suprising.
22:22:37 <ccfreak2k> The call probably just pulls whatever is in the pipe.
22:22:43 <azaghal> ccfreak2k: Yes, checked the man page, it was meant like that :)
22:23:52 <Rubidium> azaghal: I fear it's primarily file:///home/rubidium/irclogs/oftc/dihedral.log
22:24:45 <azaghal> I need your IP address, username, password, and sshd setup on top of your machine with port 22 open :)
22:24:53 <Rubidium> although I've mentioned something similar quite often on the forum; people want to control their server and the current networked implementations waste a client socket
22:25:21 <Rubidium> (and a lot of bandwidth/CPU for unneeded stuff for bots)
22:25:39 <azaghal> I'd work on it, to be honest, if I had any clue at all about socket programming ;)
22:25:45 <azaghal> The closest thing I got to is Boost.Asio
22:26:38 <Rubidium> I'd also reckon that it would be fairly easy to write a simple program to connect to an OpenTTD server and "play" with it like it were a non-forked dedicated server
22:27:05 <Rubidium> in any case, ask dihedral whether he could use more help; you wouldn't need to really look at the sockets and such
22:27:37 <azaghal> Oh, I better stay clear, I'm stalling a MMORPG as it is already ;)
22:28:00 <Rubidium> it'd be primarily focussed on the actual creating/handling of packets with data
22:28:47 <Rubidium> ABCRic: from the top of my head I'd say about 1
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22:29:25 <ABCRic> Rubidium: wow, it sure is a popular language!...
22:29:32 <Rubidium> oh sorry, I lied... there are two (inactive) American translators
22:31:37 <ABCRic> and 2 active Portuguese translators :D
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