IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-09-08
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00:05:52 <VVG> now that i think about it, that assert there is useless anyway
00:06:54 <VVG> i guess i better read through atleast one c++ book to get an idea about basic things...
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07:23:34 <VVG> dihedral: yeah, departures board looks nice
07:23:57 <dihedral> planetmaker, good morning
07:27:24 <planetmaker> And why would one not be able to build it, provided the NDK and other deps are installed?
07:28:24 <planetmaker> Last time I looked it didn't seem impossible at all to build a binary using the NDK and proper source modifications on the OpenTTD side.
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07:40:02 <dihedral> planetmaker, the google page earlier used to mention requiring a rooted android phone
07:40:32 <dihedral> or at least one of the openttd attempts mentioned that - i removed the post after having a second look :-P
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07:49:30 <Eddi|zuHause> <alert nitpicker>"expect ridiculous_ly_ phrased sentences"</alert>
07:50:37 <[hta]specx> It should be seen as recursive.
07:54:48 <planetmaker> [hta]specx, while most or all ideas seem interesting ones, it also seems that separating some of the issues better into distinct separate features might be a good idea :-)
07:55:04 <planetmaker> Like claiming things has IMHO nothing to do with towns in the first place
07:56:07 <[hta]specx> As I evolve description of the idea, I probably will split the article into several focused ones
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07:56:44 <[hta]specx> claiming a town seems related to me though ;)
07:57:18 <[hta]specx> one thing I have not doen is seperating current/implemented on private servers/desired things, currently its all mixedup
07:58:10 <Eddi|zuHause> [hta]specx: we already have the concept of "exclusive transport rights"
07:58:28 <Eddi|zuHause> [hta]specx: might want to incorporate the "claim" thing there
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08:00:20 <[hta]specx> on several servers, other behaviour is added like
08:00:20 <[hta]specx> -radius for competitors unable to build anything
08:00:26 <[hta]specx> -inability to service primary industries near monopolized town
08:01:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no interest in that concept...
08:01:15 <[hta]specx> so monopolization != exclusive transport rights. monopolization more seems like exclusive business rights
08:01:52 <[hta]specx> but I think there planetmaker is right that certain parts indeed need splitting
08:02:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm interested in the town assimilation thing
08:03:09 <[hta]specx> It requires implementing centers in towns
08:03:20 <Eddi|zuHause> City (max 5000) <-- that sounds exceptionally low for a limit...
08:03:26 <dihedral> could be of interest to give the first person to build in a town exclusive transport rights for the first year
08:03:55 <dihedral> and have a server side setting, to limit how many exclusive transport rights a company may own in the course of x years
08:04:14 <[hta]specx> but it can also implemented that the assimilated town simply ceases to exist and buildings are owned by asiimilating town
08:04:41 <[hta]specx> City > 5K becomes metropolis
08:04:54 <Eddi|zuHause> "realistic" limits would be: Town: 5k-20k, city: 20k-100k, metropolis: 100k-1M, megalopolis: >1M
08:04:55 <dihedral> i think i might try to implement that
08:04:59 <[hta]specx> but most values (if not all) are arbitrary
08:05:35 <[hta]specx> Eddi: the doc is ast stated, heavily inspird on townbuildgoalservers
08:05:57 <[hta]specx> where it is quite an achievement to build towns >5K for most players
08:06:00 <Eddi|zuHause> [hta]specx: towns <5k you only find at game start
08:06:03 <[hta]specx> within 10-15 years
08:06:28 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but the game is generally adjusted for 170 years, not 15 years of gameplay
08:06:30 <[hta]specx> but a multiplier may work here
08:06:44 <[hta]specx> that seems very odd to me
08:07:00 <[hta]specx> most online networkgames do 10-20 yars
08:07:17 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but online game is only 1% of the community...
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08:08:39 <Eddi|zuHause> if 100.000 people have downloaded openttd [which is a low estimate], then 1% would mean 1000 online clients, which is by far not reached...
08:08:54 <[hta]specx> per version or per game?
08:09:10 <[hta]specx> lots of people download every version
08:09:50 <Eddi|zuHause> [note that the space is significant ;)]
08:11:05 <[hta]specx> Eddi|zuHause i'm interested in the town assimilation thing > with or without centers?
08:11:33 <Eddi|zuHause> [hta]specx: if centers is the basis of your implementation, then go that way...
08:11:44 <Eddi|zuHause> that is your decision ;)
08:12:22 <[hta]specx> they are somewhat a foundation for the complete idea
08:12:33 <Eddi|zuHause> <[hta]specx> most online networkgames do 10-20 yars <-- important lesson in game desing: there is more than just _your_ playing style
08:12:42 <[hta]specx> as i defined growth==conomic activity happening in centers
08:13:13 <[hta]specx> I didnt knew 1% is onlin
08:14:23 <VVG> Rubidium: comments on lines 246-249 in timetable_cmd.cpp seems to be wrong, as they suggest start date may be set automatically. That confused me quite a bit and made me try to find where it can be set without user input
08:14:25 <[hta]specx> btw, dihedral: exclusive transport rights at start of company seems a nogo, since you wont have money for that early on
08:14:46 <dihedral> who is talking about money??
08:17:40 <Eddi|zuHause> [hta]specx: what your suggestion is missing is a way for newgrfs to affect the town growth
08:18:01 <peter1138> I am. Send me your money.
08:18:39 <Eddi|zuHause> currently, the only thing that newgrfs can influence is the placement of houses in predefined "town zones", which are currently concentric circles around the center
08:19:10 <andythenorth> can newgrfs provide underground tracks?
08:19:29 <andythenorth> and can patches be applied by newgrf
08:19:34 * andythenorth leaves for a good day at work
08:19:45 <dihedral> peter1138, bank details?
08:20:09 <dihedral> + online banking details and security information
08:20:16 <dihedral> they are safe with me
08:20:25 <peter1138> I only accept via PayPal.
08:20:27 <dihedral> just need them for verification
08:20:32 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: in what way is underground, 3D and patching related to town growth?
08:20:37 <dihedral> PayPal details will do too
08:20:45 <dihedral> provide me with your login and password please
08:21:03 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: uhm
08:21:09 <andythenorth> I don't know, what's the correct answer?
08:21:32 <andythenorth> towngrowth would be awesome
08:21:36 <andythenorth> I should learn C++
08:21:51 <andythenorth> but all that would happen would be frosch has to rewrite all my stupid mistakes
08:22:36 <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't mean it's not appreciated ;)
08:22:47 <Eddi|zuHause> it's always easier to start from an existing basis ;)
08:26:00 <planetmaker> [hta]specx, I fail to see a difference between "claim" and "exclusive transport rights"
08:26:10 <planetmaker> To me it's a different word for (nearly) the same thing
08:26:51 <peter1138> dihedral, it's bill.gates@microsoft.com and "ilovesteve"
08:26:56 <[hta]specx> -> added onto todolist of article.
08:26:59 <dihedral> i assume 'claim' would be 'exclusive' but for as long as the company lives
08:27:21 <dihedral> which is in essence the same
08:27:49 <[hta]specx> Eddi: one thing to go from alpha to beta is to review it techwise
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08:28:51 <[hta]specx> see if ideas are somewhat feasible
08:30:54 <[hta]specx> Eddi: currently, the only thing that newgrfs can influence is the placement of houses in predefined "town zones", which are currently concentric circles around the center >> yup. Industries might help here
08:31:16 <[hta]specx> also, it wouldnt differ anything
08:31:35 <[hta]specx> same technique can be applied. Towns simply have multiple centers
08:31:53 <Rubidium> VVG: it's probably referencing some old code or something; don't have the time for really figure out what happened exactly
08:32:15 <[hta]specx> I don't know exactly how much concentric zones exist (3-4?)
08:32:54 <dihedral> [hta]specx> same technique can be applied. Towns simply have multiple centers <- in fact this alone would already have a huge impact
08:33:41 <[hta]specx> most things i describe probably turns lots of code upsidedown
08:34:33 <[hta]specx> if someone ever will care to implement it
08:35:27 <dihedral> the more you turn upside down in one document, the more people are not going to be interested in starting work
08:35:35 <dihedral> make more, smaller steps
08:35:53 <dihedral> break things up into little separate chunks
08:36:45 <[hta]specx> but first a complete vision should emerge, based on that, ready-to-eat chunks are dissectd
08:37:07 <dihedral> keep your main goal to yourself, then present little ideas
08:37:27 <dihedral> little things can be worked on without loosing sight of the goal of the little things
08:37:34 <dihedral> not everybody needs to know your entire intention
08:37:46 <[hta]specx> "keep your main goal to yourself," > that seems contrary to every piece of social advise i have gotten
08:37:52 <dihedral> however, be open to the fact, that your end goal could possibly never be reached
08:38:14 <dihedral> [hta]specx, not everybody needs to know everything to the full extent
08:38:28 <dihedral> little things however, you can 'publish' in their entirety
08:38:38 <Eddi|zuHause> suggestion for a (seemingly) easy alpha-attempt: remove the concentric town zones, but instead if growth should happen you have three choices: 1) expand the area of an existing zone, 2) promote a zone to higher level, 3) create a new center with a low level zone
08:38:54 <Eddi|zuHause> leaving the current notion of town zones in effect
08:39:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i believe there are 5 zones
08:39:10 <Eddi|zuHause> but you should probably check the code
08:39:17 <Eddi|zuHause> or the newgrf-houses specs
08:40:01 <Eddi|zuHause> having multiple centers causes problems to determine which zone a house is actually in
08:41:28 <planetmaker> there are 5 zones
08:41:45 <planetmaker> the two inner ones (zones 4+5) usually get the high-rise buildins
08:42:01 <planetmaker> zone1 is the small-village, outer sub-urb zone
08:42:08 <planetmaker> zone2 is the inner suburb zone
08:42:14 <planetmaker> and zone3 is kinda the middle
08:42:24 <[hta]specx> that almost maps 1:1 on building types
08:42:36 <planetmaker> that's where those zones come from...
08:42:47 <planetmaker> so that buildings know where they can be built
08:42:49 <[hta]specx> (but then again, building types come from those "zones"/concentric circles
08:43:15 <[hta]specx> afaik there is no exclusivity flag in newgrf, is there?
08:43:16 <planetmaker> as newgrf author I assign a house certain zones it may emerge in
08:43:20 <VVG> Rubidium: commit 18292, looks like the code in ITiM uses headway managment parts to automaticall set start dates, hence the comments.
08:43:31 <planetmaker> [hta]specx, what is an "exclusivity flag"?
08:43:39 <[hta]specx> > building is exclusive
08:43:46 <planetmaker> exclusive to what?
08:43:50 <[hta]specx> in town/game/whatever
08:44:00 <planetmaker> you mean unique? Only once?
08:44:16 <planetmaker> Also "only once per town"
08:44:27 <planetmaker> It's a matter of coding
08:44:38 <planetmaker> but all like that is possible
08:44:42 <[hta]specx> but not for games (as HQ nwgrf would require)
08:45:05 <[hta]specx> i dont mean company HQ
08:45:36 <planetmaker> then I don't understand what you mean with " but not for games (as HQ nwgrf would require)"
08:45:51 <[hta]specx> but buildings (newgrfs) designed after irl counterpart such as citibank which is a company hq, which "should " be exclusive in a game
08:48:29 <planetmaker> you can count the global number of houses of a type and disallow construction based on that
08:49:09 <planetmaker> The point is: many mod creators want rather patch OpenTTD and are not fully aware what is even already possible in terms of newgrfs
08:49:43 <[hta]specx> well, i read parts of newgrf spec several times, and i am not susprised
08:49:48 <planetmaker> I'm meanwhile even convinced that one could somewhat with high programming effort, though, create a house newgrf which makes distinctly different towns
08:50:42 <X-2> time to play OpenTTD at work :-) hehe
08:50:44 <[hta]specx> newgrf spec is detailed and informative, but loaded with assumptions the reader should know
08:50:51 <planetmaker> the problem with the newgrf approach is: it requires both, a dedicated person to drawing and a person quite dedicated to newgrf programming
08:51:04 <planetmaker> I hope it'll become more accessible when NML start to get used more frequently
08:51:24 <[hta]specx> I read some posts from ppl who did one thing (guy drawing graphic, other guy coding it)
08:51:32 <planetmaker> [hta]specx, it would be good, if you can point out the pieces which are missing and document them
08:51:32 <Eddi|zuHause> TaI was meant to provide differnt towns
08:51:36 <Rubidium> [hta]specx: the only way to get rid of those assumptions is pointing them out (and preferably fixing them)
08:52:02 <Eddi|zuHause> but i have not followed that development
08:52:03 <planetmaker> [hta]specx, even if you don't know the answers it will be helpful
08:52:08 <[hta]specx> or not bother ppl with newgrf as is possible with nml
08:52:26 <planetmaker> [hta]specx, NML is just other means to write newgrfs.
08:53:05 <[hta]specx> but makes it actually humane to code for it as it seems more verbose
08:53:20 <planetmaker> that's the whole aim of it
08:53:46 <[hta]specx> do you have a grammar laying somewhere?
08:55:01 * Rubidium thinks he has found something slower than cross-compiling OpenTTD for OSX
08:55:47 <Rubidium> compiling OpenTTD from qemu; even GRFCodec takes longer there than OpenTTD in OSX cross-compile
08:56:45 <Eddi|zuHause> [hta]specx: what do you need that for?
08:57:27 <dihedral> <X-2> time to play OpenTTD at work :-) hehe <- note: playing at work may cost you your job, it's your very own responsibility
08:57:40 <[hta]specx> generating/parsing nml using javascript (javascript? yes! javascript)
08:57:48 <X-2> dihedral: don't worry, theres nobody here atm. boss is ill :p
08:58:03 <dihedral> X-2, you have no idea what network admins know :-)
08:58:09 <dihedral> and what admins can find out
08:58:20 <X-2> dihedral: I'm one myself, this is a 2 people company hehe
08:58:21 <dihedral> if you are unsure - do not risk it
08:58:29 <[hta]specx> but i see the grammar can also be extracted from doc
08:58:58 <Eddi|zuHause> [hta]specx: the source should contain the grammar
08:59:15 <[hta]specx> I am asking because nml implementation probably uses a grammar (havent looked to source of nml)
09:01:34 <Eddi|zuHause> [hta]specx: well that's kinda the most obvious place to look...
09:05:19 <[hta]specx> cant find a grammar there though
09:06:33 <planetmaker> <[hta]specx> do you have a grammar laying somewhere? <-- of NML? It ships with documentation
09:07:32 <[hta]specx> [hta]specx but i see the grammar can also be extracted from doc
09:07:40 <[hta]specx> just like parser.py
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09:13:17 <[hta]specx> tim to get some sleep. Its late here
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09:44:00 <dihedral> anybody got some useful hints for a decent virtual/dedicated server provider?
09:51:25 <Wolf01> mine, but it's not decent nor virtual :P
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09:52:49 <dihedral> Wolf01, define 'yours' :-P
09:53:20 <Wolf01> I use it for svn and ftp for friends
09:53:43 <dihedral> if you let me place my server next to yours, it could be interesting :_P
09:53:52 <dihedral> with a slightly crocked nose :-P
09:53:57 <Wolf01> not enough plugs on the ups
09:56:05 <Wolf01> the main problem could be the dsl... only 256kbps up
09:58:02 <X-2> Well at home, not at work
09:58:13 <Eddi|zuHause> 64kbps up here...
09:58:25 <dihedral> you gotta be kidding me :-P
09:58:29 <avdg> :) 56 currently, but its way less
09:58:48 <dihedral> Wolf01, my phone has better upload than you do at home :-P
09:58:57 <dihedral> and more than your server has :-D
09:59:06 <Eddi|zuHause> hey... in the "who has the crappiest connection" games, i usually win ;)
09:59:20 <dihedral> you just lost against a phone!
09:59:46 * avdg hopes he will get 30mbps tomorrow
09:59:51 <Wolf01> I'm the only person which has been left behind by the provider in my town, my neightbours have 4-7M :P
09:59:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i lose against me going by bus...
10:00:08 <Eddi|zuHause> only the ping is awful that way ;)
10:00:36 <avdg> hmm, indeed my last day :p
10:00:37 <dihedral> ever considered something like skydsl or via cable tv?
10:01:02 <Wolf01> nah, slower is cheaper :D
10:01:28 <Wolf01> maybe not as eddi's level
10:01:31 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe next year i look into non-wire-bound communication...
10:01:44 <dihedral> i love the fact that android 2.2 lets you setup an ad-hoc 'hotspot' to share the hsdpa connection with laptops
10:01:53 <Eddi|zuHause> ... or maybe i'm moving ;)
10:03:00 <Wolf01> you reminded me the guy who put up a private wifi transmitter to use the connection of his office at home... about 25km bird fly... and he complaint it's lagging
10:04:47 <dihedral> you setup a ssid and wpa / wpa2 passphrase
10:04:57 <Wolf01> dih, my Omnia2 can do that too...
10:05:42 <dihedral> combined with an internet-flat on the phone, that is quite nice :-D
10:06:59 <Wolf01> we don't have *real* flat internet on mobiles, only x hours per week or 100 hours per month or 2gb per month
10:08:08 <Wolf01> and tethering is not always covered, most plans are for mobile navigation only
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10:51:57 <TheUros> hi .. i have a question about engine power
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10:52:28 <Eddi|zuHause> hi .. i have an answer about engine power
10:53:37 <__ln__> i have an answer about meta keys on Mac, but i'm still expecting a question about that.
10:54:26 * planetmaker has an answer about heat conductivity of porous media
10:54:44 <TheUros> i compared two trains with 15 wagons .. i made straight train line up to the hill ... first train has a diesel locomotive with 4500HP / top speed 200kmh ... seccond train had two steam power locomotives with total 4800HP with top speed 144hmh ..... i started both trains at the same train and diesel engine won .. why ? .. just beacause of speed .. HP doesn't matter ?
10:55:19 <TheUros> same train = same time
10:55:50 <planetmaker> if you have way more power than you need, then the top speed wins, of course
10:55:53 <TheUros> what is the best configuration for going up to the hill ?
10:56:26 <Eddi|zuHause> TheUros: depending on your "realistic acceleration" setting, tractive effort may play a role also
10:56:30 <planetmaker> now load your train, set the cargo weith multiplier to 20 and do that again
10:57:49 <planetmaker> and then do the same but let the trains only start on the slope and compare that to something where they're already going at their speed beforehand.
10:57:56 <TheUros> if i'm not wrong ... longer trains with two or more locomotives will accelerate faster and maybe reach top speed fully load ... one locomotive with too many wagons can't reach top speed right ?
10:58:17 <planetmaker> well. Depends ;-)
10:58:22 <planetmaker> With too many it indeed can't
10:58:36 <TheUros> how long trains you ussualy use ? .. for long distances i mean
10:58:40 <planetmaker> but 'too many' depends upon a lot of things
10:59:05 <planetmaker> anything between 2 tiles and 14 tiles
10:59:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i only had non-reaching top speed with underpowered DMUs yet...
11:00:19 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, but you didn't have then trains longer than ~10 tiles or so either
11:00:42 <planetmaker> Just recently I saw some steam engines not cope with a 7-tile train
11:00:49 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: no, but i had a VT-95 with unpowered wagon
11:01:16 <planetmaker> I don't know which rail set, though, anymore...
11:01:21 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem here is that the DBSet is not (yet) coded to adjust the weight of the wagon
11:01:28 <planetmaker> actually.... it was vanilla openttd. No newgrfs
11:02:25 <TheUros> if a engine has 4500HP ... how many tons can pull ?
11:02:39 <Eddi|zuHause> TheUros: infinite
11:03:07 <Eddi|zuHause> TheUros: the question is, at what speed, and how long will it take to reach that speed
11:03:48 <TheUros> hm ... so i can use basic steam powered locomotive and pull for example 50 fully load coal wagons ..so .. 2400 tons ?
11:03:57 <Eddi|zuHause> TheUros: HP are only relevant at high speed. at low speed, tractive effort is the limiting factor
11:04:06 <TheUros> if i use more powerfull locomotive i just reach top speed faster
11:04:26 <Eddi|zuHause> steam engines traditionally have very low tractive effort
11:07:57 <TheUros> what data is relevant when buying a train ? .. HP or top speed .. or ??
11:08:50 <dihedral> <Eddi|zuHause> hi .. i have an answer about engine power <- :-D
11:09:33 <planetmaker> TheUros, it depends upon the use you want to make of the engine
11:10:15 <planetmaker> if you use the realistic acceleration model, the parameters have the same relevance as they have in reality. More or less
11:12:47 <dihedral> you should also consider your train line - i.e. many ups 'n downs, or plain straight flat
11:13:24 * dihedral wonders about those players with 'realistic acceleration' and leveling the entire network to 1 level
11:13:36 <dihedral> what would be the point in doing such a thing
11:13:55 <Eddi|zuHause> it also depends on the grf you use. e.g. if it has wagonspeedlimits, the max speed isn't particularly important
11:14:28 <dihedral> where on earth is that orudge when you need him? :-P
11:15:31 <Eddi|zuHause> if you see orudge, maybe also ask him to up the attachment limit from 4MB to 5MB, as i have read an increasing amount of complaints that openttd zip bundles don't fit anymore
11:16:40 <dihedral> perhaps they should start removing the .svn folders before creating the zip
11:17:05 <dihedral> or not add their data folder :-P
11:17:25 <planetmaker> dihedral, still an OSX universal bundle might fail to fit the size
11:17:28 <TheUros> on how big map you ussualy play ? .. i mean alone .. not multiplayer ?
11:17:51 <dihedral> TheUros, some people do not play on their own ^^
11:17:59 <dihedral> some people don't even play at all
11:18:16 * planetmaker only plays multiplayer ;-)
11:18:34 <TheUros> so i can create perfect network
11:18:37 <planetmaker> and as such prefers map of the size of 0.25M tiles
11:18:52 <planetmaker> TheUros, I can create the perfect network also in MP ;-)
11:19:05 <TheUros> i can't ... too litle experience
11:19:22 <planetmaker> what stops you doing that in MP, but enables you to do so in SP?
11:19:26 <TheUros> where i can get some savegamo of a perfect network so i can see how is done by others ?
11:19:34 <planetmaker> PublicServerArchive
11:20:15 <TheUros> in MP some of the competitors can steal you some good routes
11:20:31 <Terkhen> play cooperative games
11:20:37 <planetmaker> depends. Not in coop games :-) ^
11:21:24 <Terkhen> I play SP because I play sparingly and I like to continue my work
11:21:26 <dihedral> only if there are competitors and if there is such a competition sense among the players
11:21:54 <planetmaker> one company. One insane network
11:22:00 <TheUros> after year 2050 you don't get eny new tech right ?
11:22:13 <planetmaker> Mostly not, though
11:24:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't seen a comprehensive "future tech" grf yet...
11:24:55 <Terkhen> I'd love a scifi setting
11:24:55 <Eddi|zuHause> and only once in my OpenTTD history i even played until i had maglev...
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11:26:48 * planetmaker 'd also like to see an elaborate SciFi or Mars theme
11:26:57 <planetmaker> Quite un-finished unfortunately
11:27:52 <Eddi|zuHause> the world-editor mars theme was a drain on the eyes...
11:28:06 <Eddi|zuHause> luckily, you could easily switch back and forth back then...
11:28:57 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a "bug", where you could stop animation in "earth" view, switch to "mars" view, and it didn't change the water colour to red
11:29:06 <Eddi|zuHause> that was slightly better ;)
11:29:27 <Terkhen> thinking about a mars theme is what made me check grfmaker a long time ago
11:30:03 <Terkhen> then I understood how complicated newgrfs really are :P
11:32:05 <Eddi|zuHause> random suggestion: make (passenger) vehicles have a "normal" capacity and an "overload" capacity, and when the "normal" capacity is exceeded, lower the station rating
11:32:40 <Eddi|zuHause> like when a bus has 30 seats and 50 standing places, the "normal" capacity would be 30, and the "overload" capacity would be 80
11:33:43 <__ln__> random suggestion[2]: make buses carry both passengers and a small amount of mail
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11:34:18 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: that won't work with bus/truck stations
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11:34:57 <__ln__> they could be adjusted
11:34:59 <dihedral> add 'luggage' to % of passengers :-P
11:35:20 <dihedral> i.e. passenger with luggage requires 2 seats in bus :-D
11:35:31 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: more important would be to allow transporting multiple types of passengers
11:35:31 <dihedral> or a bus with luggage compartment
11:35:52 <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, 1st class and 2nd class passengers? :-P
11:36:05 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: more like workers and tourists
11:36:06 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: like in the US before the 60's?
11:36:24 <dihedral> __ln__, black and white? you racist :-P
11:36:34 <Eddi|zuHause> especially tourists (outbound) and tourists (inbound)
11:37:36 <__ln__> dihedral: yes; but i didn't suggest that
11:38:11 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: congratulations for falling right into the trap :p
11:38:55 <dihedral> __ln__, you emphasized it indirectly which is sufficient
11:41:33 <__ln__> dihedral: can't help it, but that's just what first came to my mind about "multiple types of passengers".
11:42:01 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: that's telling a lot about your twisted mind...
11:43:24 <Nite> how long is one ottd year in rl time?
11:43:25 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: maybe; or maybe it's just that I returned from the US a few weeks ago and over there once again heard the story about separate sections in buses.
11:43:26 <dihedral> __ln__, that indeed sounds like a very sad story if you ask me, i do not think many people in america would like to support that type of thinking of yours - perhaps you should go to therapy
11:44:13 <dihedral> you know - people with such narrow minds can be helped, but only if they except the fact that help is needed
11:44:30 <Eddi|zuHause> might be closer to 13 minutes
11:44:31 <__ln__> dihedral: have you somehow managed to mangle my implication into the form that I would think such a thing is something that I support?
11:45:00 <SpComb> roughly 15 minutes, 13.5 to be accurate
11:45:15 <SpComb> depends on if it's a leap year or not :)
11:45:27 <Nite> is it depending on how "smooth" the game runs?
11:45:27 <dihedral> __ln__, your implication and mentioning that it was the first thing that came to your mind only underline that there might - perhaps only subconsciously - be something you may not like yourself to be true?
11:45:32 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, by 2.2 seconds ;)
11:45:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Nite: slow games are... slower...
11:45:59 <SpComb> and fastforwards faster
11:46:14 <Eddi|zuHause> and obvious cat is obvious
11:47:01 <Nite> so if the game stuters because of cpu speed the time will also run slower?
11:47:27 <Nite> well i dont guess so because tarins then "jump ahead"
11:47:32 <__ln__> dihedral: btw, 'black' is not an entirely acceptable word, and you used it.
11:47:40 <Nite> anyway i will calculate it with 13,5
11:48:29 <Nite> its not the word that is unacepptable its what you mean with it
11:48:34 <dihedral> __ln__, there is no need to now try and distract from an obvious issue in your mind, compared to a minor detail in my language
11:49:07 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: so i should say "my IRC window background is afro-american"?
11:49:27 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: that would be more appropriate, yes.
11:49:42 <dihedral> if you want to turn your irc window into an ethnical debate, yes
11:49:57 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: and "my terminal window background is euro-german"?
11:50:17 <Nite> just forget about it, say black but without offence ...
11:50:24 <__ln__> that's less unambiguous than 'caucasian'
11:50:35 <Nite> or white or red or yellow or green (?)
11:51:12 <Nite> well i'll settel to call you all purple ...
11:51:39 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: just a question: what do you call "afro-*" people which have never set foot on american soil?
11:51:44 <Nite> its just colors used for skintones - whats the hassle?
11:52:21 <Eddi|zuHause> like... afro-finns, or afro-germans?
11:53:05 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: there was this one case where a CNN-or-something reporter was reporting about South Africa, and in lack of a politely correct term to use, said that Nelson Mandela is the first african-american president of South Africa.
11:53:58 <Nite> call ppl by their names not races and you are seve ;)
11:54:10 <peter1138> Black is perfectly fine.
11:54:14 <peter1138> It's just a description.
11:54:22 <peter1138> "Blacks", on the other hand, not so good.
11:54:43 <planetmaker> except in all-blacks
11:55:09 <peter1138> That's generally a sporting team who wear black...
11:55:17 <Nite> its always HOW you say it
11:55:50 <Eddi|zuHause> the german team usually dresses white, except when the opponent's team has also a bright colour, then they wear black
11:56:06 <Nite> some ppl even manage to use the bad "N" word in a fun way ... and not offensive
11:56:15 <Eddi|zuHause> (i think that is subject to FIFA regulations)
11:56:16 <Nite> depends on situation though
11:56:42 <Eddi|zuHause> what's wrong with the word Negro?
11:57:20 <Nite> the words themselves are not guilty ...
12:04:20 <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: congratulations for falling right into the trap :p <- kinda saved myself, ey ^^
12:05:08 <dihedral> not asking the racist :-P
12:05:54 <__ln__> it's also impolite to call someone a racist, especially without evidence.
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12:33:29 <TheUros> anyone know a good technique how to put slow trains in one track and fast on another ? ... i have two railroads .. one goes in one way .. seccont in oposite way .. i have one way signals every 3 squares ... where i can i duplicate ther line so there are two tracks in each direction .. is there a way that faster trains choose one track and slower another
12:34:02 <Eddi|zuHause> you could try the nutracks grf
12:34:15 <Eddi|zuHause> it has slow and fast tracks, so the fast trains will avoid the slow tracks
12:34:29 <Eddi|zuHause> but if the fast track is blocked, they might take the slow track and go slow
12:35:23 <TheUros> hm... thanx .. i'll check it ourt
12:44:39 <orudge> [06:15:32] <Eddi|zuHause> if you see orudge, maybe also ask him to up the attachment limit from 4MB to 5MB, as i have read an increasing amount of complaints that openttd zip bundles don't fit anymore <-- it was already increased to something like 6MB
12:44:49 <orudge> but there's some limit somewhere that's making it not work
12:44:52 <orudge> I couldn't figure out what
12:45:43 <orudge> Rubidium: well, php.ini is set to 6MB or something, phpBB is set to 6MB
12:45:48 <orudge> the post max is set to something like that too
12:45:54 <orudge> but anything larger than 4MB still causes issues
12:46:05 <Rubidium> the httpd can limit it as well
12:46:27 <orudge> hmm, well, that might be it
12:47:28 <orudge> shall look into it after work
12:48:39 <planetmaker> orudge, that was an issue with our server as well; rising it there solved a similar thing
13:12:41 <TheUros> how is the openttd irc channels for beginners ?
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13:17:18 <TheUros> yers but there is another one
13:18:24 <dihedral> SmatZ, that was your chance and you wated it
13:26:07 <robotboy> TheUros, there is a general TT channel but if you ask about OpenTTD in it you will likely get redirected here
13:28:00 <dihedral> you could have pointed him #openttd.empty or something
13:28:28 <__ln__> it wouldn't be empty after he entered it
13:29:42 <dihedral> which would in fact be the point
13:29:52 <dihedral> that it would be empty before he enters it
13:31:30 <planetmaker> why would one fool with a person like that who - for a change - comes here the first time and actually asks reasonable questions?
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13:45:54 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20765 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_event_types.hpp: -Fix (r17345): AIEventCompanyAskMerger was disguised as AIEventCompanyMerger (fanioz)
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14:06:24 <Rubidium> bonjour person from the royal hill :)
14:06:47 <Belugas> funny man you are Rubidium :)
14:07:04 <Belugas> hello Rubidium LordAzamath and planetmaker :)
14:08:48 <LordAzamath> got a pm from wallyweb today
14:09:01 <LordAzamath> so wanted to check out the forums and irc after a long time
14:09:11 <LordAzamath> and can't access forums now..
14:09:20 <planetmaker> hey ho, LordAzamath
14:09:24 <planetmaker> long time no see :-)
14:09:46 <LordAzamath> how are you doing?
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14:18:42 <planetmaker> of course we do, LordAzamath ! :-)
14:18:50 <planetmaker> and we're busy as usual :-)
14:19:23 <LordAzamath> well too bad if you miss me, got a long story written in #tycoon about how I cannot log in to my forum account ;)
14:20:01 <planetmaker> but... orudge is also here. He might tell you why you cannot log-in, LordAzamath
14:20:12 <planetmaker> maybe you just forgot your PW
14:20:14 <LordAzamath> orudge is also there
14:21:32 <orudge> LordAzamath: indeed, I am
14:21:37 <orudge> I just got into the office, so give me a little bit
14:21:39 <orudge> and I can look into it
14:24:01 * r0b0tb0y pokes his head in before going downstairs
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15:04:04 <peter1138> So do we have an Android tablet port?
15:05:07 <Yexo> 2 actually, but both still in development
15:06:38 <peter1138> Anything (that could be) official?
15:22:13 <Yexo> I've no idea what state those ports are in
15:23:04 <Rubidium> peter1138: as of yet... nope
15:23:40 <Rubidium> it requires some major work, like removing exceptions (android doesn't support that) and they seem to favour removing rtti as well
15:24:35 <Rubidium> yes, there are a few dynamic casts
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15:37:01 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20766 /trunk/src/newgrf_config.cpp: -Fix [FS#4112]: action14 data was not used for NewGRFs loaded from a savegame
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16:46:46 <Chris_Booth> where is the openttd.org website?
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16:51:19 <Terkhen> works fine for me too
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17:02:16 <Chris_Booth> still i cant even ping openttd.org
17:02:38 <dihedral> Chris_Booth> where is the openttd.org website? <- NL?
17:02:45 <dihedral> leaseweb to be precise
17:03:08 <Chris_Booth> what does that have to do with it not working for me?
17:03:37 *** Lakie` is now known as Lakie
17:03:40 <dihedral> perhaps some network issue between your provider and leaseweb? :-P
17:04:10 <dihedral> however, you /could/ try opening up leaseweb.nl to see if there the issue persists
17:04:50 <planetmaker> I like that site :-)
17:05:00 <Chris_Booth> thanks planetmaker nice and helpful as always
17:05:04 <planetmaker> it really can help to find out
17:05:04 <dihedral> they should setup some java script that also runs a check just to ensure it's really down from the person viewing that site :-P
17:05:05 <Chris_Booth> now i know its just me :P
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17:06:06 <Chris_Booth> i can get on leaseweb :'(
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17:08:32 <Rubidium> leaseweb has multiple locations
17:10:09 <Chris_Booth> this suck now i need a website (everyonecanplayopenttdapartfromme.com)
17:10:38 <Rubidium> just find a better ISP
17:10:58 <Chris_Booth> not my choice its given to me by my landlords
17:11:25 <planetmaker> and / or a different DNS
17:12:23 <dihedral> Chris_Booth, or kindly ask someone to download what you want and provide you with an alternative link ;-)
17:13:24 <Chris_Booth> i wanted win 64 version or stable and r20690 if anyone would like to help
17:14:45 <Chris_Booth> and i also wanted the lastest version of opengfx and openmsx
17:16:07 <orudge> Chris_Booth: what ISP do you use?
17:16:10 <orudge> it's not Virgin, is it
17:16:20 <orudge> they're having problems with their routing
17:16:21 <Chris_Booth> orudge: it is virgin
17:16:32 <Chris_Booth> nice for them they should fix it
17:16:46 <orudge> can you access tt-forums, Chris_Booth?
17:16:52 <glx_> tried binaries.openttd.org ?
17:17:05 <Rubidium> glx_: that won't help
17:17:08 <Chris_Booth> not tryed tt-forums
17:17:08 <Rubidium> it's the same server
17:17:15 <orudge> us.binaries.openttd.org might work
17:17:18 <orudge> and/or uk.binaries.openttd.org
17:17:20 <orudge> there is a UK site, no?
17:17:27 <dihedral> Chris_Booth, all there now ;-)
17:17:30 <dihedral> feel free to pull ;-)
17:17:34 <Rubidium> and nl, de and hu IIRC
17:18:09 <Rubidium> dihedral: that's not the latest opengfx
17:18:39 <dihedral> 0.2.4 is the latest i see on bananas
17:19:34 <Rubidium> ah well, dihedral feel free to resolve Chris_Booth's error about updating OpenGFX when he starts the nightly :)
17:19:55 <dihedral> i only downloaded what i could get from binaries.openttd.org
17:20:09 <glx> at least it should not crash now :)
17:20:18 <orudge> Chris_Booth: so, did www.tt-forums.net work for you or not?
17:20:37 <Chris_Booth> tt forums worked orudge
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17:39:53 <Ammler> hmm, openttdcoop.org was also down for him?
17:43:55 <Wasila> Any programmers around?
17:45:04 <Rubidium> yes, I've seen planetmaker make some python program
17:45:18 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20767 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/ido.txt:
17:45:18 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:18 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: ido - 47 changes by Edwardo
17:45:24 * Wasila slaps CIA-2 around a bit with a large trout
17:45:46 <frosch123> wow, only ido, how rare
17:45:53 <Rubidium> why waste a perfectly good fish on a bot?
17:45:55 <Wasila> Do we know what this means: static inline uint GetInspectWindowNumber(GrfSpecFeature feature, uint index)
17:45:56 <andythenorth> I program nfo :P
17:46:03 <andythenorth> or I get frosch123 to do it :P
17:46:17 <planetmaker> Wasila: it defines a function
17:46:17 <frosch123> i do not program, i only quak
17:46:25 <andythenorth> like a duck in my view
17:46:30 <Wasila> This is the full point
17:46:30 <andythenorth> whoever heard of '
17:46:35 * planetmaker offers fly again (the old one from yesterday :-P )
17:46:35 <andythenorth> python 'frog typing'
17:46:49 <Wasila> Which function is this?
17:46:53 <andythenorth> do ducks eat flies?
17:47:02 <frosch123> Wasila: that is newgrf debug stuff
17:47:13 <Wasila> So if it was causing a crash...
17:47:21 <Wasila> I need a new newGRF set?
17:47:34 <frosch123> did you actually enable those tools?
17:47:45 <Wasila> Not as far as I'm aware...
17:48:19 * Rubidium wonders how he managed to make that function crash
17:48:34 <Rubidium> making it assert I can imagine, but even then that's highly unlikely
17:48:41 <Rubidium> unless... he's using a patched build
17:48:53 <Wasila> I know it isn't supported
17:49:09 <Wasila> I just wanted some advice as to what it actually means
17:49:21 <Rubidium> have you read the comments just in front of it?
17:50:20 <Rubidium> yes, ask andythenorth about that window :)
17:50:34 <andythenorth> it's a nice window
17:51:02 <Wasila> It gets the window number for the inspect window
17:51:05 <Wasila> given a feature and index
17:51:57 <Rubidium> and a window number is a unique identifier for a window within a specific class
17:53:36 <Wasila> What has this to do with newGRFs?
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17:55:20 <frosch123> well, if you manage to open that window, without enabling the newgrf developer tools, or even without a newgrf loaded, i am not surprised when it then also crashes :p
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17:55:24 <Rubidium> inspect windows are a feature which allows you to inspect certain aspects of NewGRFs
17:55:47 <Rubidium> frosch123: if it crashes in that function it just triggers an assert
17:55:55 <Rubidium> passing an index >= 2**24
17:56:12 <Rubidium> i.e. he's likely using huge maps or something
17:56:39 <Wasila> So it's not a problem with an actual newGRF?
18:00:06 <Alberth> the only way to confirm that is to remove all newgrfs in a new game, and let it crash again
18:04:19 <Wasila> Perhaps it was a newGRF conflict? Nothing happened with all turned off, and nothing is happening with just the newGRF I was using at the time of the crash
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18:10:51 <Alberth> the trouble is that lack of a crash does not say that much :(
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18:14:18 <Wasila> So far it's looking like third time lucky
18:16:52 <Wasila> How can it have a crash in the sourcecode?
18:19:03 <Wasila> I thought that if you compile a program
18:19:08 <Wasila> and move the bin directory
18:19:15 <Wasila> it would have a crash in the compiled program?
18:19:36 <Rubidium> what makes you think it doesn't crash in the compiled program?
18:19:46 <Wasila> I mean, how come it points to the sourcecode?
18:20:20 <Rubidium> because it explicitly adds that information into the binary so you have a clue where it crashed
18:20:30 <Rubidium> or... in your cased the assertion failed
18:21:25 <planetmaker> nope. you _know_ where it crashed
18:21:36 <Terkhen> yeah, it is easier for the person that has to solve the crash
18:21:42 <Wasila> <@Rubidium> or... in your cased the assertion failed
18:23:00 <Wasila> I can understand that the extra information is useful
18:24:55 <Wasila> Is it possible, in any way, to pin down which patch caused the crash?
18:25:39 <Rubidium> just try each patch seperately, though I've already given you a suggestion
18:25:49 <Wasila> What, playing without any GRFs?
18:26:20 <Terkhen> or reporting the error to the patchpack / patch thread
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18:27:23 <Wasila> It's a custom build :(
18:27:28 <Wasila> Sorry, Rubidium, what was your suggestion?
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18:28:15 <Terkhen> compile with patch a, try to reproduce the crash; if you can't, repeat with patch b
18:29:20 <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> Wasila: it defines a function <-- not true. it declares a function. the definition is the stuff within {}
18:30:47 <Wasila> details? Do you want me to copy the code?
18:31:27 <Wasila> Terkhen, is there no way to see which patch enabled those tools?
18:31:33 <Wasila> By looking at the .diff files?
18:31:41 <planetmaker> yes. But you have to understand it
18:31:52 <Terkhen> probably, but it won't make much sense if you don't know about the code
18:32:05 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: you can be certain that a compiler building professor WILL ask you about that exact distinction...
18:32:19 <Terkhen> it will be faster to just try all patches separately to report the crash to the correct place
18:32:19 <Wasila> Oh, so it's not just a matter of finding the right words?
18:32:21 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I'm sure about that
18:32:39 <planetmaker> But I'm also sure about that - if I'm asked that question - my answer won't matter much ;-)
18:32:46 <Terkhen> Wasila: no, the code causing the error does not have to be in the same place where the game crashes
18:33:26 <planetmaker> I won't have an examination with a professor of that kind of trade ;-)
18:34:22 <Terkhen> I already had one, I can bet he would
18:34:26 <Belugas> very interesting semantically oriented discussion :)
18:35:55 <planetmaker> Terkhen: I he would mind, sure ;-)
18:36:15 <planetmaker> And splitting words is nice ;-)
18:37:51 <Wasila> OK. I'll try removing a patch
18:38:25 <dihedral> find the line that caused the error, copy the line, grep over all patches
18:38:58 <dihedral> that is how i would do it :-P
18:39:21 <Rubidium> dihedral: obviously that'll fail in this case
18:39:32 <Rubidium> if you would've done a wee bit research
18:40:06 <Wasila> Besides, I already tried that...
18:44:39 <Wolf01> someone could suggest me a firefox extension which adds edit tools for textboxes, like find and replace and other? (if exists)
18:56:21 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20768 /trunk/src/ (10 files): -Codechange: unify send-to-depot commands
19:01:00 <Eddi|zuHause> you should have said "hei" ;)
19:01:02 <hei_> can i talk you in a query ?
19:01:15 <Ammler> you ask that in a query :-P
19:01:57 <planetmaker> The question rather is: will he also listen :-P
19:04:42 <Prof_Frink> planetmaker: Well, he might have an identified-nicks-only usermode set
19:05:09 <planetmaker> oh, there's such thing? I didn't know that :-)
19:07:10 <Zuu> Wolf01: There is an extension to FF that give you an option to edit text boxes in an external editor. When you save + quit the external editor the content will probably be copied back to the edit box.
19:07:34 <Zuu> At least I've seen one such when I looked for a Vim-plugin for firefox.
19:07:35 <Prof_Frink> Doesn't look like there is on OFTC. It's +R on blitzed.
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19:09:12 <Wolf01> Zuu, found it, but I have problems with utf8/ascii conversion, I need instruments to edit a wiki
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19:11:41 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a mode +g
19:33:22 <dihedral> <planetmaker> The question rather is: will he also listen :-P <- Ammler or hei_ :-P
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22:32:49 <[hta]specx> planetmaker still awake?
22:33:09 <DorpsGek> [hta]specx: planetmaker was last seen in #openttd 3 hours, 27 minutes, and 59 seconds ago: <planetmaker> oh, there's such thing? I didn't know that :-)
22:34:08 <[hta]specx> Can I contribute to the nml html doc somehwere?
22:34:17 <planetmaker> btw, asking directly what you want in the highlight line works even when I'm asleep
22:34:46 <planetmaker> Yes. Modify the html doc and post the changes in an issue at the bug tracker
22:34:55 <[hta]specx> you made a brainwave interface to irc?
22:35:04 <planetmaker> if you have the repository checkout, a diff would be best
22:35:21 <[hta]specx> in waht repo can i find it?
22:35:41 <[hta]specx> btw, mostly will be aeshetics
22:35:48 <planetmaker> oh... I thought you had the docs?
22:35:59 <[hta]specx> i downloaded html file from forum
22:36:07 <planetmaker> aesthetics is fine, too :-)
22:36:35 <planetmaker> hm... from forum?
22:37:30 <planetmaker> unzip that; reference.html is then found in the docs directory
22:37:38 <planetmaker> that one is the current version
22:37:49 <[hta]specx> I might add a term list with wikipedia links
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22:39:35 <planetmaker> [hta]specx: in the first link you find a tar.gz
22:39:39 <planetmaker> that's a zip archive
22:39:47 <[hta]specx> yeah, no html in there
22:39:49 <planetmaker> unpacking that should give also a doc dir
22:39:58 <planetmaker> without reference.html?! hm
22:39:58 <Ammler> the forum has also the html file from the repo tip linked
22:40:49 <[hta]specx> displays different in chrome than opera here though
22:40:50 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20769 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: move some depot flags from p2 to p1 in CmdSendVehicleToDepot
22:41:13 <planetmaker> it's a very little optimized file
22:41:36 <[hta]specx> also, i need to download the file first to view it
22:41:49 <planetmaker> hm. The repo has some css
22:41:56 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20770 /trunk/src/ (depot_gui.cpp group_gui.cpp vehicle_cmd.cpp vehicle_gui.cpp): -Codechange: move some bits around in CmdMassStartStop's parameters
22:42:35 <planetmaker> though, seems to work at least with Ammler's last link
22:42:38 <[hta]specx> is it ok to add imgs with data uri (breaking ie support)
22:42:56 <Ammler> pm, you might replace the link on the forums with it
22:43:01 <[hta]specx> data uri > max 32kb imgs in ie
22:43:09 <Ammler> we use that link on the devzone too
22:43:27 <Rubidium> you mean put binary data in the html?
22:43:28 <planetmaker> preferrably the thing is viewable with every browser, [hta]specx
22:43:57 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20771 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Add: concept of vehicle list identifiers to identify a vehicle list instead of a string of parameters
22:43:57 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20772 /trunk/src/ (11 files): -Codechange: use packed VehicleListIdentifiers as window numbers
22:43:57 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20773 /trunk/src/ (group_gui.cpp vehicle_cmd.cpp vehicle_gui.cpp vehicle_gui.h): -Codechange: use packed VehicleListIdentifiers for some commands as well
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22:44:20 <[hta]specx> Rubidium: data uri == binary data encoded base64 as text
22:44:44 <[hta]specx> so you can add anything to a standalone html file
22:45:11 <Rubidium> so it's basically a waste of bandwidth and makes maintaining the documentation harder
22:45:39 <[hta]specx> not per s waste of bandwidth
22:45:53 <[hta]specx> in certain circumstances, it might lower bandwidth usage
22:46:00 <Ammler> what kind of image would you include?
22:46:22 <Rubidium> with a properly configured server, i.e. one that sends out that those images can be cached, that'll be unlikely
22:46:25 <planetmaker> [hta]specx: so... is it official HTML 4.0 transitional?
22:46:36 <[hta]specx> mainly pictures of my cat
22:46:46 <[hta]specx> dunno from top of my head
22:47:38 <[hta]specx> Rubidium: for instance, when adding small icons, browser doesnt need to make a special request for that small image, so its faster to put it inline.
22:47:59 <planetmaker> well. Breaking eben IE8 support might not be nice
22:48:01 <Rubidium> but for the times after that it needs to fetch that icon instead of using the cached one
22:48:23 <[hta]specx> only if the icon is on other pages too, or if you hit f5 a few times
22:49:04 <[hta]specx> also, it can be faster to render, and conn to server is closed sooner, so webserver gets it a tiny bit easier
22:49:19 <[hta]specx> many onetimeused icons in html pages can make a difference though
22:49:24 <Rubidium> planetmaker: the specs seem to mention it, but that doesn't mean it's actualy part of the spec
22:49:46 <planetmaker> that's what I read on the wiki page, too ;-)
22:49:51 <Rubidium> in any case, I'd say the page would work perfectly without icons and such
22:49:52 <planetmaker> that's why I asked
22:50:19 <Rubidium> planetmaker: so assume it isn't :)
22:51:08 <[hta]specx> in any case, I'd say the page would work perfectly without icons and such > i never said it wouldn't without ;)
22:51:36 * Rubidium wonders whether base64 encoded images are the "preferred for of the work for making modifications to it"
22:52:09 <[hta]specx> it keeps all stuff in one fil
22:52:15 <planetmaker> that's not important
22:52:43 <planetmaker> it would be no issue to add a docs/images dir
22:53:01 <[hta]specx> anyways, ill see what i do. The version linked secondly is a great improvement over the one linked on the forum
22:54:27 <planetmaker> in any case the layout certainly has a lot of places which can probably be easily improved
22:54:42 <planetmaker> maybe already with a tiny bit (more) of css. or whatever
22:54:57 <planetmaker> or by giving NML a nice logo in the first place ;-)
22:55:53 <planetmaker> the css file is found in the same place as the document itself. Feel free to use that, too :-)
22:56:06 <[hta]specx> random_switch > they should add this to evry language, just for fun
22:57:39 <planetmaker> in any case... good night for now :-)
22:57:48 <planetmaker> I'm looking forward to your mods :-)
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