IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-08-30
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08:33:59 <andythenorth> I want to improve water in FIRS sandpit
08:36:48 <Ammler> how does it look with ogfx?
08:37:26 <andythenorth> Ammler: looks like the sea is in the sandpit :P
08:37:36 <andythenorth> I thought it would look better, but it's worse :o
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08:43:53 <Ammler> I think, water needs to be viewed with the animation
08:44:08 <Ammler> the current sandpit is quite "nervous"
08:44:44 <andythenorth> it's the same even with improved water
08:44:53 <andythenorth> I think it's too small for water animation
08:45:04 * andythenorth considers removing water from sand pit
08:45:07 <andythenorth> or reducing amount
08:45:10 <Ammler> maybe the current but without the "white" blinkers?
08:45:40 <Ammler> (looks like you have done that)
08:47:02 <andythenorth> I tried that. It could be made to work, but not sure it's a good idea
08:51:51 <andythenorth> Ammler: I tried also a test with the original water (I'd have to redraw later to be GPL compliant). Still looks like the sea is in the sandpit :P
08:53:36 <Ammler> the water should be very calm compared to the sea
08:53:49 <Ammler> now, it is the opposite
08:55:21 <Ammler> quiet* or whatever you call that
09:00:17 <planetmaker> it should be quite quiet ;-)
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09:31:07 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... "Doctor Who to be split into a spring and a fall season"
09:31:39 * Rubidium wonders whether to say booh or not
09:32:19 <planetmaker> moin Rubidium :-)
09:32:27 <planetmaker> and moin Eddi|zuHause :-)
09:34:21 <Eddi|zuHause> from a season-spanning-plot-with-cliffhanger point of view, it might be better to have shorter seasons
09:35:41 <Rubidium> or (*cough*) more episodes in a season
09:36:11 <Rubidium> like somewhere in the high 40s a season
09:36:12 <Eddi|zuHause> the total number of episodes per year stays the same
09:46:51 <andythenorth> making the water 'quiet' is almost impossible
09:46:58 <andythenorth> the speed of the water cycle is fixed :)
09:58:32 <Eddi|zuHause> that always sounds like "*burp*" to me...
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10:16:29 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20692 /trunk/src/network/ (network_gamelist.cpp network_gui.cpp): -Fix [FS#4055]: crash after downloading missing content
10:26:45 <andythenorth> the best solution to sandpit water is to use different colours to normal water
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10:26:50 <andythenorth> not sure if that's acceptable?
10:27:49 <planetmaker> it's acceptable, if it looks nice
10:27:59 <planetmaker> andythenorth, Or... use a re-colour sprite :-)
10:28:35 <planetmaker> re-colouring slightly the water animation.Or fire one. And use that
10:29:09 <planetmaker> what's wrong with it? ;-)
10:31:08 <andythenorth> I need to continue supporting animation
10:31:15 <andythenorth> one of the water cycles is useful
10:31:30 <andythenorth> recolor sprites == no animation
10:34:31 <andythenorth> planetmaker: how noticeable is the difference?
10:37:24 <Ammler> a sandbit in the desert looks silly :-)
10:37:40 <andythenorth> best place for it if you ask me :P
10:42:21 <Ammler> no away message please :-P
10:49:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20693 /trunk/src/ini.cpp: -Fix: use strncmp instead of memcmp for comparing strings
10:52:40 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20694 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4087]: empty newgrf presets were not selectable
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11:14:50 <planetmaker> andythenorth, the difference is noticable
11:14:55 <planetmaker> The water looks greener
11:15:23 <andythenorth> in real sand pits that's realistic. But in game...?
11:16:17 * andythenorth ponders drawing the base of the sand pit without water
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11:16:48 <planetmaker> andythenorth, animation: rain: full water and then it dries out ;-)
11:16:53 <andythenorth> at some point making the water look good is more work than drawing the ground tiles I'm trying to avoid
11:17:01 <andythenorth> could be seasonal
11:17:28 <planetmaker> what ground tiles does it need?
11:18:16 <andythenorth> some that look like a sandpit...
11:19:11 <Rubidium> take the ones from ECS
11:19:12 <planetmaker> hm... I think the only thing which is a bit irritating with it is that the pit is quite rectangular
11:19:39 <planetmaker> Otherwise I find it quite perfect as is tbh
11:21:32 <andythenorth> planetmaker: and it's ok recolored for Gravel Pit (and future Clay Pit)?
11:27:30 * andythenorth goes to shops ;)
11:27:44 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I'll try drawing it with more irregular edges later
11:27:50 <andythenorth> maybe a small island :o
11:27:51 <planetmaker> as said, I'd make the pit itself maybe a bit more irregular... ok :-)
11:28:04 <planetmaker> Or two lakes, separated by a drive way
11:28:50 <planetmaker> many many possibilities :-)
11:30:06 <jordi> Rubidium: openmsx is now accepted in unstable
11:31:45 <blathijs> jordi: I poked ftpmasters for that :-)
11:36:45 <jordi> planetmaker: regarding docs in the data dir, I think that's not the correct place
11:37:31 <jordi> from the Debian POV it's easy to resolve as we have a proper place in /usr/share/doc; I'd use that dir if you really need to install the docs via make install
11:37:50 <jordi> regarding the version in the directory:
11:37:56 <planetmaker> as every distro does its own thing there, it's kinda hard to define a proper default
11:38:09 <planetmaker> I'll expose DOCDIR for use
11:38:12 <blathijs> planetmaker: Did you see my mail on this subject this morning?
11:38:19 <planetmaker> blathijs, not yet
11:38:37 <planetmaker> seems to be still in transit...
11:38:41 <jordi> most upstream tar.gzs just don't install docs, just the necessary files to run the program
11:39:08 <blathijs> planetmaker: I rather liked your proposal to pass an "openttddir" and add /gm or /data, instead of having an "INSTALLDIR"
11:39:25 <planetmaker> :-) Ok, you get that
11:40:37 <planetmaker> jordi, in principle the user should have the choice to get the docs, though, right?
11:44:46 <jordi> planetmaker: yeah, probably defaulting to what the FHS says
11:45:24 <jordi> however, my opinion is a bit crippled by the fact that I very rarely install non-packaged software
11:45:47 <jordi> when I really need to use something that is non packaged, I find myself uploading it to debian after a while
11:46:25 <planetmaker> well... my concern is: users should have the chance to receive both, the license as well as the credits of the packages
11:46:42 <planetmaker> which is stripped, if you don't supply the readme
11:47:07 <planetmaker> which in turn is dubious wrt to "You should have received a copy of this license..."
11:47:46 <jordi> they are recieving it, it's in the tarball they unpacked
11:48:23 <jordi> in packaged form, the licence is supplied as a pointer to /usr/share/common-licences; the docs are in /usr/share/doc/openttd-openfoo
11:49:04 <jordi> now, if you ask me, I guess make install could install docs in /usr/local/share/doc/oopenttd-foo
11:49:32 <jordi> I don't think th'ats at all common in GNU packages, but I don't see it's a bad thing
11:49:36 <jordi> regarding versions in directories
11:50:09 <jordi> it's clear that package managers deal with the "renamed files left behind in the install dir" problem
11:50:28 <planetmaker> well. that can be avoided if using a non-versioned dir.
11:50:57 <jordi> for make install users, I see there's no way to avoid this, unless you teach them to do make uninstall before installing the new version, using the old tarball
11:51:18 <jordi> they will either get cruft in the /usr/share/openttd-openmsx/ dir
11:51:34 <planetmaker> opengfx and opensfx should cleanly update w/o garbage
11:51:49 <planetmaker> openmsx will indeed need a make uninstall before
11:52:02 <jordi> or they'll get even more cruft in /usr/share/openttd-openmsx-{version} if the older versions don't get removed manually
11:52:20 <jordi> so I think the problem is actually much worse with the versioned dir
11:52:38 * Rubidium only provides "make install" to make the work of packagers slightly easier :)
11:52:59 <Rubidium> make uninstall is bound to give trouble
11:54:03 <planetmaker> I don't plan to supply 'uninstall'
11:54:22 <planetmaker> I didn't have the desire nor anyone told me s/he has
11:56:17 <blathijs> I guess that anyone who's not a package maintainer should be using bananas anyway...
11:57:53 <Ammler> well, or you symlink from the repo to ~/.openttd/.. but rarly someone uses make install
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11:58:25 <Rubidium> in any case I "think" we should get a standard set of defines for all OpenTTD related packages that control installation of stuff
12:00:34 <Ammler> OPENTTDDIR sounds nice
12:01:22 <Rubidium> and some sort of unified naming
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12:01:53 <Ammler> does debian still /usr/games ?
12:02:28 <blathijs> datadir is /usr/share/games/openttd
12:02:58 <Ammler> in rpm it is /usr/share/openttd
12:03:25 <planetmaker> Rubidium, I fully agree. A common set of dirs would be nice...
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12:04:17 <planetmaker> But I guess the only somewhat constant thing is the (global) openttd dir in unix
12:05:37 <Ammler> couldn't empty dir reflect "not installing"?
12:05:48 <planetmaker> gm and data dir don't need to be specified explicitly as different IMHO
12:06:05 <planetmaker> as they're derived exactly like that
12:06:16 <planetmaker> and the gm dir should read .../gm/... not .../data/...
12:07:04 <Rubidium> Ammler: could, but then you'd need to add INSTALL_LICENSE_DIR and INSTALL_CHANGELOG_DIR instead
12:07:30 <Ammler> true, is man part of docs?
12:07:57 <Rubidium> hmm, good point... I need an INSTALL_MAN
12:08:17 <Rubidium> in RPM-world man isn't doc
12:11:45 <Rubidium> in any case, I think explicitly setting INSTALL_FOO might be more clear
12:12:01 <Rubidium> although... bad name
12:13:03 <Ammler> it is a bit LOLish nowaday to install without docs, if the docs are <1% of the whole package
12:14:35 <Rubidium> Ammler: it's "purely" to make the life of packagers easier :)
12:14:59 <Rubidium> easier packaging == faster inclusion downstream
12:17:34 <blathijs> Something else to consider: I think some source tarballs have default "Makefile.local" included (in addition to Makefile.local.sample). Could that perhaps be removed?
12:18:07 <blathijs> That will allow configuration by creating it, and cleanup by just removing it (as opposed to the current solution, which uses sed to undo changes)
12:18:08 <planetmaker> I think the posix way according to makefile manual is
12:18:30 <planetmaker> docdir, mandir, installdir, datadir destdir
12:19:49 <planetmaker> should be feasable... Though IIRC I use it to store some information usually retreived from the repo
12:19:57 <planetmaker> But that could probably be moved
12:20:27 <Ammler> maybe call it Makefile.dist?
12:21:30 <Rubidium> hmm, those paths from the make convention might be useful
12:22:14 <Rubidium> though they aren't set by default :(
12:22:38 <planetmaker> indeed they aren't
12:23:16 <Ammler> I also tried, I can mark also installed docs as doc for rpms
12:25:03 <Ammler> so the rpm specs in .devzone should work correctly
12:29:22 <blathijs> planetmaker: Heh, I know why you didn't see my email yet. I hadn't finished it :-)
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12:29:47 <blathijs> planetmaker: But I think we've discussed it here already
12:34:05 <Ammler> Rubidium: man pages _are_ docs in rpm
12:34:23 <Ammler> hmm, maybe there are differences in fedora
12:34:59 <Rubidium> Ammler: you do %doc manpage?
12:35:18 <Ammler> I do and I should (for suse)
12:39:22 <Ammler> [14:38] <darix> Ammler: it is correct. you dont have to mark man pages as %doc manually. rpm does that for you automatically
12:39:38 <Ammler> [14:39] <darix> Ammler: license/Changelog/author file you have to use %doc
12:42:41 <Ammler> so I don't need to :-)
12:44:53 <planetmaker> current version looks fine to me
12:45:18 <planetmaker> It means a bit renaming, but then things should be settled. And it follows as much posix (according to make manual) as possible
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12:55:00 <Ammler> planetmaker: how will you handle the current make install to ~/.openttd ?
12:55:48 <planetmaker> Makefile.local will always work
12:57:12 <planetmaker> Otherwise I'm undecided
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12:58:21 <Ammler> or add a new target locinstall or so
12:59:36 <Rubidium> Ammler: could you check whether the spec bit does what it's supposed to do?
13:01:12 <Ammler> I think, that if fine (make install DESTDIR=%{buildroot})
13:01:51 <Rubidium> Ammler: it's the prefix stuff I'm worried about. If it doesn't work it'll install in /usr/local/...
13:03:09 <Ammler> Rubidium: what if you set default prefix to /usr if DESTDIR is defined?
13:03:44 <Rubidium> that's not according to the makefile convention
13:04:05 <Ammler> and makefile convention does handle destdir?
13:05:24 <heffer> Rubidium: yes that would help
13:05:44 <heffer> Rubidium: in fact, that would be everything i need :D
13:07:14 <Ammler> it doesn't make sense to install something to /usr/local if you use DESTDIR, that isn't logical, but well.
13:08:18 <Rubidium> Ammler: conventions don't need to be logical
13:12:12 <Ammler> I wonder, if I need to add --prefix or if rpm would change that automatically
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13:18:45 <Ammler> Rubidium: anyway ${_prefix} -> %{_prefix}
13:19:43 <Rubidium> okay, new diff then :)
13:25:07 <Ammler> could run %{makeinstall} DESTDIR=...
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14:51:05 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20695 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Codechange: move PreventHiding to another location
14:51:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20696 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Codechange: create a new function to make sure part of the caption bar is visible when creating a window
14:52:42 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20697 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix [FS#4084]: call the new function after resizing a window so it's not possible a window becomes unmoveable
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15:24:06 <dihedral> hello Belugas, hello Brianetta
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16:52:52 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20698 /branches/1.0/ (7 files in 3 dirs):
16:52:52 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.0] -Backport from trunk:
16:52:52 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Empty newgrf presets were not selectable [FS#4087] (r20694)
16:52:52 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Desync checker checked the wrong variable (r20677)
16:52:52 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Drawing the 'OpenTTD' text in the intro game caused crashes with very low resolutions [FS#4081] (r20618)
16:52:54 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Crash when a NewGRF defined an invalid substitute type for a house and the NewGRF was removed during the game, disable houses with different size than their substitute [FS#3702] (r20611, r20610, r20609)
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17:45:43 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20699 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files): (log message trimmed)
17:45:43 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:43 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: dutch - 11 changes by habell
17:45:43 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: esperanto - 7 changes by Christopher
17:45:43 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: hungarian - 7 changes by IPG
17:45:44 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: icelandic - 25 changes by grjonib
17:45:44 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: italian - 8 changes by lorenzodv
17:58:43 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20700 /branches/1.0/src/lang/ (32 files in 2 dirs): [1.0] -Update the language files
18:04:33 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
18:17:11 * Zuu likes the "bug report" about the CluelessPlus station names :-)
18:35:00 <utdmr> hi. i'm trying to do that: 1- oil well ---[oil truck]---> port ----[oil tanker]----> port ---[oil truck]---> power plant. but my first oil truck aren't dropping it's oil to port's station. why?
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18:37:46 <Wolf01> use unload and transfer
18:38:49 <utdmr> Wolf01: how to use that?
18:39:00 <Wolf01> clicking on the butons
18:39:12 <utdmr> Wolf01: okay, looking :)
18:46:23 <Zuu> Unless you use the transfer orders, the cargo will only be unloaded on stations that accept the cargo.
18:46:46 <Zuu> A station will accept the cargo if it covers town houses/industries that in turn accept the cargo.
18:57:14 <SteelSide> at least for me the trains unload anyway
18:57:17 <SteelSide> but you don't get no money for it
19:00:08 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20701 /branches/1.0/ (11 files in 6 dirs): [1.0] -Prepare: for 1.0.4-RC1
19:01:07 <Zuu> SteelSide: IIRC there is an advanced setting that enables the behaviour that you experience.
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19:02:56 <SteelSide> well seems to be on by default, or modified in the rpm I got of it, cause I haven't poked with any setting that would be near that
19:03:07 <SteelSide> anyhow, was only a few years of iron ore profits gone :p
19:03:43 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20702 /tags/1.0.4-RC1/ (5 files in 4 dirs): -Release: 1.0.4-RC1
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19:38:15 <utdmr> Wolf01: worked :). thank you.
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20:30:55 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20703 /extra/website/general/utils/binaries.py: [Website] -Change: ignore the Debian/Ubuntu debug symbol packages on the download page (as done for MSVC Windows debug symbols)
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22:55:00 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20704 /trunk/bin/ai/regression/regression.txt: -Fix (r20658): regression got out-of-sync
23:34:53 <Jonnty> just for fun (and to start to get to know the openttd codebase) I'm working how how do add a "caution" signal - a yellow light, shown only before a red one. It's purely visual, with no effect on the train, so it's relatively easy - however, I'm finding working out where to add the sprites pretty confusing. Is there a guide for this sort of thing, or something like that?
23:41:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Jonnty: there are 8 signal types, of which 2 are unused but already have sprites. you can reuse those, and if applicable replace them in openttd.grf
23:44:12 <Jonnty> what are the unused ones?
23:45:02 <Jonnty> ah yes, I should really have searched
23:45:08 <Jonnty> i knew someone would have got there before me
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