IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-06-20
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00:21:29 <Nite_Owl> So why does the Windows Installer for 1.0.2 still report it as 1.0.2-RC1 in all of the file descriptors and during the installation ??
00:34:53 <glx> because a file has not been updated
00:36:34 <Nite_Owl> I gathered that but I was not sure if the awareness of the problem was generalized as yet
00:37:09 <glx> I just checked the commits
00:38:57 * Nite_Owl is happy to spread the word
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01:05:18 <Rubidium> argh... did I look over that for 5 times?!?
01:06:00 <Rubidium> something for tomorrow to look at
01:08:11 <Nite_Owl> as long as you know about it I am sure it will be solved in due time
01:14:04 <glx> too many things to update for each release
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06:44:25 <peter1138> last service: 29th Jun 2404
06:44:29 <peter1138> current date... 24th Jun
06:44:54 <peter1138> i shouldn't've left it running over night
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06:59:42 <andythenorth> but what does it mean? :P "Do the standard random production change as if this industry was a primary one."
07:03:09 <andythenorth> the source has the answer :)
07:33:45 <andythenorth> primary industry closing is just annoying
07:33:53 <andythenorth> that's getting removed from :|
07:45:34 <OwenS> lol, you'd already filed the ticket
08:05:26 <peter1138> meh, normal breakdown level is too much :s
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09:28:42 <peter1138> stupid servicing bollocks
09:28:50 <peter1138> last serviced 1.5 years ago
09:28:58 <peter1138> servicing interval 80%
09:29:07 <peter1138> why... have you just gone straight past a depot?
09:34:01 <Wolf01> I think the problem is in the "go non-stop to xxxxxx"
09:34:08 <Wolf01> I have the same problem
09:34:47 <peter1138> these aren't using non-stop orders
09:34:53 <Wolf01> so I always put "go to nearest depot"
09:36:21 <Wolf01> but does the non-stop order affect the maintenance of vehicles?
09:37:19 <Wolf01> if it's so I'll won't use it, if not, it's a bad behavior of vehicles
09:38:06 <andythenorth> peter1138: you're using PBS yes?
09:38:50 <Wolf01> andythenorth, pbs or not, it is the same for trains and road vehicles
09:38:53 <andythenorth> place a signal immediately in front of the depot
09:39:00 <andythenorth> otherwise trains won't find a route
09:39:39 <andythenorth> there is also a problem with RVs not going to depot, it's been in trunk for ages, but I can't reliably reproduce it
09:39:59 <Wolf01> I have it on all my saves :D
09:42:45 <andythenorth> have you reported it to flyspray?
09:43:27 <Wolf01> No, I always thought it was a difect of my play style
09:44:28 <Wolf01> I tried to change the service period from days to percentual to see if the long route was the problem, but vehicles seem to ignore depots (placed near stations and 2 or 3 of them along the route) and their reliability drops to 10% really fast, with a mean of breakdowns like 10-20 per travel, so I now put "go to nearest depot" after each load and unload and they run nicely with 1 breakdown per travel
09:45:53 <Wolf01> I thought it was so to force players to take care of their vehicles
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10:18:12 <TrueBrain> once again, tnx for the awesome party :) You really made something nice out of it :)
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11:41:20 <planetmaker> nice that you enjoyed it. I did for sure. It was awesome in my eyes- if it was for you, too, I'm quite happy :-)
11:41:36 <PeterT> planetmaker: how was the party?
11:41:48 <PeterT> did everyone already leave?
11:42:12 <planetmaker> Ammler's still here
11:42:22 <planetmaker> and yes, SmatZ, V453000 and Eddi did make it
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12:00:49 <Yexo> <TrueBrain> once again, tnx for the awesome party :) You really made something nice out of it :) <- I second that :)
12:02:07 <planetmaker> :-) thanks all of you
12:02:33 <Ammler> Was nice to links some "Heads" to the Nicks :-)
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12:09:25 <planetmaker> so train connection works, __ln__ ? :-)
12:11:03 <__ln__> yeah, not even late at all
12:11:16 <__ln__> this seems to be a train coming from Interlaken Ost
12:12:52 <__ln__> Interlaken is a nice town, btw
12:13:15 <welshdragon> Interlaken is in Switzerland, no?
12:13:22 <welshdragon> that name is familiar
12:13:37 <welshdragon> i might have been there
12:18:05 <welshdragon> ah, no. I went to Bern
12:21:37 <Yexo> yes, but this is an english-only channel
12:21:54 <iAN_> Yexo: can you compile the openttd sources?
12:22:16 <__ln__> an english-only channel with occasional speak-french-days
12:22:18 <Yexo> you'd be a lot better of asking your real question
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12:22:47 <__ln__> iAN_: i'm quite certain most of the developers indeed can compile the sources.
12:22:59 <iAN_> I'd like to have the current (1.0.2) including the infrastructure sharing pathc
12:23:14 <iAN_> but can't get it to work :(
12:23:26 <Yexo> why do you care? then it's not 1.0.2 anymore, so any recent binary including inrastructure sharing should be ok
12:25:05 <iAN_> the only available ISsharing I know off, is from december 09
12:25:08 <Yexo> openttd 1.0.2 + infrastructure sharing is no longer version 1.0.2, so you might as well apply infrastructure sharing to trunk and compile that
12:26:07 <iAN_> yes. That's what I'd like to have - trunk of 1.0.2 including the ISS (if that works)
12:26:13 <Yexo> I don't think there is anything newer
12:26:49 <Yexo> so you'll either have to update it yourself (I'm not going to help with that) or just take that version
12:27:25 <iAN_> which software (compiler) do you use? and which should I on win32?
12:28:12 <__ln__> it's way easier to compile on some other platform, btw.
12:28:18 <Yexo> presonally I use msvc to compile and cygwin for all commandline tools
12:28:47 <iAN_> pew! I just have my win-gaming platform
12:29:51 <welshdragon> there are other docs on the wiki that are helpful
12:36:23 <iAN_> required HD space for Visual C++ 2010 Express = 2.1 GB on C: and 300MB on E: ?!
12:36:55 <Yexo> yes, it's a very big install
12:37:00 <iAN_> erm .. isn't that a bit too much vor a c++ compiler?
12:37:21 <Yexo> yes (but it isn't only a c++ compiler)
12:37:33 <iAN_> but I just need a compiler
12:38:01 <Yexo> you could try just cygiwn/mingw, not sure if those can still compile openttd or what version you'd need
12:41:14 <iAN_> I'm going for open-watcom-c-win32 (80MB)
12:43:15 <iAN_> ok - installation finished
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12:49:24 <iAN_> have to restart - hope I'm back in few minutes
12:52:45 <Rubidium> does Watcom actually compile OpenTTD? It's listed as known failing to compile OpenTTD in that never read document
12:54:32 <Yexo> iAN_ has had enough advise, if he wants to try let him try (we'll hear if it works soon)
12:58:29 <Alberth> planetmaker: thanks for your efforts yesterdaym it was FUN!
12:59:16 <Alberth> andythenorth: congrats on reaching the 1K limit in so little time
12:59:29 <Alberth> andythenorth: and of course on the 0.2 release!
13:00:05 <iAN_> erm - i should have limited svn to checkout only the trunk :-(
13:00:49 <iAN_> hrmm. I spares a gigabyte on installing a small compiler ..,,
13:01:52 <iAN_> Error: Compression of svndiff data failed
13:03:16 <Alberth> downloading a copy of every branch and every release is BIG!
13:03:36 <iAN_> yeah. I killed the branch folder
13:03:45 <iAN_> have tags trunk and extras
13:03:51 <iAN_> and I'll kill the tags folder now
13:04:00 <Rubidium> tags is even huger than branches
13:04:12 <Rubidium> and extras is very very likely totally unuseful for you
13:04:34 <iAN_> I fear I need some external librarys now
13:05:09 <iAN_> couls someone please copy the link (above) to the compile-wiki page
13:05:15 <iAN_> I lost it on my last reboot :-(
13:07:49 <Yexo> "MinGW, a contraction of "Minimalist GNU for Windows", is a port of the GNU Compiler Collection (GCC), and GNU Binutils, for use in the development of native Microsoft Windows applications." <- from www.mingw.org
13:07:55 <Rubidium> the readme lists what libraries you need
13:08:21 <Rubidium> it also lists what compilers are known to fail to compile openttd
13:09:48 <TinoDidriksen> iAN_, if you want the best free compiler for Windows, stick with VC++ Express. MinGW and Cygwin should only be used for compatability testing...
13:11:02 <TinoDidriksen> Especially if you're planning on debugging. VC++'s debugger is superb.
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13:14:54 <iAN_> and openwatcom just failed
13:15:52 <TinoDidriksen> VC++ still produces the best free output, then...
13:20:30 <PeterT> woo, server updates done \o/
13:26:34 <iAN_> Unzip the folders bin, iconv, licenses, share from the SVN zip file and place into the new folder created in step 1
13:26:50 <iAN_> that means I copy these folders from my tortoise source stuff?
13:31:35 <iAN_> I have kind of a linux shell in a window now
13:32:03 <iAN_> which svn.zip is menat in the wiki-page? I don't find onw
13:33:03 <TinoDidriksen> Not svn.zip, but a zip file from the SVN repo.
13:33:25 <TinoDidriksen> You can use Tortoise to handle all the SVN stuff, then compile in the Bash shell.
13:33:48 <iAN_> okay - moving the TRUNK folder from tortoise to where?
13:34:31 <TinoDidriksen> Could also just "cd" from the shell to wherever the folder is.
13:37:28 <SmatZ> planetmaker, thanks for the party, it was great :)
13:37:39 <planetmaker> oh, you're home again :-)
13:37:46 <planetmaker> I'm happy that you enjoyed it :-)
13:38:00 <planetmaker> Thanks, Alberth, too :-)
13:38:30 <planetmaker> I just brought Ammler to the station :-)
13:38:47 <planetmaker> did Eddi still make it?
13:39:09 <iAN_> ./configure was dine - make does not work
13:39:27 <SmatZ> "does not work" is very vague
13:39:29 <planetmaker> make does not work <-- that's a quite useless error description
13:39:37 <Yexo> copy all output from make to paste.openttd.org and give a link to that here
13:39:47 <iAN_> make: *** No targets specified and no makefile found. Stop.
13:39:58 <Yexo> you executed make in the wrong directory
13:39:58 <planetmaker> then configure wasn't run
13:40:07 <Yexo> hmm, actually what planetmaker says :p
13:40:32 <iAN_> configure: error: no zlib detected
13:40:32 <iAN_> If you want to compile without zlib use --without-zlib as parameter
13:40:42 <Yexo> so ./configure didn't run "fine"
13:40:43 <planetmaker> well. follow the advice you just pasted
13:40:54 <planetmaker> but you want zlib.
13:41:01 <iAN_> ./configure --without-zlib
13:41:06 <Yexo> no zlib means no libpng right?
13:41:21 <planetmaker> at the end of a google search
13:41:33 <Yexo> there should be some installer for it for mingw
13:41:56 <planetmaker> it's all linked in the openttd devlopment site.
13:42:03 <planetmaker> you have been linked there before afaik
13:42:32 <planetmaker> might be worth reading
13:42:47 * planetmaker goes disassembling tents better :-)
13:48:01 <iAN_> compiling wget (needed to get zlib sources to be compiled later)
13:54:20 <iAN_> anti virus kills a needed file (reason virus inside)
14:06:46 <fonsinchen> someone should implement a better line clipping algorithm ... the one in GfxDrawLine is pretty stupid (and it's duplicated in GfxDrawLineUnscaled)
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14:18:16 <iAN_> the wiki page is out of date. the files are 404 on the server :(
14:19:33 <Rubidium> iAN_: might be... the problem is that those specific versions are known to work and the newer versions are known to be broken
14:20:06 <Rubidium> which kinda implies that new mingw installations might not be able to compile OpenTTD anymore because of the brokeness
14:20:51 <iAN_> but the old version does not longer work - some server-side files are missing and return 404 :(
14:24:41 <Rubidium> in any case I can't help with solutions as I don't run Windows
14:25:18 <Rubidium> so someone with mingw installation experience should retry mingw from scratch again and fix the wiki
14:29:06 <iAN_> I try to find a newer version of that zib
14:30:31 <glx> just get it from the official page
14:33:36 <glx> and newer than 1.2.3 don't compile with mingw IIRC (at least 1.2.5 failed for me)
14:37:17 <iAN_> Please use win32/Makefile.gcc instead.
14:37:35 <glx> make -f win32/Makefile.gcc
14:38:10 <glx> it compiles but install is broken
14:38:48 <iAN_> how do I compile it now?
14:40:01 <iAN_> erm - i typed make - fine
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14:41:19 <Phazorx> looking for concise answer here: is there visible performance difference between different blitters and if there is what would be their ranking and limitations?
14:41:56 <glx> visible depends on CPU :)
14:42:01 <iAN_> glx: something is still wrong - ./configure from openttd shows "zlib not found"
14:42:16 <glx> you installed it after compilation?
14:42:35 <iAN_> how should I have done that?
14:43:53 <Phazorx> glx so there are differences and in that case is there an answer somewhere to second part?
14:44:03 <Phazorx> perhaps a chart with mentioned "cpu dependencies" ?
14:44:19 <glx> 8bpp-anim is faster than any 32bpp
14:44:21 <Rubidium> Phazorx: probably 32bpp-simple < 32bpp-animated < 32bpp-optimised; 8bpp-simple < 8bpp-optimised; 32bpp-optimised < 8bpp-optimised *although* this *might* not be true with some drivers/libraries
14:44:35 <glx> ah yes optimised, not anim :)
14:44:54 <glx> and on mac 8bpp are usually slower
14:45:00 <Phazorx> and what are the sacrifices to gaing said perfromance?
14:45:28 <Rubidium> glx: but 8bpp is not always slower on mac
14:45:42 <glx> depends on hardware yes :)
14:47:17 <Mazur> iAN_, what distribution?
14:47:33 <Mazur> Fedora: yum -y install zlib
14:47:48 <Rubidium> Mazur: no distribution
14:48:01 <iAN_> I have winXPpro - running MingW32
14:48:07 <Rubidium> Mazur: and if you would've read a bit more of the context you would've known it
14:48:29 <Mazur> and assumed a unix box.
14:48:38 <iAN_> ./confgure said use win32/Makefile.gcc instead
14:48:42 <Rubidium> Mazur: and like 1 line later "please use win32/Makefile.gcc instead"
14:48:52 <iAN_> and make -f win32/Makefile.gcc did "something"
14:48:56 <Rubidium> that would kinda imply it isn't quite unix
14:49:36 <Mazur> yes, only that was not the line I saw. I.e. you're right.
14:49:38 <glx> iAN_: make -f ... compiled it, but install is broken (make install fails)
14:51:51 <elho> an articulated part in openttd (wrt trains) is a locomotive vehicle without power, like a tender, right?
14:52:21 <Phazorx> iAN_: also, when you get to it - don't forget to run it as ./configure --prefix-dir=/mingw
14:53:16 <elho> and a powered wagon is a non-locomotive vehicle that has power despite it is no locomotive?
14:53:17 <Phazorx> glx/rubi and i noticed almost twice the difference between 32bpp anim and 8bpp opt
14:53:26 <iAN_> I unzipped the file from the url
14:53:38 <iAN_> now I have a lib and include dir
14:54:13 <Phazorx> iAN_: you run proper msys+mingw right?
14:54:40 <glx> iAN_: as said, extract in mingw root dir
14:54:56 <glx> so move lib and include in mingw root
14:56:48 <iAN_> ok - thx for help. zlib works
14:57:01 <iAN_> now - liblzo2 was not detected or disabled
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15:08:13 <planetmaker> you can ignore liblzo2
15:10:28 <glx> then you'll need libpng, libfreetype, ...
15:11:03 <iAN_> first waiting to get liblzo2 compiled :-)
15:12:47 <planetmaker> well. libpng is kinda needed. You can nearly do without the rest
15:13:16 <glx> freetype is nice to have too
15:14:18 <Eddi|zuHause> [20.06.2010 15:38] <planetmaker> did Eddi still make it? <-- yes, i did make it, everything went perfect
15:15:01 <Eddi|zuHause> arrived at 11:15, which fit perfectly into the 30 minute buffer that i planned when i gave the 11:00 figure ;)
15:15:26 <Eddi|zuHause> so took about 1:45 plus refueling
15:16:11 <Eddi|zuHause> the google estimate for the route we took was 2:20
15:16:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i told you it's lying :p
15:16:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i can never tell...
15:17:11 <Eddi|zuHause> although we did go rather 160 than 130
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15:20:45 <Yexo> planetmaker: do you have a test grf for FS#3886 ?
15:21:45 <planetmaker> well, I don't have a variable I can query.
15:22:00 <planetmaker> But the current swedish rails query param1 for the date for depot changes
15:22:09 <planetmaker> that can be changed to that new variable
15:22:32 <planetmaker> I'll happily test :-)
15:22:50 <Yexo> var[0x43] <- that is valid nml in a switch-block
15:24:13 <planetmaker> Let's see. Give me 10 minutes for compiling everything, OpenTTD + grf
15:24:22 <planetmaker> I need to update openttd anyway :-)
15:24:31 <Yexo> I can test, just found the relevant lines in swedishrails
15:30:01 <fjb> planetmaker: Thanks for the nice party yesterday.
15:33:14 <fjb> What kind of strange person was that in the cellar?
15:34:56 <planetmaker> I have no clue. Never seen before
15:35:13 <Mazur> Hm, sounds like drinkies time to me.
15:35:32 <planetmaker> Kinda mumbling some other person's name she's been search for...
15:35:35 <fjb> Did you find out what she wanted there?
15:35:50 <planetmaker> suspecting that the person lived there.
15:36:02 <planetmaker> But then I'd not go through the back door but use the door bell...
15:36:13 <planetmaker> And I haven't heart that name. Not living here
15:37:03 <planetmaker> Yexo: I wasn't successful
15:37:11 <planetmaker> hm... wait: days?
15:37:25 <planetmaker> then 1965 is always too low ;-)
15:37:38 <fjb> I see most people got home well.
15:38:01 <fjb> Even the crazy dutch. :-)
15:38:09 <iAN_> okay - new question: checking revision... no detection
15:38:18 <iAN_> WARNING: there is a great chance you desync
15:38:21 <planetmaker> that's nice, Yexo :-)
15:38:37 <Yexo> don't play multiplayer, or fix the revision detection
15:38:49 <Yexo> you can do the latter by installing svn/hg in mingw
15:38:51 <iAN_> how do i fix a "revision detecting"?
15:39:15 <PeterT> ./configure --revision=rXXXXX
15:39:30 <Yexo> PeterT: that'd not a fix, it's a workaround
15:39:57 <Yexo> iAN_: only if you really compiled 1.0.2 (which I doubt)
15:40:19 <iAN_> i used tortoise svn to obtain /trunk
15:40:44 <Yexo> iAN_: trunk is not 1.0.2
15:40:59 <Yexo> trunk is the latest development, currently last trunk is r20001
15:41:04 <PeterT> iAN_: 1.0.2 !...Yexo beat me to it
15:41:23 <DorpsGek> PeterT: Commit by rubidium :: r20000 /tags/1.0.2 (9 files in 4 dirs) (2010-06-19 16:44:18 UTC)
15:41:24 <DorpsGek> PeterT: -Release: 1.0.2
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15:45:14 <iAN_> so I'm going to download branch 1.0.2?
15:46:07 <Yexo> there is normally no reason to compile a release version unless you don't want to use the precompiled binaries for some reason
15:46:33 <iAN_> I want to have 1.0.2 including the infra-structure-sharing patch
15:47:00 <Yexo> 1.0.2 + infrastructure sharing is no longer 1.0.2, so you might as well use trunk+infrastructure sharing
15:47:33 <Yexo> did you ever program anything before?
15:47:34 <iAN_> well .. 1.0.2 seemed to me a public final release
15:47:48 <iAN_> I have no idea what "new bugs" or "half" features are in the trunk
15:48:07 <theholyduck> iAN_, trunks are GENERALLY quite stable
15:48:30 <Yexo> iAN_: at this moment it's the other way around, a few minor bugs are solved in trunk but were not backported to 1.0.2
15:48:51 <iAN_> okay - configure on the trunk went fine
15:49:05 <iAN_> do i have to configure again after applying the patch?
15:49:20 <planetmaker> but could you successfully build unpatched trunk?
15:49:25 <planetmaker> if not: try that first
15:49:39 <theholyduck> Yexo, at MOST moments in most projects
15:49:53 <theholyduck> bugs are found and fixed much earlier in svn/git/trunk
15:50:44 <Yexo> theholyduck: yes, but I've also seen several projects where half-finished features were committed to trunk, leaving it in a broken state
15:50:47 <iAN_> I get some E:/msys/home/iAN/openttd/findversion.sh: svn: command not found messages
15:51:01 <theholyduck> Yexo, i've never seen that happen in years :P
15:51:14 <theholyduck> most people only commit new features to trunk when they atleast work
15:51:22 <planetmaker> Yexo: it should work with both you patches, to openttd + swedishrails that I get the old depots before 1960 and the new ones after...
15:51:40 <planetmaker> what's the obvious thing I do wrong, if I don't see that but always modern ones?
15:52:00 <theholyduck> Yexo, what can happen is when they commit a complete feature based on the submissions of idiots :P
15:52:29 <theholyduck> i remember mplayer trunk being broken for weeks due to a security patch that fixed sevral important security holes, while also breaking mplayer completely
15:52:32 <Yexo> planetmaker: dunno, does "info" on the tiles show the biuld date correctly?
15:53:04 <Yexo> planetmaker: and there are 2 blocks in swedishrails that have to be changed
15:53:24 <planetmaker> yes, both electric and normal
15:53:44 <planetmaker> yes, I do have a build date for depots... Hm... let's see.
15:53:51 <iAN_> somehow missing zlib ans lzo
15:53:52 <iAN_> E:/msys/home/iAN/openttd/src/crashlog.cpp:167:23: lzo/lzo1x.h: No such file or directory
15:53:52 <iAN_> E:/msys/home/iAN/openttd/src/crashlog.cpp:174:19: zlib.h: No such file or directory
15:54:09 <planetmaker> why do I have modern ones in 1964 when I set the -date(1965,1,1)? hm...
15:54:11 <theholyduck> building on windows is always such effort
15:54:31 <theholyduck> iAN_, is there no premade builds with infrastructure sharing on?
15:54:58 <theholyduck> compiling in linux is easy enough, any depdendencies you want is at your fingertips.
15:55:03 <iAN_> I didn'T find a version newer than december 09
15:55:29 <Alberth> theholyduck: yeah, ain't it nice, new users always pick the platform most difficult for development :p
15:55:47 <iAN_> I want to PLAY - not to compile it
15:56:01 <theholyduck> heck, on debian and i figure ubuntu, you can always just run apt-get build-dep openttd
15:56:11 <theholyduck> and all the dependencies are installed automatically
15:56:16 <theholyduck> and you can compile at will
15:56:41 <Alberth> and anything missing is installed in less than a minute :)
16:00:11 <iAN_> where can I get a windows binary with iss patch?
16:00:33 <Eddi|zuHause> didn't you say you already had one?
16:00:48 <iAN_> lacking a lot of nice functions
16:01:01 <iAN_> I want those "new" functions
16:01:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i want 3000 euro from you
16:01:13 <Alberth> iAN_: in the iss thread, if it exists
16:01:14 <planetmaker> iAN_: newer binaries for IS2 are only available at the end of a compile session
16:01:49 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: most likely too cheap :)
16:01:49 <iAN_> I tried hard to compile - but faild
16:02:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: probably ;)
16:02:21 <elho> Alberth: indeed, that's not enough to touch windows with a ten feet pole :P
16:02:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: but isn't that how the current economy works? you make an estimate way too low, and then correct it upwards to factor x5?
16:03:19 <Alberth> elho: just the work to update the patch is already a lot of work
16:03:40 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, the "touching windows" part is trivial ;)
16:03:47 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: oh sorry, then the estimate sounds completely reasonable :)
16:04:12 <planetmaker> Yexo: yes, it works :-)
16:04:22 <planetmaker> Don't ask me why I was too stupid ;-)
16:04:30 <planetmaker> there's 4 switch statements :-)
16:04:44 <Yexo> good to hear it works :)
16:05:34 <Alberth> iAN_: getting it to work is difficult. Give up today, and try again in a few days
16:05:43 <Alberth> eventually, you will succeed
16:06:29 <Alberth> and afterwards, it will also be completely clear why it fails now.
16:07:05 <planetmaker> Yexo: NML: "src/railtypes.pnml", line 199: Parameters of date() should be compile-time constants <-- hehe
16:07:17 <planetmaker> it gives immediately other desired ;-)
16:07:28 <planetmaker> switch(FEAT_RAILTYPES, SELF, depot_electric_year_switch_snow, max(var[0x43] - date(param[1], 1, 1), 0)) {
16:08:11 <planetmaker> of course there's an easy way around this
16:08:58 <Yexo> planetmaker: non-const parameters in date() is very tricky
16:10:37 <elho> is tractive effort in the engines data arbitrarily choosen or calculated from power and mass?
16:10:43 <Eddi|zuHause> isn't there such a thing as a "calculated" varaction 2?
16:10:58 <planetmaker> elho: it's neither. It's defined by the newgrf
16:11:45 <elho> planetmaker: that is what i meant by arbitrary, as in arbitrarily chosen by the grf author :)
16:11:53 <Eddi|zuHause> elho: most newgrf sets try to take the values of real vehicles
16:12:45 <elho> so then the accelaration formula for non-maglev trains on the wiki makes no sense. the game calculates based on tractive effort, however the formula on the wiki does not mention that at all
16:13:05 <Alberth> nah, the program picks an aribtrary value that matches the value give by the grf author :p
16:13:20 <Eddi|zuHause> elho: which exact formula do you mean? there are two acceleration models in the game
16:13:33 <Eddi|zuHause> the simple (original) one does not use tractive effort at all
16:13:51 <Eddi|zuHause> the complex ("realistic") one does.
16:14:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and wikis tend to have problems because information may be based on urban legends (like "goods make cities grow")
16:14:45 <elho> those. and i'm talking about realistic accel. as does that page claim to do and also seems to do (for the maglev and slope resistance parts at least)
16:14:46 <Eddi|zuHause> or are just outdated
16:17:27 <Eddi|zuHause> elho: the real formula is likely in src/ground_vehicle.cpp if you want to fix the wiki
16:17:31 <elho> right. therefore i'm destililng up my own formula from the source. but i currently (as it is both what i'm interested in and the simpler case) only looking at maglevs, where te does not matter.
16:18:49 <Eddi|zuHause> elho: if (mode == AS_ACCEL && force > max_te) force = max_te; <-- that's probably the part that's missing from the wiki
16:19:17 <elho> i already partly fixed the formula in the wiki by adding effect of downhill vehicles (it only had uphill)
16:19:20 <VVG> Congratulations with 20k and new release!
16:20:55 <Eddi|zuHause> elho: likely it's also missing the setting for slope steepness
16:21:05 <Eddi|zuHause> which is fairly new
16:21:15 <elho> Eddi|zuHause: plus the stuff before to calculate max_te :) but as said, i first try to get my head around the maglev case. i just wondered, that if maybe te was a parameter that could be deduced from others, the wiki could still be correct. but it apparently is not.
16:21:49 <elho> Eddi|zuHause: yes it assumes the default, the 60 in there is 20*3% slope steepness
16:22:18 <elho> (and 20 * train_slope_steepness is what the source uses)
16:22:56 <Eddi|zuHause> elho: TE is the resulting force derived from power and speed, max_te is the newgrf-derived value for wheel on track resistance
16:23:31 <Eddi|zuHause> elho: yes, the wiki uses *60, which equals 3% slope (the default value)
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16:24:57 <elho> i still wonder what articulated vehicles and poweredwagons exactly are, power and max_te calculations depend on these details...
16:24:59 <Eddi|zuHause> elho: the physics problem here is that TE may never exceed max_te
16:25:59 <elho> my guess is articulated vehicle == unpowered engine part, eg. a tender, poweredwagon == powered non-engine
16:26:05 <Eddi|zuHause> elho: that basically reduces to having multiple engines in the train
16:26:52 <Yexo> elho: an articulated vehicle is a vehicle with multiple parts
16:27:28 <Yexo> a powered wagon is a wagon that has some newgrf properties set so it gives extra hp to the front engine (or something like that)
16:27:32 <elho> yes, i grasp the real world idea of te. but i do not draw any conclusions from real life physics to game mechanics ;)
16:29:23 <Eddi|zuHause> there used to be a bug in here, don't know if that was addressed meanwihle: the fprce <= max_te check must be done for each engine individually, not for the whole train
16:30:25 <elho> from my perspective that won't be a bug, just a fact how the game works ;)
16:30:28 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise you can add a high power low max_te engine and low power high max_te engine into one train, and they add up
16:30:38 <Eddi|zuHause> which is physicalic nonsense
16:33:54 <elho> Yexo: ok for poweredwagons, but articulated vehicles... i thought articulated vehicle and multihead engine were two different things?
16:34:21 <Yexo> they are, the parts of an articulated vehicle can't be split
16:34:53 <elho> ah. so that is also some newgfx special thing then?
16:35:15 <Yexo> there are no articulated vehicles in the default set
16:35:45 <elho> (except for generictramset, i never used any newgfx stuff, just playing with the stock vehicles)
16:38:49 <andythenorth> how was the r20k party?
16:39:02 <elho> so a 3 vehicle engine would be three articulated vehicles with 1/3 power each, whereas a stock game 2 vehicle engine is 2 multihead vehicles with full power (as the game has a special case to divide multihead power by 2)
16:40:44 <Yexo> so a 3 vehicle engine would be three articulated vehicles with 1/3 power each <- I'd say it's one articulated vehicle with 2 extra parts, but that depends on the context
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16:44:33 <elho> the context i'm interested in would be in game representation in the linked list of Train objects (vehicles)
16:45:14 <Alberth> several trains, I think
16:45:22 <Yexo> in that caes indeed 3 vehicles (=Train objects)
16:45:46 <Alberth> hmm, I am wrong. Thanks for correcting me Yexo
16:46:15 <elho> ok, seems i got it then :)
16:52:51 <Alberth> Doxygen says "'Train' is either a loco or a wagon. " which is different than what I intended to say
16:55:09 <elho> yeah, it actually is a single vehicle, despite the name. the same kind of misnomer that did not allow me to understand articulated vehicle in all consequence ;)
16:55:17 <fjb> andythenorth: It was a great party. We had a lot of fun and as much to eat.
16:57:44 <elho> Eddi|zuHause: regarding the physical nonsense: well it is a game no train design simulator and there is lots of unrealistic nonsense in the game i care more about ;)
16:59:24 <planetmaker> andythenorth: when there's a next one you should also join the party :-) was very much fun :-)
17:00:41 <elho> did you have a model railway at your party? ;P
17:01:51 <elho> in fact, you ought to hold such parties in that restaurant where the drinks and food is delivered by a model railway to the tables :D
17:02:09 <planetmaker> no: not sure anyone looked at. yes: there's the toy railway made from wood I played 20 years ago with
17:03:30 <elho> probably good noone looked at it, they'd still be telling you how to optimize your tracklayout from back then etc. *g*
17:10:43 <VVG> andythenorth: i have a few mines i montlhy deliver eng supplies to, but don't actually transport any production from. And they still increase their production. Is that a normal behavior?
17:11:04 <andythenorth> VVG: currently yes.
17:11:11 <andythenorth> I don't think I'll bother to change that
17:18:55 * andythenorth concludes two things
17:19:19 <andythenorth> (1) I don't like the primary industry production decreases I've added to FIRS
17:19:36 <andythenorth> (2) industry closure behaviour really does suck. My map is just about empty
17:22:32 <peter1138> hurr, i should make a note of when industries close down...
17:22:41 <peter1138> last serviced: 2464
17:23:38 <elho> its a fake operated by the mafia :P
17:25:52 <peter1138> hmm, autorenew failed
17:26:03 <peter1138> because the train couldn't get to all stations
17:26:11 <VVG> is there a limit of how many industry of the same type there can be on a map?
17:28:30 <elho> hmm, GetAcceleration() using speed in mph whereas most other places seem to use kph does not make things straight forward either :P
17:31:46 <planetmaker> [19:26] <VVG> is there a limit of how many industry of the same type there can be on a map? <-- the answer is a clear "maybe"
17:32:16 <planetmaker> default industries are not limited - except by the total amount of industries
17:32:28 <planetmaker> newgrf industries may be limited, I guess
17:32:29 <glx> you can have a limit of 1 per town
17:32:43 * andythenorth needs to bite the bullet and figure out closure / production change parameters
17:32:54 <andythenorth> planetmaker ^ want to help
17:32:59 <planetmaker> I never have that setting on. Is it actually default, glx?
17:33:12 <planetmaker> hey andythenorth. Nice changelog to FIRS 0.2 :-)
17:33:26 <andythenorth> I can do the closure varact 2 easy enough, it's the actual settings that need thought
17:33:36 <andythenorth> and how to provide them as simple parameters
17:33:53 <planetmaker> please elaborate :-)
17:34:16 <planetmaker> you don't want them to close (at all?) or only more slowly?
17:34:33 <planetmaker> Or close until there are XX / 512^2 at minimum
17:34:54 <andythenorth> I'll make a list of desirable options
17:35:22 <planetmaker> maybe give them 100 years w/o service, then close
17:36:00 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: 'ln' is not a defined function.
17:36:15 <planetmaker> @calc log(0.5,2.7)
17:36:15 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: -0.697856474456
17:40:10 <planetmaker> @calc exp(-0.6978567/50)
17:40:10 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 0.986139815226
17:40:38 <planetmaker> andythenorth: 50% of the industries closing in 50 years means an annual closure probablility of 1.4%
17:41:07 <planetmaker> x = exp( ln(0.5) / years)
17:41:27 <andythenorth> controlling for that is *really* difficult
17:41:30 <planetmaker> actually... 1-x = ...
17:41:43 <planetmaker> andythenorth: monthly?
17:42:07 <andythenorth> it should work as you described by law of large numbers
17:42:10 <planetmaker> dunno, is that possible?
17:42:25 <andythenorth> but of course random is random :)
17:42:38 <planetmaker> andythenorth: and then you can activate a minimum left-over
17:42:49 <planetmaker> don't close, if last or 2nd last
17:42:50 <andythenorth> I'm trying to make a list of what options should be available to player
17:43:14 <planetmaker> only one concerning industry closures:
17:43:45 <planetmaker> value is in permille closure per year
17:43:59 <planetmaker> thus 14 would be close half in 50 years
17:44:19 <planetmaker> and define to keep the last industry
17:44:32 <planetmaker> if a player doesn't chose to service it, it may close
17:45:33 <planetmaker> the above formula is also easily modified to monthly closure callbacks
17:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r20002 /trunk/src/lang/ (traditional_chinese.txt turkish.txt unfinished/irish.txt):
17:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 13 changes by josesun
17:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: irish - 160 changes by tem
17:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: turkish - 12 changes by niw3
17:46:21 <planetmaker> maybe it's better given in 1/10000 then instead of 1/1000
17:46:46 <planetmaker> no need for exponential functions, just randomness ensures that :-)
17:48:06 <andythenorth> I need to figure out what parameter options players get and how they are set
17:49:09 <planetmaker> andythenorth: just half the probability, if only ENSP are supplied
17:49:35 <planetmaker> you'd have closure handled by the same thing then
17:50:17 <planetmaker> oh, mis-read production/closure
17:50:32 <planetmaker> but still it'd make sense :-)
17:51:00 <planetmaker> and production change chances with/out ENSP can be hard coded
17:51:35 <planetmaker> scenario mode might be a separate parameter as it then controls opening industries.
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17:52:34 <planetmaker> or... allow value -1 to the closure probability parameter: -1 then means: no closures, no openings --> effective scenario mode
17:55:08 <andythenorth> planetmaker: maybe a separate param for scenario mode
17:55:19 <andythenorth> as there will also be secondary behaviour to consider
17:55:55 <andythenorth> is there any benefit to offering control over primary / secondary closure separately?
18:00:09 <planetmaker> possibly. But I wouldn't bother now
18:00:24 <planetmaker> *someone* *somewhen* will always find it good ;-)
18:00:40 <andythenorth> personally I dislike primary closure, but I'm fine with secondary closure
18:02:17 <VVG> i actually liked that a bunch of unserviced industries closed down, i couldn't to connect them all at start and now i can't keep up with newly opened :)
18:03:14 <andythenorth> VVG: secondary or primary
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18:04:49 <andythenorth> what's better: one parameter with a complicated bit mask, or more parameters?
18:05:00 <VVG> primary, i try to have large stations at secondaries, so it is one of a kind of secondary i keep
18:05:14 <planetmaker> but depends upon "complicated"
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18:06:10 <VVG> calcutaling is harded than deciding on/off, so it is not dependant on defenition of complicated :)
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18:10:50 <VVG> what is the maximum production of a mine?
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18:11:51 <argon> a proposal, make shared order a default behaviour when cloning vehicles, that would save so much time :)
18:13:03 <elho> argon: just press ctrl when cloning :)
18:13:23 <argon> hey that works? thanks!
18:14:12 <elho> ctrl does good things to almost any action in the game ;)
18:14:58 <VVG> i actually have a proposal too
18:15:30 <VVG> make a new option at "manage list" dropdown menu -> "create vehicle group from current list"
18:17:58 <argon> thanks elho :) that was going to be my next question, if it's in the wiki and if someone should add it, you're a mindreader
18:18:34 <andythenorth> VVG: max production is something like 1080t or 2048t, I forget :)
18:19:21 <VVG> what should i look for in nfo if i decode FIRS grf to check it?
18:19:27 * elho just wished ctrl while building bridges would not build the last built but the latest available type
18:20:00 <andythenorth> VVG the chances of you working it out from FIRS code alone are low, unless you also understand the game's production logis
18:20:42 <andythenorth> however, you'll find the code much easier to read here, should you wish to try :)
18:20:44 <planetmaker> VVG: besides: if you can have the commented source code: why de-compile it?
18:21:15 <planetmaker> but then: I grant you: it's not easy...
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18:21:25 <andythenorth> VVG: for a coal mine, it's the same as the default game apparently
18:21:33 <andythenorth> I haven't set any production multiplier
18:26:36 <planetmaker> andythenorth: why a new issue for that? :-)
18:26:52 <andythenorth> the old parameter ticket got really baffling
18:27:30 <planetmaker> I'd make default=0, if somewhat sensible
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18:28:12 <planetmaker> that way if one wants to change only a particular parameter one can savely enter
18:28:56 <andythenorth> all the things for value = 0 are what I'd choose as defaults
18:29:15 <andythenorth> maybe not all my personal preference
18:29:30 <planetmaker> and currently #3 and #4 seem like duplication to 90% extend
18:30:16 <andythenorth> value 4 = no openings?
18:30:22 <planetmaker> then I'd actually code #3 as bit switch. And just ^
18:30:22 <andythenorth> and it's a map so add them up
18:30:34 <planetmaker> just don't tell it's a bit switch. Just give the value
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18:31:13 <planetmaker> but it might make internal handling easier :-)
18:31:15 * andythenorth doesn't understand the difference between bit switches and bit maps / masks
18:31:24 <planetmaker> andythenorth: there's none
18:31:42 <planetmaker> a bit setting is a set of on/off-switches
18:31:47 <andythenorth> so we call those a bit switch or bit map
18:31:50 <planetmaker> and then you can mask-out the one you're interested in
18:31:59 <planetmaker> IIRC that's the same, yes
18:32:27 <andythenorth> So can we agree a term for something that isn't a bit switch, i.e. there is no addition - like radio buttons.
18:32:28 <planetmaker> actually... you mask-out everything else except what you're interested in ;-)
18:32:58 <andythenorth> I'll amend the ticket
18:33:38 <planetmaker> well. a single bit-switch is also a setting... but only a boolean one. A setting which has 0...7 is... well... a normal setting :-)
18:34:52 <andythenorth> planetmaker: updated the ticket
18:35:01 <andythenorth> afk for a bit, but your thoughts would be useful :)
18:35:34 <VVG> hee. i though that maybe there is just simple to read and understand value of maximum production :)
18:36:39 <VVG> it's just i noticed one of mine coal mines have been at 1k production for sometime now without growing more, hence i wondered if i hit the maximum
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18:41:23 <frosch123> hello planetmaker, hello andythenorth
18:41:28 <planetmaker> Ammler and __ln__ won't be.
18:44:51 <Yexo> plural of aircraft is aircraft, right? (without s at the end)
18:46:09 <frosch123> hmm, i should have answered "ye"
18:52:30 <frosch123> oh, i remember, i was instructed to extend the highlight rules
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19:13:14 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r20003 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 2 dirs): -Feature [FS#3886]: [NewGRF] var 43 depot build date for railtypes
19:15:34 <planetmaker> is there a possibility by the user to toggle visibility of rail fences?
19:16:25 <planetmaker> hm, yes. full details
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19:17:05 <planetmaker> I'm just toying the idea to change rail fences into hedges or something like that
19:17:18 <planetmaker> which would then possibly be of a higher height than fences
19:17:29 <planetmaker> thus it might be important to be able to switch them off
19:17:50 <Yexo> just make that another parameter for that to switch between fences/hedges
19:18:11 <planetmaker> but ingame on a MP server one might need it while building or so
19:18:34 <planetmaker> if there's a hedge covering the tracks, I'd like to see them dispite
19:27:35 <peter1138> so are you making some rail types?
19:32:08 <planetmaker> swedish rails on bananas
19:35:19 <elho> planetmaker: will fast trains in fall make the leaves come off the hedges when passing? ;P
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19:35:48 <planetmaker> elho: I cannot detect trains ;-)
19:36:34 <planetmaker> but I try to just use the available options as good as possible
19:36:47 <planetmaker> Without changing the track properties that is.
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20:00:53 <planetmaker> peter1138: it's really a nice feature
20:01:05 <planetmaker> and it's quite fun considering the possibilities it gives
20:01:29 <planetmaker> especially these nice things like making them landscape aware...
20:01:45 <planetmaker> snowy depots, snowy fences... nice level crossings
20:02:05 <planetmaker> it just looks so much better
20:02:36 <peter1138> planetmaker, let me know what features need adding ;)
20:03:51 <elho> hmm, so a diagonal tile is 4/3 the distance to travel of a straight one, but space wise it is only half? i must be missing something... :o
20:04:09 <peter1138> you're assuming physics etc applies :)
20:04:47 <elho> peter1138: not really. but maybe i'm wrong in assuming a connection between gfx and logics ;)
20:06:30 <planetmaker> peter1138: a link to the station gfx: has roof yes/no
20:06:44 <planetmaker> so that I can draw snowy tracks or not for stations
20:06:54 <planetmaker> snow under the roofs looks strange
20:07:24 <planetmaker> :-) that's why it's a feature request ;-)
20:08:05 <planetmaker> with depots I can provide my own graphics where I over-paint the tracks with the depot graphics
20:08:10 <planetmaker> but with stations I cannot
20:08:56 <elho> but i'm failling to see the two vehicle on a straight tile thing
20:10:53 <elho> TrainLocoHandler calls TrainController once for every 192 speed on a straight tile resp. every 256 speed on a diagonal tile.
20:11:23 <elho> TrainController AIUI advances a vehicle one tile.
20:16:30 <elho> aha, GetNewVehiclePos only moves by one pixel. should have known logics in (former) commercial games are contrieved enough to suddenly factor in the gfx :P
20:17:14 <Rubidium> they're not moved by pixels
20:17:58 <Rubidium> tiles are just subdivided into a 16x16 grid on which a vehicle can be
20:18:28 <Rubidium> or actually the whole map has that "grid" for positioning vehicles
20:22:20 <__ln__> East Side Gallery [x], Fernsehturm [x], Alexanderplatz [x], U-bahn [x]
20:23:42 <planetmaker> checkpoint charlie
20:24:49 <planetmaker> the latter is a matter of "sight seeing" vs. "getting a feeling how it looks off the beaten track"
20:25:33 <__ln__> i think my hostel is quite much in the kreuzberg area
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20:29:46 <planetmaker> walkd from "Unter den Linden through the Brandenburg gate to 'Straße des 17 Juli', through Tiergarten, past Siegersäule to the Kurfürstendamm
20:30:57 <elho> Rubidium: i see. that subdiivision is TILE_SIZE which is != TILE_PIXELS :)
20:31:49 <elho> but then the comment "Get position information of a vehicle when moving one pixel in the direction it is facing" for GetNewVehiclePos() is misleading
20:37:24 <Zuu> doh, irritated sweds on vacation are annoying. Had some of those on the train from Hamburg to copenhagen.
20:37:54 <Zuu> Thanks for a nice party :-)
20:43:36 * Zuu wonders if there is any reason apart from comersial reasons why you on a 45 min ferry are not allowed to stay in the train, while it is perfectly fine on a over-night ferry.
20:44:45 <Rubidium> "safety" as in the train + ferry combination are not "certified" for having people on board of the train
20:44:51 <Zuu> Sure, it might be safer to be at the upper deck, but how is it more un-safe to be at the lower deck at one fery than the other.
20:45:30 <Zuu> Could be different certificated ferries/trains though.
20:46:55 <elho> with only a 45min ride, too few people would leave the train and buy stuff in the restaurant of the ferry if they were not forced to :P
20:54:47 <Zuu> hey pm, on the platform of the train I was going to take there arrived a direct train to Havover which I went on and took me to Hanover. No idea if it was the usual way or a detour as I haven't traveled there before. ^^
20:56:30 <planetmaker> interesting. But it might have travelled via Hildesheim - the route taken alternatively
20:57:44 <Zuu> It said on the displays that the trains to hanover would be about 10-20 minutes delayed.
20:58:22 <planetmaker> yeah... that's the length of the detour :-)
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21:58:06 * Zuu suggests serving audigex a 3-4 year old cake
21:59:58 <Zuu> (in response to his r20k topic suggestion)
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