IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-06-12
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00:02:31 <Eddi|zuHause> ... they crashed trains again
00:02:45 <Eddi|zuHause> this is AdmiralAI v22, i believe
00:05:51 <ccfreak2k> Eddi|zuHause, corner case?
00:06:07 <elho> .oO( AI perfection is reached, when it makes human errors )
00:06:28 <Eddi|zuHause> ccfreak2k: i have no idea how it happens
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00:22:15 <Kovensky> elho: how do you know if the "human error" is of the AI itself or of the human that wrote the AI? :P
01:20:41 <Eddi|zuHause> hmhm... game suddenly got unplayably slow
01:27:00 <ccfreak2k> Now that 1.0.1 is around, I wonder if I should port my gamecube patch and release it.
01:30:44 <ccfreak2k> I just need to figure out how to diff two directories.
01:37:46 <Eddi|zuHause> a) with diff, of course. and b) why do you need to do that anyway? just us a versioning system...
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01:42:05 <ccfreak2k> Versoning for -one- patch?
01:53:27 <ccfreak2k> Too late, the patch is uploaded.
01:58:45 <ccfreak2k> Whoops, I screwed up.
01:58:50 <ccfreak2k> The patch didn't include new files.
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03:41:19 <theholyduck> can the game include some sort of gigant 2x45 degree corner = BAD sign when you build them?
03:41:39 <theholyduck> every time i play public it sadens me to see trains slow down because the builders don't realize its slow
03:42:29 <theholyduck> sure it should be easy to disable
03:42:38 <theholyduck> but just to tell those people who keep doing it to stop doing it
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06:58:57 * andythenorth wonders which other FIRS industries should cluster. Farms now do.
07:50:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i had a question for you yesterday, but i forgot...
07:51:53 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, and the other question you likely didn't read: if FMSP is supposed to be transported in tanker wagons, would you mind adding "liquid" cargo class to it?
07:54:00 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, yes, i remember: in industries like the steel mill, where the production ratio depends on number of incoming cargos, it would be useful to show the current production ratio (e.g. "6t per 8t delivered, current cargos: coal, scrap metal")
08:11:56 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: yes to the production ratio text
08:13:07 <andythenorth> not sure about liquid class
08:14:24 <andythenorth> NARS 2 already permits FMSP in tank wagons
08:14:55 <andythenorth> probably allows express cargo
08:18:47 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: do you want FMSP in tank wagons, or are you just following what I said last time we discussed it?
08:34:06 * andythenorth ponders farms and snow line
08:42:00 * andythenorth ponders a maximum distance between (for example) sheep farm and textile mill
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10:10:40 <andythenorth> testing a non-existent var in action 2 doesn't seem to blow up the gam
10:11:42 <frosch123> it just picks the first case to chain to
10:11:58 <andythenorth> it appears to be picking the default
10:12:03 <andythenorth> although I could be wrong
10:13:13 <andythenorth> Terkhen: FWIW, I've updated FIRS clustering behaviour
10:13:25 <andythenorth> now does all farms, and player can build anywhere (no clustering when funding)
10:14:57 <andythenorth> I broke farms for the scenario editor :P
10:16:22 <andythenorth> need to check B3 as well :|
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10:23:17 <Vaxy-Admin> I do have a problem with a savegame on my server, maybe someone could help me :-)
10:23:58 <Vaxy-Admin> Somebody destroyed the land on my european heightmap with extreme terraforming
10:24:34 <Vaxy-Admin> On my latest autosaves the land is destroyed too and the last manual save is too old.
10:24:51 <Vaxy-Admin> Is there a chance to get the heightmap on the save game restored?
10:25:38 <aditsu> would it be possible to copy the heights from the old save?
10:25:43 <aditsu> (I am a player on Vaxy's server)
10:27:14 <Vaxy-Admin> Maybe there's something in the forums
10:27:26 <SpComb> theoretically, *everything* is possible, but..
10:28:03 <aditsu> ok, is the file format documented somewhere?
10:28:12 <SpComb> in the source code, presumeably
10:29:02 <Vaxy-Admin> here is something about editing a savegame
10:29:44 <aditsu> Vaxy-Admin: it says something about uncompressed format
10:30:17 <Vaxy-Admin> yes, I would be able to get the uncompressed format.
10:30:22 <aditsu> btw, what kind of compression is that anyway?
10:31:01 <Alberth> the bigger problem is how to get the heights back imho
10:31:36 <aditsu> copy them from the old save..
10:32:35 <Vaxy-Admin> I think that's not that easy because the recovered map has to fit onto the acutal cities, railways etc.
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10:33:28 <Alberth> that's the problem I think, ie how to reset the land height without breaking the game data
10:33:36 <Vaxy-Admin> so when someone built a track on a flat land and I will recover the heightmap where there will be a mountain on that location for example..
10:33:37 <aditsu> Vaxy-Admin: ok, you handle the file format, I handle the heights :)
10:34:07 <Alberth> just call the right piece of C code to load a map, that's easy
10:34:49 <Alberth> you could even write a AI to do the height resetting
10:35:02 <aditsu> the first step is to restore the heights as if doing it by hand (so some places that have something built won't change)
10:35:20 <aditsu> that will fix maybe 80-90%
10:35:53 <Vaxy-Admin> the other 10% are "collateral damage"? ;-)
10:36:33 <Alberth> first step is to have the original heights in a usable format, I think
10:36:42 <aditsu> for the rest, there are some options.. straight rails can be updated
10:37:15 <Vaxy-Admin> ok, so I will try to get the uncompressed format
10:37:33 <Alberth> no need, just load the game using the code of the program
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10:38:50 <Alberth> ie reverse engineering the file format, and writing a decoder and an encoder is a LOT more work, I think
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10:39:36 <aditsu> well, hacking the main C code is not that nice either
10:39:50 <aditsu> especially seeing it for the first time
10:40:02 <Vaxy-Admin> umm... I'm pretty new to the OpenTTD Code, too
10:40:23 * Alberth ponders about an AI that resets the height of each tile
10:40:24 <aditsu> let me check out from svn..
10:40:52 <Vaxy-Admin> Such an AI would be great :D
10:41:25 <Alberth> it would be quite useful to have such an AI, I think
10:41:39 <frosch123> the heights are in the MAPT chunk, but only in 4 bits of the bytes
10:41:47 <frosch123> the other four bits should not be changed
10:42:19 <Vaxy-Admin> but what happens when theres a mismatch with the tracks and the heights after the recover?
10:42:38 <frosch123> it will assert somewhen
10:42:42 <Vaxy-Admin> ie when a streeet doesn't fit to the new land anymore
10:43:26 <frosch123> the other four bits in MAPT tell you the type of a tile, so you could limit the modifications to clear land, trees and water
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10:43:49 <frosch123> but then you have to make sure that the heightdifference of neighboured corners does not exceed 1 :)
10:44:45 <Vaxy-Admin> ah ok, thanks.. What would happen, If I copy/paste the heights of the original map to the savegame?
10:44:52 <aditsu> yes I plan to take care of all that stuff
10:45:05 <aditsu> um.. what are AIs written in? also C?
10:45:17 <Alberth> Vaxy-Admin: hope that there is no train underground suddenly :)
10:45:22 <Alberth> aditsu: nope, in squirrel
10:45:35 <frosch123> if you copy the complete MAPT chunk it will crash on load, if you copy only the 4 height bits per tile, it will assert shortly after load
10:46:32 <aditsu> check for validity and throw an exception... or whatever that is in C
10:46:56 <frosch123> assert is a special type of crash :)
10:47:25 <Vaxy-Admin> ah ... an exception?
10:47:46 <Alberth> yes, when an condition is violated
10:48:25 <aditsu> ooh the format is actually documented, quite nicely
10:52:06 <Vaxy-Admin> It is complicated to program an AI?
10:52:18 <ccfreak2k> aditsu, IIRC Squirrel is a scripting language with C-like syntax.
10:52:27 <aditsu> I'm checking it out now
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10:54:34 <frosch123> hmm, maybe you could generate an ai from the heightmap which does the terraforming
10:54:57 <frosch123> then you do not need to mess with the save, just load the game in singleplayer, start the ai, cheat money to it, and be done
10:55:37 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r19965 /trunk/src/video/sdl_v.cpp: -Cleanup: Use size of buffer, not magic number.
10:56:01 <aditsu> how do you raise/lower a vertex? can't find the right class
10:56:39 <Vaxy-Admin> that sounds great.. using the terraform-tools of the game would consider the existing infrastructe of the game
10:57:23 <frosch123> Vaxy-Admin: you could even start that ai regulary on a server, and it continualy terraforms back what player change :p
10:58:33 <Vaxy-Admin> I will patch the server to reduce extreme terraforming, ie every player is able to change one or two fields at once
10:58:47 <Alberth> frosch123: I was thinking that too :)
10:59:41 <frosch123> oh, sorry, alberth. missed that :)
11:00:37 <Alberth> would be quite effective against terra-formers
11:02:06 <frosch123> well, you cannot get back the water everywhere
11:03:33 <Vaxy-Admin> Just applying the AI-Patch does let just one problem unresolved: When a player extremely terraforms the map and then builds streets or something on the flat ground
11:04:05 <Vaxy-Admin> well the company could be just deleted and then let the AI do the rest ..
11:05:10 <Vaxy-Admin> I read that there is already a terraform-limitation patch out there on the forums
11:07:36 <Vaxy-Admin> Maybe that would be something for the offical version? So that you are able to set in the openttd.cfg how many terraforming is allowed per month
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11:13:39 <aditsu> ok I got TestAI running
11:13:55 <aditsu> now to make it do something..
11:16:25 <aditsu> Vaxy-Admin: if this AI thing works, then I think it will be a much better solution than messing with the save files
11:17:00 <Vaxy-Admin> Yes, you are right. If it would be ok for you, I would let the AI run on the server regularly
11:17:30 <aditsu> first we have to figure out how it's gonna work :p
11:19:28 <aditsu> ooh I made it raise some land
11:19:56 <aditsu> gotta figure out that slope parameter..
11:20:24 <Alberth> town authorities will not be very happy with that AI
11:21:24 <aditsu> will they stop it from modifying land at some point?
11:22:21 <aditsu> hm.. raising/lowering land is quite weird, it doesn't operate on corners as in the game, but on tiles
11:22:23 <Vaxy-Admin> I never got any message from the town authorities while terraforming
11:22:28 <frosch123> Alberth: the ai could also replant the old trees :p
11:23:02 <aditsu> although.. it looks like I can define which corners of the tile to change
11:23:17 <frosch123> aditsu: just pass a fixed corner (e.g. north corner) and it operates on corners
11:23:20 <Alberth> Vaxy-Admin: do some heavy terra forming around a city :)
11:24:44 <frosch123> well, assuming the ai only is active when another player terraformed before, towns would be happy about the ais
11:24:55 <frosch123> terraforming does not hurt, only tree cutting
11:24:59 <Vaxy-Admin> I did that on some cities on my scenario (Needed flat land for my big stations). I just got a very bad reputation (building a station wasn't possible then) but I was able to terraform further
11:25:04 <frosch123> but they were already cut when the ais gets active
11:25:35 <frosch123> aditsu: no, you can only load ai libraries and such
11:25:51 <frosch123> and you can store some stuff in the savegame
11:26:16 <aditsu> well, how can I store the good height map?
11:26:27 <aditsu> (before starting the AI)
11:27:17 <Vaxy-Admin> do you need the original savegame or scenario?
11:27:20 <frosch123> either you could start the ai on gamestart, and it then saves the whole map. but in this case you would need to generate an ai which from the heightmap
11:27:56 <aditsu> the AI has to run on the bad map
11:28:32 <frosch123> you can also write a second ai, which you run on the good map, which then prints the height information to console (via ai debug stuff)
11:28:47 <frosch123> you can then put that output into the source of the ai running on the bad map
11:29:39 <aditsu> Vaxy-Admin: I think the last good save would be useful
11:30:05 <aditsu> frosch123: no other I/O option? that's a bit nasty..
11:30:16 <Vaxy-Admin> The original scenario would recover the most possible
11:30:46 <frosch123> no, ais can only print to console and write to the savegame
11:30:47 <Vaxy-Admin> even not needed terraforms from the "good" players ;)
11:31:29 <aditsu> I did quite a bit of terraforming too, but not in a damaging way
11:31:31 <Vaxy-Admin> read / print console and write savegame.... No more I/O functions?
11:32:18 <frosch123> no, you cannot access ~/.bashrc and store rm -rf ~ there
11:33:26 <aditsu> frosch123: at least there could be one predefined file that the AI can read/write
11:33:41 <frosch123> yes, the current savegame :)
11:33:45 <Vaxy-Admin> so we need one OpenTTD Instance that runs the original savegame and writes (X-Y Position, Map-Info) to the console;
11:34:00 <aditsu> um.. separate from the savegame
11:34:23 <aditsu> Vaxy-Admin: yes, I'm working on it
11:35:34 <Vaxy-Admin> so on the 2024*2024 map there will be 4 096 576 console lines needed to recover the game once?
11:36:13 <Vaxy-Admin> assuming that the information of every square will be posted on one line
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11:37:48 <frosch123> maybe patch ottd then
11:37:55 <frosch123> but that makes it less generic
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11:43:18 <aditsu> frosch123: how can I copy the log output?
11:44:29 <frosch123> start openttd with -d ai=9 or so
11:44:56 <aditsu> I did debug_level ai=5 and I can see the log messages but can't copy
11:44:59 <frosch123> ai output is then also pritned to normal console
11:46:53 <aditsu> frosch123: with debug_level it doesn't print to the console, I'll try with -d
11:48:11 <aditsu> frosch123: do I need a special type of log messages?
11:48:23 <Vaxy-Admin> AILog.Info(some_integer + "");
11:49:00 <aditsu> I tried AILog.Info(some_integer), with log level 5 and 9
11:49:41 <frosch123> maybe it needs a debug build, but actually that would surprise me
11:50:57 <Vaxy-Admin> Did you try AILog.Error? Just for testing purpose
11:52:00 <aditsu> tried now, it changed the color, but still nothing in the console
11:52:13 <aditsu> recompiling it with the debug option..
11:53:59 <aditsu> ok, I see a new button
11:54:04 <aditsu> but still nothing in the console..
11:55:08 <Vaxy-Admin> I'm just installing squirrel..
11:55:30 <aditsu> Vaxy-Admin: isn't it included with openttd?
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11:55:54 <Vaxy-Admin> erm..... well.... xD
11:56:32 <Vaxy-Admin> I'm totally new to that. I downloaded squirrel and compiled it now.
11:59:03 <Vaxy-Admin> Do I need to compile the AI with OpenTTD?
11:59:26 <Vaxy-Admin> together with the OpenTTD Source?
12:01:19 <aditsu> Vaxy-Admin: you just need to write the AI code and run it
12:01:49 <aditsu> no compilation involved
12:06:22 <aditsu> still can't get any output to console :(
12:06:51 <Vaxy-Admin> ah ok my test-AI is working
12:07:05 <Vaxy-Admin> Do you look in the cmd or ingame console?
12:07:14 <aditsu> ooh I just found something
12:09:27 <aditsu> Vaxy-Admin: thanks, I can see output in the "console" console :)
12:09:51 <Vaxy-Admin> you mean the console in OpenTTD?
12:10:26 <aditsu> the stdout of the process
12:10:37 <aditsu> but now I got it in the ingame console too!
12:10:57 <aditsu> erm.. still can't copy it from there
12:10:57 <Vaxy-Admin> we just need the commands on the stdout
12:11:29 <Vaxy-Admin> The second OpenTTD Instance is only able to read the real console afaik
12:11:43 <Vaxy-Admin> not the ingame console of the first OpenTTD instance
12:11:44 <aditsu> I don't know if it can even do that
12:11:50 <aditsu> but we can hardcode the map into the AI code
12:12:02 <Vaxy-Admin> frosch said that this should be possible
12:13:07 <Vaxy-Admin> well, that was his advise to write two AIs communicating via console each together
12:13:47 <Alberth> I'd save the heights in a 2D array, and add that as literal value in the source code of the 2nd AI
12:14:26 <Alberth> although 2^24 values is not nice....
12:15:16 <Alberth> hmm, you could split the data in pieces, and load a part in an AI
12:15:32 <aditsu> Vaxy-Admin: can you quote him?
12:15:54 <aditsu> Alberth: oh, multiple AIs?
12:16:28 <Alberth> that would be an option, but then you still have 2^24 heights in memory, so it won't save you anything
12:16:30 <Vaxy-Admin> Doesn't that makes tons of load on the cpu?
12:16:50 <Alberth> one AI would be simpler in that case
12:16:53 <aditsu> according to the docs, pauses are added automatically
12:17:36 <aditsu> I think it's 2^22 values
12:18:06 <Vaxy-Admin> with the hardcoded heights it wouldn't be very flexible
12:21:04 <Vaxy-Admin> 4 Million Datasets... How many bytes does just one dataset have? like 8?
12:22:40 <Vaxy-Admin> really? Just 4 Bits?
12:23:12 <aditsu> not sure how to store it efficiently in the code though
12:23:18 <Vaxy-Admin> so that array-size would be around 2 MB?
12:23:43 <Alberth> look for an unsigned data type
12:24:25 <aditsu> hm, it's stderr not stdout
12:24:28 <Vaxy-Admin> byte square[y][x] that saves 2 neighbour squares?
12:24:51 <Alberth> something like that yeah
12:25:23 <Alberth> for experimenting you may want to do something smaller first
12:27:26 <aditsu> I'm getting some -1 height values
12:27:59 <Vaxy-Admin> on what coordinates?
12:28:48 <aditsu> not sure, let me print them too
12:31:06 <aditsu> whenever one of the coordinates is 255 or 256
12:31:38 <aditsu> should I only go up to n-2?
12:32:33 <aditsu> oh, actually, does 0 work? I wonder
12:32:34 <Vaxy-Admin> go up just n-1 nor?
12:33:23 <aditsu> I guess there are 255 tiles (256 vertices)
12:34:10 <aditsu> so why does it only let me go from 1 to 254?
12:34:53 <Vaxy-Admin> maybe the edges aren't accessable
12:36:43 <Vaxy-Admin> I do have another problem. By starting "openttd -g test.sav -d" (In test.sav the AIs are alread there) I don't get any actions from my AIs?
12:37:16 <Vaxy-Admin> Did I missed something?
12:37:37 <Vaxy-Admin> how do you start your AIs, aditsu? By new gams or do you load a savegame?
12:38:55 <aditsu> Vaxy-Admin: I'm testing with new games, and start_ai in the console
12:39:22 <aditsu> I think my "save map" AI is ready
12:40:57 <aditsu> then I should write the "fix map" AI generator
12:41:08 <aditsu> well, the height map part
12:41:37 <Vaxy-Admin> would you show me some lines of your generated map?
12:46:49 <aditsu> right now I only have the debug output
12:51:52 <Vaxy-Admin> do you read the tileinformation with TileIndex?
12:55:49 <glx> TileIndex is just an index :)
12:56:43 <Vaxy-Admin> Yes.. Now I want to read the height of every tile. Looks like that AITile::GetCornerHeight is the right function therefor
12:57:47 <aditsu> Vaxy-Admin: I already did that, want my code?
12:58:21 <glx> there's also GetMinHeight and GetMaxHeight
13:00:14 <Vaxy-Admin> yeah ok, I nearly had the same already :)
13:00:15 <Vaxy-Admin> for (local y = 1; y < mapY; y++)
13:00:15 <Vaxy-Admin> for (local x = 1; x < mapX; x++)
13:00:15 <Vaxy-Admin> local actTile = AIMap.GetTileIndex(x,y);
13:00:17 <Vaxy-Admin> AILog.Info("Tile: " + actTile);
13:05:51 <aditsu> ok I wrote the code generator
13:06:04 <aditsu> now for the logic to fix the map...
13:06:06 <Vaxy-Admin> something like this? AILog.Info("tile["+y+"][+"x"+] = .....
13:06:29 <Vaxy-Admin> and then get the arrayvalues for all tiles in the console output
13:07:05 <aditsu> Vaxy-Admin: no, squirrel has array literals
13:07:25 <aditsu> glx: somebody messed up Vaxy's map with extensive terraforming
13:07:45 <aditsu> and he has an old save
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13:08:27 <aditsu> we're trying to fix it (at least partly) without losing all that was built in the meantime
13:08:37 <Vaxy-Admin> and aditsu just doesn't want to loose his trillions of dollars ;-)
13:09:03 <aditsu> it's not about the money, but the time I spent building routes
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13:15:23 <Alberth> glx: building an AI that does 'reverse' terra forming :)
13:22:10 <aditsu> The AI 'FixAI' returned a string from GetShortName() which is not four characaters. Unable to load the AI.
13:25:27 <aditsu> hmm it doesn't do anything
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13:26:16 <VVG> i fiddled with grf codec and seems i made a newgrf that crashes ottd. should i report it, or just provide necessary steps here for any interested party or just forget it?
13:34:55 <Alberth> best option is to repair the newgrf, I think
13:36:00 <peter1138> ottd shouldn't crash :D
13:37:48 <aditsu> I was calling Raise and Lower with 0 slope
13:38:36 <Vaxy-Admin> so there is water on the whole map? :D
13:39:15 <aditsu> no, it means it makes no change
13:40:04 <aditsu> yes it works now, but it ran out of money quite quickly
13:40:14 <Vaxy-Admin> money should be no problem ;-)
13:40:45 <Vaxy-Admin> on my server, I would give him enough money
13:41:03 <VVG> original grf isn't broken, it's mine modification that makes ottd crash, when buying trains
13:41:59 <Vaxy-Admin> transfer money from my company to the AI
13:44:17 <Vaxy-Admin> damn, I just could give my money to other player, not comapnies
13:44:37 <Vaxy-Admin> lets see if there is another command to transfer money
13:45:03 <aditsu> somebody mentioned cheating
13:45:36 <Vaxy-Admin> would be ok, too. By editing the savegamefile?
13:46:40 <aditsu> Vaxy-Admin: oh there's an option to allow sending money to companies
13:47:06 <Vaxy-Admin> to companies or to player?
13:47:31 <Vaxy-Admin> I thought, you can ony transfer money to other PLAYERS. An AI is not handled as a player
13:47:54 <aditsu> but doesn't say how to send
13:48:00 <Vaxy-Admin> the easiest way would be
13:48:11 <Alberth> I think: start as single player, cheat to become the AI, cheat to give money
13:48:12 <Vaxy-Admin> to load the game into single-player
13:48:32 <aditsu> Alberth: how do you cheat?
13:49:59 <Alberth> cheat to become yourself again, finally :)
13:50:08 <Vaxy-Admin> btw. whats the money limit?
13:50:27 <aditsu> then the AI has to wait for a while before doing the work
13:50:42 <aditsu> so it gives you time to cheat and add money
13:50:45 <Vaxy-Admin> yes, do the work every year or so
13:51:02 <Vaxy-Admin> it would be great to run the AI regularly on the server
13:51:06 <aditsu> um.. it currently does its thing only once, on start
13:51:12 <DorpsGek> Alberth: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
13:51:20 <DorpsGek> Alberth: 18446744073709551616
13:51:34 <Alberth> something in that direction :)
13:51:35 <Vaxy-Admin> ok, that should be enough xD
13:51:35 <aditsu> oh ok, I was getting closer :p
13:52:26 <Vaxy-Admin> shall I send you the old savegame in order to create the "heightmap"?
13:52:30 <Alberth> perhaps use 2**63 instead :)
13:53:19 <aditsu> what's the correspondence between ticks and actual time?
13:54:26 <aditsu> how many ticks for 1 min?
13:54:57 <Vaxy-Admin> Is one Tick equal to one day in OTTD?
13:55:56 <Alberth> 74 ticks is about 1 ingame day. (Roughly 2 seconds)
13:56:48 <Alberth> I would have expected that question to be a FAQ :)
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14:00:16 <Alberth> that would make 12 minutes for 1 year, but afaik it is near 18 minutes
14:02:03 <aditsu> hmm.. seems to take too long
14:03:59 <Vaxy-Admin> the map is pretty large
14:04:49 <aditsu> no, I'm still testing on 256
14:04:54 <aditsu> and it was just sleeping
14:05:26 <aditsu> or is the AI frozen while I play as its company?
14:06:56 <Vaxy-Admin> I think so. The AI is then be replaced by the player
14:07:29 <aditsu> but I switched while it was fixing the map, and it didn't stop
14:08:10 <Vaxy-Admin> maybe it just wanted to finish the current operation and then call an exit-handler
14:09:16 <Vaxy-Admin> didn't you said that the AI only start fixing at the start?
14:10:42 <aditsu> so I can have time to add money
14:12:36 <aditsu> actually.. I could make it wait for money
14:13:31 <Vaxy-Admin> with the cheat the AI becomes enough money to do his job for a very long time ;)
14:15:01 <Vaxy-Admin> how long does your computer need to recover a 256x256 map?
14:15:15 <aditsu> it actually depends how different it is
14:15:26 <aditsu> it takes a very long time with a random map
14:15:58 <aditsu> although I guess I could fast-forward
14:16:36 <aditsu> umm.. how do I get my CompanyID?
14:16:53 <Vaxy-Admin> Ingame-Console > Type "companies"
14:18:27 <aditsu> oh wait, there's a special id for self
14:24:29 <aditsu> I should test it with 2048
14:28:20 *** Vaxy-Admin is now known as Afk|Vaxy
14:29:26 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
14:30:33 <aditsu> I'm saving the "good" map now
14:30:42 <aditsu> Afk|Vaxy: actually did you want me to use the original map, with no companies?
14:32:38 <Afk|Vaxy> Do you have that map?
14:33:23 <Afk|Vaxy> Wait a moment, I will put the original map to my server
14:33:38 <aditsu> how did you create it btw?
14:33:54 <Afk|Vaxy> the map isn't mine... I found it somewhere ;-)
14:34:50 <aditsu> hm.. saving the map is taking way too long
14:35:13 <aditsu> I think I should output one whole line per log message
14:39:01 <aditsu> oh, log messages get truncated at 1024
14:48:23 <aditsu> I think squirrel is too slow
14:48:52 <Afk|Vaxy> do you create the map?
14:50:03 <frosch123> ottd limits the number of commands for ais
14:50:15 <frosch123> so terraforming a whole map is likely slow
14:50:29 <aditsu> already outputting 1000 characters/message
14:51:48 <aditsu> well it's using 100% of one cpu core
14:52:03 <aditsu> (in fast-forward mode)
14:52:55 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19966 /trunk/src/fios_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Use InvalidateData() in saveload GUI when appropiate.
14:52:55 <Alberth> that's what fast-forward does :)
14:53:14 <aditsu> yeah, but it's still slow
14:54:10 <aditsu> I hope it will finish in an hour or so
14:55:18 <aditsu> I suppose I could run multiple instances in parallel (using multiple computers too) to save different parts of the map
14:55:22 <aditsu> but it's too much work
14:55:50 <Afk|Vaxy> You need to create the map just one time ;)
14:56:34 <aditsu> I wish I had a 20GHz cpu :p
15:25:08 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: do you want FMSP in tank wagons, or are you just following what I said last time we discussed it? <-- i'd like to have it, but MB basically said he won't add it, unless it has liquid cargo class
15:29:03 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i suspect the sudden slowness of my game is an AI going haywire... is there a way to check which AI is currently calculating how much?
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15:34:56 <Ammler> aren't AI throttled somehow
15:35:33 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but at a generic value that needn't have anything to do with how much your computer can calculate within one tick
15:36:16 <Eddi|zuHause> game sped up significantly after deleting nocab, but i don't know if that was because of the AI, or because so many vehicles disappeared
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15:40:05 <frosch123> then code an ai cpu usage meter
15:40:26 <frosch123> it already counts number of instructions
15:41:04 <Eddi|zuHause> as that involves touching GUI code, it's unlikely to ever happen :p
15:41:13 <theholyduck> why not just temporarily print the numbers of instructions used for whatever to a file? then just read it with your favorite text editor then?
15:41:21 <theholyduck> should avoid the gui completely
15:42:01 <theholyduck> sure its not as included into the game, but i thought this was mostly a debugging thing anyway
15:45:10 <Eddi|zuHause> what use is a debugging thing if the people needing to debug things don't have access to it?
15:45:34 <Eddi|zuHause> AIs are supposed to be contributed by players, so the debugging functionality should be in the game
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16:21:53 <aditsu> Afk|Vaxy: I think it just finished saving the map
16:29:36 <aditsu> heh, loading it is taking a long time too
16:41:27 <aditsu> hm, is it possible to "freeze" everything except just letting one AI do terraforming?
16:43:46 <aditsu> Afk|Vaxy: still there?
16:47:59 <Afk|Vaxy> sorry, I watched the Simpsons ;-)
16:48:34 <aditsu> yeah, the AI is working, but very slow
16:49:02 <Afk|Vaxy> super :-) Now it is possible to recover "damaged" maps
16:49:06 <aditsu> and considering that it has to run locally, that's pretty bad
16:49:20 <aditsu> unless you can find a way to give it lots of money on the server
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16:49:57 <Afk|Vaxy> I know how to give the AI enough money.
16:50:15 <Nhawdge> Hey all, anyone know if it's possible to make the game always give you the same startup colors each time?
16:50:30 <Afk|Vaxy> Just load the game into single player mode, do the money cheat and load the game on the server
16:50:42 <aditsu> oh, that works? ok then
16:51:29 <frosch123> you can also patch the server to refund the ai when no clients are connected
16:52:16 <frosch123> Nhawdge: not possible, unless you patch the game yourself
16:53:24 <Nhawdge> Anyone got any tips for someone just learning how to play?
16:53:41 <Nhawdge> I don't think reloading the map and starting over once I mess up is a good way to learn
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16:58:44 <aditsu> Nhawdge: depends what you're struggling with
17:01:45 <Nhawdge> aditsu: well mostly getting trains to operate on the same track, with different products
17:02:21 <Alberth> one option would be to post a save game, asking for advice
17:02:42 <aditsu> Nhawdge: you can carry products from a station that provides them to a station that accepts them
17:02:53 <aditsu> Nhawdge: and for multiple trains on a track you need signals
17:03:47 <Nhawdge> I'm getting okay with signals, i'm struggling with the difference between them
17:04:56 <aditsu> I probably understand 3 signals and use 2 of them :p
17:04:59 <Nhawdge> for a while I was using all combo signals, and that ended up biting me in the back
17:06:16 <Nhawdge> Which ones do you use?
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17:06:55 <aditsu> block (one-way), and one-way path
17:07:11 <aditsu> I used to use 2-way block signals
17:07:45 <Nhawdge> What exactly does a block signal do?
17:08:24 <aditsu> allows only one train in the next section
17:09:04 <Nhawdge> so, for example if I have two stations with two lanes each
17:09:14 <Nhawdge> the rails join up into one single rail
17:09:20 <Nhawdge> would I use block signals to keep one train on it?
17:10:27 <aditsu> but you'd better have a different track for coming back
17:10:51 <Nhawdge> so that wouldn't be a good idea to do it like that?
17:11:51 <aditsu> only for short tracks maybe
17:12:03 <Nhawdge> yeah, say a screen width apart
17:12:18 <Nhawdge> should I be doing longer distance tracks?
17:13:08 <aditsu> longer tracks = more money
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17:14:11 <Nhawdge> I thought the longer it took, the less you would make
17:14:28 <Nhawdge> I guess I don't quite understand the initial calculation
17:14:55 <aditsu> yes, but the payment rate is multiplied with the distance or something like that
17:15:27 <Nhawdge> so for example like, distance = initial amount
17:15:36 <Nhawdge> and then end amount = distance - time taken ?
17:16:14 <aditsu> distance, amount and time are 3 different things
17:17:05 <Nhawdge> essentially I'm supposed to make fast trips over long distances to make most profit?
17:17:59 <Nhawdge> hmm well that makes sense
17:18:20 <Nhawdge> any industries that are worth while to focus on?
17:18:42 <aditsu> coal usually has high payment rates
17:19:16 <Nhawdge> I usually ignored it since it was a one way transaction
17:19:22 <Nhawdge> no wonder I am so bad at this, lol
17:20:09 <Alberth> there is a cargo payment graph, that tells you how much a cargo is worth
17:20:22 <aditsu> I'm no expert either, just my experience
17:20:33 <aditsu> yes there's that graph you can check
17:20:38 <Nhawdge> well yeah it also looks like coal doesn't quite spoil either
17:20:50 <Nhawdge> so if you do suck at speed, atleast it can't go down any further
17:21:16 <Alberth> you get paid per unit of distance, and get fined for taking time, so fast long transport is best
17:22:51 <Alberth> since running costs are very low compared to cargo payments, empty return trips are not much of a problem
17:23:47 <Alberth> so you make money when the train moves. Prevent blockage in the train network, at stations, etc
17:24:17 <Nhawdge> yeah, once I get the money making down a bit better I hope to learn the train signals
17:25:03 <aditsu> the strategy I'm using currently is to have one-way tracks (back and forth), one-way signals all the way, and many trains using the same tracks
17:25:43 <Nhawdge> that seems like a good idea
17:25:44 <aditsu> and I recently learned the one-way path signal, which is great for entrance to stations
17:26:02 <Nhawdge> do you use anything else with it? like a combo or entry signal?
17:27:05 <Alberth> Nhawdge: path signals cover most uses of those signals
17:27:17 <Nhawdge> I've read all the wiki tutorials, I really wish they would label which signals they use in the pictures
17:27:37 <Nhawdge> I get so confused when they just show a picture of working signals, but there are like 6 to choose from
17:28:05 <Alberth> not to mention that there are grfs with more variants of them :)
17:28:34 <Nhawdge> yeah that throws me in a huge loop
17:29:02 <Alberth> also, path signals allow more than one train in a single block, which sometimes increases performance dramatically
17:30:17 <Nhawdge> last time I was doing really well I had this elaborate train network
17:30:25 <Nhawdge> and my trains started getting lost
17:30:29 <Nhawdge> anything to remedy that?
17:31:08 <Alberth> trains needing service just move to the nearest depot
17:31:33 <Alberth> after servicing, they want to continue their journey
17:31:49 <Nhawdge> yeah I think that was my issue
17:31:59 <Nhawdge> I was being stingy on making more service stations
17:32:02 <Alberth> that means that from a depot, you may get trains going into unexpected directions
17:32:32 <Alberth> I simply lay track to go from anywhere to anywhere
17:32:52 <aditsu> hm.. is there a wiki page about differences between openttd and real life?
17:33:15 <aditsu> it always amused me how a one-tile depot can create, contain and fix any number of trains :p
17:33:17 <Alberth> ie at each junction you can go in every direction from every ingoing line
17:33:54 <Alberth> the page will be a lot shorter if you just mention the things that are the same :)
17:34:26 <Alberth> aditsu: openttd does not aim for realism
17:34:32 <Nhawdge> semi-long distance coal trick works
17:34:45 <Alberth> look at the cargo payment chart
17:34:53 <Nhawdge> I'm turning a solid profit after a year
17:35:21 <Nhawdge> So where do I find this payment graph?
17:35:48 <Nhawdge> (serious this is nuts, 40k profit in 5 months, only 1 train on coal)
17:36:00 <aditsu> Nhawdge: so little? :p
17:36:10 <Nhawdge> I only have two trains running
17:36:14 <Nhawdge> and I'm a year and a half in
17:36:19 <aditsu> Nhawdge: there's a graphs button
17:36:28 <elho> aditsu: if only those depots where amusing and not so slow, i wish i could built large platform based depots that trains would enter fast :P
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17:37:47 <Nhawdge> I found the payment graph
17:38:01 <Nhawdge> why I haven't I heard of valuables before?
17:38:34 <Nhawdge> is it like passengers?
17:38:45 <Nhawdge> the same thing that generates it, accepts it?
17:38:59 <aditsu> kind of, but they don't have large quantities
17:39:31 <Alberth> banks are in sub-tropic climate mostly
17:40:04 <Nhawdge> oh okay, I usually play the temperate(?) as I don't need more to confuse me
17:40:16 <elho> the small quantities of valuables/gold perfectly fit the incredibly small load supersonic planes take :P
17:40:30 <Alberth> houses generate/accept passengers, banks accept/generate valuables
17:40:33 <Nhawdge> ohhh that's a good idea
17:40:42 <Nhawdge> okay, that makes sense
17:41:32 <Alberth> if you select the land-information tool, and click at a house, you can see what it produces and accepts
17:42:05 <Nhawdge> where is this tool at?
17:42:42 <frosch123> on the menubar, the button no the very right
17:42:57 <frosch123> usually a ? or a (i)
17:43:34 <elho> a good advice is to right away buy an 11x9 sized area next to the first major station you place in a town, so you can later place an intercontinental airport without having to cut half of the town away ;)
17:44:41 <elho> (when only knowing the small one and that one which the original tt only had, their huge size comes as a surprise later)
17:46:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r19967 /trunk/src/lang/ (13 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
17:46:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
17:46:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
17:46:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by ElNounch
17:46:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
17:46:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: indonesian - 1 changes by prof
17:48:14 <aditsu> another funny thing compared to real life is that you can take passengers to anywhere you want, they will happily pay at the destination
17:49:04 <theholyduck> aditsu, cargo dest is being worked on
17:49:18 <theholyduck> so that passengers and what not has destinations
17:49:28 <Nhawdge> that will be pretty cool
17:49:50 <theholyduck> aditsu, possibly atleast
17:50:32 <Nhawdge> argggg, I feel so dumb
17:50:42 <Nhawdge> I started a new game now that I got the feel of this a lot better
17:51:03 <Nhawdge> spent $165,000 on a tunnel, only to realize I linked two coal mines together
17:51:29 <Nhawdge> I should hit myself in the head for that dumb move
17:51:33 <Alberth> now you have a nice connection to transport all coal to the same power plant
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17:53:01 <aditsu> I wonder what Chris Sawyer thinks about openttd and the changes
17:54:34 <aditsu> btw long tunnels suck, only 1 train can be inside
17:55:38 <Nhawdge> yeah, I'm learning that the hard way
17:55:49 <Nhawdge> any better ideas for avoiding terrain suckage?
17:56:29 <frosch123> just build over or around the hill
17:56:38 <frosch123> it is not such a big penalty as it might seem
17:57:08 <Nhawdge> well, I threw like, 6 coal cars on this beast
17:57:22 <Nhawdge> I figure taking that up a hill has gotta have it's penalties
17:57:59 <frosch123> build the track so he have not multiple slopes directly after each other
17:59:00 <Nhawdge> is it better to have one nasty slope than 5 small ones?
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18:00:15 <aditsu> I noticed that many servers have no speed penalty for slopes
18:00:44 <Alberth> depends on the acceleration setting
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18:01:13 <Nhawdge> do most of you guys play the multiplayer?
18:01:36 <aditsu> I do, got kinda bored of single player
18:02:22 <Nhawdge> hmm, I don't even play with bots
18:02:35 <Nhawdge> what is the multiplayer like?
18:03:11 <aditsu> I think it's quite nice, the most difficult part is to find a suitable game
18:03:16 * Alberth also plays single player without AI opponents
18:03:47 <Alberth> for multiplayer, I prefer co-operative play
18:04:03 <aditsu> oh, haven't tried that
18:04:13 <Nhawdge> yeah, I enjoy coop aswell
18:04:23 <Nhawdge> that is quite a crazy up hill scheme
18:04:34 <aditsu> yeah.. is it worth it?!
18:04:41 <frosch123> haha, albert does the same tricks like me. long way up, straight route down :p
18:05:15 <Nhawdge> how do you guys all feel about train length?
18:05:28 <frosch123> short trains are nicer
18:06:05 <Nhawdge> I was just saying cause it looks like Alberth has like 10 car ones in that picture
18:06:20 <frosch123> 5 tiles is standard length
18:06:30 <aditsu> I usually start with about 5 cars, but later when I have huge quantities to transport and tracks get crowded, I grow them to about 10 total length
18:06:35 <frosch123> 3 tiles for short distances, or weak engines
18:06:57 <Nhawdge> sheesh, I feel like a sissy, I normally don't go over 3 tiles
18:07:09 <Nhawdge> but I also start my game in the 1940s so It's only steam
18:07:34 <aditsu> I prefer to start with maglev, absolutely hate rail conversions :p
18:08:05 <frosch123> Nhawdge: chose the trainlength so full loading takes 50% to 25% of total travel time (including traveling back)
18:08:31 <frosch123> so 2 to 4 trains service one industry
18:08:50 <aditsu> um.. I have industries with >50 trains :p
18:09:00 <frosch123> (well, unless you play on very big maps with very huge distances, but i do not play such maps)
18:09:13 <frosch123> aditsu: primary industries
18:09:47 <Nhawdge> yeah, I always feel like my setup sucks so I rarely keep a game over 5 years
18:11:11 <frosch123> aditsu: or do you have primary industries with > 50 trains? :p
18:11:35 <frosch123> then you are likely playing 2k x 2k, which i do not like at all
18:11:56 <Nhawdge> aditsu: Are you playing right now?
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18:12:18 <SpComb> so, who wants an updated version of cargodist-sprinkles
18:12:21 <aditsu> frosch123: yes on a 2k map
18:13:04 <Nhawdge> and I would love some sprinkles
18:13:35 <SpComb> you can't have plain sprinkles on their own
18:13:52 <Nhawdge> that's what my mom always said
18:14:04 <Nhawdge> then when I moved out, I found out you can buy them on their own
18:15:02 <SpComb> maybe it's like Microsoft's OEM licenses, you can't buy them on their own, you're supposed to buy them along with some other piece of hardware
18:15:58 <Nhawdge> Do these cargodist come in a cupcake form?
18:16:35 <Alberth> it does, if you cut the CD in small pieces
18:17:05 <Alberth> of course, you have to burn it onto the CD first :p
18:18:13 <Nhawdge> I don't have any blank discs
18:18:17 <Nhawdge> would a flash drive do?
18:19:09 <SpComb> you have to be careful to cut the actual flash memory die into pieces, and hit the embedded core
18:19:16 <SpComb> not just the drive casing and controller board
18:19:51 <SpComb> but no, cargodist is a .patch
18:20:15 <Nhawdge> you've got my interest
18:21:10 *** Afk|Vaxy is now known as Vaxy-DE
18:21:32 <aditsu> can openttd make use of multiple cpu cores?
18:21:57 <SpComb> aditsu: not in the way that you're probably referring to
18:22:05 <Alberth> you can run one game at each core :)
18:22:57 <Alberth> the program saves its data with another core, but that does not happen a lot
18:23:10 <aditsu> maybe if the AIs could run on separate threads..
18:23:12 <SpComb> wasn't it /compressing/ the save data?
18:23:46 <Alberth> aditsu: practically all code needs the central map
18:24:07 <frosch123> when using sdl it also does the blitting on a different core
18:24:50 <Alberth> also, in multi-player, the non-determinism caused by using multiple cores would be a lot of trouble
18:25:09 <b_jonas> currently, if you have a multi-core cpu, it's likely fast enough that one core can run openttd without lag.
18:25:18 <aditsu> or animations vs movement
18:25:18 <Nhawdge> any of you guys playing a multiplayer game right now?
18:25:43 <Alberth> b_jonas: until you run a big game :)
18:26:00 <b_jonas> Alberth: is it the graphics that are slow or the moves?
18:26:00 <andythenorth> frosch123: is var B3 available to cb28?
18:26:58 <b_jonas> Alberth: I admit I haven't ran a big game yet, nor one with hundreds of trains, but the one I'm running uses almost no cpu.
18:27:03 <b_jonas> maybe if you fast-forward
18:27:18 <andythenorth> frosch123: nvm I'm being stupid
18:27:35 <Alberth> b_jonas: I don't have the numbers, but afaik the calculations of industry production, goods being moved to/from stations, train movement, block managing, collision checking take the most time
18:27:35 <andythenorth> I need to check if the game is in scenario editor
18:27:57 <Alberth> b_jonas: fast-forward runs as fast as your machine can handle
18:28:11 <aditsu> well, a 2k*2k map, my company has >450 trains, there are about 10 companies, and an AI that does some intense work on checking the map
18:28:31 <Alberth> oh, yeah, AIs also tend to eat lots of CPU time :)
18:29:06 <frosch123> andythenorth: it is not available, but there is no reason to not add it
18:29:35 * Alberth always gets lost on a 2k*2k map
18:29:35 <b_jonas> how can you even follow a 2k*2k map as a human?
18:29:36 <andythenorth> frosch123: I need to check if game is in scenario editor. I don't think B3 will do that
18:29:49 <andythenorth> I can't see an action D or varaction 2 for it either
18:29:57 <frosch123> i->construction_type = (_game_mode == GM_EDITOR) ? ICT_SCENARIO_EDITOR :
18:29:59 <frosch123> (_generating_world ? ICT_MAP_GENERATION : ICT_NORMAL_GAMEPLAY);
18:30:09 <aditsu> it's a map of Europe, I have an idea where things are :)
18:30:16 <frosch123> there is a varact2 variable for game mode
18:30:18 <b_jonas> I mean, even on a normal (256x256) map, when I have sixty trains I can't really follow them anymore, even with pausing a lot
18:30:34 <frosch123> you can also access it via action 679d though
18:30:42 <b_jonas> it's not getting lost on the map, but making sure all the routes are functional
18:31:06 <aditsu> I sort trains by profit, look at the poor ones
18:31:50 <andythenorth> action d var 12 miscmods?
18:31:54 <b_jonas> aditsu: do you turn disasters off?
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18:32:11 <Alberth> that's good enough usually, you soon make so much money that a few poorly performing trains won't matter
18:32:26 <andythenorth> ah varaction 2 var 12 I see
18:32:36 <Alberth> b_jonas: but I play with breakdowns, and servicing on
18:34:41 * peter1138 wonders if ccfreak2k's opengl blitter is usable
18:35:53 * andythenorth unbreaks building industries in scenario editor :P
18:35:56 <SpComb> Nhawdge: if you want to test it; tell me if it crashes
18:37:04 * andythenorth wonders about scaling industry clusters by map size
18:37:18 <Nhawdge> SpComb^: what is this for?
18:37:38 * andythenorth puts a hand up for help
18:37:43 <SpComb> Nhawdge: cargodist with sprinkles
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18:38:10 <Nhawdge> whats in it? the sprinkles don't sell themselves
18:38:14 <b_jonas> is drag-dropping a train within a single train list window the only way to put a train in a group?
18:38:32 <b_jonas> apart from cloning and renewing trains that is
18:43:38 <b_jonas> I find them convenient
18:45:20 <elho> i wish a train could be in more than one group
18:46:00 <b_jonas> Alberth: when I check all the trains, I go through them in groups instead of by number order,
18:46:08 <elho> or better yet if there where a whole lot of filters (like by cargo type, by source/dest, whatever)
18:46:28 <b_jonas> and when I replace or change trains, I usually have to check other trains in a group too
18:46:31 <SpComb> elho: tags instead of groups
18:46:43 <andythenorth> how many map sizes are there?
18:46:46 <elho> b_jonas: but what you put in one group?
18:46:58 <Alberth> b_jonas: oh, I use station lists for that. Just find a station that they all visit.
18:47:01 <b_jonas> elho: trains on a single line or multiple related lines
18:47:14 <b_jonas> Alberth: that helps in the second case, but not in the first case, when I iterate over all trains,
18:48:04 <Alberth> andythenorth: 2^6 to 2^11, ie 6
18:48:22 <b_jonas> Alberth: but aren't there rectangular ones?
18:48:44 <SpComb> Nhawdge: a custom build with features not in normal versions
18:48:49 <Alberth> andythenorth: for horizontally and vertically seperate :p
18:49:08 <andythenorth> I only care about the total area. I just need to scale the number of industry clusters appropriately
18:49:20 <aditsu> hm.. openttd just crashed on me
18:49:36 <Nhawdge> SpComb^: Tempting, but I am struggling enough learning these normal features
18:49:47 <aditsu> trying to connect to a multiplayer game
18:50:35 <aditsu> openttd(_ZNK10AIInstance6IsDeadEv+0xc) -> what does that mean?
18:50:59 * andythenorth won't be support 64x64 maps with FIRS :o
18:51:11 <Alberth> b_jonas: yes, you can set horizontal and vertical size independently. A few weeks back I played 256x1024, it gives a very nice twist to laying tracks :)
18:51:25 <b_jonas> aditsu: likely the instruction pointer from the traceback
18:51:31 <aditsu> SpComb: should I post the crash log?
18:51:42 <elho> Alberth: looking at that zig-zag slope picture from earlier on, it is always interesting to see how others play. but i assume that one is more aesthetical than useful, right?
18:52:02 <elho> my current map is 2048x256
18:52:20 <aditsu> b_jonas: but what does it mean that AI instance 6 is dead?
18:52:23 <SpComb> aditsu: from whate version?
18:52:48 <SpComb> aditsu: then post it on bugs.openttd.org, sure
18:52:58 <SpComb> but test in 1.0.2-RC first
18:53:25 <aditsu> I can't get that easily
18:53:35 <Alberth> elho: to some extent it *is* useful, a train won't climb a high hill (I have freight multipliers set quite high :) )
18:53:57 <SpComb> aditsu: then post it in any case
18:54:42 <elho> Alberth: well, use 4 engines then, or whatever it'll take ;)
18:55:20 <frosch123> andythenorth: that action d variables also gives you the total map area
18:55:26 <Nhawdge> is it possible to make multiple engines work the same train?
18:55:43 <Alberth> Nhawdge: sure, just buy another locomotive
18:55:54 <Alberth> and put it in the same train
18:56:05 <Nhawdge> Alberth: would it get me twice the horsepower for a single long train?
18:56:16 <Alberth> of course running costs double as well :)
18:57:05 <Nhawdge> is there a limit of engines?
18:57:05 <Alberth> Nhawdge: I'd expect so, but I don't know much about train acceleration
18:57:35 <Alberth> you run out of money? :)
18:58:17 <Nhawdge> haha, yeah I'm doing awful this time around
18:58:42 <frosch123> andythenorth: "1 << min(0, (patchvar13 & 0xFF) - 3)" gives you 128 on 2k x 2k maps, and 1 on 128x256 maps
18:58:44 <elho> the freaking thing is just that openttd at some point started to force the dual-vehicle locomotives to be one in the front and one in the back, and not being able to make it 4 in the front hurts my eyes :/
18:59:14 <frosch123> just compute that once using action d and, then use that parameter to compare in varact2
18:59:25 <andythenorth> frosch123: I'm just running tests on different map sizes....
18:59:31 <andythenorth> never used action d :o
18:59:37 <b_jonas> Nhawdge: too many engines just make the train heavy to pull (engines are usually heavier than carriages) and long for stations
19:00:07 <frosch123> don't be afraid, it is not named after dalestan :p
19:00:20 <elho> thank god there's drag'n'drop stations though ;)
19:00:28 <Nhawdge> b_jonas: so stick with 1 for the most part?
19:00:46 <frosch123> s/min/max/ actually
19:01:08 <Alberth> aditsu: crash.save and crash.dump ?
19:01:25 <aditsu> Alberth: I'll check and attach
19:01:34 <Alberth> oh, and a .png file too
19:02:02 <frosch123> .sav, .dmp, .log, .png
19:02:13 <aditsu> Alberth: I can only find sav and log
19:02:21 <aditsu> or are they in different places?
19:02:42 <frosch123> hmm, wait, you were on linux or so, right?
19:03:02 <frosch123> then there is no .dmp
19:03:43 <Alberth> mine usually end up in ~/.openttd
19:04:00 <Alberth> ie the directory of the openttd.cfg file
19:04:13 <aditsu> yeah.. but I only have sav and log
19:04:25 <aditsu> oh, the sav is empty (0 bytes)
19:05:46 <b_jonas> Nhawdge: I can't really give you advice, I don't have much practice with multi-engine trains (nor openttd realistic acceleration) yet
19:06:41 <Alberth> aditsu: the .log does not say much more than "it crashed". We'd need a way to reproduce the problem, or at least more information.
19:07:09 <aditsu> it does have a stack trace
19:07:38 <aditsu> I can post the server info, but the stuff on the server might change
19:08:06 <Alberth> do you have a save game? (perhaps an autosave one) ?
19:08:37 <aditsu> the other instance is doing autosaves
19:09:05 <aditsu> but that's not the same
19:09:54 <aditsu> oh, I have a "network_client.tmp" in the autosave dir
19:09:55 <Alberth> a save game that crashes is all we need
19:10:02 <elho> Nhawdge: i do not have much either, because i a) terraform the hill away and be done with it, b) am doing maglevs way before i'm done at connecting everything on the map due the fast gamespeed. and maglevs go uphill without slowdown. :)
19:10:04 <aditsu> with the same time as the crash log
19:11:03 <Alberth> .tmp does not sound very good :)
19:11:14 <b_jonas> elho: do you build long trains?
19:11:44 <b_jonas> I usually don't use more than 12 total carriages (including engines)
19:11:45 <frosch123> iirc the downloaded save from the server is stored in network_client.tmp
19:11:49 <elho> b_jonas: 32 vehicle (so 16 tile stations)
19:12:17 <Nhawdge> what do you guys carry on trains that long?
19:12:43 <elho> everything, except gold (not enough of that)
19:13:39 <b_jonas> elho: you don't mean to have train full of mail, right?
19:14:32 <aditsu> Alberth: attached anyway
19:15:29 <andythenorth> Nhawdge: if you use transfer orders, it's quite easy to have a lot of trucks feeding one big train
19:15:49 <andythenorth> 5 mines -> trucks -> transfer station can fill 2000t trains easily :)
19:15:56 * andythenorth hmms about map sizes
19:16:07 <Nhawdge> andythenorth: I never really use trucks, thats a good idea
19:16:26 <andythenorth> if the industry probability distribution gets tweaked in trunk for any reason, my clustering is going to be...wrong
19:16:31 <andythenorth> Nhawdge: try HEQS :)
19:17:40 <elho> Nhawdge: the idea is to take a laaarge map, then say collect all wood on the map to the single sawmill that is most far away and close to one corner of the map and then the thousands of tonnes of paper you get across the whole network to some printing works that turns it into goods. now take the goods to all the cities you service. that'll take you a whole lot of long trains for each carge type.
19:18:43 <b_jonas> elho: why to all the cities? why not just one city?
19:19:05 <elho> b_jonas: right, passengers/mail is the exception i mix in one train (as well as wheat/linestock, but that is just the same farm-stuff to me)
19:19:29 <Nhawdge> frosch123: good lord at that station place, does it even accept goods?
19:19:29 <aditsu> that last screenshot is mind boggling
19:19:36 <b_jonas> elho: openttd is strange in that some farms produce much more of one than the other
19:19:45 <b_jonas> elho: or is that only because I messed up something?
19:20:25 <b_jonas> that second screenshot is crazy
19:21:16 <elho> frosch123: the goals aren't even contradicting itself. i totally play it like model trains and not care about profit. i only maximize production to get the network as crowded as possible :)
19:21:23 <Nhawdge> so that HEQS thing has bulldozers in it, what are those for?
19:21:40 <andythenorth> eye candy mostly
19:21:43 <andythenorth> they are very slow
19:21:50 <andythenorth> I just like bulldozers so I included them
19:22:19 <b_jonas> bulldozers like those a town uses when you order road reconstuction?
19:22:20 <frosch123> elho: playing on a very flat map and mountainious is very different
19:22:20 <Nhawdge> can they gather on their own?
19:22:32 <frosch123> you have no chance to build a big station in mountainious
19:22:55 <elho> b_jonas: i think commercial buildings benefit from goods. i might be mistaken though.
19:24:16 <elho> i also always thought a farm would be harmed by destroying their fields and crushed any nearby town that tried to expand and bought a protective barrier of land around it :P
19:25:22 <b_jonas> elho: isn't the farm thing true in Locomotion?
19:25:23 <elho> must have been that by coincidence production went down at a farm that i bulldozed around that made me "learn" that wrong ;)
19:25:36 <andythenorth> bulldozing fields has no effect
19:25:42 <Alberth> andythenorth: industry probabilities need more work than small tweaking :)
19:25:54 <andythenorth> Alberth: in what resp?
19:26:07 * KenjiE20 bulldozes andythenorth's farm for a bypass
19:27:05 <KenjiE20> but it's a bypass, you have to build bypasses
19:27:06 <b_jonas> I do think bulldozing the fields have no effect, but I still avoid bulldozing fields if there's no reason for it. For example, I bulldoze fields if I need terraforming for a train track, but I avoid fields if I just want to plant trees for town rating.
19:27:27 <b_jonas> Also, farms sometimes make new fields.
19:27:29 <andythenorth> bulldozing fields *is* more expensive than bulldozing empty land
19:27:54 <b_jonas> so is bulldozing stone or rough land
19:28:14 <b_jonas> but when I have lots of money that doesn't count much
19:28:23 * andythenorth has tested cluster counts enough
19:28:25 <elho> andythenorth: thanks, i know its all in the wiki somewhere, but i only get a week of hardcore playing every few months, so i have trouble knowing the whole mechanics inside out and remembering it :)
19:28:30 <andythenorth> how do I do this action d thing
19:29:14 <elho> you plant trees?!?! i hate the freaking trees, i rather do bribing ;D
19:29:17 <b_jonas> in case anyone's interested, there are two things that weren't obvious to me when I played ttd at first:
19:29:54 <Alberth> andythenorth: I think it would be useful if the random generation of industries depends on what currently exists on the map, ie build a feedback loop
19:30:03 <b_jonas> that trees can fix town ratings (this I only found out when I read on the internet), and that the build tracks button have a dropdown menu (before that I couldn't fix old tracks destroyed by ufos)
19:30:20 <elho> before invisibility was added to the transparency options, i bulldozed trees away in large areas just to properly see the landscape :P
19:30:35 <andythenorth> Alberth: during map generation, or during gameplay?
19:30:48 <b_jonas> elho: sure, I bulldoze trees to build tracks and to see signals
19:30:50 <Alberth> the latter at least, and perhaps the former too
19:30:57 <b_jonas> elho: but I also plant lots of trees
19:31:13 <aditsu> when I want to see things, I just press x
19:31:13 <elho> i know that trees make towns happy. but i preper bribing no matter how more expensive just decause the trees annoy me so much. ;)
19:31:37 <Alberth> andythenorth: one could also look at what players do, and adapt to that
19:31:40 <aditsu> elho: a true environmentalist :)
19:32:03 <andythenorth> Alberth: in trunk, or provided within newgrf?
19:32:06 * Alberth disables the tree generation :)
19:32:19 <andythenorth> i.e. newgrf can probably do what you're suggesting already
19:32:30 <elho> aditsu: guess i should stop transporting coal to show support for nuclear energy, huh? :D
19:33:10 <Alberth> andythenorth: it needs an overview of the whole map, and see what gets serviced.
19:33:29 <aditsu> oh, what a great idea, coal and oil should run out around 2050 like it's gonna happen irl :)
19:33:35 <elho> Alberth: oh, does that mean no trees at all, or just disabring that insane spread all over the place? the latter i'd be interested in
19:33:52 <Alberth> elho: it is a generator option
19:33:55 <andythenorth> Alberth: the industry code is already suffering from complexity problems, I'm not sure if anything should be added to it :o
19:34:18 <Alberth> andythenorth: trunk or newgrf, or both?
19:34:29 <andythenorth> currently, when I set a probability for an industry, here's what I have to test for:
19:34:37 <andythenorth> (a) combinations of map sizes
19:34:45 <elho> Alberth: ah, you're talking about the editor, gotcha
19:35:02 <Alberth> elho: no, the generator window
19:35:16 <andythenorth> (b) combinations of: industry count, terrain type, smoothness, sea level and variety distribution
19:35:32 <andythenorth> all just to make sure players don't whine about industry counts with a certain combination :P
19:35:50 <andythenorth> if we add another thing, it gets worse :o
19:36:14 <elho> Alberth: but picking up the tool AI concept of earlier today, one could do a forester AI that bulldozes trees close to all non-blank fields all day long :D
19:37:01 * andythenorth is baffled by action d
19:37:39 <Alberth> andythenorth: yes, we should toss it all overboard, and make something more adaptable, like a script
19:38:45 <elho> Alberth: yeah, that generator window to me is part of the editor, the first step you take. even it actually might be its own component (or even changed, my current map i did in <=0.6.0)
19:39:02 * Alberth briefly confused action D with action C, and was wondering about the baffledness of andy :)
19:40:28 <Alberth> andythenorth: is a script not a good idea?
19:40:46 <andythenorth> might be. how would it work?
19:42:12 <Nhawdge> It was nice chatting with you all, thanks for the help and have a nice day
19:42:19 <b_jonas> aditsu: oil running out in 2050 would be bad, becuase oil rigs start only quite late in the game
19:42:44 <b_jonas> aditsu: as for coal it wouldn't change that much, becasue coal isn't too profitable in late game anyway
19:42:50 <b_jonas> so coal could run out
19:43:01 <b_jonas> maybe mines should run out only if you actually mine them?
19:43:08 <b_jonas> individual mines that is
19:43:42 <elho> andythenorth: reading on the town wiki page, it only states that goods do not make towns grow. that i knew, my impression rather was that they would affect ratio of commercial to residential buildings.
19:44:12 <andythenorth> no they just disappear into a black hole, no effect on gameplay apart from income
19:44:16 <aditsu> actually coal is still quite profitable.. anyway, if coal or oil run out, there should be something to replace them... hm.. uranium mines? solar panel factories? :p
19:44:43 <elho> uranium mines could be added then. and nuke factories. then deliver nuke a city that hates you, and.... oh wait, different game concept ;D
19:45:23 <aditsu> how about a nice game of chess? :)
19:45:35 <elho> if oil runs out, your trucks and busses would have to stop working, too ;)
19:45:57 <aditsu> nah, new electric vehicles
19:46:00 <Alberth> andythenorth: You load an economy script that runs like a AI that controls the industry generation, and perhaps other things.
19:46:13 <Alberth> aditsu: go is much nicer :)
19:46:36 <aditsu> Alberth: agreed, but that's how the quote goes
19:46:38 <Alberth> andythenorth: of course, realizing such a scripted game is non trivial :)
19:46:42 <aditsu> Alberth: how strong are you?
19:46:49 <andythenorth> Alberth: sounds like it would fit with the 'goals' idea that's kicking around
19:47:21 <b_jonas> elho: how would nuke factories work?
19:48:26 <Alberth> aditsu: I was about 12kyu, but I haven't played for several years
19:49:22 <andythenorth> frosch123: I'm guessing, probably wrongly:
19:49:24 <aditsu> I play on kgs from time to time, about 3k now
19:49:27 <andythenorth> -1 * 0 0D FF 00 13 FE FF FF 00 00 //Store map size
19:49:50 <aditsu> andythenorth: what do you do with wind farms?
19:50:08 <aditsu> oh, they're just there?
19:50:11 <andythenorth> they are currently pointless, so they are not enabled in FIRS
19:50:42 <Alberth> andythenorth: yes, I have your goals framework page bookmarked somewhere
19:51:35 <Alberth> b_jonas: you bring sufficient uranium into the factory, then you get a big firework, and you have a nuked factory
19:52:12 <Alberth> andythenorth: scenarios would also fit in it
19:52:58 <Alberth> the bad news is that it needs extension of the network protocol
19:53:05 <b_jonas> Alberth: if you want a similar game where you eventually get to drop nukes, why not just play settlers?
19:53:20 <frosch123> andythenorth: FF is too much, there are not that many parameters
19:53:57 <Alberth> b_jonas: I am not so much of an invasive type of person
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19:54:32 <frosch123> i do not know how many parameters you use, but 10 should be safe :p
19:54:40 <ccfreak2k> peter1138, it's not mine, but at one point it was.
19:54:50 <Alberth> b_jonas: besides I was just answering your question of how 'a nuke factory' works.
19:55:29 <andythenorth> frosch123: I've put it on a cpp ID
19:56:04 <ccfreak2k> Rather, at one point it was working.
19:56:29 <ccfreak2k> However, I've heard there's been some changes the something blitter-related that caused it to not work anymore without some modifications.
20:01:14 <elho> b_jonas: you would bring in uranim from an uranium mine (and eventually steel) and get out a shiny rocket ;)
20:02:28 <b_jonas> elho: and when the rocket reaches Alpha Centauri, you win the game
20:02:36 <b_jonas> provided you're not yet bankrupt
20:03:33 <aditsu> what about aliens? I think that UFO thing should be developed
20:03:45 <aditsu> maybe they set up a base
20:04:07 <elho> now that will earn you money, get all goods to anyplace in zero time :D
20:06:07 <aditsu> alien alloy factories :p
20:07:15 <elho> another one your environmentalist comment made me think of, would be waste as cargo. cities could produce enormous amounts of it.
20:09:06 <elho> and you could get money for loading waste. then it is up to you whether you transport it do a dump or incineration plant or just load it on a ship that dumps it into the sea :P
20:11:10 <aditsu> or you take it to China and pay a small fee
20:11:30 <elho> and that nuke factory produces radioactive waste. cities get pissed if you transport it through them, and delivered to a dump, it will reappear at some point to be transported elsewhere :D
20:12:32 * andythenorth fails to read map size correctly :o
20:13:18 <andythenorth> what is a bit switch format anyway?
20:19:48 <planetmaker> 1011011 <- like that, andythenorth
20:19:57 <planetmaker> you interpret each position as an on/off
20:20:15 <planetmaker> mask and shift for a 0/1 value
20:20:19 <andythenorth> planetmaker: want to help? :D
20:20:36 <andythenorth> I'm lacking will to tackle this bit.
20:20:37 <planetmaker> I want to solve your dep issue ;-)
20:20:45 <andythenorth> ho hey, can't argue with that :)
20:21:32 * andythenorth considers optimising industry clustering to his own favourite map size
20:24:42 <andythenorth> planetmaker: you seem to like action D & parameters anyway, so I might await help :P
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20:30:47 <planetmaker> andythenorth: what do you want from parameters?
20:31:01 <andythenorth> push map size into a parameter with action D
20:31:05 <andythenorth> then read it back later
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20:36:37 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: mines should cluster?
20:38:08 <frosch123> i guess only coal mines
20:38:57 <frosch123> would other mines rather need some height?
20:39:36 <andythenorth> location restrictions add to the already horrible complexity :P
20:39:53 <andythenorth> which reminds me about farms & snowline
20:40:24 <frosch123> coal and oil are organic and are usualy across a huge area
20:40:43 <frosch123> ore is vulcanic and usually only at hills, isn't it?
20:40:53 <frosch123> no idea about diamonds, are they organic?
20:41:02 <andythenorth> does it make good gameplay though?
20:41:25 <frosch123> how much do they produce?
20:42:39 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I guess you want the tile size, right?
20:42:47 <andythenorth> frosch123 most mines produce a reasonable amount by default. ~100t depending on type of mine
20:43:00 <frosch123> then you do not need clustering
20:43:13 <andythenorth> frosch123: I agree
20:43:21 <andythenorth> planetmaker: yes, I need the number of tiles
20:43:27 <frosch123> except they exhaust quite fast, while new ones are found nearby
20:43:45 <andythenorth> no exhausting in FIRS, it annoys players :)
20:44:58 <andythenorth> oil wells could cluster
20:45:27 <andythenorth> or I could do them like PBI, spread out, more like an oil field than a single well
20:45:47 <andythenorth> and increase the default oil production level to a sane amount
20:47:46 <planetmaker> new desaster: oil spill
20:48:04 <planetmaker> all food production in the vicinity shuts down
20:48:44 <aditsu> and your rating in every town goes down to minimum
20:54:51 <planetmaker> after all it's not bitswitches but nibbles...
20:55:38 <frosch123> likely, maybe removie "bit switch" and only keep "format" ?
20:55:39 <planetmaker> or is my understanding wrong?
21:06:57 <Alberth> you cannot compute that yourself?
21:18:51 *** rhaeder has joined #openttd
21:21:57 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r19968 /trunk/src/station_gui.h: -Fix [FS#3876](r19955): the 'list of ships' button opened list of aircraft and vice versa
21:23:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r19969 /trunk/src/station_gui.cpp: -Change: swap 'list of ships' and 'list of aircraft' buttons in the Station View window
21:36:14 <b_jonas> uh, why won't my train enter here?
21:37:26 <b_jonas> does a pbs allow a train to pass if it can only reserve a path with sharp (90 deg) turns?
21:39:40 <frosch123> there is a setting to disallow 90° turns for trains
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21:42:27 <b_jonas> I will want to avoid the sharp turn later
21:42:36 <b_jonas> and will change the layout like that later
21:42:43 <b_jonas> but now I don't understand why won't this train pass the pbs
21:43:06 <b_jonas> it's waiting for free path when it could go to either the depots or the station
21:43:16 <b_jonas> but it may need a sharp turn for the statoin
21:44:05 <b_jonas> let me see what happens if I use the force to proceed button (famous last words)
21:44:20 <b_jonas> does that not work for pbs?
21:47:04 <b_jonas> the same mistake again
21:47:27 <b_jonas> when you start openttd, the track button starts with building non-electric trucks
21:47:42 <b_jonas> instead of building the latest tracks possible like in ttd
21:49:42 <b_jonas> okay, now I let all the queued trains pass and then fix the sharp turn
21:54:12 <elho> doesn't the tool these days default to the most used type?
21:54:32 <frosch123> there is an advanced setting: first type, last type, most used
21:55:16 <b_jonas> frosch123: I'd like last used, and that does work, but not at program startup
21:55:20 <b_jonas> frosch123: and I keep forgetting that
21:56:37 <frosch123> you always get the last used in game, at start you can only get first type, last type (!= last used), and most used (in game)
21:58:47 <b_jonas> okay, changed it to last available
21:59:00 <b_jonas> this should be better
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22:31:02 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> no idea about diamonds, are they organic? <- diamonds are organic, basically a special stage of coal
22:31:38 <frosch123> coal itself is not organic :)
22:33:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean "made from organic material"
22:36:55 <b_jonas> I wonder if this network will bear this many trains without jamming
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22:42:56 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: the problem with diamonds is they need very special heat and pressure conditions to be created, but they also need to get to the surface fast, otherwise they dissolve again
22:44:45 *** ProfFrink is now known as Prof_Frink
22:55:22 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 68719476736
22:55:32 <planetmaker> @calc 2**6 * 2**6
22:58:28 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Error: The answer exceeded 1.79769313486e+308 or so.
22:58:36 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 68719476736
23:06:19 <b_jonas> there are _two_ tubular bridges?
23:06:27 <b_jonas> was that so even in openttd?
23:06:32 <b_jonas> I thought there's only one
23:09:53 <planetmaker> though I haven't quite tested it, it should work
23:11:29 *** theholyduck has joined #openttd
23:23:01 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 4194304
23:23:18 <planetmaker> @base 10 16 4194304
23:35:47 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
23:35:57 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
23:36:02 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
23:36:17 <planetmaker> @calc log(2,4096)
23:36:17 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 0.0833333333333
23:36:28 <planetmaker> @calc log(4096,2)
23:40:27 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 1/log(2,4096)
23:42:13 *** Dreamxtreme has joined #openttd
23:54:42 *** fonsinchen has joined #openttd
continue to next day ⏵
