IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-06-08
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00:05:41 <Donut> what's going on in here
00:06:47 <DorpsGek> PeterT: Don't ask to ask, just ask
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02:04:21 <PeterT> morning SmatZ, you're up early ;-)
02:04:53 <PeterT> going to work or something?
02:04:53 <SmatZ> actually, I just came home
02:05:51 <SmatZ> what are you doing so late here, PeterT?
02:06:14 <PeterT> well, school is almost over, so I don't see any reason to go to bed early
02:07:56 <PeterT> just got home from a party or something?
02:08:56 <SmatZ> I woke up at 6am, and now it's 4am and I don't feel sleepy
02:18:34 <PeterT> oh wow - I'm not good at this :(
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09:04:06 <TrueBrain> all say: welcome back, to the CZ mirror
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09:05:31 <Mitch_1_2> Hi. How do I clear up wrecked trains?
09:14:28 <planetmaker> welcome back, to the CZ mirror! <-- like that, TrueBrain ? ;-)
09:17:50 <peter1138> CZ mirror: welcome back
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09:32:18 <planetmaker> anyone around in Brussels on Thursday night? :-)
09:32:56 <Mazur> I'd guess all the residents, apart from a few on vacation.
09:33:00 <planetmaker> (I see where that question goes wrong...) ;-)
09:33:31 <Rubidium> no, but is wednesday evening in Luxembourg close enough?
09:34:07 <planetmaker> I fear I'll be working quite late near Brussels on Wednesday evening
09:34:31 <theholyduck> planetmaker, if you pay for the plane, sure
09:36:10 <Rubidium> planetmaker: I can possibly offer you Brussels in the afternoon of Friday the 18th
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10:28:33 <planetmaker> Rubidium, at that time I rather prefer to be already back in BS ;-)
10:32:00 <Eddi|zuHause> why do you want to spend time in "BullShit"? :p
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10:33:17 <planetmaker> hmpf ctrl+w on wrong window
10:52:25 <fjb> The DVD writer I got from eBay has a visible and smellable nicotine problem. :-(
10:55:24 <fjb> It is covered in brown stains, it stinks, it sticks, it has brown nuggets in the tray.
10:56:05 <Rubidium> fjb: so that were the "free extra's" in the advertisement
10:57:04 <fjb> They were not advertised, sadly. There was an not advertised DVD in it.
10:58:09 <fjb> Hm, a picture CD from cewe. Am I curious?
11:18:15 <Rubidium> what's cewe for location?
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11:22:43 <fjb> cewe color, a film development service.
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11:24:18 <fjb> Oh, the CD also has a nicotine problem. :-(
11:26:20 <fjb> It is not readable any more.
11:27:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you've been screwed...
11:27:49 <Eddi|zuHause> get a new one next time... they only cost like 20€...
11:29:19 <fjb> It is one of the rare drives with Philips chip which can test the quality of a DVD. You can't buy them new any more.
11:30:26 <fjb> Nicotine kills people and technical instruments.
11:47:56 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... is there a parameter in firs to override compatibility checks?
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11:55:49 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: no, but one could be added. But then there would be bug reports :P
11:55:50 <planetmaker> I don't think so, Eddi|zuHause
11:56:00 <andythenorth> there is the ability to remove them from source yourself :)
11:56:23 <planetmaker> well, an over-ride parameter would be somewhat easy, but still...
11:56:27 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is, i have modded the industry changes out of alpine.grf
11:56:41 <planetmaker> then give it a different grfID and you're done
11:56:48 <Eddi|zuHause> but when i change the grf-id, dbset won't load, and if i don't change the id, firs won't load
11:57:06 <planetmaker> then you need to mod FIRS. Provide a patch
11:57:18 <planetmaker> happily added, I think
11:57:57 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: line 51 in checks.pnfo
11:58:26 <andythenorth> planetmaker: is a parameter a good or bad thing for this problem?
11:58:44 <andythenorth> I can forsee support problems
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12:01:08 <Eddi|zuHause> germanrv has a parameter to override the check, for use in combination with "allow multiple vehicle sets"
12:02:29 * andythenorth imagines a conversation
12:02:41 <andythenorth> user: "Hi, FIRS doesn't work"
12:02:55 <andythenorth> andy: "what do you mean by doesn't work?"
12:03:06 <dihedral> we know those conversations ;-)
12:03:14 <dihedral> it exists with everything!
12:03:16 <andythenorth> until "user: I enabled the over-ride parameter"
12:03:27 <andythenorth> andy: "oh well, can't help"
12:03:36 <Ammler> andythenorth: support is never a excuse for not doing something, you could simply decline support
12:04:13 <andythenorth> anyone who wants to over-ride it can compile themself
12:04:41 <dihedral> and then you'll get a load of 'can you provide a precompiled for me?' in the forum
12:04:41 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: are you going to distribute alpine grf?
12:04:47 <dihedral> or a 'is there a patch for' ...
12:04:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no
12:04:54 <dihedral> 'why can i not play on that server'?
12:05:11 <andythenorth> dihedral: yeah, but I can ignore those, because they are feature requests not bug reports.
12:05:16 <dihedral> + if you decline support for something from the very beginning, why even bother with adding such a feature?
12:05:29 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i can live with you saying "there won't be a parameter"
12:05:29 <andythenorth> that's my feeling
12:05:49 <dihedral> unless you make the paramter hold a word, such as "iknowthisisnotsupportet"
12:05:51 <Ammler> i just meant, don't use "support" as excuse
12:06:04 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: you should've said "there won't be no parameter"
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12:08:04 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... there's an oddity in the newgrf window
12:08:41 <Eddi|zuHause> if you use the filter, and add one of the grfs, and click the add button again, it adds another grf not in the filtered list..
12:10:56 <dihedral> or starting the 'index' all over again in the filtered list?
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12:17:47 <Eddi|zuHause> err... andythenorth, this doesn't look right: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Kassel%20Transport,%201.%20Jan%201922.png
12:29:20 <b_jonas> can I continue a game saved in openttd 1.0.1 in 1.0.2-RC1? how much stuff is lost or broken?
12:33:16 <Ammler> usually, things got fixed not broken due update ;-)
12:33:26 <Yexo> b_jonas: you can even continue savegames made with original ttd if you wanted
12:34:06 <Eddi|zuHause> (make sure town layout is set to "original" or "better roads", not "grid" in that case ;))
12:36:54 <b_jonas> I'll try to upgrade to 1.0.2-RC1 then
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12:50:11 <b_jonas> it built clean and loaded my game.
12:50:22 <b_jonas> now does this support changing the interface fonts, or is that not compiled in yet?
12:50:33 <b_jonas> do I need some configure option for that?
12:51:23 <Yexo> that has been included for quite some time now, but only since 1.0.0 does the interface also scale when needed
12:51:31 <Yexo> the only way to change it is to modify the config file
12:51:44 <glx> 1.0.2-RC1 is just a bugfix for 1.0.1
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13:15:02 <planetmaker> <Eddi|zuHause> err... andythenorth, this doesn't look right: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Kassel%20Transport,%201.%20Jan%201922.png <-- alpine climate?
13:15:57 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i don't think that's the cause, it should happen in normal subarctic climate, too
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14:18:08 <planetmaker> but not that often ;-)
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15:00:51 <b_jonas> the release candidate works so far
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15:13:04 <b_jonas> is it bad to have both plane and passenger trains between the same two stations?
15:14:25 <planetmaker> trains can provide higher through-put as the airport capacities are limited
15:15:30 <b_jonas> well, I'm still building the train network
15:15:53 <b_jonas> this map is a bit strange, because the three largest cities are in one cluster in the middle of the map
15:16:05 <b_jonas> and the other large towns can't extend well
15:16:15 <b_jonas> so the middle cities are a bit crowded
15:16:26 <planetmaker> especially then planes are only good to give you starting money in order to build a nice train network ;-)
15:16:27 <b_jonas> I'm transporting everything there
15:16:45 <b_jonas> oh great, I thought there was a secret to planes I didn't discover
15:17:01 <b_jonas> but I'm not too good in passenger trains either
15:17:19 <b_jonas> I always get rich from goods instead
15:17:20 <planetmaker> it all depends on a good network :-)
15:17:38 <b_jonas> right, I'm trying to build one now
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15:21:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i rarely do cargo at all...
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15:55:14 <b_jonas> I've been building this junctions for game years, now I'll have to debug it for a few more game years
15:56:31 <b_jonas> meanwhile I'm getting "urgently needs replacing" messages
16:02:48 <b_jonas> no, I don't like that
16:02:55 <b_jonas> especially now now that Asiastar has come out
16:02:58 <b_jonas> I want to decide the trains
16:03:06 <b_jonas> also, I want to play the game, not let the game play it itself
16:15:18 <frosch123> isn't there a difference between using autorenew and watching ais?
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16:47:42 <b_jonas> I'd like a warning signal for debugging train networks, which would behave like an ordinary rail track without signal except that if a train passes it, I get a news message.
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16:50:50 <Eddi|zuHause> you could hack the "first train arrives at <X>" message to pop up every time a vehicle enters a waypoint
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17:07:45 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: not bad
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17:29:21 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i think i need someone with deeper grf-implementation knowledge here... situation is this: grf A defines vehicles, and grf B defines a cargo translation table and a refitmask for the vehicles in A. situation in openttd now is, that the cargo translation table of grf B gets ignored and the refitmask is treated for raw cargo slots.
17:30:41 <Eddi|zuHause> question is: is this an oversight, a misinterpretation of the specs on openttd's part, or a misinterpretation of the specs by the grf coder?
17:36:01 <glx> maybe with action 0 feature 8
17:37:37 <Eddi|zuHause> as far as i know, that is already used.
17:38:04 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise the changing of the refitmask has no effect at all (when multiple vehicle grfs is allowed)
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17:40:56 <frosch123> i guess only the cargotranslation table from the grf supplying the action3 is used
17:44:17 <Eddi|zuHause> so a solution would be, to have action 0 feature 8 property 11 to also override the cargo translation table of grf A?
17:44:36 <frosch123> i don't think that makes any sense
17:44:57 <frosch123> cargo translation table is not only used for properties, but also for lots of varact2 variables
17:45:34 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r19946 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt indonesian.txt):
17:45:34 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:34 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: french - 19 changes by ElNounch
17:45:34 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: indonesian - 61 changes by prof
17:46:17 <Eddi|zuHause> other solution would be to store for each property(?!) which GRF defines it?
17:48:44 <Hirundo> ^^ at least for 1A/28/29 in _gted, to determine the correct refit mask
17:49:34 <frosch123> how does ttdp do it?
17:50:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no clue...
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17:56:19 <frosch123> ttdp does it the same
17:56:46 <frosch123> action3 defines the grf a vehicle belongs to, and that one defines the cargotranslationtable consistently for the whole vehicle
17:56:54 <frosch123> both variables as refit property
17:58:52 <Eddi|zuHause> so... any chance to properly solve it?
17:59:23 <frosch123> the issue is independent from the override-engines-from-grf property
18:00:59 <frosch123> i would say, just use the same cargo translation table in both grfs
18:01:41 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but what if grf A cannot be changed?
18:03:03 <frosch123> use cargo classes, and zero refit mask :p
18:03:22 <planetmaker> well, but it still only gets you that far ;-)
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18:03:38 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, cargo translation table should be defined by the grf that is going to use it
18:03:44 <planetmaker> sometimes you really want to take out a specific cargo (or add it)
18:04:07 <planetmaker> is there a point for an industry set to have one?
18:04:42 <planetmaker> Then my perception wasn't that wrong
18:05:04 <frosch123> when your industry grf does not define all cargos itself
18:05:17 <frosch123> but also uses cargos from other grfs
18:05:37 <frosch123> then using a cargotranstable could be useful
18:07:47 <planetmaker> I think firs defines everything, though. But if not... how would a CTT help you then?
18:09:02 <frosch123> assume set A defines cargoslots 5-9. set A can coexist with either set B or set C, which each define cargoslots 10-15, though with different cargos. B and C are not compatible
18:09:34 <frosch123> if A uses a cargotranslation table it can distinguish the cargos without reliing on the original cargobit or slot
18:11:35 <frosch123> anyway. if the grf only works with certain industry grfs, then it also knows the original cargobits they define, and then you do not need a cargotranslation table
18:11:57 <Ammler> how do I load a save with "old" banans grfs on a dedicated server?
18:12:09 <frosch123> cargotranstables are only needed when the origin of the cargo definition is unknown resp. can vary.
18:12:52 <frosch123> Ammler: how do you load it on a non-dedicated server?
18:13:13 <Ammler> with the gui -> load ->update grfs -> load again
18:13:27 <frosch123> that is singleplayer, isn't it?
18:14:58 <Ammler> yes, how to do that in mp dedi?
18:16:28 <frosch123> (i.e. read newgrf and general information from a save without loading it)
18:16:32 <Ammler> wow, thtat looks awesome :-)
18:16:50 <frosch123> it does? i thought grey is damn ugly :p
18:17:05 <Ammler> oh well, I mean the feature :-P
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18:23:09 <b_jonas> if I later post a screenshot or savegame of a rail network I built, could you look at it and criticize it?
18:23:32 <b_jonas> if so, should it be a savegame or screenshot or both, and if screenshot, what zoom and display options do you prefer?
18:24:28 <frosch123> if it is maglev only, better zoom far out so noone has to see the rails
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18:33:57 <planetmaker> b_jonas: always provide both, if you want feedback
18:35:37 <planetmaker> I can only speak for myself: only sometimes I'm in a mood to give feedback on 'look what I built here' - and only a few of those times I feel like opening actually the savegame
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18:35:53 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: maybe you could check out the screenshots forum
18:36:18 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: okay, I'll look at it
18:36:18 <planetmaker> or the #openttdcoop public server savegame archive ;-)
18:36:36 <planetmaker> it's not everyone's style, though
18:37:42 <planetmaker> make the screenshots in any case of what you like to get feedback of most
18:38:00 <planetmaker> looking at an image is about 1000 times easier than loading a savegame in terms of lazyness
18:39:38 <b_jonas> ah, I see, it's not under the openttd section
18:39:40 * planetmaker wonders whether SmatZ' piece of pie should say "nooo!" ;-)
18:40:22 <planetmaker> there has to be a pie, I think, not?
18:40:43 <planetmaker> Yexo get's devzone bug #1000 :-P
18:41:24 <planetmaker> and an r20k for all :-)
18:45:16 <Ammler> what if r20k isn't done then?
18:46:30 <Eddi|zuHause> we still do not have a r10k either ;)
18:46:53 <frosch123> Ammler: we stay until it is done :p
18:47:39 <Ammler> now, I get why TrueBrain asked for Wifi
18:47:50 <frosch123> but, well, at current rate, we need to do 30 revisions on that saturday
18:48:08 <planetmaker> better bring your laptops then
18:48:17 <frosch123> i do not have one :p
18:48:28 <planetmaker> you have 6Mbit upload and 0.7mbit download ;-)
18:48:39 <Rubidium> frosch123: 30 revisions of (trivial) commits is easy
18:48:42 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's 10 days, and 54 revisions, so we need about 5 revisions per day
18:49:24 <planetmaker> one is always translator. So 4 "real" ones
18:49:45 <Eddi|zuHause> we could have 10 scripted commits, and make a countdown like on silvester ;)
18:49:53 <Rubidium> planetmaker: we don't need 6Mbit upstream, and shared with 30 people and it's still enough
18:49:57 <frosch123> we could break regression a few times
18:50:13 <Rubidium> frosch123: or just add a few doxygen comments :)
18:50:30 <planetmaker> Rubidium: I didn't actually test it yet whether the speed actually is true ;-)
18:50:36 <frosch123> yeah, fs#3870 is good for two documentation commits
18:51:01 <Rubidium> and 2 or 3 commits for a release
18:52:27 <Rubidium> so that's 15 commits, leaves only 39 in ~10 days
18:52:50 <Rubidium> planetmaker: upload is really 10 times as high as download?
18:53:02 <planetmaker> uhm... vice versa ;-)
18:54:32 <Rubidium> oh, that's plenty then :)
18:56:26 <Zuu> Hehe, made it possible for road vehicles to overtake (very hacky so far) on bridges, but so far they only drive through the lead vehicle instead of doing a lane change. :-p
18:58:11 <Eddi|zuHause> "drive through overtaking" :p
18:58:33 <planetmaker> sounds crash-prone
19:00:26 <Eddi|zuHause> so... there's a possible feature request: "giant" screenshot of the minimap
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19:07:27 <Zuu> planetmaker: As in OpenTTD crashin or the vehicles?
19:12:52 <planetmaker> vehicles of course :-)
19:41:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19947 /trunk/src/table/engines.h: -Doc: Comment engine property tables with engine names. (Krille)
19:50:22 <Eddi|zuHause> err... what is the criterium to switch between "refittable to: x,y,z" and "refittable to all except: x,y,z"?
19:51:12 <Eddi|zuHause> should probably be a little less than 50-50... because having a list with >10 exceptions is kinda useless...
20:02:45 <Eddi|zuHause> suggestion: do not list more than 7 exceptions [7 is a magical number for "parallelisation" in the brain]
20:06:04 <Rubidium> countersuggestion: do not have more than 14 cargos
20:06:30 <Eddi|zuHause> also, it might be useful to put the "except" in black, to visually distinguish it from the cargos
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20:14:39 <b_jonas> this town has six ai airports, but it won't let me build one myself because of noise concerns
20:15:11 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19948 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Doc: Comments about display units missed height unit. (Krille)
20:16:39 <planetmaker> b_jonas: noise also is a function of distance to the town centre.
20:16:45 <planetmaker> and of course existing airports count
20:16:51 <planetmaker> so it might be bad luck for you.
20:16:56 <planetmaker> also the airport size counts
20:17:10 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19949 /trunk/src/ (bridge.h engine_type.h table/bridge_land.h table/engines.h): -Doc: Mention tricky units (like speed) more often and more consistently.
20:17:32 <b_jonas> it's the distance that matters here
20:17:43 <b_jonas> I want to build one near the center
20:17:53 <b_jonas> the ai airports are farther
20:17:55 <planetmaker> that nearly never works
20:18:10 <planetmaker> where (except in Berlin) do you have airports near the city centre?
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20:31:21 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: which of the "supplies" is reasonable to transport in a tanker wagon?
20:32:02 <frosch123> supplies for mines in tanker wagons should explode regulary
20:41:08 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: FMSP definitely, ENSP maybe, MNSP probably not
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21:15:37 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: do you have an overview for vehicle set designers, which cargo typically goes in what kind of wagons?
21:16:40 <andythenorth> but vehicle choices are the preserve of set designer at this time :)
21:19:01 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but there should be some kind of guide...
21:20:34 <andythenorth> feel free to make suggestions :P
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continue to next day ⏵
