IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-05-25
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08:44:03 <planetmaker> but how to tell people?
08:44:31 <__ln__> .. no, that was something else
08:46:19 <borgfish> which of the AI's are stable ?
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09:02:04 <b_jonas> I installed openttd 1.0.1 and it seems it works! great!
09:02:32 <b_jonas> the high framerate is a bit surprising after ttdpatch
09:04:08 <Rubidium> interesting, as OpenTTD's framerate should be slightly lower
09:04:27 <Rubidium> on the other hand, if it is noticable, you're probably using fast forward or something
09:06:15 <b_jonas> maybe it's not the real refresh rate, just some animations
09:06:25 <b_jonas> but the train seemed to move really smooth
09:07:12 <b_jonas> also note that I'm usually running ttdpatch in a slow emulator which makes it sometimes lag,
09:07:29 <b_jonas> but I think it usually runs at full speed when there aren't too many graphics on the screen
09:07:41 <Rubidium> ah, okay, that explains :)
09:08:08 <b_jonas> oh, maybe it's the emulator's vga refresh rate that's set to slow?
09:10:07 <b_jonas> but it seems I've set that quite high
09:10:34 <Rubidium> emulating an x86 is not that fast :)
09:11:27 <b_jonas> sure, but ttdpatch is an old game and cpus have become much faster since then
09:11:41 <__ln__> ttdpatch is not a game
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09:13:10 <Rubidium> the main "problem" is memory access, which hasn't become as significantly faster as CPU have
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09:14:15 <b_jonas> Rubidium: if memory access was the bottleneck, emulation would be slower by only a small factor than running natively
09:14:51 <OwenS> B_joanas: emulators need memorysccesses for code too
09:15:18 <b_jonas> OwenS: sure, and page tables and stuff
09:15:57 <OwenS> And an x86 emu wont fit in a cpus imstruction cache...
09:16:52 <OwenS> Page tables hit native code anyway
09:17:17 <b_jonas> OwenS: yes, but they're handled and cached more efficiently by the cpu than by the emulator
09:17:53 <b_jonas> most of the emulator code should be in the L2 cache anyway
09:18:19 <OwenS> True. Good emus will use the hosts paging though
09:18:19 <Rubidium> not of the emulated code
09:18:36 <b_jonas> OwenS: yes, I specifically said I'm running a slow emulator
09:18:50 <b_jonas> because it still seems fast enough not to lag unless I view lots of graphics in ttd
09:18:55 <Rubidium> after all, TTDP uses at least 4 MiB (assuming not enable lowmemory)
09:18:57 <b_jonas> I didn't bother with running it in a fast one
09:19:02 <OwenS> And L2 cache bandwidth is shared with the data fetches
09:19:52 <b_jonas> also it's the emulation of the vga that slows down the emulation
09:20:04 <Rubidium> and because of the really random "access" of the data in OpenTTD, caches would not help that much
09:20:10 <b_jonas> maybe if I set the emulated vga rate faster I'd get much more performance and still not see any difference
09:20:33 <b_jonas> Rubidium: they would if much of that data is graphics tiles
09:21:05 <Rubidium> I'm not even sure whether TTD caches the graphics
09:21:35 <Rubidium> in which case it always reads it from disk
09:22:01 <b_jonas> Rubidium: that would be strange, but if it was the case then the emulator would make it much faster
09:22:14 <OwenS> Reading from disk would result in truly awful performance
09:23:06 <Rubidium> b_jonas: it has to emulate all the syscalls to read from disk?
09:25:20 <b_jonas> Rubidium: yes, but it doesn't actually have to seek and read from the physical disk, which is slow
09:26:16 <OwenS> Neither does it running natively
09:26:36 <OwenS> Operating systems have disk caches
09:27:15 <OwenS> But accesses inside an emulator hit double fragmentation
09:27:56 <OwenS> (or with some image formats triplefragmentation)
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09:32:53 <OwenS> Of course, emulated graphicsare gonna really kill cpu cache, as normally they should hit the write combiners
09:33:39 <Rubidium> in any case, OpenTTD in dosbox is slow too
09:33:54 <planetmaker> most graphics things in dosbox are slow
09:34:16 <planetmaker> oh, good morning :-)
09:38:07 <b_jonas> planetmaker: I'm using bochs. good morning.
09:38:32 <b_jonas> OwenS: ah, that's true
09:38:47 <b_jonas> OwenS: and it eats the cache too
09:40:00 <OwenS> Bochs isnt really for running programs these days
09:40:13 <OwenS> More of a developers tool...
09:42:06 <b_jonas> OwenS: that too, but bochs also runs many DOS programs correctly, unlike some other emulators
09:42:23 <b_jonas> and so when I don't have performance problems with them I use it
09:42:37 <b_jonas> as I said, most of those games don't need a fast cpu
09:42:47 <b_jonas> nor a good video card
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09:44:10 <b_jonas> especially the older games, the newer games run better in dosbox
09:44:48 <b_jonas> or maybe it's random, not just age dependent
09:51:51 <b_jonas> <whisper>why is the default setting for autosave in openttd one month? does it crash that often?
09:53:20 <OwenS> Because 1mo can still be a lot of work
09:57:10 <Rubidium> b_jonas: because people crash their trains that often
09:57:37 <b_jonas> in openttd, does buliding parallel diagonal tracks confuse signals like in ttd?
09:57:46 <Rubidium> or at least when they do, it's always around christmas time
09:58:06 <b_jonas> and same question about building two depots back to back
10:02:00 <planetmaker> as far as testing goes I couldn't find any such bug :-)
10:03:05 * planetmaker wonders how long FS3856 had been lurking before being reported
10:03:14 <b_jonas> I'll probably see in half a game century
10:04:08 <planetmaker> b_jonas, let's say, openttdcoop produces every 10 days or so one game. Quite some things get tested there. Especially signaling and many kind of track oddities
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10:04:58 <planetmaker> (not that the players necessarily know that they're (also) testing the game :-P )
10:06:38 <b_jonas> what kind of signals do train depots have bulit in? can that be changed individually? or are they always pre-signal entries?
10:06:53 <planetmaker> what obviously is missing is a (semi-)nightly server which runs a competitive setup
10:07:21 <planetmaker> b_jonas, that's rather determined automatically. It's never pre-signal entry
10:07:31 <planetmaker> it's either pre-signal combo or path signal
10:08:30 <b_jonas> that means I can probably use path-based signals instead of pre-signals in my usual setup of one-end multi-platform stations with the depot connected directly to the junction
10:09:43 <b_jonas> right, combo makes more sense because it has to be a presignal exit from the outside and a presignal entry from the inside
10:10:23 <b_jonas> again, will see these too in half a game century
10:11:08 <planetmaker> what date is it in your game now?
10:11:49 <b_jonas> I just started, so it's 1950
10:16:51 <b_jonas> is there a hotkey/shortcut for the land area query tool?
10:19:56 <b_jonas> oh, the query tool prints the height of the square? great, that's useful
10:25:23 <b_jonas> and this autorail and the draggable diagonal rails are a huge timesaver
10:25:30 <b_jonas> the interface improvements are nice
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11:22:45 <b_jonas> you have to put ai libraries in the ai/library directory, not directly in ai, but that directory is not created by the installation. confusing.
11:24:45 <SmatZ> [12:03:05] * planetmaker wonders how long FS3856 had been lurking before being reported <== for about 12 days :-p
11:25:51 <planetmaker> I thought it might have been longer
11:26:32 <planetmaker> b_jonas, why should it. It's not even needed, if you download the AIs via ingame content download
11:28:43 <b_jonas> anyway, the ai works now
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12:57:30 <b_jonas> how many tiles is the max lookahead for path based signals? or where is it set?
12:57:52 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no such limit, afaik
12:58:08 <Eddi|zuHause> it uses the pathfinder, which is global
12:58:33 <Eddi|zuHause> well, there probably is a limit around 64k tiles ;)
12:59:06 <Eddi|zuHause> [including penalties, a little less]
13:00:35 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but it tends to have two trains constantly overtaking each other
13:00:43 <Eddi|zuHause> so you shouldn't use it
13:01:29 <b_jonas> does it also cause trains to turn back often because both tracks are temporarily blocked ahead?
13:01:45 <Eddi|zuHause> no, this is blocking-free
13:03:37 <b_jonas> I'll probably just try the layout I usually use in ttdpatch for tracks first, and use pbs only for stations
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13:10:52 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: i just wanted to warn you that overtaking might not work as well as you'd like it to be
13:13:14 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: right, that's why I'll not use this double track but instead the layout I usually build which does not allow overtaking:
13:13:52 <b_jonas> two tracks with one-way block signals and a few places to turn around guarded by two-way block signals
13:16:16 <b_jonas> I admit I'm not too good with signals
13:16:42 <b_jonas> last ttdpatch game I had a broken roro station for decades and didn't notice
13:17:08 <b_jonas> now I know that the exit pre-signals at the station entrance should be two-way
13:17:37 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not necessary in openttd
13:18:49 <planetmaker> one-way / two-way has no influence anywhere
13:19:02 <planetmaker> except if you play with non-default settings
13:20:14 <b_jonas> okay. I'm leaving now, bye.
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16:49:35 <b_jonas> what does this "far end" think do in order?
16:50:38 <Sacro> it makes the tarin stop at the far end
16:52:57 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: you can click on it to have trains stop in the middle or beginning of the platform instead
16:53:28 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: you can also change the setting to have middle by default. imho that looks best
16:54:08 <Eddi|zuHause> on terminus stations, beginning might give slightly higher efficiency...
16:55:14 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: Depends. Far end makes the trains roll into the station faster, so they unblock the junction quicker.
16:56:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i view it mostly as an eyecandy setting...
16:57:40 <OwenS> It would be nice if OpenTTD treated station tiles it wouldn't use as track rather than station for deceleration
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17:13:32 <b_jonas> in the trains information dialog, what do the colored dots below the train numbers mean?
17:14:14 <planetmaker> green=10k+ / year, yellow positive < 10k / year, red: negative income, gray: too new to know
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17:45:48 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r19894 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files): (log message trimmed)
17:45:48 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:48 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: czech - 27 changes by ReisRyos
17:45:48 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: danish - 19 changes by silentStatic
17:45:48 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: indonesian - 39 changes by prof
17:45:49 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 7 changes by mantaray
17:45:49 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 7 changes by mantaray
17:56:24 <Nilsor> Im currently setting up a dedicated server on my linux VS
17:56:40 <Nilsor> and im still looking for those server-addons like
17:56:47 <Nilsor> the goal settings for competitive servers
17:56:54 <Nilsor> can anybody help me out?
17:57:33 <frosch123> goal servers are custom builds, which got patched.
17:57:53 <Nilsor> are there any sources where i can download them?
17:58:17 <frosch123> usually the authors add the number of players on their server to their penis length, so they do not release any patches
17:58:46 <frosch123> read: you are on your own
17:58:50 <Nilsor> whats the weird info in the irc topic
17:59:19 <frosch123> you shall replace the "*" at the front with one of the other terms
18:00:24 <b_jonas> .oO(in centimiters or inches? and all the players any time or only the players logged in at any one time?)
18:00:41 <Nilsor> only the current players
18:00:47 <Nilsor> so their penis acts like a sinus wave
18:01:03 <b_jonas> Nilsor: yep, that's called erection
18:02:14 <planetmaker> [19:58] <frosch123> usually the authors add the number of players on their server to their penis length, so they do not release any patches <-- ymmd :-)
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18:21:17 <Rubidium> I think it is logarithmically in nm
18:22:05 <Hirundo> base-2, base-10 or base-e?
18:22:44 <Rubidium> Hirundo: doesn't matter as the result is unmeasurable in any case
18:25:19 <Rubidium> after all, it's multiplied by i in any case
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18:25:56 <Eddi|zuHause> it's an imaginary penis, obviously
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19:21:39 <b_jonas> I have a question about path based signal designs
19:23:17 <b_jonas> because that way the first train is likely to park in the top platform, and then if a new train arrives, it won't block the way of the first train leaving
19:24:25 <Rubidium> nah, now it just happens when the "second" train leaves
19:25:12 <b_jonas> but the first train is likely to leave earlier
19:25:27 <b_jonas> sure, if a third trains comes in early then there'll be a similar jam
19:25:57 <b_jonas> but if you have few trains, the third train won't come before the second one leaves,
19:26:12 <b_jonas> if you have more trains you could use something similar with three platforms and two tracks
19:27:46 <Rubidium> otherwise use two path signals with the light to the station; that way that becomes the more expensive one for the pathfinder and the train goes automagically to the top platform
19:27:48 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: one problem you might face is that the first train exiting is using the "wrong" track and thus still blocks the second train from entering
19:28:39 <Eddi|zuHause> in theory the pathfinder should have a penalty for that, but i never figured out how that works
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19:50:20 <b_jonas> in the opengfx set, what is the icon of the railway depot bulid tool on the toolbar supposed to symbolize?
19:57:49 <b_jonas> I know what it does, it builds depots
19:58:21 <b_jonas> but why is the icon L-shaped when the depots looks like a house
20:00:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know the opengfx icons
20:00:56 <KenjiE20> #openttdcoop.devzone <-- ask the creators?
20:02:19 * frosch123 wonders what should be L-shaped about that icon
20:02:45 <b_jonas> frosch123: gamma-shaped if you prefer
20:03:04 <frosch123> it's just a depot, isn't it?
20:03:21 <b_jonas> it doesn't look like one
20:03:38 <frosch123> maybe adjust the contrast of your display
20:03:50 <frosch123> the icon might be a little dark
20:04:12 <b_jonas> frosch123: are you using the opengfx set? it does look like a depot in the original ttd set
20:04:31 <b_jonas> it looks like half a depot
20:04:37 <b_jonas> it has the roof and some of the walls
20:05:29 <frosch123> maybe you are not using the opengfx depot, but some stupid monolithical canset or so
20:05:50 <frosch123> the opengfx icon looks like the depot, just smaller
20:07:37 <planetmaker> spleen shot would even be nicer :-P
20:07:48 <planetmaker> b_jonas: I can't follow you either
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20:08:07 <planetmaker> pic or it didn't happen
20:08:19 <planetmaker> fits even here ;-)
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20:09:05 <b_jonas> it's a rail depot open to the SE
20:09:26 <b_jonas> it has a door on the SE side and no ground below that
20:09:52 <b_jonas> and its W side is cropped
20:17:18 <b_jonas> the icon shows the depot cropped to the marked border, without the rails
20:17:34 <b_jonas> it's cropped in a confusing way
20:30:51 <b_jonas> by the way, if I want to show some build to ask a question, are openttd savegames portable among operating systems and cpus?
20:31:30 <planetmaker> oh... I never considered that :-)
20:31:45 <planetmaker> yes, savegames are the same everywhere
20:32:27 <planetmaker> I guess you're right that the depot icon could possibly use some tracks...
20:32:52 <planetmaker> though it'd be inconsistent with waypoints and stations. Which then also would need some
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21:37:41 <__ln__> i'm not sure if the final episode explained much
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22:15:14 <Nite_Owl> How long before a confirmation email gets sent from the sign up page at the main site?
22:15:43 * Nite_Owl plans on some minor wiki editing
22:17:55 <Ammler> maybe you use some filter system?
22:18:14 <Nite_Owl> that is what I feared - I did not get one so I must have failed
22:18:32 <Rubidium> greylisting can delay those mails considereably
22:18:57 <TrueBrain> but as openttd.org has an SPF record, it has to be a broken mail filter system
22:19:05 <Rubidium> planetmaker: any idea how late the "party" starts?
22:19:48 <TrueBrain> Nite_Owl: I don't have a pending entry ?
22:19:59 <planetmaker> you proposed that people should come having had lunch. Sounds like a plan. A feasable one
22:20:02 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: have you arranged/borrowed the car already?
22:20:14 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: nope, working on it; but shouldn't be an issue
22:20:29 <planetmaker> renting a car should work on 24h notice
22:20:29 <TrueBrain> I think I leave from Leiden at 0900 or something
22:20:37 <TrueBrain> I most likely will rent a car for 2 months :p
22:21:02 <Rubidium> my schedule for the 19th has a glitch, which makes me reach Amersfoort CS around 1000
22:21:02 <Nite_Owl> I did something wrong then but it did seem rather straight forward
22:21:19 <TrueBrain> haha, not at home? :)
22:21:50 <Rubidium> promised someone to help with something :)
22:21:50 <TrueBrain> last weekend I was around amersfoort :p
22:22:08 <TrueBrain> so 1000 will be fine
22:22:16 <TrueBrain> means we will be at planetmaker at 1400/1500 I guess
22:22:20 <TrueBrain> who more was joining? I forgot :p
22:22:28 <planetmaker> sounds like a good time
22:22:31 <TrueBrain> Yexo and Alberth I believe?
22:22:39 <Nite_Owl> user name & display name can be the same name ??
22:23:00 <Yexo> 1000 in amerfoort is fine :)
22:23:36 <Yexo> train 8:32 from eindhoven
22:23:47 <TrueBrain> Yexo: I suggest you arrange some way for you and Rubidium to recorgnize eachother :p
22:23:55 <TrueBrain> I know Rubidium, so I will be looking for him :p
22:24:46 <Rubidium> Yexo: familiar with Amersfoort station?
22:25:28 <Rubidium> I suggest to meet at the small car park at the south west side of the station
22:25:50 <Yexo> ehm, I'm not that familiar with the surroundings of the station, just the station itself
22:25:56 <Yexo> but I should be able to find that
22:25:59 <Nite_Owl> silly me - I did not underscore between the Nite and the Owl
22:26:59 <TrueBrain> it should read in plain text if you did something wrong
22:27:28 <Rubidium> Yexo: when coming from Utecht, it's the exit near the end of the train
22:27:47 <planetmaker> One of you could just wear a funny hat
22:27:54 <Yexo> so the exit via the starts at that end of the station?
22:27:59 <TrueBrain> or exchange numbers :p
22:28:00 <orudge> planetmaker: or an OpenTTD t-shirt!
22:28:10 <TrueBrain> orudge: I expect you supply us with those
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22:28:35 <planetmaker> you can ship them to my address and we'll distribute them there.
22:28:45 <orudge> I wonder if anybody's bought any
22:28:46 <planetmaker> Though then... not much help then for Yexo & Rubi ;-)
22:29:02 <TrueBrain> orudge: how much do they cost?
22:29:17 <orudge> www.cafepress.com/openttd
22:29:33 <orudge> hmm, $6 of sales apparently
22:29:34 <Nite_Owl> it did but I be dumb
22:29:38 <Rubidium> Yexo: you don't quite make sense :)
22:29:56 <TrueBrain> Rubidium / Yexo: exchange numbers, call when at station, and TADA! :p
22:29:58 <Nite_Owl> it did read in plain text but I be dumb sometimes
22:30:09 <Rubidium> if your train arrives, exit it and walk towards the end where the train came from
22:30:18 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: the location is kinda important for you too :)
22:30:20 <TrueBrain> orudge: expensive shit
22:30:23 <Nite_Owl> like just now when I did not scroll down far enough
22:30:31 <Yexo> Rubidium: yes, there are overhead stairs at that end of the station
22:30:34 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I just call you when I approach the station :p
22:30:41 <Rubidium> Amersfoort is a mess w.r.t. one way roads, which makes reaching the "Stationsplein" a bitch
22:30:46 <orudge> TrueBrain: do you mean "shit" as in "it's rubbish", or just as in "stuff"? :P
22:30:49 <orudge> I can't say what the quality's like
22:30:52 <orudge> as I haven't bought any of it myself
22:31:02 <orudge> but, well, it's pretty much the cheapest we could make it without giving it away :p
22:31:21 <Rubidium> not "Stationsplein 41" :)
22:31:44 <TrueBrain> so I will go over A28 instead of A1 :p
22:32:21 <TrueBrain> although it doesn't really matter
22:32:33 <orudge> I can't figure out from this useless site what was actually bought
22:33:07 <TrueBrain> orudge: I love how they rendered the logo on the shirt :p
22:33:25 <__ln__> hmmm... wearing a big dollar sign on a t-shirt may give the wrong idea to people who are unaware of this noble game.
22:34:43 <Ammler> never liked the openttd logo either
22:34:58 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: can you also arrange with Alberth? :) I will let you know next week if I have the car or not, but I see no issues, so :)
22:35:00 <TrueBrain> for now, good night
22:36:46 <Rubidium> I'll give you a route into Amersfoort; it differs a bit from Google's suggested route, but it has more highway and less traffic lights/speed traps
22:37:09 <Rubidium> it's 1 km longer and 1 minute shorter :)
22:43:53 <planetmaker> good night here, too :-)
22:46:03 <Nite_Owl> wiki edit made - thank you for your help
22:49:13 *** murr5y is now known as murr4y
22:59:05 *** Chris_Booth has joined #openttd
23:39:01 *** Phoenix_the_II has quit IRC
23:42:57 * b_jonas has built a pbs junction and is now watching whether it seems to work well
23:47:49 <PeterT> pbs junctions are easy :-P
23:58:54 * PeterT stares at the fail in #freenode
continue to next day ⏵
