IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-05-15
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00:22:43 <|Hijacker|> hi! a friend of mine and me are having trouble with a trainstation... next to that station is a glas and a steel production. we supply coal to that trainstation of these two factories, but unfortunately the glas factory sucks up ALL the delivered coal and the steel factory gets none
00:22:46 <|Hijacker|> is there any way to fix this?
00:23:47 <PeterT> No, but you can try to seperate the stations
00:24:00 <PeterT> so that one station's catchment is only near one factory
00:24:07 <|Hijacker|> damn, ok i already suspected this
00:24:55 <|Hijacker|> that's the mate i was talking about ^^
00:25:18 <z0rn> i wont fix ur mess this time
00:25:19 <|Hijacker|> it was YOUR idea to build that second factory next to the glass one!
00:25:26 <|Hijacker|> i wanted to build it a few miles upwards :p
00:25:31 <PeterT> <PeterT> No, but you can try to seperate the stations
00:25:31 <PeterT> <PeterT> so that one station's catchment is only near one factory
00:25:48 <z0rn> i already feared that would be the possibility
00:26:06 <z0rn> |Hijacker|: go and start building
00:26:35 <|Hijacker|> I'll build a blanket fortress ^^
00:27:00 <z0rn> we wont stop before the coal reaches the steal-fac
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04:58:54 <beerface> i had a couple questions about commands for when I make my own server
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07:29:51 <Wasila> Iw as wondering, on the openttdcoop.dev server
07:29:56 <Wasila> How do you get the pass?
07:30:33 <Alberth> you tried #openttdcoop ?
07:30:46 <andythenorth> is it bad documentation to write 'this should be fairly self-explanatory'
07:31:13 <Wasila> What are you referring to?
07:31:25 <Alberth> is it useful to say that about something that should be fairly self-explanatory?
07:31:37 <andythenorth> that's what I wondered
07:31:39 <Wasila> Where exactly do you want to say it
07:31:53 <andythenorth> at the top of the whole page?
07:32:04 <andythenorth> now I have to think harder
07:32:41 <Alberth> just describe what you get, and leave it with that, I'd say
07:32:50 <Alberth> ie don't explain how to use it.
07:33:20 <Wasila> Wait, but isn't there already an explanation?
07:33:27 <Wasila> Why put it's fairly self explanatory>
07:33:45 <Alberth> if people have trouble, the page will get adapted :)
07:34:05 <planetmaker> hm... andythenorth if it doesn't need explanaition, don't say so. It's bad style
07:34:23 <planetmaker> there might be cases where it does ;-)
07:36:45 <planetmaker> Alberth: how can I tell to re-draw not only the active widget (when handled in OnClick) but to SetDirty the whole window as other widgets get disabled?
07:37:09 <planetmaker> this->SetDirty() only acts on the current widget, if I get it right...
07:37:28 <Alberth> depends on the class of 'this' :)
07:37:42 <andythenorth> fricking wiki formatting
07:38:01 <planetmaker> Well... I'm thinking of, say, a push button which is clicked
07:38:23 <planetmaker> if done so, other similar ones within the same frame should get de-activated.
07:38:47 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I've added some stuff to alignment tool
07:39:06 <andythenorth> I might remake the screenie
07:40:03 <Alberth> Window::SetDirty() marks the whole window as in need to get redrawn. Add that call somewhere in the sequence of actions of OnClick()
07:40:46 <planetmaker> ah... that was what I was looking for, I guess :-)
07:40:55 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I guess so :-)
07:41:03 <Alberth> Alternatively, you can mark each widget individually as needing to be redrawn ( Window::SetWidgetDirty(wid_idx) )
07:42:12 * andythenorth has a documentation debt and feels better for repaying it slightly
07:42:13 <planetmaker> Might make more sense... Not everything needs re-drawing
07:42:20 <andythenorth> is documentation debt like technical debt?
07:43:16 <andythenorth> apparently documentation debt is a facet of technical debt, so 'yes'
07:43:30 <Alberth> they are, in the sense that both makes no sense to me :)
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08:01:57 <planetmaker> andythenorth: looking at what you said wrt widgets in the game creation dialogue:
08:02:16 <planetmaker> one of smoothness or terrain type could go IMHO. They sound at least to do the same - although they don't.
08:04:14 <planetmaker> sure it is, andythenorth
08:04:29 <planetmaker> I only added a stub back then in order to have it documented at all :-)
08:05:40 <planetmaker> if you're at it, you could look up the revision it was introduced ;-)
08:05:52 <planetmaker> the text still reads OpenTTD r19xxx and following...
08:07:05 <andythenorth> it was incremental, but r19723 seems to be useful enough
08:08:05 <planetmaker> good to link it in the newgrf wiki, too. yeah
08:08:26 <andythenorth> not sure where it should be linked from in the OTTD wiki though :o
08:08:44 <planetmaker> nobody get me wrong please, but sometimes I wonder whether it would be helpful to move the newgrf wiki to the dev section of the OpenTTD wiki...
08:09:18 <planetmaker> but it's a huge taske without immediate gain :S
08:09:27 <andythenorth> I'd have to adjust my brain to get used to that idea :o
08:09:42 <andythenorth> I can type the current url without thinking :P
08:09:57 <andythenorth> one wiki is much the same as another wiki to me :)
08:10:11 <planetmaker> well. The point is the accessibility
08:10:24 <planetmaker> Ever tried to add a topic section there?
08:11:26 <planetmaker> maybe you can, but I doubt it
08:12:25 <planetmaker> also it'd be easier to only learn / use one wiki style
08:13:09 <andythenorth> think I'm done with that for now....one more ticket closed.... (in my mind)
08:13:56 <Alberth> planetmaker: there are too many wiki implementation to ever reach that goal
08:14:26 <planetmaker> but there's two now withing OpenTTD :-)
08:14:55 <planetmaker> and both work quite differently
08:15:18 <planetmaker> but as said, my main concern is not the style, but the possibility to edit it
08:15:32 <planetmaker> not myself personally. Generally
08:16:15 <planetmaker> but then it might be good to have some kind of barrier in front of the specification documentation of newgrfs
08:16:44 * andythenorth ponders the natural and timely death of certain GUI options
08:16:45 <Alberth> In my view, the biggest problem with NewGRF specs is that there is no textual source, just HTML formatted code. Impossible to maintain outside the wiki
08:17:12 <andythenorth> something like doxygen would be much better....
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08:17:16 <planetmaker> Alberth: is it really a problem?
08:17:44 <OwenS> andythenorth: Doxygen is really not suited for the NewGRF specs
08:17:50 <planetmaker> A wiki has also a changelog. But agreed, not the same kind one would expect of a technical document
08:18:14 <planetmaker> Hm... the technical docs I frequently have to deal with have a changelog page in front
08:18:28 <Alberth> OwenS: no-one said Doxygen, but eg restructured text would be an improvement in my opinion
08:18:29 <planetmaker> but they are word format :-P
08:18:49 <OwenS> planetmaker: I regularly deal with PDFs which have it at the back
08:19:27 <planetmaker> Having it all in one document would be a BIG document, Alberth
08:19:50 <planetmaker> and the question is whether having it separate, documentation and specs, is really worth it.
08:19:56 <OwenS> planetmaker: Believe me, there are some really huge technical docs
08:20:12 <Alberth> andythenorth: there is no tracking of which options are used and which are not. That makes that question awkward at best.
08:20:25 <planetmaker> Though... much of it is explanation, not only documentation
08:20:40 <Alberth> planetmaker: You can split the file, I'd expect
08:20:44 <planetmaker> OwenS: yes, I know. I get mine from ESA. And they know how to make lengthy ones
08:21:02 * andythenorth learnt how to use the zope web framework from reading python docstrings....
08:21:10 <planetmaker> manual file that is
08:21:23 <planetmaker> and that's only a tiny sub-sub-project
08:21:25 <OwenS> planetmaker: Doubt it compares to the Intel Architecture Reference Manual. 6500 pages (admittedly 5 volumes/5 PDFs)
08:21:38 <andythenorth> shame the code for newgrf implementation in the game can't be self-documenting :P
08:21:39 <planetmaker> OwenS: I bet they do
08:22:01 <OwenS> planetmaker: Presumably they have page counts?
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08:22:34 <planetmaker> If I add the docs of the single sub-sub projects together I'm in that range, too
08:22:56 <Alberth> andythenorth: the binary data of a compiled program is also not self-documenting, so why would newgrf be different?
08:23:02 <planetmaker> I've several files on my shelf relating to that project :-)
08:23:03 <OwenS> (And of course you also need AMD's equivilant. Another 6000 pages)
08:23:27 <andythenorth> Alberth: I suspect it's not possible :|
08:23:54 <Alberth> andythenorth: literate programming perhaps :p
08:23:57 <andythenorth> However between the docstrings and reading the python, I don't need any further docs for this
08:24:24 <planetmaker> OwenS: any kilogramm launched into space produces roughly 1000 times more weight in printed documentation ;-)
08:24:44 <planetmaker> or put differently: every kilogramm produces one meter of files
08:24:54 <OwenS> Think that somewhere ESA have a library dedicated to the ISS? :P
08:25:00 <planetmaker> which is not out of scale at all
08:25:22 <Alberth> andythenorth: yep, docstrings are very powerful. Of course the language also helps
08:25:50 <andythenorth> industries with their own siding....possible in future? Or just a redundant idea?
08:26:20 <planetmaker> andythenorth: it doesn't make sense conceptually IMHO
08:26:41 <planetmaker> it's redundant as you can build your own station
08:26:42 <andythenorth> how would it deal with railtypes for example
08:26:51 <planetmaker> and things like that ^
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08:26:59 <Yexo> it would also be limited to a single company
08:27:14 <planetmaker> Yexo: not really. Like the oil rig airport
08:27:32 <planetmaker> you can abuse it to share cargo with other companies
08:27:46 <OwenS> planetmaker: No, think: One company would attach tracks to it, others have to use own station
08:27:56 <Yexo> it works for an airport because multiple companies can use that one airport, that isn't possible with an industry railstation because the track in front of it is owned by one of them
08:28:02 <planetmaker> or attache tracks to the other side :-)
08:28:26 <planetmaker> but of course it's not a nice solution
08:28:34 <OwenS> planetmaker: Then you cause all sorts of hell. My knowledge of the code makes me say that would cause the signal engine to crash
08:28:55 <Yexo> OwenS: no, it just causes your trains to crash
08:28:55 <planetmaker> OwenS: it needs a bit of work. IS2 is what it needs then ;-)
08:29:27 <planetmaker> we agreed upon that, yes ;-)
08:29:29 <OwenS> Yexo: The signal engine only permits one company's signals in the signal buffer. Assertion failure. crash.
08:29:37 <andythenorth> planetmaker: let's take some GUI options away....
08:29:38 <OwenS> IS2 obviously fixes this
08:29:49 <andythenorth> why can't the generator type be an advanced setting?
08:29:57 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I offered you one ;-)
08:30:15 <planetmaker> now you want again more? :-P
08:30:28 <andythenorth> yes but you offered one that is needed
08:30:45 <planetmaker> smoothness and hillyness?
08:30:59 <andythenorth> smoothness affects coasts and noise
08:31:05 <andythenorth> hillyness affects map height
08:31:23 <planetmaker> as are the others
08:31:36 * andythenorth makes an unfounded assertion....
08:31:48 <andythenorth> surely *everyone* uses Terragenesis?
08:31:59 <planetmaker> a wrong assertion, andythenorth :-)
08:32:16 * andythenorth wonders about additional land generators as add-ons
08:32:20 <planetmaker> I know quite some people who use the original from time to time
08:32:21 <Rubidium> very wrong assumption
08:32:44 * andythenorth wonders about some secondary options, grouped together, using the brown buttons, not yellow
08:33:02 <planetmaker> andythenorth: and then have 10 brown buttons?
08:33:31 <Yexo> andythenorth: the original map generator was broken for over a month before 1.0.0- (beta1 or RC1), but after the release a bug report came in within a few days
08:33:54 * andythenorth considers removing things as a way of testing who uses what
08:34:00 <andythenorth> bug reports == evidence
08:34:11 <planetmaker> bad bad style, andythenorth :-)
08:34:23 <andythenorth> 'random' gui....
08:34:43 <andythenorth> well....A/B testing not exactly random
08:34:45 <planetmaker> just add a button "help improve usability and log user behaviour" ;-)
08:35:56 <andythenorth> ok, so no-one seems to want to be eliminating map options.
08:36:08 <andythenorth> and I can't be having another day of arguing GUI points :D
08:36:20 <andythenorth> maybe we have to improve what we've got
08:36:40 <planetmaker> first we need to improve what we've got
08:37:22 <andythenorth> so ignore the layout....the 'flow' of the map screen needs a bit of work
08:37:31 <andythenorth> what's the first task? Choose heightmap / generator?
08:38:12 <planetmaker> heightmap is first... actually it could probably be unified with map generator, true
08:38:49 <planetmaker> which is not a bad choice...
08:38:53 <planetmaker> darn. More work :-)
08:39:07 <andythenorth> so could 'heightmap' be an option on the generator dropdown?
08:39:34 <andythenorth> or does that mean extending widgets with complicated new handlers?
08:39:48 * andythenorth wonders how selected menu option is handled anyway
08:40:30 <andythenorth> widgets/dropdown.cpp?
08:41:15 <Alberth> virtual void OnDropdownSelect(int widget, int index)
08:44:20 <planetmaker> andythenorth: Heightmap can be a choice
08:44:32 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19823 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Fix: Ensure that both texts of the newgrf gui download button fit.
08:45:10 * andythenorth tries to understand widget code
08:45:30 <andythenorth> so select is an event that is fired?
08:45:57 <Alberth> opening a drop down creates a new window
08:46:44 * andythenorth thinks what the question actually is
08:46:48 <Alberth> clicking in that dropdown window gets forwarded to the original creator of the dropdown with the OnDropdownSelect()
08:47:32 <planetmaker> hm... how do I know whether a file gets chosen or the saveload dialogue is closed without choice made?
08:47:48 <planetmaker> can I get feedback from that somehow?
08:48:23 <Alberth> the saveload dialogue should do something with a click at a file, I guess
08:49:33 <planetmaker> which I'm trying to understand, but so far it went without conclusion :-)
08:50:38 <Alberth> I didn't look into inter-window communication very much, so I know less than you in this case :)
08:51:04 <andythenorth> current newgrf gui must have an example of it?
08:51:51 <andythenorth> handling a file being chosen or close without choice?
08:52:12 <Alberth> it has a list of available grfs in _all_grfs
08:52:24 <Alberth> it also has a list of required grfs
08:52:42 <Alberth> that's it, files are not actually accessed in the gui
08:53:37 <Alberth> ie you select from a list of data, and/or shuffle available grfs to used/required grfs
08:56:37 * andythenorth wonders if planetmaker's real code will again take same time as photoshop
08:56:59 <Alberth> the add-newgrf gui uses InvalidateWindowData(WC_GAME_OPTIONS, 0, 2); to notify its parent of a change
08:59:49 <planetmaker> andythenorth: that part will take here considerably longer ;-)
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09:13:29 <andythenorth> it's not intended to be polished, more like thinking in pictures...
09:14:20 <planetmaker> without the separator line, yes
09:14:39 <andythenorth> well that's changeable
09:14:41 <planetmaker> the latter is more trouble than it's worth
09:15:34 <planetmaker> and you don't make map size in the first line of the options which I find odd. But leave snow line height alone, right-aligned in the first of those following the map choice
09:15:55 <andythenorth> I haven't started on the stuff below the separator :)
09:16:06 <andythenorth> the two lines above the separator could be consolidated to one line, but the heightmap name would be truncated.....and there could be significant issues with translation space
09:16:22 <andythenorth> (i.e. room for translated strings)
09:16:24 <planetmaker> they should stay two lines
09:16:30 <planetmaker> for the very reasons you mention
09:16:51 <andythenorth> so separators are trouble?
09:17:57 <planetmaker> except you possibly define it as a void button or so
09:18:01 <andythenorth> what about plain old whitespace?
09:18:30 <planetmaker> well. Maybe it's easy. I didn't dwell on it so far
09:19:06 <planetmaker> oh, it should not touch the tab's borders
09:19:12 <planetmaker> so the tab stays as one
09:19:18 <planetmaker> with some space to the border
09:19:34 <planetmaker> but... yeah. "Just another" horizontal widget with three sub-widgets might work
09:20:15 <Alberth> two WWT_INSET panels underneath each other?
09:20:46 <planetmaker> I'd try a very tiny inset one for that. Or a recessed button
09:21:28 <andythenorth> ...the size of a height map....we show that because it's a "recommended size"?
09:21:50 <planetmaker> for now the unwanted mode change from generate to heightmap when the heightmap selction is actually canceled is a bigger concern, though ;-)
09:22:04 <andythenorth> I would say "heightmap size" but that doesn't contain the implication that it can be changed
09:22:06 <planetmaker> it's the size of the bitmap
09:22:21 <andythenorth> planetmaker: you solve the big problems....I'll draw some pixels :P
09:22:24 <planetmaker> map size defines the map size then still
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09:25:23 <moblin_> hello, does openttd have a benchmark/fps feature?
09:27:38 <planetmaker> impatiant little brag
09:30:58 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I pushed a small update which fixes the visibility of some widgets
09:31:42 <planetmaker> layout didn't change, though
09:32:19 <planetmaker> and enjoy 'make run' :-P
09:32:58 <andythenorth> thinking that heightmap size can go after the name. it shouldn't need a label
09:33:44 <Yexo> andythenorth: if I had a heightmap I wouldn't go look in that dropdown to load it
09:34:02 <andythenorth> where would you look?
09:34:21 <Yexo> either there or in the main menu
09:34:38 <andythenorth> and if the separate button doesn't exist, where would you look?
09:34:42 <planetmaker> Yexo: the main menu should get rid of all those different unnecessary buttons...
09:35:09 <planetmaker> Maybe it should be called "Map source" instead of "Create map using"
09:35:28 <Yexo> andythenorth: if there were 3 radio buttons (original/terragenesis/heightmap) then it would be obvious
09:35:41 <planetmaker> urgs. Radio buttons
09:35:50 <andythenorth> radio buttons aren't a convention in Openttd though...
09:35:56 <andythenorth> we have to live with dropdowns....
09:35:57 <Yexo> I'm not saying there should be, but in that case it's obvious that you can load a heightmap that way
09:36:10 <planetmaker> you've got a point...
09:36:17 * andythenorth agrees with the point
09:37:08 <Weeknie> Why aren't there any radio buttons in openTTD anyway, is that impossible with C++ or?
09:37:34 <Yexo> Label: "Heightmap:", with dropdown choices "Generate with original generator" / "Generate with TerraGenesis" / "Load custom heightmap" ?
09:37:45 <Yexo> those texts are probably too long :(
09:37:51 <andythenorth> hey the concept could work though
09:38:03 <andythenorth> if we work on the basis that they are all heightmaps
09:38:20 <planetmaker> Yexo: andythenorth it could simply be made using three normal buttons
09:38:36 <planetmaker> and when one of those is clicked the other two become the opposite state
09:38:45 <planetmaker> it's not exactly radio, but it's similar
09:38:46 <andythenorth> Heightmap: original generator | terragenesis | load custom heightmap
09:39:22 <andythenorth> more fricking buttons :)
09:39:34 <planetmaker> Yeah... then the current solution works just as well
09:39:43 <andythenorth> we're not especially short of space here
09:40:01 <andythenorth> I like Yexo's idea of "they're all heightmaps"
09:40:09 <Yexo> <andythenorth> Heightmap: original generator | terragenesis | load custom heightmap <- that is a good suggestion
09:40:12 <andythenorth> might baffle existing players, but they'll learn
09:40:24 <andythenorth> we'll get bug reports for a few months, then they'll figure it out
09:40:56 <andythenorth> Maybe it doesn't need a label? The climates aren't labelled....
09:41:06 <andythenorth> just three buttons
09:41:16 <andythenorth> Original generator | Terragenesis | Load custom heightmap
09:41:27 <andythenorth> it's not pretty but it might be obvious
09:41:34 <Yexo> if you make it buttons instead of a dropdown you don't need a label
09:41:45 <planetmaker> so we keep track of the good ideas?
09:41:48 <andythenorth> they would need some kind of grouping graphically
09:42:04 <planetmaker> andythenorth: just horizontally next to eachother. In the top
09:42:21 <andythenorth> with sufficient white space below....
09:42:22 <planetmaker> and the heightmap name goes in the line below, if selected
09:42:54 <planetmaker> andythenorth: you could add some of those to a place which will be remembered. Maybe to the openttd-gui project.
09:43:05 <planetmaker> at least when we agreed upon that it was a good proposal :-P
09:43:15 <andythenorth> I'll commit some later
09:43:25 <planetmaker> just add them as files or documents there
09:49:45 <Ammler> andythenorth: planetmaker, can't you put the tabs buttons one level down?
09:51:23 <Ammler> dunno, if that is possible
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09:53:37 <planetmaker> I still don't get what you mean, Ammler
09:53:52 <planetmaker> you should start to make mockups to explain your words ;-)
09:54:57 <Ammler> oh, well, if it needs explaination, I might be wrong... :-)
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09:56:52 <andythenorth> Ammler: do you mean the z-plane / layer depth?
09:57:23 <Ammler> the boarder and the button should be one level
09:57:45 <Ammler> so the tabs look like they are "in" the boarder on the tab level
10:00:06 <Ammler> yep, that, doesn't that look better?
10:00:35 <andythenorth> it does sit easier on the eye yes
10:01:27 <tokai> the registers looks a bit strange; I guess you need to make a custom widget for that. :)
10:01:42 <planetmaker> maybe they need some padding
10:02:06 <planetmaker> what do you mean with "register", tokai ?
10:02:37 * andythenorth explores genworld_gui.cpp
10:02:58 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I guess the padding could be set using SetPIP(..)
10:03:10 * andythenorth takes a crash course in gui code
10:03:12 <planetmaker> but I didn't quite figure out how that works
10:03:16 <andythenorth> expect crashes :P
10:03:31 <tokai> There is also a style randomness in that window.
10:03:43 <andythenorth> SetPIP is an optional parameter?
10:04:20 <Weeknie> Andythenorth and Planetmaker, you are somewhere around GMT aren't you?
10:04:34 <tokai> most labels don't use title capitalization (Map *s*ize, etc.), while "Random *S*eed" does it properly. Same for window title.
10:04:55 <andythenorth> yep the Title Case is wrong in quite a lot of that dialog
10:05:02 <andythenorth> I'm fixing it in the mockups as I go
10:05:29 <Weeknie> Sorry for interrupting, go on with w/e you're doing:P
10:05:31 <tokai> andythenorth: well.. the title case is correct; that it's missing here and here isn't :)
10:06:03 <tokai> ok, just made sure we fix in correct direction :)
10:08:29 <Eddi|zuHause> <Weeknie> Andythenorth and Planetmaker, you are somewhere around GMT aren't you? <- that's likely true for 90% of the people here
10:08:42 <andythenorth> planetmaker: is a 'None' button with blue label expected :P
10:08:48 <andythenorth> or did I just cause that?
10:09:16 <Weeknie> Eddi|zuHause, I guess you're right yeah, it's quite busy here
10:10:05 <Eddi|zuHause> despite the "business", this game is extremely europe-centric
10:11:06 <Mazur> Whereas the other 99.9999% of games are extremely US-centric.
10:14:04 <Mazur> Well, Football Managers games aren't, but that's because most Merkins don't get the game.
10:17:18 <planetmaker> andythenorth: that's not a button but a text.... which should show none, if no heightmap is selected
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10:18:14 <planetmaker> actually... yes, the button has label 'none'
10:18:20 <planetmaker> which is not quite as it should be ;-)
10:18:36 <Hyronymus> I'm trying to run grfwizard in w7
10:18:45 <Hyronymus> it yields a runtime 53 error
10:18:53 <Hyronymus> but not the name of the missing file
10:19:26 <Hyronymus> that's the easy solution that still leaves me with the problem ;)
10:20:58 <yorick> Hyronymus: don't use w7
10:21:27 <PeterT> yes, that's the ONLY solution!
10:22:03 <Hyronymus> running it as xp sp3 doesn't do much either
10:22:11 <Weeknie> Hyronymus, don't worry, you're not the only one with windows 7, you're not alone
10:22:15 <Weeknie> But I can't help you with your problem:P
10:22:32 <Hyronymus> thinking about a topic dig :P
10:22:33 <PeterT> have you searched for the runtime error on google, Hyronymus?
10:22:50 <PeterT> what did it come up with?
10:22:57 <Hyronymus> and it should yield a filename
10:23:08 <Hyronymus> which, if you read carefully, I said it doesn't
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10:46:49 <Weeknie> Hyronymus, when did you get that error again?
10:47:06 <Hyronymus> when trying to decode a grf file with GRFwizard
10:47:09 <Weeknie> I'm on a windows 7 machine, perhaps I could try to compile it myself, see if the same thing happens here
10:47:21 <Hyronymus> I start to believe it has something to do with long directory names
10:47:40 <Hyronymus> grfcodec complains too namely
10:47:52 <Hyronymus> it ends after C:\Program
10:48:05 <Ammler> or it has issues with spaces in path
10:48:12 <Hyronymus> can't find out the DOS name for the dir
10:48:12 <Weeknie> I think that's the problem yeah
10:48:18 <Weeknie> After program comes a space
10:48:24 <planetmaker> spaces in the path can be bad
10:48:53 <Hyronymus> I thought there was an easy way to find out the DOS name of a ptth
10:49:14 <Mazur> That's wjhat they _want_ you to believe.
10:49:19 <Weeknie> The dos name for program files is PROGRA~1
10:49:29 <Weeknie> Do you have any other folders in that path with spaces in em?
10:50:25 <Weeknie> Type out the complete path please
10:50:31 <Weeknie> DOS names are quite easy:P
10:50:33 <Hyronymus> but on w7 you have program files and program files (x86)
10:51:02 <Hyronymus> the latter, program files (x86)
10:51:04 <Weeknie> I think the x86 is ~2 instead of ~1
10:51:13 <Weeknie> Lemme test something here
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10:51:56 <Weeknie> PROGRA~1 refers to program files
10:52:10 <Hyronymus> hmm, can't paste an address into the location dir in grfwizard
10:52:20 <Weeknie> And PROGRA~2 to program files x86
10:52:24 <Alberth> You type the path in a command window? then perhaps add " around the path?
10:52:36 <Ammler> Hyronymus: why not move the grf to somwhere without spaces?
10:52:59 <Weeknie> Just move it to your root, aka straigt in C
10:53:05 <Weeknie> It ought to be able to find it there:P
10:53:09 <Weeknie> Else it's just fucked
10:53:36 <Hyronymus> still the same error
10:53:49 <Hyronymus> moved it to user/documents/openttd
10:53:53 <Weeknie> Mazur, you're talng to me?:P
10:54:03 <Weeknie> Hyronymus, just move it to your C
10:54:13 <Weeknie> Mazur, sorry in that case, redmonded it is :P
10:54:45 <Mazur> A.k.a. the Hellmouth, the Hell of Gates.
10:55:50 <Hyronymus> let's try grfcodec in cmd
10:56:32 <Weeknie> I just discovered there's a ProgramData map in my C
10:56:53 <Weeknie> Another one of them hidden folders
10:57:15 <Hyronymus> grfcodec works from cmd
10:57:36 <andythenorth> Alberth: where is the source that would let me figure out setpip?
10:58:51 <Alberth> SetPIP Set additional pre/inter/post child widget space. <-- this is enough?
10:59:14 <Alberth> otherwise, right here :)
10:59:39 <planetmaker> it determins widget separation, right
10:59:53 <planetmaker> how does that relate to SetPadding(top, right, bottom, left)?
11:00:02 <andythenorth> is there some kind of box model akin to dom rendering
11:00:28 <Alberth> padding is extra space around the widget where you add it to.
11:00:56 <Alberth> internally, pip is moved to padding
11:01:22 <Alberth> (padding of the childs, that is)
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11:11:24 <Hyronymus> planetmaker: what is needed to add PBI support to the Dutch Trainset?
11:18:27 <andythenorth> babies are incompatible with widget cide
11:18:44 <andythenorth> wrong kind of child element I guess :P
11:23:00 <Alberth> with widgets, the childs decide the size&fill capacities of the parent, so in some respects it is the reverse :)
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11:42:12 <Hyronymus> did anyone ever make a palette for paint.net with the appropriate decoded colours
11:43:08 <Ammler> isn't Purno a paint.net user?
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12:15:36 <Weeknie> Is visualSVN any good?
12:16:33 <planetmaker> <Hyronymus> planetmaker: what is needed to add PBI support to the Dutch Trainset? <-- I don't know what the DutchSet already has. It should be sufficient to add cargo class support.
12:16:38 <planetmaker> Which I assume it already has.
12:16:59 <planetmaker> One just might want to go through the cargos and see whether it works for all cargos and no nasty surprises are there
12:17:08 <planetmaker> possibly modifying the cargo translation table
12:17:20 <andythenorth> planetmaker....a long time ago I had the idea to increase the size of many gui widgets from 12px to 16px.....this looks much easier than it was at the time. I wonder if it's generally desirable though?
12:17:23 <planetmaker> of course one could go and add dedicated sprites for some cargos
12:17:40 <planetmaker> andythenorth, not generally
12:17:46 <andythenorth> btw PBI seemed to have incomplete class support when I looked
12:18:06 <planetmaker> Doing that... is another topic. It would mean to add zoom-levels or GUI-size choice somewhere. And do it properly
12:18:10 <andythenorth> planetmaker: my thinking was to increase hit target sizes. I miss buttons a lot
12:18:12 <planetmaker> it does need much graphical work
12:18:28 <andythenorth> and my next question would have been....should that be some kind of skin / theme choice?
12:18:34 <planetmaker> it would need re-doing ~150 sprites in several sizes
12:18:35 <Hyronymus> planetmaker: I think additional graphics will be nice
12:18:45 <planetmaker> andythenorth, it could be newgrf even
12:18:56 <Hyronymus> but I would be thrilled already if I could just load PBI stuff
12:19:08 <planetmaker> a newgrf which just changes the sprites. hm... but then it doesn't change button size.
12:19:12 <andythenorth> many buttons don't appear to use sprites (text only)
12:19:17 <planetmaker> So, no, it needs support from both ends. Graphics and code
12:19:25 <planetmaker> But that's totally out of scope of what we do now
12:20:06 <planetmaker> andythenorth, if you change your text size, it will grow accordingly.
12:20:09 <andythenorth> I was thinking of a different (personal) project, rather than as part of this project
12:20:26 <planetmaker> openttd.cfg has your default text sizes
12:20:28 <andythenorth> that's in the config text file?
12:20:33 <andythenorth> I tried that once...it sort of works
12:20:34 <Alberth> huh, buttons resize according to their contents
12:20:56 <planetmaker> andythenorth, if that's changed, then graphics can be re-scaled using a newgrf
12:20:57 <andythenorth> to me it just looks like changing the setpip values around text
12:21:02 <Alberth> bigger sprite -> bigger buttons
12:21:02 <planetmaker> so... basically everything's there
12:21:17 <planetmaker> Alberth, but not for text buttons ;-)
12:30:57 * andythenorth tee hees at some awesome accidents with the widget code
12:31:27 <andythenorth> make run is rather handy
12:33:43 <andythenorth> Alberth: have you written a lot HTML 4 / CSS?
12:34:17 <andythenorth> the tree / DOM structure must be a common pattern
12:34:31 <andythenorth> widgets look pretty similar to html DOM
12:34:48 <Alberth> I studied CS, compiler construction. Lots of trees there :)
12:35:06 <andythenorth> padding is applied to the outside of a widget?
12:35:16 <Alberth> I borrowed the boxes from TeX and Tcl/Tk
12:35:28 <andythenorth> so if the parent has no background colour set....no background
12:35:30 <Alberth> yes, padding is space around the widget
12:35:41 <andythenorth> that's the equivalent of css 'margin' property then
12:35:54 <andythenorth> is there a widget property for padding inside the widget?
12:36:25 <Alberth> otherwise, add a widget inside
12:36:35 <OwenS> andythenorth: In CSS, padding is inside, margin is outside
12:36:51 <andythenorth> yes thanks....I've only been writing it for 10 years :P
12:36:52 <Alberth> and there are WWT_EMPTY and NWID_SPACER widgets, which are invisible
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12:37:42 <Alberth> why would you need space inside a widget, if you can also add it to its childs?
12:37:48 <andythenorth> excitingly you have 'COLOUR' rather than 'COLOR'
12:38:08 <andythenorth> Alberth: let me try something
12:38:21 * Alberth lets andythenorth try something
12:41:27 <andythenorth> I thought setting COLOUR_GREY on the parent might fix that
12:42:14 <planetmaker> andythenorth, you need a bigger panel or inset
12:42:16 <Alberth> no, you need to add a WWT_PANEL background
12:42:50 <Alberth> there are probably quite a few such spots
12:42:57 <andythenorth> as a widget, in between NWID_HORIZONTAL and the group?
12:43:43 <andythenorth> and closed by EndContainer(),
12:43:49 <planetmaker> andythenorth, the easiest solution would probably be SetMinimalSize(1, ysize)
12:44:10 <andythenorth> ha my attempt produced bad results :)
12:45:47 <andythenorth> that worked, but is wrong
12:46:39 <Alberth> around the horizontal container
12:48:23 <Alberth> planetmaker, andythenorth: simplest solution is to increase the padding with the WD_* constants in widget_type.h :)
12:48:59 <Alberth> those are spacings between border and contents of every widget type
12:49:33 <andythenorth> I'll give it a go
12:49:36 <planetmaker> oh, I thought padding changed the spacing and didn't add to the widget size
12:52:25 <andythenorth> Alberth: I can't find the constants in widget_type.h sorry :(
12:53:47 <Alberth> oh, src/window_gui.h apparently
12:58:51 * andythenorth enjoys the luxury of 16px-wide scrollbars :D
12:59:07 <andythenorth> but seriously, am I going to have to patch that every time?
13:01:38 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
13:03:28 <planetmaker> andythenorth, you could probably just modify the scrollbar widget
13:06:36 <andythenorth> mmmm...bigger title bars :)
13:11:00 <andythenorth> Alberth: all the widget spacings are defines yes? So there's no way to change them when the game is running? (they are fixed at compile time?)
13:11:43 <Alberth> not without changing the source
13:12:18 <andythenorth> and changing the default widget sizes after 16 years is going to be....controversial :P
13:12:28 <Alberth> euhm, if you refer to the WD_* constants, at least
13:13:00 * andythenorth files that under 'projects for another day'
13:13:41 <Alberth> in 1.0, all widget sizes get decided based on their contents, so there is no real 'default widget size' any more.
13:14:10 <Alberth> ie if you change the font, or use different sprites, the widgets will change
13:14:17 <andythenorth> but there are default heights and widths for some elements such as scrollbars
13:14:28 <andythenorth> which have no contents...
13:15:03 <andythenorth> ...but another time :)
13:15:12 <andythenorth> there is enough work in progress unshipped :o
13:15:18 <Alberth> I don't know whether a scrollbar size gets computed based on the arrow sprite size. It should be, though
13:16:58 <Alberth> You see a lot of users complain for openttd display being too small. However, gui change is just a small part of that. We'd need the extra zoom thingie to be finished for that, I think.
13:17:45 <planetmaker> I agree with that statement
13:17:58 <OwenS> Alberth: I just wish the default font was readable
13:18:11 <Alberth> OwenS: select a bigger font
13:18:17 <planetmaker> Zephyris proposed quite a decent zoom algorithm which would - as it looks - provide even acceptable results with unchanged sprites
13:18:26 <OwenS> planetmaker: hq2x/hq4x?
13:18:49 <planetmaker> I just know it's somewhere in the zoomlevels thread
13:19:04 <planetmaker> most probable that is ;-)
13:19:20 <OwenS> hq*x does a phenomenal job
13:19:32 <OwenS> (On hand drawn artwork anyway)
13:19:41 <planetmaker> I think that was it
13:20:06 <planetmaker> And with that implemented as additional zoom levels, the 32bpp zoom level thing could continue much better
13:20:23 <planetmaker> And it would still be playable nicely with just 8bpp.
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13:20:50 <planetmaker> But then there needs to be a way to get these zoom levels exposed to newgrf, too
13:20:57 <OwenS> At 4x zoom things only look "acceptable" instead of "great", but its still a phenomenal job
13:20:58 <planetmaker> People will want that
13:21:39 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
13:26:02 * andythenorth goes loopy in a world of widget nesting
13:28:01 <andythenorth> planetmaker: the tabs in the game gen gui....does each tab have to define the button widgets for all tabs (if that makes sense)?
13:28:41 <planetmaker> each tab does currently, yes
13:29:11 <planetmaker> or you need to define a new button widget without border or so. And change the WWT_TAB widget, too
13:29:15 <andythenorth> I have accomplished changing the tab padding to Ammler's suggestion
13:29:19 <andythenorth> it's a nano-scale victory
13:29:28 <planetmaker> yes, I have that, too :-P
13:29:44 <planetmaker> Once I knew about padding it was nice :-)
13:29:48 <andythenorth> committed anything recently?
13:30:11 <planetmaker> I don't think I commited that
13:30:32 <planetmaker> just use hg pull and you'll be up to date :-)
13:33:24 <andythenorth> Map edges...there has to be a better way....
13:34:14 * andythenorth wonders....does anyone *ever* write down the random seed to use again?
13:34:30 <Alberth> you can query it in the console
13:34:58 <andythenorth> so I'm wondering if the seed needs to be shown / quite so prominent....
13:35:37 <planetmaker> does it have a png?
13:37:12 <andythenorth> so for what reasons would I click 'randomise'?
13:38:57 <Alberth> The 'check online content' text is too long :(
13:39:00 <OwenS> Alberth: I'd add a bit of padding around the widgets inside the groups (Active newgrf files/inactive newgrf files). At present, it doesn't look like theres a border; additionally, active (because of the listbox's proximity) looks raised
13:40:20 <andythenorth> Alberth: I discussed with frosch....we thought 'Get Add-Ons' would be sufficient
13:40:39 <andythenorth> however that was in a slightly different context
13:42:15 <Alberth> there are actually 2 possible texts there, Find missing content online and Check Online Content
13:44:53 <andythenorth> when in doubt, say less....
13:44:56 <Ammler> Alberth: if someone configures as game with newgrfs, you use at least 10 different newgrfs
13:46:31 <Alberth> Adding another such column is not going to fit
13:49:32 <Alberth> I see no way to improve it. You can enlarge the window, perhaps it should be bigger by default even
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13:50:35 <Alberth> the only way would be to make the info panel go under both lists, but then it will get too short to display all text, and adding a 3rd vertical scrollbar is not possible currently
13:51:33 <planetmaker> I like the new look, Alberth
13:51:43 <planetmaker> especially the differently coloured title for the detailed information
13:52:14 * planetmaker would like to assigne "3rd scrollbar" to Alberth :-P
13:52:26 <planetmaker> gah... today is typo day here :-(
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13:54:04 <Weeknie> How do I get the subversion repo from the server copied to local?
13:54:14 <Weeknie> I tried import but it sais authentication failed
13:54:20 <Alberth> OwenS: the spacing between the buttons and the available list is too small indeed.
13:54:32 <Weeknie> and there's nothing said about authentication on the development page on openttd.org
13:56:13 <Alberth> Weeknie: normally 'checkout' of trunk (svn://svn.openttd.org/trunk)
13:57:12 <Alberth> in particular, you don't want to pull svn://svn.openttd.org/ !!
13:57:33 <Weeknie> But pulling trunk now
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13:57:41 <Weeknie> Thanks for the warning anyway
13:57:44 * andythenorth has obsessed quite enough about the newgrf GUI and doesn't want to offend Alberth :o
13:58:10 <andythenorth> but I wonder if we're swapping two easy-to-use separate lists for one window with two hard-to-use lists?
13:58:54 <OwenS> andythenorth: no. The current system, even if easier (And I disagree there), is a real pain to use
13:59:02 <andythenorth> also planetmaker you said comparing the lists was the *most* important reason to you for changing this gui? But you can't compare these lists.
13:59:22 <andythenorth> in GUI design, what users say they want, and what they like when they see it are often different :P
13:59:41 <andythenorth> but enough. he who writes the code gets the final say
13:59:53 <planetmaker> andythenorth, I still like the adjacent view more
14:00:04 <planetmaker> But truncated detailed descriptions are worse
14:00:08 <planetmaker> so rather this view
14:00:40 <andythenorth> the move up / move down buttons are going to baffle a lot of users
14:00:52 <Weeknie> What are all the different makefiles for?
14:01:11 <Alberth> generation of other makefiles mostly
14:01:23 <Weeknie> I'm a little confused there
14:01:47 <Alberth> run ./configure, that generates a makefile that you can use
14:02:26 <Weeknie> Oh I see, I missed the configure script in there
14:02:59 <Weeknie> OH wow there's a readme lol
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14:06:51 * andythenorth does some satisfyingly analogue drilling
14:09:36 <Weeknie> What are those sq files?
14:10:17 <planetmaker> squirrels. and nuts :-P
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14:12:10 <Weeknie> The configure doesn't generate a makefile
14:12:29 <OwenS> Unless something went wrong
14:13:25 <Weeknie> For some reason my windows version has all .in attached:S
14:14:24 <Alberth> that is not the makefile you want
14:16:18 <Weeknie> I'm gonna try this again
14:16:28 <OwenS> Alberth: Makefile.am? I didn't think OTTD used automake...
14:17:13 <Weeknie> It doesn't like spaces...
14:18:22 <Alberth> OwenS: it says "I Makefile.am" (ignored) in hg, so I guess it gets generated somewhere
14:18:40 <Weeknie> It gets generated by the makefile
14:18:58 <Weeknie> iirc the build here was compaining about it not existing
14:19:05 <Weeknie> Like all the other makefiles
14:19:10 <Weeknie> generated by the configure script btw
14:19:30 <Alberth> config.lib generates it, it seems
14:25:13 <Weeknie> Why does this damn thing not work...
14:25:29 * Alberth finds the new intro screen in the 1.0.1 version.
14:26:11 <Weeknie> Alberth, what would be the non-alphanumeric character in C:\Cpp_projects\OpenTTD_Source ?
14:26:15 <Weeknie> Can't it live with _?
14:27:18 <Alberth> I don't know, me and windows don't co-operate very well
14:27:51 <Alberth> so I switched to Linux since kernel 0.13 (in 1994 or so)
14:28:27 <OwenS> Alberth: Well, you have some 10 years on my switch. 'Course, I didn't even have a PC in 1994
14:28:50 <Alberth> I bought one to be able to run Linux :)
14:29:08 <Weeknie> Well I just don't get it
14:29:14 <OwenS> Alberth: Plus, I don't think I'd have had much success with Linux when I was 3 :p
14:29:29 <Weeknie> Lol, OwenS, I think I'll have to agree with you on that one:P
14:29:53 <Alberth> OwenS: why not, banging on a keyboard works with every OS :)
14:30:12 <Weeknie> Lol, baning on the reboot button only works with windows though
14:30:20 <Weeknie> Thanks for the help anwyay:p
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14:37:57 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19824 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Fix [FS#3837] (19799): aircraft would be heading to someone
14:40:11 <Alberth> now we never find out where someone is located
14:49:19 <planetmaker> Alberth, somewhere in the wastelands :-)
14:54:56 <andythenorth> along with all the missing code :P
14:55:56 <planetmaker> that's the name of the map being played on the cargodist server :-P
14:56:02 <planetmaker> that's where we saw it first
14:56:18 * andythenorth is deeply unhappy with the shading of the FIRS Textile Mill
14:59:17 <Wasila> Anyone wanna help out at the 32bpp project?
14:59:31 <Wasila> We need coders/artists/people to do z1&2 (in particular)/administrators
15:03:03 <glx> would be better to do something compatible with standard openttd
15:04:11 <Wasila> As the project gains momentum a patch will most likely be made
15:04:23 <Wasila> making graphics in z0 and then turning them into z2 is a hell of al ot easier than doing it the other way round
15:04:47 <Wasila> And if someone wants to turn z0 into z2, we could use that in default OpenTTD too
15:04:55 <OwenS> Wasila: Why is your naming scheme different from standard OpenTTD?
15:05:25 <OwenS> My understanding is that extra zoom levels uses different names for 32bpp sprites than standard OpenTTD
15:05:55 <Wasila> The files are labeled, e.g. 204_z2
15:06:15 <Wasila> Is that what you mean?
15:06:22 <glx> I think there should be at least a compatible name
15:06:31 <Wasila> I don't know about this kind of stuff
15:06:36 <Wasila> You would have to speak to Jupix
15:06:44 <Wasila> Those are necessary, glx
15:06:53 <Wasila> since z0-2 are in the same file
15:07:21 <glx> yes but there could be one without zX and usable in standard openttd
15:07:37 <Wasila> That would be a different project
15:07:45 <glx> extra zoom should be an addition, not a replacement
15:08:02 <Wasila> I mean, the repo is geared towards xtra-zoom
15:08:12 <OwenS> Wasila: Yes. BUT WHY CAN THEY NOT BE BACKWARDS COMPATIBLE?
15:08:12 <Wasila> So most files there are actually only in z0
15:08:22 <Wasila> I DO NOT KNOW BECAUSE I DID NOT DESIGN THE SYSTEM.
15:08:29 <OwenS> Its stupid. Its irritating. The quantity of confusion it generates is staggering
15:08:33 <Wasila> Renaimg the files can't be too difficult
15:09:06 <Wasila> Many artists have agreed anyway that z2 32bpp is a waste of time
15:09:07 <glx> the problem is most 32bpp are incompatible with openttd
15:09:20 <Wasila> 32bpp z2 sprites are compatible
15:09:28 <Wasila> but most graphics are made in z0
15:09:46 <Wasila> Anyway, I have to go. You can talk about it in the 32bpp forum
15:09:58 <OwenS> Wasila: We get people in here asking why 32bpp doesn't work all the time. The reason? They download extra zoom level sprites and wonder why they don't work in standard OpenTTD. My question: As your archives contain standard zoom level sprites anyway, why not name them compatibly?!
15:10:22 <Wasila> I suppose there could be different files for just z2
15:10:28 <Wasila> And then a different compile farm
15:10:37 <OwenS> Not different archives. Just dump the _z2 postfix...
15:10:57 <Wasila> Surely then you'd have three files with the same name?
15:11:14 <OwenS> Wasila: Keep _z1 and _z0. Dump _z2
15:11:33 <Wasila> I'll bring it up with Jupix when I get the chance
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15:34:45 <SmatZ> hello z-MaTRiX, where have you been?
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15:38:35 <z-MaTRiX> now i have new comp, but don't have time playing :(
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16:12:47 <Hyronymus> can someone decode a grf for me and send me the nfo
16:13:01 <Hyronymus> I have the sneaky suspicions that Notepad++ ran into errors
16:14:24 <planetmaker> Hyronymus, we can't. You didn't provide the newgrf
16:14:33 <Hyronymus> I was looking for it
16:15:35 <Hyronymus> send me the nfo by forum pm pls
16:15:41 * andythenorth can't decide how much anti-aliasing is too much
16:15:45 <Hyronymus> DCC isn't working for me
16:22:25 <Hyronymus> but your decoded has odd things too
16:22:32 <Hyronymus> run a search for \D= i.e.
16:22:50 <planetmaker> what's wrong about that?
16:22:55 <planetmaker> it's a valid escape sequence
16:23:10 <Hyronymus> well, somehow it seems to affect sprite loading
16:23:21 <planetmaker> it's a comparison operator
16:23:28 <planetmaker> it may well affect sprite loading.
16:23:31 <Hyronymus> or... there have always been errors in the set
16:23:36 <planetmaker> it helps to set the conditions when what is loaded
16:23:52 <Hyronymus> Purno's wooden bridge is only used on the far side of the bridge graphics
16:24:27 <Hyronymus> train bridges are drawn with a white concrete support under ramps
16:24:36 <Hyronymus> road bridges have a 'traditional' ramp
16:24:43 <Hyronymus> where concrete ramps are provided
16:27:24 <planetmaker> but what stopped you actually from de-compiling it yourself?
16:27:36 <planetmaker> or just the suspicion that \D= was wrong?
16:27:53 <PeterT> Is C# an ugly language?
16:28:20 <Weeknie> It's from that windows company
16:28:21 <PeterT> <yorick> that's basically nice C
16:28:21 <PeterT> <yorick> and then ANALLY RAPED BY MICROSOFT
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16:31:57 <Alberth> and it has a pretty smart compiler
16:32:48 <Alberth> yep, it does a lot of type deduction by itself
16:34:02 <Alberth> PeterT: you know what really scares MS? A bunch of people writing an open source platform.
16:35:46 <Alberth> people yelling at them doesn't cost them money
16:36:04 <andythenorth> anti aliasing.....not always better
16:36:09 <Alberth> providing an alternative solution does
16:36:33 *** Coco-Banana-Man has quit IRC
16:36:39 <andythenorth> no jaggies at all looks weird
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17:21:24 <Weeknie> Someone who knows Wolf01
17:22:26 <Wolf01> to be or not to be.. oh, poor yorick
17:27:41 <fonsinchen> Can I manually decompress savegames somehow?
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17:28:17 <glx> everything is possible :)
17:28:33 <TrueBrain> except the impossible of course
17:29:12 <glx> but if openttd is able to decompress, you can export this part in an external app :)
17:29:30 <yorick> fonsinchen: you can :)
17:30:17 * yorick created a script a while ago
17:30:27 <fonsinchen> How did you do it?
17:31:09 <yorick> I looked at openttd source
17:31:15 <yorick> need to look at the first few bytes
17:31:26 <yorick> and use zlib on the rest
17:45:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19825 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
17:45:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: hungarian - 1 changes by IPG
17:45:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: korean - 13 changes by junho2813
17:45:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 10 changes by mantaray
17:45:39 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 4 changes by mantaray
17:45:39 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: romanian - 18 changes by kkmic
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18:05:47 <erani> hmm. i sent mail to get translation permissions two days ago and it was replied that i should have the rights by now. but i still can't edit my language in translator.--
18:06:18 <PeterT> "but i still can't edit my language in translator" isn't a very useful diagnostic
18:06:40 <erani> it says that: "You have to be an editor before you can make modifications"
18:07:37 *** Weeknie has joined #openttd
18:08:06 <PeterT> You've selected the language that you asked for
18:08:14 <PeterT> when you get approved, it's only for that specific lanuage
18:08:25 <erani> yeah. it says next to it that "read only"
18:08:35 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
18:08:43 <PeterT> Obviously you don't have the rights
18:09:01 <erani> hmm. should I try resending the mail?
18:09:17 <PeterT> Try replying telling them the error
18:12:04 <Alberth> TrueBrain: can you help erani ?
18:13:07 <PeterT> erani: I was merely suggesting. TrueBrain is the website expert here :-D
18:13:38 <TrueBrain> Alberth: Rubidium handles those requests
18:13:41 <TrueBrain> erani: what username?
18:13:50 * erani thinks he really should wait a little bit before doing anything
18:15:13 *** nighthawk_c_m has joined #openttd
18:15:50 <TrueBrain> member of Finnish Translator group
18:16:01 <TrueBrain> so try logout/login :)
18:16:17 <TrueBrain> Alberth: ha, I could be of help after all :)
18:16:44 <Alberth> you have so many unknown powers :)
18:16:54 <TrueBrain> I suprise myself every day :)
18:17:00 <erani> TrueBrain: oh, that did the trick. terrific! thank you :)
18:19:02 <Alberth> TrueBrain: Congratz on OpenDune 0.3, although it is a while ago already
18:19:32 <__ln__> erani: can you translate?
18:20:48 <erani> __ln__: what do you mean?
18:21:39 <__ln__> erani: for example, do you know both english and finnish well?
18:23:39 <erani> heh. I'm not a professional but I've studied it for 13 years and I still use it everyday, and I'm also contributing translations to some Launchpad projects
18:24:11 <erani> I'm just a TTD enthusiast and noticed that some Finnish translations were missing :)
18:24:30 <__ln__> Launchpad translations are not famous for their quality...
18:24:57 <erani> that's true... I actually use more time correcting them than totally translating them.
18:25:18 <__ln__> Anyway, please try to first understand the string you are translating before translating it... Unlike some previous Finnish translators.
18:25:23 <OwenS> I wonder how KDE finds its translaters. My Swedish friend regularly raves about them
18:25:31 <erani> it's frustrating to see unprofessional and failed translations :/
18:26:14 <__ln__> erani: E.g. someone had translated 'engine' to 'moottori' in OTTD.......
18:26:18 <OwenS> (In fact he thinks KDE's translators beat Microsoft's, Apples and GNOMEs, which is really impressive)
18:30:13 <__ln__> all the fun suddenly turns into sadness
18:30:56 <Markk> Where should I put the data-files? I'm using Ubuntu 10.04 with OTTD 1.0.1.
18:32:04 <erani> i put the in my home folder directory named /.openttd/data
18:32:51 <yorick> erani: try ~/.openttd/data?
18:35:28 <Markk> PeterT: Yes, but I don't know where that is either.
18:35:41 <PeterT> Markk: it should come with openttd
18:36:04 <Markk> But I don't know where any of the files are. :p
18:36:40 <PeterT> how did you download openttd?
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18:37:04 <erani> ubuntu 10.04 still has 1.0.0 in its' repo i think
18:37:27 <Markk> PeterT: No, downloaded the .deb-file.
18:37:44 <Markk> erani: Mkay, but I wanted 1.0.1. :)
18:40:23 <planetmaker> wow, andythenorth the textile mill really improved
18:41:53 <andythenorth> planetmaker: you see that much difference?
18:42:38 <planetmaker> dunno, I didn't really do much of a comparison, just from memory
18:42:43 <planetmaker> but it looks nice :-)
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18:58:59 <PeterT> Hyronymus: interesting
18:59:23 <Wasila> Shouldn't we be doing a base set before NewGRFs for 32bpp?
18:59:35 <Hyronymus> I hope it goes better that the Dutch Trainset
18:59:50 <Rubidium> Wasila: ofcourse not, diversifying the effort is a much better way to do "it"
18:59:52 <Hyronymus> Wasila: other people are working on that already
19:00:11 <Hyronymus> initially I wanted a Dutch Trainset in 32bpp
19:00:21 <Hyronymus> but I reckon that limits artistry
19:00:28 <Hyronymus> not everyone knows Dutch engines i.e.
19:00:52 <Hyronymus> so let's start with a worldwide set
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19:04:16 <Wasila> I'd still rather we had more efforts working on the 32bpp set
19:04:53 <Hyronymus> the problem is people with 3d skills
19:05:10 <Hyronymus> perhaps recruiting somewhere might work :P
19:05:30 <Wasila> I wonder if the flood of new people playing OpenTTD
19:05:37 <Wasila> will get a couple helping out in the background?
19:06:20 <Wasila> It's a remarkably large community
19:06:23 <Jupix> Wasila: can't explain the sprite naming scheme, I forwarded your pm to GeekToo
19:06:26 <Wasila> if you look at the downloads numbers
19:06:54 <Wasila> How stable is it and would the devs include it?
19:07:10 <Jupix> that's also something for GeekToo, it's his code mainly
19:07:11 <Hyronymus> yes, the community is large
19:07:25 <Hyronymus> my roadset i.e. has quite some download numbers
19:07:41 <Wasila> my scenario got astounding numbers
19:07:51 <Wasila> until then I'd never realised
19:08:09 <Rubidium> Hyronymus: the problem is the odd scaling "parameters" needed for OpenTTD, i.e. the extremely short vehicles
19:08:38 <Hyronymus> I saw an image of some Spanish engine that is similar to the NS1100
19:09:03 <Hyronymus> someone should change the scale
19:09:57 <Rubidium> then go play with Transport Empire or so :)
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19:10:05 <Rubidium> or p1sim (or whatever it's called)
19:10:13 <beerface> hello any one there?
19:10:52 * planetmaker points at the topic's last section
19:12:17 <beerface> I have a couple of questions about creating a server
19:12:39 <DorpsGek> PeterT: Don't ask to ask, just ask
19:14:05 <beerface> what is the command to set the max loan on a server?
19:14:30 <beerface> and how do I set the goal
19:14:58 <PeterT> you need patched openttd to set goals
19:15:06 <Rubidium> setting_newgame max_loan?
19:16:18 <beerface> ok so I need patched openttd so set goals to win, like who ever reachs a certain amount of first?
19:16:36 <Alberth> beerface: yes, and to get it, you must write a patch
19:17:08 <Alberth> as in, nobody published a patch for goals yet (afaik)
19:17:31 <Wasila> I thought there was one once, no?
19:17:32 * planetmaker doesn't know of such patch publicly available either
19:17:49 <Rubidium> Alberth: there's one I think, but... don't get me started on the quality
19:17:58 <Wasila> That's what I was thinking
19:18:00 <beerface> ok and do I need patched openttd to like make the max loan like 200,000 and thats it
19:18:10 * planetmaker stops Rubidium talking on that quality ;-)
19:18:17 <Rubidium> as soon as I say if (foo == "bar")...
19:18:18 * Alberth wisely does not ask about the quality of said patch
19:18:20 <Wasila> Hey, Rubidium, do you know anything about the 32bpp extra-zoom sprites?
19:18:35 * andythenorth concludes that CC on industries is generally.....better
19:18:40 <Rubidium> Wasila: ofcourse I do
19:18:56 <Alberth> Rubidium: more than enough :)
19:19:06 <Wasila> If it was any good, would it get into trunk?
19:19:08 <beerface> ok and do I need patched openttd to like make the max loan like 200,000 and thats it
19:19:11 <Rubidium> Wasila: for example, I do know that I don't like most of them
19:19:32 <Wasila> You don't like the look?
19:19:52 <Alberth> beerface: can you set the max loan to that amount? if yes, you don't need to patch the server
19:19:54 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Don't ask to ask, just ask
19:20:29 <DorpsGek> glx: Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger)
19:20:42 <planetmaker> asking whether one knows something about <whateverY is pointless, Wasila
19:20:55 <beerface> what is the command and where do I put it in my cfg to set the max loan on my server?
19:21:12 <Rubidium> planetmaker: it's actually a self fulfilling prophecy
19:21:12 <planetmaker> search the cfg for loan
19:21:26 <Alberth> beerface: you already got that answer
19:21:29 <beerface> there is only a command to set it for single player
19:21:37 <planetmaker> it's the same in MP
19:21:49 <planetmaker> on a running game you need to use rcon
19:22:36 <Rubidium> planetmaker: "<A> B: do you know something about X?", "<B> A: yes, you asked about X" :)
19:22:59 <planetmaker> even worse than I assumed ;-)
19:23:59 <Wasila> Anyway, I've got to go
19:24:12 <planetmaker> you didn't ask your question yet ;-)
19:24:36 <planetmaker> not important it seems ;-)
19:24:44 <Rubidium> oh, mibbit... those almost always leave before asking
19:25:05 <planetmaker> well, but he's not around the first time
19:25:13 <planetmaker> at least I think so
19:25:26 <glx> I saw him in the afternoon
19:27:40 * andythenorth ducks the madness
20:02:10 <Hyronymus> planetmaker: I've installed MinGW etc. again
20:02:22 <Hyronymus> all seems to work, public key, private ley
20:02:48 <Hyronymus> but I get a rec circle with an ! on the resource dir for the 2ccset
20:03:04 <Weeknie> Hyronymus, perhaps you can help me
20:03:08 <planetmaker> I've no idea what the visual things on the clients mean
20:03:25 <planetmaker> I guess you deleted that dir and it indicates missing files
20:03:56 <planetmaker> I have no clue about the actual GUI you use
20:04:09 <planetmaker> as I use hg only command line
20:04:10 <Weeknie> Stands for Integrated Development Environment
20:04:36 <Weeknie> Ok, hold on just a sec:P
20:04:39 <planetmaker> it's quite a common word :-P
20:04:54 <Weeknie> You should get used to the word IDE:P
20:04:58 <Weeknie> Anyway, hold on a sec
20:05:03 <Weeknie> Start a private convo:P
20:05:10 <planetmaker> Hyronymus: try to revert all changes to your repo. Maybe make sure that you save changes you wanted to a diff
20:05:20 <planetmaker> or elsewise (especially images)
20:05:41 <Hyronymus> but I never changed a thing to it
20:06:52 <Hyronymus> it's about 2 dirs: sprites and templates
20:07:14 * andythenorth concludes that a parameter might be the answer for FISH
20:10:00 <Macha> How do I load a newGRF onto a dedicated server?
20:10:51 <Ammler> how do you install a newgrf local?
20:11:46 <Macha> Stick it into the folder. I mean, I have it downloaded through the content commands on the console, and now I want to play a game using that newGRF. There is no GUI on the server.
20:13:21 <Nilsor> Im kinda new to openttd
20:13:28 <Nilsor> i wonder how i can add an AI player
20:13:32 <Nilsor> go my singleplayer game
20:13:48 <Macha> i.e. - I'm trying to play with my friend. Neither of our connections seem to work for playing there - so I installed it on my VPS, and started it with openttd -D .
20:15:59 <Nilsor> Can you tell me how to add AI?
20:16:35 <PeterT> Well, you would need to download one
20:16:44 <PeterT> which, I actually don't know
20:17:00 <Nilsor> with the content thingie
20:17:01 <PeterT> then set it in openttd.cfg
20:20:00 <Terkhen> I finished some long, tedious work... I should be more free now
20:22:21 <andythenorth> how many farm layouts are needed?
20:22:57 <Terkhen> andythenorth: what will do that new FISH parameter?
20:23:23 <andythenorth> solve the silly unresolved question about hovercraft (and maybe other ship speeds)
20:23:34 <andythenorth> there will be an option for 'my way' and 'sensible way'
20:23:48 <andythenorth> my way will include speeds that vary according to load
20:23:56 <andythenorth> sensible way will be constant speed
20:24:22 <Terkhen> I liked the refit for greater capacity and lower speed idea
20:24:34 <andythenorth> it's still possible....
20:24:54 <andythenorth> I don't want the menu clutter, but it can probably be implemented as the 'sensible' alternative
20:25:36 <andythenorth> I need to face up to writing action 6 or 7 or whatever it is though
20:25:43 <andythenorth> it's not hard, I just can't be bothered :P
20:26:16 <Terkhen> it is not something essential, yes :)
20:26:30 <andythenorth> Terkhen: feel free to test your FIRS commit rights if you can think of any additional layouts for farms
20:26:39 <andythenorth> as I am bored of them too :)
20:29:34 <Terkhen> okay, but I have a lot of pending stuff before getting into new things :P
20:29:59 <andythenorth> I have far too much in progress :|
20:30:03 <andythenorth> I should ship something
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20:32:19 * andythenorth buys the Peter Gabriel album
20:40:51 <Weeknie> Ooh, I think I've found my problem lol
20:47:35 <Weeknie> Anyone here who could help me make cygwin find my zlib?
21:06:17 <Weeknie> Whohoo, got it compiling
21:06:23 <Weeknie> Not how it should be doing, but still
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22:49:59 *** Hyronymus is now known as Hyr|sleep
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23:36:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i find it funny that the nite owl always comes when everybody else is saying "good night" :p
continue to next day ⏵
