IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-05-02
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07:01:29 <planetmaker> moin andythenorth
07:01:30 <planetmaker> and moin everybody else :-)
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07:33:49 * andythenorth battles industry production a little more
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07:54:08 <peter1138> hey paul hey paul hey paul let's have a ball
08:00:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a feeling the topic is outdated
08:01:38 <__ln___> you'd prefer continental breakfast, huh
08:04:12 *** peter1138 changes topic to "1.0.1 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | Continental breakfast only | Don't ask to ask, just ask"
08:05:19 <andythenorth> or I can't do basic maths
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08:06:16 <andythenorth> cargo is produced 8 or 9 times per month
08:07:49 <andythenorth> and we have two things called 'multiplier'??
08:08:47 * andythenorth is starting to properly dislike industry production and is thinking of un-friending it on facebook
08:11:53 <andythenorth> makes absolutely no sense
08:12:20 <Alberth> you need DorpsGek for that?
08:12:33 <peter1138> I wasn't going to ask.
08:13:15 <peter1138> What doesn't make sense about it?
08:13:55 <andythenorth> set action 0 prop 12 to 2, get 18 units production
08:14:34 <andythenorth> allow the monthly production change cb to decrease production multiplier by 1, get 6 units production
08:15:50 <andythenorth> I feel like I'm playing 'guess a number'. I've read the source....mumble mumble
08:18:01 * andythenorth must be doing something wrong :P
08:18:21 <andythenorth> hmmm.....every primary industry just closed
08:18:43 <andythenorth> maybe I'll ship this version :D
08:21:29 <andythenorth> how does production rate correspond to production multiplier?
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08:34:08 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I understand industries, prop 12/13 such that with a value 0 nothing is produced with a value of one, 6 or 7 units per month and so on.
08:34:18 <planetmaker> And then there's the production callback which might override that
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08:54:17 <andythenorth> planetmaker: that's how I understand prop 12/13 as well
08:54:40 <andythenorth> which is why I'm baffled when setting prop 12 to 2 produces 18 units
08:54:48 <andythenorth> 12 or 14 I'd understand
08:55:13 <andythenorth> I assume there's some kind of rounding up/down going on
08:57:09 <Zuu> It's know that the station coverage area is a rectangle using the max/min x/y tiles as corners. However if the top/left corner is a bus stop and the lower/right corver is a dock, does will the coverage border be 3 or 5 tiles or different at the different sides?
08:58:45 <Zuu> Or shall I create a rectangle using min/max x/y per transport mode and then join these four rectangles which will not result in a rectangle then.
08:58:57 <Eddi|zuHause> the maximum over all connected station types
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08:59:25 <Zuu> Good, that's fairly easy to implement.
08:59:47 <peter1138> What are you implementing?
09:00:03 <peter1138> Ideally the coverage area would be 'accurate' ;)
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09:00:16 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 327.714285714
09:00:25 <Zuu> For some reason AIStation.IsAcceptingCargo(station_id, cargo_id) does not exist, so I have to implement it myself by constructing a covverage area and then use the AITile function to se if the tile area accepts the cargo.
09:01:07 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 382.333333333
09:01:40 * Rubidium wonders what runs between every 330 to 380 ticks
09:04:52 <Rubidium> and whether it's not just an error in the wiki
09:05:22 <peter1138> As if the wiki would be wrong :)
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09:21:19 <Rubidium> and ttdp's code seems to imply that prodmultiplier is only used when the production callback is executed
09:22:29 <Rubidium> and that gets called every time cargo arrives and/or every 256 ticks
09:25:53 <Eddi|zuHause> <Zuu> For some reason AIStation.IsAcceptingCargo(station_id, cargo_id) does not exist, so I have to implement it myself by constructing a covverage area and then use the AITile function to se if the tile area accepts the cargo. <-- wouldn't it be easier if you exported that function instead? in case something gets changed later, you'll have increased maintenance overhead
09:27:34 <Zuu> hmm, you mean adding that function to NoAI API?
09:27:52 <Zuu> That would indeed move the maintanence burden away from me. :-)
09:30:07 <Eddi|zuHause> while you're at it, also provide IsStationProviding(), and also add that information to the station window, not only the station build window
09:30:30 <Eddi|zuHause> and mark the catchment area of an existing station ;)
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09:42:54 <planetmaker> while you're at it add everything anyone might have considered missing?
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09:47:56 <Zuu> For now I'll just stick a function in my SuperLib, might do a feature request for NoAI, but that would not help as of today.
09:53:21 <Zuu> You could use an AI for that along with the hidden break on debug string feature of the AIDebug window.
09:53:32 <frosch123> oh, i remember, there was a discussion last night :o
09:55:16 <Zuu> Oh, and why not have Ctrl+Alt+D bring up a window where you can in-gui toggle on/off developer features.
09:56:21 <Terkhen> an AI would be a better solution than recompiling, I have to learn NoAI some day
09:56:39 <Terkhen> the patch is intended to be run from the console to get the log faster
10:03:37 <andythenorth> planetmaker: if industry var A7 becomes available during industry construction....it opens up an interesting multiplayer possibility
10:04:37 <planetmaker> hm interesting indeed :-)
10:04:48 <planetmaker> though it doesn't mean that you know who delivered cargo ;-)
10:05:44 <andythenorth> you could have one company nominated as an industrial conglomerate
10:05:52 <andythenorth> only that company would be able to construct industry
10:06:08 <andythenorth> with real player or AI control :)
10:09:20 <andythenorth> we could write an AI called 'Global Monolith' :P
10:09:58 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... why does it strike me odd when this disk has "133.7 MB" free?
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10:13:50 <andythenorth> frosch123: definitely better. I thought it was every 256 ticks
10:14:23 <andythenorth> which leaves me with one puzzle: how does prod multiplier 1 produce 6 units cargo?
10:15:06 <Rubidium> andythenorth: prop 14?
10:15:30 <andythenorth> prop 14 is set to 1
10:15:38 * andythenorth checks cargo weights
10:18:55 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19751 /trunk/src/table/settings.h: -Change [FS#3798]: make sure the chat area fits in the default window size; if you want it larger, you can always change/override it in the config file.
10:21:46 <andythenorth> hmm....'industry AI' could also be segmented by sector so different AIs handle mining, petrochemicals, etc
10:21:59 <andythenorth> how would they get money?
10:22:35 <planetmaker> running a cheap air service :-P
10:24:01 <andythenorth> can the AI press CTRL+ALT+C :P
10:24:10 <planetmaker> Terkhen: yeah... but only on MP, if you then prepare a map in advance with everything setup detailed for those particular AIs.
10:24:20 <planetmaker> length so to say ;-)
10:24:23 <andythenorth> frosch123: frick
10:24:25 <Terkhen> I know, just kidding :P
10:25:08 <planetmaker> Terkhen: it's not the worst of ideas. It works quite ok with those street traffic AIs.
10:25:23 <planetmaker> the only issue with that really is that it's inconvenient, if you run a server
10:26:16 <andythenorth> so under what circumstances is 8 or 9 an integer factor of 10?
10:26:49 * andythenorth checks cargo weights again
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10:27:08 <frosch123> when you use a different prop14, or the production changes in the month, or you use a production callback,or ...
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10:28:55 <frosch123> ah, right, one can even see from the screen that you are using a production callback
10:29:27 <andythenorth> but I don't use it to set output
10:29:31 <andythenorth> I thought that was the cause
10:29:48 <frosch123> prop 12/13 and production callback production should sum up
10:30:47 <andythenorth> is there a possibility that occasionally a month could contain > 2560 ticks?
10:31:51 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 8.9609375
10:32:38 <frosch123> so to reach 10 you need to produce at least once 2 units
10:32:45 <andythenorth> this is becoming a distraction from the real issue :)
10:33:27 <andythenorth> all I'm really trying to do is control primary production *decrease* and prevent early closure for low-production industries
10:33:43 <andythenorth> to do that I need to understand the difference between production rate and production multiplier :P
10:34:14 <andythenorth> offsets 0E and 13
10:35:06 <frosch123> i->production_rate[0] = min(CeilDiv(indspec->production_rate[0] * i->prod_level, PRODLEVEL_DEFAULT), 0xFF);
10:35:08 <frosch123> i->production_rate[1] = min(CeilDiv(indspec->production_rate[1] * i->prod_level, PRODLEVEL_DEFAULT), 0xFF);
10:35:34 <frosch123> production rate is constant, production multiplier/level changes on production changes
10:35:52 <frosch123> you can change production rate by using a production callback instead
10:37:11 <andythenorth> so my case is to allow production decrease to minimum, but prevent closure
10:37:22 <andythenorth> so I need to check offset 13
10:38:20 <frosch123> case 0x93: return industry->prod_level; <- yes, 93
10:39:09 <andythenorth> to the nfo-cave batman! :)
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10:44:29 <nighthawk_c_m> andythenorth: It contains more ticks if you use a daylength patch - and I believe that may be part of openttd one day
10:45:29 <nighthawk_c_m> ECS for example has huge problems with daylength patches at the beginning untill you have a industry at its max output - stockpiling is overkill there.
10:45:50 * andythenorth isn't going to deal with daylength patches :)
10:46:06 <andythenorth> any such patch needs to scale industry production appropriately, I'm not doing it :P
10:46:18 <frosch123> that is due to the weird way ecs does planned economy
10:46:24 <nighthawk_c_m> Well, betted deal with it now - if it enters trunk you have to deal with it then I guess
10:46:34 <andythenorth> nighthawk_c_m: no
10:47:02 <andythenorth> I am guessing it would have 0% chance of making trunk if it destroys industry production
10:47:26 <Rubidium> I am guessing you can't make a daylength patch that pleases everyone
10:47:38 <Rubidium> i.e. it's going to end up with a load of settings
10:47:46 <nighthawk_c_m> Well, the problem is that the production recalculations happen at the end of the month/beginning of the new month - so any industry that uses stockpiling will run into troubles
10:48:44 <nighthawk_c_m> wandythenorth: if a newgrf is incompatible with openttd settings it is the problem of the newgrf - the standard industries run perfectly fine with the daylength patch
10:48:53 <frosch123> the problem is not related to stockpiling, but just to ecs defining the production this month on the 1st
10:49:11 <nighthawk_c_m> just the primary industries don't increase/decrease as rapidly due to the longer month time
10:49:40 <andythenorth> I flat out wouldn't code for it. Industry production is complex and fragile already.
10:51:14 <nighthawk_c_m> Nah, Pikkas 1.5 industries are incompatible too, you can kill a coal mine in one month easily - is the production recalculation hardcoded in openttd itself (when it happens?) or is it part of a newgrf? If it is hardcoded it could be changed to recalculate every X Ticks - X -Ticks being a value calculated via daylength
10:51:43 <nighthawk_c_m> And on maps of bigger sizes a daylength patch is inevitable (my personal oppinion)
10:52:25 <andythenorth> well it would need to provide a clean separation of concerns to industry code
10:54:51 <nighthawk_c_m> what do you mean with concerns?
10:55:13 <andythenorth> I shouldn't be having to write branching nfo to deal with the daylenght
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10:57:12 * andythenorth has something weird going on
10:57:27 <nighthawk_c_m> Yeah, it would need to be part of the openttd client itself - that would be the best solution - thus the clientr would need to supply the recalculation points for the industries as well as multipliers for stockpiles / resources that are limited
10:58:33 <Zuu> O.o main.nut of my local CluelessPlus version is 2974 lines
10:58:57 <Zuu> Maybe it is time to move a few more classes from it. :-p
11:02:38 * andythenorth unbreaks some nfo
11:04:59 * nighthawk_c_m whonders if PeterT could be recoded
11:05:25 <PeterT> well, if you speak Peter++, go for it
11:05:25 <nighthawk_c_m> Actually, can a already existing NFO be decoded in the new NFO language system thats developed ?
11:05:46 <nighthawk_c_m> Maybe PearlPeter?
11:07:55 <frosch123> [13:05] <nighthawk_c_m> Actually, can a already existing NFO be decoded in the new NFO language system thats developed ? <- just pipe it through petert
11:10:14 <planetmaker> lol @ nighthawk_c_m :-)
11:11:38 <andythenorth> I want to check a byte and stick it in storage. Use type 81 or 89?
11:12:19 <frosch123> bytes are sign-extended to dword when stored
11:12:46 <andythenorth> so use 81 and all will be ok?
11:13:08 <frosch123> depends how you read it back
11:13:53 <andythenorth> I'm just using it for debug, so it shows in the 'inspect' window
11:14:06 <andythenorth> if offset 93 was in the inspect window anyway, that would be very handy :)
11:15:23 <andythenorth> so prop 12 is defined as 2, offset 93 reads as 16
11:16:01 <andythenorth> maybe my mask is wrong
11:17:21 <andythenorth> so there's a min() in the production calculation?
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11:19:55 <andythenorth> that min() is just a cap
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11:21:23 <andythenorth> frosch123: what does CeilDiv do in the production rate code?
11:21:41 <frosch123> divide and round up
11:22:43 <andythenorth> so case prop 12 is 2 and production multiplier is 11, what's the resulting production rate?
11:23:52 <frosch123> @calc ceil(2 * 11 / 16)
11:24:46 <andythenorth> @calc ceil (2 * 8 / 16)
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11:27:14 <andythenorth> @calc ceil (2 * 7 / 16)
11:27:26 <andythenorth> @calc ceil (2 * 7 / 16)
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11:29:52 <andythenorth> Rubidium: just used 'inspect' for the first time to solve a real problem :)
11:30:10 <andythenorth> what is the best way to request additional values in the inspect window(s)
11:31:31 <frosch123> i guess adding the 80+ variables mentioned on the wiki should be fine. adding all is no option, as some of them change meaning over time, and are generally troublesome for ottd/ttdp compatibility
11:32:04 <frosch123> or even ottd/ottd compatibiilty between different versions
11:34:35 <andythenorth> offsets 00, 06, 0A, 0E, 13, 14, 18, 29 and 2C would be useful. The others are redundant
11:37:08 <frosch123> var 80 does not work at all
11:37:44 <andythenorth> that's exciting :P
11:37:46 <frosch123> resp. not in a compatible way. and isn't it totally useless?
11:38:12 <frosch123> do you want a location button in the inspect window?
11:38:37 <andythenorth> would it allow for moving industries around? :)
11:39:35 * andythenorth crosses fingers. Are all primary industries about to go 'boom'
11:40:11 <frosch123> some of your offsets to not make any sense at all
11:40:26 <frosch123> are you sure you got the right ones?
11:40:30 <andythenorth> which ones? I just lifted them from the 'internals' page
11:41:44 * andythenorth has code for primary industry production falling, but no closure
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11:57:02 <nighthawk_c_m> The internets, a mystery in itself and its ports - A novel by us
11:58:49 <nighthawk_c_m> Hmm.. the bigger a map gets the worse the landscape generation seems to be
11:59:21 <planetmaker> that depends upon the landscape generation settings. And on the definition of "nice" and "bad" ;-)
11:59:23 <nighthawk_c_m> Oh, and anyone care to add a closure to power plants for the standard industries? That would be like Openttd 1.5
11:59:39 <planetmaker> nighthawk_c_m: won't happen. Use newgrfs
12:00:06 <nighthawk_c_m> Why, then at least reduce the spawn amount upon map creation
12:03:42 <planetmaker> nighthawk_c_m: personally I do agree actually as I consider that behaviour a bug in the original game
12:03:50 <planetmaker> same with the expiry of all helicopters
12:05:39 <nighthawk_c_m> Well, I have no problem with 340 Coal mines - but 250 Power plants that are absolutely useless is just .... not going anywhere - and I play with Industry sets at times, but also enjoy the good plain easy industry sometimes
12:09:51 <planetmaker> actually... both are good ideas for OpenGFX+...
12:12:13 <Terkhen> I'd love to see support for new cargos without having to use refitting (at least for RVs/wagons)
12:12:33 <planetmaker> hm... support for new cargos without refit?
12:12:54 <Terkhen> new wagons appear depending on GRF loaded, I don't know if it is feasible or not :P
12:12:59 <planetmaker> Terkhen: that'd mean to have zillions of (possibly visually identical) wagons.
12:13:07 <planetmaker> yes, it's possible
12:13:38 <planetmaker> personally I actually prefer fewer wagons which can be refitted ;-)
12:13:51 <planetmaker> as that allows for more fun play in my eyes:
12:14:10 <Terkhen> it would be more friendly for newbies and AIs
12:14:21 <planetmaker> get iron ore, deliver it, go to depot, refit to coal, go to coal mine near by, go to power plant near ore mine, refit to ore
12:14:43 <planetmaker> --> less empty travel :-)
12:15:12 <planetmaker> actually it'd make sense to not have the need to refit at all when transporting coal and ore.
12:15:26 <planetmaker> it's just the same wagon after all. And a bit dust is something one doesn't care about
12:15:52 <nighthawk_c_m> Caring about the coal dust in a iron ore freight would be too much realism
12:16:09 <planetmaker> nighthawk_c_m: one wouldn't care, I think, in reality...
12:17:02 <nighthawk_c_m> And we can always assume that a train is cleaned before they fill it - coal dust can cause dust explosions in storage areas and the likes - whether its a riverboat or a freight train - after coal transports they are always cleaned up before being used again
12:17:06 <planetmaker> Terkhen: I added to OpenGFX a refit-possibility to goods, coal, oil and passenger wagons...
12:17:34 <planetmaker> at least that's way easier (and more future - proof!) than checking for individual newgrfs
12:18:43 <planetmaker> but I do agree refit is something one has to learn about and one has to think about...
12:20:31 <frosch123> you can check for specific cargo types being available via action7
12:20:52 <Terkhen> newbies wouldn't use the advanced possibilities of refitting anyways (it is just an annoyance at that point)... but if this option would need changes for each future newgrf then I don't know if it is a good idea
12:20:54 <frosch123> but you would still have to know all cargo types, i.e. you cannot generally support stuff via cargoclasses
12:21:30 <planetmaker> hm... but that's what is being asked for anyway: one wagon per cargo
12:21:49 <planetmaker> not per cargo class
12:22:14 <frosch123> well, but you cannot create a wagon for every bulk cargo in some type of loop
12:22:27 * planetmaker has to look at how available cargos are supported...
12:22:33 <planetmaker> frosch123: maybe I can with NML ;-)
12:22:35 <frosch123> you can only check for iore, core, coal, ... and then conditionally creater wagons
12:23:04 <planetmaker> anyway a lengthy process
12:23:14 <frosch123> however, imo, once you have more than 12 cargos one wagon per cargo quite floods the purchase list
12:23:28 <planetmaker> my argument against, yes :-)
12:23:46 <planetmaker> and whoever uses industry newgrfs should learn about refit? ;-)
12:24:44 <frosch123> well, there was also the patch to refit wagons to the selected cargofilter on purchase
12:24:58 <andythenorth> planetmaker were you here the other day when we were discussing refits?
12:25:02 <frosch123> though refit on purchase fails for subcargos
12:25:26 <planetmaker> andythenorth: dunno. Not that I recall what you try to hint at :-)
12:25:34 <Terkhen> well, at least "standard" refittable wagons / RVs should not use the cargo name but a more generic one
12:25:45 <peter1138> subcargos are pointless
12:26:03 <andythenorth> we were trying to figure out refitting at stations, then we got into discussing vehicles that can load 'containers' containing anything
12:26:16 <planetmaker> Terkhen: yes, it should be clear what they are: possibly multi-purpose wagons :-)
12:26:44 <planetmaker> andythenorth: ah, I wasn't there. I skimmed over it later
12:26:55 <andythenorth> peter1138: no they aren't. How else are we supposed to crudely hack them for livery, capacity, number of vehicles visible in an aRV?
12:27:22 * andythenorth thinks using subcargos as originally designed is utterly stupid though
12:27:35 <andythenorth> and will baffle nearly all players
12:27:46 <planetmaker> it's just eye-candy
12:27:51 <frosch123> [14:26] <andythenorth> we were trying to figure out refitting at stations, then we got into discussing vehicles that can load 'containers' containing anything <- interestingly that approach fails for coal/iron ore, as they are not transported mixed in at the same time
12:28:12 <andythenorth> 'refit at station' would be ok for that
12:28:24 <andythenorth> but I think we concluded that might never happen
12:28:40 <planetmaker> frosch123: it'd be suficient if the refit for similar cargos was not necessary
12:28:48 <andythenorth> planetmaker: do you actually use 'refit' orders? I always intend to but never bother as they are a hassle
12:29:02 <planetmaker> then one cargo per container only
12:29:10 <planetmaker> then sub-cargos would get a new meaning :-)
12:29:23 <planetmaker> But overloading notation is usually a bad thing :-P
12:29:30 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes, sometimes I do :-)
12:29:39 <planetmaker> But not too often. But I like the idea very much
12:29:50 <frosch123> planetmaker: the point of container was that a box van or a ship could transport any packaged cargo. that is mixed goods/food in the same wagon at the same time
12:29:51 <planetmaker> it makes much more sense in eye-candy games
12:30:11 <frosch123> a ore wagon otoh might carry both coal and iron ore, but not at the same time
12:30:14 <andythenorth> refit orders...I like it. But in practice it's too fragile. What the chances of having an iron mine and coal mine with same production?
12:30:24 <planetmaker> frosch123: then don't say "container" but "palette.
12:30:29 <andythenorth> It's hard to provide good service + match to vehicle capacity
12:30:52 <planetmaker> So one ore wagon has "one palette" of <bulk>. While a goods transporter of 40t has maybe 8 palettes capacity at 5t each
12:31:13 <planetmaker> yeah s/palette/box/. Whatever is preferred
12:31:28 <planetmaker> it'd need to define the packing unit
12:32:18 <planetmaker> packing unit is a vehicle property. SKU doesn't quite fit it IMHO
12:33:52 * andythenorth thinks cargo subtypes just confuse players. Can I transport Goods (Automobiles) in a wagon that supports Goods?
12:34:04 <andythenorth> What about a wagon that supports Goods (Electronics)?
12:34:45 * andythenorth does dumb stuff to
12:42:04 <Mazur> Kids today, no ability to do simple arithmetic in their heads.
12:44:49 * andythenorth wonders....if no ENSP are delivered to a primary industry, how aggressively to decrease production (it's a random chance of decrease by 1)
12:45:37 <andythenorth> give the player a break, or make them work?
12:47:21 <frosch123> then you should consider to make the machine shop produce "some" supplies even when no input is delivered
12:47:47 <andythenorth> for the beginning of the game?
12:47:50 <frosch123> or starting a game might be harder. also all unserviced primary industries will close down
12:48:06 <andythenorth> I'm going to make closure *way* less likely :)
12:48:19 <andythenorth> that's why you were teaching me the production code earlier ;)
12:48:58 <andythenorth> there'll be some kind of escalator. Min production == small chance of closure. Low production == small chance of decrease. High production == med chance of decrease
12:49:10 <andythenorth> and for that, var 93 is my friend
12:49:37 <frosch123> anyway, there should be no deadline for the player to get up a complete production chain (mine -> steel mill -> machines shop -> mine) in the first five years or so
12:50:29 <andythenorth> food is not part of that chain :P
12:50:34 <andythenorth> food is useless anyway
12:50:45 <andythenorth> unless you want to stare at sand for the whole game
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12:55:20 <andythenorth> anyone remind how random works in nfo? I remember I have to use quite specific values
12:55:58 <andythenorth> I want about 1 in 50 approx
12:56:16 <andythenorth> peter1138: ^ you like that kind of question :P
13:06:11 <nighthawk_c_m> interesting video
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13:19:53 * andythenorth decides against it
13:24:06 <fjb_> To ponder or not to ponder...
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13:48:51 <nighthawk_c_m> would me more interesting about what he pondered and what recieved the "no"
13:58:43 * nighthawk_c_m nodds and thanks __ln__ (not a native english speaker)
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14:54:29 <Alberth> you were here before?
14:55:16 <Peping> How do I get a const char* (or whatever char) out of a StringID? :|
14:56:01 <Eddi|zuHause> why would you want that?
14:56:28 <Alberth> I used that a few times for debugging :p
14:56:50 <Peping> for chat purposes on my server.. I'm trying to tell the player what cargo he's transporting.
14:59:31 <Alberth> char *GetString(char *buffr, StringID string, const char *last);
15:00:30 <Peping> what's supposed to be put in const char *last?
15:01:03 <Alberth> char buffer[DRAW_STRING_BUFFER]; GetString(buffer, str, lastof(buffer));
15:01:30 <Alberth> simple grep on the source code :)
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15:33:40 <Zuu> Hmm, would be nice if vehicles that are stuck in a queue actually had speed == 0.
15:36:11 <Zuu> Waiting and see if they have hoved is quite expansive for AIs as they only can see the tile location - not if they have moved a half tile or so.
15:36:36 <Zuu> AIVehicle.GetDirection would be nice as well :-)
15:37:32 <planetmaker> I'm sure you document all these proposals in the AI API thread? :-)
15:38:02 <Zuu> Indeed, I'll do. Except for the one earlier today as I found a feature request for that at FS.
15:42:22 <Alberth> you may still want to document that one in the thread, with a mentioning of the FS
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16:48:13 <Progman> Assertion failed at line 102 of /home/progman/openttd/trunk/src/os/unix/unix.cpp: path[strlen(path) - 1] == PATHSEPCHAR
16:56:54 <RM87> hi, how to remove already downloaded online content? For example AI.
16:59:21 <Progman> remove the file from the content_download/ directory
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17:03:22 <planetmaker> Progman: I guess you miss out on the information in which version you encounter that ;-)
17:06:16 <Peping> may I have a lame question? If I have a comany with no loan, no vehicles, no stuff at all, how is it possible that i have some expenses under the "Other" row in the Finances window?
17:09:38 <Peping> the expenses are approx. 25 pounds a month, but it's still annoying when all that you want is an idle company :|
17:14:25 <Progman> planetmaker: I'm recompiling to trunk for that atm ;)
17:14:51 <planetmaker> Peping: it can't be stopped.
17:15:05 <planetmaker> Simply for the reason that an idle company is supposed to bancrupt somewhen
17:15:15 <fjb_> Peping: administration fee.
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17:27:03 <frosch123> you can likely lower it to 1£ per month via newgrf base cost multiplier 0
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17:30:07 <planetmaker> oh really? Then I should rise it to like 50k ;-)
17:30:36 <planetmaker> hm.. newgrfs don't have access to the company value, do they?
17:40:15 <BWJM> With bridges, you can make combined road/tram bridges by upgrading a road bridge with a tram bridge. Is there a way to build combined road/tram TUNNELS?
17:43:02 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the same way
17:43:31 <Eddi|zuHause> you only need to add tram lines to one bridge/tunnel head
17:45:35 <Zuu> O.o a 150 tiles long buss queue
17:45:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19752 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
17:45:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: galician - 41 changes by Condex
17:45:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: indonesian - 7 changes by adjayanto
17:45:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: irish - 29 changes by tem
17:45:39 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 47 changes by mantaray
17:45:39 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 49 changes by mantaray
17:46:31 <Zuu> With CluelessPlus and NoCAB vehicles though unfortunately the head of the queue is my fault.
17:47:34 <Zuu> and those 150 tiles are just counting the longest branch.
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17:48:04 <Zuu> There is probably some 50 more tiles of queue branching off at various points.
17:51:02 <Eddi|zuHause> we need a better method for overtaking and load balancing, especially on one way roads
17:55:44 <Zuu> I need to fix the bug in my usage code so that if only one part of the station gets used it shouldn't report a low usage and make the AI pump in even more vehicles.
17:56:54 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a difficult decision to add more vehicles or optimise the route insted
17:56:57 <Zuu> Currently it only has one usage number of the entire station. When only one of 3-4 bus/truck stops gets used then it will look like the station handles the load well when it infact is in a rather bad state.
17:57:36 <Zuu> The usage is basically [number of veh on station tiles] * [some factor] / [num tiles]
17:58:00 <Zuu> where [some factor] is just a constant.
17:58:46 <Zuu> Then comes the real challenge, detecting and acting on jams between stations.
18:01:53 <Rubidium> Progman: but that version has not been vetted by Gentoo yet :) Only 0.7.3 is "stable"
18:02:35 <Progman> I believe it will crash on non-gentoo unix systems as well
18:04:28 <Progman> I encounterd this assertion while playing with symlinks in ~/.openttd/, not a really serious bug at all ;)
18:05:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Progman: it gets really serious when, after cutting, the string ends with a /
18:05:32 <Eddi|zuHause> then it may cause an infinite loop
18:05:52 <Rubidium> on the other hand... looks like Progman didn't care about updating his system for a *long* time
18:06:26 <Eddi|zuHause> this problem came up a while ago, wasn't it fixed?
18:06:45 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: it was reported on the German forum...
18:07:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure, i thought it came up here...
18:07:09 <Progman> Rubidium: I'm still running on kde3 which isn't in portage anymore ;)
18:07:56 <Rubidium> looks like a system last updated around July 2008
18:08:24 <Rubidium> although that would mean Gentoo was already *very* slow with updating lzo, because that's from April 2008
18:09:21 <Rubidium> on the other hand, you didn't get the broken zlib and sdl yet
18:10:17 <Progman> it doesn't crash for you if you add such two links in content_download/data/?
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18:31:34 <andythenorth> so how about a new type of order: 'containerise' / 'uncontainerise'?
18:31:42 <andythenorth> or as planetmaker would have it: pack / unpack
18:32:41 <planetmaker> I would call it box / unbox ;-)
18:32:56 <planetmaker> or palettize / unpalettize :-P
18:33:05 <planetmaker> (just to throw in some more terms)
18:33:16 <Eddi|zuHause> curry/uncurry :)
18:33:32 <andythenorth> it works for this case: train of goods to port, containerise, move by ship, uncontainerise
18:33:38 <andythenorth> but it still fails for transfer orders
18:33:47 <andythenorth> I just spent a long car journey trying to figure it out
18:33:54 <andythenorth> the problem is that transfer orders are just broken
18:34:29 <andythenorth> and if we layer on some kind of 'intermodal' system to allow part-loading vehicles, it just highlights transfers being broken
18:34:37 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: rather have containers work like vehicles, and have them their own order. then you can refit a container to the cargo you like, load it at the dock, and then have the ship load the container
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18:35:10 <andythenorth> which would be interesting as it would also make vehicle ferries and ro-ro trains possible. But is that one likely?
18:35:29 <Eddi|zuHause> not particularly ;)
18:35:36 <andythenorth> how does the game route a container :P
18:36:01 <andythenorth> the previous discussions looked more possible
18:36:03 <Eddi|zuHause> the container has the route in the orders, and the ship loads containers with the right order?
18:36:23 <andythenorth> sounds like a large extension of current game to me?
18:36:43 <andythenorth> frosch123 and Alberth were discussing something that seemed more plausible of packing cargo inside a package...
18:36:47 <Eddi|zuHause> but in my mind, that's just a side effect of shunting ;)
18:37:21 <andythenorth> transfer orders are unfixable without something like cargodist, right?
18:37:39 <Rubidium> oh... and then they want coal and passengers in containers too
18:37:50 <Zuu> transfer orders with cargodist do not really make sense, but transfering cargo does. :-)
18:38:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: just refit the container to "illegal immigrants"?
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18:42:08 <planetmaker> just to make sure the illegal immigrants are not found, they're "stored" behind boxes of weed :-P
18:43:21 <Alberth> New disaster: "Head of <COMPANY> arrested for smuggling immgirants, fined for $<HUGE AMOUNT>."
18:44:05 <planetmaker> Alberth: too realist. This is a game! ;-)
18:44:23 <Alberth> planetmaker: not good for profit, those boxes will disappear while in transit :p
18:44:27 <andythenorth> transfer orders *aren't* fixable are they?
18:44:32 <andythenorth> just to check....
18:44:52 <Alberth> what does fixable mean?
18:45:47 <andythenorth> PAX is the best example....can't have a bus both drop off and collect at the same airport as it recollects it's own passengers
18:46:43 <planetmaker> that needs cargo destinations of some sort
18:47:10 <andythenorth> same issue renders any work on 'containers' pointless at the moment IMO
18:47:32 <Alberth> our ideas don't work?
18:48:05 <andythenorth> I sometimes do a 'two station shuffle' with ships & buses, but it's boring. and it sucks for planes
18:48:57 <Alberth> oh, you mean you cannot move back and forth between two harbours
18:50:15 <Alberth> I was more worried about a single trip, but that seems still ok to me
18:53:19 <andythenorth> well if it's unsolvable maybe two stations are ok
18:53:26 <andythenorth> it's particularly poor for planes though
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18:54:53 <andythenorth> have a bus go to 'drop off' and 'pickup' stations is ok. Ships it's ok, but slow. Trains can be difficult if stations need to be large. Planes is quite bad :|
18:54:56 <Alberth> everything is solvable, but adding cargo d*st isn't exactly trivial :)
18:55:12 <andythenorth> I don't know if cargodist solves it anyway?
18:55:21 <planetmaker> it does andythenorth
18:55:32 <planetmaker> it gives cargos a destination and they don't go elsewhere
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18:55:47 <andythenorth> I haven't played a cargodist game yet....I only play the game to test FIRS...and for that I have to use trunk :)
18:55:56 <andythenorth> no time for more games than that :(
18:56:07 <Ammler> but something like terminals, arriving and departing slots per station
18:56:23 <Zuu> I've only played cargodist at the test server. Though I think I spent like 30 hours on that server. :-p
18:56:43 <Alberth> I mainly played cargodest :)
18:56:49 <andythenorth> do coop games use 'drop off' 'pickup' for transfer routes?
18:58:11 <Ammler> andythenorth: as you already said, it is ugly for airports
18:58:12 <andythenorth> i.e. two different transfer stations
19:00:27 <andythenorth> so I take food to A, and 'pack' it. Now a 'container' ship loads and goes to B. But B doesn't need food. C needs food. Meanwhile all my food is piling up at B
19:01:04 <andythenorth> the 'routes' suggestion from Eddi|zuHause actually covers that case. So does cargodist.
19:02:29 <Ammler> one big issue of cargodist is, that the destinations are reachable stations
19:02:43 <planetmaker> andythenorth: we sometimes do something like that
19:02:50 <planetmaker> we have then no load orders at drop
19:03:39 <Zuu> Ammler: At first glance I though that as well, but the system where you get the station rating caped depending on the amount of destinaitions you provide it is not really that bad.
19:05:48 <Ammler> well, for me it is just "autotransfer" not more :-)
19:06:00 <Ammler> very complicated autotransfer
19:06:21 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it does not force destinations
19:06:42 <Eddi|zuHause> it helps you gather large coverage areas
19:06:57 <Eddi|zuHause> and helps you detect bottlenecks
19:07:34 <Eddi|zuHause> that's one of the biggest challenges of cargodist, you actually have to transport all the passengers, you can't just let them pile up
19:07:54 <Zuu> At the test server I tried to bypass cargodist and only provide one destinanitos. But later I learned that that was not a good idea as my primary industries closed down one by one becasue of low station ratings.
19:08:48 <planetmaker> he, I recall that :-)
19:10:06 <Ammler> cargodist could be nice together with IS
19:10:25 * andythenorth wonders how cargodist interacts with the FIRS industry closure controls I'm writing :o
19:10:50 <Ammler> does that depend on raiting?
19:11:18 <andythenorth> I'm bypassing all the default closure code
19:11:35 <andythenorth> it's a bit bonkers and seems to require a lot of wiki to explain it
19:11:40 <Ammler> in general, the ratings are much lower, around 50%
19:11:51 <Zuu> IIRC Fonso will be trying to replace that rating cap with something else to encourage providing more destinations.
19:13:49 <Zuu> The downside with the current solution is that it makes it quite hard for new companies to compete about resources.
19:15:24 <Zuu> The statue already gives old rich companies a benefit against newer not yet rich companies.
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19:17:10 <Eddi|zuHause> bah... having religious leaders declare your research as heretic and having caste system doesn't go well in a small empire
19:19:13 <andythenorth> planetmaker so FIRS closure/open parameter options (1) default FIRS behaviour (some closing) (2) no closing (3) no closing, no opening (total sandbox)
19:19:35 <andythenorth> the only question I have is whether to have a separate option to disable primary production decrease. And I think not
19:20:30 <planetmaker> why would you warrant against primary production decrease separately?
19:20:45 <andythenorth> oh....one other. Total sandbox....what forms of opening are prevented: map generator, random gameplay, player funding?
19:20:57 <planetmaker> well... actually : for scenarios :-)
19:21:00 <andythenorth> not even sure I can control those yet, but what would be best? :P
19:21:36 <planetmaker> andythenorth: what about a bit set thingy:
19:21:56 <planetmaker> no closing, no opening, no prod. change of primary
19:22:04 <planetmaker> if none is set, default FIRS rules
19:22:40 <andythenorth> is it too many for players?
19:22:47 <planetmaker> and if no open = nothing opens, neither game nor player
19:22:58 <planetmaker> but that *could* be separated, but I wouldn't do it now
19:23:09 <planetmaker> and I don't think it's too complicated
19:23:16 <andythenorth> haven't tested yet whether I can prevent in game but allow in scenario editor
19:23:29 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes, you can. You can check for the game mode
19:23:45 <OwenS> Ooooh... Raskspace's new VPSes are awesomely attractive
19:25:21 <OwenS> Their lowest end plan is $10.95 a month... And if something goes wrong (With their end, not yours ;-)) you can still call them up at 4am to get them to fix it :p
19:26:06 <OwenS> (And they charge hourly, so spinning up a VPS for 1 hour to do a nightly build is fine :P)
19:28:15 * andythenorth wonders if there is room in the map array to store 'There is electricity here' on a tile
19:29:09 <RM87> is it possible to have train last year's profit a negative value that is more than train running cost?
19:29:24 <Alberth> with transfer orders, easily
19:29:44 <Alberth> read about feeder systems at the wiki :)
20:07:02 <andythenorth> time for some wires and solder :P
20:07:18 <andythenorth> sometimes nfo is just not enough
20:09:23 <OwenS> andythenorth: What you building?
20:10:33 <OwenS> Nothing like the smell of lead solder ^^
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20:16:12 <Powerek38> what are the key factors that make the game run more and more slowly as it progresses?
20:17:04 <Zuu> or more generic, more complex networks for the pathfinder to handle.
20:17:44 <Powerek38> and obviously the size of the map and the number of vehicles in the game?
20:17:56 <Zuu> Also just moving around the vehicles takes quite alot cpu time.
20:19:01 <Powerek38> and additional graphics and vehicles sets?
20:21:15 <Rubidium> if they do (m)any fancy things that might cost time too
20:22:11 <OwenS> Example: Japanese Houses is a real CPU sucker
20:23:26 <Eddi|zuHause> vehicle movement, amount of cargo waiting, tile animation, ...
20:24:21 <Eddi|zuHause> where vehicle movement can be separated in pathfinder, acceleration and collision detection
20:24:48 * andythenorth makes a temporary lathe from an electric drill
20:24:54 <andythenorth> and reduces the diameter of some LEDS
20:25:06 <andythenorth> real stuff mind, this isn't pixels :P
20:25:25 <planetmaker> the diameter of LEDs? Hm...
20:26:05 <andythenorth> they are 3mm with a lip
20:26:08 <andythenorth> I'm removing the lip
20:26:17 <Powerek38> ok, thanks for this :)
20:26:21 <andythenorth> if anyone knows of a source of bright-white 3mm LEDs with no lip, let me know
20:26:34 <andythenorth> and now...back to the game :P
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20:34:15 <planetmaker> andythenorth: LED != LED ;-)
20:34:27 <planetmaker> depends what type you need
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21:05:15 <planetmaker> hm... picasa is also nice for viewing my large OpenTTD screenshot collection which I obviously aquired meanwhile...
21:05:32 <planetmaker> didn't know I had so many :-P
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22:56:32 <kingop> hi, i have a problem geting the server list
22:57:11 <PeterT> kingop: do you get any error messages?
22:57:22 <PeterT> kingop: have you set it to "Internet" first?
22:57:39 <kingop> yes, some times i get the server list
22:58:07 <kingop> but most of the time i can see only the last server i jioned
22:58:37 <Zuu> hmm, CluelessPlus cargo edition make use of all 500 vehicles in 20 years on hard setting. Perhaps it need to be tought how to make use of other transport modes when cargo support gets stable enough to be released.
22:59:13 <kingop> i opened ports 3978-3980
23:00:10 <Zuu> 3979 is the port for incomming connections, but if I understood you correctly you are trying to join servers, not host your own.
23:01:11 <Zuu> I didn't get anything from content server within 10-20 seconds earlier tonight.
23:01:32 <Zuu> IIRC the master server and the content server use the same physical host.
23:02:37 <Zuu> (the master server is the one you connect to when you want to know what multi player servers there are to play at)
23:03:01 <kingop> i'm trying now and still I see only the last server I was able to connect to
23:03:22 <Zuu> It's really slow from here too (to get the server list), currently OpenTTD is frozen.
23:04:14 <kingop> Most of the time it this way?
23:04:43 <Zuu> I don't know, but 1.0 surely increased the number of users.
23:05:01 <kingop> i downloaded 1.0.1 today
23:06:55 <Zuu> What you can do if you want to play multi player now is to go to the URL I gave you before (http://www.openttd.org/en/servers) and find a server you want to join. Click on the link and you'll see the IP+port of the server.
23:06:56 <kingop> Does this affect the ability to connect to the servers?
23:07:10 <Zuu> In OpenTTD you can press add server and type the address manually.
23:07:27 <Zuu> It's of course not as convinient as when the master server works, but should get you started.
23:07:53 <Eddi|zuHause> kingop: server list uses UDP, which means packages may get lost, especially on busy lines
23:08:03 <Zuu> I have no idea how temporary the downness of the master server is. Hopefully it will get back again in a few days.
23:08:07 <Eddi|zuHause> joining a server uses TCP, so generally is more reliable
23:08:45 <Zuu> And as Eddi pointed out it may or may not be the actual master server that is down. Probably not as the http interface works.
23:10:03 <Eddi|zuHause> the ingame server list can't use TCP, because that increases bandwidth usage by around factor 10, and has a lot of memory requirements
23:10:31 <Zuu> Noticed now that I've got the list in OpenTTD from the master server.
23:11:02 <Zuu> Indeed, and for each user it could be okay, but for the server it adds up alot.
23:11:13 <kingop> me too! after a long time
23:12:40 <kingop> now the map downloading is stuck..... It's annoying
23:13:09 <Zuu> hmm, as usual there is alot more empty servers than servers with people on it.
23:13:21 <kingop> i can see the chat but it's stuck,
23:13:27 <Zuu> So that all cool people can have their own super cool server.
23:13:54 <kingop> network - game connection lost
23:14:34 <Zuu> try another server, preferable maximum 512x512.
23:14:57 <Eddi|zuHause> that's likely a problem with your connection, or your computer is too slow for the game
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23:15:11 <Zuu> 512x1024 will probably also work, but bigger than that usually do not work very well for multiplayer.
23:15:16 <Rubidium> openttd does not like unreliable (internet) connections
23:16:14 <Eddi|zuHause> kingop: do you have WLAN?
23:16:36 <Eddi|zuHause> those tend to have a high frequency of lost packages
23:17:50 <kingop> I have a stable and fast connection
23:18:21 <Eddi|zuHause> apparently it's not as reliable as you think
23:19:31 <kingop> i played other online games
23:20:00 <Zuu> You can try another server, but if all OpenTTD servers cause you problem then it is probably something at your end which could include your ISP.
23:20:26 <Zuu> OpenTTD is rather different from many other online games.
23:20:37 <kingop> i'm trying now an empty server
23:22:21 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe the game you joined was just too large
23:22:24 <kingop> and again a connection lost
23:23:00 <Eddi|zuHause> openttd kicks you out if you can't keep up for 4 ingame days (around 10 seconds)
23:23:17 <kingop> i don't know what more can i do, some time i'm able to play 2 hours but more of the time i can't even see the server list
23:24:50 <Zuu> You could try some of the AIs if you want.
23:25:08 <Eddi|zuHause> typical trouble areas are your computer/firewall, your network/router or your ISP
23:25:11 <Zuu> If you get the in game content download list.
23:25:59 <Eddi|zuHause> content list is TCP, i believe
23:26:15 <kingop> some times it's working. s there any way for me to know what is the problem?
23:26:26 <Rubidium> if it works sometimes and doesn't work a little later it's unlikely to be router/firewall, but more general unstable connection
23:26:28 <Eddi|zuHause> note that all these things are outgoing connections
23:26:48 <Zuu> Yep, probably after they added the http mode for content download list (if it was not TCP from start)
23:27:05 <Rubidium> content was tcp from the start
23:28:11 <Rubidium> the masterserver + initial server communication is udp because it's much lighter and I've been told some old Windows version did not recycle file descriptors fast enough so you'd run out of file descriptors for your tcp connections pretty fast
23:28:12 <kingop> i got a new msg: you are banned from this server.
23:28:32 <kingop> how, why? i never palyed there
23:29:22 <Zuu> Did it show something about rules when you joined?
23:29:44 <Eddi|zuHause> they might have banned an IP range, which would cover all people from the same ISP
23:29:52 <kingop> i couldn't join, it kick me out
23:30:26 <kingop> ok, i will not take it personally
23:30:30 <Eddi|zuHause> or you used "Player" as your name
23:30:48 <OwenS> Rubidium: Said "old Windows version" is any version XP SP1 or earlier
23:31:14 <OwenS> Rubidium: Used to really kill the Tor
23:32:46 <Zuu> kingop: As for the record I could join a server but lost the connection as well an a rather empty server which used to work a half year ago or so. (I don't do multiplayer very often)
23:34:05 <Rubidium> OwenS: oh, that's more recent than I thought
23:34:06 <Zuu> My suggestion would be to try single player with AIs and then maybe try #openttdcoop. No idea if that will be of any luck as it is a rather heavy server but I have never had any problems with them apart from when my PC can't keep up with it anymore.
23:35:07 <OwenS> Rubidium: Yeah. Dunno how they took Berkely Sockets and screwed it up, but this is Microsoft we are talking of
23:35:32 <Zuu> Throw togeather CluelessPlus, SimpleAI, NoCAB and AdminarAI and you have a good bunch of AIs.
23:35:37 * OwenS would like to kill people who name the section of their PDF "Section 17". You know, rather than "17. Audio Interface"
23:36:00 <kingop> I managed to connect to #openttdcoop
23:37:29 <Zuu> Just remember to read their rules before you start playing there.
23:37:58 <kingop> wher can i read the rules?
23:38:41 <OwenS> Aah, .stable? I don't think the rules there are complex :)
23:39:24 <PeterT> there are rules, though
23:39:26 <Zuu> I wonder, how did you manage to connect to the #openttdcoop server without a password? Also I wondered how you managed to do that without a nightly edition of OpenTTD, but I see now there is a stable #openttdcoop server.
23:39:40 <OwenS> Zuu: hes on #openttdcoop.stable. I checked
23:39:45 <kingop> are there any more known stables servers?
23:40:04 <PeterT> kingop: yes, I host one at #sn
23:40:51 <kingop> they have 3 servers on the list, one without password
23:41:15 <PeterT> That's the welcome stable
23:41:27 <PeterT> then there is the PublicServer, and the prozone
23:41:53 <Zuu> The usual procedure is to join their irc channel, type a special command in the IRC channel and get the password for the server. This so you are forced to read about the rules.
23:42:08 <OwenS> :(. This chip has two I²S transmitters and two I²S recievers. That means I can do, at best, 4.0 audio output :(
23:43:30 <Zuu> That procedure also usualy keeps the bastards out of the game.
23:43:49 <OwenS> Not always. But it helps.
23:45:36 <kingop> where can i read about all of this? i have a lot to learn
23:46:32 <PeterT> and join #openttdcoop and #openttdcoop.stable
23:47:49 <kingop> I've read there, I didn't find much information on Multiplayer
23:51:19 <kingop> Thanks everyone for your patience, i'm going to sleep now. i will try again tomorrow
continue to next day ⏵
