IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-05-01
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00:00:32 <OwenS> Yell at ATi and Intel to support VDPAU. It works on every Unix, it is designed to support any card...
00:00:58 <theholyduck> vdpau interfaces directly with nvidias video decoding chip
00:01:09 <OwenS> The design is portable though
00:01:22 <OwenS> Works on Linux, BSD and Solaris, and both nVIDIA and S3 have implemented it
00:01:28 <theholyduck> even if nvidia did opensource the firmware and what not needed to make it work
00:01:42 <theholyduck> theres no guarantee you could actually implement it on ati cards or intel ones
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00:02:10 <theholyduck> OwenS, well sure, if nvidia liscenced out the chips/firmware/code used to interface,etc
00:02:25 <OwenS> theholyduck: No need for a license! S3 implemented the API of their own accord!
00:02:36 <OwenS> VDPAU operates at a similar level of abstraction to OpenGL
00:02:58 <theholyduck> OwenS, hmm, doesnt necesarily mean its doable to make it work with ati's decoding chips
00:03:25 <OwenS> Well, there are so far two compatible implementations, and Intel are strongly considering it
00:03:34 <theholyduck> OwenS, the other problem is
00:03:44 <theholyduck> they still dont support the latest xorg
00:03:57 <theholyduck> unless theres been a new release while i wasnt looking
00:04:13 <OwenS> Intel's only VAAPI GPU doesn't support any kernels released in the last 12 months :p
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00:06:17 <Keyboard_Warrior> theholyduck, her
00:06:23 <Keyboard_Warrior> internet seemingly exploded
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00:06:34 *** Keyboard_Warrior is now known as theholyduck
00:19:42 <Eddi|zuHause> "opensource is failure April 30th, 2010 at 23:21
00:19:43 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah! it will not last long till you communist scumbags will be exterminated! go steve!" <-- i cannot stop laughing :p
00:38:14 <GEORGE_W_BUSH> so does anyone here play openttd
00:43:04 <PeterT> oh, never heard of it!
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01:16:40 <Eddi|zuHause> # you've never really known
01:16:42 <Eddi|zuHause> # that when the white flag is flown
01:16:43 <Eddi|zuHause> # no one, no one, no one has
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06:29:15 <andythenorth> Rubidium: could newgrf debug show the current production multiplier for each output cargo?
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07:20:43 <andythenorth> Rubidium: industry production multiplier is at offset 13
07:23:26 <andythenorth> industry location restrictions are easy to dream up
07:23:38 <andythenorth> but mostly boring in gameplay yes/no?
07:39:00 <planetmaker> I'd say rather annoying than boring, though
07:41:55 <andythenorth> I think I mostly won't bother then. Some industries are already near town. I won't add many more restrictions.
07:42:05 <andythenorth> remind me I said that if I change my mind :P
07:49:51 <andythenorth> cb 28 - industry location permissibility. I'm missing a way to detect if the construction attempt is the game or the player
07:50:55 <andythenorth> if variable A7 was available during industry construction....that would do it
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08:16:45 <planetmaker> hm... very crazy idea:
08:16:59 <planetmaker> let farms produce food with different sub cargos
08:17:16 <planetmaker> Food processing plants accept that - and produce food with other sub cargos
08:17:18 <planetmaker> Would that make sense?
08:17:56 <planetmaker> Like a food factory gets potatoes and meat and cheese - and makes chips
08:18:19 <planetmaker> but at the same time the food could - instead of being delivered to the factory - directly be delivered to a twon
08:18:44 <planetmaker> That would make the game easier in the respect that the amount of cargos gets reduced
08:19:05 <planetmaker> But it would keep everything else
08:19:13 <andythenorth> so food -> town and food -> processing plant -> food -> town ??
08:19:35 <planetmaker> or would that be too boring?
08:19:41 <andythenorth> why keep the processing plant(s)?
08:19:54 <planetmaker> in order to get different sub cargos
08:20:14 <planetmaker> a farm will give you fruit, meat, grain
08:20:34 <planetmaker> a processing plant will give you chips, caned vegies,...
08:20:49 <andythenorth> but these are just subtypes of food?
08:21:08 <planetmaker> and why do that? You can make two times money from the same cargo ;-)
08:21:24 <andythenorth> well it could work
08:21:27 <andythenorth> but it seems strange
08:21:35 <planetmaker> I agree, it's uncommon
08:21:41 <planetmaker> But basically passenger work that way
08:21:48 <andythenorth> food is an unsolved problem in my view
08:21:50 <planetmaker> towns are that kind of "industry"
08:22:44 <andythenorth> FWIW there is a 'market' planned for towns which will accept farm cargos and produce food, but that's quite different to your suggestion
08:23:04 <planetmaker> a "market" which produces?
08:23:15 <andythenorth> wholesale market
08:23:43 <planetmaker> well, yes, but... they don't produce ;-) They just retail b2b :-P
08:24:01 <andythenorth> some will slaughter animals, wash vegies etc
08:24:10 <andythenorth> and remember...it's a game :)
08:24:27 <dih> happy 1. may all ye germans ^^
08:24:40 <dih> (actually wanted to go shopping today) grr
08:24:57 <planetmaker> andythenorth: sure, it's a game, I know very well :-)
08:25:05 <Rubidium> dih: here the shops are still open
08:25:20 <planetmaker> actually your commit message gave me the idea to this food only chains
08:25:37 <planetmaker> andythenorth: or what does r903 do?
08:34:55 <andythenorth> planetmaker: r913 was a ticket to have the arable farm produce cargo 'sugar beet' (temperate/arctic) or 'sugar cane' (tropic)
08:35:36 <Rubidium> peter1138: why oh why do they build soccer stadiums in/near towns?
08:35:50 <andythenorth> it's where the people live?
08:36:31 <Rubidium> andythenorth: yes, and that is the primary reason why you should keep stadiums far away from towns
08:37:01 <peter1138> yeah, but these guys are just coming to the town centre to 'protest', not to any stadium
08:39:28 <andythenorth> electricity electricity electricity
08:39:30 <Rubidium> oh, that's even worse...
08:39:55 * andythenorth thinks some industries will increase production if there is a power plant nearby
08:40:00 <andythenorth> how near is 'nearby'?
08:40:42 <__ln___> the distance from the couch to the fridge
08:42:31 <andythenorth> 1FE seems excessive?
08:43:56 <andythenorth> Rubidium: did you see my debug feature request earlier?
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08:48:19 <planetmaker> andythenorth: "nearby" = f(map size)
08:48:24 <theholyduck> i should do a feature request for tram MULTI TRACK DRIFTIIING
08:49:10 <theholyduck> seems like quite alot of effort though ;(
08:49:16 <andythenorth> planetmaker: possibly. Or just 64dec
08:49:27 <planetmaker> andythenorth: it's not possible to get info about the "electicity production" of "nearby" power plants, right?
08:49:49 <planetmaker> ok, then 64 is fine
08:50:05 <planetmaker> for steel and such?
08:50:15 <andythenorth> it could be if var 68 was extended
08:50:47 <andythenorth> I have been pondering for ages whether to try and extend var 68 myself
08:53:45 <andythenorth> there is a gameplay reason to not care about the actual production at the powerplant
08:54:25 <andythenorth> lets say I have a fertiliser plant. if I am delivering coal to power plant A (40 tiles distant) then I get a production boost.
08:54:58 <andythenorth> Now the game builds a power plant at location B (30 tiles distant). But I don't notice. No production boost at my fertiliser plant :|
08:56:12 <andythenorth> and the coal is wasted
08:59:06 <andythenorth> wouldn't it be useful if an industry could 'close and build a different industry at this location'
09:01:46 <planetmaker> like close with successor industry :-)
09:01:54 <planetmaker> that'd also take care of expanding an industry :-)
09:03:28 <andythenorth> rebuild with bigger layout
09:03:45 <andythenorth> in actual games, it might be completely blocked by stations etc
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09:09:36 * andythenorth ponders closures again
09:10:15 <planetmaker> generally they suck
09:10:22 <planetmaker> for serviced industries
09:10:32 <planetmaker> they destroy your network
09:12:37 <andythenorth> I am going to prevent closure for serviced industry.
09:12:51 <andythenorth> I think there will be a parameter: no closures / closure if unserviced for n years
09:13:05 <andythenorth> (for secondary industry)
09:13:06 <planetmaker> well. Unserviced industries may do what they want
09:13:25 <planetmaker> ok... maybe not for scenario things :-) So the parameter "no closures, no openings" might be nice
09:13:31 <andythenorth> not if I want to prevent the 'great industry death' problem five years after game start
09:14:03 <andythenorth> (that was in response to 'unserviced industries...'
09:14:24 <andythenorth> no openings is interesting. That would be 'total sandbox' mode
09:22:45 <planetmaker> yes, for scenarios and contests :-)
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09:24:24 <andythenorth> planetmaker: primary industry....
09:24:55 <andythenorth> no closures / no closures, no openings / other stuff
09:25:30 <andythenorth> other stuff relates to closure and production change. I haven't figured it out yet :P
09:28:57 <andythenorth> Terkhen: you've played with FIRS where primary production doesn't change except when ENSP / FMSP are supplied?
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09:29:57 <nighthawk_c_m> Morning everyone
09:30:04 <Terkhen> delivering supplies to primary industries is always the first thing I do
09:30:30 <andythenorth> have you noticed that there are *no* random production changes (up or down) :)
09:30:41 <andythenorth> I thought it would be weird, but I actually like it
09:30:45 <Terkhen> I have noticed that production never goes down
09:31:06 <andythenorth> do you think it should?
09:31:43 <nighthawk_c_m> I hate it when production suddenly drops jamming trains at the stations
09:32:24 <andythenorth> Terkhen: my original intention was that production might randomly drop if no ENSP or FMSP are delivered
09:32:30 <Terkhen> yes, but in smaller steps and possibly with a limit
09:33:03 <andythenorth> so not the default behaviour of halving production :)
09:33:28 <Terkhen> if the industry is not serviced correctly then the production should probably drop too.. but also in smaller steps than original industries
09:34:08 <andythenorth> In my recent game I've found that's covered by the algorithm that distributes cargo to stations
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09:36:55 <nighthawk_c_m> If you could do that in smaller steps it would be great I think. Main annoyance is the mentioned 50% drop - and depending on thje industries previous outputs you suddenly have a bunch of trains digging in their noses waiting.
09:38:01 <nighthawk_c_m> Anyone know how I set up a game so I see the temperate climate and can make use of the varying snowline feature the canadian stations set offers?
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09:58:57 <planetmaker> andythenorth: for contests or so a setting like "no closures / openings / prod. changes makes sense, for primaries
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11:02:37 <nighthawk_c_m> andythenorth: How can I add translations, or contribute? There are a few terms missing in German
11:07:22 <PeterT> is it a bug that openttd says "Game still paused (number of players)" twice? [07:06:31] <SN1> *** Game still paused (number of players)
11:07:22 <PeterT> [07:06:33] <SN1> *** Game still paused (number of players)
11:08:50 <Rubidium> nighthawk_c_m: sounds like you've loaded some untranslated NewGRFs
11:09:52 <nighthawk_c_m> As Industry GRF only FIRS
11:10:38 <nighthawk_c_m> 50% of the lumber miss is in german - the rest of the text lines seems to be untranslated
11:11:02 <nighthawk_c_m> its not looking like a mess, more like the lines are just not translated yet
11:11:06 <Rubidium> so the NewGRF is untranslated
11:11:19 <Rubidium> talk to andythenorth about fixing that :)
11:11:35 <nighthawk_c_m> Thats why I asked him on how to contribute to the translation
11:11:51 <nighthawk_c_m> but hes away atm
11:12:37 <Rubidium> woopsie, missed his name there
11:12:52 <frosch123> you could also just kick planetmaker :p
11:14:11 <nighthawk_c_m> 0.o what would that be good for?
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11:18:51 <frosch123> i would guess he did the current translation
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11:20:20 <planetmaker> ah, FIRS translation? Yeah... not updated in eons.
11:20:29 <planetmaker> too much in a flux
11:26:54 <planetmaker> but I guess it could get one again.
11:28:57 <planetmaker> The German language file has to look the same - but the actual text being replaced by the German text of course
11:30:03 <nighthawk_c_m> well, I think there are at the moment a few basic elemts which I believe will stay for a while - I'll have a look - so basically I just edit all the stuff and Send him the File?
11:30:06 <planetmaker> but I'm currently not even 100% sure whether it's used
11:30:24 <planetmaker> nighthawk_c_m: basically yes.
11:30:35 <planetmaker> The better way would be to make a ticket at the bug tracker
11:30:44 <planetmaker> That's what it's for ;-)
11:31:09 <nighthawk_c_m> Well, there has to be some German stuff - basically the game Stuff thats from the original industries stays german, all new things seem to be in engliush
11:31:26 <nighthawk_c_m> Uh .. er I never wrked with such a system before ...
11:31:48 <planetmaker> yes; that might exactly be a result of "no translations". What is translated is OpenTTD strings, I guess
11:31:57 <planetmaker> BUT: if there's a proper translation it's easy to add.
11:31:57 <Terkhen> nighthawk_c_m: strings for existing industries and cargos are taken from OpenTTD
11:32:20 <planetmaker> yeah, that's what we talk about
11:32:53 <planetmaker> You might use it for reference or so
11:33:03 <planetmaker> but use the layout of the English one
11:33:18 <Terkhen> I did not know that the translation support was already there :)
11:33:20 <planetmaker> and 7F ->02 and FF -> 82
11:33:35 <planetmaker> Terkhen: well, in principle for ages ;-)
11:33:43 <planetmaker> But... maybe it broke meanwhile
11:34:04 <nighthawk_c_m> Ok, So I'll grab that NFO stuff and just translate it as far as I get - I'll abuse the english one and just rename it :-P
11:34:06 <planetmaker> it was one of the first things FooBar and myself designed for the newgrfs.
11:34:31 <planetmaker> nighthawk_c_m: the name has to be exactly as the german one I linked ;-)
11:34:52 <nighthawk_c_m> That way I don't loose any formatting as I have no freaking idea of the NFO coding around the words :-P
11:35:02 <nighthawk_c_m> Well I can always rename it like that.
11:35:27 <nighthawk_c_m> Is tehre a way for me to upload it to the dev stuff after working for review or so?
11:35:54 <planetmaker> sure. But you need to register at the devzone.
11:36:53 <planetmaker> and I just checked: it's like assumed: currently there's no active translation
11:37:07 <planetmaker> but it's just adding a line which includes it
11:37:28 <planetmaker> so, Terkhen you could also do that ;-)
11:38:27 <Terkhen> I'm already checking the languages... there is a waste cargo?
11:41:26 <nighthawk_c_m> Not implemented so far afaik
11:42:02 <nighthawk_c_m> Ok, so I registered at the dev Zone, how can I add myself as a contributor and tell that I take over the german translation?
11:45:58 <planetmaker> Terkhen: yes, there is afaik
11:46:11 <frosch123> nighthawk_c_m: first get started with translating :)
11:46:14 <planetmaker> small one-tile things in towns which produce it
11:46:26 <planetmaker> and waste disposal sites afaik
11:46:27 <Terkhen> I have never seen cotton either
11:46:34 <planetmaker> hm... I should play again a FIRS game :-)
11:46:42 <planetmaker> Terkhen: tropic only
11:46:49 <Terkhen> I always play tropic :P
11:47:02 <planetmaker> then it's maybe not yet implemented. Dunno
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11:47:22 <planetmaker> cotton farm missing or so
11:47:23 <nighthawk_c_m> Tropic has a problem afaik - I didn't see the water anywhere - like the water you need to get to the towns
11:47:39 <planetmaker> make another bug report about that :-)
11:48:10 <Terkhen> they are present, at least at the nightlies
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12:06:00 <nighthawk_c_m> I see that Andy has created a few industrial terms that are completely unknow to any dictionary :-P
12:06:09 <nighthawk_c_m> Lumber TReatment plant as an example :-P
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12:13:31 <nighthawk_c_m> those are axon's - french special characters
12:13:57 <planetmaker> Terkhen: are the strings marked as UTF-8 by starting with the thorn?
12:14:25 <Terkhen> in spanish they are called tildes :P
12:14:43 <planetmaker> Terkhen: or use the escape for the thorn for better readability
12:14:54 <planetmaker> thanks, frosch123 :-)
12:15:37 <__ln___> Terkhen: acentos.... ñ tiene una tilde
12:16:10 <Terkhen> __ln___: in spanish, "acento" and "tilde" are not synonims
12:16:27 <Terkhen> planetmaker: I'm not sure of what you mean
12:17:49 <__ln___> Terkhen: is tilde the common name for acentos and the ~ symbol?
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12:19:00 <frosch123> Terkhen: "Þ" is the nfo control character for "this string uses utf8". just start every string with it
12:20:10 <frosch123> don't ask me, why such a weird letter is used for Þat Þough.
12:20:12 <planetmaker> Terkhen: or add C3 9E in front of it
12:20:24 <planetmaker> without quotation marks before the first quotation mark for the string
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13:01:45 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r19743 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Fix: NewGrfs could access map bits of not yet constructed industries and houses during construction callbacks.
13:10:01 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r19744 /trunk/src/ (9 files): -Add [FS#3477]: [NewGRF] Access to random bits of houses and industries from construction callbacks 17, 28 and 2F. That is: The randombits the house/industry will start with, if construction succeeds.
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14:21:11 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r19745 /trunk/src/viewport.cpp: -Fix: The GUI is controlled by _local_company, not _current_company.
14:33:56 <__ln___> is this grammatical: "El registro es gratuito y con él puede obtener información ..."?
14:34:34 <__ln___> i thought él is a personal pronoun
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14:52:23 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
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15:25:34 <Yexo> not being able to skip the main engine action3 without also skipping all livery overrides makes more sense
15:27:25 <nighthawk_c_m> anyone have a clue where I can find the arctic climate grf nowadays?
15:30:03 <Alberth> what "the arctic climate grf" ?
15:30:20 <Yexo> if you mean "alphine climate grf" just google for it
15:30:48 <Alberth> OpenGFX, GRFCrawler, Google, BaNaNaS are usual places
15:32:30 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r19746 /trunk/src/ (window.cpp window_gui.h): -Fix [FS#3675]: Do not recenter usually centered windows when resizing main window or changing language, if they have been moved/resized before.
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15:57:19 <blathijs> planetmaker: It seems the 0.2.4 opengfx tarball contains a bunch of ._filename files (where filename is another file from the tarball)
15:57:33 <blathijs> planetmaker: Those files contain binary junk with MACOSX in them, it seems
15:58:48 <blathijs> planetmaker: Seems like they're not in SVN, so the creation of the tarball was probably done on a mac?
15:59:10 <blathijs> planetmaker: s/SVN/hg/
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16:00:58 <blathijs> There's 62 of those files in the tarball...
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16:04:08 <Ammler> blathijs: does that break building on debian?
16:04:08 <blathijs> That's 248KB of wasted space!
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16:04:32 <blathijs> Ammler: Probably not, haven't tried yet
16:05:10 <blathijs> It's just not very pretty, nor useful, so perhaps it should be avoided on future releases
16:05:15 <Ammler> blathijs: the update is quite important
16:05:22 <Ammler> trains are very ugly on 0.2.3
16:06:00 <blathijs> Ammler: Yeah, I'm working on the update, it's just that I've only just arrived a the "building" part :-p
16:06:11 <blathijs> I noticed the files on the "importing" part :-p
16:10:11 <blathijs> Ammler: Build worked just fine
16:12:16 <blathijs> Hmm, lintian also warns about the .hgtags file that's in the source tarball, but I think I've said that before?
16:22:47 <Ammler> mäh, that still is in?
16:23:02 <Ammler> I thought, he "fixed" that...
16:26:34 <Ammler> if he doesn't arise, we should make a ticket again...
16:28:07 <Ammler> blathijs: could you add your excess there :-)
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17:18:16 * andythenorth decides what to do about primary industry random production changes, closure etc
17:18:22 * andythenorth scratches head quite a bit
17:18:55 <nighthawk_c_m> Hi andythenorth
17:19:30 <andythenorth> I know some stuff: ENSP/FMSP to increase production. I know how to decrease production.
17:19:43 <andythenorth> Not sure what to do about the game's default random changes
17:19:53 <andythenorth> Also whether to allow primary industry closure?
17:20:40 <nighthawk_c_m> Well, I would make a parameter to decide whether the standard closure system is applied or no closures at all happen
17:20:54 <andythenorth> that's kind of my thinking
17:21:04 <andythenorth> but the standard closure system is actually a bit complicated
17:21:16 <nighthawk_c_m> "nd would be awesome for some testing as the "all industry close after 5 years of gametime " can be rather annoying
17:21:29 <andythenorth> I want to prevent that
17:21:50 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> industry location restrictions are easy to dream up but mostly boring in gameplay yes/no? <- i think they could be good for random creation, but bad for manual placement (scenario editor, funding)
17:21:57 <andythenorth> frosch123 Rubidium some grf local storage would be really really useful
17:22:34 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that's why I was looking to see if the location permissibility cb can test whether it is game or player trying to build the industry
17:23:18 <Eddi|zuHause> if it's not possible currently, it should be easy to add
17:23:47 <Yexo> I'm quite sure it is possible, but I don't know how exactly
17:24:46 <andythenorth> industry var A7 looks relevant, but might not exist when testing construction?
17:25:22 <andythenorth> I would like to control how the game distributes industries, whilst letting players put them wherever they like
17:25:32 <Yexo> only industry var available when the industry doesn't exist yet is 0x43
17:25:51 <frosch123> the variables accessable during cb 28 are mentioned at the cb 28 description
17:25:57 <frosch123> and you can tell the origin iirc
17:26:13 <Eddi|zuHause> might be subject to the same change that George requested for the random bits
17:26:55 <andythenorth> I'm surprised there isn't a var that already has that info
17:27:03 <glx> you can at least check the game mode
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17:27:35 <Eddi|zuHause> glx: but the game mode is actually not relevant
17:27:51 <andythenorth> it seems like the kind of thing that is sometimes stuck in var 10 for example
17:27:55 <frosch123> hmm, maybe i confused it with cb 22
17:28:25 <andythenorth> I could hack on cb 22
17:28:59 <andythenorth> I could use cb22, check var 18, store the result, then branch cb 28 depending on the stored value
17:29:07 <andythenorth> do cbs always run in a reliable order?
17:29:36 <andythenorth> can't store in an industry not built yet?
17:30:13 <Yexo> it should be easy to make var A7 available in cb 28
17:30:40 <andythenorth> it would be useful :)
17:32:27 <frosch123> if cb 28 wouldn't be that headaching itself :)
17:34:14 <andythenorth> I am working on FIRS 0.2 at the moment, mostly it's code stuff like this.
17:34:26 <andythenorth> not many shiny features or graphics :o
17:36:35 <glx> Yexo: you need to update IndustryGetVariable() too I think
17:37:33 <Yexo> glx: not needed, there is an industry in IndustryGetVariable, so it works already
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17:37:47 <Yexo> (all variables are available in cb28, just most don't have a meaningful value)
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17:40:12 <andythenorth> line ending traumas again
17:41:38 <frosch123> Yexo: you should better add it to IndustryLocationGetVariable
17:42:01 * andythenorth has forgotten how to get a diff from a browser into a usable format
17:42:20 <Yexo> frosch123: ah, I overlooked that function
17:42:26 <andythenorth> does hg require anything different to svn when it comes to patches?
17:42:32 <frosch123> if (industry == NULL) { <- i am quite sure that test is supposed to deny access to any of the variables, except it does not work as it would have to check ind->index != INVALID_INDUSTRY
17:43:31 <frosch123> andythenorth: usually svn patches are -p 0, while hg patches are -p 1
17:45:23 <Yexo> frosch123: industry can be NULL in case of some callbacks called from the gui
17:45:42 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19747 /trunk/src/lang/ (galician.txt turkish.txt ukrainian.txt unfinished/irish.txt):
17:45:42 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:42 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: galician - 22 changes by Condex
17:45:42 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: irish - 244 changes by tem
17:45:42 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: turkish - 25 changes by niw3
17:45:43 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: ukrainian - 2 changes by Madvin
17:46:17 <frosch123> Yexo: that is interesting as i added some assert(ind != NULL) some hours ago :p
17:47:33 <Yexo> frosch123: industry_gui.cpp:68
17:47:35 <frosch123> i see, cb 22 and the fund text
17:48:40 <Yexo> Terkhen: what is the string you use?
17:49:33 <Terkhen> C3 9E "\7C cajas de suministros de ingeniería" 00
17:53:32 <Yexo> Terkhen: that's a bug in openttd's code
17:53:41 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r19748 /trunk/src/newgrf_industries.cpp: -Fix (r19743): Callback 22 and 38 are called with ind == NULL.
17:55:12 <frosch123> yexo, Terkhen: Finally, characters 7B..7F no longer function as the above formatting instructions, but will display regular glyphs instead (provided they are installed; by default TTD has none at these codepoints). Instead, to use these formatting instructions in UTF-8 mode, you need to use their Private Use Area codepoint at U+E0xx.
17:55:28 <frosch123> (quoted from the wiki)
17:55:50 * andythenorth defeated by patching :|
17:57:12 <Yexo> it's still a bug in openttd as the control codes 0E / 0F should keep working
17:57:51 <dih> *cough* Yexo *cough* squirrel *cough*
17:58:20 <Yexo> dih: you can guess the status of that :p
17:59:29 <dih> i am just giving you a little ... encouragement :-D
17:59:33 <frosch123> maybe it would be useful if andythenorth would also use the utf8 form in the english texts to simplify translations
17:59:53 * andythenorth is happy to do that
18:00:07 <andythenorth> or someone else can contribute patches to the language file
18:00:14 <Terkhen> Yexo, frosch123: thanks, it works now
18:01:33 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I can do it
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18:02:51 <andythenorth> Terkhen: you know where the lang file is?
18:03:17 <dih> TrueBrain: if your wt website is down anyway - do you still need the domain?
18:03:45 <Terkhen> andythenorth: yes, I have a working spanish translation now
18:03:53 <Terkhen> except for that UTF detail
18:03:58 <TrueBrain> need is a big word, but it was always ment as temporary .. so if you have a better goal for it, go for it :)
18:04:23 <andythenorth> Terkhen: feel free to fix 915
18:09:18 <nighthawk_c_m> andythenorth: I have done parts of the german translation for FIRS - how can I hand you the nfo?
18:09:42 <andythenorth> planetmaker: what's the best way to accept language translations for FIRS?
18:10:00 <nighthawk_c_m> probably needs UTF formatting too for some special german characters, if anyone tells me how to I'll be happy to fix it in the pnfo
18:11:29 <Terkhen> nighthawk_c_m: I'm currently coding a patch to add UTF support to the 7F_any.pnfo
18:12:08 <nighthawk_c_m> So there is no need for editing in the sub pnfo's - or rather copy that over to my german pnfo afterwards?
18:12:28 <Terkhen> you'll need to add these changes to your pnfo file
18:13:02 <andythenorth> you guys should be aware that FIRS texts currently change quite a lot as a result of playtesting (sorry!)
18:13:39 <Terkhen> no problem, I'm already following nightlies anyways
18:13:48 <nighthawk_c_m> No problem, there are a few word creations that I couldn't find in any dictionary - and a hobby to keep translating - my contribution to your great work :-P
18:14:10 <Terkhen> yeah, some stuff was really hard to translate :P
18:14:35 <nighthawk_c_m> Some word creations don't seem to exist - at least not in my websters dictionary :-)
18:14:44 <andythenorth> maybe I should make them more standard
18:15:30 <nighthawk_c_m> dredging is a verb
18:15:44 <nighthawk_c_m> thus hard to translate into german
18:15:50 <andythenorth> In the USA it might just be called a Dredge Operation
18:16:08 <nighthawk_c_m> That would rather be a Grain Farm
18:16:16 <Terkhen> in my case it was mostly stuff that I knew in english but couldn't think on a short spanish sentence for them
18:16:21 <nighthawk_c_m> as Arable is just referring to the underground / fields
18:16:35 <andythenorth> Crop Farm might be acceptable
18:16:58 <nighthawk_c_m> Make it Grain - only produces Grain atm - can be changed later on again if needed
18:17:18 <andythenorth> nighthawk_c_m that farm will also produce Sugar Beet / Sugar Cane as soon as I get around to it :)
18:17:32 <nighthawk_c_m> and I haven't done the message texts so far - only the Goods and the industries
18:17:52 <nighthawk_c_m> then Crop Farm would be better I assume (just suggesting)
18:18:01 <andythenorth> meanwhile....Yexo any chance of zipping that diff? I am having trouble getting it from the browser into an acceptable line-format
18:18:07 <andythenorth> unless the problem is hg
18:18:27 <Yexo> acceptable line format? just run dos2unix / unix2dox on it?
18:20:52 <Rubidium> nighthawk_c_m: wouldn't Arable farm be translated to something like Ackerbau?
18:21:03 <Terkhen> I never had problems using "save as" with firefox (except in windows, where it needs unix2dos)
18:21:06 <Ammler> curl <url> | patch -p0
18:21:47 <Yexo> patch should accept all line-endings anyway, so where is the problem exactly?
18:21:58 <nighthawk_c_m> Could be - I just used "Bauernhof"
18:22:09 <andythenorth> firefox used to work for me. But my svn checkouts of ottd failed. I have no way to fix them. I'm now using the hg checkout, I've never applied a patch with hg
18:22:12 <Rubidium> nighthawk_c_m: but that includes animal farms
18:22:31 <Yexo> andythenorth: you don't apply a patch with hg, you apply a patch with "patch"
18:22:38 <Yexo> that works eactly the same for a hg or svn checkout
18:22:50 * andythenorth is not very good at this end of stuff :(
18:23:16 <Rubidium> andythenorth: what Ammler said doesn't work?
18:23:37 <nighthawk_c_m> Rubidium: Worst case is atm the Mixedfarm - I will call taht Bauernhof then and pick up your idea for the Arable Farm
18:24:57 <Rubidium> andythenorth: what error does that give? (Guess curl: command not found)
18:25:13 <frosch123> nighthawk_c_m: it could be something like "Landwirtschaftsbetrieb" (arable farm), "Viehwirtschaftsbetrieb" (dairy farm), but yes mixed farm is hard
18:26:27 <Rubidium> andythenorth: cd .. and try again
18:26:36 <andythenorth> tried that. still fails
18:27:03 <nighthawk_c_m> MIxed Farm = Bauernhof / dairy Farm = Milchviehhaltung / ARABLEFARM "Ackerbau"
18:27:15 <Yexo> andythenorth: do "hg pull -u" first
18:28:07 <andythenorth> also tried -p1 as suggested by frosch123
18:28:20 * andythenorth wonders why all vcs systems seem to fail on his system
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18:28:55 <Rubidium> andythenorth: hunk failed means it did find the files to apply it to, just that applying itself failed
18:29:00 <andythenorth> this is an unpatched repo
18:29:15 <andythenorth> I just pulled trunk recently
18:29:19 <Rubidium> the other one is where it can't find the file to apply it to
18:29:27 <Rubidium> andythenorth: define recently?
18:29:59 <andythenorth> created the repo on 25th April... used hg pull -u within the last 5 mins
18:31:45 <Yexo> I know there is a gnuwin32 version of "patch" available that crashes if it reads a patch file with non-windows line endings, maybe you have a similar incompatible version of patch for mac?
18:31:55 <Rubidium> hmm, it fails with my patch too
18:32:30 <Rubidium> ah, we've got a too new version of trunk
18:33:06 <Rubidium> in other words, Yexo please svn up and remake the diff :)
18:34:22 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I have posted a fix for 915 at the task
18:35:31 <Terkhen> (to get the real diff click on the first link)
18:35:48 <andythenorth> Ammler: can you give Terkhen commit rights for FIRS?
18:37:26 <Ammler> andythenorth: yes, I can
18:37:38 <andythenorth> seems like a sensible route
18:37:54 <Ammler> Terken, do we have already a ssh public key from you?
18:40:10 <Terkhen> but I have to go, I'm already late :)
18:42:04 <andythenorth> Ammler: maybe tomorrow :)
18:42:23 <Yexo> andythenorth: updated patch online (same url0
18:43:12 <Ammler> andythenorth: add him as dev
18:43:15 <andythenorth> now I have to write some nfo to test it
18:43:35 <andythenorth> if he goes nuts and recodes all of FIRS (a) I don't mind (b) I can always revert ;)
18:44:41 <andythenorth> Yexo: so this just makes var A7 available in cb28, nothing else to know about?
18:47:10 <andythenorth> I don't have time to write the nfo right now, hopefully I will tonight or tomorrow
18:47:53 <BWJM> Is it possible to move a Coal Mine? Or at least to create a new one somewhere?
18:49:08 <frosch123> there is an advanced setting allowing to prospect primary industries, resp. to even fund them at a specific position
18:49:29 <frosch123> and there is the magic bulldozer cheat to remove one
18:49:45 *** Rhamphoryncus has joined #openttd
18:50:29 <BWJM> What is the difference between "prospecting" and "as other industries"?
18:51:23 *** JVassie has joined #openttd
18:51:57 <BWJM> Nevermind - Figured it out. Thanks
18:59:03 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r19749 /trunk/src/newgrf_industries.cpp: -Fix: [NewGRF] possible divide-by-zero if a newgrf checked industry var 42 while the production level was 0
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19:04:52 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r19750 /trunk/src/newgrf_industries.cpp: -Fix: Var 0x43 is not 'safe' during callbacks 22 and 38 either.
19:07:20 *** [com]buster has joined #openttd
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19:32:29 <glx> andythenorth: just saw your pastes, we said -p1 for hg
19:33:49 <glx> oh but it's an svn diff, so -p0
19:34:29 <glx> and of course always from root ;)
19:38:21 <Pyr0_> <i'm using 1.0.1 and wanted to try 32bbp (not the EZ just de normal zoom). Is Szvengar full pack the latest pack for 32bbp graphics?
19:41:37 <Pyr0_> Optimized full pack 11/04/2010 in one TAR file: Full pack.
19:41:57 <Pyr0_> is there any nightly build anywhere?
19:44:09 <nighthawkcm> Hmm... try searching the forums or on the openttdcoop devzone - usually there are nightlies for most developments
19:47:23 <Pyr0_> thanks but that is only for extras it's the baseset 8bbp replacement i'm looking for
19:50:04 <andythenorth> frosch123: resp. industry closures ('mass extinction')
19:50:19 <andythenorth> solving it correctly in newgrf is currently nigh-on impossible
19:50:41 <andythenorth> is it something that should be patched for? players keep on reporting it as an issue
19:50:57 <frosch123> hmm, didn't i made some patch a month ago or make random changes depend on number of industries?
19:51:23 <andythenorth> you did, but secondary industry still appears to go through mass waves of closure after 5 years
19:53:04 <frosch123> are you using the default test, or a custom one? and if you are using the default one, are you using "smooth economy" ?
19:53:44 <andythenorth> hmmm....closure is complicated :P
19:53:59 <andythenorth> you sent me industrychangesdependoncountinsteadmapsize.diff
19:54:28 * andythenorth wonders how far I tested that one
19:54:40 <frosch123> but I guess industry closure of secondary industries is still broken for smooth economy
19:55:34 <frosch123> so, does it work better if you disable "smooth economy" ?
19:55:37 <andythenorth> industry closure code is a spaghetti of possibilities, I find it hard to follow
19:56:23 <frosch123> i guess "smooth economy" should only be applied to primary industries.
19:56:49 <andythenorth> don't see why it would apply to secondary
19:57:21 <andythenorth> I forget, but I thought you maybe changed that already?
19:57:54 <frosch123> well, most important: smooth economy does production/closure decisions for every industry every month, while non-smooth does one change in a map-size specific interval
19:58:47 <andythenorth> so I always use smooth economy....and I always see the mass-extinctions :) which makes sense
19:58:57 <frosch123> for a sane balance creation and closure should use the same "interval-type"
19:59:38 <andythenorth> my suggestion was (a) prevent more than one of same industry type closing in a month (b) make the 'protected' period a newgrf action 0 property
20:00:12 <andythenorth> I have 90% good nfo code to handle closure properly, but without grf-local storage I can't handle point (a) above
20:00:19 <frosch123> (a) basically means "no smooth-economy for secondary industries"
20:00:50 <frosch123> wrt. b) imo "protection periods" are stupid by design :p
20:02:05 <frosch123> i cannot see any use in protecting a new industry a certain period. if the closure is not balanced then it will just close down after the protection period.
20:02:07 <andythenorth> because I have yet to find the 'right' length for them :P
20:02:31 <andythenorth> can we think of alternatives? Because I ran smack into the same issue
20:03:09 <andythenorth> this is probably one of the most reported genuine issues I've seen players report in the forums
20:03:25 <frosch123> imo, we should test a) first, before discussing b)
20:04:06 <andythenorth> hmm. a) might still suck
20:04:55 <frosch123> with smooth economy exactly 1/180 of the industries will close down every month starting after 5 years
20:05:24 <frosch123> so on big maps that has to result in masses closing down at once
20:05:56 <frosch123> using non-smooth will at least make them not close all on the 1st :)
20:06:35 <andythenorth> if this was a flash game, I would generate a range of random numbers and use those as chances of closure. I would distribute those to industries, prevent any industry sharing the same chance, and maybe some weightings
20:07:10 <andythenorth> ...to make some industries far less likely to close than others
20:07:42 <andythenorth> but in nfo I have no way to distribute a range across industries. I've thought of a hack using the town index, but that's a messy hack
20:07:51 <frosch123> you can do that all with the random production change callback
20:08:17 <andythenorth> yup, I have working code for nearly all of it
20:09:16 <frosch123> callback 29 has random bits and can return close or stay. there are also random bits for the industry, the industrylayout, the industry colour, and well the industry type
20:09:34 <andythenorth> but they are never guaranteed random across the grf
20:09:52 <andythenorth> sorry, that's badly worded
20:09:53 <frosch123> what do you mean with "random across the grf" ?
20:10:17 <andythenorth> I need pseudo-random :P
20:10:33 <frosch123> random is random. there more industries there are on big maps, the more randomness has no effect as it will just turn into grey
20:11:01 <frosch123> so, what kind of "random" do you want?
20:12:14 <andythenorth> think we discussed this at some length before....the conclusion was that fooling around with random / pseudo random was a bad route
20:12:33 <frosch123> btw. if there are lots of industries (on big maps), i cannot imagine anything but lots of closures. (that is, news about closures are silly in any case on big maps)
20:12:40 <andythenorth> think we concluded that grf-local storage was the only practical route to prevent >1 industry of same type closing per month
20:12:59 <andythenorth> I'm not too bothered about *really* big maps with *lots* of industries
20:13:19 <andythenorth> the gameplay effect is diminished. So 3 steel mills close in one month, but you have 75 left. Big deal
20:13:27 <frosch123> see, that is what i totally do not understand :) "prevent > 1 industry of same type closing per month" sounds totally wrong if there are 1000 industries of the type on the map
20:14:06 <andythenorth> the problem is on smaller maps / sensible numbers of industries
20:14:22 <andythenorth> 'boom, and all my industries were gone'
20:14:51 <frosch123> i could understand if you would want to enforce some distribution of closured, e.g. either pick industries with far disatance from each other, or pick a bunch of industries from one region. but just limiting the amount...
20:14:51 <nighthawkcm> Well, the major problem arises with more complicated industry setups like ecs or firs - and if one industry is there a 100 times - you can always change the map creation industry setting or use the magic bulldozer
20:15:07 <andythenorth> in fact, it's not even industries of the same type. Suddenly after 5 years, the map loses an awful lot of industries...and players find it weird
20:15:51 <frosch123> but that is the problem of the weird "5 years". then that 5 year period should be randomised on game start, so they do not start at once
20:16:17 <andythenorth> yes to the randomised - but across what range?
20:16:20 <andythenorth> I just want to spread industry closures in time. The most robust way is a limit to the total number of industries that can close in a month. That limit can scale by map size / number of industries
20:16:37 <andythenorth> And to implement that needs grf-local storage, or have the game handle it :)
20:16:42 <nighthawkcm> well, if you paly a 1024 * 1024 map - with all the industry firs has, not a single one should close down as there is no overflow under normal circumstances
20:16:53 <frosch123> across 0-5 years of course. that is what it turns into when playing more than 5 years
20:17:16 <frosch123> [22:16] <andythenorth> And to implement that needs grf-local storage, or have the game handle it :) <- no, that is just point a)
20:18:01 <andythenorth> IIRC I spent some time trying to distribute the closure period. Maybe I need to revise my code :o
20:24:10 <andythenorth> if only I could do 'closure_period_this_industry = array.pop(random_position)' where array contains months * num industries
20:26:07 <andythenorth> I am missing something fricking obvious somewhere :P
20:27:43 <Alberth> aside from the fact that a local NewGRF cannot not decide about such global matters?
20:28:25 <Alberth> not to mention the disaster that you get when you ever want to have a scenario
20:28:31 <andythenorth> Alberth: should I even by trying to solve this problem?
20:28:51 <Alberth> I believe you shouldn't
20:28:53 <andythenorth> what's the scenario disaster?
20:29:12 <Alberth> some form of scripted economic control
20:29:44 <andythenorth> I don't think FIRS should be controlling industry closure to this degree.
20:30:12 <andythenorth> But this is the most common player complaint I get. I guess I have to try and do *something* about it :(
20:30:13 <Alberth> gives nice results and VERY complicated work-arounds when factories don't bother about it, and close down on their own
20:30:38 <Alberth> the same happens with plain industry chains
20:31:35 <Alberth> so why is it so much more of a problem in your chain?
20:31:56 <andythenorth> well it's pretty annoying in the default chain
20:32:15 <Alberth> yeah, OpenTTD sucks in this respect
20:33:30 <frosch123> [22:24] <andythenorth> if only I could do 'closure_period_this_industry = array.pop(random_position)' where array contains months * num industries <- you have persistent storage and var 67?
20:34:46 <andythenorth> still very easy for an industry to close in the same month as other industries. The array.pop line matters in my pseudo code :P
20:35:02 <andythenorth> Alberth: well if one of us could figure out what *should* be done, I can't see the actual fix being very hard to implement in OTTD
20:35:21 <andythenorth> except that economy code is already quite a spaghetti when I tried to read it
20:35:50 <Alberth> no doubt it is the usual mess :)
20:36:54 <andythenorth> too many fricking built in options combined with newgrf support that has even more options....
20:37:05 <Alberth> andythenorth: as far as I can see, to have a nice global solution, you need a global plan, or be able to communicate between plants so you can compute a plan.
20:37:33 <andythenorth> all we need to do is persuade players that the game didn't suddenly kill all the industries at once
20:37:37 <Alberth> neither is possible afaik in NewGRF, thus something else is needed
20:38:15 <andythenorth> I love that filename :)
20:41:04 <frosch123> Alberth: we can add an advanced setting to scale _economy.industry_daily_change_counter. that way creation, closure and production-changes could be slowed down while keeping the ratio inmodified
20:41:41 <frosch123> that would allow players to have the same amount of industry changes on a map with 5000 industries as on a map with 10 industries
20:41:48 <frosch123> so they can read all news :p
20:41:55 <Alberth> smooth_economy ? 180 : 2 <-- wasn't that to prevent a flood of messages at the first of the month?
20:42:01 <andythenorth> people still have news turned on?
20:42:55 <frosch123> Alberth: previously that code was executed every month for every industry for smooth, and every month (on 256x256) for _one_ industry for non-smooth
20:43:16 <frosch123> that change disabled smooth for secondary industries as it is unbalanced with creation of new industries
20:44:23 <Alberth> frosch123: I was thnking about some form of feedback control where you have a set-point of x industries, and you count the actual number, and then decide whether to create a new industry.
20:44:41 <Alberth> *set-point for each type
20:44:49 <frosch123> players could also set that counter increment to zero, and would then get some kind of manual industries when using non-smooth economy
20:45:39 <Alberth> having manual industries sounds like a useful option to me
20:45:54 <frosch123> then the same setting would need applying to the smooth economy of primary industries. however, in any case newgrfs which close industries via the random callback are doomed in any case (but they are already now)
20:46:30 <Alberth> my solution was to ctreate a new industry when that happens, a few months later :p
20:46:34 *** [com]buster is now known as Combuster
20:47:50 <frosch123> Alberth: that reminds me about a different issue. you can control the initial amount of industries created on a map, but in the long run it will always converge to the same amount
20:48:07 <Alberth> frosch123: cannot oversee what all changes do, but patch looks useful
20:48:12 * andythenorth tests the patch from frosch123
20:48:33 <andythenorth> five years on fast forward I guess. Terkhen has a better way, but I don't know how to do it:o
20:53:24 <Alberth> doesn't sound like a good plan, you'll end with a mono-culture in industries :p
20:55:08 <andythenorth> game started 1990, first industry closed 27-03-1991
20:55:20 <andythenorth> second closure 13-05-1991
20:59:03 <frosch123> hmm, no, i missed the point of "industrychangesdependoncountinsteadmapsize.diff" :p it does not affect closure/creation ratio, but prevents a single industry on a 2kx2k map changing production twice a day
21:00:27 <andythenorth> vehicles are much simpler than industries :P
21:04:30 <andythenorth> 01-08-1992: two power stations close in same month
21:04:34 <andythenorth> but....that's my code :)
21:04:53 <andythenorth> this is not exactly a scientific test
21:05:35 <frosch123> what about new industries?
21:05:38 <Alberth> sure it is, you just need to repeat it often enough :)
21:06:55 <andythenorth> frosch123: two new industries built in 1990, none since
21:09:19 <andythenorth> 22-02-1993 new fruit plantation
21:10:04 * andythenorth wonders how new industry construction chance interacts with probability during random gameplay for each industry?
21:10:23 <frosch123> ah, yes, i can remember that day. me any my school mates visited the plantation
21:10:42 <andythenorth> must have been a nice day out to Tinbourne
21:13:34 <andythenorth> new steel mill just got built 28-10-1993
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21:34:11 <frosch123> ind->last_prod_year = _cur_year - RandomRange(5); <- so, what does not work about that?
21:34:55 <andythenorth> it's 1990, sign?
21:35:22 <frosch123> (sure it would fail if you start in year 1-5 :p)
21:46:33 * andythenorth gives up on industry closure (again) :P
21:47:30 <andythenorth> FIRS will prevent closure until we've figured out a good way to solve the unsolvable :)
21:59:14 <Lakie> Just quickly, which plane is the x plane in (o)ttd?
21:59:34 <Rubidium> the plane that bombs ufos?
22:00:45 <frosch123> top of viewport.cpp
22:01:00 <andythenorth> frosch123: I am actually baffled why your last_prod_year patch produces those results
22:01:09 <andythenorth> far as I can see it should work
22:01:25 <andythenorth> I've read industry_cmd.cpp
22:01:27 <frosch123> andythenorth: actually it seems to work for me
22:02:00 <frosch123> though i uses default industries
22:02:17 <frosch123> maybe firs is unbalanced as there are more secondary industries than primary?
22:03:42 <andythenorth> it just seems weird that there are still very few closures in the first 5 years, then a mass wave
22:06:25 <frosch123> i might do some statistics tomorrow comparing firs and default industries
22:06:53 <andythenorth> Terkhen had a patch that outputs closures to the console IIRC
22:08:01 <frosch123> well, unless it is more than a few printfs i can faster do that myself than asking :p
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22:40:28 <planetmaker> I'd propose a poison distribution of lifetime till closure for industries
22:40:45 <planetmaker> with max=5(?) 10(?) years
22:41:25 <planetmaker> maybe map size dependent
22:41:46 <planetmaker> as building speed = linear, and mapsize = quadratic behaviour
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