IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-04-19
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01:08:44 <Eddi|zuHause> from the category "songs that don't make any sense":
01:09:05 <Eddi|zuHause> # Someone left the cake out in the rain
01:09:07 <Eddi|zuHause> # I don't think that I can take it
01:09:08 <Eddi|zuHause> # 'Cause it took so long to bake it
01:09:10 <Eddi|zuHause> # And I'll never have that recipe again
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06:49:12 <planetmaker> oi oi, good morning chaps
06:51:18 <planetmaker> we had a beatifully colourful sun rise here :-) So far so good :-)
06:53:46 <planetmaker> I mostly don't care about pollen. Luckily
06:53:55 <planetmaker> The usually only add a nice scent to the air.
06:54:19 <planetmaker> Though there is probably one kind which lets me sneeze, too
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06:58:00 <Mazur> Pollencount means nothing to me.
06:58:12 <Terkhen> It is more of a wish than an statement :)
06:59:22 <Terkhen> I'm allergic to olive polen, and I live in the zone with the biggest concentration of olive trees of the world
06:59:52 <Terkhen> luckily this year is not being very strong
07:00:00 <planetmaker> he... at least you have fresh native olive oli for cooking then ;-)
07:02:29 <Ammler> pollen mixed with ash :-)
07:03:12 <Mazur> Why has Ashley gotten mixed up with Pollen?
07:03:47 <Mazur> Olive oil mayonaise is yuck, but olives are yummy.
07:03:57 <Mazur> And olive oil is good for baking.
07:04:09 <Mazur> Lots of unsaturated fats.
07:05:23 <planetmaker> olive oil is also good for salad dressings
07:05:54 <Mazur> Sunflower oil is good for mayonaise.
07:06:03 <planetmaker> and very good for Tomatoes, Mozarella cheese, add olive oil, vinegar and basil... yummi :-)
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07:06:50 <Mazur> Somehow I don'r see that working.
07:09:33 <planetmaker> you don't see tomatoes, mozarella, basil, oil and balsamico vinegar working? Me neither. I see it rather eaten ;-)
07:10:05 <Mazur> Not if it's Basil Fawlty.
07:10:52 <Mazur> "misinterpreting" basil.
07:10:54 <planetmaker> right.... Probably the joke only works on native speakers ;-)
07:11:07 * planetmaker doesn't know any other meanings
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07:11:22 <Mazur> And you have never seen Fawlty Towers.
07:11:33 * planetmaker has no idea what that would be
07:11:46 <planetmaker> nor actually my dictionary
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07:12:29 <Mazur> John Cleese as an inept hotel-owner in Torquay, hag-ridden by his wife.
07:12:59 <TT1a1a1> lol, just spent half a billion linking up Scotland's oil rigs to the main land to find out that I cant build the oil refinery where I wanted, is there a console command that will let me build a refinery anywhere?
07:13:34 <planetmaker> you can only set the max distance to 48(?) from the border
07:13:53 <planetmaker> Mazur, sounds like a movie I haven't seen ;-)
07:13:58 <TT1a1a1> how do i set the max distance?
07:14:26 <planetmaker> ah. Even less of a wonder that I haven't seen it.
07:14:34 <planetmaker> nor ever heart of it ;-)
07:15:08 <planetmaker> maybe in Britain ;-)
07:15:22 <Mazur> Aftr all, John Cleese is a Monty Python member.
07:15:24 <planetmaker> TT1a1a1, in the advanced settings
07:16:05 <Mazur> Quite popular in Germany, too.
07:16:41 <planetmaker> Whatever :-) I was never known for the broadness of my knowledge in TV / movie stuff
07:17:21 <TT1a1a1> ffs, whos idea was that? and why?
07:18:11 <TT1a1a1> too limit the refinery to 48 squares from the edge
07:18:53 <TT1a1a1> surely it should be within 48 squares of the sea instead of the edge of the map
07:18:58 <peter1138> chris sawyer's idea
07:19:11 <peter1138> back then, mind you, there were only 256x256 maps
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07:20:49 <Mazur> Time for a change, then? I mean, Rotterdam is not for nothing a major world port, with refineries all along the river.
07:22:20 <TT1a1a1> i imagine that the 48 squares will screw over other scenarios as well, Scotland is nowhere near the edge of the map... or the oil rigs
07:22:24 <planetmaker> Mazur, newgrfs can change that easily.
07:22:27 * Mazur was setting up tanker lines to Rotterdam until _he_ found out refineries can only be built along the edges of the map.
07:22:33 <planetmaker> you could even write a newgrf which just changes that.
07:22:56 <Mazur> TT1a1a1: The_Netherlands.
07:23:33 <planetmaker> Still, I do personally think that the limit could be removed or at least the allowed range be 0...mapsize
07:24:20 <planetmaker> default setting might still remain the TTD default setting
07:28:35 <TT1a1a1> if i build an oil refinery next to a station that has oil waiting, does it process it?
07:29:36 <Harlequin> TT: It have to be delivered somewhere first before processing
07:30:22 <planetmaker> yup. Otherwise you build a station in reach of an oil well and a refinery. And auto-magically all oil is processed after you sent one train there once, picking up one litre of oil.
07:31:09 <Harlequin> Which is cheating in a way
07:31:37 <TT1a1a1> got 6.5million litres to shift
07:31:47 <planetmaker> would be. It's not the purpose of a transport game to build four stations on a 256^2 map and have covered everything without a single vehicle
07:32:35 <planetmaker> TT1a1a1, that's reasonable.
07:32:53 <planetmaker> have you never seen 30k passengers waiting? ;-)
07:33:13 <Harlequin> I've seen 30k goods waitin
07:33:36 <planetmaker> TT1a1a1, easy, if you have a big town and transport all passengers there
07:33:38 <Ammler> another limit to "fix" (station_spread) ;-)
07:33:42 <planetmaker> to an ICE station
07:34:56 <Harlequin> or to insane players ;)
07:35:34 <Harlequin> darn i wanted to finish czech translation for those czech strings and it's locked
07:35:37 <TT1a1a1> london has 142k, my local town has 137k, year 2124
07:35:54 <Harlequin> well have nothin to do now... see you later alligator all
07:36:08 <Ammler> we had 1 million pax waiting and a nice big save
07:37:37 <planetmaker> TT1a1a1, we built a map with 3 towns > 750k each :-)
07:37:55 <planetmaker> accordingly were the s-bahn and ICE terminals ;-)
07:38:19 <planetmaker> >30.000 transported per town and month
07:39:15 <planetmaker> but then the aim was: grow the towns as big as possible :-)
07:41:58 <Mazur> What is the difference between ICE and regular Inter-City.
07:44:52 <planetmaker> Mazur, it's different trains
07:45:05 <planetmaker> and different price :-P
07:45:22 <planetmaker> the ICE used to stop less. But that somehow is not really true anymore
07:50:00 <TT1a1a1> lol, too close to another industry now that ive moved it to within 48 squares
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07:50:30 <TT1a1a1> oil rigs all round the edge of the UK scenario is making this impossible
07:50:58 <TT1a1a1> is there a way to see budget reports from after 3 years ago?
07:53:19 <planetmaker> old savegames? ;-)
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07:54:18 <TT1a1a1> ah, would be handy to see how much ive spend on trying to get at this north sea oil, first 2 years was 700m
07:54:42 <TT1a1a1> how far away must industries be from each other?
08:01:34 <planetmaker> default industries? Just switch on to allow more than one per town ;-)
08:14:33 <TT1a1a1> its cool, created an island 48 squares from the edge for the oil refinery but it said it was too close to an other industry (oil rig)
08:15:36 <TT1a1a1> ive got 30 ships in a depot, some have oil, is there a way to send them all somewhere and unload cargo without going through them one by one?
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08:21:34 <xahodo> Why are tile classes 0xB through 0xF marked as reserved?
08:21:46 <xahodo> And why will they crash the game if a tile uses them?
08:22:24 <devilsadvocate> TT1a1a1, manage trains in the depot, and give them orders?
08:22:30 <peter1138> because they're not defined
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08:25:59 <xahodo> So that leftover space isn't used by anything else?
08:26:35 <peter1138> it's not "leftover space"
08:26:47 <peter1138> if you added some brand new feature, you could use them
08:27:13 <peter1138> you could for instance declare one type as a stacked tile
08:27:28 <peter1138> hmm, that's quite a nice idea ;)
08:27:31 <xahodo> That was what I was thinking of implementing.
08:27:48 <xahodo> But err... I still need to get familiar with the code of openttd...
08:27:51 <peter1138> you'd have a lot of space for an index
08:27:58 <peter1138> or perhaps other data as well
08:29:22 <xahodo> How about whether the stacked tiles need to be visited and where the surface is located (useful for the viewport).
08:32:24 <xahodo> At that point the [] operator could be overloaded check for the tileclass (and act accordingly) in order to hide the exception to all the tile accessors.
08:32:47 <xahodo> But... errr... performance impact?
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08:34:25 <Noldo> you can overload [] for the baseclass and do the polymorfism there instead of virtual functions, if that is the problem
08:35:19 <peter1138> overloading [] is a distraction
08:36:30 <xahodo> It would help with abstraction.
08:37:13 <Rubidium> you'd still need some method to encode the 'z' in the tile indices
08:37:16 <xahodo> But virtual functions should be avoided.
08:38:49 <xahodo> Tileindex is 32bits (of which only 22 are used at the moment), so it seems to me an additional nibble shouldn't be much of a problem. Or am I missing something?
08:40:00 <peter1138> why do you need an additional nibble?
08:40:20 <Rubidium> but then the real question is: what is 'z'?
08:41:02 <peter1138> hmm, is it possible to do a bulk image upload to wikimedia?
08:42:26 <xahodo> x = length, y = width, z = height.
08:44:13 <Rubidium> what is the 'z' of the lonely rail tile on the left? Currently there are three (!) 'z's depending on the slope's direction
08:45:01 <Rubidium> now the lonely tile on the right, would that have 2 'z's in your system?
08:45:21 <Noldo> the top half would be a stacked tile on top of the first?
08:46:12 <Rubidium> and now the rail+tunnel in the top, imagine the rail continues over the tunnel. Does the tunnel have the same z as the rail? Currently one side has (the other hasn't).
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08:50:33 <Rubidium> the major problem here is that you need to teach the pathfinders about 'z' so they don't get the bridge, ground and tunnels interfering; thinking it can jump from a bridge to a tunnel
08:51:02 <Rubidium> which means you need to figure out how to handle going up and down a slope
08:51:32 <Rubidium> and that probably implies way more foundation calculations
08:53:00 <Rubidium> now it's fairly simply as you can't connect wrongly leveled tiles up, only place you can is with tunnels and bridges, but those are wormholes that don't allow traffic to enter from behind which simply put fixes the whole dilemma
08:56:53 <Rubidium> although I've always liked the idea of building stuff on multiple levels, just not enough to actually code it :)
08:57:29 <peter1138> that's why i say overloading [] is pointless. loads of other stuff needs to explicitly know z, etc..
08:57:56 <peter1138> it's not that much of a trouble though. you can base z on the vehicle's existing z, for pathfinding..?
08:58:04 <peter1138> not like you need to guess
09:02:25 <blathijs> The only way to properly do this is by redesigning the model for Z. I don't think you can get away with just adding a "stacked" tiletype and add some random support here and there...
09:02:59 <xahodo> That's true... it needs a /lot/ of work.
09:03:10 <planetmaker> sounds like a goal for v2.0.0 :-)
09:03:38 <xahodo> But otherwise my oversized, way too busy stations in the middle of towns going 16 directions will remain congested forever. :)
09:03:45 <blathijs> There has been some (thorough) thought about this in the "new map array" project years back, but that never got finished
09:04:07 <planetmaker> does the repo still exist?
09:06:28 <blathijs> It's the "map" branch in svn, but it's been removed since some time
09:06:47 <blathijs> it's still present in r4000 (which was a random guess of mine)
09:07:51 <blathijs> Also, if your map storage is more flexible to store multiple levels of stuff and basically everything can go above everything, you'll also have to thoroughly rethink your UI for this, and explicitely disallow probably half of the combinations that become possible...
09:09:01 <planetmaker> visibility might become an issue. A non-trivial task
09:09:22 <xahodo> How about filtering the layers you see?
09:09:58 <xahodo> So the user can say he wishes to see everything one level above what he's editing, for example.
09:10:48 <xahodo> ctrl-mousewheel up/down could be used to switch between the layer you are editing.
09:11:21 <xahodo> However, simply draging a bridge or a tunnel could give you the behavior as it is now - maybe with some added flexibility?
09:11:29 <planetmaker> xahodo, that'd break the concept to see the surface as now
09:11:41 <planetmaker> which is usually a quite convenient thing :-)
09:11:46 <peter1138> planetmaker, how does opengfx feel about drawing rotations? ;)
09:12:02 <planetmaker> peter1138, personally I would not see a big problem in it.
09:12:08 <blathijs> xahodo: Yeah, filtering like that has been discussed in the context of the new array as well :-)
09:12:29 <planetmaker> It needs lots of sprites, but the community has quite a few sprite-creation machines ;-)
09:12:48 <planetmaker> I'm optimistic that such project could see realisation in a reasonable time
09:13:02 <planetmaker> Briges e.g. don't need that (if we talk about 90° only)
09:13:04 <blathijs> Rotations are a nice window for easter eggs :-)
09:13:35 <peter1138> planetmaker, full rotation :)
09:13:58 <planetmaker> that's a completely new concept...
09:14:43 <planetmaker> 45° might also even be possible. But that's severly more work than 90°
09:14:54 <planetmaker> of one would either go to
09:15:06 <planetmaker> a) 3D models with textures (the blender guys will love it)
09:15:25 <planetmaker> b) apply a computationally heavy stereo optics algorithm to 90° sprites
09:16:01 <planetmaker> similar to what google does with its 3D maps
09:19:59 <xahodo> errr... is rotation actually needed for this?
09:21:17 <planetmaker> you need to make sure that everything built can be seen somehow :-)
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09:23:22 <peter1138> planetmaker, eh, i meant 0/90/180/270
09:23:37 <peter1138> so you can rotate industries etc with no issues
09:23:40 <xahodo> Combining rotation and filtering of what is actually seen could be even more helpful.
09:23:47 <peter1138> of course, newgrf wouldn't work
09:23:51 <peter1138> so let's scrap that :p
09:24:11 <planetmaker> I assumed so. I'd give that project a year, maybe a bit more till it's completely done, but feasable
09:24:25 <planetmaker> IF there's strong demand for it.
09:24:57 <planetmaker> But I'd assume that Zephyris could get motivated, others, too
09:25:53 <Noldo> if the point is to see things, why aren't industries just replaced with colored tiles
09:26:37 <xahodo> Newgrf doesn't need to be scrapped. But there's defenately room for improvement.
09:27:57 <peter1138> Where's my breakfast, __ln__?
09:28:02 <xahodo> non-native Enlgish speaker here (my woover isn't either).
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09:28:32 * planetmaker also wants (another) breakfast :-(
09:28:53 <__ln__> xahodo|afk: please don't use an away-nick.
09:29:15 <__ln__> peter1138: will be served printed in three copies asap.
09:30:18 <planetmaker> peter1138, for a starter as a compatibility option one could probably assign the current (unrotated) sprite to the same tile... but that will look ugly
09:31:28 <planetmaker> it might be required to add some switch with a similar effect like the map edges: one or the other, no possibility to switch once started with newgrf which don't support it and newgrf_developer_tools = off
09:32:12 <peter1138> there's also the issue of how to specify the sprites
09:32:35 <planetmaker> additional sprite set
09:32:43 <peter1138> vehicles already have rotations, for example
09:33:22 <Pikka> just make the rotation visible to grf in a variable
09:34:00 <peter1138> just put everything in an ini file
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09:35:22 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19674 /trunk/src/ (base_media_base.h base_media_func.h gfxinit.cpp music.cpp): -Fix [FS#3774]: crash when the music/graphics metadata files were unreadable
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10:07:21 <xahodo> Well, no need to rush things. I'm still at square 1 and when I'm at square 3 (learned the pathfinder to deal with the new map array) I'll start to make some noise again.
10:30:37 <planetmaker> xahodo: it might be worthwhile to write the concept down somewhat :-)
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11:52:04 <Hirundo> There are no 'boddies' here
11:53:08 <Eddi|zuHause> ln is here, but not nl...
11:53:45 <planetmaker> I also hope here are no bodies...
11:53:45 <Rubidium> no, he needs Sacro... he pretends he speaks Dutch
11:54:12 <planetmaker> transfering bodybags always requires too much of a sceremony.
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11:57:24 <planetmaker> luckily it cannot be important, given the discrepancy between own responsivity and asked-for responsivity ;-)
11:57:31 <ice-flame> i have a problem with my AL
11:57:47 <ice-flame> I can't have concuration from pc players
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11:58:07 <ice-flame> mayby some one could help me with this?
11:58:30 <planetmaker> did you download a proper AI and set the number of competitors to something not 0?
11:58:52 <ice-flame> well the problem is i dont find any in the online download system...
11:59:00 <ice-flame> and yes i tried with more than 0
11:59:07 <planetmaker> use the online content from the main menu. There are plenty
11:59:16 <ice-flame> could you give me any name?
11:59:23 <ice-flame> so it is easier to search for one?
11:59:26 <planetmaker> NoCAB, AdmiralAI ChoCho
12:00:25 <planetmaker> maybe it's ChooChoo. Dunno :-)
12:00:38 <planetmaker> The newgrf selection is the wrong place to search for, btw.
12:01:12 <planetmaker> actually... they can probably be downloaded from the AI configuration sub-menu, too
12:01:29 <ice-flame> i downloaded some;)
12:01:54 <planetmaker> you activate them in the AI config. Best done also from the main menu
12:02:16 <planetmaker> (but that only works for new games in that way)
12:09:43 <OwenS> forcing value to bool 'true' or 'false' (performance warning) <-- I hate MSVC's stupid warnings
12:12:12 <FauxFaux> Assuming you're using types reasonably and not interacting with horrible legacy code, it probably means you're calculating something then disgarding the result, doesn't it?
12:13:14 <OwenS> No, it means I'm taking an int and storing it in a bool
12:13:52 <FauxFaux> int x = numberOfSevensInFourBillionDigitisOfPi(); bool b = x; if (b) { ...
12:15:20 <planetmaker> doesn't sound sane ;-)
12:32:19 <Ammler> Rubidium: I would change the "call for translators" on the languages <1000 strings needed :-)
12:33:07 <Ammler> those on the frontpage are worth to remove
12:35:58 <Ammler> but a language with 200 missing strings could be "rescued"
12:37:19 <Ammler> oh, basically "unfinished" should be ignored....
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12:53:20 * peter1138 wonders if there'll be anything smaller than micro-SD
12:53:31 <peter1138> just so i can use another adapter...
12:53:42 <peter1138> SD -> mini-SD -> micro-SD is boring
12:53:50 <glx> micro-SD is already too small
12:53:55 <ccfreak2k> But uh, good luck finding it if you drop it.
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13:04:39 <Rubidium> Ammler: but those 1000+ missing string languages need translators too
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13:11:20 <planetmaker> Rubidium, random idea: let a script decide randomly from a list of languages which need translation ;-)
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13:12:54 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that would be a derivative of the script that randomly chooses a screenshot :p
13:14:50 <Belugas> hello mister planetmaker :)
13:17:53 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, we just do that regularly ;-)
13:20:37 <Rubidium> tralalalalalalalimnotwellversedindjangolalalalalalasoasktruebrainlalalalalalawhodoesnothavetimeforiteitherlalalalalalalala
13:27:51 <Eddi|zuHause> isn't "Django" some italowestern?
13:38:31 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: funny enough, my highlight wasn't triggered :p
13:38:44 <TrueBrain> I have 2 hours for you today, so I suggest to speak fast :p
13:39:22 <Rubidium> implement stats, fix/finish bananas, fix/finish WT3.1
13:39:30 <Rubidium> that should fill those two hours
13:39:57 <Eddi|zuHause> certainly won't take more than that :p
13:40:45 <TrueBrain> phpmyadmin, remove 'lock' from language, remove 'busy' from section, root@secure, openttd_live, translation/scripts/language-reload.py trunk Czech, wait ....
13:40:50 <TrueBrain> just for your reference :p
13:41:32 <Rubidium> doesn't fix underlying issue :)
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14:09:10 <Eddi|zuHause> nbc-irs.net sounds somewhat wrong :p
14:09:26 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19675 /extra/website/ (12 files in 4 dirs): [Website] -Add: a list of CVE records
14:11:09 <Mazur> Eddi|zuHause: I don;t know, perhaps they have a whole department for tax-dodging purposes.
14:11:55 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, you mean like a subbranch of cnbc :p
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14:42:41 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19676 /extra/website/ (3 files in 3 dirs): [Website] -Fix: 404s and the header didn't always work as it should
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15:44:15 <OwenS> OK, whos idea was the adding then removing DEF_CMD? grr
15:44:44 <OwenS> (Or am I looking at this the wrong way?)
15:45:09 <OwenS> Repo seems out of date...
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15:48:29 <Eddi|zuHause> you are speaking in riddles
15:48:48 <OwenS> My local repository had gotten out of sync with my master repository unbeknownst to me
15:51:11 <OwenS> Ooh, new signal cycle handing... how annoying :P
15:52:08 <OwenS> (With progsigs it defies all handling except "Table!")
15:55:51 <OwenS> Oh, just moving from GB to Extract :)
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16:19:12 <Guest525> Does anyone know what has changed in settings.cpp since 0.7.5?
16:20:07 <OwenS> Guest525: probably lots
16:20:16 <OwenS> But, yes, a good diff tool will know for sure
16:23:32 <Rubidium> some 700-1000 lines?
16:23:59 <planetmaker> oh. in one file :-)
16:25:19 <Rubidium> oh, you though 0.7.5->1.0.0 was 700-1000 lines?
16:26:09 <Rubidium> the settings diff as almost as big as settings.cpp itself, it's only about 5-10% smaller
16:26:36 <Guest525> There were lots of lines that I think were for loading settings data from the file
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16:27:15 <Guest525> I'm trying to add a new variable
16:27:47 <OwenS> Guest525: Why are you looking at the 0.7.5 code?
16:28:00 <Rubidium> planetmaker: 0.7.5-1.0.0 diff is only 558155 lines (193113 lines removed, 237376 lines added)
16:28:21 <Guest525> I made a change to the 0.7.5 code, and I would like to apply the change to the 1.0.0 code
16:28:49 <Rubidium> oh, did that table move to src/table/settings.h that recently?
16:28:51 <planetmaker> Guest525: easier to rewrite it.
16:28:52 <OwenS> Guest525: tip: Don't modify stable versions
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17:32:16 <atikabubu> Is this channel crowded or what? :P
17:33:05 <planetmaker> it's empty. No one here. Nothing to see or hear
17:33:08 <TrueBrain> expect some httpd failures on openttd.org for the next 30 minutes or so
17:34:33 <atikabubu> Nice bit of "nothing" ;)
17:35:38 <atikabubu> I was bored to hell someday and made an icon from the files in the /media folder...
17:36:26 * planetmaker hasn't looked at the media folder for... eons.
17:38:58 <planetmaker> hm... what CFLAG do I need in order to make ccache a default?
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17:39:29 <fonsinchen> you can configure with --with-ccache
17:39:37 <fonsinchen> (not --enable-ccache)
17:39:39 <planetmaker> Rubidium: that's for configure. It works also in my globa CFLAGS?
17:40:00 <SmatZ> maybe CC=ccache will do
17:40:01 <fonsinchen> ccache is a frontend to g++, g++ doesn't know about it
17:40:37 <planetmaker> well, I usually forget about it when I run ./configure. So I'd like a way to make it a default ;-)
17:42:40 <atikabubu> just simple work with a stapler and tape :D
17:44:04 <planetmaker> can you post it such that I don't have to download something but can view it in the browser?
17:44:32 <atikabubu> do browsers support *.ico files?
17:45:34 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19677 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
17:45:34 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:34 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: portuguese - 6 changes by JayCity
17:45:34 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: romanian - 1 changes by tonny
17:45:34 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: serbian - 2 changes by etran
17:45:35 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: slovenian - 9 changes by Necrolyte
17:45:35 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
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17:48:31 <Lakie> Is bananas.openttd.org down?
17:48:56 <atikabubu> not for me it isn't...
17:49:35 * Lakie puts it down to a small dns error
17:50:08 <TrueBrain> [19:33] <TrueBrain> expect some httpd failures on openttd.org for the next 30 minutes or so
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17:53:34 <amalloy> i can't find 2cc trains on bananas...what name do i have to look for to download it?
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17:56:51 <amalloy> the only 2cc thing i see is the chimaera addon
17:57:14 <Rubidium> might you be using, say 0.7.5?
17:58:15 <amalloy> i already have 2cc myself; downloaded it by luck. but i'm trying to get a friend to install it, and neither of us can find it
17:58:36 <Turgid> I have a problem with some trains ignoring their service interval, they just keep going until I manually tell them to service. I've had this problem since 0.7.5 so it might be something I'm doing...any ideas?
17:59:07 <Rubidium> amalloy: looks like 2cc trainset "needs" a nightly
17:59:13 <planetmaker> there's the small chance that with the upload o the newest testing version of 2cctrainset the requirements also for the "stable" version of 2cctrainset were increased to >1.0.0
17:59:29 <planetmaker> if that's the case, that's bad
17:59:41 <planetmaker> the 2nd newest should be available for stable
17:59:43 <atikabubu> yah, i have tha almost lates nightly and have it in bananas
17:59:47 <planetmaker> only the newest for nightlies
18:00:02 <Rubidium> planetmaker: that's a long standing bug of bananas
18:00:08 <atikabubu> <bloody T button :F>
18:00:28 <planetmaker> Rubidium: ? You mean that different versions of OpenTTD for different versions of NewGRFs don't work?
18:01:09 * planetmaker logs into bananas
18:01:12 <Rubidium> yes-ish; the backend should support it (IIRC), but the webinterface disables the previous version
18:01:41 <glx> old version can be retrieved when loading savegames
18:02:13 <planetmaker> glx: yes. But 2cctrainset would like to supply stable version for stable openttd versions and nightly version to nightly openttd versions
18:02:33 <planetmaker> at least if DJN listened to me ;-)
18:02:34 <glx> only latest version is available
18:03:19 <planetmaker> Rubidium: could you then lower the requirement for 2cctrainset, please?
18:03:49 <glx> not if latest 2cc is not compatible with stable
18:03:51 <planetmaker> better nightly than none
18:05:22 <planetmaker> the idea was just to use nightly players as test players and keep the stable for the others
18:05:24 <Rubidium> I've manually "published" the 1.0.1 version again; now you'll see two in trunk
18:05:34 <planetmaker> Thanks, Rubidium :-)
18:05:39 <Socket_7> Is there a cargodist patch against 1.0.0 for Ubuntu?
18:05:41 <Rubidium> which is kinda a bug in the content server I think
18:05:56 <planetmaker> (not the bug, but two versions)
18:05:57 <Rubidium> Socket_7: why care about 1.0.0? It's not compatible at all with 1.0.0
18:06:30 <Socket_7> Rubidium: Oh, only because I just installed 1.0.0 under Lucid 10.04
18:06:40 <planetmaker> Socket_7: yes, it's also no add-on
18:06:46 <planetmaker> it's a completely separate thing
18:07:01 <planetmaker> and you can easily install two versions in parallel
18:07:20 <Socket_7> oh, sorry, I just got hooked on openttd this past weekend, so not very familiar
18:08:10 <Socket_7> Is there a PPA for the cargodist?
18:08:13 <planetmaker> tab completion fail -.-
18:09:27 <Turgid> So, any idea why some trains ignore their maintenance interval?
18:09:31 <Rubidium> some sort of custom user ubuntu packages
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18:09:52 <Socket_7> planetmaker: It's a Ubuntu repository for package installs
18:09:53 <Rubidium> Turgid: breakdowns disabled and "no service if breakdowns" enabled?
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18:11:07 <Turgid> Turgid, no breakdowns are definitely enabled, and that option is turned off anyway. I can tell because eventually these trains get down to 0% reliability and breakdown every few squares. :p
18:11:47 <Rubidium> path signals and long signal distances or so?
18:12:07 <Rubidium> the vehicles will only check every now and then whether they need to service
18:12:30 <Socket_7> Ah, very cool, thanks Ammler
18:12:52 <Rubidium> at that moment it tries to find a depot within 20 tiles worth of pathfinder penalties (corners etc have a cost of like 3 tiles)
18:13:09 <Rubidium> and if a path past a depot is already reserved it won't deviate from that anymore
18:13:27 <Turgid> Rubidium, well the longest distance between path signals is 8 tiles or so, I suppose I could try lessening that.
18:13:41 <Turgid> Ah, I'll try making more convenient depots then. Thanks.
18:14:06 <Rubidium> path signals are not needed on straight pieces of track
18:14:06 <OwenS> I should work on my planned ship pathfinder sometime soon... Sometime I'm less busy
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18:15:49 <Turgid> Huh, that seemed to fix it. That makes my game a lot more enjoyable. :)
18:18:19 <OwenS> (Basic idea: build a Delaunay Triangulation of all stations & buoys, precalculate and cache routes between vertices (<- I'm not sure how to handle invalidate these yet), then use either Dijkstras Algorithm to pick the route along the graph
18:18:58 <Turgid> Rubidium, should I use regular signals instead?
18:19:06 <OwenS> atikabubu: look up on Wikipedia :p
18:19:52 <Rubidium> Turgid: regular signals work usually better, except when in junctions
18:20:01 <SpComb> Turgid: turning off breakdowns makes the game much more enjoyable
18:20:27 <fonsinchen> You'll still want to service them now and then in order to make autoreplace work
18:20:43 <Turgid> SpComb, eh, I like the realism and the challenge.
18:20:55 <OwenS> Turgid: in real life, trains do not break down every day
18:20:57 <SpComb> the breakdowns in TTD are realistic? :)
18:20:58 <fonsinchen> strange sense of realism
18:21:58 <Turgid> Then again they don't run for months without getting checked up on.
18:22:07 <atikabubu> OwenS: Now i know why i chose philology :E
18:29:44 <andythenorth> OwenS: if you could also just make 'brown water' class craft hug the coast, and 'blue water' vessels take the straight line, that would also be great ;)
18:30:03 <OwenS> andythenorth: thats somewhat... outside the remit of a pathfinder
18:30:35 <andythenorth> I'll just keep dibbling the speeds for game balance then
18:30:35 <OwenS> I would need a "brown water" classification first :p
18:31:00 <OwenS> And then a way of saying if a tile is brown water :p
18:32:34 <andythenorth> it could be defined (in a proxy way) by distance from coast / size of water body
18:32:42 <OwenS> andythenorth: I know that. What I mean is I need a way of knowing a ship is brown water, and also for tiles to be classified as such
18:34:40 <Lakie> I am right in thinking most compatiblity with platforms is mostly down to wrapers or is it more complex than that (for OpenTTD).
18:35:03 <andythenorth> well TTDP respects the canal speed / ocean speed prop. Maybe we could hack on that
18:35:19 <andythenorth> hacks are always a lovely way to incur technical debt :P
18:37:34 <Rubidium> Lakie: platforms as in Linux, Windows and such?
18:37:48 <Rubidium> if so, take a look in src/os/
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18:38:41 <Rubidium> which is where most gets handled, besides some font stuff in fontcache.cpp, threads, video, music, sound in those directories
18:39:11 <Rubidium> but then, video, music and sound drivers are sometimes generic for all platforms (SDL) and sometimes very platform specific
18:39:57 <Lakie> So generally the core game is the same with the audio/video/input being handled platform dependantly?
18:41:28 <Rubidium> yes, totally abstracted away
18:42:58 <Rubidium> what are you planning?
18:43:25 <Lakie> Not planning anything, putting it into a report about multiplatform apps and services.
18:43:40 * Lakie thinks it fits in there nicely but could be mistaken.
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18:46:26 <andythenorth> it's nice that they are easy to route (although bouys are annoying)
18:46:33 <andythenorth> but maybe they are too easy
18:46:37 <andythenorth> should they be more evil?
18:46:46 <Rubidium> Lakie: fun fact; OpenTTD runs on DOS provided the videocard is supported by Allegro (which includes dosbox)
18:47:54 <OwenS> andythenorth: the problem with ships is the bloody goto buoy orders
18:48:08 * andythenorth thinks about: rocks, whirlpools, reefs, and ships that get scared about deep water
18:48:28 <OwenS> andythenorth: one of the design ideas of SPF is that ships automatically follow buoys :)
18:51:00 <andythenorth> OwenS: if the orders at least reverse-filled the bouys that would be handy. But that's lipstick on a pig :)
18:51:15 <andythenorth> is there space in the map array for 'evil water tiles'?
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18:53:21 <planetmaker> more interesting might be coast and high seas :-)
18:53:30 <planetmaker> (if that isn't even implemented...)
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18:55:16 <Phurl> i would like to know if it would be possible to add in an import of openstreetmap for simulation of a real ciry
18:56:04 <frosch123> you might have a chance with manhattan
18:56:22 * andythenorth wonders what other evil sea features might be fun?
18:56:39 <planetmaker> andythenorth: "bermuda triangle"
18:56:45 <planetmaker> 50% chance that ship sinks
18:57:16 <frosch123> how about privateers entering opponents ships?
18:57:37 <andythenorth> I guess we're just reinventing disasters here though
18:57:40 <planetmaker> hostile take-over
18:57:52 <andythenorth> disasters are the first thing I turn off :P
18:57:53 <planetmaker> and then you can ask for money in order to return the ship
18:57:57 <planetmaker> it's realistic even!
18:59:02 <andythenorth> I could add 'naval patrol' to FISH :P
18:59:20 <andythenorth> I did think rocks and reefs might actually add both gameplay and eye candy
18:59:21 <planetmaker> capacity: 5 people
18:59:39 <planetmaker> andythenorth: *that* might be interesting :-)
19:00:08 <planetmaker> does water have random numbers? Then different representation of those are easily possible
19:00:23 <andythenorth> to make it worthwhile, ships wouldn't be able to route over those tiles
19:00:34 <andythenorth> much like they can't route through a water-based industry
19:01:00 * andythenorth thinks up a horrible abuse of an industry newgrf to implement 'rocks' as a concept
19:01:06 <planetmaker> bulldozing: 100*normal water bulldoze cost
19:01:18 <planetmaker> teehehe @ andythenorth
19:01:23 <frosch123> oh, and streetcarai has to learn to use gondolas
19:01:41 <andythenorth> planetmaker: bulldozing cost sounds about right
19:01:59 <andythenorth> is this a NewObjects type thing, or would it be better in core game?
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19:03:58 <planetmaker> difficult, I think
19:04:18 <planetmaker> if "new objects" can be restricted to not be build or so... yes
19:04:35 <planetmaker> though it'd be nice to have the map generator have access to those kind of things
19:04:53 <planetmaker> same would actually also be true with road signs and so on.
19:05:02 <planetmaker> like light houses and transmitters
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19:09:47 <andythenorth> I think the map generator would need access to things like those
19:10:10 <andythenorth> not so much the road signs etc - but the 'irritatingly immovable or expensive to remove objects'
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19:16:24 <planetmaker> andythenorth: true, that's more important to know. But having sign-posted roads by default would also certainly add to the flair of the game, if done so by default
19:16:31 <planetmaker> But then more important: Rivers!
19:17:15 <andythenorth> but mostly, Rivers!
19:17:36 <planetmaker> at best: lively rivers :-)
19:18:05 <andythenorth> a dam is actually pretty easy
19:18:34 <planetmaker> yes. Just rise the corner of the tile ;-)
19:19:05 * andythenorth face palm at BROS set :P
19:20:28 <peter1138> WHEN WILL I WILL I BE FAMOUS
19:20:40 <Socket_7> Has anyone played the Pacific NW:Canada/USA Scenario? Even though I have downloaded the ECS Wood vector GRF, I am still getting a "Missing GRF file(s) have been disabled" error when I start it.
19:22:05 <TrueBrain> We removed lighttpd from the chain of httpds when visiting www.openttd.org. Please let me know any issues that might arrised from this change
19:22:20 <peter1138> thought you did that long ago :p
19:23:12 <peter1138> and here's me, using lighttpd with no issues ;)
19:23:17 <peter1138> slightly ligher load
19:23:23 <TrueBrain> then again, you hand't to survive a slashdot :p
19:24:45 <andythenorth> planetmaker: and lower land to create the lake?
19:25:15 <planetmaker> andythenorth: automatic filling with water wouldn't be too nice
19:25:37 <Rubidium> peter1138: but then you're not having mod-dav-svn behind lighty
19:25:52 <planetmaker> andythenorth: not so much abuse but it'd be incompatible with current maps
19:26:09 <planetmaker> where flooding only starts from sea. That should IMHO better be kept
19:26:18 <planetmaker> or savegames would break horribly
19:26:21 <peter1138> hmm, merely 3.7mbps 95th%ile
19:26:31 <planetmaker> also tunnels at normal land level would get "interesting"
19:26:41 <peter1138> Rubidium, i have lighttpd -> apache -> dav_svn, so...
19:27:05 <TrueBrain> we now have nginx -> apache -> dav_svn
19:27:32 <Noldo> i never undertood why rivers are on tiles and not on the edges of tiles
19:27:46 <Rubidium> peter1138: oh, may I do a checkout of your repository?
19:28:14 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: dont make his lighttpd crash :(
19:28:17 <Rubidium> (I really hope the whole repository is smaller than the amount of memory you've got, otherwise it's going to OOM)
19:28:42 <peter1138> yeah, it's 3.6MB :p
19:29:05 <Rubidium> oh, then it'll leak not that much to be noticable :(
19:29:36 <peter1138> bah, lighttpd's only 2.9MB resident
19:29:45 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: yeah, then he'll have a lot of tags quickly
19:29:49 <peter1138> don't think i need to worry :)
19:29:56 <TrueBrain> nginx was 6 MiB even at 51 hits per second :p
19:30:03 <peter1138> it's readonly, hehe
19:30:07 <peter1138> i use ssh for committing
19:30:11 <TrueBrain> then again, lighttpd also survived such hammering
19:30:22 <TrueBrain> just don't proxy via lighttpd :)
19:30:46 <peter1138> depends what it is, but yes
19:31:08 <peter1138> certainly can't proxy http streaming ;)
19:31:41 <peter1138> but, i only had lighttpd because i didn't need apache
19:31:45 <peter1138> then i put apache on later
19:31:51 <peter1138> so i might just dump lighttpd
19:32:07 <SpComb> lighttpd's proxying buffers in memory :(
19:32:42 * peter1138 wonders if kino's DV code is... complicated
19:33:35 <peter1138> gstreamer's dv1394src doesn't appear to work very well :s
19:40:27 <TrueBrain> switched media.openttd.org to nginx only too
19:40:40 <TrueBrain> as that takes care of 50% of our http hits, it should ease up lighttpd a bit :p
19:47:38 <andythenorth> we use Varnish (with ESI) and HA Proxy on high traffic sites. Not sure if it's applicable here though
19:48:05 <TrueBrain> I am currently very happy with the performance our setup gives
19:48:17 <andythenorth> seems...snappy :)
19:48:18 <TrueBrain> the only issue we had was that django was dropped by the OOM .. something that wont' happen again :)
19:49:44 <TrueBrain> we already have twice the amount of hits then the busiest month we had before, and everything still runs :p
19:50:37 <TrueBrain> euh, I read that wrong: we are already passed the former #1 month :p
19:51:06 <TrueBrain> in a year we have 5M 'visitors' and 225M page hits :p
19:51:18 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19678 /trunk/src/network/ (core/tcp_game.h network_server.cpp): -Fix (r19607): client status was shown incorrect in the console
19:51:22 <TrueBrain> 5TB of data over our main server in the last 12 months :) Hehe :)
19:52:09 <Rubidium> ~700GiB so far this month :)
19:52:12 <TrueBrain> we grown from 350k 'visitors' a month to 500k
19:53:08 <TrueBrain> but okay :) Please let me know if there are any httpd issues :)
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19:53:51 <TrueBrain> SmatZ: what about it?
19:53:56 <SmatZ> TrueBrain: it looks dead
19:54:01 <TrueBrain> your name is not enough on that page?
19:54:17 <TrueBrain> even Rubidium's commit is there
19:55:42 <SmatZ> sorry for distracting you, Mr. Stout
19:55:47 <TrueBrain> not a single problem :)
20:22:27 * Rubidium just hopes it doesn't make such a mess as Laki did
20:35:58 <Peping> the one who helps me to finish this design document, by thinking about various battle units to be used in the game gets the exclusive access to the game Whizz! from Zeyo Game with whom I happen to work. Also you'll get hellalot of credits on the website once the project is done.. https://abicollab.net/documents/download/25991/latest/txt
20:39:04 <frosch123> does it contain privateers?
20:39:05 <Peping> It's just a way how to get people involved in a project I want to finish
20:39:30 <SmatZ> openttd is a peaceful game
20:39:48 <Peping> I don't think so.. It's supposed to be more like warfare from this era
20:40:15 <Peping> SmatZ: which sometimes leads it up to the border of boringness..
20:40:31 <__ln__> SmatZ: it's not, every passenger dies in every accident
20:41:12 <KenjiE20> if you think playing TTD is boring, you're playing the wrong game
20:41:31 <Peping> who's against what I'm trying to make, raise your hand using an emote (/me is against). if there's more than 6 of you, I'll stop.
20:41:32 <__ln__> Belugas: true, not exactly, but still -- plenty of people die.
20:41:42 <Rubidium> "Zeyo game" doesn't even exist according to Google
20:42:14 <Peping> Rubidium: it's a recently founded(this year) studio..
20:42:30 <SmatZ> Peping: you can create any software base on OpenTTD, as long as you meet licence requirements
20:43:29 <Peping> I know, but just in case anybody thinks it's a bad idea to have a warfare server of OpenTTD I give you the opportunity to stop me from doing what you think is bad :)
20:43:45 <Belugas> Peping, sorry, got aquick read to your document. it is far from openttd's type of game. I could never sign on such a project
20:44:11 <Belugas> so... obviously, VERY VERY VERY BAD project
20:44:30 <Rubidium> the objectives page says it is
20:44:31 <Belugas> but heyu... it's jut MY opinion
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20:46:59 <Peping> i guess it was not nessesary.. :D
20:47:22 <frosch123> what is the releation of rpg to a 6-sided dice?
20:47:42 <frosch123> i would understand 12, 20, 10, 100, ... but 6?
20:48:13 <Peping> Ask our team leder.. :D
20:48:15 <Terkhen> they are easier to find (most table games use them d6)
20:48:21 * Belugas remembers a 4 sided dice...
20:48:53 <Belugas> dunjeon and dragons... so many souvenirs...
20:49:01 * fjb has seen a 100 sided dice.
20:49:20 <frosch123> fjb: one or two dice?
20:49:51 <fjb> Not that big. But not that easy to read.
20:50:25 <frosch123> though i do not understand how you can tell the number from it
20:50:38 <Terkhen> I saw a 100 sided dice that came along with a piece of cloth to avoid damaging the table with it
20:51:38 <fjb> frosch123: You read the number on top.
20:52:58 <Peping> k guys.. Seems like I'm not going to start a warfare in openttd then.. I'll have a talk about it in OpenTTD with some players though.. I'm leaving for bed. I'm having a long journey tomorrow
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20:55:59 * Belugas cannot understand this addiction with warfare
20:56:59 <Belugas> do i want to put train stations in ... say... Spider Solitaire?
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21:01:38 <Eddi|zuHause> can't have enough train stations in any game!
21:01:57 <Terkhen> I can't understand selecting something TTD-like as a engine for a wargame... couldn't be less suited to it
21:02:18 <Terkhen> I want to destroy stuff... let's use as starting point a game that is about building stuff!
21:02:44 <Eddi|zuHause> they put warfare into sim city, it can't be that difficult :p
21:02:57 <Terkhen> really? I don't remember that :/
21:03:11 <Eddi|zuHause> in sim city 4 you can make "missions"
21:03:23 <Eddi|zuHause> like driving a police car to get car thieves
21:03:35 <Eddi|zuHause> or drive the thief car and escape from the police
21:03:49 <Terkhen> can you get to 5-6 stars too?
21:03:52 * andythenorth has some nice hovercraft renders to paint pixels on
21:03:56 <Eddi|zuHause> and you can also play a military jet, military helicopter etc.
21:04:27 * Terkhen never played any sim after SimCity 2000
21:04:30 * andythenorth has former military hovercraft
21:04:36 <andythenorth> now carrying freight
21:04:44 <fjb> A christian friend of mine misses a war option in TTD too. He tends do destroy other players work in any game when he thinks that he will not win.
21:04:54 <andythenorth> seeing as fast ships are much in demand :P
21:05:18 <Eddi|zuHause> with the helicopter you have missions like "destroy the evil scientist's laboratory"
21:05:46 <Rubidium> fjb: that's quite expectable, after all Christians are historically one of the most war-liking religons
21:05:49 <Eddi|zuHause> of course you can't aim properly, so you destroy a whole block in the process
21:05:51 <Terkhen> andythenorth: cool, what speed / capacity will they have?
21:06:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i know a railroad game with war elements: transarctica!
21:06:49 <Belugas> speaking of war... Avatar is coming to the stooooooooooooooores!
21:07:03 <andythenorth> speed, I'm not sure.
21:07:12 <Rubidium> pocahontas meets the smurfs?
21:07:33 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: I loved that game, I should try to play it again now that I my english is better
21:07:37 <andythenorth> RL top speed is about 60 mph, 'cruising speed' is about 46mph
21:07:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Belugas: so when do you get your 3D home-cinema? ;)
21:08:09 <Belugas> not for a fucking while...
21:08:20 <Belugas> and not on blue ray either
21:08:34 <Belugas> it's awesome already as it is!
21:08:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: rather use the cruising speed, not the theoretical max speed
21:08:47 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I'm missing something like that to deliver ES to oil platforms :)
21:09:24 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I am wondering about either (a) slower when loaded, faster when unloaded (realistic)
21:09:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Belugas: i got headache from the 3D cinema...
21:09:36 <andythenorth> or (b) refit for 'overload' - but slower (also realistic)
21:10:02 <andythenorth> I can implement both easily. But is it good gameplay :P
21:10:09 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: kinda like regearing for speed vs. power?
21:10:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't use ships very often...
21:10:41 <Eddi|zuHause> both seem to make some sense...
21:11:28 <Terkhen> I prefer (b), you can't easily decide to not overload with (a)
21:12:01 <andythenorth> Terkhen: noted :)
21:12:19 <andythenorth> so lots of painting to do :P
21:14:09 <Belugas> too bad, Eddi|zuHause. not my case.
21:14:20 <Belugas> and now.. it's time to... HEAD HOME!!!
21:14:28 <Belugas> and don't play war...
21:14:37 <Belugas> make love if you wish/can
21:16:43 <planetmaker> enjoy, Belugas :-)
21:16:45 <Eddi|zuHause> tokai: that image is huuuuge...
21:19:37 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I'm going to include a rig supply vessel in FISH...they are pretty fast by the standards of freight ships, maybe 40 knot
21:22:00 <tokai> Eddi|zuHause: isn't that a good thing? So you can see all details in full glory. :)
21:26:35 <Eddi|zuHause> tokai: typical screenshot, huge junctions but hardly any trains :p
21:34:13 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I've also just found specs (but no pictures) for a 100 knot rig supply hydrofoil
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22:39:16 <Elmzran> I have a question, about Servers.
22:39:26 <Elmzran> Anyone here willing to help?
22:42:18 <Turgid> I probably can't help but someone may once they see your question!
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continue to next day ⏵
