IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-04-12
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00:09:51 <SmatZ> De_Ghosty: do you have recent trunk?
00:10:25 <SmatZ> oh you are not talking about OTTD :)
00:18:27 <lennard> pfft, I distinctly remember it being three hours before now, when I last looked at the time half an hours ago
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01:09:49 <XeryusTC> why is gradual_loading not a network save setting anymore?
01:10:06 <XeryusTC> i've never had problems with changing it during a network game before
01:21:41 <Eddi|zuHause> @openttd commit 19066
01:21:41 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Commit by yexo :: r19066 trunk/src/table/settings.h (2010-02-09 16:22:13 UTC)
01:21:42 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: -Fix: settings that are part of the "ttdpatch flags" can cause desyncs if they're changed in network games
01:22:18 <Eddi|zuHause> looks to me like newgrfs can read the setting
01:28:12 <XeryusTC> hmm, but every client would update it at the same time, wouldn't they?
01:29:11 <Mazur> For the highest throughput on extremely busy stations, what is in the end the best signalling method, path or pre?
01:30:16 <PeterT> Eddi|zuHause: Did you really memorize the openttd commits, or did you search online first?
01:31:13 <Eddi|zuHause> XeryusTC: those details are probably better asked to the author of the commit
01:31:14 <mrruben5> mazur: split up the loading bays in pairs of 4, after that add PBS
01:31:36 <PeterT> Eddi|zuHause: yes to which question?
01:31:51 <Eddi|zuHause> to the question you asked.
01:32:30 <PeterT> Did you really memorize the openttd commits?
01:32:36 <PeterT> Did you search online first?
01:36:50 <Eddi|zuHause> no, you did not.
01:36:52 <Mazur> I ask, because I'm building a replacement station for a going to be extremely busy station, that is both an and of the line and a station along the way, a chimera station, as I call it, and I wish for all the traffic to use all the platforms, but give higher priority on platforms on the "own" side of incoming traffic.
01:37:04 <Eddi|zuHause> there was only one question mark, hence you only asked one question
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01:39:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Mazur: for the low to medium stations you should use path signals, to the high throughput ones you have bigger problems than signals...
01:43:29 <Mazur> Which is why I wish to grasp the signal part so finely, early on.
01:44:30 <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: svn blame src/table/settings.h | grep gradual | awk '{ system( "svn log -r " $1 ) }'
01:44:58 <PeterT> You know your way around bash tools
01:45:16 <Eddi|zuHause> ... if you think THAT is impressive...
01:48:00 <Mazur> Here's the new project: http:/53551A99.cable.casema.nl/pics/NewStation.png
01:51:47 <Eddi|zuHause> your url is malformatted
01:58:29 <Eddi|zuHause> looks very boring...
02:00:20 <Mazur> Traffic wishing to pass the station by iis going through a tunnel down the middle, so that area is free for But if it's path signals, that handle the highest loads the best, I'll sstick to that, and I know how to do it, I think, it's jjus I saw someone experienced some time agoi claining that sometimes path signals are not tha way to go, or rather, that an exclusive PBS stance is not his.
02:01:17 <Mazur> It is, it's all kids sruff, I'm still a noob.
02:03:36 <Mazur> But when younger and wiser men are available, I'm not above asking for advice. :-D
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02:32:11 <amalloy> so has anyone else noticed that the FIRS refinery produces half as much output as it should?
02:33:35 <amalloy> or wait, for multi-output industries, maybe i don't understand how the output comes
02:34:11 <amalloy> if the refinery says it will produce 6t for each 8t in, does that mean 6t each of chemicals and fuel, or 3t each?
02:37:38 <amalloy> (if the latter, i humbly submit that that is not enough. it has taken me over a year to fill up a single train's worth of fuel oil)
02:52:39 <devilsadvocate> amalloy, oil is expensive!
02:52:47 <devilsadvocate> fossil fuels and the such
02:57:40 <Eddi|zuHause> amalloy: i believe andythenorth wondered about that earlier
03:04:50 * fjb wonders how you would get 12t (6t chemicals + 6t fuel) from 8t oil.
03:09:02 <SirSquidness> or misc other chemicals
03:09:07 <devilsadvocate> the additives are oil based too
03:09:20 <SirSquidness> depends on the chemical being produced
03:09:40 <devilsadvocate> oil and water are immiscble :\
03:09:51 * SirSquidness goes back to idling
03:10:01 <Eddi|zuHause> you realize that things get heavier when they burn
03:10:54 <fjb> But not when refining them.
03:10:56 <devilsadvocate> the total mass increases
03:11:21 <devilsadvocate> unless the released gasses are reabsorbed, they wont
03:13:53 <Eddi|zuHause> when you break long carbon chains, you have to add hydrogen at these places... doesn't matter that much, but it's slightly heavier afterwards
03:15:00 <NoobCp> There wasn't a limit to how much goods, mail and passangers an area of city accepts right?
03:15:29 <fjb> But you get many other stuff when refining oil. So I guess 3t chemicals + 3t fuel =6t output from 8t oil input is correct.
03:16:57 <Eddi|zuHause> oil is not only transformed into fuel. also stuff like plastics or asphalt
03:17:31 <fjb> That does not contradict what I wrote.
03:18:07 <Eddi|zuHause> it wasn't supposed to...
03:19:12 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, the PBI refineries start out with 50% fuel and 50% plastics, but they can focus on one if the other isn't transported
03:19:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know what firs is supposed to do
03:19:48 <amalloy> afaict FIRS just throws away anything you're not transporting
03:37:56 <terinjokes> i forgot I was in the openttd channel...
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05:55:37 <amalloy> someone suggested i try PBI instead of FIRS, but i can't seem to find it in the online content section. i can download the grf manually, but i can't find info on how to install them
05:56:22 <amalloy> anyone have info about either way to do it?
05:58:48 <amalloy> ah, never mind. apparently i had to search the wiki for newgrf, not grf
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09:06:14 <Asheron> greetings salutations and all that other rot
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09:10:12 <Asheron> Noldo have you checked out the FIRS industry replacement GRF?
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09:13:25 <Asheron> ok, Im trying to find out what vehicle set to use for it, it has a bunch of industries not supported by the standard set in 1.0.0
09:19:55 <Terkhen> Asheron: the README has a list of supported vehicle sets
09:20:20 <Asheron> I read that, didnt see it
09:22:43 <Asheron> Ah ok found it, Thanks Terkhen.
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10:00:12 <amalloy> how do i report AI crashes?
10:00:59 <amalloy> i had some problems with missing libraries earlier, but since fixing that pathzilla crashed after getting quite a few things built correctly
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10:03:22 <Noldo> most have threads in the forum
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11:04:37 <Phazorx> is there some way to make game not to spawn industries?
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11:09:49 <planetmaker> except: write a newgrf
11:09:51 <Phazorx> not even with a custom grf?
11:10:13 <Phazorx> i'm afraid i lack knowledge to do that
11:13:59 <planetmaker> but even with newgrfs you could not switch that in a running game as with that implementation it'd need setting a parameter
11:14:52 <planetmaker> or possible implementation: a meta-industry (survey camp) which is required withing the <whatever> vicinity in order to allow spawning
11:15:08 <Ammler> frosch's manual industries does that, afaik
11:15:16 <planetmaker> and without that meta-industry: no spawning. Just make that meta-industry close quickly, if not continuously supplied with xy
11:15:21 <Phazorx> Ammler: link to info plz?
11:15:35 <Ammler> grfcrawler.tt-forums.net
11:16:21 <Ammler> Phazorx: preparing scenario for wwottdgd/3?
11:17:53 <Phazorx> testing network concept
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12:12:02 <peter1138> hurr, pulseaudio tunnels fail ;s
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12:23:29 <elmz> argh, is drag&drop land purchase planned?
12:24:53 <elmz> I was in the middle of constructing a giant intersection and then a forest was planted within the area I need :P
12:25:25 <peter1138> you can just 'plan' it with rail or road tiles ;p
12:26:43 <elmz> so basically I have to cover a 100x100 area with rail/road to ensure something like this doesn't happen? :P
12:27:02 <elmz> I thought this was the kind of thing land purchase was for :P
12:36:37 <Rubidium> but it is kind of used to block other players by building large areas with purchased land
12:37:10 <Eddi|zuHause> it has been a long standing suggestion to make it drag&drop-able in single player...
12:38:43 <Rubidium> so find someone to implement and commit that :)
12:38:54 <peter1138> otoh you can just block with lots of rail/road pieces
12:39:19 <Rubidium> and then build a bridge over that :)
12:45:39 <elmz> there are always ways to block others
12:46:03 <dihedral> write a 'block detection' :-P
12:47:58 <Eddi|zuHause> how about a limited buy-land, where it blocks "world" actions like industry spawning and town growth, but not player actions?
12:50:08 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem there is that you might want to block AI players, but not human players, which the game engine is designed to NOT distinguish
12:52:27 <elmz> well, personally I just play mplayer with friends, and we even alter our tracks to allow construction for others easier
12:52:50 <elmz> so for me a drag&drop land purchase wouldn't be a problem
12:53:26 <elmz> maybe there could be a game setting to disallow drag&drop land purchase that public servers could use?
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13:26:54 <Eddi|zuHause> damn, i just read "BOFH" in that message :p
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14:13:12 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: smatz * r19614 /trunk/ (33 files in 11 dirs): -Codechange: "it's" => "its" where appropriate
14:13:27 <Mazur> How about this for a solution: implement an "option to buy this land", which can be overridden by another player with straight out buying? You could take out an option on the area you're building, preventing an industry or local authority to build there¸ but if another player _needs_ it to get through, they can buy what they need to progress?
14:16:42 <Mazur> You could also take an option on areas which are built upon, basically requesting politely whoever is within that area to move elsewhere, without having to demolish the buildings. Just like unserviced industries that close.
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15:46:52 <TrueBrain> CZ mirror is now too in sync with the rest of our network; sorry if anyone had issues downloading the latest nightly :)
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16:05:48 <Ammler> TrueBrain: thanks, we used for a short time nl. directly, already changed back..
16:11:44 <TrueBrain> Ammler: did you know the 'twitter' thing on openttdcoop.org is slow? And that it holds the main content till it is loaded? That it is terrible for the user?
16:13:03 <KenjiE20> it's their js box thing
16:13:07 <TrueBrain> no, it is your website
16:13:19 <TrueBrain> it should not matter how long their js stall
16:13:23 <Ammler> then we should replace it with something else
16:13:24 <TrueBrain> yours should be done and done by then
16:13:26 <KenjiE20> it's loaded fine for me, whenever I've made updates
16:13:54 <Ammler> might it be, we use a table?
16:14:22 <Ammler> and some browsers wait until they have the whole table
16:14:55 <TrueBrain> here it happens on EVERY page load
16:15:03 <KenjiE20> twitter loaded straight away
16:15:07 <TrueBrain> just holds the main content till that $##$%#$ twitter thing is loaded, and google ads are loaded
16:15:08 <KenjiE20> if anything it paused on google ads
16:15:31 <TrueBrain> do not make your website depend on 3rd party things to be done loading, that is my advise
16:15:53 <KenjiE20> the twitter box loads content in the background
16:15:55 <TrueBrain> (in case of DNS failure or them being down or what ever, you have a never loading website)
16:16:17 <KenjiE20> google ads are in an iframe iirc
16:16:21 <KenjiE20> (I didn't add those)
16:16:38 <TrueBrain> either way, just relaying the fact it is fucking annoying :)
16:17:07 <Ammler> KenjiE20: I guess, the iframe is made by the script
16:21:36 <TrueBrain> at least I am not waiting for the content to show up because of some thingy I would never use
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17:58:27 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: terkhen * r19615 /trunk/src/ (company_cmd.cpp graph_gui.cpp): -Fix [FS#3763]: Company related graphs weren't updated correctly after changing the company colour.
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19:31:45 <Mazur> Ammler: For me it loads up as fast as the browser gets started.
19:32:36 <Vircung> I wonder if you could help me because i couldn't find nothing about far/near end in orders
19:34:09 <planetmaker> Rubidium, you might want to pull the data from our public server (not stable)
19:34:27 <planetmaker> 20:17h is interesting
19:34:28 <Mazur> Do you see it listed in the order list, between square brackets after the destinations?
19:34:41 <Alberth> Vircung: it is relatively new
19:34:47 <Mazur> Vircung: Do you see it listed in the order list, between square brackets after the destinations?
19:35:04 <Mazur> Ok, you can change it by clicking on it.
19:35:17 <Vircung> i noticed that but how it works
19:35:20 * Mazur nearly missed out a 'c' in that.
19:35:57 <Alberth> Vircung: just change it, and watch where the trains parks at the platform :) (assuming your train is shorter than the platform)
19:36:10 <Mazur> Well, it a 3 tile train goes to a terminus station with 5 tile tracks, if you set "near end", it'll be out of the station a little faster.
19:36:37 <Mazur> Because then it will, stop on the first 3 patform tiles, not the last 3.
19:37:02 <Alberth> 'near end' is the wrong end I think
19:37:45 <Alberth> Vircung: now please fix the wiki so it becomes findable :)
19:38:15 <Mazur> Alberth: How do you mean "wrong end"?
19:38:52 <Alberth> isn't 'end' not at the tiles opposite of where the train enters?
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19:39:27 <Vircung> and another thing, i got 1.0 version but i noticed that my fast forward game button isn't working, any ideas ? it's fresh install :)
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19:39:42 <Mazur> They're both "ends" as seen from the platform.
19:40:41 <Mazur> But you could rephrase it into "Start of" and "End of" platform.
19:42:00 <Vircung> Mazur that could be cofuseing becaise start of and end of is relative
19:42:36 <Eoin> has cargodist got any further development wise
19:42:39 <Eoin> not followed it for a while
19:44:07 <Mazur> I saw a screenschot with a programmed train, is that a module that can be used in OpenTTD? Or is it a TTDX only feature?
19:44:20 <Rubidium> Vircung: using Ubuntu or OSX?
19:45:08 <Rubidium> then I've got no clue; should work fine (you're using the official 1.0.0 though, right?)
19:47:34 <TrueBrain> assuming you havne't joined a multiplayer game ;)
19:48:41 <Vircung> then the button would be unavaible
19:51:41 <Alberth> did you try it with a small game (one or two trains only, for example)?
19:52:38 <Vircung> hmm, no, i started on 2kx2k map, i'll try out that way
19:52:52 <Alberth> Mazur: no idea what a 'programmed train' is
19:53:03 <Vircung> but from start that wasn't working (with 2 trains)
19:53:04 <Alberth> use a smaller map as well for testing
19:53:30 <Alberth> If you run into the CPU speed limit, FF has no effect
19:56:28 <Mazur> Alberth: Orders like "If load is more than 90%, go there." "Go to step X"
19:57:03 <Mazur> Found the programmable signals patch.
19:57:05 <Alberth> Vircung: hmm, no clue then.
19:57:40 <Vircung> got same problem with rc3 but i tought that would be fixed
19:57:53 <Vircung> or it happens only to me
19:58:04 <Alberth> Mazur: click 'goto', click at an order in the list. You get a new order with such options.
19:58:35 <Alberth> Mazur: programmable signals is something different (and not in trunk)
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19:59:08 <Mazur> I know. And thank you, I'll figure it from here.
19:59:56 <Mazur> I'm not going to apply the signals patch, since then my savegames would not be runnable by everybody.
20:04:52 <Mazur> And then where would I be if I ran into an oddity or bug?
20:05:18 <Mazur> At home, that's where I would be, most like.
20:21:22 *** nighthawk_c_m was kicked by DorpsGek (Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.)
20:22:13 <Yexo> XeryusTC: yes, all clients change that value at the same time, but newgrfs can check it while initializing so either all newgrfs would have to be reinitialized when the setting is changed or the next client that joins after the setting was changed might do different things
20:22:16 <planetmaker> long time since I saw that
20:22:35 <PeterT> planetmaker: and it was probably me the last time you saw it
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20:25:06 <planetmaker> many have gone through that particular kick before ;-)
20:26:02 <planetmaker> while I considered it rude and in dispise of the quoted channel initially, I changed my perception :-)
20:27:35 <glx> Vircung: how is cpu usage before you press fast forward?
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20:34:07 <glx> if you have 80% without fast forward, it's normal you don't notice any speed up when you enable fast forward
20:35:16 <glx> hmm just an idea, do you have the music files?
20:36:29 <glx> so forget my idea (I though maybe the player was on without music, so cpu waste)
20:37:26 <glx> anyway retry with a smaller map, it's quite impossible to see fast forward effect on the biggest ones
20:39:50 <Vircung> i runned a single train in a loop so i'll see the diffrence :P
20:41:09 <XeryusTC> Yexo: thank you for explaining :)
20:41:24 <Vircung> on nightly i also see no diffrence between ff and normal
20:45:20 <glx> ha that can be the problem
20:45:41 <glx> windows should be swapping continuously
20:46:12 <Vircung> but the strange thing that even on my gf's notebook it it's the same, ff not working
20:47:24 <Vircung> i got 1,5GB but my pc is freaking out with it :/
20:47:56 <Vircung> i'll be VERy happy if i could use it
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20:53:19 <Belugas> mmh right.. 256 is quite not enough. I have 512 and i'm already like a snail
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21:09:15 <Belugas> i wuld hardly call THAT a split...
21:09:27 <Belugas> or a very small one...
21:09:35 <Jolteon> I don't think it was a net-split.
21:09:38 <Jolteon> looks like a BNC provider failed.
21:09:56 <Belugas> that would most probably be the case
21:09:59 <PeterT> Good thing I have a good BNC provider.
21:10:00 <Jolteon> or it was just coincidence that one of them uses a ZNC quit message.
21:10:43 <OwenS> Rather polite failure if they had time to quit
21:11:10 <OwenS> But, I'm going to hazard a guess here: All are #openttdcoop members. Presumably, they're using one of their servers/VPSes as a BNC ;-)
21:11:11 <PeterT> I wonder if their BNC crashes randomnly like ours did, Jolteon.
21:11:15 <Jolteon> Happens if ZNC was gracefully quit.
21:11:36 <Jolteon> It's funny that the last two returned a write error.
21:11:38 <PeterT> OwenS: it's a german bouncer, vs****.vserver.de
21:11:55 <Jolteon> It could be ZNC was in the process of dying, but by the time it got to the last two quits, it was just fuck it and stopped producing the users error message
21:12:00 <OwenS> PeterT, aka dev.openttdcoop.org ;-)
21:12:02 <Jolteon> and just scream write errors.
21:12:20 <PeterT> Because Ammler uses the devzone bouncer, and it doesn't fail
21:15:49 <OwenS> PeterT, hmm... I wonder which server that vs* is then
21:16:47 <PeterT> No no, any BNC downtime is fail :-)
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21:17:15 <Ammler> is there a bouncer which you can update without restart?
21:17:51 <OwenS> Presumably theres an Erlang bouncer somewhere? :p
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21:35:00 * Terkhen should get a bouncer some day
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21:36:01 <PeterT> Terkhen: I can offer you one
21:36:06 <PeterT> Terkhen: or rdlBNC.com
21:37:22 <Terkhen> I usually don't trust anything that is free and stores personal info
21:38:05 <PeterT> Except for nickserv pass, but the admins don't look at your settings anyway
21:38:54 <planetmaker> Terkhen: if you want a bouncer quickly: yes :-)
21:43:01 <mrruben5> we just discovered that exit signal looks too much like normal signal in toyland...
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21:48:07 <OwenS> There are signal graphics for different climates? O_o
21:49:31 <Jolteon> [22:37] <Terkhen> I usually don't trust anything that is free and stores personal info
21:49:50 <Jolteon> rdlBNC doesn't store personal information, aside from your email & password, but you have to be a fool to use the same password as something important.
21:50:08 <Jolteon> and your email is disposed of as soon as your verification mail is sent.
21:50:10 <Ammler> mrruben5: that is because the stake is white too
21:50:28 <Ammler> hmm, how is it with original
21:50:42 <PeterT> and NickServ password, but like I said: Adminsdon't look through that stuff anyway. they have better things to do.
21:50:52 <mrruben5> ammler: yeah we noticed that too :) on all types of railroad
21:50:58 <mrruben5> needs to be way darker
21:51:06 <Ammler> it is even worse with original ttd set
21:51:38 <Ammler> mrruben5: nobody usually plays toyland ;-)
21:51:54 <mrruben5> for a good reason :P
21:52:45 <mrruben5> by the way, we have a little plan to move the exit from town drop in coop, or even build an entire new station, can you give us your advice?
21:54:08 <Ammler> mrruben5: not in this channel :-P
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22:29:35 <amalloy> how do i find/join a public game? i'm struggling with getting beyond point-to-point networks and i'd like to see how a good mainline is built and operated
22:29:54 <PeterT> Download the latest stable
22:29:58 <PeterT> and join a random server
22:30:08 <PeterT> #openttdcoop Welcome Stable, for example
22:30:45 <amalloy> i don't know how to join a server
22:31:05 <PeterT> Multiplayer -> Find Servers -> Click on server and "Join game"
22:31:14 <PeterT> make sure you have "internet" and not "LAN"
22:31:23 <amalloy> ah. somehow i must have missed the find servers button. found Internet, but not Servers
22:35:56 <amalloy> also, i heard there is a grf to make passengers have a destination in mind, but i can't seem to find it
22:36:13 <Ammler> do not confuse grf with patch
22:37:35 <amalloy> oh, this one's not a grf? that explains the problem then. i imagine patches are harder to apply/unapply?
22:38:04 <Ammler> mostly you find compiled bundles in the near of the patch
22:38:42 <PeterT> I haven't updated them in a while
22:38:50 <PeterT> but if you want to try...
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22:40:45 <SpComb> you could fully automate the cargodist builds
22:41:30 <PeterT> Your script doesn't automatically run itself, does it?
22:41:49 <SpComb> I wasn't specifically talking about my script, no
22:42:20 <Mazur> CLeaned up an infrastructural weirdness in my game, where express tracks were on the outside of the all stops tracks.
22:42:45 <SpComb> I just mean that you could kick off builds of a random git repo every 24h, no manual work involved
22:42:47 <Mazur> With trains running along all four tracks.
22:43:01 <SpComb> although what's missing is an automated way of testing those builds
22:43:17 <SpComb> I presume the official build farm doesn't do that either
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23:37:26 <SpComb> man, I need to start a cargodist-sprinkles franchise in the TT-MS forums
23:37:35 <SpComb> there's like a dozen topics about it there
23:42:49 <PeterT> Timmaex must feel important announcing all the releases
continue to next day ⏵
