IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-04-04
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00:16:35 <Mazur> Well, so far so good, I'm changing over to PBS and most of it seems to work. Of course, I'm doing the easy stuff first, remote branches.
00:39:29 <Mazur> Ah, ijmportant discovery, changing combo signals on platform exits into regular path exits has no dangerous side effects.
00:49:03 <PeterT> 15:44:32 < SpComb> blame PeterT for coming up with it :)
00:49:03 <PeterT> <-- coming up with what?
00:53:24 <Mazur> Is there a way to turn off town/station etc. names and refinery smoke easily, or do I have to figure out anything hidden by it by demolish and rebuild?
00:55:47 <Mazur> Pity the smoke can't be turned off.
00:56:02 <PeterT> I don't really think it affects it that much
00:56:37 <Mazur> Well, I'm changing over from BEEC signalling to PBS.
00:57:12 <Mazur> And I can;t see whether or not any signal/track join/split is behind it,
00:57:52 <Mazur> Not sure anymoree what I built there.
00:58:39 <PeterT> SpComb: Coming up with the 337 kib cargodist patch?
01:02:30 <Mazur> Solved the situation, anyway. Luckily the city allowed the room to move my station one square back into it to make room for a platform signal.
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01:07:57 <Mazur> When CTRL+dragging mouse to replicate signals, the game should by default leave an interval free to the previous junction.
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02:22:05 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it starts at the tile you select
02:44:44 <Mazur> Eddi: Yes, I know, but with PBS ou want to place your path signal right before an intersection, and drag backwards to replicate, but in that replication you want it to leave a full interval (meaning safe stopping space) before the preceding intersection.
02:46:12 <Mazur> Now it places the last signal within that distance, if necessary.
02:46:22 <Belugas> tut tut tut... don't say "You", say "I"
02:46:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Mazur: i understand your reasoning, but i don't think it's a good way to implement
02:47:36 <Mazur> Ok, I have much to learn. <--- young grasshopper (in OTTD terms).
02:48:23 <Mazur> But I don't see (yet) why this would not be a good implementation for path signals.
02:51:20 <Mazur> But my changeover is going well.
02:52:34 <Mazur> I even changed signals at a station and aroung while 4 trains going the same direction where passing.
02:54:28 <Mazur> Clearly they had had a blockage earlier in the game and got through it one after the other.
02:55:19 <Mazur> I realise none of what I do impresses anyone here, but for my first real game I feel I'm doing well.
04:46:41 <Rubidium> Mazur: the number of people that can be impressed is quite low if 95% is sleeping
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05:05:14 <Eddi|zuHause> what is sleep? :p
06:04:14 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r19557 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r19502): Missed conversion to checking temporary data broke rail type setting upon changing traction type.
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07:19:29 <George> I hope it would be not too hard, but I need it a lot :)
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07:20:54 <andythenorth> George: are you planning to use sloped sprites to improve appearance of trucks on hills?
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07:48:37 <Eddi|zuHause> George: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/curve_info_fs2521.diff does what you want?
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08:08:39 <Eddi|zuHause> ... hm... why can't i login to FS?
08:09:37 <Rubidium> because you need to sleep?
08:10:06 <Rubidium> for what it's worth: works fine for me
08:10:24 <Eddi|zuHause> it says "username or password not known" or something like that...
08:10:59 <Rubidium> when did you last login there?
08:11:16 <Eddi|zuHause> couple months ago?
08:11:33 <Rubidium> couple as in more like almost 10?
08:11:45 <Eddi|zuHause> no, almost certainly less
08:11:57 <Rubidium> so you've merged you openttd accounts already
08:12:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that definitely
08:12:20 <Rubidium> then you're probably using the wrong password
08:12:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i wouldn't know which other password i would have used...
08:13:43 <Rubidium> ●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●● <- that's your hashed password :)
08:14:29 <Eddi|zuHause> is there a "lost password" function?
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08:17:55 <Eddi|zuHause> ah... i found out...
08:18:26 <Eddi|zuHause> ... why would i have used THAT password?!?
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08:20:09 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: did you make the password choice or did the cat make the choice?
08:20:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i did not have the cats 10 months ago :p
08:20:54 <Rubidium> then the cat changed your password more recently
08:29:50 <Eddi|zuHause> most likely stuff about password strength constraints...
08:30:56 <Eddi|zuHause> why does FS not switch to DST?
08:31:45 <Eddi|zuHause> and i can't change it myself, because it says "must fill out e-mail or jabber field"
08:31:54 <Eddi|zuHause> but there is no such field...
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08:59:14 <Alberth> is the time of a post in FS of any relevance?
08:59:55 <Alberth> month + year is sufficient I think
09:00:32 <planetmaker> and happy Easter!
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09:06:03 <andythenorth> Alberth: strange, that wiki page doesn't contain the answer to 'what is the point of food and goods'
09:06:55 <Terkhen> moving stuff to the center of a city
09:07:09 <Alberth> my telepathic powers are failing..... again <sigh/>
09:07:22 <andythenorth> why bother moving goods / food to cities?
09:07:37 <planetmaker> andythenorth: food makes arctic cities grow
09:07:41 <planetmaker> in the first place
09:08:16 <Alberth> why is food/goods different than eg coal?
09:08:29 <andythenorth> I have a FIRS problem
09:08:48 <andythenorth> one chain dominates all the others
09:09:07 <Terkhen> in theory it is more complicated to move cargo into cities (you have to use road vehicles), but in practice everybody builds a distant truck station inside of the city
09:09:26 <andythenorth> steel -> engineering supplies
09:09:41 <andythenorth> well, coal / iron / scrap -> steel -> engineering supplies
09:09:52 <andythenorth> all the farming chain is kind of a dead duck
09:09:54 <Terkhen> indeed, that's always the first chain I build
09:10:18 <andythenorth> incidentally the wiki *still* spreads the myth that goods increases town growth :o
09:10:58 <planetmaker> it's constantly edited into it again, I guess
09:12:19 <andythenorth> in temperate goods and food are....unsatisfactory.
09:12:26 <planetmaker> actually... the whole section(s) on town growth there is completely wrong...
09:13:16 * andythenorth thinks about something much discussed by me and Dan MacK
09:13:35 <andythenorth> ports which represent 'import/export' from the map
09:13:42 <andythenorth> so deliver food, get iron ore in return etc
09:13:58 <andythenorth> works well in railroad tycoon
09:14:45 <planetmaker> andythenorth: but don't make it part of core FIRS. Make it an add-on
09:15:46 <andythenorth> Terkhen: are you hauling any farm cargos?
09:16:32 <Ammler> good morning to you :-)
09:16:46 <planetmaker> hm... can anyone give me a hint which svn command to use in order to get the 1.0.0 tag?
09:17:10 <Ammler> svn sw svn://svn.openttd.org/tag/1.0.0
09:17:28 <Terkhen> yes, but they are secondary
09:18:00 <Terkhen> the dairy produces a lot of food when receiving both cargos, though :)
09:19:17 <Ammler> the penalty system of pbs is sometimes a bit too sensitive
09:19:19 <andythenorth> hmm...I should deliver some manufacturing supplies to my dairy
09:19:39 <andythenorth> Terkhen which climate are you playing?
09:19:43 <planetmaker> interesting situation there, Ammler :-)
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09:20:49 <andythenorth> I think subtropic is the most fun in terms of town growth
09:22:31 <andythenorth> how's about a patch so that goods *does* affect town growth?
09:24:42 <planetmaker> not in principle. Rather a patch which allows newgrf definition of cargo(s) which affect town growth
09:25:04 <planetmaker> that way it sounds rather like what fits conceptiually into the game ;-)
09:25:11 <andythenorth> I wanted to suggest that, but I thought it might be too much of a pony :)
09:25:13 <planetmaker> But it'd be nice :-)
09:25:32 <andythenorth> is town growth properly the domain of house newgrfs though?
09:27:03 <planetmaker> seems it's mentioned in the action0cargos
09:27:35 <planetmaker> lol? Is it already possible?
09:27:57 <andythenorth> not for temperate
09:28:35 <planetmaker> uhm... not? The description only says "like (...) in tropical"
09:29:12 <planetmaker> but maybe you're right.
09:30:57 <andythenorth> might be a nice thing to extend....
09:31:09 <planetmaker> very much so, yes
09:31:14 * andythenorth wonders where the code is for town acceptance
09:31:22 * planetmaker makes a note in the v8 newgrf thingy :-P
09:32:00 <planetmaker> grep -Ri "affect" src/*
09:32:06 <planetmaker> that's how I'd start ;-)
09:32:20 <Alberth> andythenorth: isn't it simple more than x/8 acceptance in the station rectangle? (I think x=7, but don't know for sure)
09:32:59 <andythenorth> yep, it's in town_cmd.cpp
09:33:16 <andythenorth> looks currently simple
09:33:35 <Alberth> OpenTTD is a simple game :p
09:33:55 <Terkhen> IIRC it was defined by some hardcoded values
09:34:19 <andythenorth> if (TilePixelHeight(t->xy) >= GetSnowLine() && t->act_food == 0 && t->population > 90)
09:34:30 <andythenorth> act_food is reset monthly
09:35:27 <andythenorth> making that controllable by newgrf would be rather more complicated?
09:35:40 <andythenorth> how many growth cargos could sensibly be allowed?
09:37:06 <andythenorth> 4 would be plenty
09:37:20 <andythenorth> unless anyone wants 'ridiculously hard town growth newgrf'
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09:37:54 * andythenorth imagines having to deliver 8 cargos *every* month for growth
09:38:12 <andythenorth> maybe some people would like it :P
09:41:09 <andythenorth> he he...looks like quite a lot of us have tried to solve the 'power' problem
09:41:18 <andythenorth> I know pikka has thought about it too :)
09:42:29 <andythenorth> lots of players think there should be a role for electricity
09:42:35 <andythenorth> I have one in mind, it's evil :)
09:44:17 * Terkhen is ignoring the power plant in his last game
09:45:33 <andythenorth> Terkhen: if all industry production halved without power plants, would you ignore the power plant then?
09:47:51 <Terkhen> I'll have a single coal / fuel oil truck delivering to it to prevent its closure
09:48:52 <andythenorth> yes...but easily gamed as Terkhen pointed out :)
09:51:27 <andythenorth> Terkhen: and if you needed one power plant for every three industries?
09:53:43 <DanMacK> I'd say go every five... But if you're doing that, prior to power plants, shouldn't factories and such accept coal?
09:54:04 <Terkhen> FIRS has too much industries already, I doubt that many power plants would fit in small maps (I'm playing 128x128 or 256x256, I don't remember which size)
09:54:31 <andythenorth> I think there are some problems with this idea :)
09:54:42 * andythenorth thinks about town growth instead
09:56:52 <Terkhen> not delivering to power plants stops all towns from growing?
09:57:15 * ragzid is going to commit suicide because of MS-SQL
09:58:02 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I don't know how to implement that in newgrf :)
09:58:21 <andythenorth> except by creating a town set and checking station delivered cargos or something
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09:59:28 <Terkhen> I don't think that newgrfs can change town growth in game
10:00:35 <NicO_ParkeR> i was wondering, is there any n810 port of openttd?
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10:01:00 <OwenS> NicO_ParkeR: Doesn't the N810 just use X11?
10:01:18 <NicO_ParkeR> yep, but arm proc
10:01:37 <OwenS> ARM is supported. It should compile out of the box with the right dependencies
10:01:41 <NicO_ParkeR> i havent seen an arm compile yet
10:01:41 <planetmaker> you could just try to compile...
10:01:54 <OwenS> NicO_ParkeR: The S60v3 port is on ARM
10:01:59 <NicO_ParkeR> ok i will d/l source
10:02:31 <NicO_ParkeR> where is the s60 port?
10:03:08 <OwenS> NicO_ParkeR: Its an unofficial port on the forums
10:03:30 <NicO_ParkeR> ok i must check tghat before
10:04:03 <NicO_ParkeR> because i'm not sure i have all the commpiler ttools
10:04:19 <NicO_ParkeR> installed on my n810
10:04:41 <OwenS> Generally you would cross compile to it
10:06:09 <Terkhen> hmmm... I should try to understand callbacks again
10:06:43 <NicO_ParkeR> brb, trying to find a port
10:11:10 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I'll add the proposals straight to my nfov8 text I prepare ;-)
10:13:34 <NicO_ParkeR> there is a port, but outdated
10:13:50 <NicO_ParkeR> i think i must wait a little
10:14:32 <NicO_ParkeR> the thing is that they maemo-ized the game
10:14:54 <NicO_ParkeR> for shortcuts, tiny screen etc...
10:15:35 <NicO_ParkeR> So compile it myself wouldn't be a good idea
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10:16:10 <NicO_ParkeR> i'll post something on maemo.org
10:16:56 <NicO_ParkeR> but 1.0 on n810 will be really cool!
10:17:30 <NicO_ParkeR> thanks for your help folks
10:17:46 <NicO_ParkeR> have a good sunday!
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10:34:38 <Alberth> planetmaker: 5e is about tags/keywords?
10:37:29 <planetmaker> Alberth: for example, yes.
10:38:06 <planetmaker> I didn't elaborate too much on 5c ... e as it's already discussed by frosch in his document I gave as 'further reading' for 5)
10:38:23 <planetmaker> and I didn't want to paste that whole text file there ;-)
10:41:28 <planetmaker> and frosch mentions your keyword/tags. Which I think is a good thing to have
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11:03:12 <Fuchs82> yayyyyyyyyyyy, I just read about the 1.0.0 release!!! :-D
11:03:24 <Fuchs82> Congrats!!!!! I'm so impressed!!!
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11:22:19 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19558 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix [FS#3730]: Window::OnResize() was not always called while resizing a window.
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11:39:13 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19559 /trunk/src/ (bridge.h bridge_gui.cpp tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Rename CheckBridge_Stuff() to CheckBridgeAvailability().
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11:44:17 <Mazur> Can't believe what I did earlier: went all night last night, even though tired and not sober, changing over signals, without a single crash, this morning, not 5 minutes within resuming I have a pair on top of eachother.
11:45:51 <Mazur> I guess I was both more lucky and careful last night.
11:46:14 <Eddi|zuHause> scratch the careful :)
11:47:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i was on the brink of mentioning how close you were to a train crash, but i thought let's have him figure that out by himself :p
11:52:06 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, it might be impossible to adjust pbs penalties so they would use the very little detour but without breaking something else ;-)
11:52:40 <Eddi|zuHause> that is not my problem :)
11:53:30 <Ammler> well, which value woud I need to change in that case?
11:53:44 <Eddi|zuHause> pbs_cross_penalty or so
11:54:42 * andythenorth wonders why lomo is so ugly
11:54:49 <Knuffelwolf> peeps i have a little question
11:55:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i have never played lomo
11:55:59 <Knuffelwolf> when i have build railways with stations and all is there a way to give trains priority? like the slow train needs to wait till the fast train passed it?
11:56:38 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: me neither...I am reading a thread. Someone has used lomo trams for industrial ng....nice idea :)
11:58:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Knuffelwolf: no. either use timetabling or weird (coop) signal constructions...
12:00:55 <Knuffelwolf> ah thanks will play with signaling then i think
12:09:52 <peter1138> lomo's palette isn't as varied as ttd's
12:10:07 <peter1138> there's a lot of greys and browns
12:14:44 <Alberth> Knuffelwolf: or build two seperate tracks, one for fast trains and one for slow ones
12:15:36 <Knuffelwolf> maybe Alberth but thats not as real life situations
12:16:25 <PeterT> 500 revisions isn't that soon
12:16:31 <Alberth> Knuffelwolf: That would be considered to be a bug in reality :p
12:16:58 <Knuffelwolf> rofl its just how you look at it
12:19:53 <Mazur> Eddi: I _really_ was very careful last night, at least for gthe first 6 hours of play.
12:20:27 <Mazur> Taking care to change only one block at th time, and not two adjacent ones.
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12:20:42 <Mazur> Doing station exits first.
12:21:13 <Mazur> And only when not in near use.
12:21:29 <Mazur> I.e. behind trains, and not in front.
12:22:01 <Mazur> Selecting the correct signal through the signal popup before each change.
12:23:38 <Alberth> A quicker way is to stop one or two trains, so a piece of track gets empty. Then change the signals, and start the train(s) again.
12:24:09 <Knuffelwolf> not really Alberth seeing we try to build the dutch railway system
12:24:26 <Knuffelwolf> and overtaking happens alot :')
12:24:34 * Mazur is in the Netherlands, too.
12:25:00 <Knuffelwolf> ah mede nederlander :P
12:25:14 <Mazur> Since I at least know the geography, I figured it would be useful when learning the ropes.
12:26:08 <Mazur> So that's where I built my HQ, as well.
12:26:37 <Mazur> Ah, thanks, I didn't remember. If I ever knew.
12:26:57 <Knuffelwolf> almost no one knows where it is lmao
12:27:15 <Mazur> Leiden is a tad more known. ;-P
12:27:53 <Knuffelwolf> sure is :') i mean i am almost living in germany lmao
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12:28:40 <Mazur> A real horror spaghetti in my game, I started with a two track station in the North, by hte time I wanted to expand, the city had built all around it.
12:29:26 <Knuffelwolf> oeh really nasty i try to prevent that with comming out the town with enough trackt to grow if needen
12:29:29 <planetmaker> then reduce the town growth speed
12:29:51 <Mazur> And I prefer not to demolish unless absolutely needed.
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12:30:39 <Mazur> Planetmaker: Oh, no, it's part of my learning process, next time I'll just start with a bigger station or byu the land around it.
12:31:14 <Mazur> Anyway, on with hte motley, I'm nearly done woth the changeover.
12:32:20 <planetmaker> Mazur: build the station out-of-town and use a bus or tram feeder-service :-)
12:33:07 <planetmaker> the possibilities are endless.
12:33:25 <planetmaker> or just buy the land in front of the streets near your station.
12:33:32 <SpComb> out-of-town train stations are culturally bankrupt
12:33:34 <planetmaker> Then the town cannot expand in that direction
12:34:16 <OwenS> Or just station walk the out-of-town station into the city :p
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12:36:16 * andythenorth considers starting a new Arctic game with variety distribution set to 'very high'.
12:36:19 <andythenorth> nice feature that :)
12:36:39 <andythenorth> I have lost the love for my temperate game :| no town growth challenge
12:37:08 <SpComb> I preferr Arctic maps without variety distribution
12:37:18 <SpComb> seems to form the best maps
12:39:23 <glx> <OwenS> Or just station walk the out-of-town station into the city :p <-- distant join is easier
12:41:41 <OwenS> glx: I use station walk to refer to "stations not conjoined" :p
12:41:53 <OwenS> Distant join is the process, a walked station the result
12:43:12 <glx> but it's not station walk (as you don't need to actually build/remove)
12:45:25 <andythenorth> do towns prefer to locate on flat land?
12:45:41 <andythenorth> I want an arctic map, mountainous, variety very high, with towns above snow line
12:45:48 <andythenorth> can't seem to generate that :o
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12:47:15 <SpComb> andythenorth: yeah, the towns above snow line bit is difficult
12:47:34 <SpComb> make sure you have it set to Smooth or so
12:48:02 <SpComb> I don't like variety distribution at high, last I looked it didn't form any coherent mountain ranges
12:48:12 <SpComb> just a larger number of induvidual little spikes
12:49:47 <SpComb> it still isn't very good, but at least you get some that way
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12:51:40 <andythenorth> Mountainous, Smoothness = Rough, Variety = None, snowline = 2 produces lots of towns above snowline
12:52:12 <andythenorth> but it's lacking the valleys and passes that Smoothness = Very Rough and Variety = Very High creates :|
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12:54:01 <Mazur> Is there a way ro reduce a station by say one plagtform without demolishing it?
12:55:07 <planetmaker> yes. Use the bulldozer, not the dynamite
12:55:41 <SpComb> andythenorth: try Flat, Variety = None, Smoothness = Smooth
13:10:08 <andythenorth> Terkhen: if this industry was finished, do you think it would change the gameplay dominance of steel?
13:14:55 <ddfreyne> how does one set FIRS economies?
13:18:30 <Terkhen> steel would still be more important but I think it would help (and IMO makes more sense gameplay wise than the paper mill)
13:20:44 <andythenorth> ddfreyne: you can't set economies yet, they're not done :)
13:22:05 <Terkhen> hmm... maybe it should produce something besides engineering supplies
13:23:29 <andythenorth> maybe. It's main purpose is to provide an alternative source of engineering supplies besides the machine shop
13:23:44 <andythenorth> it balances with the fertiliser plant (source of farm supplies only)
13:37:00 <Zuu> Maybe it is time to replace the purpose line of CluelessPlus "Purpose: To play around with the noai framework. - Not to make the next big thing." :-p
13:37:16 <Zuu> Support for all cargos is under way.
13:37:44 <Zuu> Including town -> industry and industry -> town connections.
13:38:24 <Zuu> As the type of node (industry/town) has been abstracted away in the pair-finder.
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13:45:24 <Zuu> hmm, it becomes very intresting trying to figure out if a bus/truck stop belongs to a town or industry and what industry in the load function. The question is if it is at all possible without storing some clues in the save game.
13:46:32 <Zuu> Especially since sometimes naming stations fails for unknown reasons.
13:47:09 <Zuu> So you can't rely on storing the town/industry id in the station name.
13:48:01 <Zuu> (you could have a word-list with say 200 words if you want to make it prettier, but still store a number there)
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14:19:31 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19560 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Bridge build error message should not show the same message twice.
14:23:07 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19561 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Feature: Give more detailed error message when trying to build a too long bridge.
14:24:10 <Zuu> hmm, NoAI 1.0 API do not even have Get/Set Name for AIStation. :-s
14:26:11 <Zuu> Guess I have no other choise than saving ot the save game, which is not really all that good since you then can't recover connections of crashed AIs.
14:27:42 <Zuu> IMHO, it is much better if the code that builds a connection set the information needed to recover the connections than the save code which will only run if the AI is alive.
14:41:17 * andythenorth buys a cheese train
14:54:37 <Zuu> Oh, sorry for my rants about AIStation.GetName being removed, it has only been moved in the 1.0 version of the API.
14:55:07 <Zuu> Though, there is some issue with it still that it fails claiming that thet station name is not unique when it is.
14:59:54 * andythenorth needs to do something about farms
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15:10:30 <andythenorth> no breakdowns also means, no reason to upgrade :o
15:10:45 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: you forgot to change non-stop behaviour default ;-)
15:11:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: change to what?
15:11:11 <Ammler> so non-stop is default of course
15:11:38 <Ammler> ok, you are a "special" gamer :-)
15:11:49 <Ammler> but for newbies it would be easier
15:12:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i don't see why it would be...
15:12:41 <Ammler> you don't use non-stop orders?
15:12:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: that's not the point...
15:13:38 <Ammler> I know 1 situation, where it "might" work without non-stop
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15:14:20 <Mazur> Actually, I prefer the default as it is. Speaking as a sample from the great newbie pool.
15:14:48 <Ammler> Mazur: you know the non-stop behaviour?
15:15:27 <Ammler> so it is logical for you, that a train should stop on every station it passes?
15:15:42 <Ammler> without adding it to the order list
15:15:47 <Mazur> Default the trains stops at intermediate stations, Non-stop only stops at the listed stations.
15:16:15 <Mazur> Yes, since I started as a passenger Company anyway.
15:17:11 <Ammler> it is easier to set every station to the order than to debug why it does stop, imo.
15:17:22 <Mazur> Speeded things way up instead of having to add each separate station along the way.
15:17:51 <Ammler> Mazur: it isn't about speed, you can change it with the advanced settings
15:18:02 <Ammler> the issue is that newbies mostly haven't set it
15:18:23 * Zuu wonders why two players can't have the same station names. (yes, I see in the source code that it is so, but it doesn't say why two players are not allowed to have the same name)
15:18:50 <Mazur> Nor have I, if I want an InterCity I add the non-stop per station.
15:19:05 * Zuu decides to add a random number at the end.
15:20:19 <Ammler> I think it is one of the last "default should be original TTD" settings
15:20:20 <Mazur> Is there anything to do when the map has run our of coal? Or will new mines be added automatically?
15:20:49 <Ammler> it doesn't run out of coal, if you service it properly :-)
15:21:09 <Ammler> the more coal you transport the more does it have
15:21:31 <Mazur> Ah, I thought the more you took away, the sooner it depleted.
15:22:05 <Mazur> Small wonder non of those five mines there survived.
15:23:22 * andythenorth wonders what probability to set for industries that only appear after a certain date :|
15:23:36 <andythenorth> as none of them have appeared on my map yet
15:23:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: anyway, i did not "forget" it, i decided that the default was good as it was
15:23:52 <Mazur> Any way to restart them?
15:24:26 <Alberth> Zuu: if two players each have the same name for a station, how would you do a company merge?
15:24:39 * andythenorth prospects for more mines, because farms are just boring
15:24:39 <Mazur> Or do I just have to wait for if a new one appears?
15:24:41 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: maybe you can have a period where the chance is increased?
15:25:00 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: probably
15:25:20 <andythenorth> I could set the action 0 probability very high, then let the varaction 2 do the decision....
15:25:35 <andythenorth> I could also check how many are on the map, to make sure one gets built quite early
15:25:54 <andythenorth> meanwhile....I have some mines to prospect for :)
15:26:14 * andythenorth wonders about a patch to 'buy the fricking farms, demolish them and strip mine the land'
15:26:28 <Mazur> Andy: can I have a couple of those?
15:27:10 <andythenorth> if you've got money, prospect for them
15:27:19 <andythenorth> industry menu -> fund new industry
15:27:40 <Mazur> Ah, but I only see secondary industries,
15:27:52 <andythenorth> advanced settings -> economy -> industries
15:28:15 <andythenorth> Manual primary industry construction: prospecting / as secondary / off
15:28:42 * andythenorth would like a patch for 'build a new primary industry, use prospecting, and give me a random type'
15:29:05 <andythenorth> also....'make sure it's not a fricking farm, farms suck'
15:29:18 <andythenorth> Terkhen: ^ sounds like a job for you :)
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15:29:40 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: and you still think that way?
15:30:07 <Ammler> you should play cargodist :-P
15:30:10 <andythenorth> Terkhen: just for fun. I want some new primary industries to service, but I want an element of chance :)
15:30:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: that is a whole different story
15:30:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: also that's one of the main (feature) reasons why i think cargodist is not ready for trunk
15:33:19 <Ammler> IMO, every stop belongs to the order list
15:33:30 <Ammler> you should also be able to configure stop between
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15:34:01 <Ammler> now, we have the opposite
15:34:43 * peter1138 uses non-non-stop orders
15:35:13 <Ammler> also the fact that you can't configure the where to stop on those between stations is a missing feature
15:37:58 <ddfreyne> is there a way to reserve track in a station, so that some train types will always have access?
15:38:00 <Eddi|zuHause> it should probably use the setting for that
15:38:07 <ddfreyne> I supose that requires a separate station
15:38:18 <Eddi|zuHause> ddfreyne: use waypoints
15:41:21 <Eddi|zuHause> ddfreyne: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2024.%20Jan%201951.png
15:41:53 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: they stop on a station without beeing on the station vehicle list
15:42:41 <Ammler> how do you debug such things?
15:43:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: wrong or not, how does the opposite make things easier?
15:43:14 * andythenorth has a bug in $someone's code
15:43:28 <andythenorth> industry prop 24
15:44:04 <andythenorth> should set station name. If set to 0, picks any name with Oilfield or Mines
15:44:22 <andythenorth> however FIRS junk yards are setting empty station names
15:44:22 <andythenorth> 24 \w00 // Station name String ID. No special one, but don't use 'mine'.
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15:44:57 <Ammler> why does it need to be easy? It needs to be controllable ;-)
15:45:23 <peter1138> ammler just plays the game in a very specific way
15:45:25 <Alberth> Ammler: doesn't trunk also stop at any station it encounters (unless non-stop is set)?
15:45:29 <Ammler> and when you would use the non-non-stop only when you don't have other choice, you know why
15:46:07 <peter1138> i don't assign all stops because i'm not interested in them
15:46:19 <Ammler> but usually it is set because it is default, not because you want it
15:47:28 <Ammler> Alberth: yes, it does, that is the issue we are talking...
15:47:57 <Alberth> So why is that a problem?
15:48:01 <Ammler> peter1138: but not interested doesn't mean, you don't want the train to stop there?
15:48:18 <peter1138> i want the train to stop there, that's why i built the station
15:48:38 <Ammler> but how do you know, which trains _do_ stop there?
15:48:57 <peter1138> i don't want to have to edit the orders of any route that passes through it just so it stops there
15:48:57 <andythenorth> nope, canals are stupidly expensive
15:49:04 <Alberth> at least those that have the station in their order list
15:49:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yeah, it's ridiculous
15:49:24 <peter1138> why should i care which trains _do_ stop there?
15:49:42 * andythenorth lowers loads of land instead :|
15:50:39 <Eddi|zuHause> a canal shouldn't be significantly more expensive than a railway track
15:52:39 <peter1138> whoever set the cost was on crack
15:53:26 <Eddi|zuHause> suggestion: "river" ships can enter any water tile, "ocean" ships can only enter tiles that are not adjacent to a land tile
15:53:38 <Eddi|zuHause> [so ocean ships need at least 3 tile wide canals]
15:54:07 <Chrill> Eddi|zuHause: how will they get to the docks? :P
15:54:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Chrill: they are long enough
15:54:36 <Alberth> river ships take their cargo instead
15:55:25 <Eddi|zuHause> other suggestion: we need "river docks" that can be placed on flat land
15:56:38 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: suggestion: 'water types'
15:56:48 <andythenorth> newgrf author decides where ships can go
15:56:54 <andythenorth> and at what speed....
16:09:05 <Eddi|zuHause> "if you're a doctor, why does your box say 'police'?" :p
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16:14:11 <planetmaker> The "vehicle replacement window" is not always dirtied (properly)
16:14:23 <planetmaker> or at least the buttons in the lowest row
16:14:36 <planetmaker> and at least for planes, but I guess it goes everywhere
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16:16:44 <kimiko> Eddi|zuHause: hey, no spoilers!
16:16:51 <kimiko> I'm watching the episode once I get home
16:17:06 <kimiko> < sad panda.. no Mac OS X
16:17:28 <kimiko> (so can't play OpenTTD while I'm at work :P)
16:19:19 <Zuu> As a unique string I encode a integer value using a base that contains 0-9, a-z, A-Z and some special chars. Now I got the idea to use ':' as 0 and then ')', '|', '(' etc. as 1,2,3,.. to create smilies at the station signs :-)
16:20:28 <Zuu> so 1 becomes :), 2 becomes :|, 3 becomse :( if you have a leading zero.
16:22:19 <Jupix> anyone got any idea how I can append a file to a tar on the command line so that it goes into a directory in the tar that doesn't exist in the actual filesystem?
16:23:09 <Jupix> but all I get is file/dir not found
16:24:06 <andythenorth> kimiko: you can compile, or there are compiled OS X binaries in the forums
16:28:29 <kimiko> Does the game end at 2050, or can you chose to continue if you want to?
16:30:12 <andythenorth> you can choose to continue
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16:38:41 <Alberth> Jupix: that page is about leaving out some directories in the tar, not about adding non-existent ones
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16:42:58 * andythenorth wants mixed gauge track
16:43:15 <Jupix> i'm trying the command "which records the third file in the archive under the name ‘red/cherry’ so that, if the archive is extracted using ‘tar --extract’, the third file will be written in a subdirectory named ‘red’."
16:44:14 <Alberth> you'd need food/red/cherry at the FS then, as I read it.
16:44:25 <Jupix> that's what i'm guessing as well
16:44:34 <Alberth> ie, you make 'food' disappear, just like the previous command
16:45:49 <Jupix> anyways, i have drink/green/cherry in my filesystem and i want food/red/cherry in the tar... any ideas what i should try?
16:46:33 <Jupix> and another thing is that i'm appending, not creating from scratch
16:48:09 <Alberth> as i said, you can only make directories disappear, not create new ones
16:48:56 <Alberth> if you want food/red/cherry, that must exist at the FS. with -C you can 'walk' to the right spot to include it
16:49:34 <Jupix> if that's true, then i'm screwed :D
16:50:16 <andythenorth> how could we 'fix' canal construction costs?
16:50:45 <Alberth> why not make a copy, or move the cherry file to food/red/cherry, and symlink from drink/green?
16:51:58 <Jupix> cause if there was a command line switch for it, i wouldn't have to rewrite this part of the whole webapp
16:52:45 <Jupix> funnily enough the "addmodify" function in php's pear module "archive_tar" allows to create directories, only the function doesn't work with GeekToo's 32bpp tar template that i'm trying to append png's into
16:53:22 <Jupix> it works if i create the tar from scratch using archive_tar but then i'm missing the symlinks necessary for openttd
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16:54:17 <Jupix> i was hoping the pear module implementation was based on some sort of "prefix" command line switch in the tar tool
16:54:35 <Jupix> or something else i could replicate on the command line
16:55:08 <mickster04> is there a repo address for the latest version of openttd for karmic ubuntu?
16:55:56 <FauxFaux> Jupix: Go look at the pear module's source?
16:58:21 * andythenorth has far too much grain and wonders about an ethanol plant
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17:01:14 <Jupix> FauxFaux: less of a pita to re-engineer my own code than to learn how someone else's works and then re-engineer that :)
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17:18:40 <mickster04> is there a repo address for the latest version of openttd for karmic ubuntu?
17:19:56 <Zuu> mickster04: the source code is the same for all versions if that is what you are looking fore.
17:20:42 <mickster04> i was looking for the sources.list line that i can add so i can get auto updates that are more current than ubuntu ones
17:21:49 <Zuu> I don't think there is anything like that that OpenTTD has set up. IIRC the only reason why there are special deb files for ubuntu is that there was so many ubuntu users that didn't understand that the deb files at the homepage was for debian.
17:22:22 <Zuu> finger.openttd.org contains version info about what binaries that are available.
17:23:45 <Zuu> Using a curl/wget + sed/grep etc. and openttd -h you can make a shell script that checks if there is a new version and updates. This works best if you just use the linux generic binaries and unzip them in your home dir.
17:32:11 <Eddi|zuHause> what happened to "openttd auto update"?
17:33:13 <Zuu> I wouldn't recommend it on a linux platform. You might get something out of it using wine but I have't tested that.
17:34:26 <Rubidium> mickster04: there is no such repository
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17:46:06 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19562 /trunk/src/lang/ (12 files): (log message trimmed)
17:46:06 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:06 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: catalan - 15 changes by arnau
17:46:06 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: croatian - 12 changes by VoyagerOne
17:46:06 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
17:46:08 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by glx
17:46:08 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
18:01:28 <planetmaker> Rubidium: I forwarded you an answer from the zlib maintainers wrt FS#3729
18:02:10 <planetmaker> bascially they claim that OpenTTD's default compiler flag -Wundef is the cause
18:02:41 <Rubidium> -Wundef doesn't apply to stuff in the "system headers"
18:03:49 <Rubidium> because lzo2's headers are seriously full of undefined macros
18:04:20 <planetmaker> well... I get there a bunch of warnings, too...
18:04:38 <planetmaker> basically about every system type there is not being defined
18:05:02 <Rubidium> so the headers aren't in the "system headers"
18:05:06 <planetmaker> but I attribute(d) that to my non-standard way of getting lzo2 there
18:05:12 <planetmaker> they are in /opt/local/...
18:05:23 <planetmaker> that might be the cause then
18:05:43 <Rubidium> planetmaker: I have no clue (or way to find out exactly) what the "system include" paths are on OS X
18:05:52 <planetmaker> /opt/local should be defined system
18:06:03 <planetmaker> The usual ones actually. Like I have on my suse, too
18:06:20 <planetmaker> But /opt/local might not be a default setting as it's only populated by macports.
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18:07:06 <planetmaker> and that will then also silence the lzo2 stuff. I will look at that :-)
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18:10:46 <Rubidium> and for what it's worth the CF doesn't complain about lzo2
18:14:34 <planetmaker> well, there I didn't wonder as I hand-installed the stuff - I attributed that to me putting things somewhere wrongly. But I couldn't so far be bothered. But with zlib I did the right thing [TM] and wondered
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18:23:55 <erani> really have to mention that it was truly a clever idea to release 1.0.0 on april's fool day :)
18:27:00 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not exactly a new idea...
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18:40:34 <Mazur> Am I correct in perceiving, that it is _not_ possible to build a long tunnel nexrt to shorter one, even if they are one square apart?
18:41:11 <Mazur> I don't see why else it won't try to build.
18:42:15 <PeterT> I believe that's true, yes.
18:42:20 <planetmaker> your assumption is right
18:42:39 <Mazur> Damn, I'll have to figure another solution.
18:42:47 <planetmaker> hm... what a nice warning-less silence with -isystem/opt/local/include :-)
18:44:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Mazur: there needs to be one space inbetween, otherwise it can't put the exit slope
18:44:58 <peter1138> well yes, the tunnel entrances have to be on a straight slope, which cannot be in that case
18:47:27 <glx> planetmaker: your gcc is a macport one ?
18:47:46 <planetmaker> it's the default osx one
18:47:59 <planetmaker> why would I install another one?
18:48:20 <planetmaker> ok, there are reasons, but...?
18:48:27 <glx> . /opt/local is system for macport gcc
18:49:01 <planetmaker> hm, interesting. I never even *thought* about installing gcc via macports
18:50:27 <planetmaker> though that possibly should be changeable for the "usual" gcc, too...
18:51:57 <planetmaker> though I could get gcc4.4 from that...
18:54:30 <Eddi|zuHause> with gcc -v $testfile it should tell you the system include paths
18:54:55 <Eddi|zuHause> where $testfile contains an "#include <somestandardheader>"
18:55:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know where it configures them, though
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18:58:00 <Eddi|zuHause> see, no /opt/...
18:59:12 <Eddi|zuHause> gcc has a "--sysroot=<directory>" parameter, maybe that helps
19:00:18 <planetmaker> hm... I *think* that's rather of use for chroot environments.
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19:14:44 <planetmaker> hg, glx, that was a good hint to look at macports for *gcc*
19:15:09 <planetmaker> It seems it allows to install also cross-compilers for mingw and linux elf binaries out-of-box
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19:18:39 * planetmaker start the joy to download and compile gcc...
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19:26:02 <Eddi|zuHause> see you in three hours :)
19:32:53 <planetmaker> yeah. About that. I did it once on my previous system
19:33:30 <planetmaker> :-) Alas, it's nothing I have to do manually :-P
19:35:28 <Mazur> Found two more old signal paths, caused to more crashes, one while trying to solve a blockage just as a train started to leave, which I overlooked.
19:36:06 <Mazur> Also found some six designs errors, where I'd forgotten to finish what I was building.
19:38:47 * andythenorth start the joy to draw tanker graphics
19:39:46 <peter1138> who wants to buy me a pianoteq license?
19:39:58 <Mazur> Created a dedicated double track from a mine to a power station across half the country. That keeps six coal trains busy.
19:40:28 <Eddi|zuHause> "alas" might be the wrong word in the context...
19:44:41 * peter1138 assumes that's a no
19:50:10 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: let's say it's not a matter of "want" :p
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20:48:05 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19563 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix [FS#3733] (r19558): OnResize wasn't called often enough so scrollbars were in some cases not properly updated causing division by zero
20:52:45 <Mazur> Hm, tricky. I have a horizontal piece of track with a diagonal offshoot, how do I arrange for the horizontal to have priority? Or do I have to redo the track?
20:55:21 <peter1138> neither has priority
20:57:00 <Mazur> It chooses the diagonal every time, though.
20:58:20 <Mazur> Granted, the stations are listed from the other end, so it _is_ not skipping a listed return station.
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21:08:24 <Zuu> Mazur: You can construct prio or even a traffic light if you want to add some control.
21:09:05 <Mazur> Ok, I guess I'll have to read up on that.
21:09:15 <Zuu> I once made a traffic light with dynamic green length based on sensors :-)
21:10:16 <Zuu> But that is usualy not worth it. Prios can be usefull in some situations though.
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21:37:50 <Markk> Does OpenTTD has an repo for Debian/Ubuntu?
21:40:16 <mikk36> console timestamping is still not possible?
21:40:34 <PeterT> set show_date_in_logs on
21:41:11 <Rubidium> depending on which console you mean, yes (if using an appropriately recent version and configure it to do so) or no
21:41:22 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
21:43:26 <PeterT> logs intercepted by stdout
21:44:03 <mikk36> it would be very nice if i could see when someone spoke something
21:45:17 <mikk36> but why is it still not implemented ? :)
21:45:35 <PeterT> you *could* connect the game to IRC and use timestamps in IRC
21:45:55 <mikk36> (05.04.2010 00:28:11) (mikk36) for some reason, irc doesn't work either
21:46:40 <PeterT> AutoPilot isn't the only Game <-> IRC bot
21:47:10 <mikk36> can the work together with autopilot?
21:47:28 <PeterT> They wouldn't work well
21:47:53 <Ammler> the first link is a client
21:48:17 <Ammler> the 2nd is more like ap
22:26:59 <Zuu> You could probably modify ap or other tool to add timestamps to the output. I mean, if ap work like I would guess it reads the output from OpenTTD and then outputs it to the terminal so it could add a timestamp in the terminal if it wishes to.
22:27:10 <Zuu> No need to go over an IRC bridge for that.
22:37:14 <Rubidium> Zuu: stdout output can get timestamps if you enable that; the in-game console doesn't
22:37:16 <xtort-> congrats on the 1.0 release! i'm playing it right now, and i love it
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continue to next day ⏵
