IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-03-22
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08:06:51 <peter1138> hdb: ide_cd_check_ireason: wrong transfer direction!
08:07:00 <peter1138> don't think i've ever seen that one before :s
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08:42:17 <Eddi|zuHause> turn the drive around!
08:50:47 <__ln__> tell the bits to drive on the right-hand side
09:06:14 <peter1138> how do i tell "whatever" to ignore the a laptop's internal resolution?
09:06:34 <peter1138> trying to use the external display, but things are limited to the laptop display :s
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09:16:03 <blathijs> peter1138: Connect the external display when you start X?
09:16:25 <peter1138> it is, if it's not i get nothing on the external display at all
09:26:51 <peter1138> to be exact, the extra workspace is usable, but gnome-panels are fixed in space based on the laptop display, and maximise maximises to the laptop display too
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09:44:32 * andythenorth wonders how to knock out a cargo
09:45:30 <andythenorth> the normal 'only in this and that climate' business doesn't work :|
09:47:42 <Eddi|zuHause> with action 7/9?
09:47:54 <Eddi|zuHause> or more evil: with action 6?
09:48:30 <andythenorth> that would work, but it doesn't disable the default cargo.
09:48:40 <andythenorth> guess I need to shift cargo IDs around :o
09:54:17 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i have no idea how you disable an original cargo
09:55:14 <andythenorth> nvm I'll move cargo IDs
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10:48:04 <PeterT> andythenorth: I've coded the class 20
10:48:11 <PeterT> with one property defined
10:48:21 <PeterT> and it replaces the most basic train
10:49:27 * andythenorth has really quite broken something
10:50:18 <PeterT> andythenorth: this is what I've done with action0
10:50:19 <PeterT> 2 * 7 00 00 \b1 01 01 // Action 0
10:51:09 <andythenorth> OTTD blows up when I try to get to the 'fund industry' window
10:53:47 <andythenorth> my guess is a broken industry fund window cb
10:54:55 <andythenorth> anyone got any other ideas, before I play a long game of 'turn industry off, build grf, test, repeat until crash'
10:59:50 <andythenorth> hmm, iterating over list halves will find the naughty industry faster
11:03:55 * andythenorth suspects the bakery
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11:07:02 <Bahamamama> is anyone here, who can help me with my dedicated server? i don't know if its running correctly. i can connect. but no one connects to it. so i don't know if it's up :-(
11:11:23 <Ammler> Bahamamama: servers.openttd.org
11:11:48 <Ammler> there you see, if advertising works
11:12:16 <Bahamamama> i think i checked it.. but i look it up again
11:13:43 <Ammler> yes, and now you expect other joining your server?
11:14:38 <Bahamamama> i know that it is absolutly selfish. but for testing. yes
11:15:59 <Bahamamama> the problem for me right now is, that nobody i know is online who can test it for me :-(
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11:16:11 <Yexo> Bahamamama: it works fine
11:16:22 <Bahamamama> yes. thank u very much!°
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12:34:48 <OwenS> Hmm, I may have spotted a bug. It's a pretty minor one, but it's still a bug
12:35:26 <OwenS> order_gui.cpp, ~Line 81, After "/* Unload and transfer do not work together. */", there are only 4 strings but should be 5
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12:38:56 <OwenS> I presume that causes it to draw a different invalid string?
12:40:09 <Rubidium> it won't draw the string
12:40:29 <Rubidium> if it's INVALID_STRING_ID is will definitely crash, with 0 it will be 'just' a GUI glitch
12:40:55 <OwenS> ...Since it's "drawn" 4 invalid strings already, it should then theoretically have already crashed :p
12:41:20 <Rubidium> no, it doesn't draw those strings
12:41:43 <Rubidium> they are there only to keep the rest of the 'data' easily accessible
12:42:09 <OwenS> I was refering to in the unlikely condition it ended up in that state
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12:43:10 <Rubidium> no, it might not have drawn the other 4 strings
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12:46:40 <peter1138> hurr, openttd on a 50" telly at 1920x1080 is ... usable
12:57:57 * andythenorth contemplates drawing a quarry
12:58:05 <andythenorth> brrrrrrrrhhhhhhh
13:13:18 <__ln__> lots of people with 3-letter nicks
13:13:59 <glx> said the one who used to have a 2-letter nick ;)
13:15:28 <Rubidium> glx: it's still a 2 letter nick
13:21:47 <OwenS> Hmm... Is there any way to display a piece of text on a dropdown which isn't in the list?
13:22:34 <OwenS> It works like I'd hoped :-)
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13:44:18 <andythenorth> I've got to draw a quarry
13:46:06 <OwenS> Well, you can now select program instructions, and the tool buttons are dummied
13:53:34 * andythenorth ponders drawing 17 different quarry boundary tiles which all line up nicely for different terrain
13:54:10 * OwenS is glad he doesn't do graphics
13:54:43 <andythenorth> Oblique Strategies tells me: "water" "courage" and "what is the simplest solution?"
13:54:47 <andythenorth> dunno what to make of that :)
13:55:17 <Rubidium> andythenorth: I guess water is the simplest solution
13:55:52 <andythenorth> Rubidium: I have a nice dredger for getting gravel out of water
13:56:04 <andythenorth> but it looks fricking stupid with a helicopter landing on it :D
13:56:12 * andythenorth waits for new airports
13:57:18 <andythenorth> "Do we need holes?"
13:59:34 <andythenorth> well do we need holes?
14:18:14 <peter1138> hmm, what shall i use to make some uptime charts
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14:27:42 <andythenorth> brrrr brrrr brrrrr
14:27:59 <peter1138> i have the data going back a few years
14:28:21 <peter1138> but it's in the form of "datetime up|down"
14:29:09 * andythenorth needs to stop avoiding the pixels
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14:43:42 <peter1138> openoffice doesn't recognise the text data as a date :(
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14:53:48 <andythenorth> fuck a doodle doo
14:54:51 * andythenorth learns a lesson about string codes
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15:08:38 * andythenorth takes the easy way out on a quarry
15:10:39 <andythenorth> recoloured the sand pit I've already drawn
15:10:48 <andythenorth> not really good enough, but good enough
15:11:11 * andythenorth closes a FIRS milestone
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15:20:53 <peter1138> hmm, anyone uses linux-vserver, with debian?
15:21:02 <peter1138> my log files don't get rotated :s
15:22:25 <peter1138> oh... cron isn't started :s
15:23:32 <peter1138> silly debian vserver set up scripts, i guess
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15:30:03 <peter1138> oh, also, silly rsyslog set up
15:30:15 <peter1138> with sysklog did, it would automatically get the list of files to rotate
15:30:18 <peter1138> not so with rsyslog :s
15:32:16 <Noldo> peter1138: have you played with yacc/bison?
15:33:16 <OwenS> I've come to the conclusion you're better of hand coding your grammar :p
15:33:19 <Noldo> do you know if anyone in the NewGRF community has made a parser with it?
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15:37:57 <andythenorth> some FIRS industries have the 'can be exploded by military helicopter' flag :D
15:38:04 <andythenorth> don't blame me, blame FooBar
15:52:54 <OwenS> OK... How do I tell my instruction windows that a change has occured?
15:55:13 <andythenorth> when should Aluminium become available as a cargo chain?
15:55:34 <andythenorth> IRL any time after 1900 would be appropriate
15:55:54 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause ^^ you normally have a suggestion on these questions :)
15:56:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not particularly informed about aluminium
15:57:13 <Eddi|zuHause> something that makes sense regarding gameplay... people don't often start before 1920
15:57:58 <Belugas> # hoooo hooo hooooo hoooo...
15:58:09 <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: MarkDirty()?
15:58:36 <Eddi|zuHause> or Invalidate? or something?
15:58:47 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: Thats how a window marks itself for a redraw. What I want to do is, in a command handler, say "The instructions of <this> signal are dirty. Notify the window with id <id>"
15:58:58 <OwenS> It's the getting the window which is the difficult bit :p
15:58:59 <Rubidium> andythenorth: the very credible wikipedia ofcourse
15:59:22 <Rubidium> oh, maybe even 1886 :)
15:59:23 <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: GetWindowById()->MarkDirty()?
15:59:30 <Belugas> mmh... why is it i don't have all my songs with me?? I NEED BOWIE!
15:59:31 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: Aah! That sounds about right
15:59:39 <Rubidium> MakeWindowDirtyById or something like it
16:00:15 <OwenS> void InvalidateWindowData(WindowClass cls, WindowNumber number, int data = 0) is what I wanted
16:01:36 <OwenS> Hmm... I'm gonna have to go through the game with a fine toothed comb to find where signals can be removed from tiles
16:02:40 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: And demolish. And remove track. And...
16:03:17 <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: might make sense to refactor that to one place?
16:03:48 <OwenS> Probably to an "CheckRemoveSignals" function or such
16:04:37 <OwenS> OK, and we can now add instructions :-)
16:04:46 <andythenorth> bakery intro date...1850?
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16:06:45 <Jolteon> Bakerys have been around since the Roman times.
16:07:07 <Jolteon> They found a load of bread in the remains on Pompeii, from 79 AD
16:07:20 <Jolteon> Whenever Vesuvious wrecked the joint.
16:08:03 <andythenorth> brewery....1820?
16:08:42 <Jolteon> Brewerys have been around since Tudor time at least
16:10:12 <andythenorth> and does it really matter?
16:10:42 <andythenorth> should I care if graphics aren't 'old' enough
16:10:52 <andythenorth> town buildings have the same problem
16:11:21 <Eddi|zuHause> no. possibly prepare the code for different building styles, if you can get the date when an industry was built
16:11:34 <peter1138> ^ they look like that
16:11:50 <Eddi|zuHause> if you have too much time, you can add the graphics for that later
16:12:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i think breweries should be one of the first industries available
16:12:22 <andythenorth> peter1138: how old is that one?
16:12:34 <andythenorth> brewery could kick in around 1700?
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16:13:13 <andythenorth> screw it, I'll do it for 1640
16:13:16 <andythenorth> seems like a nice date
16:15:37 <andythenorth> anyone want to bid on the furniture factory date?
16:15:43 <andythenorth> I reckon about 1850
16:18:08 <Eddi|zuHause> history of industrialisation... i'm really not an expert in that
16:18:24 <andythenorth> I guess the only two things that matter are:
16:18:35 <andythenorth> - whether the graphics look stupid (too modern)
16:18:47 <Singaporekid> "The first furniture factory employing more than ten people was begun by Abraham. & Hepburn (later Campbell & Abraham) in 1867."
16:18:56 <andythenorth> Singaporekid: interesting
16:19:24 <andythenorth> but I need to have a complete lumber chain
16:21:02 <Eddi|zuHause> early houses should accept wood, later houses should accept coal
16:21:27 <andythenorth> yup, they should, but I'm steering clear
16:21:34 <andythenorth> I don't want to get into coding houses as well
16:22:12 <Eddi|zuHause> and like i said before: pre-industrial "industries" should be very small but many
16:22:24 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that's the plan
16:22:48 <SpComb^> horsecarts transporting small quantities?
16:22:48 <Eddi|zuHause> so you make a 1x1 carpenter's shop or something
16:22:53 <SpComb^> there might be some sense to that
16:23:11 <andythenorth> the thinking was to limit their production somehow as well
16:24:02 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: maybe if you take eGRVTS as base, limit it to one carriageload per production step?
16:24:18 * andythenorth wonders if it's necessary to limit production at all
16:24:32 <andythenorth> the available vehicles offer a sort of limit anyway
16:28:33 <andythenorth> omg, we could do a whole industry set just for 'Dairy'
16:30:01 <Eddi|zuHause> toyland-replacement "cheeseland" maybe :)
16:30:34 * andythenorth harbours a secret plan for an entire 'logging' chain though
16:32:15 <OwenS> andythenorth: You have an hatred for forrests yes?
16:32:25 <andythenorth> I just like logging machinery
16:33:24 <OwenS> It does occur to me that in the default industries you collect grain and cattle from farms, but not milk.. kinda odd
16:36:04 <andythenorth> I have a fix for that :)
16:36:39 <andythenorth> but you don't get the default industries :o
16:37:25 <OwenS> Hmm... Where should I put the program signal buton? I feels wrong to have a row with an extra buton...
16:38:15 <OwenS> Sacro: I'm implementing a programmable signals patch
16:40:53 <OwenS> Next version is *really* close
16:42:29 <OwenS> Sacro: Thats all it does for now
16:42:37 <OwenS> The backend is there, but not the frontend
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17:16:14 <andythenorth> steel mill intro date?
17:16:23 <andythenorth> ach seems about right
17:18:39 <OwenS> Ok, I'm adding my signal to the buffer (Via AddTrackToSignalBuffer), I presume I then have to call UpdateSignalsInBuffer()? (Testing without... nothing happens anyway) Or am I supposed to do something else?
17:23:05 <OwenS> It certainly seems to work..
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17:43:58 <andythenorth> paper mills are surprisingly old :o
17:55:07 <Hirundo> OwenS: If you plan to update multiple signals of the same owner, Add(Track|Side)ToSignalBuffer followed by UpdateSignalsInBuffer is the best way to go.
17:55:52 <OwenS> Hirundo: OK. I was just checking that I wasn't calling a function I shouldn't.
17:56:07 <Hirundo> For updating a single signal, SetSignalsOnBothDir and some_other_function are available
18:01:59 <andythenorth> if industries have start dates, does the whole chain need to complete at once?
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18:43:49 * andythenorth wonders how many nested cpp templates is too many?
18:45:58 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19501 /trunk/src/lang/ (danish.txt romanian.txt):
18:45:58 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:58 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: danish - 5 changes by silentStatic
18:45:58 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: greek - 4 changes by
18:45:58 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 2 changes by
18:46:00 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: romanian - 3 changes by kkmic
18:56:38 <Rubidium> andythenorth: I'd say infinite, but there's infinitely more possibilities beyond that
18:57:19 <andythenorth> and for readability and understanding the code?
18:57:40 <Wolf01> oh, I thought you were talking about human stupidity
18:58:07 <Rubidium> hi Wolf01, lets preemptively bury you :)
19:00:02 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: WT3 is again in its commiting no-one's stuff state :( (for two languages)
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19:12:42 <andythenorth> var 24 years since 0 (long format)
19:12:47 <andythenorth> how do I knock 1 year off?
19:12:55 <andythenorth> 24 20 \dxFFFFFFFF //get current date
19:12:55 <andythenorth> \2- 1A 00 \d01 //subtract 1
19:13:02 <andythenorth> doesn't seem to do it
19:13:59 <andythenorth> oh....maths fail :o
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19:54:00 <OwenS> Hehe, someone has already downloaded
19:59:03 * andythenorth blew up ottd horribly
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21:16:13 <OwenS> Hmm... This ones a bit theoretical at the moment, as I'm not implementing it yet... But when I give ProgSigs the ability to look at arbritrary signals, should I limit it to onlly signals from the same company?
21:20:54 <andythenorth> 3 tickets before FIRS release 0.1 is done :o
21:21:00 <andythenorth> unless there are new bugs :P
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21:34:24 <Rubidium> yeah right... not gonna happen any time soon
21:38:15 <devilsadvocate> imo, that sounds like the backstory to a really bad scifi movie
22:00:29 <Wizzleby> wrt high speed rail china->europe: nice idea, but seriously, going through 17 different countries has got to be a serious political crapstorm waiting to happen, and seems unlikely to pull off
22:01:04 <OwenS> I notice that China are paying for it. That makes the whole thing suddenly become a lot cheaper, exp. when you consider the economic benefits
22:02:38 <OwenS> Also, it makes negotiations simpler: it shows China want it, and they want it pretty badly
22:02:44 <Rubidium> Wizzleby: here they have 30 years of "fighting" before they can lay a road; it's not "in three weeks this valley will be flooded, bugger of to this new town we constructed for you"
22:03:01 <Wizzleby> yeah, them paying for it certainly removes *one* big obstacle. That doesn't account for general political stubbornness though
22:03:41 <OwenS> Stubbornness vs the opposition going "China offered to build a free high speed rail line and you refused WHY?!"
22:04:06 <Wizzleby> Rubidium: yeah, many places constructing a new road is not popular. In the USA, they had trouble building their proposed highway system which would run from mexico to canada because some states refused to take it
22:04:39 <Wizzleby> OwenS: look at the situation of Oklahoma and the Trans-texas corridor, or whatever that leg of the highway was to be called
22:04:51 <OwenS> They should feel lucky. The UK hasn't built a new motorway in ~15 years. And the M6 toll doesn't count because nobody uses it
22:05:13 <Wizzleby> very similar situation, oklahoma would not have had to pay for it, but they didn't want it running through their state
22:06:07 <Wizzleby> OwenS: also, remember politics doesn't always do what is best for the region :)
22:06:22 <OwenS> HSR lines are more attractive (Read: more green) than roads, and also it's largely running through less developed countries where there is less NIMBYism
22:06:24 <Wizzleby> just cause its a benefit or a good idea doesn't mean it gets passed
22:06:58 <Wizzleby> well, I'm not disagreeing with you on the benefits of HSR certainly :)
22:07:49 <Rubidium> OwenS: rail is expensive (and by self-reinforcement it stays expensive)
22:08:17 <Rubidium> just look at the rail projects here... nobody seems to want them, they cost a huge sum of money and are barely used
22:08:27 <OwenS> Rubidium: Except when China is footing the bill for you :p
22:09:06 <Wizzleby> I bet some places would take issue simply because its china ;)
22:09:21 <Wizzleby> politics are a mess after all
22:10:03 <Rubidium> OwenS: they made a cargo rail line to Germany with a capacity of 10 trains an hour per direction... if 10 trains a day use it, it's busy. Even more of them use the old route because that's cheaper.
22:11:56 <Rubidium> even then, how much will a ticket China-Europe cost?
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22:19:10 <Rubidium> because a train ticket Tokyo-Hakata (Shinkansen) costs about twice of what I paid for the airplane and with transit times still the Shinkansen is an hour longer
22:19:20 <Rubidium> which is over a distance of 1200 km
22:19:50 <JakeGrimshaw> the Guess the Station picture looks annoyingly familiar :@
22:20:22 <Rubidium> now if you're talking about China-Europe the train prices will arguably be relatively even higher than an airplane
22:21:29 <Rubidium> ofcourse you can use the "it's greener principle", but then... having the maglev train go even slower is arguably greener too and then you get into a "time vs money vs greenness" debate
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22:22:32 <OwenS> I suppose one of the biggest differences is that jet fuel's tax is so low...
22:22:56 * andythenorth wishes there was a way to define a value (such as 1881) and have the CPP render that as \d1881
22:23:22 <Rubidium> template parameters?
22:23:35 <Ammler> wait for Hirundo/Yexo tools :-)
22:23:43 <Rubidium> #define FOO(a) \d##a## ?
22:24:14 <OwenS> Probably need to go through a CONCAT indirection or two knowing CPP
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22:24:28 <andythenorth> I've tried before, so has DJ_Nekkid I think
22:25:00 <andythenorth> I end up defining the dword (define '\d1881') then writing that onto the text stack later
22:25:01 <OwenS> andythenorth: #define FOO(a) CONCAT(\d, a) #define CONCAT(_x, _y) CONCAT2(_x, _y) #define CONCAT2(_x, _y) _x##_y
22:25:22 <andythenorth> OwenS: :) looks about as bad as just using the text stack
22:25:41 <OwenS> Those concat macros come in useful elsewhere as well
22:26:29 <OwenS> I'd say "You should be using a proper language" but the only one of those anyone has is M4, and M4 is awful
22:27:12 <Ammler> in "our" case, python is valid too
22:27:22 <andythenorth> language rarely matters that much
22:27:29 <andythenorth> as long as it's not perl :P
22:28:07 <Ammler> Terken should give some time to answer ;-)
22:28:33 <PeterT> he just wants to get to his damn bed
22:28:39 <Ammler> andythenorth: did you see the scripts from yexo and Hirundo?
22:29:06 <andythenorth> nfo is simply not my biggest problem
22:29:13 <andythenorth> I screw up in every language I use
22:29:20 <Yexo> Ammler: not yet, Hirundo has (as far as I know) only written a text document
22:29:24 <Yexo> and my work is far from complete
22:29:30 <andythenorth> I'll still spend time hunting my own errors in python or whatever
22:29:39 <Rubidium> Ammler: it's totally unuseable if you want to release something "soon"
22:29:45 <Ammler> Yexo: I didn't follow proper, just read a bit here...
22:30:55 <Rubidium> Ammler: it's as useful as m4nfo
22:31:29 <Hirundo> Yexo: I have some flex/bison stuff lying around, but that's nothing to get really exited about
22:31:56 <Hirundo> I think using python is a better idea
22:32:01 <OwenS> Hirundo: Esp. since you'd be better off with re2c + handocded parser ;-)
22:32:04 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: has also once posted something :-)
22:32:20 <Eddi|zuHause> that was a long time ago...
22:33:06 <Yexo> Hirundo: one of the problems I encountered: how to handle parameter usage in a varaction2 expression?
22:33:15 <Ammler> well, anyway, cpp did reach the limits...
22:33:35 <Ammler> the more we use it, the uglier the code
22:33:38 <Hirundo> Yexo: There is a fundamental choice to be made there
22:33:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i never got as far as figuring out varaction 2 support...
22:33:40 <Yexo> should it use the value of the parameter as it was at the moment the varaction2 is defined or at the time it's executed?
22:34:00 <Hirundo> Action6 or variable 7F
22:34:54 <Ammler> action6 could mostly be done with lots of action7
22:35:09 <Eddi|zuHause> that was not the question
22:35:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: if you want to use action 7, you have to know all possible values
22:36:16 <Eddi|zuHause> also, you can't skip an action 2 with an action 7/9
22:36:20 <Hirundo> Action7 would , in the worst case, need far more memory than your pc has to offer, to handle every case
22:38:57 <Hirundo> Other languages show examples of both
22:39:30 <Ammler> don't see, how that could be 4
22:39:46 <PeterT> what does "dbg: [misc] String too long for destination buffer" mean?
22:39:53 <Hirundo> At the time the action2 is run, the value is 4
22:39:56 <PeterT> what is the destination buffer, exactly?
22:40:19 <Yexo> Ammler: if the switch (=action2) uses var 7F, then in nfo the value would be 4
22:40:42 * andythenorth closes a ticket by backlogging it
22:40:54 <Hirundo> PeterT: What version are you using?
22:41:12 <PeterT> Hirundo: It is patched with CityBuilder, if that matters
22:41:49 <Hirundo> PeterT: Yes, that might matter a lot.
22:42:18 <PeterT> what if it was with a normal version, unpatched?
22:42:26 <PeterT> Hirundo: what would it mean?
22:43:03 <Yexo> that some string was too long
22:43:38 <PeterT> since the server sends private messages about the city info
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22:45:38 <Ammler> well, that looks like I have no idea about VarAction2 :-)
22:45:48 <Hirundo> Actino6 may provide more power to the user, since he has the freedom to choose what he wants
22:46:02 <Hirundo> On the other hand, it may provide even more rope to hang himself with
22:46:03 <Ammler> don't see why you should like to use value of a variable you define _after_
22:47:21 <Ammler> sounds like you define a function to me...
22:48:41 <Yexo> yes, action6 feels more intuitive
22:49:31 <Hirundo> A bit like lexical closures in other languages
22:52:05 <Ammler> oh, I didn't push my final grf...
22:58:26 <Yexo> Ammler: it looks like the comments don't match the nfo code
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23:04:55 <Ammler> Yexo: I pushed the final version, requery
23:05:20 <Ammler> comments are still not valid :-/
23:06:11 <Ammler> I am also not able to get Tropic/Arctic working...
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