IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-03-07
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00:02:50 <Zuu> Yexo: Do you think the airport bug could show an assert in ai_gui.cpp? I guess I better upload the crash report anyways.
00:04:03 <Yexo> an assert in ai_ugi.cpp? not sure about that
00:04:09 <Yexo> if you have a crash.cmp please upload it
00:05:27 <impactor> Well, so far this round of OpenTTD is going rather well. It looks like I might have mastered the use of one-way signals :D
00:07:42 <Yexo> Zuu: is there an easy way to reproduce your crash?
00:08:37 <Zuu> For some reason clicking on "Add this task" doesn't do anything.
00:09:01 <Zuu> Have I attached to much maybe?
00:09:29 <Rubidium> if you're uploading a 3+MB savegame it might not react instantly
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00:13:05 <Yexo> Zuu: that is RC1, so it can't have anything to do with the airport chanegs
00:13:37 <Yexo> why does the gamelog only say 1.0.0-RC1?
00:13:52 <Zuu> Hmm, crash.sav is zero byte so that is maybe why FS couldn't upload it.
00:13:53 <Rubidium> crashing while loading savegame?
00:14:35 <Yexo> Rubidium: no, since it's an assertion in ai_gui.cpp which cannot be triggered while loading the savegame
00:14:43 <Zuu> If you use gamelog on the savegame then you'll see what the person who uploaded the savegame as a report on tt-forums used not me.
00:15:26 <Rubidium> Yexo: the screenshot isn't the right one either; don't see an AI window
00:15:57 <Yexo> Zuu: can you also upload this clueless_fail.sav ?
00:16:38 <Zuu> I indended to upload it but removed it as FS didn't want to add my task.
00:18:03 <Zuu> I just tried to load the savegame and there was of course no crash :-(
00:19:26 <Zuu> I did many repeted loadings of clueless_fail.sav with some changes to the nut files in between each load. Then suddenly it asserted on one load.
00:20:15 <Zuu> I should also say that it might be that I did not have the AIDebug window open when I clicked to load the savegame.
00:22:30 <Rubidium> Yexo: how 'soon' does FS#3665 autosave5 crash for you? (I guess it's a stl issue with MSVC implementation)
00:22:41 <Fuco> When i start openttd -D, is it possible to redirect output in the ottd window to startard output? (or is that stdout?)
00:22:55 <Yexo> so +- 7 days after loading the savegame
00:23:16 <Zuu> Fuco: Yes, if you transform openttd.exe to a console application.
00:23:41 <Yexo> might have to do with msvc, but maybe not
00:23:49 <Yexo> I'm not sure deleting an entry works ok
00:23:54 <Rubidium> Yexo: has been 8 march 3 times already
00:23:55 <Zuu> There is an utility program somewhere which changes one bit somewhere in the excutable to make that change.
00:24:02 <Yexo> but I'll take a look at that tomorrow
00:24:19 <Yexo> coding after drinking alcohol is not a good idea :p
00:25:26 <Zuu> Doesn't sound way to good condition for coding. :-)
00:27:03 <Rubidium> Zuu: being 'on' tamiflu is probably much worse w.r.t. coding quality
00:30:12 <Zuu> Fuco: If you don't find out how to convert the binary an other option is to compile your own binary and tell the build system to make a console application or just hack in writing to a file in the log function.
00:31:02 <Fuco> well, I'm not feeling like compiling it ;( especially not under windows :D
00:32:05 <impactor> Guh, compiling under windows.
00:32:16 <Rubidium> glx once made a simple tool to convert a binary to a console binary; don't know where it exactly is
00:33:51 <Ammler> tt-forums Autopilot thread
00:34:13 <Ammler> wiki.openttdcoop.org/Autopilot
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01:00:27 <OwenS> orudge: Can't the nightly database backup be backgrounded? >_<
01:01:49 <impactor> It doesn't cost money to keep a train in a depot, right?
01:03:14 * Ammler wonders if 2am really is the lowest usage time :-)
01:03:28 <OwenS> I'd say it's probably ~4am :p
01:04:23 * roboboy adds a recomended settings section to his OpenTTD DOS guide
01:04:59 <OwenS> That reminds me to add Django's TransactionMiddleware to his apps
01:08:20 <roboboy> feck Autosave on a blank 2048X2048 map on a cleron is so slow
01:08:43 <OwenS> Ammler: No, TrueBrain was mentioning it earlier. I presume that DOS is a too short search string
01:09:07 <Ammler> well, OpenTTD is quite redundant in that wiki :-P
01:10:29 <roboboy> I didn't know of a suitable article to link to it from
01:10:50 <Yexo> roboboy: ~\OpenTTD\data\ <- is that a valid path on dos? if not, just change it to C:\OpenTTD\data\ or so
01:10:58 * roboboy pondees just rebooting his DOS machine
01:11:26 * OwenS really ought to try a build on his craptop
01:12:00 <PeterT> I added DOS to wiki/OS
01:12:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember ~ meaning anything in DOS
01:12:39 <OwenS> roboboy: Your machine doesn't have 2048kb of RAM ;-)
01:12:43 <Eddi|zuHause> shouldn't you simply "configure --personal-dir=C:\OpenTTD" or something?
01:12:50 <OwenS> (And take 5 seconds to check it!)
01:13:09 <PeterT> roboboy: The requested URL /openttd/openttd-r19248-DOS.zip was not found on this server.
01:13:20 <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: 2MB will have trouble even getting the binary into memory
01:13:50 <Eddi|zuHause> there might be ways to get virtual memory in DOS, though
01:13:56 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: And then the 386-SX/20 processor will struggle running it ;-)
01:14:09 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: On a irreplacable hard drive?
01:14:19 <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: with < 10 vehicles, that shouldn't be a problem :)
01:15:14 <OwenS> (2.5" ST-506 HDs are getting *very* rare!)
01:15:16 <Eddi|zuHause> TT with few vehicles ran fine with 4MB RAM and 25MHz
01:15:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think it ran with 2MB
01:16:12 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, i'm pretty sure it didn't...
01:16:16 * roboboy wonders where to upload the build he uses
01:16:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: repair it...
01:17:01 <OwenS> I presume there must be a way to make CWSDPMI support swapping though
01:17:34 <OwenS> (Incidentally, isn't it weird how small a world it is? CWSDPMI was written by the same guy who reverse engineered the Total Annihilation HPI formats)
01:18:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no clue what either of these are...
01:18:46 <OwenS> CWSDPMI = Dos Protected Mode Interface provider commonly used with DJGPP
01:18:46 <OwenS> Total Annihilation = Best RTS game ever made :P
01:18:57 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: where would you link Linux to?
01:19:01 <roboboy> well I do not recomend anyone run a 2048X2048 map under DOS on an old pc
01:19:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i have not actually read the page...
01:19:44 <SmatZ> OwenS: what DPMI version does CWSDPMI provide?
01:20:01 <OwenS> SmatZ: 0.9. If you want 1.0, use HDPMI
01:20:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: what should be on there? links to download locations for openttd?
01:20:24 <Ammler> currently it links to the sourceforge files
01:20:26 <OwenS> But NTVDM, DOSBOX and DOSEMU only provide 0.9, so it's a bit moot :p
01:20:29 <SmatZ> hmm was 1.0 ever widespread?
01:20:48 <Ammler> maybe just openttd.org/download
01:20:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: link it to www.openttd.org/download-stable?
01:21:27 <Eddi|zuHause> and also say many distributions have it in their repository
01:22:13 <SmatZ> I remember I was playing with DPMI and was disappointed my DPMI manager (whatever it was) supports just 0.9
01:22:16 <Ammler> hmm, what happens, if a windows user clicks it?
01:22:18 <SmatZ> but it was long time ago :-/
01:22:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: and i would reorder the page
01:22:31 <OwenS> SmatZ: HDPMI even includes services to run simple Windows programs...
01:22:34 <Eddi|zuHause> first the official ports
01:22:39 <Eddi|zuHause> then the inofficial ports
01:23:03 <Ammler> I need to force linux in that case
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01:24:00 <Ammler> else might be better link to binaries.openttd.org
01:24:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: no, don't do that...
01:25:17 <Ammler> TrueBrain: is it possible to force linux download on openttd.org/download-stable ?
01:26:31 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: the unofficial have a bold [*]
01:26:39 <Ammler> he, should be added to Mac
01:26:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: yes, but that * is bad...
01:27:04 <Eddi|zuHause> it looks ugly, it's not immediately clear what it means...
01:27:47 <Ammler> and current stable has of course still official mac support
01:28:27 <Ammler> what happen to all that differnt oses
01:28:36 <Ammler> currently only linux and windows is supported?
01:29:36 <Ammler> no *BSDs, no solaris, no OS/2 anymore ;-)
01:29:57 <roboboy> how do I embed an image in an article on the wiki?
01:32:06 <Ammler> but maybe you need to upload it
01:32:16 <Ammler> not every wiki support external links
01:32:54 * roboboy wonders where the best place in his guide is for a screenshot of DOS OpenTTD exiting as proof
01:33:02 <Eddi|zuHause> linking external images is a bad idea anyway
01:33:21 <Ammler> then it is [[Image:File.png|alt text]] as explained on the upload page ;-)
01:34:54 <PeterT> Also, that image still doesn't prove that it was run on DOS
01:35:10 <PeterT> I could edit the STR and recompile, then have "an exit to dos"
01:36:33 <fjb> Btw., OpenTTD runs flawless on FreeBSD.
01:36:57 <OwenS> Though it refuses to compile with SunCC
01:37:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: you confuse "supported" with "binaries being provided"
01:39:16 <Ammler> yes, no binaries = no support
01:39:31 <Eddi|zuHause> that is not entirely true...
01:40:00 <Eddi|zuHause> "supported" means "we solve problems that occur on these systems"
01:40:15 <Eddi|zuHause> along with a "it generally works"
01:40:57 <fjb> Why do I need binaries when ./configure; gmake does all I need?
01:41:00 <Eddi|zuHause> "providing binaries" is a step beyond that...
01:42:25 * roboboy ponders seriously trying to get DJGPP working and compiling OpenTTD on DOS
01:43:20 <PeterT> I think you've said "DOS" 100% out of your last 10 /me's
01:45:53 <roboboy> I shall try to reduce that
01:47:14 * fjb can not imagine why anybody is that fond of DOS.
01:48:37 <OwenS> "CC: Fatal error in ld: Segmentation Fault (core dumped)" <-- Thats not good!
01:48:41 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, DDOS is way better!!
01:49:04 <U1> Eddi|zuHause: not if you wanna run ottd
01:51:52 <OwenS> U1: Hmm, but DRDOS would be :
01:54:05 <U1> not sure it would even run on that :P
01:56:02 * OwenS wonders why autoconf checks for headers like "linux/ata.h" when uname returns "SunOS" :P
01:58:39 <Eddi|zuHause> autoconf per definiton checks lots of unnecessary things...
01:58:54 <OwenS> True. Everyone should use CMake :p
01:59:22 <OwenS> (And nothing's more unnecessary than recursive autoconfs *cough GCC*)
02:03:21 <DaleStan> * fjb can not imagine why anybody is that fond of DOS. <-- Because it doesn't do anything, and hence permits a properly written application to run far faster than on any other OS^H^Hprogram loader.
02:04:31 <OwenS> DaleStan: In practice, you'll find PIO makes everything much slower than under any other OS ;-)
02:04:33 <fjb> DaleStan: We can agree that DOS is not really an OS.
02:05:33 <fjb> And things may run fast as long an they are happy with 640K.
02:07:06 <DaleStan> Well, in that case, a "properly written application" obviously doesn't use PIO :p
02:07:55 <OwenS> DaleStan: So your app now incorporates PCI & SATA drivers to get DMA :P
02:08:06 <OwenS> And your app becomes it's own OS
02:09:04 <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: under DOS it was common practice that every program came with its own drivers
02:09:23 <fjb> They have to anyway when they need more than 640k. Using RAM above that in real mode is dead slow.
02:09:25 <Eddi|zuHause> typically sound card and graphics card drivers for games
02:09:28 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: I'm aware. I'm glad we don't do that any more
02:09:51 <OwenS> fjb: Not necessarily. If you switch to unreal mode you can keep using DOS and the BIOS since they don't trample %fs and %gs
02:10:24 <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: yes, but now you have abstraction layers that generally make it slower than hand optimised drivers to your programs needs
02:11:14 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: I think the bigger cause is privilege separation, i.e, firefox-shouldn't-be-able-to-hang-my-PC-overhead
02:11:15 <fjb> Hand optimized code for modern CPUs...
02:11:23 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: why would DOS programs need to be run in real mode?
02:11:45 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: Because DOS runs in real mode. If you run in protected mode, you can't use DOS, and ergo DOS was just your bootloader ;-)
02:11:56 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: DOS is 16bit only.
02:12:00 <OwenS> (OK, you could switch back to real mode to call DOS *shudder*)
02:12:25 <fjb> Switching between modes is slow again.
02:12:38 <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: but we already established that there's nothing in DOS that is worth calling :p
02:12:57 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: then it's become a bare metal app ;-)
02:13:14 <OwenS> fjb: You could get fancy and use SVM/VT and run DOS in a virtual machine for fast switches :p
02:13:18 <fjb> So every application has to provide its own OS, as I stated above.
02:15:00 <Eddi|zuHause> so why was DOS never ported to protected mode?
02:15:24 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: Because protected mode brings protection with it ;-)
02:15:29 <OwenS> Also: Nobdody wanted it :p
02:26:57 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... what i learned from the 2.0 thread is that there is currently no visionary milestone that warrants it being 2.0
02:27:20 <Eddi|zuHause> unless you count "make it 3D" which nobody even wants to do...
02:29:20 <fjb> Who cares about version numbers?
02:30:06 <Eddi|zuHause> do you realize how much the download count increased since there is a 1 before the dot?
02:30:47 <Eddi|zuHause> and that is not even 1.0.0 final
02:35:26 <fjb> It has easy support fop OpenGFX etc. out of the box.
02:42:37 <impactor> If I have a factory supplying goods to a city, and then the city stops accepting goods. How do I get the factory to stop thinking that I am taking goods from it?
02:43:39 <impactor> So my rating for picking up goods will drop to 0?
02:43:49 <impactor> Or do I need to find someplace else to take them?
02:44:13 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, either of these ;)
02:45:00 <impactor> I guess the next city I start delivering goods to is going to get a bunch :P
02:45:56 <Eddi|zuHause> you can also have the city fund new office buildings
02:46:53 <Eddi|zuHause> click on the town name
02:47:23 <Eddi|zuHause> in the local authority window you have the option to fund advertising campaigns and stuff. if you have enough money, you can fund new buildings
02:48:05 <Eddi|zuHause> this will increase town growth for a while
02:48:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and you might get enough houses that accept goods again
02:48:52 <impactor> Sounds great. Where can I find this local authority window?
02:49:02 <Eddi|zuHause> in the town window
02:50:18 <Eddi|zuHause> it might be wise to build roads where the town can grow
02:50:35 <impactor> It won't do that itself? Or will it simply grow where I want it to?
02:50:50 <Eddi|zuHause> it will build roads itself
02:51:03 <Eddi|zuHause> but each road it builds means it could have built a house instead
02:51:52 <impactor> I definitely prefer it building houses
02:52:09 <Eddi|zuHause> so building the roads yourself might make the city grow slightly faster
02:56:55 <impactor> Well, that campaign has now made it accept goods
02:57:01 <impactor> So it's going to get a ton shortly :D
03:18:27 <impactor> How long do these funding things last for?
03:20:34 <PeterT> 10:16:57 < PeterT> nobody talks?
03:20:34 <PeterT> 10:17:24 < PeterT> whatever
03:21:40 <Eddi|zuHause> impactor: not entirely sure, about a month maybe...
03:22:47 <Eddi|zuHause> impactor: you should be able to see the pavement next to the roads, if most of them in the outer sections of the town disappear, means the funding stopped
03:23:59 <impactor> Ah, thanks for the hint
03:24:11 * roboboy added a few more things to his guide
03:25:00 <roboboy> should I mention that the windows base base files will work?
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03:28:36 <PeterT> Another n00b moment: 16:55:48 < PeterT> who here is an ottd dev
03:28:36 <PeterT> 16:56:44 < PeterT> ok, dont answer me
03:28:36 <PeterT> 16:56:48 -!- PeterT [~Peter@c-76-19-209-23.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
03:28:36 <PeterT> 16:56:57 < planetmaker> uhm. yes
03:28:36 <PeterT> 16:57:10 < TinoDidriksen> Impatient young man...
03:28:38 <PeterT> 16:57:24 < Nite_Owl> the lack of patience is astounding
03:28:38 <PeterT> 16:57:29 < planetmaker> well. I guess he feared the answers
03:42:42 <impactor> What does building a statue of me in a city do?
03:43:15 <PeterT> Show your ego in said town.
03:43:52 <impactor> Seems like a waste of $400,000 to me
03:44:24 <PeterT> It's for those people with too much money.
03:46:44 <roboboy> are the scripts in the scripts folder meant for MP servers mainly?
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03:52:25 <PeterT> autoexec executes when opening openttd.exe
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03:54:31 <fjb> A statue raises your ratings.
03:55:07 <impactor> Well, the people seem to love how I take them places at the moment, so there's still no need for one right now. Thanks fjb :)
03:57:12 <fjb> Industries may raise their production.
03:57:36 <impactor> I can build industries in a city?
03:59:53 <fjb> Depends. But the industry does not have to be inside the city. Use the query tool to find out which tiles belong to a town.
04:00:26 <fjb> And the station name also tells you the town.
04:00:51 <fjb> Industries only raise the production if the get well served.
04:05:55 <impactor> A well served industry near a city will boost production for the entire city? I didn't know that.
04:10:13 <fjb> No. The production of the well served industry raises.
04:11:40 <fjb> The statue in the city gives a higher rating to all stations belonging to that town.
04:12:01 <fjb> So the industry feels better served.
04:18:05 <impactor> So the statue can raise the ratings of city stations, and thus indirectly raise the productivity of industries in a city?
04:18:34 <impactor> Then I suppose it is worthwhile to build one
04:31:19 <fireun> I've tried manually installing the opensfx release and nightly packages, but still am told my sound set is incomplete (and no sound)
04:31:25 <fireun> what am I doing wrong?
04:32:18 <fireun> I follow the readme, just like for opengfx (which worked fine)
04:33:12 <impactor> Have you tried downloading OpenSFX using OpenTTD's content manager?
04:33:31 <fireun> there are no sound packages in the content manager
04:33:51 <fireun> (I thought there had to be one installed manually beforehand)
04:34:31 <impactor> Well, I guess that makes me stumped, then.
04:34:41 * impactor cowers and points to someone else.
04:37:23 <impactor> Well, you don't really need sound effects to play the game.
04:37:32 <impactor> They're more of a luxury than anything
04:38:14 <fireun> oh, I've been playing without
04:38:24 <fireun> but its something I got around to seeing about fixing
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07:50:22 <roboboy> hm TUBE is an interesting game
07:50:57 <roboboy> its a DOS racing game by BullFrog
07:51:10 <roboboy> its freeware from what I can find
07:51:16 <Starn> i use to love bullfrog.
07:51:43 <roboboy> my two fav DOS games were TT(O)(D) and theme park
07:51:56 <roboboy> I can't find my theme park disk
07:52:26 <Starn> i like watching things on hulu kinda got out of gaming so much
07:53:50 <Starn> i just googled tube for the name keeeps making me remember things.
07:54:07 <Starn> i might have the original copy laying around.
07:58:08 <roboboy> from what I understand it was meant to be a demo piece from a perspective BullFrog employee
07:58:49 * roboboy ponders setting up a dled copy of theme park on his DOS machine
07:59:08 <Starn> whats the specs on your dos machine?
07:59:27 <roboboy> its a 433 mhz Celeron
07:59:37 <Starn> sounds like one of mine
08:00:01 <roboboy> it came with win98se on it but that got moved to another machine and then promptly died a few years later
08:00:33 <roboboy> if only I could find some damn soundcard drivers for its onboard soundvard for DOS
08:01:10 <roboboy> the hard disk 98se was on died
08:01:29 <roboboy> that and the old power suply are the only things to have died
08:01:46 <Starn> i got two "new" computers for free from some friends one was 95 other was 98 [no se] so my 95 turned into linux and my 98 is kinda just sitting there it has 2 or 3 harddrives.
08:01:51 <Doorslammer> I found Theme Park rather bad for blue screen deaths or crashing
08:02:02 <Doorslammer> Same with the old Nigel Mansell game
08:02:21 <roboboy> I dont remember Theme Park BSODing
08:02:43 <Doorslammer> Hmmm, maybe just kicking itself back to desktop then
08:03:03 <roboboy> I'm glad we didnt get theme Transport or something of the TT type from BullFrog
08:03:11 <Starn> most these games i can get running on any 32bit OS.
08:03:32 <Doorslammer> I did have a good reliability from TTO, there was one odd problem with it though
08:03:57 <Doorslammer> Sometimes the music would go bloody psycho for about 20 seconds then sort of carry on as if nothing happened
08:04:01 <roboboy> well I cant run them on my lappy as its 64 bit and our 32bit xp desktop is dead due to the afformentioned 98se disk
08:04:41 <roboboy> XP stuck a few core files on it before it died and now it wont bot
08:05:04 <Starn> i see. i managaed to get a lot of dos games running on even win 7 32bit.
08:05:17 <roboboy> ive been trying various recovery methods over the last 2 years but nothings worked
08:05:27 <roboboy> ive got a few new ideas ecently
08:05:44 <Starn> do you have an XP install disk?
08:05:52 <roboboy> I remember theme park didn't like 95
08:06:10 <roboboy> I dont want to reinstall though im trying to repair it
08:06:16 <Starn> try using to and use the repair function?
08:06:30 <roboboy> thats what im currently trying
08:07:05 <roboboy> something broke last time I tried so I will have to pull that file from my backup
08:07:38 <roboboy> the problem is my keyboard fails in the gui part of setup so I can not enter my product key so im trying nlite
08:08:02 <roboboy> once ive recovered the borked file ill be set to retry with my nite disk
08:08:13 <Starn> if you have 2 harddrive in the machine running the repair should fix it by placing proper files into the correct harddrive.
08:08:54 * roboboy wonders what DOS game he should play now
08:08:57 <Starn> sometimes windows has the habit of not doing what it should.
08:09:36 <roboboy> the only thing I can not get working on my DOS machine is TCP/IP
08:10:09 <roboboy> then I could use it for IRC when im not playing (O)TT(D)(P)
08:10:09 <peter1138> roboboy, get an isa soundblaster, one of the real ones
08:10:19 <peter1138> then it'll work in dos with no problems
08:10:30 <roboboy> ive got a soundcard somewhere
08:10:39 <roboboy> its a matter of finding it
08:10:49 <peter1138> (i assume your dos box has isa slots...)
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08:14:47 <Starn> does linux still have support for old hardware dating back to 94-98 time piroid ?
08:28:49 * roboboy is so thankful for xcopy
08:29:32 <planetmaker> Starn: does windoze still run on a 386?
08:30:11 <peter1138> windows 7? probably not :)
08:30:11 <planetmaker> I'm sure modern windows can't.
08:30:26 <Starn> yea i was gonna mention old.
08:30:36 <planetmaker> then you know your answer wrt linux
08:31:07 <planetmaker> a i586 kernel will fail there
08:31:33 <planetmaker> if you have a i386 you might be lucky - but crawlingly slow
08:31:52 <Starn> well i am wanting a small less than 100mb linux os to do some simple tasks on an old old machine.
08:32:20 <Starn> i think it is about 40-50mbs
08:35:33 <roboboy> hm theme park is brokenish but then im tring to get it to work without a cd
08:35:59 <planetmaker> Starn: maybe look for "damn small linux" (no joke)
08:36:04 * Starn follows roboboy drooling
08:36:16 <Starn> lol i used damn small linux before ^^
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08:43:29 <Prof_Frink> The computer my irc client is running on was made in '98
08:43:47 <peter1138> USB sticks are huge these days
08:43:58 <peter1138> i had slackware installed on a 40MB hdd once
08:44:11 <peter1138> that machine had a 5.25" floppy drive
08:44:47 <Starn> lol indeed usb sticks are huge
08:45:14 <peter1138> i remember that 40MB drive... we thought... how on earth are we going to fill this?
08:45:35 <peter1138> DOS was a couple of disks...
08:45:51 <peter1138> and you could fit several games onto a single floppy...
08:49:37 <Starn> what was that bill gates said about just a few kb that would be more than enough and we would never need more
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09:21:28 <Zuu> Who, microsoft want to push the webbrowser selection on me. To bad I don't have IE as default browser. :-)
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09:22:14 <Zuu> Not that I feel like riskning to get annoying reminders to reboot just for that thing.
09:22:40 <Starn> lol did they make you install IE8?
09:23:09 <planetmaker> Zuu: no, the EU commision forced them to do. On a penalty of several 100 million €
09:23:30 <Zuu> planetmaker: forced them to install IE8?
09:23:37 <planetmaker> no, to offer you choice
09:23:46 <Zuu> Yea, I know the webbrowser selection was forced by the EU.
09:23:47 <planetmaker> and not install IE8 without asking you to
09:24:07 <planetmaker> this or last year
09:24:08 <Starn> do they provide option to remove IE!?
09:24:19 <Zuu> It's being rolled out this next week.
09:24:19 <Starn> if last year my system should not have IE...
09:24:25 <planetmaker> they provide the option to not install IE in the first place
09:24:32 <planetmaker> and it might be that in the US they don't
09:25:12 <Zuu> Didn't they had a special edition of XP? or was it Vista? that didn't had the media player and some other components?
09:25:13 <Starn> i did not know windows could run with out IE they alwasy made windows crash if you forced IE off the system
09:25:29 <planetmaker> explorer != internet explorer
09:25:46 <planetmaker> though they're somewhat closely linked, I guess
09:25:52 <Starn> dunno.. all my systems have came fully packed with M$ B$
09:26:23 <Zuu> Also killing explorer with the task manager does't crash my computers. It just take away the task bar and the desktop.
09:27:08 <Starn> on winxp i think it was i found a way to remove IE and it caused BS every time you booted computer
09:27:17 <Zuu> You just start explorer again from the task manager and you get it back again.
09:27:31 <Starn> i end expolore all the time
09:27:49 <Starn> i like to use 3rd party shells
09:28:33 <Zuu> I tried one third-party start menu for XP but had to throw it away as it wasn't compatible with x-mouse.
09:28:46 <Zuu> x-mouse = microsofts name of focus follow mouse.
09:29:23 <Starn> i like some 3rd party shells due to fact it can give me a feel of the older systems and linux
09:30:04 <Starn> though i am rather pleased with win7...
09:30:22 <Starn> its feel and usablity feels closer to linux for me.
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09:31:15 <Zuu> hehe, I got a upgrade cd for 7 but haven't installed it yet as ms compatibility utility claims that turbo delphi will get into problem after upgrade. (on the net people write that you can still use it in the mode wher all different parts of the IDE has its own single window)
09:32:37 <Starn> eclipse does alot i know that for sure. just an IDE.
09:33:18 <Starn> its an plugin based IDE aka download the plugin and it will support that language
09:35:28 <Starn> for now i would stick to what you have.
09:35:59 <Starn> i am having to digg to much for delphi :P
09:37:24 <Zuu> Delphi is nice except for two problems: 1) not a lot of people use it anymore 2) not cross-platform
09:38:58 <Starn> i've been looking for something extremely simple but powerful
09:39:39 <Starn> i mainly know python and some languages like that.
09:39:48 <Starn> python is great for IRC btw
09:41:20 <Zuu> A problem with python and its alikes is that you don't compile them and thus do not get early warnings/errors on your mistakes and then have to spend a lot of time finding those bugs.
09:41:28 <Starn> all programs i've ever made run under command line except when i was 17 i made an notepad....
09:42:29 <Starn> plus the tools i use debugs them while coding
09:43:38 <Starn> it normally notices any errors instantly like saying there is missing links and things rather useful i also know little java very very little C/C++ and i know some web languages.
09:44:37 <Starn> as an kid i use to use BYOND..
09:44:50 <Zuu> Didn't knew there was a compiler for python, but if they got one then thas good news.
09:45:13 <Starn> or at least it claims it is one.
09:48:13 <Starn> i think some people here would like byond for its kinda fun to just hop in and program using s simple langaug eg for a simple basic chat its something like if i memorry is right mind you its been about 5 or 6 years. mod/verb/say(message as text) world <<"[usr] says: [message]"
09:48:46 <Starn> i mean can you get any easier than this? if so let me know :P
09:50:19 <planetmaker> But I haven't checked it out myself so far
09:50:39 <planetmaker> So I don't know how much "in depth" it compiles (or to what degree) and how good checking is.
09:51:31 <Starn> thes makes me not want to upgrade python...
09:51:33 <Zuu> Sounds more like it is included in the main component/distribution package in 3.0.
09:51:53 <Starn> i just did little fast scan of site lol
09:51:55 <Alberth> python 3.0 is not production ready yet
09:52:22 <Alberth> for programming you should use 2.x
09:52:29 <Zuu> Though, I could be wrong since I don't do much python. Only when applications force me to do that because thats the only or the most sane scripting language they support.
09:52:58 <planetmaker> morning Alberth (and also Zuu and Starn ;-) )
09:53:40 <planetmaker> Alberth, the python page claims that 3.1 is stable.
09:54:19 <Alberth> python itself, yes. Except you dont have many libs available, nor any tutorial-like stuff (for new users)
09:54:42 <Alberth> so as long as you dont' need 'import'.... :)
09:55:19 <Wizzleby> while python 3.1 is stable, the python folks still say it's not ready for production yet. Probably not till python 3.2
09:56:47 <Wizzleby> Hehe. I actually like KDE4 since about 4.2, so.. yeah
09:57:22 <Wizzleby> but the few python projects I work on, we haven't really even put any solid plan as to converting to python3, waiting till it's a bit more mature
09:57:48 <Starn> there is an program i loved more than any program in the world of programs... its for linux only. well sorta.... Amarok.
09:58:44 <Wizzleby> Starn: amarok2 works in windows, they use the phonon vlc backend. But, not everyone likes amarok2 :)
09:58:52 <Starn> you can use an unstable berly working version of it using KDE win.
09:59:05 <Starn> i loved amarok 1 on ubuntu :P
09:59:28 <Starn> tried 2 useing the kdewin installer on windows and it crashed every time i switched songs
09:59:45 <Wizzleby> I mostly use MPD these days, when I use amarok seems like most of my time is spent generating backtraces for the devs rather than listenig to music
10:00:09 <Starn> its been awhile since i've used linux.
10:00:27 <Starn> i think i stopped using linux around the time amarok 2 came out.
10:01:31 <Wizzleby> kubuntu was a mess at that point, although granted it turned out that *ubuntu was just not my flavour of linux
10:01:33 <Starn> by MPD are you talking about music player daemom?
10:01:42 <Wizzleby> yeah, that is what I mean by MPD :)
10:02:53 <Starn> now days i just use Itunes to build my libary and sometimes play my music ok most the time... and to synce my ipod.. recently i installed winamp and been using itunes to build and keep my library clean and using winamp to play
10:03:08 <Ammler> well, those days are gone, since you can use openttd to play music lists :-)
10:03:21 <Starn> i have over 12,000 songs... so i need something to automaticly keep things in order.
10:03:30 <Wizzleby> mpd is in need of a good Qt/KDE frontend though
10:04:28 <Starn> i think i got excited...
10:05:27 <Wizzleby> I dunno, haven't tried it
10:05:41 <Starn> i am highly tempted to...
10:05:46 <Wizzleby> crazy... like KVM for windows o_O
10:07:11 <Starn> though i am gonna try this and my test program will be OpenTTD
10:08:44 <Starn> though from sounds of it i am wanting something more native like.. maybe the microsofts little attempt to be more opensource and cross platform support and making programs for linux will in the futur allow there to be no border lines in any system ^^
10:09:13 <Wizzleby> as far as linux goes, I've taken quite a fancy to gentoo. I even maintain a portage overlay for OpenTTD betas/RCs (and currently opengfx and opensfx plus deps) till 1.0.0 rolls around and it goes in the main portage tree
10:10:07 <Starn> this seems to much like an virtual machine :(
10:10:30 <Wizzleby> yeah that it does, special driver software to run the kernel at ring 0
10:11:08 <Starn> though its much smaller than most i've used i oddly took a fancy to microsofts virtual machine...
10:11:48 <Wizzleby> I tried that a couple times, only in win7 for the 'XP mode' type install though
10:11:57 <Wizzleby> usually I use virtualbox for a VM
10:12:42 <Starn> wow this provides a nice choice for which linux i wanna download
10:13:06 <Starn> archlinux debian fedora gentoo deluxe ubuntu
10:13:19 <Starn> all are smaller than 200mb download size
10:13:55 <Starn> yet some how says they are extracted to 256mb smallest one to 4gb biggest one.. which is only 162mb download o.O
10:14:04 <Starn> i want their compression tools!
10:14:06 <Wizzleby> Starn: this is for colinux?
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10:14:32 <Starn> debating on getting ubuntu 7.10 or gentoo or debian..
10:14:35 <Wizzleby> hmm... if I can have it grab gentoo, this may definitely be worth a try just for giggles at least :)
10:14:49 <Starn> exactly what i am doing for
10:15:20 <Starn> but i am thinking about ubuntu 7.10 just cuz i have a desk with it.. and i've used it before so i know how it should work.
10:15:28 <Wizzleby> wrt gentoo, for a minimal install, ~200MiB is about right. Remember that in gentoo, you need to build Xorg and your WM or DE of choice
10:16:06 <Starn> this says gentoo deluxe 108mb extraxts to 2gb
10:17:02 <Wizzleby> ahh, interesting. I wonder how it sets gentoo up.
10:17:17 <Starn> dunno i am gonna try it.
10:17:53 <Starn> said it wont run on x64
10:18:33 <Starn> i'll see if i downloaded wrong file if they even had a choice.
10:18:50 <Wizzleby> I see only a single .exe per version on their SF page
10:19:08 <Starn> i am gonna try cheating >.>
10:26:07 <Wizzleby> Speaking of maintaining current builds, is there an RSS which would indicate to me new builds available for: catcodec, grfcodec, nforenum? If not no problem, I'll write a script to check.
10:26:25 <Starn> wish i could figur out why oTTD does not like my internet.. i can download content just fine .. lol
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10:27:42 <Starn> i am gonna try something fun!...
10:28:16 <Starn> gonna try irssi for windows
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10:29:51 <Wizzleby> I like quassel as far as IRC goes. irssi always irked me
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10:31:18 <Starn88> i've never heard of quassel.. can you provide a link?
10:32:42 <Starn88> i am not going to like this if i can not find out how to make font bigger...
10:35:49 <Starn> irssi no go.. it keeps running even after closing it.
10:37:48 <Starn> thank you.. hmm like the screen shot... for windows from reading this i would want monolithic client?
10:37:56 <Wizzleby> it can be used either monolithic like a traditional IRC client, or as a server/client system, so the core runs in the background keeping your connection open, channels logged etc, your nick and other data, then the client connects to that
10:38:24 <Wizzleby> you could use either the monolithic, or the core+client. depends on your needs. I like core+client, cause I can close my IRC client without disconnecting
10:38:56 <Starn> i rarely close client unless i am leaving home for a few days
10:39:20 <Wizzleby> well, I can also use my laptop for IRC without having to start up a second session, just connect to my first :)
10:39:39 <Wizzleby> or X can crash, as well as the client, and the core stays running and connected
10:39:40 <Starn> right now i am on mIRC which i feel so unsafe.. feel naked..
10:40:03 <planetmaker> Rubidium, are there (scriptable) means to find out the percentage of crash.log at FS which use OpenGFX as graphics set, possibly using | uniq with respect to the reporters?
10:40:04 <Starn> hey this gives me an idea.
10:40:26 <peter1138> gui irc clients? pfft
10:40:36 <Rubidium> planetmaker: probably not
10:40:41 <Starn> i have multible computers right Wizzleby? would i be able to install core onto windows 98 and client on my windows 7 and connect like that?
10:40:50 <planetmaker> I was curious and looked through bug reports manually... 28:22 in favour of OpenGFX
10:40:59 <planetmaker> But I'm not really sure I have no doubles wrt authors
10:41:11 <planetmaker> most probable I have, though I tried to avoid it
10:41:17 <Wizzleby> Starn: yeah, so long as the core actually runs on win98 (not sure if it does)
10:41:18 <Starn> peter1138i i've stripped this down to be as close to my prefered client on linux lol
10:41:31 <planetmaker> (back to FS 3495 = 9.1.2010)
10:41:37 <Wizzleby> you could also have the core on a linux server, and the client on your windows :)
10:42:05 <Starn> irssi does not live windows :P
10:42:17 <peter1138> peter1138 does not like windows
10:42:31 <Wizzleby> eh. I use irssi as sort of a last ditch thing
10:42:39 <Wizzleby> it's too confusing with 30 or so channels
10:42:49 <Wizzleby> so definitely not my primary client ;)
10:43:10 <Starn> holy 18mb for irc client!?
10:43:14 <SpComb^> the GUI clients are confusing with all their weird window lists with weird long names taking up all the screen real estate
10:43:34 <Wizzleby> SpComb^: admittedly it's a matter of preference here
10:43:39 <SpComb^> whereas irssi makes do with just one line of text
10:43:55 <SpComb^> how much less could one ask for
10:44:02 <Starn> mIRC has hardly any windows hogging anything up and uses tabs for multi channels
10:44:20 <Starn> than again this is stripped down.
10:44:48 <Starn> its mirc with polarisX heavely modified by me.
10:44:54 <Wizzleby> I can appreciate irssi, and console apps in general. It just doesn't mesh with my normal workflow
10:45:00 <planetmaker> Starn, then use xchat, if 18MB is too much :-) 1MB for a nice GUI
10:45:20 <Starn> well i was refering to Wizzleby quassel being 18mb
10:45:42 <Starn> i use to use xchat.... but it became pay to use
10:45:56 <Wizzleby> Starn: well on windows, I bet that quassel is statically linked to qt and sqlite.. that'll up the size a bi
10:46:18 <peter1138> only if you're unable to find a search engine for a free build
10:46:21 <peter1138> it is gpl after all
10:46:23 <planetmaker> zypper install xchat did the trick here ;-)
10:46:33 <Starn> the free builds are out of date.
10:46:44 <planetmaker> The source isn't ;-)
10:47:01 <Starn> lol and i do not have the C++ tools to compile it.
10:47:14 <Starn> or the know how when it comes to C++
10:50:52 <Starn> can irc.oftc.net use SSL?
10:50:58 <Ammler> there is a xchat windows fork
10:51:17 <Rubidium> SSL + IPv6 works perfectly fine
10:51:39 <Starn> i know.. which costs money Ammler.. though as people have stated there is free builds but this issue for me is they are old and do not like 64bit and do not like win7
10:51:54 <Starn> so i can check secure connection than.
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10:52:59 <Ammler> Starn: the "fork" is freeware
10:53:33 <Starn> if your refering to Xchat 2 it does not run 100% on win 7 64bit or not for me.
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11:02:09 <Starn-alt> this poses an issue.. some how there became two of me... and i cant make other me leave
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11:20:29 <Zuu> Hmm, I plan to make some libraries for common classes shared betwene PAXLink and CluelessPlus. Is "Zuu" a good prefix for those libraries or does someone has a better idea?
11:20:56 <Zuu> Anyone else may use them if they like of course, but the main target is my own AIs.
11:23:33 <peter1138> hmm, opengfx's brown hedges are... odd
11:30:41 <Starn> man i've been connected to this internet radio for over 740mins
11:33:55 <planetmaker> Zuu, usually I'd propose a prefix regarding the use...
11:34:34 <planetmaker> they might be more universaly usable than you now think ;-)
11:34:50 <planetmaker> peter1138, can you give me a screenshot of what you mean exactly?
11:34:57 <Zuu> So more like Utils.Helper?
11:35:18 <Zuu> Even though it contains functions like GetPAXCargo() :-)
11:35:20 <planetmaker> Zuu, well... I dunno what you plan...
11:35:48 <planetmaker> On the other hand a library named after oneself is a good boost for the ego, if others use it :-P
11:37:07 <Zuu> I didn't really want to use my name as a prefix but at the same time I don't want to spend much time on making the libs very universial.
11:37:11 <frosch123> well, if it gets more popular you can still find a proper meaning for every abbreviation, e.g. zillion useless utilities
11:37:22 <Zuu> Though, I'll probably make most libs usable without my log-system.
11:37:53 <planetmaker> lol @ frosch123 ! I like that acronym definition ;-)
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11:38:42 <planetmaker> peter1138, not continuous on the slopes?
11:41:48 <planetmaker> thanks for telling, looks funny indeed...
11:42:41 <Starn> stop making me feel blind >.>
11:42:59 <planetmaker> oh... frosch made a fix for sugar mine and stuff :-)
11:43:28 <OwenS> Bah... That HDD had so better arrive tomorrow
11:43:29 <frosch123> yeah, i managed to finish what i started a month ago :p
11:50:00 <Starn> possibley.. i dont see anything in screeny...
11:50:36 <planetmaker> red/green insufficiency?
11:50:55 <planetmaker> if you know what to look for it's obvious
11:55:56 <planetmaker> hm... concerning base sets, always the one with the highest version should be picked, right?
11:56:15 <planetmaker> Regardless whether they are in .../content_download/data or .../data ?
11:58:23 <planetmaker> My OpenGFX 0.2.1 in content_download/data takes precedence over my OpenGFX in data
11:58:37 <Rubidium> check the version in the obg
11:58:38 <planetmaker> (the nightly is in data)
12:00:05 <Rubidium> different shortnames?
12:00:15 <planetmaker> yes... ogfx vs OGFX
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12:00:38 <planetmaker> but I cannot select the other
12:01:15 <Rubidium> probably because they got the same name
12:02:21 <planetmaker> I'll try with OGFX instead of ogfx
12:02:24 <Rubidium> what does openttd -d9 show about the base sets?
12:03:03 <Rubidium> anyhow, changing the shortname is bad because then you can't update opengfx in bananas
12:03:33 <planetmaker> ok, I'll correct that. And first I'll try what happens if it's the same
12:05:12 <planetmaker> changing it to OGFX didn't do the trick...
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12:08:02 <Zuu> Hmm, most NoAI stuff is in sigular so "Utils" would become just "Util" or maybe the longer "Utility".
12:08:47 <planetmaker> Oh... stupid me. It DOES do the trick. Sorry Rubidium
12:08:57 <planetmaker> Got confused between the OpenSFX and OpenGFX entries ;-)
12:09:01 <planetmaker> They looked too similar
12:09:52 <OwenS> planetmaker: Incidentally, whats happening on the comic-style project?
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12:10:25 <Rubidium> planetmaker: it's wrong for OpenSFX too
12:10:34 <planetmaker> OwenS, well... V453000 is currently producing some more houses with construction stages
12:11:14 <planetmaker> granted, it fell prey to finishing opengfx and then other RL stuff
12:12:31 <planetmaker> but it's only sleeping, not dead :-)
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12:19:55 <TrueBrain> stop putting your computer in the freezer!
12:20:40 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19362 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#3667] (r19270): Failure to prospect an industry should not cause a crash.
12:20:43 <peter1138> my computer's too hot, i had to add some fans because the graphics card was glitching
12:21:31 <peter1138> heh heh, flash openttd
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12:23:01 <Rubidium> for that you need some combination of OpenTTD + Mac OS X + Mac + 8bpp blitter
12:24:29 <Rubidium> wow, ~400 GB of bananas downloads a month (given the stats of the last month)
12:25:01 <Starn> remember my network yesterday? i extended it and made it more complex. and now a total of 12 trains running on at most 4 tracks at a time.
12:26:22 <planetmaker> Starn, I remember my one game where I built the single factory station... serving ~600 trains... :-P
12:26:42 <planetmaker> and the station only had three entry lanes
12:26:50 <OwenS> planetmaker: Still pales in comparison to the game where we had a single factory serving ~1200 trains, from 4 lanes :p
12:27:04 <Starn> well i am not great at building tracks so managing to get 12 onto 4 tracks and no jams is an amazing task for me.
12:27:09 <planetmaker> :-) yes, I know that it's not the biggest :-)
12:27:14 <OwenS> You'll get it with time :-)
12:27:51 <OwenS> (Or, if you come join us in 'coop, you'll probably get it faster shortly after your head explodes :P )
12:28:40 <Starn> i would join the coop but my internet crashes everytime i try to join an multiplayer game.. only happens when i click join and it starts downloading to about half way.
12:29:35 <Starn> yea does this for every computer on my network so i am clueless tried other modems my ISP gave me.. and direct link to modem
12:30:07 <Starn> and the odd thing is i have no issues with p2p programs.
12:30:47 <peter1138> i tried a netgear with sucked with openttd
12:30:47 <planetmaker> Starn, it might still be a glitchy connection.
12:31:06 <Rubidium> p2p is something completely different than OpenTTD
12:31:18 <peter1138> the dlink and the buffalo work(ed) fine
12:31:29 <Starn> well on forums someone suggested if p2p don't work than openttd wont
12:31:46 <TrueBrain> not all people on the forums know what they talk about :)
12:31:50 <planetmaker> not everyone on the forums has a clue ;-) especially how openttd's network works
12:31:50 <Rubidium> Starn: the forum is full of stupid people
12:32:04 <OwenS> P2P and OpenTTD have very different operating modes
12:32:06 <TrueBrain> 3 shots, 3 scores :) The crowd goes wild!
12:32:25 <Starn> does openTTD use modern methods ?
12:32:29 <OwenS> P2P is likely to crash your router by creating 10k connections, OpenTTD will just create one
12:32:32 <Rubidium> Starn: e.g. P2P is fully TCP based, OpenTTD uses UDP for discovery
12:32:44 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: A LIE! p2p can also be UDP :)
12:32:53 <OwenS> TrueBrain: You mean like UTP? :P
12:32:56 <TrueBrain> (well, for discovery too :))
12:33:12 <Starn> my torrent software is set to use both either one.
12:33:19 <TrueBrain> OwenS: no, you put the UTP in your ass, and send UDP over it :p
12:33:33 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: can, but does it? Hmm, I guess it occasionally does as torrents sometimes seem to lock DoS my hardware
12:33:48 <OwenS> TrueBrain: You can also send UTP over UDP over UTP. Silly overloaded in same domain TLA
12:33:51 <Starn> ok now i know the connection method does it use same method for downloading online content?
12:34:19 <Rubidium> anyhow, OpenTTD sends out a short burst of UDP packets and I think a lot of hardware isn't capable of handling that gracefully
12:34:34 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
12:35:01 <Starn> explains why i can download ai and things
12:35:03 <Rubidium> ofcourse the only way for us to detect that it by actually doing so and then it already crashed the hardware
12:35:03 <OwenS> Rubidium: Why does BaNaNaS use a custom download protocol? Or does it actually just use that for looking up, and HTTP for downloads?
12:35:22 <Rubidium> OwenS: because a custom protocol is much simpler to parse and such
12:35:40 <OwenS> Rubidium: Heh. I was kinda thinking "Statically link libcurl" :P
12:35:57 <OwenS> (Or, in my case, link against QtNetwork, but I'd see why you wouldn't want to do that ;-) )
12:35:58 <TrueBrain> why do you need curl if I can write our own http downloader in a few lines? :)
12:36:01 <TrueBrain> much more compatible ;)
12:36:05 <Rubidium> OwenS: and make Windows compilation even harder?
12:36:07 <Starn> ok in theory if i went to my routers controle panel and messed around in there with the udp settings i might get it to work or simi work?
12:36:25 <OwenS> Rubidium: You could stick it in 3rdparty like squirrel. Or there are very lightweight network libraries
12:36:26 <Rubidium> OwenS: even then, HTTP downloading 'check'... now the parsing/validating of the data
12:36:50 <Rubidium> HTTP is purely a transport protocol
12:37:09 <Rubidium> you still need to code a 'protocol' on top of HTTP
12:37:23 <OwenS> I suppose I have it easy in that all my app needs to do over HTTP is grab images and models :P
12:37:26 <Rubidium> nevertheless, 1.0.0 can download over HTTP from our mirrors
12:37:36 <TrueBrain> it even has a 'protocol' over HTTP :)
12:39:24 <OwenS> Actually, thats a lie... It also needs to implement sign-on over HTTPS
12:40:26 <OwenS> (And then relay the response to the game server)
12:43:21 <Starn> would portforwarding might help?
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12:47:34 <Starn> i am about to try something i am more likely to loss internet for a few hours ...
12:47:50 <Starn> which will suck a great deal.
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12:48:37 <Starn> i am about to shhh my self
12:49:18 <Starn> IT WORKEDD!!!! I AM ON AN ONLINE GAME!!!
12:51:55 <Starn> wow i never thought about using signels like this.
12:54:14 <peter1138> if that's an openttdcoop game, nobody does
12:54:32 <Starn> its not... not i am aware of...
12:54:53 <Starn> is there away to see what game i am in? lol
12:55:24 <OwenS> You should have noticed when you joined :P
12:55:26 <PeterT> What is the server's name?
12:55:41 <Starn> not sure joined a random one
12:55:56 <PeterT> Starn: Some games are actually connected to IRC, like at #OpenTTDMegaClan
12:56:06 <planetmaker> like #openttdcoop ;-)
12:56:20 <PeterT> Oh, I thought that one was obvious :-)
12:56:47 <PeterT> #openttdcoop, #openttdcoop.dev, #coopetition
12:59:56 <OwenS> I am so creating an alias for killall to kill `pgrep $1`
13:00:24 <OwenS> Actually, no. Then I'd do "pfexec killall something" and restart my box >_<
13:04:15 <Starn> i was in maarten1 -(1940-2010,NoAir,NoBrk,150k-GBP)
13:04:31 <PeterT> Oh, you have 1.0.0-RC2
13:07:43 *** starn102 has joined #openttd
13:08:01 <starn102> i clicked find servers and lost internet.
13:08:27 <PeterT> How does that even happen?
13:08:45 *** Starn is now known as Guest599
13:08:46 *** starn102 is now known as Starn
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13:11:57 <peter1138> your router cannot handle all the udp packets from random sources
13:12:46 <peter1138> but, if you say it happens whatever router/modem/etc you use, maybe you ISP can't handle it ;p
13:15:16 *** starn102 has joined #openttd
13:15:29 <starn102> ok it keeps disconnecting talk to you guys later
13:15:41 <starn102> it wil lresolve it self removing power soon.
13:16:18 <OwenS> peter1138: must be a reallly crappy ISP...
13:16:18 <starn102> i shall try staying on as long as possible
13:16:51 *** starn102 is now known as Starn
13:17:52 <Starn> so any clue on why it worked but when i clicked the find servers it did not i've seen a post about a issue alot like this but they was using laptops and wireless i am not.
13:23:24 <Alberth> as peter1138 said, with 'find servers' you get lots of udp packets. That situation does not happen when connecting to a single server
13:27:43 <OwenS> Perhaps Find Servers should switch to TCP? :P
13:29:27 <Alberth> then you get lots of relatively heavy tcp connection requests, even more traffic :)
13:29:44 <OwenS> Alberth: The router is likely to deal with heavy TCP better
13:30:45 * OwenS wishes ISPs would cache negative responses for less time
13:34:56 *** fjb is now known as Guest601
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13:58:07 <andythenorth> in the (theoretical) case that I produced a narrow gauge set featuring industrial trains (sugar cane, mining etc)....should it be implemented as trains or trams ?
13:58:18 <andythenorth> this would be 2ft gauge kind of stuff
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13:59:15 <frosch123> shall they be able to drive on roads?
13:59:41 <frosch123> two on one road, smaller than heqs vehicles?
14:00:41 <andythenorth> logic says it should be trains. but tram tracks offer certain gameplay advantages...
14:01:05 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19363 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Remove use of _error_message global from TerraformTile_Track.
14:02:55 <andythenorth> industrial tracks often don't use signals, and they don't take up much space => trams better
14:03:24 <andythenorth> but RVs have fixed consists when built, and players expect trains to be 'trains' in the game, not 'road vehicles' => trains better
14:04:21 <Alberth> railstype "industrial tracks"?
14:09:54 <Eddi|zuHause> we have enough trains already...
14:10:09 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what about the difficulty of making up consists?
14:10:57 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: allow refitting to 3,7 or 11 wagons [1, 2 or 3 tiles]?
14:11:08 <andythenorth> using 'hidden' vehicles?
14:11:09 <Eddi|zuHause> the serbian tram set did something like this
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14:12:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i like the early cargo trams of the germanrv set, but their size/capacity ratio is mismatched, and they can't be updated after 1950
14:13:06 <andythenorth> what about entirely changing the way articulated RVs work?
14:13:37 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but how do you prevent attaching one truck to another? :p
14:13:47 <Eddi|zuHause> "dualhead" doesn't really work with road vehicles :p
14:14:01 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ummm one moment
14:15:09 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what can / can't be attached is up to the newgrf coder, same as for trains....
14:16:26 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, but the difficulty is that the default vehicles shouldn't be able to attach anything
14:17:51 <andythenorth> another cunning plan foiled :D
14:18:42 <Eddi|zuHause> what i mean: with trains you default to "can attach anything" and the callback returns to forbid something
14:19:02 <Eddi|zuHause> and with road vehicles you default to "can't attach anything" and the callback returns to allow something
14:19:12 <andythenorth> that would work yes
14:20:01 <Eddi|zuHause> next difficulty is you need "wagons" that can't leave the depot on their own
14:20:46 * andythenorth thinks perhaps life is too short for anyone to patch for this idea :)
14:22:46 *** fonsinchen has joined #openttd
14:22:51 <andythenorth> I have a serious suggestion for the silly '2.0' thread though
14:23:10 <andythenorth> *seriously* improved route management
14:23:27 <andythenorth> new rail types / road types + new airports + some vehicle gui tweaks
14:23:44 <OwenS> andythenorth: Get coding ;-)
14:23:58 <andythenorth> OwenS: how do you know I'm not?
14:24:37 <OwenS> (Other than the "generally you're probably not")
14:24:44 <andythenorth> for the avoidance of doubt....I'm not
14:24:54 <andythenorth> but rail types and new airports are work in progress
14:25:02 <OwenS> Also: People who request so much at once generally aren't ;-)
14:25:45 <andythenorth> not a request - these are being worked on. I wonder if when (if?) they're done, that's "2.0"
14:25:52 <De_Ghosty> that thing the truck is carrying looks like a distiller / oil cracker
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14:26:47 <OwenS> De_Ghosty: Oil crackers and distillers look quite difference. Perhaps you're thinking Fractionating Collumn?
14:26:49 <Ammler> andythenorth: I would rather guess 1.1
14:27:24 <Eoin> didnt someone draw some motorway tiles, but it didnt go any further/
14:27:38 <Eddi|zuHause> there's more to motorways than simply a new road type
14:27:53 <OwenS> For a start, support for two tile wide networks I'd presume
14:27:59 <De_Ghosty> a column for anything
14:28:35 <OwenS> De_Ghosty: Yes, but cracking tends to occur in pressure vessels, which physics says to make spherical for maximum strength
14:28:37 <Ammler> the highway screen was a replacement of tram tracks, iirc
14:29:04 <De_Ghosty> cylindrical is strong too
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14:29:28 <De_Ghosty> let's just say we're both right
14:31:42 * OwenS wonders why Django says I don't have permission to do anything... when I am a superuser...
14:31:45 <Eddi|zuHause> two big problems with motorways: 1) you need more advanced passing patterns for efficient use of two lanes in one direction, 2) you need multi-tile-objects for onramps and smoother curves
14:32:04 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I could live without those
14:32:28 <andythenorth> if road types becomes possible, I'll probably do motorways and 'dirt roads'
14:32:29 <Eddi|zuHause> they are useless without those...
14:32:42 <Eddi|zuHause> build one way roads and make their graphics more fancy
14:33:00 <Ammler> well, at least overtaking in curves is needed
14:33:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. don't paint arrows on the roads but make them road side beautifications...
14:33:21 <peter1138> oh, the helicopter sound
14:33:36 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I would think motorways are exactly that. Plus different speed limits, and some vehicles not allowed on them
14:34:14 <andythenorth> and make them expensive to build
14:34:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: motorways are also "towns don't grow along them and can't build crossings any place they like"
14:34:56 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: And the ability to do that without hacks like building them on foundations ;-)
14:35:14 <andythenorth> prevent overbuilding crossings with a cb?
14:35:24 <andythenorth> dunno how to prevent towns growing along them
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14:35:57 <Eddi|zuHause> and for anything remotely speedy you need smoother curves
14:36:21 <andythenorth> but that's never going to happen right?
14:36:27 * frosch123 ponders coding auto-disable-autosave-for-silly-usersupplied-huge-savegames
14:37:29 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's not impossible... for example ship-locks are already existing multi-tile objects
14:37:35 <andythenorth> would the RV pathfinder freak on diagonal stretches of road (| –) ? we have the sprites...
14:37:56 <andythenorth> vehicle sprites that is
14:38:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the pathfinder would be the easiest thing to extend
14:39:16 <Eddi|zuHause> more problematic are the used map bits and the road movement patterns [need more flexible state machines a la newgrf airports]
14:39:35 <Eddi|zuHause> and the state machines of airports are currently unable to handle articulated vehicles
14:39:47 <peter1138> just convince a friendly programmer to try it
14:40:36 <Yexo> <Eddi|zuHause> and the state machines of airports are currently unable to handle articulated vehicles <- that is indeed a problem, do you have any suggestions?
14:42:59 <Ammler> group articulated vehicle as single as soon they enter it.
14:43:35 <Yexo> group? you mean just use the first part and let the rest not bend or so?
14:43:56 <Ammler> yes, something like that
14:45:12 <andythenorth> should I even ask why road types need more map bits than rail types (looking at docs)
14:45:31 <andythenorth> sorry not types, just 'road' and 'rail'
14:45:32 <Yexo> one road tile can have multiple owners
14:46:05 <Yexo> 1 owner for the road (=1st road type), 1 for the tram (=2nd road type) and 1 for a drive-through station
14:46:50 <OwenS> Plus 4 bits for tram & for road half-tiles I guess
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14:48:15 <andythenorth> would diagonal roads add much? It is a classic isometric grid game....perhaps we'd lose something by adding them?
14:49:03 <andythenorth> plus all the stuff with town buildings gets more complicated...
14:49:14 <andythenorth> the game is the game, right?
14:49:22 <andythenorth> except when we change it :o
14:49:22 <_newage_> make the 32bpp possible then ottd will appeal more people
14:49:33 * andythenorth doesn't discuss 32bpp
14:49:44 <peter1138> 32bpp is possible, heh
14:49:47 <Yexo> andythenorth: if diagonal stretches were added to the existing roads (so keep all roadbits as they are not and add some) you'd need 4 bits for the 4 diagonal parts
14:49:56 <Yexo> * 2 because you also need them for trams
14:50:04 <_newage_> I mean the project, no the techical issue
14:50:26 <Yexo> _newage_: 32bpp has been supported by openttd for years
14:50:35 <andythenorth> Yexo: how many bits are free? I count 8 in m4
14:51:18 <Yexo> those 8 + 1 bit in m6 and 1 bit in m7
14:51:28 <Yexo> that is, if landscape_grid.html is up to daet
14:52:00 <Rubidium> those 8 bits are more-or-less reserved for newroads
14:52:08 <peter1138> wasn't there space for a 3rd road type on a tile?
14:52:40 <Alberth> _newage_: some people are needed to draw the graphics
14:52:43 <peter1138> ah yeah, 4 bits for road type ids
14:54:09 <andythenorth> so diagonal => no map space?
14:55:11 <andythenorth> I kind of prefer that
14:55:15 <andythenorth> limitations are good
14:55:44 <andythenorth> OwenS: which bit is lies :)
14:57:08 <OwenS> andythenorth: limitations being good.
14:57:54 <andythenorth> no diagonal roads means no-one has to draw them, code them, make the pathfinder work with them, make towns work with them, modify the GUI :)
14:58:10 <andythenorth> all of which means that we can get on with making road types without diagonals
14:58:16 <andythenorth> so road types might ship sooner :)
14:59:24 <peter1138> imho, diagonal rails only work because you can only fit 1 train on a (non-diagonal) rail tile
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15:00:25 <Zuu> no diagonal roads also means noone has to update their AIs to support it. :-)
15:00:28 *** fonsinchen has joined #openttd
15:00:48 <andythenorth> plus very importantly, Lego town road baseplates did not come in a diagonal version
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15:10:52 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r19364 /trunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#3668]: Implement custom sound effect for helicopter take-off.
15:11:52 <Terkhen> diagonal roads sounds like a lot of work for a relatively small benefit
15:13:03 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why i think multi-tile curves are a better approach than diagonal roads
15:13:34 <peter1138> road tiles with custom 'routing'
15:14:00 <Eddi|zuHause> with or without station
15:14:29 <Alberth> he, that would fit nicely in my idea of letting go of a single fixed plane of tiles
15:14:55 <Starn> hello. my internet is fully fixed. it was weird i went to restroom and came back and my computer was off when i did not tell it to.
15:15:22 <Alberth> ie have tiles for the surface, and for each piece of track/road.
15:15:25 <Starn> probably.. been doing that since i got windows 7.
15:16:16 <Alberth> you even paid for the rootkit? :p
15:16:30 <Starn> no its from student thing.
15:16:40 <peter1138> so does your internet connection remain 'broken' quite some time after the server browse issue?
15:16:48 <Starn> any thing by microsoft free to any student to this collage
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15:17:04 <Alberth> Starn: yeah, I know the idea
15:17:37 <peter1138> then it sounds like all the UDP is triggering something at your ISP, maybe DoS protection or something
15:17:42 <Starn> hey whats another game that used UDP connections?
15:18:27 <Starn> my ISP is only ISP that is faster than cable that is offered in my local area.. and is also almost the only one that is used... ATT
15:19:14 * Alberth thinks a reliable connection is more interesting than speed
15:19:29 <Starn> well with Cable i cant even play games online
15:20:10 <Starn> i prefer a fast internet that is also cheaper that allowes me to play the games i have payed for and most other games openTTD is the first game i've had any issues with
15:20:28 <Starn> and i use to have 72 games installed on this exact system
15:21:16 <Starn> Could programs like TeamSpeak or Ventrilio or even Firefox causes this issue?
15:25:11 <andythenorth> multi-tile curves couldn't have junctions or crossings by other types of route, right?
15:26:13 <Eddi|zuHause> unless the other type of route is also builtin
15:26:42 <Starn> i guess i am gonna go back to tweaking with my sound system and play with the amp and speakers and make them sound better its nice having 12" speakers and 20" speakers connected to a PC.
15:27:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i was thinking about a way, if you have e.g. a tram station, you could allow certain road bits to be built, but i'm not sure how that should work
15:27:58 <Eddi|zuHause> same way you could allow building roads or rails through an industry
15:28:19 <andythenorth> how about building curved stations? It seems related to this
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15:28:40 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's a special case...
15:29:27 <andythenorth> and these curves - they would only make use of the existing 8 sprite directions for vehicles?
15:30:36 <Eddi|zuHause> most immediate use would be turning loops for trams
15:34:47 <Zuu> Has there been a "crash without crash message" fix for the last nightly not related to airports? I'll got repeted such crashes and will make a build in VS Studio to run with the debuger.
15:36:45 <Zuu> The prospect industry crash could it happen without a user treggering it?
15:38:33 <Alberth> hmm, possibly. I don't know how the game creates a new industry
15:39:16 <Zuu> Depends on if the game uses the prospecting algorithm or not I guess.
15:39:45 <Alberth> probably it does, how else would it find a place for the industry?
15:40:10 <Zuu> Yep, that sounds resonable.
15:40:33 <Alberth> the question is, does it use the same code. I suspect it does, but do not know that precisely
15:41:15 <Alberth> but the problem is fixed in r19362
15:41:22 <Zuu> Either if I'm able to reproduce my crashes or not I need a new build to continue debugging my new grade separated railway crossing code in CluelessPlus.
15:42:04 <Zuu> (if I was not clear enough, I'm building a new build not asking for someone to do it)
15:43:26 <Zuu> I'm trying to make CluelessPlus detect if someone builds rail over its roads and make a bridge instead.
15:44:06 <Zuu> People who try to demolish AI vehicles will get mad XD
15:44:22 * Alberth ponders about ways to abuse that :p
15:44:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: make it impossible to build bridge heads around the rail ;)
15:45:11 <Eddi|zuHause> we urgently need custom bridge heads for roads...
15:45:52 <Alberth> yeah, I was thinking that too, lay a rail every other tile for the entire length of the road :)
15:45:57 <Zuu> It does check the slope-ness of the ground before removing the road. Though I realize it does not check for bridges over the new bridge heads.
15:46:40 <Eddi|zuHause> town roads that it is not allowed to remove...
15:46:57 <Eddi|zuHause> or other people's roads
15:46:58 <Zuu> It only does it if it owns the road.
15:47:00 <Alberth> good idea Zuu, lay a bridge over the road first
15:47:56 <planetmaker> Zuu, that's a battle which is hard to find. A player who wants to be mean can be mean
15:48:48 <Zuu> planetmaker: Indeed. It was not ment to be a battle against that behavior, rather against those who aren't kind enough to make railway bridge crossings.
15:49:18 <planetmaker> true, that happens :-)
15:49:38 <Zuu> Only a few AIs does that and I'm sure there are players who don't mind if they make railway crossings over AI roads.
15:50:08 * planetmaker doesn't mind always either. ;-)
15:50:25 * planetmaker also builds road bridges over other AIs / peoples tracks, if I use the road
15:50:49 <Zuu> That last version of CluelessPlus already does.
15:51:32 <Zuu> But if you had the road there first it can be a good idea to at least detect when your vehicles get hit by a train and do something against the situation.
15:51:56 <planetmaker> true. Only when an accident happens or how do you trigger?
15:52:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: note that if there is one route with a level crossing, and another route with a bridge, vehicles will prefer the bridge
15:52:41 <Zuu> It would probably be when an accident happens or when it for another reason scan the road for problems. Eg. if the profit quickly goes down on a road link it will see if the link is broken.
15:52:48 <Eddi|zuHause> the detour can be set in the yapf penalties
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15:54:38 <Eddi|zuHause> "Hootch _is_ crazy" :p
15:55:11 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19365 /trunk/src/ (rail.h rail_cmd.cpp signal.cpp vehicle.cpp vehicle_func.h): -Codechange: Move EnsureNoTrainOnTrackProc() to src/vehicle.cpp.
15:55:28 <Zuu> Eddi: Thanks, I'll make some tests with that and possible fall back to building a bridge side by side with the road if it has problems to remove the old road first.
16:10:54 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19366 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Codechange: Move setting of _error_message from the callback check routine to the caller.
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16:56:06 <PeterT> Hi Starn, better connection now?
16:56:29 *** fonsinchen has joined #openttd
16:57:03 <Starn> yea. also it stays like this so long as i don't trying playing openTTD online well.. at least finding servers lol only game or program i've seen where i have this issue.
16:57:10 <planetmaker> he gave the connection properties to fonsinchen obviously :-P
16:59:14 <fonsinchen> Uh, did I do something wrong? I have a new IRC client ...
16:59:40 <fonsinchen> sorry for repeatedly connecting
16:59:58 <Starn> so what client ya using?
17:00:31 <Eddi|zuHause> /ctcp <nick> version
17:00:33 <fonsinchen> konversation now, pidgin before. Pidgin doesn't support auto-identification and trashed my jaber-account
17:00:41 <fonsinchen> so it had to be removed.
17:00:57 <Starn> ah i see i liked konversation
17:02:16 <PeterT> fonsinchen: Glad that you're joining more than one channel now :-)
17:03:26 <fonsinchen> Yeah, maybe I can encourage them to give cargodist another try ...
17:04:12 <KenjiE20> heh, pidgin's IRC isn't really supposed to be used :P
17:04:36 <fonsinchen> It's OK if you don't expect it to identify
17:04:46 <KenjiE20> or use a lot of channels
17:04:55 <PeterT> fonsinchen: +1 to that
17:04:58 <fonsinchen> I was using 3 channels at times
17:05:07 <PeterT> fonsinchen: about giving cargodist another try
17:14:19 <Starn> is there away to connect to online games directly via console or something?
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17:21:26 <Eddi|zuHause> " -n [ip:port#company]= Start networkgame"
17:21:29 <PeterT> Starn: connect ip:port
17:23:56 <Starn> sweet console opens up like every other game ^^
17:24:29 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r19367 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_abstractlist.cpp: -Fix [FS#3665]: List valuator could cause invalid iterators.
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17:26:12 <Starn> now i shall look for a list of servers so i can connect directly ^^ should i use version 0.7 or 1.0RC2?
17:28:32 <Yexo> depends on the servers you want to join
17:29:21 <PeterT> ps.openttdcoop.org:3979
17:29:41 <Starn> the coop ones right now lol
17:33:18 * planetmaker waits to see someone with a stable or testing version trying to connect to our servers :-P
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17:38:52 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r19368 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_abstractlist.cpp: -Codechange: Return early in AIAbstractList::SetValue(), if the value is not modified.
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17:43:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Starn: you can look up the servers on servers.openttd.org
17:45:05 <Starn> k. what revision does coop use? lol
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17:48:30 <PeterT> Starn: channel #openttdcoop, then type !revision
17:51:18 <Starn> so would a newer nightly work? for 1.0RC2 wont connect..
17:51:35 <Rubidium> no, you need the exact version
17:51:49 <OwenS> Starn: Join #openttdcoop, then !dl win32 (or whatever platform you're on)
17:51:52 <Starn> man i already have 4 copys installed ... lol
17:52:43 <PeterT> and download those grfs
17:58:49 <Starn> hmm coop might not be for me i suck at planning lol
17:59:52 <PeterT> You don't have to plan if you dont' want to
18:00:00 <PeterT> you can just vote for others' plans
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18:08:56 <Zuu> Lol, had to comment out the code that bridges rail in the pathfinder in order to test the code that react on crashed road vehicles. :-D
18:19:42 <Zuu> Is it a feature that AIRoad.RemoveRoad succeds even if there is a roadbit on a rail that can't be removed in the middle?
18:20:02 <Zuu> Notice same behaviour is true for players that it removes the road also after the rail.
18:24:57 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19369 /trunk/src/ (rail_cmd.cpp signal.cpp vehicle.cpp vehicle_func.h): -Codechange: EnsureNoTrainOnTrackBits() returns a CommandCost now.
18:28:34 <Eddi|zuHause> "This desk is too small for two cats."
18:28:59 <Eddi|zuHause> *western movie showdown music playing*
18:30:05 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19370 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: EnsureNoTrainOnTrack() returns a CommandCost.
18:31:11 <Alberth> you should buy a bigger desk :)
18:45:41 <Eddi|zuHause> they look like they're on opposite hills with a valley inbetween, watching each other...
18:45:41 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19371 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files): (log message trimmed)
18:45:41 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:41 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: catalan - 5 changes by arnau
18:45:41 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
18:45:41 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: german - 4 changes by planetmaker
18:45:42 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: hungarian - 14 changes by alyr
18:45:42 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: italian - 6 changes by lorenzodv
18:49:14 <Zuu> Oh, a reproduceable crash. :-) Now thats nice. Something goes bad in AIList.
18:50:15 <Alberth> you mean this fix? r19367 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_abstractlist.cpp: -Fix [FS#3665]: List valuator could cause invalid iterators.
18:50:47 <Zuu> Possible, since I run 19364.
18:51:43 <Zuu> The call stack shows that AIAbstractList called std::_Tree that then crashed.
18:51:59 <Yexo> most likely that fix then
18:52:00 <Alberth> yeah, line 102 or 103
18:52:42 <Alberth> I just tell you, I didn't fix it
18:54:50 <Zuu> Well, it sounds like it is the same bug and before producing a test case it is easier to update and see if its the same bug both for me and for you.
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19:03:21 <frosch123> why do all ais suddenly mess with the list iterator?
19:07:18 <Zuu> Or rather, why suddenly did we get this problem I suppose.
19:07:24 <frosch123> the recent ai bugs have been present for a year or so?
19:07:53 <Alberth> it seems to be a consistent pattern. As soon as you get a bug report about something, there is a big chance you'll get another one very soon. I have seen this happening in several projects
19:08:23 <Zuu> My new r19371 build do not crash at the same savegame that crashed my old build.
19:08:30 <frosch123> anyway, zuu, if you encountered today's crash you likely used the list iterator (hasnext, isend, next) after a valuator call
19:08:46 <Eddi|zuHause> it's been the same in scientifical development over the last couple hundred years
19:09:02 <Eddi|zuHause> one discovery is almost always made independently at two different places
19:09:08 <Eddi|zuHause> because "the time is right"
19:09:17 <OwenS> Or: They both build upon the same preceding work
19:09:36 <LA> or one just steals other's work and claims it as his own :D
19:10:14 <Eddi|zuHause> that certainly happens as well
19:10:40 <Eddi|zuHause> but 300 years ago they didn't really have any internet
19:11:05 <Eddi|zuHause> so the russians knowing what was going on in britain wasn't all that common...
19:11:08 <LA> also, wen talking about bug reports, why would anyone steal a bug report and claim it as his own
19:11:29 <LA> KGB, well.. 300 years ago, yees... BUT KGB
19:11:53 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: Scientific discoveries still spread, just slower
19:12:36 <LA> you know it kinda sucks that all the major fundamental discoveries were made either in renaiscance or just after it :D
19:12:46 <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: i don't understand what you mean by this
19:13:06 <LA> now every scientist has to be very specific, can't be omniscientist, like da Vinci anymore
19:13:13 <Eddi|zuHause> once again proof that the english language is very ambiguous
19:13:29 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: Most of the world still knew what happened elsewhere, it just spread slower. And pretty much everyone knew what was happening in Britain as it was the world trade hub
19:13:33 <LA> I think it's spread, as it past
19:13:45 <Eddi|zuHause> the same sentence in german would likely have been much more clear
19:13:53 <Alberth> LA: big discoveries are also done today, but it takes a few decades to recognize them as such
19:14:17 <LA> well, yes, but they are very specific
19:14:33 <OwenS> LA: Was quantum mechanics not fundamental?
19:14:44 <Eddi|zuHause> fundamental discoveries happen as frequently as before...
19:14:44 <Alberth> CERN experiments are quite fundamental ;)
19:15:22 * OwenS still prefers ITER though
19:15:42 <Alberth> or discoveries done in space, but you should another member of this channel about that :)
19:16:17 <Eddi|zuHause> discovering that pluto is not a planet is fairly fundamental ;)
19:16:26 <OwenS> Or rather Iter, because when people ask what "ITER" means and find it means "International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor", they get scared)
19:16:40 <Alberth> as are discoveries of planets at other solar systems
19:17:31 <Eddi|zuHause> well, "discoveries" might be a little high word for those...
19:17:38 <peter1138> also my parsnips are tasty
19:17:44 <Alberth> OwenS: the nuclear fusion thingie? yeah, it would be great if that works
19:18:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: they wanted to be done by 2050
19:18:08 <OwenS> Alberth: Well, the science says it should work. A bit of refinement needed, maybe, but it should finally generate power
19:18:37 <OwenS> Were expecting DEMO to come online and generate power in ~2030
19:18:40 <LA> nuclear fusion does work and has been done in labs, but it currently gives about the same amount of energy out as it gives in.. Cold fusion could be cool tho
19:18:51 <Eddi|zuHause> LA: neptune is cool in that picture ;)
19:19:09 <LA> well that ain't my picture :D
19:19:29 <OwenS> The gas giants look too solid...
19:19:32 <frosch123> yeah, that guy is always somewhat drunken
19:19:57 <OwenS> (Incidentally, I should hopefully be leaving university with a MPhys around the time ITER comes online :P )
19:20:43 <Rubidium> nuclear fusion works pretty well for a long time already, only gaining power from it isn't that efficient :)
19:21:10 <OwenS> Rubidium: Well, it must be admitted stars have been doing it for ~6 billion years
19:21:19 <frosch123> solar panels are not that bad anymore
19:21:27 <Eddi|zuHause> efficiency and keeping the chain reaction running for longer times are the current problems
19:21:37 <frosch123> but we should install some mirror at the other side
19:22:02 <Rubidium> frosch123: that's called "the moon"
19:22:33 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: I was under the impression the reaction is stable, but making the reaction chamber not spall was an issue
19:22:43 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, let's cover the moon with solar panels, and send a microwave beam to earth
19:22:46 <Rubidium> or one needs to place a mirrors at L2 and L4/L5
19:22:59 <OwenS> Rubidium: Earth-Moon or Earth-Sun Ls?
19:24:37 <OwenS> Meh... just build a Dyson Sphere :p
19:24:54 <Rubidium> if you place them at earth-moon's Ls you would need too much mirror movement I think
19:25:18 <Rubidium> not to mention that the moon isn't always at the 'dark' side
19:25:57 <LA> well then just install hovering solar panels :D, they get the hovering energy from electricity they produce
19:26:28 <Rubidium> LA: actually a good idea
19:26:40 <Rubidium> solar sails might do the trick
19:26:54 <Rubidium> especially with concentrating sunlight
19:27:58 <LA> the problem is though, if it's beamed to Earth, what happens if something fails at the receiving end or when the beam is misplaced.. into a major city perhaps
19:28:58 <OwenS> LA: Beam it to a site floating on an ocean? Or in a big desert?
19:29:34 <LA> desert then rather, as it'll just start evaporating water
19:29:43 <Rubidium> actually, transport of electricity is the major problem why we can't build big solar plants in the Sahara to power Europe
19:30:09 <OwenS> It's very true. Conductive losses suck
19:30:29 <LA> On the other hand, the African countries COULD build them to power themselves
19:30:54 <Alberth> just cool it down to a few K, and we have super conductivity :p
19:30:55 <LA> store energy for the night ;)
19:31:42 <OwenS> LA: OK, so we cover half of africa in batteries which need replacing every year and which themselves are toxic
19:32:31 <LA> let's use Atlantic as a battery, who cares about the fish there
19:32:34 <OwenS> Alberth: As for pumped storage... need a big lake. Not that many of those. Also: Cause earthquakes
19:33:05 <Hirundo> Pumping is still more efficient than any battery IIRC
19:33:14 <LA> alright, then someone will invite you to swim someday in Atlantic.. that's the time when we'll turn it on :D
19:33:36 <OwenS> Hirundo: Well, the pumps tend to last a lot longer, but the method consumes more energy
19:33:53 <Hirundo> Sentences that start with *someone will* tend to never happen :)
19:34:38 <Rubidium> someone will join this channel
19:34:43 <Rubidium> someone will leave this channel
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19:36:36 <LA> hmm.. I probably *should* go to sleep or *should* do my homework :S
19:37:31 <OwenS> LA: You probably should, but will you?
19:38:41 <Rubidium> LA: is it English homework? If so, learn the word procrastinate
19:39:06 <Zuu> Oh, running trains without signals in a loop with break down on is not a good idea :-)
19:40:48 <LA> I will keine Hausaufgaben tun..
19:40:55 <LA> I think it's the correct word :D
19:41:47 <__ln__> and i think the verb would be "machen" with Hausaufgaben, but not sure.
19:42:17 <Coco-Banana-Man> either machen or erledigen
19:42:23 <Eddi|zuHause> "Hausarbeit" and "Hausaufgaben" have very different connotations
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19:45:12 <planetmaker> Rubidium: LA: Then you probably want to learn the word "faulenzen" ;-)
19:45:39 <Eddi|zuHause> <Rubidium> actually, transport of electricity is the major problem why we can't build big solar plants in the Sahara to power Europe <-- i thought they started that project recently
19:45:52 <LA> is the faul also some prefix?
19:46:11 <LA> and then it goes separate from the verb in some condition :o
19:46:22 <planetmaker> it's not in this case
19:46:33 <planetmaker> Ich habe heute gefaulenzt
19:46:51 <planetmaker> (I was (bloody) lazy today)
19:48:04 <LA> so.. I can tell my German teacher 'Ich war gefaulenzt gestern'?
19:48:06 <Eddi|zuHause> LA: no, "faul" is the base of the word. means "lazy"
19:48:24 <LA> when she asks me why my homework isn't done
19:48:27 <planetmaker> LA: no it's "Ich habe gefaulenzt"
19:48:28 <Rubidium> LA: maybe something like "Ich habe Aufschieberitis"
19:48:55 <Ammler> Aufgeschoben ist nicht aufgehoben!
19:49:16 <Eddi|zuHause> "Morgen, morgen, nur nicht heute, sagen alle faulen Leute"
19:50:10 * frosch123 usually uses "next week" instead of "tomorrow" in that case
19:50:43 <Ammler> so lala is doing some sprite work?
19:52:04 <planetmaker> LA mach so lala ein paar Grafiken? ;-)
19:54:40 <LA> Nein, Ich kann nicht so gut Zeichnungen zeichnen. :(
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19:58:18 <LA> Aber ich finde malsten nicht interessant.
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20:08:18 <Ammler> actually, he is one of the founder of OpenGFX
20:08:27 <planetmaker> La: your graphics were quite nice for "ich kann nicht zeichnen"
20:08:41 <Zuu> Playing "destroy AI vehicles" is a bit more fun against an AI that fight back a bit. :-)
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20:14:16 <Alberth> 'open company window of the ai, click 4 times at 'buy 25%' ;)
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20:18:44 <DJNekkid> is all cargotypes needed in the action3 for railtypes?
20:19:54 <DJNekkid> my gfx dont show ingame, and i've basicly copied peters ng-track code
20:20:01 <DJNekkid> but i only use cargotype 01
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20:31:50 <frosch123> i guess the action0 properties, esp. railtype translationtable are more important
20:39:16 <peter1138> DJNekkid, you need 01 and 02
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20:43:18 <DJNekkid> i'll try adding 02 as well and see what happens :)
20:44:19 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19372 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Codechange: CheckTileOwnership() returns a CommandCost.
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21:16:46 <Eddi|zuHause> action 1/2/3 form a chain
21:16:57 <Eddi|zuHause> action 3 defines which action 2 to use
21:17:05 <Eddi|zuHause> action 2 defines which action 1 to use
21:17:41 <Eddi|zuHause> (varaction 2 can do a bit more than that)
21:20:20 <Rubidium> Alberth: I doubt it; if DaleStan could have done it I think he would have done it already
21:21:01 <Ammler> looks like patchman josef
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21:58:52 <Eddi|zuHause> has anybody even seen patchman in the last 4 years?
21:59:24 <PeterT> Eddi|zuHause: Yes, in #tycoon
21:59:39 <Zuu> Cyclic dependant AI libraries gives some fat nice error messages :-)
21:59:41 <PeterT> <PeterT> !seen patchman
21:59:41 <PeterT> <patchbot> PeterT: Queried user last spoke 3d 3h ago. patchman was last active in this channel.
22:02:30 <SpComb^> Eddi|zuHause: he's more active on IRC than one might first believe
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22:19:59 <Chruker> Does the RC installer help with installing the opengfx and opensfx? Compared to the manual installs
22:20:37 <planetmaker> but you could just try
22:21:35 <Chruker> I didnt wanted to mess up all directories and batch files I have in place to run other versions.
22:22:29 <planetmaker> each version can safely have it's own dir.
22:22:56 <planetmaker> and they could (should?) share their newgrf and data dirs. Saves you much copying and makes everything available to all versions
22:23:08 <planetmaker> section 4.2 of the readme tells you where to look
22:23:51 <planetmaker> different OpenTTD versions can co-exist each in its own dir without cross-influencing others
22:26:16 <Nite_Owl> sharing the data directory is easier
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22:31:45 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: terkhen * r19373 /trunk/src/water_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r19372): Missing variable declaration.
22:35:40 <thingwath> Nice fix. I was about to complain in the next few minutes. :)
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22:43:40 <HackaLittleBit> can anybody have a look at line 257 water_cmd.cpp , Albert forgot to declare 'CommandCost' ret
22:44:06 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean "-Fix (r19372): Missing variable declaration."?
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23:28:21 <Zuu> Poor bus, got stuck under a bridge :-)
23:29:26 <Zuu> poor me, didn't got to dig a hole under the bridge. :-(
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continue to next day ⏵
