IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-02-15
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06:47:06 <kd5pbo> Terkhen: Good morning.
06:47:25 <lennard> have a happt netsplit morning :)
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09:49:15 <DorpsGek> Commit by alberth :: r19136 /trunk/src (industry_cmd.cpp industrytype.h) (2010-02-15 09:49:10 UTC)
09:49:16 <DorpsGek> -Doc: Added Doxygen comments for industry checking procedures.
09:50:18 <Alberth> ieks, dorpsgek is working for the secret service
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09:55:29 <Alberth> previously, the CIA reported such messages
09:57:10 <planetmaker> under cover operations rulez
09:59:17 <peter1138> CIA appears to have disappeared
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10:16:40 <kd5pbo> CIA didn't disappear, it just went undercover.
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10:24:41 <Alberth> yeah, just heard it on the radio, very sad, 10 people dead :(
10:26:23 <Ammler> __ln__: aren't you the "English only" guy?
10:27:08 <Alberth> two passenger trains collided this mrorning in belgium
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10:28:45 <DorpsGek> Commit by alberth :: r19137 /trunk/src (industry_cmd.cpp lang/english.txt) (2010-02-15 10:28:40 UTC)
10:28:46 <DorpsGek> -Add: Report a more useful error when failing to build a bubble generator.
10:29:18 <__ln__> Ammler: only occasionally.
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11:04:32 <DorpsGek> Commit by alberth :: r19138 trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp (2010-02-15 11:04:27 UTC)
11:04:33 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Rename CheckMultipleIndustryInTown() to FindTownForIndustry().
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11:29:44 <Rubidium> Alberth: you should have said "in Halle" instead of "in Belgium", would be much more fun when Eddi|zuHause wakes up!
11:30:12 <Eddi|zuHause> hey.. i'm awake for 3 hours already...
11:30:41 <__ln__> Rubidium: what's the fun part in shocking someone with false news about a fatal accident?
11:31:09 <Alberth> it is not false news, it is more precise
11:34:25 <Eddi|zuHause> "Address: Buizingen
11:36:47 <kd5pbo> Of all the languages that could be used for the article, why Portugese?
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11:42:43 <Alberth> it is a popular language in the world
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11:47:57 <__ln__> yes, among the ten most spoken ones.
11:49:34 <kd5pbo> Yeah, but for a train collision in Belgium?
11:49:43 <kd5pbo> I'd have expected Flemmish or French or German.
11:50:47 <__ln__> not sure where you saw portuguese anyway.
11:52:02 <kd5pbo> List of languages in which one can view the wikipedia page.
11:54:27 * peter1138 ponders the bug title "Desync in multiplayer"
11:54:36 <peter1138> as opposed to a desync in... singleplayer... ?
11:54:55 <kd5pbo> As opposed to desync in dekitchen.
11:55:23 <Noldo> well there was the lonely wagon syndrome on 0.3.x ...
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14:10:53 <PeterT> IPG: It's 12 AM for him :-)
14:16:44 <peter1138> well to the internet. it's international. you may have heard of it.
14:19:44 <SirSquidness> PeterT: actually, for roboboy, it's 1:18AM. Victoria and New South Wales are inday light savings at the moment.
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14:28:17 <Eddi|zuHause> it's international day of the netsplit
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14:57:12 <Eddi|zuHause> he who does a lot of pitying
14:57:57 <Rubidium> trying to sell crap on TV...
14:58:18 <Eddi|zuHause> don't all fallen stars do that?
15:01:46 <Eddi|zuHause> any ideas what the other guys who played in the A Team do nowadays?
15:02:26 <Belugas> who looks funny now, considering his age... roughly 60
15:02:27 <Rubidium> IIRC one is "playing" in "pushing daisies"
15:04:45 <peter1138> died with lung cancer
15:05:53 <Eddi|zuHause> yay, "program me this for free!"
15:06:33 <Rubidium> peter1138: in how many days will that be on the daily wtf?
15:10:27 <Belugas> funny... on that add, there is a link selling "UK trips from Canada"...
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15:55:57 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r19137 /trunk/src/ (industry_cmd.cpp lang/english.txt): -Add: Report a more useful error when failing to build a bubble generator.
15:55:58 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r19138 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Rename CheckMultipleIndustryInTown() to FindTownForIndustry().
15:55:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r19136 /trunk/src/ (industry_cmd.cpp industrytype.h): -Doc: Added Doxygen comments for industry checking procedures.
15:56:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r19135 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
15:56:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
15:56:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
15:56:01 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 2 changes by
15:56:01 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 1 changes by mantaray
15:56:03 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 127 changes by mantaray
15:56:03 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
15:56:05 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19133 /trunk/src/core/random_func.hpp: -Fix [FS#3621]: [Mac OS X] --enable-desync-debug failed compiling (planetmaker)
15:56:05 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r19132 /trunk/src/ (13 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: No need to end a line with ;;.
15:56:07 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r19134 /trunk/src/misc/ (blob.hpp dbg_helpers.cpp str.hpp): -Fix (r16983, r17219): YAPF debug output was quite broken.
15:56:07 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r19130 /trunk/src/ (command.cpp command_type.h): -Codechange: Use references and inlining in CommandCost.
15:56:09 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r19128 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: CommandCost cost methods return void instead of a copy of *this.
15:56:11 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r19127 /trunk/src/misc/ (dbg_helpers.h str.hpp): -Codechange: Add printf-like warnings to more functions.
15:56:11 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r19129 /trunk/src/station_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3623] (r19122): Don't draw cargo ratings/acceptance when the window is shaded.
15:56:13 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r19131 /trunk/src/economy_type.h: -Doc: Add doxygen comments to some economy variables and constants.
15:56:13 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r19122 /trunk/src/station_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Move cargo drawing to StationViewWindow::OnPaint().
15:56:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r19123 /trunk/src/station_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3617]: Resize station cargo widget when needed to display all accepted cargo types.
15:56:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r19121 /trunk/src/station_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Introduce a variable for the height of the ratings and accepted cargo widgets.
15:56:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19119 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt town_gui.cpp): -Fix [FS#3616]: removing towns (in the scenario editor) that had stations/depots refer to them or vehicles were on the town's road could cause a crash
15:56:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r19118 /trunk/src/order_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3593]: Some buttons in the order gui were raised too soon.
15:56:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r19126 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Silence a warning.
15:56:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r19125 /trunk/src/core/random_func.cpp: -Fix (r18809): Compiling with desync-debug failed.
15:56:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r19124 /trunk/src/lang/ (14 files): (log message trimmed)
15:56:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
15:56:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 3 changes by josesun
15:56:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: english_US - 35 changes by agenthh
15:56:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: esperanto - 27 changes by Ailanto
15:56:29 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
15:56:29 <SirSquidness> holy crpa CIA-1 just woke up...
15:56:31 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
15:56:31 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r19120 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp:
15:56:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix: [NewGRF] Industry property 0x17 was interpreted incorrectly and in some cases circumvented the density difficulty setting.
15:56:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Change: Do not scale the number of industry creations during map creation with the number of available industry types.
15:56:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Feature: [NewGRF] Implement special industry flag 0x10000.
15:57:13 * Rubidium awaits the CIA-1 kicked [flooding]
15:57:41 * SirSquidness crosses his fingers
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15:59:38 <TrueBrain> downside of using email as delivery system ...
16:00:23 <Rubidium> why? Isn't it an upside that notifications don't go lost when their system was down?
16:00:35 <TrueBrain> but the flood is not really wanted
16:00:48 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: The operation succeeded.
16:00:58 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: The operation succeeded.
16:01:36 <Rubidium> the out-of-order notifications are funny though
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16:16:24 <svip> o_o I've been away too long from this channel.
16:16:32 <svip> I totally forgot to train about.
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16:47:21 <sparr> I am trying to figure out why my math for cargo delivery payments doesn't match up in-game
16:47:27 <sparr> can anyone help walk me through the logic?
16:47:51 <Alberth> there is a wiki page about it
16:48:55 <Alberth> I have not read that part of the code, so I cannot help you.
16:49:31 <sparr> I am trying to use the logic on the wiki
16:49:36 <sparr> either I am doing it wrong, or the wiki is wrong.
16:50:58 <Rubidium> ah, it's slightly wrong: read "days" as "2.5 days", i.e. read "4 days" as "10 days"
16:54:34 <sparr> my current sample case...
16:54:43 <sparr> 35 pax at 88km/h delivered about 90 tiles
16:55:07 <sparr> i have confirmed experimentally that 88km covers 90 tiles in about 29 days, which i got algorithmically as well
16:55:16 <sparr> so, 35 pax, 90 tiles, 29 days
16:55:49 <sparr> the simple version says the payment for that should be 35*39*(1-.004*(29+5)/2.5)
16:55:55 <sparr> which seems to be right to within a couple of percent
16:56:30 <sparr> which is easily covered by the simplification of 1/256 to .004
16:56:54 <sparr> but now I'm trying to do the accurate version from [[Cargo_income]]
16:56:59 <sparr> and getting lost somewhere
16:57:29 <Rubidium> 29 days in game => 29/2.5 days in the formulas
16:57:38 <sparr> yes, there's a /2.5 there :)
16:59:32 <sparr> the actual payment im getting is around $2500, 1250 GBP. 35*39*(1-.004*(29+5)/2.5) is 1290. I am happy that that answer falls within the potential measurement error
17:00:26 <Rubidium> @calc 3185 * 35 * 90 * (255 - 11) / 2**21
17:00:26 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 1167.29307175
17:01:00 <sparr> that seems significantly lower than 1290, more so than the slight inaccuracies in converting the formula would allow
17:01:11 <Rubidium> depending on the exact settings of the game
17:02:03 <sparr> the two formula should yield the same number, to within a couple of percent (1% for the conversion from 3185 to 39, 1% for the conversion from 1/256 to .004)
17:02:26 <sparr> the agreed upon answer could then be altered by game settings (which settings, btw?)
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17:03:00 <Rubidium> newgrfs that modify costs, inflation that already happened etc.
17:03:17 <sparr> but back to the formulae not matching
17:05:15 <Rubidium> distance is the manhattan distance, right?
17:06:13 <Rubidium> @calc 3185 * 35 * 90 * (255 - 10) / 2**21
17:06:13 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 1172.07705975
17:06:25 <Rubidium> hmm, nope... doesn't get it closer faster
17:07:09 <Rubidium> you're sure there's no inflation?
17:07:22 <sparr> it would affect both equally
17:07:50 <sparr> these two formulae are supposed to be restatements of the same internal logic, that yields the base delivery price, before other modifiers take effect
17:07:57 <Rubidium> yes, but if 1290 is *with* some inflation, then you can use the formulae and never get to that answer
17:08:17 <sparr> 1290 is the other base formula
17:08:28 <sparr> 1250 is the observed price in game, which i am ignoring for now
17:08:43 <sparr> comparing the two formulae, the *35 and *90 factors are efectively the same in both formulae. one calls for percentage in increments of .004, the other for integer N/255ths, that's a 2% difference.
17:09:48 <Rubidium> @calc 39 * .35 * 90 * (1 - 0.044)
17:10:06 <DorpsGek> sparr: 0.91007751938
17:10:18 <Rubidium> @calc 1174.446/1172.07705975
17:10:18 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 1.00202114719
17:10:29 <sparr> @calc 38.87/39 * ((1/255)/.004)
17:10:29 <DorpsGek> sparr: 0.977124183007
17:10:29 <Rubidium> pretty damn close :)
17:11:05 <sparr> so 2.3% loss between the two loss factors
17:11:13 <sparr> i can live with a 2.3% error
17:11:40 <sparr> but 1174 vs 1290 is a lot more than 2.3%
17:12:00 <Rubidium> yes, that's where I expect something like inflation to happen
17:12:13 <sparr> why do you keep bringing up inflation?
17:12:20 <sparr> we are talking about pre-inflation logic
17:12:30 <sparr> these two formulae are supposed to be the same, to within conversion error
17:12:33 <Rubidium> where does the 1290 come from then?
17:12:40 <sparr> the "simple" formula on the other page
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17:12:51 <Rubidium> @calc 39 * .35 * 90 * (1 - 0.044)
17:13:56 <sparr> sorry, i screwed up the math on my end on that one
17:13:58 <Rubidium> @calc 39 * .35 * 90 * (1 - (floor(29/2.5) * 0.004)
17:13:58 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
17:14:03 <Rubidium> @calc 39 * .35 * 90 * (1 - ((29/2.5) * 0.004)
17:14:03 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
17:14:09 <Rubidium> @calc 39 * .35 * 90 * (1 - ((29/2.5) * 0.004))
17:14:15 <Rubidium> @calc 39 * .35 * 90 * (1 - (floor(29/2.5) * 0.004))
17:14:56 <Rubidium> oh, I've been using 29 everywhere :)
17:14:59 <sparr> pax have an early delivery time of 0 days and a late delivery time of 24 days, so 29 days is a 29+5 day penalty
17:15:00 <Rubidium> @calc 39 * .35 * 90 * (1 - (floor(34/2.5) * 0.004))
17:15:31 <Rubidium> @calc 3185 * 35 * 90 * (255 - floor(34/2.5)) / 2**21
17:15:31 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 1157.72509575
17:15:47 <Rubidium> did I say that "days" in the wiki means "2.5 days in game"?
17:16:07 <sparr> ok, it looks like the two agree for you
17:16:14 <sparr> now i have to figure out why they dont for me
17:17:26 <sparr> are the early/late delivery times also in 2.5 day increments?
17:18:44 <sparr> so "24 days" for late pax is really 60 days?
17:20:38 <sparr> ok, thanks for the help
17:20:56 <sparr> i think my delivery price spreadsheet is getting a lot closer to accurate now :)
17:22:43 <planetmaker> sparr, you know that you have those graphcs also ingame available?
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17:23:42 <sparr> if i could get that patch to compile today...
17:24:05 <sparr> finding the peak in that first graph is non-trivial
17:24:20 <sparr> doing it with a spreadsheet is easy, once the spreadsheet is accurate
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17:37:20 <sparr> planetmaker: does that make sense?
17:37:34 <sparr> my spreadsheet also takes running cost into account, which is a major factor
17:38:23 <SpComb^> I guess some people really care how much money their trains make
17:38:31 <sparr> SpComb^: i care that they make any money at all
17:38:42 <sparr> on a server with high running costs and early era it's quite possible to make a train route that loses money
17:39:06 <dihedral> but for that you don't need a spreadsheet now, do you
17:39:21 <sparr> you do if you want to know before you lose a year and a few thousand dollars testing it
17:40:04 <sparr> for example... at 88km/h, a train carrying 175 pax has peak profit around 290 tiles (of non-diagonal track). it actually turns a net loss past 580 tiles.
17:40:14 <sparr> that's with $24k/yr running cost
17:40:17 <sparr> which is a real example
17:40:19 <dihedral> and, erm, you pay back the loan before you have your first interest debited to your account during the time you fill in your spreadsheet?
17:40:43 <sparr> spreadsheet takes a few seconds to fill out... what does the loan have to do with it?
17:41:03 <dihedral> you lose money in that time :-P
17:41:48 <dihedral> so - if you have the pax figured out - why not pre-calc what you can before you start the game... ends up in a list
17:41:59 <dihedral> uh oh - and you forgot the loading times i think
17:42:23 <dihedral> oh oh - and you forgot the quality of your pax
17:42:36 <dihedral> uh - and i take it you play without breakdowns?
17:42:41 <sparr> yes, loading times and acceleration/decelleration are difficult. i just have an overall "route efficiency" adjustment factor
17:42:57 <dihedral> kids these days - pffft
17:42:59 <sparr> about half the servers i play on have breakdowns
17:43:02 <Rubidium> for the fun of it, with inflation the costs raise faster than the income :)
17:43:20 <dihedral> Rubidium, that is so not fair :-P
17:43:37 <sparr> someone turned on inflation in #openttdcoop one game
17:43:42 <sparr> ruined us a few hundred years in
17:43:54 <sparr> that was when i learned that running costs can go up for older trains
17:44:51 <sparr> the spreadsheet is also useful for figuring out whether it's worthwhile to use one of the both-ends engines (not sure of the term) for higher speed at the expense of lower capacity
17:46:31 <dihedral> i mean - sure, if you have a graph in the game and you think you need that and you like it - go patch
17:48:57 <dihedral> uh - another question: did you take bridges, slopes, etc into account?
17:49:12 <dihedral> how often do you place signals?
17:50:04 <dihedral> how many runs do you expect a train to make in one year?
17:50:24 <dihedral> how's that for cargo - with an empty return journey?
17:51:18 <dihedral> uh - and how long are your trains?
17:52:14 <sparr> bridges and slopes are minor factors. on a well designed network the train runs at full speed most of the time. on a poorly designed network, the poor design is the problem :-p
17:52:32 <sparr> my trains are [usually] the appropriate length for my curves
17:53:33 <sparr> signal placement also part of the network design
17:53:37 <dihedral> so tell me about the cost difference between a 5 tile long train and a 10 tile long train over your mentioned 290 tiles distance?
17:54:38 <dihedral> assuming you have the same length station, and 'good' pax waiting at the station to fill your train immediately
17:56:04 <sparr> assuming 40 pax per car, 2 cars per tile, 1 engine, 24000GBP running cost, 10% overall wasted efficiency due to all the small factors... 5 tile train earns you 93GBP per pax, 10 tile train earns 101GBP per pax
17:56:52 <sparr> some of the smaller factors like acceleration time probably matter a lot more for really long trains
17:57:06 <sparr> i am mostly considering 3-6 tile trains
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17:57:43 <sparr> at that size it matters a lot more how long the train is
17:58:09 <dihedral> so in theory the 10 tile long train would be way better than the 5 tile long train
17:58:33 <sparr> I would say they are close enough that the "small factors" probably make enough of a difference to be important
17:58:57 <sparr> 10% difference is well within the range of all of those factors combined
17:59:06 <sparr> also, backing up a moment, tell me about "good" pax
18:01:00 <dihedral> so the 5tl train would bring you on a full load 33480 and the 10 tl train would bring 76760
18:01:32 <dihedral> which is more than double
18:01:47 <dihedral> not including the fact, that the train needs more power to gain full speed
18:01:51 <dihedral> thus traveling longer
18:01:57 <sparr> because a 10tl train has more than double the cars and pax of a 5tl train
18:03:12 <dihedral> 'good' pax - just to assume your pax has the same rating at the station - badly rated 'cargo' pays worse ;-)
18:04:21 <sparr> interesting... citation?
18:04:29 <sparr> i'm not so good at looking through the openttd source yet
18:04:34 <sparr> and i havent seen that info on the wiki anywhere
18:04:44 <dihedral> now try to take something like your HQ or a statue into account
18:04:59 <sparr> statue i am familiar with. what effect does the HQ have?
18:05:06 <sparr> i have asked about HQ before and no one would tell me
18:05:36 <sparr> games with undocumented rules bother me :(
18:05:46 <dihedral> it aint undocumented
18:05:57 <sparr> err, i already have that page open
18:06:14 <sparr> the words "hq" or "headquarters" do not appear on it
18:08:48 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd
18:10:25 <sparr> I'm trying to improve the wiki where I can, but someone has to share the knowledge first
18:12:48 <ccfreak2k> During any save, which function is called first?
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18:19:19 <DJNekkid> can i use CC on some rail sprites? (for "new rails")
18:22:27 <sparr> why does the wiki say that the vehicle speed bonus to station rating caps at 17%?
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18:23:13 <sparr> i think that assumes a max vehicle speed of 255km/h
18:24:30 <Alberth> iirc things on maglev run faster
18:24:33 <frosch123> ttd had a maximum speed of 255. however the unit is not km/h
18:25:09 <Macha> Can I kick an AI? I accidentally forgot to disable them for a MP game I'm playing.
18:25:13 <frosch123> hmm, no, you are right, trains can be faster
18:25:30 <frosch123> Macha: "stop_ai <company number>" in console
18:26:12 <sparr> ge->days_since_pickup is in 2.5-day units?
18:26:22 <sparr> continuing wtf @ days vs days
18:26:54 <Alberth> doxygen improvements are welcome
18:27:14 <frosch123> that describes quite detailed what is done
18:27:47 <sparr> :) @ more documentation
18:27:53 <sparr> :( @ another location that has to be updated
18:30:13 <sparr> "If the max. speed is above 255 speed units, 255 is used instead." <-- this is not apparent in the code, unless ge->last_speed is truncated before the rating code is called
18:30:32 <sparr> also, :( @ comparing possibly-different ttdpatch vs openttd rules
18:30:51 <frosch123> byte last_speed; <- interesting definition of truncation
18:32:10 <frosch123> sparr: they are not different. and if they are different you should create a big huge red bug report about it. (except ttdp screwed it up)
18:32:12 <sparr> int b = ge->last_speed - 85; <-- waste of 3 bytes of memory :-p
18:32:50 <sparr> well, 2 bytes, since you need a signed short to hold an unsigned char minus a constant
18:33:20 <sparr> so, thanks to finding the appropriate source, and the new documentation...
18:33:25 <SpComb^> an int will probably be faster than a short, and the short will probably be optimized to an int anyways...
18:33:57 <sparr> I am still lacking the statue/hq equivalence
18:34:19 <sparr> maybe HasBit(st->town->statues, st->owner) counts a hq as a statue?
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18:44:20 <sparr> only set in two places i can find
18:44:24 <sparr> neither seem to apply to HQs
18:46:01 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r19139 /trunk/src/lang/ (15 files): (log message trimmed)
18:46:01 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:46:01 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
18:46:01 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: czech - 12 changes by Hadez
18:46:01 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 2 changes by habell
18:46:03 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
18:46:03 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
18:47:27 <Alberth> sparr: c->location_of_HQ == INVALID_TILE <-- apparently there is a tile in the Company
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19:01:48 <sparr> Alberth: we are discussing whether it affects station rating
19:02:54 <Alberth> I thought you were looking for the statue storage
19:04:18 <sparr> in the station rating code the only place i can see that hq might have an effect is when it checks for a statue
19:04:23 <sparr> if having a hq sets the statue bit
19:04:34 <sparr> but i cant find anywhere that having a hq would set the statue bit for the town
19:05:14 <TrueBrain> neither does it affect station rating (or at least, not as far as I know)
19:05:19 <sparr> that is the conclusion i am coming to, but i give dihedral the chance to support his claim
19:05:31 <sparr> worse than undocumented features are wrongly-rumored features :)
19:05:43 <devilsadvocate> TrueBrain, i believe it does. certain forum postings suggested that it does (something to do with ECS)
19:05:51 <sparr> a lot of players think pax/goods delivery affects city growth
19:06:04 <TrueBrain> devilsadvocate: I don't do GRF, so I wouldn't know
19:06:34 <sparr> Alberth: yes, but location_of_HQ could be used somewhere to set the town->whatever->statues bit, that's what i was searching for
19:06:38 <devilsadvocate> no, i mean one of the suggestions was to build statues and HQ to increase rating so that industries dont close
19:06:54 <sparr> devilsadvocate: that could be the same misinformation that dihedral is suffering from
19:06:55 <TrueBrain> never knew HQ had any affect on the game
19:07:02 <sparr> TrueBrain: afaik you are right
19:07:02 <Rubidium> HQ has no direct effect, although indirectly it provides pax (and mail?) and thus might lower the ratings due to increased numbers of waiting passengers
19:07:10 <Alberth> sparr: there is also not a town file in that list
19:07:30 <sparr> Alberth: i don't know enough about all the files to say that for certain, which is why i come back here each time i have more information
19:07:47 <TrueBrain> the wiki url on our wiki says it all
19:08:02 <TrueBrain> (the one dihedral gave ;))
19:08:35 <frosch123> planetmaker: Ammler: did you encounter the desync again with patched clients/servers? or did you stop playing?
19:13:45 <sparr> TrueBrain: the one dihedral gave contradicts what dihedral said. hence the investigation.
19:14:12 <TrueBrain> I guess he made a small typo; happens to all of us
19:17:01 *** [com]buster is now known as Combuster
19:18:17 <planetmaker> frosch123, When I tested it, I didn't encounter a desync.
19:18:43 <frosch123> how long did you test?
19:18:55 <planetmaker> But... I unpatched the server again in the assumption that the patch would assure 100% desync chance
19:19:01 <planetmaker> maybe 15 minutes?
19:19:12 <frosch123> 15 sounds like long enough
19:21:30 <Bluelight> Installing new router.. brb
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19:36:30 <DorpsGek> Bluelight: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
19:38:31 <planetmaker> frosch123, 15 minutes is an indicator. But sometimes it also works without the patch for that long...
19:38:32 <ccfreak2k> During any save, which function is called first?
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19:47:47 <Manio> any developer here? Got a question. I wanted to add myself method to AILog (AILog::ToFile(const char *message)), compiled then and run, but in game this method is not visible...
19:47:57 <Manio> do I have to register this new method somewhere or what? :D
19:48:37 *** Bluelight_ has joined #openttd
19:49:04 <Manio> is this the right chat for that? :P
19:50:07 <planetmaker> this is the right channel, no worries
19:50:38 <Rubidium> in src/ai/api run the 'export' script
19:51:05 <Manio> hm ok, let me try that :)
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19:52:53 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r19140 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Move variables closer to their first use.
19:53:49 *** Bluelight_ is now known as Bluelight
19:54:39 <Manio> Hmm... any way to do this 'export' on windows?
19:54:58 <Rubidium> with mingw, or manually mess with the .sq files
19:59:34 <Manio> I'll go with 'manually'. Will see how it ends
20:14:15 <Manio> Yeah :D It worked :)Thanks for help :) Do you have some knowledge base for people who want to mess around the source codes? like how do they know that there is some kind of export script, and you need to run it, and stuff? Or you have to find out that kind of stuff on your own?
20:14:57 <Rubidium> there's an (outdated) dev handbook on the wiki, otherwise this channel's useful
20:15:11 <planetmaker> Manio, there's the wiki... you could update it with this piece of advice.
20:15:55 <Manio> Yeah I know wiki :) But still, it doesn't have all info
20:16:13 <planetmaker> Yes, of course. Add it. It always needs *someone* to do it ;-)
20:16:18 <planetmaker> It's a wiki after all.
20:17:25 <Manio> Plus, it's huge project after all. Men, it compiles a long time
20:18:05 <Sacro> it compile you long time
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20:19:40 <Manio> You mean it wasn't correct english or? English is not my primary language, sorry
20:20:27 <planetmaker> Manio, IIRC your English was correct...
20:20:40 <planetmaker> Don't let funny English-men tell you otherwise :-P
20:21:08 <Rubidium> huge? long compiles?
20:21:19 <Manio> Maybe he meant some kind of irony... how can I know
20:21:44 <Dessous> Has anyone here had problems with music in OpenTTD in Linux? The game loads the music and I can select the pak, but when I try to play it, it just cycles the playlist around over and over again as if it, for some reason, couldn't play the files
20:22:55 <Rubidium> Dessous: probably because you haven't installed extmidi
20:23:24 <Dessous> dbg: [driver] Successfully probed music driver 'extmidi'
20:24:26 <Rubidium> Dessous: doesn't mean that extmidi is installed, just means that there was no other driver (it's basically the fallback)
20:25:14 <Rubidium> Manio: Debian compilation takes less than 15 minutes on one particular machine, compiling gcc (the compiler) takes over 9 hours
20:28:24 <peter1138> Sadly, compiling OpenTTD now takes me 11 seconds :(
20:28:37 <planetmaker> 11 seconds?! I envy you
20:28:44 <planetmaker> hello andythenorth :-)
20:28:48 <andythenorth> 11 seconds? have you switched to OS X?
20:29:01 <Rubidium> a little over 1 minute for a full recompile
20:29:08 <Rubidium> without ccache or other tricks
20:29:20 <peter1138> Oh... yeah, ccache is in use, hehe.
20:29:45 <planetmaker> Fast quad core? More?
20:30:15 <planetmaker> Rubidium, I'll have to test. Give me a bit
20:30:21 <Rubidium> planetmaker: nah, your "standard" 1 year old laptop
20:30:22 <peter1138> it used to be quicker
20:30:35 <peter1138> 3GHz quad core. Nothing special these days...
20:30:40 <Manio> huh nice, I use vmware + winxp with visual studio 2008 for now, and full rebuild of solution takes about 5 minutes x.x
20:30:48 <dihedral> peter1138, and make -j what?
20:31:02 <planetmaker> hm... yes, I need 5 minutes with -j4 on my dual core
20:31:27 <planetmaker> I can cut off a bit by using the less optimizing LLVM
20:31:33 <dihedral> i just needed 2 mins and 20 secs pm
20:31:37 <Rubidium> 66 seconds without ccache, -j3; < 10 seconds with ccache, -j3
20:31:52 <peter1138> 28 seconds with a debug build
20:31:52 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: lol, times with ccache are a bit silly :p
20:32:03 <peter1138> not so long ago it was half that
20:32:07 <planetmaker> hm... what do I do wrong? ;-)
20:32:08 <Rubidium> Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU T9400 @ 2.53GHz
20:32:19 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: gcc-llvm ;)
20:32:23 <Rubidium> planetmaker: use Apple's compiler?
20:32:32 <peter1138> Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q6600 @ 2.40GHz
20:32:34 <planetmaker> I've 2GHz only, but that should make 50% difference max
20:32:40 <peter1138> except it's at 3GHz
20:32:50 <dihedral> Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU E8400 @ 3.00GHz
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20:33:12 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, usually not gcc-llvm, but gcc-4.2.1
20:33:13 * andythenorth intel core 2 Duo 2.53
20:33:13 <TrueBrain> Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU T5750 @ 2.00GHz
20:33:20 <ccfreak2k> Intel(R) Atom(TM) CPU N270 @ 1.60GHz
20:33:47 <SmatZ> x86_64 AMD Phenom(tm) 9950 Quad-Core Processor AuthenticAMD GNU/Linux
20:34:00 <ccfreak2k> I haven't gotten on the dual core train yet.
20:34:29 <Rubidium> BCM3302 V0.8 <- doesn't compile OpenTTD though
20:34:36 <Manio> jeeez... what have I started with my little "compiles a long time" :P
20:34:39 <TrueBrain> dep-check alone takes 20 seconds here :p
20:34:50 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: 0.7? or trunk?
20:35:52 <Manio> btw, any... easy... way to apply patch from revision ~12000 to current rev? :P quite a big patch
20:36:16 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: lies... use the 0.6 branch :)
20:36:30 <TrueBrain> current rev gets a new meaning :p
20:36:39 <Rubidium> but other than that: nope, no easy way
20:36:48 <Manio> :D well, I meant trunk recent rev :P
20:38:12 *** [com]buster is now known as Combuster
20:39:54 <andythenorth> are we doing anything fun?
20:40:13 <TrueBrain> @kick andythenorth okay
20:40:13 *** andythenorth was kicked by DorpsGek (okay)
20:40:20 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
20:40:22 <TrueBrain> @kick andythenorth okay
20:40:22 *** andythenorth was kicked by DorpsGek (okay)
20:40:28 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
20:40:29 <TrueBrain> damn, this is too easy :p
20:40:29 <peter1138> i reckon i need some fast ssd
20:40:48 <peter1138> also the newgrf scan takes too long :s
20:41:05 <peter1138> at least, when files are not in disk cache
20:41:30 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: really, your efforts have the significance of a flea on a mountain compared to the rest of my life these days :o
20:41:44 <TrueBrain> awwwhhhhhhh ... poor andythenorth
20:41:47 <TrueBrain> I wont annoy you anymore :)
20:41:56 <TrueBrain> @voice andythenorth
20:41:56 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +v andythenorth
20:42:01 <TrueBrain> that should make your life a tiny bit better ;)
20:42:11 <andythenorth> what goes with salmon? pasta, potato or chips?
20:43:14 <Markk> There you go, pretty fast SSD. :)
20:43:24 <peter1138> pasta, or new potatoes, or, if deep fried and battered, with chips
20:43:55 <peter1138> Markk, let me get a mortgage...
20:43:56 <dihedral> Markk, what? the BBU aint installed??
20:44:11 <Rubidium> andythenorth: only if they're gnocchi!
20:44:19 <dihedral> i love the fact that it says 'only' next to the 15.5k EUR
20:44:45 <dihedral> oh - and note: shipping kosts: free(1) :-D
20:45:12 <dihedral> (*) Prices are plus VAT and plus shipping
20:45:12 <dihedral> and are valid for shipments within Germany only
20:45:24 <dihedral> no wonder shipping is 'free'
20:45:28 <Markk> dihedral: I can by it from Sweden (They ship here).
20:46:25 <Belugas> pasta? Potatoes? With Salmon????? NEVER!!! Rice, with Garlic!
20:46:48 <dihedral> or garlic with rice?
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20:51:01 <Belugas> grrr... great... now i'm hungry
20:51:17 <Belugas> ho... a little more than an hour to go :D
20:51:28 <dihedral> pizza, burgers, candy, cake, ...
20:51:40 <Rubidium> "Chausson aux pommes"? Just come and get it :)
20:52:19 <dihedral> hehe - all you can eat :-P
20:52:21 * peter1138 plays with sooperlooper
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20:59:09 * andythenorth wonders if Yexo's industry patch should also check for objects (transmitter etc)?
21:02:08 * andythenorth wanders away to eat and think about more exciting industry patches
21:02:44 <peter1138> oh. stereo works better when you're outputing both channels
21:14:31 * andythenorth awards himself a beer (cold)
21:16:06 <Xaroth> potatoes might work if you have a large chunk of salmon
21:16:19 <Xaroth> but then small potatoes, baked
21:38:08 * andythenorth thinks it would be exciting to extend industry var 68
21:40:49 <andythenorth> for fun with....electricity! zzzzzzzaappppp
21:43:39 <andythenorth> peter1138: you dangled Road Types the other day....any news :o
21:44:34 <sparr> trying to wrap my head around newgrf callbacks...
21:44:39 <planetmaker> dessous work best when they nearly not work :-P
21:45:26 <sparr> how does a newgrf do things like adjust the cargo payment formula?
21:45:50 <frosch123> sparr: do you know about "decision trees"?
21:46:39 <frosch123> fine, the root of your tree is called "action3", the branches are "varaction2" and the leafs are "callback results"
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21:50:00 <sparr> is there a good place to begin reading on this?
21:50:39 <frosch123> the tutorials are all about vehicles and stuff, so quite far from callback 145
21:51:34 <frosch123> anyway, you only need action8, varaction2 and action3 for your needs
21:51:54 <sparr> I'm not so much trying to actually write one as to just understand how they work
21:52:19 <frosch123> well, you start from the root (action3), and can then branch depending on various variables
21:52:32 <frosch123> one of them is the "callback id", i.e. what is actually queried
21:54:09 <frosch123> in the branches you can also use some computations in a single-accumulator-processor style before further branching. however, it is still a tree, so not turing complete
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21:55:07 <andythenorth> sparr: try pikka wiki...let me look it up for you :)
21:55:15 <sparr> that last bit is what I'm interested in
21:55:19 <sparr> the types of calculations that can be done
21:55:46 <andythenorth> not very detailed, but the easiest starting point
21:56:29 <planetmaker> +-*/ mod << >> xor
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21:56:59 <frosch123> sparr: you have a single accumulator, the usual integer arithmetics for 8, 16 and 32 bit, signed and unsigned. lots of register for temporary storage and for industries also some memory for longer storage duration
21:58:26 <sparr> part of my curiosity was sparked by someone suggesting making goal server functionality into a new type of newgrf
21:58:36 <frosch123> wrt. accessing entities on the map, most is "private" :p
21:59:32 <frosch123> sparr: i guess the biggest restriction is that you have no global variables for bigger scale control flow
22:28:28 <planetmaker> Rubidium, did you update ouch.diff?
22:30:31 <Rubidium> yes, it's a very useful name
22:30:53 <planetmaker> has a high recycling value :-P
22:31:34 <Rubidium> there aren't that many 'ouch' bugs :)
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22:40:12 <__ln__> Was ist das richtige Verb für "Studieren" in der Schule?
22:40:51 <planetmaker> abhängen? harzen?
22:41:30 <planetmaker> uhm... The serious answer is only the first. 'lernen'
22:42:12 <planetmaker> well. It's not wrong. But 'studieren' means to study something specifically or very intensively.
22:42:24 <planetmaker> And to study *something* at university
22:43:36 <planetmaker> in that case it neither needs to be intensively or specific :-P
22:44:48 <planetmaker> (the other words I gave are slang for 'doing nothing' ;-) )
22:47:49 <planetmaker> ps.openttdcoop.org:3982 <-- Rubidium if you like to join / test yourself. I'll do so in ~15 ... 20 minutes
22:48:10 <Rubidium> got flaky internet at the moment :(
23:09:29 <planetmaker> Rubidium: I desynced :-(
23:10:34 <planetmaker> hm... wait... I still had my #ifdef __APPLE__ uncommented in that trunk checkout...
23:10:53 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: "studieren" is only used for _serious_ studies, at a university.
23:12:02 <Eddi|zuHause> likewise, you also don't find "Studenten" at a school, but only "Schüler"
23:15:54 *** [com]buster has joined #openttd
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23:19:56 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: gotta keep in mind and ignore influence from other languages.
23:20:27 <Rubidium> planetmaker: the server is running with YAPF caching disabled and your client's using my patch, right?
23:20:46 <planetmaker> Both have your patch
23:21:04 <planetmaker> I currently update to latest svn and try there
23:23:30 <planetmaker> (previously I tested with r19068)
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23:37:47 <planetmaker> Rubidium: works fine so far
23:45:13 <Rubidium> that's good news, and when you join with a second client? Does that stay too (just to catch any long term cache issues)
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23:45:36 <Rubidium> as I assume that the client you're testing with now joined quite at the beginning
23:50:12 <planetmaker> I re-joined 4 times now with two different instances
23:50:35 <planetmaker> and the server ran a bit before I joined
23:51:44 <Rubidium> lovely, it's only a tad slower :(
23:51:51 <Rubidium> with multitile waypoints
23:52:53 <planetmaker> [00:27] <ProZone> *** planetmaker has unpaused the server. [00:35] <ProZone> *** planetm4ker joined the game [00:36] <ProZone> *** planetm4ker #1 joined the game [00:39] <ProZone> *** planetm4ker joined the game
23:53:20 <planetmaker> 3 times joined so far then actually
23:55:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19141 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#3619] (r18421): look-ahead for multitile waypoints 'made up' data that shouldn't go into the cache, causing desyncs in MP
23:59:58 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19142 /branches/1.0/: [1.0] -Branch: the 1.0 series
continue to next day ⏵