IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-01-26
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00:17:51 <devilsadvocate> do the marshalling yard in the industrial station renewal do anything?
00:18:49 <PeterT> other than be station art?
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01:35:18 <PeterT> let's say hey to every person in the channel :-P
01:38:26 <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth how's FIRS going?
01:39:05 <andythenorth> right now, it's not. I'm working. But I'm close to releasing some seriously improved production code for processing industries.
01:40:58 <dragonhorseboy> btw is the nightly basically the 'everything in firs' one or? been pondering that for two nights now
01:49:56 <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: yes the current nightly is 'everything in FIRS'.
01:50:42 <andythenorth> when planetmaker and I get some more economy parameter code done (maybe 50% done right now) that will change
01:51:12 <dragonhorseboy> well as long as there's the option to still use 'everything' :P
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04:22:25 <devilsadvocate> is there any way to stop primary industries from closing for want of 'good service' with ECS vectors?
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12:59:53 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18918 /extra/website/bananas/templates/bananas/tosInner.html: [Website] -Update: the TOS of the content system to mention music sets
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13:19:51 <DorpsGek> Goulp: I have not seen yorick.
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14:05:08 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: glx * r18919 /trunk/src/ (string.cpp string_func.h): -Fix (r15371): strcasestr() return should not be const
14:13:33 <DorpsGek> peter1138: I have not seen tdev.
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14:17:52 <peter1138> ah well, i gave up RoR devving
14:17:53 <TrueBrain> it stores those things on disk ...
14:18:03 <glx> no but I don't tdev came since
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15:14:49 <peter1138> glx, i feel like a ottd user trying to submit patches to ottd ;)
15:15:42 <peter1138> my little fix patches get ignored because they need review... meanwhile huge untested sweeping changes get commit
15:16:04 <peter1138> nah, for RoR i mean :)
15:16:39 <glx> RoR is weird sometimes :)
15:16:52 <glx> I get hang on start or no sound (but not always)
15:17:11 <peter1138> i never got it worked after the the migration to ogre 1.6 (huge untested sweeping change...)
15:17:41 <Rubidium> peter1138: we're not that bad w.r.t. fix patches I hope, okay with non-fix patches and arbitrary features
15:20:36 <peter1138> a lot of people like heightmaps
15:21:15 <Ammler> but download all isn't possible with gui anymore?
15:21:45 <Rubidium> except when trying to join a server
15:24:13 <Yexo> heightmaps and scenarios do better then I expected
15:24:48 <Ammler> well, I have a feeling a lot just download everything...
15:25:11 <TrueBrain> then all should have equal amount of downloads
15:26:06 <Ammler> that would need a count/day stats
15:26:07 <Rubidium> except there is 1 base graphics set, 47 heightmaps and 91 newgrfs
15:27:04 <Yexo> a lot of people who downloaded opengfx 2.0 first probably downloaded opengfx 2.1 later
15:27:17 <Yexo> so it's not strictly true that everyone only downloads 1 base graphics set
15:28:28 <Rubidium> and as the installer isn't accounted for, it's not even needed that they download it once
15:28:42 <Ammler> that is why basesounds is that low
15:30:18 <Rubidium> and because you can't download it in 0.7
15:30:18 <Ammler> anyway quite nice numbers, MP clients should rise :-)
15:30:23 <SpComb^> Ammler: I've improved the pngtile stuff recently, btw
15:30:57 <Singaporekid> spcomb is pngtile
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15:31:19 <Ammler> SpComb^: do you have a kind of patch/script to make screen from save on dedicated server?
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15:34:12 <SpComb^> Ammler: I'll give it a shot, though, I think it's possible
15:34:55 <Singaporekid> I can't load pvl_20080614_2040_giant.png for some reason
15:35:54 <SpComb^> Singaporekid: there's some bug with the error handling, but I haven't updated the caches for those yet
15:36:17 <peter1138> hmm. nice cup of tea. that's an idea.
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15:36:31 <Singaporekid> It's rather nice
15:36:34 <nicecupoftea> I've just had a nice cup of tea
15:36:50 <Ammler> !s/tea/coffee/ and I am with you :-)
15:36:52 <Singaporekid> no nicecupoftea, you are the nice cup of teas
15:37:14 <nicecupoftea> nicecupof{tea,coffee,coldDrink}
15:37:29 <nicecupoftea> is that a valid set?
15:45:32 <Belugas> i'd rather go for coffee, as always, but tea can be good too :)
15:45:59 <Belugas> mostly in sumer. iced... with lemon
15:46:13 <Belugas> ... and we are in winter :(
15:46:15 <nicecupoftea> Shame about the Mac port issues/
15:46:28 <nicecupoftea> I was looking forward to game of 1.0b3
15:46:33 <nicecupoftea> But now I must compile it myself
15:46:44 <jonty-comp> that's hardly the end of the world!
15:47:16 <nicecupoftea> I can't think of anything more pressing, to be quite honest
15:49:41 <SpComb^> Ammler: I know, it's a stupid build script...
15:50:28 <SpComb^> Ammler: sudo aptitude install libpng-dev
15:51:18 <Ammler> oh, indeed, that should be in the Readme :-$
15:51:38 <SpComb^> the libpng bit actually is
15:51:45 <SpComb^> the make dirs is missing
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16:15:55 <SpComb^> Ammler: you have to compile openttd with a blitter, so for me that meant installing libsdl-dev
16:16:44 <SpComb^> although that temporarily runs it as a dedicated server, one could probably patch in a --giant-screenshot option
16:17:24 <SpComb^> Ammler: also, when you build the cache, I highly suggest you use --background 0xD7
16:19:44 <Ammler> well, that means it isn't possible to make a screen on a dedicated server without the whole X
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16:20:10 <SpComb^> Ammler: no, there's no video
16:20:21 <SpComb^> installing libsdl does pull in a bunch of deps, but...
16:22:08 <Ammler> well, we aren't root on the server our ps is running
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16:23:01 <SpComb^> then generate the giant screenshots somewhere else? :)
16:23:28 <SpComb^> I presume it would be possible to compile the blitters without SDL
16:23:30 <Ammler> might be better anyway :-P
16:24:15 <Rubidium> SpComb^: yeah, I presume that too :)
16:25:26 <SpComb^> Rubidium: I couldn't find any ./configure option for it, though
16:26:18 <Rubidium> SpComb^: that's because there's nothing disabling it at compile time
16:26:38 <SpComb^> hmm, a dedicated build includes the blitters?
16:26:38 <peter1138> there is if you're building dedicated only
16:27:04 <peter1138> in source.list, just remove the if/else/endif block in the blitter section
16:27:23 <Rubidium> used to be not that case
16:27:35 * SpComb^ wonders what magic is used to register the blitters
16:28:07 <peter1138> @openttd commit 14913
16:28:07 <DorpsGek> peter1138: Commit by peter1138 :: r14913 trunk/source.list (2009-01-08 14:33:32 UTC)
16:28:08 <DorpsGek> peter1138: -Codechange: (Well, Buildchange:) Don't include unnecessary blitters or drivers when built as dedicated-only.
16:28:48 <SpComb^> Ammler: you can hack source.list then
16:29:14 <Ammler> yes, now I need to translate your lighty config to apache config
16:29:20 <peter1138> hmm, how do i show AV settings and patch level on a debian system?
16:29:25 <SpComb^> Ammler: you can run bin/dev-server for testing
16:29:48 <blathijs> peter1138: AV settings?
16:29:56 <SpComb^> Ammler: although it has some memcached stuff hardcoded in it, so either install memcached or remove those lines
16:30:33 <peter1138> patch level: show the latest installed patch/hotfix
16:30:45 <peter1138> yeah right, because all OSes are like windows
16:31:04 <SpComb^> peter1138: is this your security certification thing again?
16:31:19 <SpComb^> call them and tell them they're silly
16:31:29 <blathijs> peter1138: Ah, anti-virus? :-)
16:31:36 <SpComb^> peter1138: what certification?
16:31:39 <blathijs> peter1138: You could give the latest DSA number?
16:31:40 <peter1138> cat /etc/debian_version
16:31:45 <peter1138> does that count? :s
16:32:00 <peter1138> blathijs, where would that be?
16:32:00 <blathijs> patched for all DSA's up to DSA-<somenumber>
16:32:11 <blathijs> peter1138: security.debian.org? :-)
16:32:39 <SpComb^> Ammler: python-werkzeug on debian
16:32:50 <peter1138> right, but i need to show that it *is* patched
16:33:59 <blathijs> peter1138: Well, if you recentely upgraded, than you should be patched against all published DSA's AFAIK :-p
16:34:07 <SpComb^> Ammler: if it complains about memcache stuff, then you can skip that by just removing the memcache/cache stuff from dev-server
16:34:16 <blathijs> peter1138: But well, that's not really helpful, I guess
16:34:26 <Ammler> well, it seems there is no werkzeug for suse
16:35:19 <peter1138> nope. *i* know it's up to date (and i also know that doesn't mean it's secure, of course) but they want ... proof :s
16:35:48 <SpComb^> Ammler: you can "install" it with a symlink
16:36:12 <blathijs> peter1138: For what, exactly?
16:37:05 <peter1138> or rather, for the auditors of
16:37:24 <bartavelle> peter1138: apt-get update, check that all your source work and you have security, then apt-get upgrade, and it tells you how many packages need to be updated
16:37:32 <bartavelle> if it says 0, you have proof it is up to date
16:37:46 <Rubidium> peter1138: or wait a few days and say it's 5.0.4 :)
16:39:01 <peter1138> bartavelle, that's probably the closest :(
16:39:24 <bartavelle> PCI-DSS is BS anyway, just lie to them
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16:43:41 <Belugas> we all know it's freaking BS
16:56:16 <peter1138> "last record screenshot"
16:56:27 <peter1138> "provide screenshot of last instance of full PAN"
16:56:28 <nicecupoftea> Time for a cup of coffee
16:56:58 <peter1138> who would store full PANs from transaction data in a database?
16:57:14 <peter1138> actually probablys somebody does :s
16:58:47 <Belugas> personal account Number
16:58:57 <Belugas> short for credit card number
17:03:10 <peter1138> all sorts of bullshit
17:03:29 <peter1138> ideally, for pci-dss, we'd not do anything with credit cards, hehe
17:03:44 <peter1138> especially not store any details
17:05:38 <Ammler> SpComb^: dev_server doesn't find the libs in pngtile/lib
17:06:03 <SpComb^> Ammler: right, you need to run it with the environment magic
17:06:12 <SpComb^> LD_LIBRARY_PATH="lib" PYTHONPATH="lib:." ./bin/dev-server
17:06:49 <SpComb^> and you also need to compile the pypngtile.so extension.. :/
17:06:58 <SpComb^> for which you need cython and the python dev headers
17:06:59 <Belugas> but wehn we do have to deal with stored card numbers (sometimes required by banks), we should have better protection then banks themselves :S
17:07:20 <SpComb^> Ammler: I could write a web frontend in C instead :)
17:09:12 <Ammler> hmm, yes, still doesn't work, so I guess, easyier to make it running with apache?
17:09:21 <SpComb^> fonsinchen: tsk, your cargodist/master compiles with warnings
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17:09:34 <SpComb^> Ammler: did you compile the pypngtile.so extension?
17:09:46 <Ammler> no, it complains about that
17:09:47 <SpComb^> Ammler: it won't work without... the Python frontend needs to use the C backend library
17:10:06 <Ammler> ah, I would need that for fcgi too?
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17:10:41 <SpComb^> I can send you the cython'd .c file if you don't have Cython, but you'll still need the python dev headers to run `setup.py build_ext -i`
17:10:54 <SpComb^> (well, `python setup.py build_ext -i`)
17:11:16 <SpComb^> fonsinchen: src/table/station_land.h, specifically
17:13:23 <Ammler> cython is available from suse repos
17:14:06 <SpComb^> cython's still adding major features recently, so it's a little unknown if a given version will work with a given .pyx :/
17:15:06 <Eddi|zuHause> [16:46] <Belugas> ... and we are in winter :( <-- a friend of mine came back from canada and he complained that here the temperature is 20°C lower than there...
17:15:16 <Eddi|zuHause> he was in vancouver, though...
17:16:16 <SpComb^> Ammler: huh, stupid - but you might be able to work around that by just adding a 'ctypedef int size_t' to the start of the python/pypngtile.pyx
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17:19:02 <SpComb^> any dist releases that I make will include that anyways...
17:19:52 <nicecupoftea> XML based NewGRF NFO? :/
17:20:14 <jonty-comp> I always wanted to use XML in GRFs
17:20:39 <nicecupoftea> it won't be ready for months, anyway
17:23:48 <Ammler> do I need that pyhton path to the env too?
17:26:30 <Rubidium> Belugas: that's because (big) banks can never fail
17:26:33 <Ammler> (at least, if I am able to run it, everyone can ;-)
17:27:53 <SpComb^> Ammler: you need the pypngtile.so in PYTHONPATH
17:28:08 * Belugas laughs hard at Rubidium's assessmemt :D
17:28:59 <Rubidium> Belugas: and the worst thing is, if they make a big loss they can lend money for free and give themselves huge bonuses
17:29:15 <Rubidium> so for the bank any situation is win-win
17:29:44 <Ammler> SpComb^: how do I build that lib?
17:30:03 <rait> is there some way to turn on extended debugging messages to file?
17:30:39 <Belugas> [12:20] <jonty-comp> I always wanted to use XML in GRFs <--- that's insanity, profanity, wasting-timy, uselessy
17:30:41 <Rubidium> specifically: openttd -d9 > file
17:30:48 <rait> yes, but can't you force more info out of it?
17:31:31 <Rubidium> but if it's hanging in the shutdown of the sound driver then there's not much information (if any at all) about that event
17:31:51 <jonty-comp> Belugas: oh well, I will always be terrible at NFO anyway
17:32:06 <SpComb^> Ammler: `python setup.py build_ext -i` will compile the stuff in python/
17:32:21 <SpComb^> Ammler: and if you dump the pypngtile.c in there, it shouldn't invoke cython
17:32:49 <SpComb^> I should integrate that into the Makefile, but that hasn't happaned yet
17:33:32 <Ammler> well, I still have gcc errors
17:33:51 <SpComb^> errors from the pypngtile.c?
17:34:01 <SpComb^> make sure you have the Python.h
17:35:25 <Ammler> right, checking python-devel, I assume
17:35:38 <jonty-comp> this sounds confusing, you should've just written it in php!
17:37:45 <Belugas> cool... generating a grf using a web page...
17:38:11 <Ammler> ok, seems working now the "cache issue" :-)
17:38:13 * Belugas runs even further away
17:39:07 <SpComb^> Ammler: make sure you use --background 0xD7
17:39:18 <glx> <@Rubidium> specifically: openttd -d9 > file <-- on windows a conversion to console mode may be needed
17:39:48 <SpComb^> jonty-comp: it wouldn't be possible to write this in pure PHP
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17:39:52 <rait> Rubidium, no output makes it to file, all end's up in terminal
17:40:14 <planetmaker> read glx' comment, rait ^
17:40:20 <glx> yes -d opens a terminal window because it's a GUI app
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17:41:12 <nicecupoftea> I'm partial to XML
17:41:45 <nicecupoftea> There's a wealth of parsers already available, and it's human readable.
17:42:13 <Ammler> it woks now on my local desktop
17:43:06 <TrueBrain> Belugas: stop directing people to me with questions you know end up in endless debates :p :p :p
17:43:41 <SpComb^> Ammler: ok, great... the build process just needs a little improvement :)
17:44:04 <rait> since there is no point in doing this, i'm abandoning my idea to save a pointless log
17:45:26 <Ammler> SpComb^: the --background should be used fro building the png cache, I assume?
17:45:53 <planetmaker> Ammler, server-side screenshots or what are you two guys working on?
17:47:45 <Ammler> he, a 50MB giant screen is using 500 MB cache :-)
17:48:26 <peter1138> you may have heard of compression
17:48:28 <Ammler> so our archive with 150 games, hmm
17:48:31 <Eddi|zuHause> <nicecupoftea> [...] XML [is] human readable. <-- that's a big lie...
17:49:29 <Eddi|zuHause> and especially, it's not any more human readable than well-commented NFO is...
17:50:05 <peter1138> well-commented NFO... hehehe
17:50:13 <planetmaker> ^ If I had to re-invent the grf wheel XML wouldn't be my choice ;-)
17:51:06 <Belugas> purrrrrrrrrrr purrrrrrrrrrrr
17:51:08 <Eddi|zuHause> XML is so general-purpose, it's no use for any _specific_ purpose...
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17:51:40 <peter1138> nfo probably wouldn't be my choice either ;)
17:52:18 <planetmaker> hehe :-) Neither mine. Alas
17:52:42 <TrueBrain> Xaroth: stop doing that :p
17:53:25 <TrueBrain> @kick Xaroth hide harder
17:53:25 *** Xaroth was kicked by DorpsGek (hide harder)
17:54:16 <planetmaker> Xar:oth maybe ? ;-)
17:54:42 <nicecupoftea> neither are commented
17:55:32 <TrueBrain> I like it planetmaker :)
17:55:38 <planetmaker> a way to hide your :o :-P
17:56:01 <Xaroth> can't use : in nicks :/
17:57:12 <planetmaker> nicecupoftea, and now compare the information density, given you know that the real sprites are just followed by x and y coordinates / offsets
18:00:43 <nicecupoftea> I'd trade that 15% file increase for the massive savings in "I don't get NFO lol" threads any day
18:01:00 <planetmaker> nicecupoftea, the NFO equivalent of the right side would be: -1 * XX 01 <n> 01 "Sherlock Holmes: Complete Novels A" 02 "Sir Arthur Canon Doyle" 00
18:01:33 <nicecupoftea> I was trying to make the point within this hour :)
18:01:36 <frosch123> did i miss some funny forum topic?
18:01:39 <planetmaker> with XX and <n> being numbers. <n> = 2 actually and XX the byte length of the whole thing
18:01:55 <planetmaker> nicecupoftea, yes, but for me the rhs is not readable.
18:02:21 <Eddi|zuHause> nicecupoftea: so, what's your attempt of making an Action 6 "readable" while still keeping to understand what's actually going on?
18:02:28 <nicecupoftea> What's the ISBN of The Great Gatsby?
18:02:51 <Rubidium> nicecupoftea: something ending with a X?
18:03:19 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: don't copy the silly action 6 case, hardly 0.1% of grfs use action 6
18:03:28 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's the typical DaleStan-question ;)
18:03:28 <Prof_Frink> Now that's a brilliant idea.
18:03:35 <TinoDidriksen> Storage format doesn't matter whatsoever as long as you have tools to work with it.
18:03:48 <Rubidium> nicecupoftea: so far I've found at least 4 ISBNs, so I reckon you would be able to fin it yourself relatively easily too
18:04:09 <nicecupoftea> Oh don't be so obtuse!
18:04:18 <nicecupoftea> I'm doing the trolling here
18:05:09 * Eddi|zuHause spots a place on The List :p
18:06:29 <glx> anyway action 2 will be fun ;)
18:07:27 <planetmaker> action2 is already fun. Why should it be less fun anywhere else :-P
18:10:16 <SpComb^> Ammler: yes - if you use `ls -slh`, you'll see that the 500MB .cache actually occupies less disk space :)
18:10:23 <SpComb^> Ammler: but yes, the .cache files will be big..
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18:15:30 * fjb wouldn't want to type XML by hand.
18:15:41 <SpComb^> fjb: use Eclipse instead
18:17:34 <fjb> What a win over simply typing nfo in any texteditor. And who makes the Eclipse module for the special nfo version of xml? Not to mention the DTD.
18:17:40 <Ammler> SpComb^: you need cython also if you have the .c file
18:18:47 <frosch123> did i mention, that ttdviewer is parameterised using and .xsd validated .xml :p
18:19:05 <SpComb^> Ammler: hmm yes, it imports it..
18:19:44 <SpComb^> you can remove all the two lines that have 'build_ext' and change the .pyx to a .c
18:20:53 <SpComb^> I tried to skip the setup.py and do it right from the Makefile, but that ended up being a bit difficult
18:21:58 <fjb> XML is usable as a configuration file format and good for Document interchange. It is even useful as an instant messenger protocol, but I doubt its usability as a programming language syntax.
18:22:12 <SpComb^> fjb: disagree on the configuration file format
18:22:34 <glx> ini is good enough for configuration
18:22:48 <SpComb^> ini isn't always enough either
18:22:55 <SpComb^> now lua, that's a good configuration file format :)
18:23:08 <fjb> SpComb^: Depends on what you need. ini is often good enough but not always.
18:24:07 <nicecupoftea> Lua's a lovely lightweight scripting language in its own right
18:24:24 <fjb> XML ist good for machine to machine communication, not for human to machine.
18:24:52 <nicecupoftea> XML occupies the middle ground
18:27:02 * frosch123 ponders mentioning the semantical similiarities between xml and action2 chains
18:28:28 * fjb would prefer a macro assembler.
18:29:03 <frosch123> just that action2 are not imperative, nor touring complete :p
18:29:17 <nicecupoftea> /me appends XML NewGRFs to the 'Multithreaded 3D engine' roadmap entry
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18:45:26 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r18920 /trunk/src/lang/ (afrikaans.txt dutch.txt unfinished/vietnamese.txt):
18:45:26 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:26 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 4 changes by Maccie123
18:45:26 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: dutch - 3 changes by habell
18:45:26 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: vietnamese - 638 changes by myquartz
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18:46:37 <frosch123> quick, we need a new language, the number of untranslated strings is about to drop below 20000 :o
18:51:03 <frosch123> esperanto, ido and friends are already contained in the 20406
18:55:00 <Ammler> frosch123: support iso3 languages and I could translate to mine...
18:55:02 <frosch123> Assamese has a nice is639 code
18:58:34 <frosch123> Ammler: was there any decision about de_CH ? i mean we also have en_GB, en_US, pt_BR, pt_PT, ...
18:59:06 <Ammler> frosch123: de_CH would be possible
18:59:17 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I believe (in general) it is best to wait for WT3.1 (if ever) before doing more of those languages. Then you can make a sublanguage of a main language ;)
18:59:28 <TrueBrain> (no idea if that is for the best, but okay :p)
18:59:35 <frosch123> though i have no idea about ##winlangid :)
19:00:04 <frosch123> TrueBrain: the initial idea was to keep the number of untranslated strings above 20000 :p
19:00:13 <TrueBrain> then that won't help :p
19:00:32 <TrueBrain> I can fake the number for you?
19:00:55 <TrueBrain> I wonder if I can find enough hours free to review the whole of Dutch before 1.0.0 final ...
19:01:46 <Ammler> de_CH isn't really interesting, but gsw would be :-)
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19:08:25 <Zuu> "1970s" is that 1970-1979 in English? (IIRC it is when you speak about 100 years of time the English got the years 'wrong')
19:09:35 <SpComb^> Ammler: I had a go at fixing up the setup.py and `make dist` - the dist version should be easier to build, they include the pypngtile.c, and `make lib/pypngtile.so` should work with a little luck now
19:14:02 <SpComb^> I added lib/pypngtile.so to all, so it should build by default without running setup.py
19:15:18 <SpComb^> so the dist versions don't need: a) make dirs b) setup.py - but the Makefile stuff for building the python extension is a bit of a hack
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19:15:38 <SpComb^> but ah, build scripts aren't so important as long as they work :P
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19:20:14 <nicecupoftea> Zuu: 1970s or '70s = 1970 to 1979, correct. We do not get any years wrong whatsoever.
19:22:35 <frosch123> ... at least 9 years of the eighth decase of the twentieth century
19:27:24 <nicecupoftea> Zuu are you still developing PAXlink?
19:27:45 <Zuu> Not a lot, but there is some improvements in SVN.
19:28:03 <Zuu> It is just that there is enormous amount of things that could be done.
19:28:19 <nicecupoftea> I think it would make a good addition to Pathzilla
19:28:38 <nicecupoftea> Using buses locally then connecting to the higher level network using airports
19:29:32 <Zuu> I've implemented a herustics that re-arange town-to-town connections to maximize profit. However the re-arangeer isn't really as good as it could be at the moment.
19:29:38 <planetmaker> go make that connection, then, nicecupoftea ;-)
19:29:44 <planetmaker> they're GPL licensed afaik.
19:30:01 <Zuu> IIRC all AIs on BaNaNaS use GPL v2.
19:30:03 <nicecupoftea> I'm sure they are! I've got a couple of things on the wishlist, but work comes first :/
19:30:36 <planetmaker> I still miss an AI developed by more than one person. That'd have better potential concerning maintenance.
19:30:50 <planetmaker> and more attention to the nasty details and advanced concepts.
19:30:51 <Zuu> One thing in the SVN-version that works fairly good is that it doesn't put that many bus stops anymore so it maintains a good rating in the town.
19:31:18 <nicecupoftea> I think the AI developments are the most interesting part of OpenTTD
19:31:24 <Zuu> planetmaker: Indeed, that I think would work better for the future.
19:31:40 <nicecupoftea> I'd love to see a competition like the Infinite Mario AI contest
19:31:47 <nicecupoftea> but for OpenTTD, of course
19:31:52 <planetmaker> they have been done.
19:32:13 <planetmaker> You could also do them yourself locally. Not much effort, just make an AI only game or give yourself an observer company
19:32:37 <planetmaker> there certainly are threads in the NoAI subforum
19:32:53 <planetmaker> they were mostly done when NoAI was still in development, though
19:33:08 <Zuu> Yep, and Rubi made some evil competition maps :-)
19:33:22 <planetmaker> so... there's no quite recent one - but I haven't heart of any ground-breaking changes from most AIs either :-)
19:33:36 <Zuu> One where big parts of the map were at sealevel with water that aten up all the sea-level land. :-)
19:33:41 <planetmaker> But I guess... as usual: many small improvements.
19:34:43 <planetmaker> also, the relative improvements have to become smaller... quite naturally ;-)
19:34:46 <nicecupoftea> Perhaps a genetic AI-creating algorithm is required!
19:35:05 <nicecupoftea> Set it running and come back the following month
19:35:49 <nicecupoftea> It would be much easier if someone else did it for me. Preferably for free.
19:36:34 <planetmaker> oh right. Rubi might have a point
19:36:48 <nicecupoftea> Zuu: Does PAXLink orientate the airport bus stations towards the town?
19:37:03 <nicecupoftea> Or are they always on the southern edge?
19:37:10 <Zuu> nicecupoftea: nope, they are always placed at the same edge.
19:37:40 <Zuu> Makes things simplier in the already long code.
19:39:11 <Zuu> Counts them to 5130 lines atm. So it is not very big compared to other things but still not just a small script.
19:40:29 <nicecupoftea> Perhaps a community AI is required.
19:40:57 <planetmaker> like the community patch pack(s)
19:41:14 <Zuu> (not like community patch packs)
19:41:39 <Zuu> But perhaps like a few people with enough time get togeather and write it. :-)
19:42:14 <Zuu> I would probably qualify for the task but I've planed to work 45 hours a week on my thesis :-)
19:43:12 <Zuu> And I got some nice ideas for Junctioneer too and yesterday a frind showed me the euler project with lots of interesting problems to solve. :-)
19:43:57 <Alberth> you can not (re)define the subject of your thesis? :p
19:44:39 <Zuu> Well it is about traffic engineering so it is not very far, but still not quite the same stuff.
19:50:04 <Zuu> My thesis is related to the analytical models for calculating the capacity of roundabouts using gap-theroy. At best you could apply some gap theory in OpenTTD for railway intersections.
19:51:45 <nicecupoftea> "Solving NP-complete network problems using Open Transport Tycoon" would be better
19:52:01 <nicecupoftea> attempting to solve*
19:53:22 <Zuu> OpenTTD* (TTD doesn't stand for 'Transport Tycoon Deluxe' in the OpenTTD name)
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19:59:36 <SpComb^> the trademark lawyers won't
19:59:38 <nicecupoftea> Is it a Master's thesis?
20:00:00 <nicecupoftea> How's it coming along?
20:00:08 <Zuu> Just started one week ago :-)
20:00:22 <Zuu> So I'm at the boring litterature review :-)
20:01:12 <nicecupoftea> What is your alma mater?
20:02:00 <Zuu> alma? My program name is "Communications and transport systems" and my focus area is called "Traffic Informatics".
20:02:31 <nicecupoftea> Your college, I mean.
20:02:48 <Zuu> Ah, I'm at Linköping University in Sweden.
20:04:27 <nicecupoftea> it has a good reputation for control engineering, you must be a good student!
20:05:35 <Zuu> At least the automatic control courses at our program are known to be hard to pass.
20:06:42 <Zuu> But if the university make me a good student I don't know :-)
20:07:36 <nicecupoftea> Are you going to apply for a Doctoral position?
20:08:45 <Zuu> Nope, I'm hoping to start working at a company where they do traffic analyses etc.
20:08:45 <SpComb^> huh, dreamspark's product key doesn't give me multiple activations
20:09:20 * planetmaker must look up Linköping. I *think* I've been there already.
20:09:25 <Zuu> Might return to university later but for now I want to get out and work a bit.
20:09:28 <planetmaker> Do they have an agricultural branch?
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20:10:01 <Zuu> Hmm, not that I am aware of.
20:10:20 <planetmaker> then I mix up towns maybe :-)
20:11:06 <Zuu> They are mostly in technology stuff. The technical part has 15 000 students and the entire university is 25 000 students.
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20:11:59 <Zuu> The others are medical stuff, economy, arts and probably some thing else important that I have forgotten.
20:15:05 <Ammler> SpComb^: did you test the script you made?
20:15:12 <Ammler> (to creating a giant screen)
20:15:24 <SpComb^> Ammler: I think so... might have changed it afterwards
20:15:56 <Ammler> it closed openttd without making the screen
20:15:57 <Zuu> planetmaker: Lund might have an agricultural branch.
20:16:22 <Ammler> he, the server is still working on my first screen :-)
20:16:32 <SpComb^> Ammler: the screenshot goes somewhere random
20:16:41 <SpComb^> I found it in my ~/.openttd/
20:16:43 <planetmaker> nah, it wasn't Lund :-)
20:18:15 <Alberth> SpComb^: random as in the same directory of openttd.cfg?
20:19:02 <TrueBrain> but which openttd.cfg is it using? :p
20:19:07 <SpComb^> Alberth: dunno, I ran ./foo/bin/openttd... there's a ./foo/bin/openttd.cfg, but it went into ~/.openttd/
20:22:10 <Zuu> SpComb^: In that case shouldn't you cd into the bin-dir and then execute ./openttd?
20:22:23 <Alberth> it doesn't seem to use foo/bin/openttd.cfg then
20:23:22 <Alberth> eg load is also relative to openttd.cfg, and at my system it makes a difference to do ./foo/bin/openttd vs cd foo/bin ; ./openttd
20:23:25 <planetmaker> well.. skara sounds different than Linköping :-p
20:23:26 <Zuu> All programs will by default have the same current directory as you are standing in when you execute them.
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20:24:01 * SpComb^ is on the phone with Microsoft automated product activiation service
20:24:08 <Zuu> planetmaker: Was it in Skara that the aricultural branch is located?
20:24:29 <SpComb^> sending me the SMS now
20:24:43 <SpComb^> fun disclaimer about how they don't store your number or personal details
20:24:44 <planetmaker> Zuu, I *think* so.
20:25:01 <planetmaker> but I wouldn't give my life for it ;-)
20:25:53 <Zuu> IIRC they have one of the major churches there but it isn't as far as I'm aware a university town but for sure it could have a branch there.
20:25:57 <SpComb^> so yay, now my Windows Server 2008 R2 is activated
20:26:13 <SpComb^> because I called a random number and typed in some random numbers and then got an SMS with some random numbers back and typed those in
20:26:19 <SpComb^> but I guess that deterrs piracy
20:26:34 <dragonhorseboy> spcomb just a OT question but I take it you took the server offline or did the poor computer hiccup?
20:26:47 <SpComb^> dragonhorseboy: took it offline for the giant-screenshot script that I wrote for Ammler :)
20:27:13 <planetmaker> Zuu, I don't quite recall; it was my sister who studied there for a few months. And I was only once there... 6 years ago.
20:27:15 <dragonhorseboy> oh ok..I was going to take a look and see if the game ever progressed anywhere at all or not since yesterday :P
20:28:08 <dragonhorseboy> well anyway .. on-topic (why did that seem funny that 'on' and 'off' are the same first letter?) question but anyone here know about nfo coding a locomotive?
20:28:14 <dragonhorseboy> there's one thing I've been trying to figure out for a while
20:28:37 <nicecupoftea> Man, NFO is so old, get with the times and use XML NewGRF
20:28:58 <dragonhorseboy> nicecupoftea... does xml work with the patch? ;)
20:29:08 <nicecupoftea> alas, it does not work at all :(
20:29:43 <Zuu> nicecupoftea: Don't start an NFO / XML war unless it is a war that you want :-p
20:29:53 <nicecupoftea> We have already had one!
20:30:01 <nicecupoftea> I cannot take another
20:30:02 <SpComb^> gah, VS2008 install fails on WS2008R2
20:30:17 <planetmaker> bitching around is quite annoying, though, nicecupoftea
20:30:33 <dragonhorseboy> zuu I'll just pick nfo from the start for compactibility sake and ignore anything that has to do with other one ;)
20:30:53 <andythenorth> can xml succinctly encode logic?
20:31:07 <nicecupoftea> oh god, here we go
20:31:21 <andythenorth> xml is a pain in the ass
20:31:24 <nicecupoftea> I'm supporting Lua, anyway
20:31:39 <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth I've heard that quite often from many people .. and I got to agree with you
20:31:45 <dragonhorseboy> anyway about my actual question...
20:31:53 <planetmaker> nicecupoftea, before you discuss an issue you might want to learn about it before...
20:32:07 <nicecupoftea> lighten up, planetmaker
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20:33:43 <TrueBrain> we should put punishements on discusing such things
20:34:26 <nicecupoftea> Python-esque punishments?
20:34:55 <dragonhorseboy> I've tried look at the action0 wiki on ttdpatch .. I set property 19 to 00 and property 22 to 40 = that'll get me a powered wagon with no exhaust but no way to cancel the steam sound?
20:35:53 <SpComb^> argh, don't tell me that Visual Studio 2008 can't be installed on Windows Server 2008 R2
20:38:10 <SpComb^> You must use the Role Management Tool to install or configure Microsoft .NET Framework 3.5
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20:40:35 <dragonhorseboy> ammler takes a while to make initial connection but then downloads quickly otherwise
20:40:54 <SpComb^> the main bottleneck is actually memory
20:41:12 <SpComb^> providing that it compiled with -O2
20:41:46 <SpComb^> Ammler: the dev-server isn't particularly slow, but it's only a single process/thread
20:42:22 <SpComb^> I can do ~1000 of those 256x256 tiles per second on my 3.16Ghz desktop C2D
20:42:35 <SpComb^> projects.qmsk.net is an eight-core 2.0Ghz xeon with 1GB ram
20:42:57 <SpComb^> having enough memory to fit the entire .cache helps a lot
20:44:53 <SpComb^> well, sleight exxageration, 1.820s for 1000 random tiles with a warm cache
20:46:41 <SpComb^> (written to /dev/null, measured using `time ./bin/pngtile data/20100123/1936.png -o /dev/null -W 256 -H 256 --benchmark 1000 --randomize -q`)
20:47:43 <planetmaker> anyway, it's a great tool, SpComb^ :-)
20:48:01 <TrueBrain> it sure looks cool ;)
20:48:08 <SpComb^> just don't be scared with the high VIRT/RES/SHR numbers
20:48:17 <SpComb^> it's just a big mmap(), so the memory use is managed by the kernel
20:48:38 <planetmaker> he... max zoomed-out it IS slow
20:48:44 <TrueBrain> RSS is the only useful number anyway ...
20:48:48 <TrueBrain> VSZ is fake .... :p
20:48:55 <SpComb^> but that's why there's support for memcached
20:48:57 <planetmaker> you don't get faster network connection than I have here right now. And it's loading and loading
20:49:33 <SpComb^> caching the tiles at zl=-4 only takes up a couple MB :)
20:49:41 <planetmaker> next step would be a 10GBit network card, peter1138 ;-)
20:49:45 <TrueBrain> SpComb^: how do you do it? (missed all conversation above related to it :p)
20:49:49 <planetmaker> few workplace pcs have that :-P
20:49:57 <planetmaker> including that connection to the backbone
20:50:04 <SpComb^> TrueBrain: magical C code!
20:50:25 <peter1138> planetmaker, 100GBit, come on!
20:50:38 <TrueBrain> SpComb^: I meant: make screenshot once, and process it, or make lots of screenshots?
20:50:57 <planetmaker> peter1138, for your desktop? come on ;-)
20:51:00 <SpComb^> TrueBrain: decode the screenshot into mmap() (500MB for a 512x512 map), and then ecode small PNG's from there
20:51:11 <peter1138> You did say "you don't get faster" ...
20:51:20 <SpComb^> TrueBrain: so yes, it takes a giant screenshot as input
20:51:25 <TrueBrain> decode into mmap, lol :)
20:51:25 <planetmaker> exageration for the sake of clearity ;-)
20:51:45 <Zuu> Alberth: Yep, I still try to fix bugs that people report. Maybe not the same day or week but whenever I do an update I usually try to fix all reported bugs for it.
20:51:50 <TrueBrain> SpComb^: nice idea :)
20:51:51 <SpComb^> well yes, it passes a pointer into mmap()'d memory to png_read_row
20:52:10 <TrueBrain> SpComb^: then either you have no clue what mmap is or what it does :p But okay, I understand what you are trying to say :)
20:52:40 <Alberth> Zuu: ok, I am not in a hurry
20:53:20 <Zuu> Alberth: If you don't mind can you post it to the CluelessPlus thread? That way I'll have the least chance of forgetting it.
20:53:29 <SpComb^> TrueBrain: well, it reads/writes the pixel data directly from/to an mmap()'d memory region
20:53:47 <Alberth> sure, I was just wondering whether that was needed :)
20:53:49 <TrueBrain> SpComb^: lets not go into that :) But still, nice job :)
20:54:00 *** Muddy is now known as Muddy-
20:54:02 <SpComb^> so the processes have like 1332M VIRT, 205M RES and 199M SHR
20:55:45 <TrueBrain> depends where you mmap it to :)
20:55:57 <SpComb^> Ammler: so make sure it's compiled with -O2, deploy a memcached, and run as many FastCGI/WSGI/whatever processes as you have CPU cores
20:57:04 <TrueBrain> SpComb^: why don't you run a static application over it, which cuts the map in very small pngs, and store that on the disk? Disk access is relative fast for any (sane) httpd
20:57:20 <TrueBrain> (using io-passhtrough, for example, moves files from one end of the kernel to the other, allowing direct access)
20:57:51 <SpComb^> TrueBrain: you could do that as well, but you'd have a *lot* of those tiles
20:58:32 <SpComb^> encoding the 256x256 and 512x512 PNGs (zl=0, zl=-1) from cache is fast enough to compare favourably with static files imo
20:58:58 <SpComb^> and then the tiles for the higher zoom levels can be cached (memcached, http cache, whatever)
20:59:26 <TrueBrain> well, if I take my latest work on mapgen, I stored static files for a few zoom-levels. Depending on the required zoom, it collected those files. Increased everything a lot
20:59:35 <Ammler> the server is using 1GB now :-)
20:59:41 <TrueBrain> (mostly because you no longer had to recalculate zooms :p)
21:00:01 <SpComb^> Ammler: the memory use is managed by the kernel's page cache
21:00:34 <SpComb^> so it should be smart enough to drop the .cache stuff from memory when it's needed for something else
21:00:43 <SpComb^> but yes... page cache thrashing sucks
21:02:08 <TrueBrain> SpComb^: tried picking up the file and mmaping it to the shm part of your memory? Could give you a nice speed-boost
21:02:23 <SpComb^> TrueBrain: what's shm got to do with anything?
21:02:37 <TrueBrain> just for fun, try it
21:02:56 <Alberth> Belugas: the discussed topics do not give many hints about the nature of the channel :)
21:02:58 <TrueBrain> (instead of your memcache, for example)
21:03:26 <SpComb^> it's mmap'd with MAP_SHARED, so it's shared across all the processes already
21:03:34 <SpComb^> (and PROT_READ only for the viewer)
21:03:53 <SpComb^> TrueBrain: the memcached is used for the 256x256 output PNGs only
21:04:11 <SpComb^> mmap() is used for the raw pixel data
21:05:52 <TrueBrain> k, just trying to help :) Spend a lot of time speeding up Mapgen, so I have my fair share of knowledge about map manipulation and its speed ;)
21:06:17 <SpComb^> not sure what you mean with "mmap it to the shm part of your memory"
21:06:57 <SpComb^> but the input .png file isn't used at all for generating the smaller output PNGs
21:08:45 <TrueBrain> yeah, I like the idea; now live map view :p Mwhahaha
21:09:15 <SpComb^> but it really sucks because you can't cache anything
21:11:46 <TrueBrain> bah, you made me open mapgen
21:13:10 <TrueBrain> one of my non-published projects :)
21:13:22 <TrueBrain> be careful with which you open
21:13:29 <TrueBrain> 22MiB is too big for most browsers :p
21:13:49 <Belugas> hi Alberth. It was something about an unexpected delay in the left channel of my part, while playing with peter1138. I realized it was a wrong positionning of the wave file
21:14:24 <TrueBrain> MASS EFFECT JUST CRASHED! NOOOOOOOOooooooo :(
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21:14:36 <TrueBrain> go play with your girlfriend
21:15:45 <Xaroth> I have better stamina then her ;)
21:15:46 <SpComb^> hmm, no, it didn't really like image007
21:15:53 <Belugas> girls amd wifes tend to fall asleep quite fast indeed.
21:16:10 <SpComb^> TrueBrain: so heightmaps?
21:16:12 <TrueBrain> nope, FF gets dumped here too when I try
21:16:43 <SpComb^> I only handle the big PNG image once, when I decode it to .cache - after that, everything comes from the .cache
21:17:13 <TrueBrain> I so hope hope hope hope it did the autosave correctly, and it is loading it now ...
21:18:07 <TrueBrain> 'Resume' gave me an older game (ME2 is fucked up like that) .. lets hope 'Autosave' isn't damaged ....
21:18:29 <TrueBrain> SpComb^: mapgen handles 11GB of initial source data :p
21:20:17 <SpComb^> if it load it from disk
21:23:07 <Alberth> (it crashedm just added a bug report)
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21:24:17 <Zuu> I know PathZilla like to build loopbacks for its drive-trough stops.
21:25:22 <Zuu> Ah, reading your post, it actually only uses that one station.
21:27:18 <Alberth> it only has that one station.
21:28:41 <Alberth> lorries do not get unloaded at all, so they all just circle around all the time
21:30:07 <Zuu> At least from my memory I recall that Zutty make a farily static calculation method for calculating the amount of trucks needed and does not adopt the fleet based on the amout of cargo waiting or so.
21:32:11 * SpComb^ wonders how to show file extensions in WS2008R2
21:32:18 <SpComb^> they removed the menus :P
21:33:06 <dragonhorseboy> industry output + rv or rail wagon capacity + distance involved to the receiving industry = calculate required purchases
21:33:18 <dragonhorseboy> thats the way I would had the ai figure it out but eh
21:33:33 <pod> how do I reduce the size of the MP chat box?
21:33:43 <dragonhorseboy> pod...by unpausing the game?
21:33:58 <dragonhorseboy> pod..why did you think nothing was moving
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21:34:15 <pod> I'm talking to my friend, etc
21:34:24 <dragonhorseboy> thats what irc or msn are for next time :P
21:34:25 <pod> the box takes up the left of the screen ;'(
21:35:52 <Alberth> I always put my irc client underneath the openttd window with just a few lines visible
21:36:05 <SpComb^> hmm, great, cmd.exe crashes when I run `make bundle_zip`
21:39:23 <dragonhorseboy> hm guess I'll have to find a coder to hire then if this stupid loco can't work properly >_<
21:53:35 <Ammler> SpComb^: does it local cache the images?
21:54:09 <SpComb^> ah. I'm not actually sure, it's one of the things I need to check on
21:54:17 <SpComb^> so I'm afraid that it probably doesn't
21:55:47 <SpComb^> the other issue is that the link-to-this-view images tend to be larger than 1MB, and thus don't fit into memcache
21:56:24 <nicecupoftea> The coop map live image is fantastic, who wrote it?
21:57:29 <dragonhorseboy> eoin .. in your brain :P
21:57:35 <Ammler> nicecupoftea: you mean the screen or the app showing the screen?
21:58:06 <nicecupoftea> well, whatever generates it
21:58:08 <Ammler> the screens are from #openttdcoop
21:58:18 <JamesD> I've got some Questions about OTT
21:58:22 <planetmaker> and it's not live ;-)
21:58:31 <nicecupoftea> How often does it update?
21:58:40 <JamesD> Have there been any changes to the economics of the game to make it more challenging?
21:58:45 <Ammler> that is currently only a test
21:58:57 <Ammler> and the dev-server is very unstable
21:59:19 <Ammler> SpComb^: the console looks funny ;-)
21:59:32 <nicecupoftea> Is it a client generating the image or a custom server build>
21:59:44 <SpComb^> nicecupoftea: the image is just a standard giant screenshot
21:59:57 <nicecupoftea> broken up in to 256^2?
22:00:21 <nicecupoftea> what's unstable about it?
22:00:28 <Rubidium> night mr white whale
22:00:43 <SpComb^> Ammler: if it displays connection errors, then those are most likely just the client/browser closing a connection
22:00:50 <planetmaker> nighty nigh, Belugas
22:00:52 <Ammler> nicecupoftea: just the testing environment
22:02:38 <Ammler> SpComb^: I run it in a screen window, might not be the most clever thing ;-)
22:02:59 <JamesD> Sorry to break in - but have there been many changes to the economic model of the game to make it more challenging?
22:03:46 <SpComb^> Ammler: as long as you don't manage to crash it :P
22:03:53 <SpComb^> Ammler: what's the hardware configuration you're running it on?
22:04:24 <Rubidium> JamesD: not really, but with NewGRFs you can change quite a bit of the economy
22:04:57 <Ammler> a vserver with host quad core: Intel(R) Xeon(TM) CPU 3.20GHz
22:06:04 <Ammler> but as you know, it runs now with only one thread
22:06:29 <Ammler> so if multiple users visit it, it is a bit too busy....
22:06:47 <JamesD> Just a little bit of background - I used to playt this game as a kid and I've known about your project for a while and been looking to play it at some lan parties
22:07:13 <JamesD> Although the game seems pretty easy at this point and I was hoping there had been some changes on that
22:07:35 <planetmaker> Then make sure to use the basemod newgrf to change all prices to incredibly high ;-)
22:07:50 <nicecupoftea> JamesD: there's a wealth of addons, called GRFs that modify the game
22:07:59 <nicecupoftea> Some of them are just graphics, some of them completely change the gameplay
22:08:06 <planetmaker> Also make it a competing game. then the absolute ease of getting money is not important
22:08:15 <nicecupoftea> There's a hard server pack which increases prices, limits industries and changes vehicals
22:08:24 <nicecupoftea> In fact, I think there's a couple of different server packs.
22:08:39 <Ammler> or use version 0.4.8 ;-)
22:08:39 <planetmaker> and in fact all of them require building binaries.
22:08:51 <SpComb^> Ammler: yeah, running multiple processes should help a fair bit then, and 2GB RAM isn't bad
22:08:52 <JamesD> I'm the art and marketing director for Dangerlands.com MMORPG for iPhone but I'm not the coder
22:09:30 *** devilsadvocate has quit IRC
22:09:47 <planetmaker> JamesD: something possibly interesting for a handful of people is the head2head branch, though
22:10:05 <JamesD> So I can modify gameplay by changing values in GRFs
22:10:27 <nicecupoftea> JamesD: It depends, some things are simply NewGRF downloads in game, other require compiling from source
22:10:27 <SpComb^> if you did it with --background, then a 512x512 map takes up perhaps 128MB of mem
22:10:46 <Ammler> I should run the server with that?
22:10:57 <SpComb^> oh, no, you don't need to run the dev-server with that
22:11:02 <SpComb^> it's just the cache update
22:11:10 <Ammler> yes, I used that for all
22:11:23 <planetmaker> But I trust in you that you order new ones, if games are planned :-)
22:11:28 <SpComb^> Ammler: check with `ls -slh .../foo.*`
22:11:46 <SpComb^> Ammler: you should see that the first column (the actual disk size) is about half of the real size
22:13:27 <SpComb^> Ammler: yeah, that looks roughly right, surprising amount of variation, though
22:13:53 <JamesD> What is head2head? A custom balanced version?
22:14:05 <SpComb^> Ammler: what sizes are those maps?
22:14:17 <SpComb^> is MZ4 something non-square?
22:14:44 <SpComb^> yeah, that's just someone hitting esc in their browser
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22:15:40 <Ammler> mz11 is 512², mz4 and ps173 is 1024² and the other one is hmm
22:16:26 <SpComb^> Ammler: but as you can see... the .cache files are roughly half the nominal size on disk, and as far as I can tell the actual runtime memory use for the page table should follow the real disk size
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22:17:20 <Yexo> JamesD: if you have some patience I'll update it
22:17:21 <Ammler> I will install fastcgi and check then...
22:18:17 <Ammler> since wiki and blog is gone from our server, we should have a bit free resources again ;-)
22:19:01 <SpComb^> heh, giant screenshots will do a good job of eating them up
22:19:16 <Ammler> (psg173 is the current running game on our ps)
22:19:17 <rait> sorry for the errors, probablly chrome did it's thing
22:19:48 <Ammler> already some clients, which can't join anymore :'-(
22:20:21 <Ammler> and we planned to make new vehicle record ;-)
22:20:40 <SpComb^> curious choice of mountanious terrain
22:21:18 <dragonhorseboy> ammler was afk for a minute and I'm kinda lost..which game is this?
22:21:33 <luckz> is there some page/wiki entry/the like dealing with recommended settings for the sake of gameplay/balance, not limited to stock options, thus also including cargo dist and maybe infra sharing?
22:21:44 <Ammler> dragonhorseboy: this runs on the #openttdcoop publicserver right now
22:21:48 <SpComb^> oh, that's OpenGFX, no wonder it looks so fuzzy
22:22:00 <Yexo> because everyone has their own preference
22:22:15 <Ammler> SpComb^: I have no legal copy of TTD;-)
22:22:41 <SpComb^> bought a copy of the Tycoon Collection once, before I even stumbled on tt-forums
22:22:49 <dragonhorseboy> never been bothered looking because they always seem to be using odd build versions every single time
22:23:06 <dragonhorseboy> yexo heh true on that
22:23:15 <Ammler> dragonhorseboy: that is our "newbie protection" ;-)
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22:23:58 <dragonhorseboy> ammler...so you telling me there's a useless password for no reason then?
22:24:23 <dragonhorseboy> spcomb..when you can't find it on the thread or download page there IS something odd :p
22:24:55 <Ammler> binaries.openttd.org/nightlies
22:25:32 <dragonhorseboy> I'm not downloading a billion .. which one? :P
22:25:54 <Ammler> as you need to the password, you can't join without irc anyway :-P
22:26:04 <dragonhorseboy> yexo for me I actually play with the prices set a bit high up
22:27:27 <Ammler> ah, for mz11, I forgot to enable trees and bridges
22:34:23 <Yexo> then I don't know what it is
22:35:18 <TrueBrain> for your information :)
22:35:42 <TrueBrain> (although my name is not Rubidium, still :))
22:36:01 <Yexo> last time I asked you something about the cf you told me to ask Rubidium :)
22:36:15 <Yexo> but actually I don't really care who starts it, as long as it's started :)
22:36:28 <TrueBrain> Yexo: I know :) I am just 'pesten' you
22:38:46 <SpComb^> is the compile farm actually a farm?
22:38:51 <Ammler> OSX users aren't real competitors anyway ;-)
22:38:56 <TrueBrain> whiiee, I like the mirror system :)
22:39:03 <TrueBrain> SpComb^: what is the definition for a farm?
22:39:06 <Yexo> SpComb^: yes, of virtual machines
22:39:46 <TrueBrain> nowedays physical hosts are overrated
22:40:26 <TrueBrain> either way, it is a farm of compilers
22:40:32 <rait> how much time is the builder really doing anything? or does it have any other tasks?
22:40:34 <TrueBrain> so even if it was in one OS, it would have been a farm ;)
22:40:55 <TrueBrain> rait: 30 minutes compiling, 9 minutes mirroring
22:41:04 <TrueBrain> that for sure every day ...
22:41:12 <Ammler> shouldn't that be faster, since you dropped osx?
22:41:14 <TrueBrain> + things like head-to-head, which also takes 30 minutes compiling and 9 minutes mirroring
22:41:21 <Yexo> per build, so every day a nightly, then all releases and sometimes a custom build (like now)
22:41:43 <rait> so like under 2h per day is it utilized?
22:41:45 <TrueBrain> rait: then we also compile TTDp
22:42:10 <TrueBrain> 2 hours a day is a max, yes, where we use 3 cores at 100%
22:42:24 <TrueBrain> the rest of course goes to shit like php-cgi, and all other processes
22:42:42 <rait> so building isn't all it does?
22:42:44 <TrueBrain> average load is around 0.3, and there is about 10% CPU usage constant
22:42:50 <TrueBrain> no; it does all openttd.org services
22:43:43 <rait> so if this one machine goes down .... all goes?
22:43:43 <glx> with mirroring the load is reduced ;)
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22:44:15 <rait> that would suck. what exactly is mirrored?
22:44:26 <TrueBrain> all data is safe, that is never an issue :)
22:45:15 <TrueBrain> we talked about data :)
22:45:39 <TrueBrain> as even access to binaries.openttd.org requires the host ;)
22:45:50 <rait> any plans in case it does go down?
22:46:05 <TrueBrain> SVN is stored at 3 locations in the world, which can made active at any time
22:46:17 <TrueBrain> in it there is the website, masterserver, contentserver, ...
22:46:32 <TrueBrain> DNS control is also on several places in the world, controlled offsite
22:46:33 <Rubidium> yeah, no backup of the masterserver :)
22:46:45 <TrueBrain> yeah, that database is very value :p
22:47:09 <TrueBrain> rait: so in case the server goes down for a long period (unlikely btw), we can recover all client-side services in a short period of time
22:47:15 <TrueBrain> developers access is not easy to recover
22:48:05 * SpComb^ fires up his DL380 G3
22:48:26 <TrueBrain> rait: the server has a RAID-mirror, so our data is 'relative' safe
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22:49:50 <rait> RAID is a nice thing as long as actual data won't get corrupted. do you also have backups?
22:50:09 <Rubidium> of the important things, yes
22:50:15 <TrueBrain> and that is the only important thing to us
22:50:36 <Rubidium> and hg and git are not important to us :)
22:50:37 <TrueBrain> and btw, corruption is mostly detected afterwards, when the backups are long infected too ;)
22:50:39 <Yexo> nice thing of the git/hg copies is that everyone who checks out via git/hg has a backup
22:51:48 <TrueBrain> SpComb^: no; too big ;)
22:52:28 <Yexo> how big would a backup of all text (not images) in the wiki actually be?
22:52:49 <TrueBrain> without uploads, rather small
22:53:31 <Rubidium> actually, the wiki database is 160 MB
22:54:55 <TrueBrain> you guys change too much too often
22:55:11 <rait> but when you apply the magic of compression, it would be totally backupable
22:55:24 <TrueBrain> that is without uploads ;)
22:55:46 <fonsinchen> SpComb^: The warnings aren't my fault
22:56:12 <fonsinchen> And I suppose some dev has also seen them and thus didn't post a bug report.
22:56:46 <TrueBrain> 550 MiB, mostly images (no compression)
22:57:38 <TrueBrain> Flyspray makes up 1.5 GiB of data .... :o
22:58:48 <TrueBrain> 2 GiB of developers data
22:59:15 * SpComb^ wget's a couple 165M screenshots for amusement
22:59:15 <Yexo> TrueBrain: does that 2gb include the hg repos?
22:59:22 <SpComb^> over my IPv6 tunnel, no less
23:00:22 <TrueBrain> me, Belugas, Rubidium and then Bjarni
23:01:15 <TrueBrain> I will review the backup of wiki and flyspray this week, se what can be done
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23:02:01 <Rubidium> yeah, I guess my homedir is big (due to the intro savegame thing)
23:02:20 * SpComb^ runs pngtile+memcached on a dedicated server for amusement
23:02:21 <TrueBrain> mine is ... well .. because it is
23:02:28 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd
23:02:29 <TrueBrain> Belugas because he is Belugas (hihi, it is okay, really, it is :))
23:02:34 <TrueBrain> Bjarni because of OSX shit
23:02:53 <SpComb^> would it be a good idea to carry a 2U rack server with you on the bus+train?
23:03:05 <SpComb^> funny it would certainly be
23:04:10 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r18921 /trunk/src/ (station_cmd.cpp station_map.h waypoint_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: make the preconditions for Get/Set CustomStationSpecIndex a bit more strict
23:05:20 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb^: i carried a refridgerator on the train...
23:06:08 <TrueBrain> also one of those things you have to do: a desktop PC and a screen in the train. Just put them like you can work on it .. the faces of people ... unpayable
23:06:32 <rait> actually catty an ups and it will be magic :D
23:10:57 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd
23:13:36 <SpComb^> pfft, trains have power
23:13:47 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd
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23:19:05 <Yexo> or do I need to wait for it to be pushed to all mirrors for that?
23:19:12 <TrueBrain> it is on all mirrors
23:19:37 <TrueBrain> but the download page is cached for 5 minutes I believe
23:20:44 <TrueBrain> yeah, it caches the finger result for 5 minutes :)
23:25:31 * SpComb^ needs to aquire a dozen DL380 G3's and a rack for them
23:25:40 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r18922 /trunk/src/station_map.h: -Doc: add doxygen documentation to all functions in station_map.h
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23:29:09 <Yexo> basically the game starts with the same map copied a few times, and every company can only build in their own copy of the map
23:29:19 <Yexo> but you all play on the same server
23:34:15 <SpComb^> funky, my randrange() fails on 32-bit
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23:41:50 <Zuu> rait: Eg you can pan over to your competor and watch what he/she has built but dot do any damage over there.
23:59:27 <Ammler> I have a bit issue to handle those env vars for fcgi
23:59:50 <Ammler> couldn't I add those somehow to the fcgi directly?
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