IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2009-12-30
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00:04:22 *** dragonhorseboy has joined #openttd
00:04:36 <dragonhorseboy> any of you play with the ukrs trains? just curious
00:09:48 <Zuu> I usually go for ukrs when I use a train grf.
00:10:26 <dragonhorseboy> heh what year you usually start in?
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00:12:36 <dragonhorseboy> ah .. steam coming close to end and just one experimental diesel? :)
00:12:49 <Zuu> If I play myself. If I use/test PAXLink I usually start after 1955 since it does not yet handle upgrading airports.
00:13:24 <Zuu> But then ukrs is irrelevant for testing PAXLink.
00:13:35 <dragonhorseboy> well I've always used the 0-8-0 freight quite too liberally (but so does other as it would seem lol) ...
00:15:22 <dragonhorseboy> sorta find the 4-4-0 express ok but it seem a bit too lightfooted (one carriage truck and two coaches and then even yet it has problem when it hits many slopes)
00:15:51 <dragonhorseboy> the A4 just doesn't seem to be as useable as it can be .. would be nice if it could pull five coaches at steady speed but eh
00:16:29 <dragonhorseboy> you got any particular ukrs steamer you like or no?
00:20:35 <Zuu> It was too long since I played to remember a specific engine.
00:23:49 <Zuu> If you shade the economy window and then press the button to change it to the small version, then the size of the shaded window does not change. Only when you un-shade it it will change to the small economy window.
00:27:07 <Yexo> Zuu: please open a bug report for alberth, otherwise it's forgotten tomorrow
00:27:24 <Zuu> Indeed, I just did hit submit on the bug report
00:27:52 <Zuu> I did put it as servity "very low".
00:29:38 <dragonhorseboy> well I usually play with dbsetxl/japanset on my own anyhow .. oh and usually in the 1930's
00:31:29 <Zuu> Time for me to go to bed. PAXLink makes some kind of re-arangement of airplanes to new optimized routes, but several parts of the code needs thought testing to iron out bugs and complete some missing part in the logic.
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00:37:43 <Eddi|zuHause> 1930s are the beatuiful steamers in the dbset ;)
00:38:33 <Eddi|zuHause> especially with daylength that's the best era to play in ;)
00:39:02 <dragonhorseboy> eddi .. lol well I only picked it because thats an easy time to start short network .. what with everything only at like 39-70km/h for example you know ;)
00:39:13 <tokai> 1930 steamer designs were very cool, indeed. especially those with the streamline look
00:39:22 <dragonhorseboy> and by the time the modern mainline power really shows up well I've got the many routes and some $ to already support them
00:40:17 <dragonhorseboy> tokai.. I liked the BR01 in real (but rarely use it much at all in dbsetxl .. together with other steamers .. just something odd about their price to performance even)
00:40:43 <dragonhorseboy> there used to be one surviving mainline one but its finally sidelined now .. and I still don't think it'll ever run again
00:41:26 <tokai> hmm.. what was the name of the very fast german one (late 1930s I thin) which had a propeller at the back?
00:41:52 <tokai> it never went out of prototype state, I think
00:42:11 <tokai> Had a cool name; if I just could remember it right now:)
00:43:53 <tokai> do we have this in OpenTTD? :)
00:46:19 <Eddi|zuHause> if you make it into a grf ;)
00:47:41 <tokai> Does OpenTTD support such single 'block' trains? I mean you can't attach any wagons to it:) And can those GRFs be animated too (for the propeller) ? :)
00:49:39 <Eddi|zuHause> there's both a "can wagons be attached" and "animation frame" callbacks
00:59:51 <_ln> i wish to register a complaint
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01:00:23 <zar> i wish to learn to read :)
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01:24:09 <Eddi|zuHause> not everybody gets what he wishes for ;)
01:24:51 <PeterT> zar: bit too late for christmas
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01:28:14 <Luukland> Can someone tell me if it is possible to make a NEWGRF out of a DIFF?
01:29:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Luukland: i doubt that
01:30:05 <Luukland> I have a DIFF here which is only like 20 lines, that is it :P
01:32:24 <Yexo> Luukland: first try and understand what a diff file actually is
01:32:30 <Yexo> then try and understand what a newgrf file is
01:32:35 <Yexo> then you'll have the answer to your question
01:33:03 <Luukland> Hmmm that would take me 20 mins at least, or you just gimme a plain answer >_<
01:33:32 <Luukland> Its always when I ask a YES/NO question here you guys give crap answers >_< BAH
01:33:39 <Luukland> I am tired, I should cooldown...
01:34:10 <Eddi|zuHause> what did he dislike about my answer?
01:34:23 <Eddi|zuHause> that's as close to a "no" as you get ;)
01:35:29 <Eddi|zuHause> he should be lucky that he got an answer at all at this time :p
01:37:00 <Yexo> next time I'll just tell him no, no matter what the question is
01:37:10 <Yexo> then at least he has a yes/no answer
01:37:45 <PeterT> even I could assume that a diff file shows differences
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01:46:35 <Eddi|zuHause> so... something daylengthy for cargodist...
01:47:25 <PeterT> yes, me and spcomb^ have been working on that... :-)
01:47:47 <PeterT> well, he works, I just provide binaires
01:49:11 <Eddi|zuHause> what do i care for binaries of an esoteric operating system...
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02:04:03 <ajmiles> can someone tell me why receiving industries sometimes need more than 1 tile overlap with the catchment area whereas producing industries don't?
02:04:10 <ajmiles> bit of a strange game mechanic to have
02:04:25 <ajmiles> it isn't even consistent with the different industries
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02:09:31 <Eddi|zuHause> well, that's how it works... use the query tool to find out which tiles accept something
02:11:13 <ajmiles> but why does it work that why?
02:11:29 <ajmiles> or is it just a case of "the original did it, so we do too" ?
02:18:08 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it worked like this in the original game, too
02:21:32 <Eddi|zuHause> and nobody has the intention to change that
02:23:22 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: orudge * r18662 /trunk/os/os2/installer/ (9 files): -Feature: Add WarpIN-based installer for OS/2
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02:25:15 <orudge> indeed, you can run a fair amount of modern software on it - OpenOffice, Thunderbird, Firefox, OpenTTD, etc :p
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02:29:52 <PeterT> orudge: congrats, you've finished
02:31:16 <PeterT> orudge: where did you download os/2?
02:33:27 <orudge> one does however have to pay for it ;)
02:33:42 <orudge> and I’ve not quite finished, still some things to sort with OpenTTD itself
02:33:46 <orudge> the installer was just a distraction :p
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02:36:00 <orudge> [20:33:31] <orudge> one does however have to pay for it ;)
02:36:08 <orudge> I must go and get some food
02:36:47 <orudge> and torrents smell anyway
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08:02:07 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: * r18663 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp:
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08:10:16 <Alberth> apparently, openttd.org services are not optimal atm. hg and wiki appear to be down for me.
08:11:02 <Alberth> -Codechange (r1): Remove unused _smallmap_vegetation_andor colour masks.
08:22:02 <roboboy> is it possible to compile OpenTTD in dedicated mode for windows?
08:26:15 <Alberth> I don't think it does anything special for windows though, but I don't exactly know.
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08:40:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r18664 /: -Fix [FS#3449]: Unshade shaded finances window when toggling size.
08:56:33 <Muxy> Kiss, where to report translation bugs ?
08:56:50 <Muxy> or translation change sugestion
08:59:50 <Alberth> afaik we don't have a place for those other than logging in into the translator system, and fixing the problem
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09:01:03 <Muxy> well, i need to find a french translator
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09:46:08 <planetmaker> Muxy: _become_ a translator
09:53:40 <edeca> Muxy: Sign up, use the website to do it
10:02:14 <Muxy> planetmaker: yeap i have an account
10:02:23 <Muxy> but i need to be an editor
10:02:34 <planetmaker> well, yes. Apply as translator
10:02:44 <planetmaker> then you'll be made an editor
10:03:07 <Muxy> and will put lot of kiss in translation
10:03:38 * Muxy sends a mail to translator...
10:04:34 <peter1138> urgh, mx44's gui is... urgh
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10:07:07 <planetmaker> it's sometimes a good idea to discuss certain changes with the other translators sometimes, though, Muxy
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10:08:38 <planetmaker> the German translators made their own thread in the forums which is revived from time to time... but it depends upon the number of people who give input
10:09:30 <Muxy> German people is know to be well organized :)
10:10:14 <Muxy> people : singular, event there's a lot inthere
10:10:57 <Muxy> or people is plural, well english lessons are too far away
10:12:17 <peter1138> and you want to translate? ;)
10:12:57 <Muxy> hum, just want to fix a string for the moment, but planetmaker said i should apply to be editor
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11:18:19 <dihedral> ... how many people download openttd for os/2?
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11:30:24 <Xaroth> but that includes limping timmy.
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11:34:15 <jonty-comp> I know at least one person who actively uses OS2
11:34:19 <jonty-comp> granted, he doesn't play openttd
11:39:00 <jonty-comp> apparently SNCF ticket machines run/ran OS/2!
11:39:05 <jonty-comp> a perfect place to put openttd
11:40:38 <__ln> also TrenItalia's ticket machines run/ran OS/2 (or eComStation).
11:41:56 * roboboy wonders how to get msvc++ to compile dedicated openttd
11:42:45 <roboboy> ive compiled a standard gui version following that
11:43:05 <jonty-comp> can't you just run the normal app with -D?
11:43:33 <roboboy> the linux way is on the forums but msvc++ doesnt use make and configure
11:43:35 <jonty-comp> you only compile a special dedicated build on servers because then it doesn't build all the GUI stuff I think
11:47:35 <roboboy> well ive asked on the forums
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14:10:58 <Hirundo> What is the value of _local_company for a non-dedicated network server? always 0?
14:12:50 <Rubidium> depends what company the player at the server has joined
14:13:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought the server automatically joins company 0 (like in single player)
14:13:30 <Eddi|zuHause> at least that was how it worked 3 years ago ;)
14:13:36 <Hirundo> It did, but then I joined company 2 using the console
14:13:38 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: but you can change company
14:14:08 <Hirundo> But according to my debugger, _local_company is 0 :S
14:14:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't actually do multiplayer very often ;)
14:19:55 <Eddi|zuHause> am i the only person who wonders why nobody ever complained about the name "fickzoo"?
14:21:06 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb^: your town cargo patch seems to have trailing whitespace
14:21:06 <peter1138> ^ that'll teach you
14:21:49 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: fonsinchens cargodist repository
14:23:36 <peter1138> okay, never looked at it
14:25:14 <SpComb^> Eddi|zuHause: must have missed it while fighting with the tabs for indentation :P
14:27:15 <SpComb^> viewtopic.php and a post ID?
14:28:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm always tempted to say "an url"
14:28:32 <planetmaker> I should have know this reaction ;-)
14:28:50 <PeterT> what do those parameters do, that you've inserted?
14:28:56 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: so why not simply make a bug report?
14:29:06 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, url begins with a y sound ;)
14:29:17 <peter1138> anyone who pronounces it 'earl' is wrong
14:29:23 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: not when i pronunce it
14:29:27 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: yes, I could :-) Or I could adjust the specs. Dunno which is wrong :-)
14:30:03 <Hirundo> It seems if you save and reload a game as network server playing as company 2, client_playas is set to company 2 while _local_company is set to 0
14:30:10 <Eddi|zuHause> for me an "u" ist just an "u", not a "ju"
14:30:31 <Belugas> ho... it's a chess board...
14:30:36 <peter1138> it's not a j sound either!
14:31:01 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: test it in ttdpatch?
14:31:12 <planetmaker> yes. But I don't have it ;-)
14:31:30 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: /ju:/?
14:33:03 <Elessar> jonty-comp: SNCF ticket machines ran OS/2, I think. I recently saw one saying « [Windows logo] It is now safe to turn off your computer. »
14:33:52 <Eddi|zuHause> all such computers i know run windows... it's a shame...
14:34:27 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: do you have TTDP?
14:34:48 <Eddi|zuHause> but my wine is currently compiling
14:35:15 <planetmaker> (it's the compiled newgrf)
14:35:19 <Elessar> jonty-comp: But it would be so nice to hack one so that it offers OpenTTD…
14:35:21 <jonty-comp> Eddi|zuHause: I hope you either have many cores, or a long time :p
14:35:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i have grown patient over the years :p
14:35:40 <planetmaker> it needs TTDP > ~r1560
14:35:46 <jonty-comp> Eddi|zuHause: just think of the possibilities, you could integrate ticket booking with an openttd map of the rail network :D
14:36:39 <peter1138> Elessar, woudn't that then be a windows machine, rather than OS/2 ?
14:36:40 <Eddi|zuHause> it says "TTDPatch-win32-nightly-r1762.zip"
14:37:17 <Elessar> peter1138: Yes, that is why I was insisting on the preterit form: they *ran* on OS/2.
14:37:21 <planetmaker> should suffice. There's only one version check...
14:37:41 <Eddi|zuHause> but... need to wait for wine
14:37:55 <planetmaker> well, no rush. But the result will be interesting :-)
14:38:07 <planetmaker> And possibly mean more work :S
14:38:27 <Eddi|zuHause> you could just copy the line from alpine, or ecs, or similar...
14:38:53 <Eddi|zuHause> canset probably has one, too
14:39:12 <planetmaker> Well. But do they allow adjustment of both, height level and amplitude?
14:40:15 <Eddi|zuHause> do you use action 6 for that?
14:40:24 <planetmaker> It's dragging quite a bit for the sake of the fact that I thought "it's just a few lines" which I would need to change... :-) Alas, will be nice, if it works. Yes, action6
14:40:45 <planetmaker> One whopping big one ;-)
14:40:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i can imagine ;)(
14:41:40 <Eddi|zuHause> the snow line table is 12*32 byte?
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15:23:44 <PeterT> Do you have Perl installed?
15:24:13 <PeterT> ah, i need some help with that
15:24:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Elessar: somebody compiled xchat and decided that it should be called differently
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15:26:42 <Elessar> Any website about it?
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16:15:49 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i'm not sure if i forgot any parameters, but in ttdpatch it looks really fishy...
16:16:07 <planetmaker> what does it look like?
16:16:38 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: like everything is snow, except the shores and the trees
16:16:45 <planetmaker> well, it accepts two parameters, but default is param0=0 and param1=6, thus snow height varying between 0 and 6
16:16:57 <planetmaker> yes, that's intended in January
16:17:11 <planetmaker> the trees... well, not. They should be snowy, too
16:17:22 <Eddi|zuHause> when is the change supposed to happen?
16:17:29 <planetmaker> every month one level
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16:20:36 <Eddi|zuHause> it also says the snowy tiles are "grass"
16:21:15 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: hm... how does it look like with arctic climate? I guess it doesn't then...
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16:22:39 <Eddi|zuHause> looks the same in both arctic and temperate
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16:23:56 <planetmaker> Well, I don't do tile replacement. I just change the snow line height. Which *should* in principle work. If TTDP reports wrongly, I would consider it a fault of it...
16:24:53 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it's a bug in my ancient version of ttdpatch...
16:25:28 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, there's no visible changes in snow line over the years
16:25:52 <planetmaker> oh, there isn't? Have you set any parameters? If you set them to the same value, it doesn't change
16:26:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't set any parameters
16:26:19 <planetmaker> hm, yes, you said so.
16:28:40 <planetmaker> anyway, Thanks for testing it. Now what? Disable for TTDP? Or just don't worry about it...
16:28:51 <planetmaker> Or spend lots of time for something I don't play...
16:29:26 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... how does one set parameters in ttdpatch? either i do it wrong, or they don't have an effect either
16:29:35 <planetmaker> I think in the cfg file
16:30:10 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, "like that" is the exact problem
16:30:48 <planetmaker> I *think* the same way as in the OpenTTD cfg:
16:30:50 <planetmaker> snowlinemod-nightly/snowlinemod.grf = 2 14
16:31:07 <planetmaker> ah, leave out the tar filename, of course ;-)
16:31:09 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, no version i tried changed anything
16:31:58 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: you try in arctic climate?
16:31:59 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that's one of the versions i tried
16:32:09 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: in both
16:32:37 <planetmaker> hm, ok. Then the snowintemperate won't have influence either...
16:32:50 <planetmaker> Maybe I should ask again in the forums :-)
16:33:08 <planetmaker> But meanwhile I have a kind of fortnightly version here
16:33:33 <planetmaker> blowing up the tiny newgrf to 160 sprites
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16:34:57 <planetmaker> Hm, maybe TTDP cannot handle parameters up to 20 or so (which I use internally)
16:36:41 <planetmaker> Anyway, thanks a lot, Eddi|zuHause
16:37:09 <planetmaker> I'm kinda puzzled and don't know why...
16:38:26 <planetmaker> Oh, wait, Eddi|zuHause : I just see it now: I set the snow line height to a too low value
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16:39:00 <planetmaker> the wiki tells I should not go below 0x10h (= lv. 2). But I chose 0x0.
16:39:38 <planetmaker> could you try with 3 and 9 maybe (if you didn't already chose a param combination with values only >=2)
16:40:03 <planetmaker> so, openttd is nice about that, TTDP probably not
16:44:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i tried 4 and 11
16:50:10 <Eddi|zuHause> the snow line doesn't seem to change in openttd either
16:51:58 <planetmaker> what do I do and you not?
16:58:20 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... sometimes i simply do not understand xkcd
17:07:05 <planetmaker> hm... looks like I attached there the wrong grf version doh... I should commit more often to avoid confusion :-S
17:16:14 <Mks> is there anyway to calculate how much HP an loco needs to pull x amount of cargo?
17:19:42 <peter1138> you need a qualifier on that
17:20:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Mks: 1Hp is enough for any amount of cargo. the question is if you are getting to a sensible amount of speed that way
17:20:53 <Mks> well I mean to be able to maintain somewhat speed even on hills
17:21:29 <Eddi|zuHause> and what "speed" is is different for passengers or freight
17:21:46 <planetmaker> depends upon the freight weight multiplier (or however that is called)
17:22:14 <Mks> if you transport 208tons thats x 4 so 832 ton you pull?
17:22:44 <Eddi|zuHause> 800t is not particularly heavy for a coal train
17:23:02 <Mks> if you wish to maintain maximum speed in this case 72km/h
17:23:13 <Mks> how much traction or HP do I need to be able to do that?
17:24:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Mks: F=P/v, so you have to calculate how much friction the train generates
17:24:50 <Mks> how do you calculate how much friction a train generate?
17:25:42 <Terkhen> is there a way to force OpenTTD to exit after a certain number of ticks?
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17:27:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: with the null video driver, i believe
17:27:58 <Eddi|zuHause> -v null:<ticks> or something
17:30:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Mks: anyway, the E94 had a power of 3000kW, and was designed to pull 2000t at 85km/h on flat, 1600t at 40km/h on 1% slope and 600t at 50km/h on 2,5% slope
17:36:10 <Terkhen> I remember I had to set the video driver to null... but whenever I use it the game exits just after map generation / load
17:44:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and the slopes in openttd clearly are lacking variety
17:44:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r18665 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt smallmap_gui.cpp): -Feature [FS#567]: Allow contour-map to be shown with coloured industries in smallmap.
17:50:38 <Eddi|zuHause> what disturbs me the most is that slopes and curves depend on train length
17:53:13 <Rubidium> Terkhen: -v null goes for 1000 ticks by default
17:54:39 <Terkhen> thanks, I can use it then :)
17:55:04 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... when generating a non-square map, the mountains tend to get stretched in the longer direction...
17:55:28 <planetmaker> maybe squeezed in the shorter? ;-)
17:56:15 <Eddi|zuHause> whatever... but all mountains go in the same direction ;)
17:57:46 <peter1138> with variety distribution?
17:58:32 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r18666 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt smallmap_gui.cpp): -Codechange: Add tooltips to enable/disable all buttons in smallmap.
17:59:31 <peter1138> yeah, that looks a bit odd with extreme aspect ratio gaming
17:59:39 <peter1138> i mean more 128x2048, ehe
17:59:44 <peter1138> i only tested it with 2:1 ratios
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18:05:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i tried 4:1, and it was pretty obvious...
18:05:26 <Eddi|zuHause> on 2:1 it looks fine
18:05:42 <Eddi|zuHause> but the mountains are still too plateau-y
18:06:29 <Eddi|zuHause> you never get any bridgeable valleys
18:06:43 <Eddi|zuHause> either flat land or mountain plateaus...
18:07:39 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18667 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_order.cpp: -Fix [FS#3454]: [NoAI] crash when trying to get the order destination of a 'nearest depot' order
18:10:22 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18668 /trunk/src/lang/ (48 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#3450]: the space between the S and X of OS X should be a non-breaking one
18:10:34 <Eddi|zuHause> and i need a rack railway for this mountain...
18:11:35 <peter1138> hmm, scaling by aspect ratio doesn't work well
18:18:03 <peter1138> as 2048/64 is 32, therefore variety distribution would be on or off
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18:33:33 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb^: there's a function somewhere that rounds autofill timetables to whole days, that's kinda useless with daylength
18:35:27 <peter1138> also i'm scaling wrong anyway. hmm...
18:41:15 <Terkhen> hmmm... is there any implemented way of showing how much time OpenTTD spends in these 1000 ticks? I want to compare the performance of different implementations
18:41:47 <Eddi|zuHause> "make run_prof" or something
18:42:12 <peter1138> you need to configure with profiling too
18:42:56 <Eddi|zuHause> or simple: "time openttd"
18:45:17 <peter1138> not very accurate :)
18:45:44 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r18669 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:45:44 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:44 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 13 changes by burgerd
18:45:44 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 36 changes by
18:45:45 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: english_US - 74 changes by agenthh
18:45:45 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 4 changes by jpx_
18:45:47 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 5 changes by glx
18:46:34 <Terkhen> okay, I'll try what it does in profiling mode
18:56:07 <Terkhen> wow, this is perfect, thanks!
19:01:36 <glx> you can specify more ticks if needed
19:03:09 <Terkhen> how? -v null:<ticks>?
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19:22:11 <SpComb^> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, I noticed that with the mainline timetables
19:22:38 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb^: it makes tram timetables really useless
19:26:18 <SpComb^> but you can change it to use ticks instead
19:26:47 <SpComb^> it should store it in ticks, and display fractional days or such
19:27:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i have it showing in ticks, but the initial autofill still rounds to whole days
19:27:50 <SpComb^> I think the other timetable patch introduces some kind of time-concept?
19:28:22 <SpComb^> well, hmm, I guess you do need to round it off to something
19:28:32 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but try to get that applying to trunk :p
19:29:04 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, your patch should disable this rounding, or make it apply the original daylength
19:29:28 <Eddi|zuHause> and that's the place where all daylength patches get troublesome ;)
19:30:02 <SpComb^> well, it's a problem that can be fixed
19:30:26 <SpComb^> a longer daylength perhaps just makes it more obvious
19:30:34 <SpComb^> you could probably fix it even without throwing in the daylength stuff
19:31:01 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r18670 /trunk/src/clear_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#3455]: Update all tiles when snowline height changes in larger steps than one tile.
19:31:12 <SpComb^> and I haven't heard of anyone actively opposing daylength
19:31:22 <orudge> I actively oppose daylength!
19:31:27 <orudge> I have no opinion on it
19:31:29 <orudge> I just thought I’d say that
19:31:53 <SpComb^> and I think it's preety interesting to see how my 10-line daylength patch has over a hundred downloads already, and good feedback from users
19:32:04 <Eddi|zuHause> not daylength per se, but all people have different opinion on what should be changed by daylength and what not
19:32:04 <orudge> I guess in the Development forum
19:32:20 <SpComb^> Daylength, Cargodist with sprinkles
19:33:08 <SpComb^> yeah, and I guess one doesn't want to throw something gameplay-chaning into trunk until the side-effects have been figured out
19:33:20 <SpComb^> even if the patch itself is very clean
19:33:22 <Eddi|zuHause> it's funny how turning off "realistic" catchment areas automatically makes my tram networks more spread out
19:33:48 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb^: well, the original daylength patch had one line :p
19:34:44 <SpComb^> mine has some comments and a patch setting :P
19:35:04 <SpComb^> but otherwise the same, yes
19:36:14 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... now my station sign blocks the view of the town name...
19:36:20 <SpComb^> but point being, even a simple/crude vardaylength functionality has a big positive impact
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19:37:36 <SpComb^> but there are some serious side effects that do require fixing, for me, it was the towns exploding
19:37:48 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but no patch ever had a higher discrepancy between "positive feedback" and "trunk-readiness"
19:38:49 <SpComb^> well, it's far from trunk-ready only if you expect it to magically re-balance the economy in some way that's based on opinion
19:40:08 <SpComb^> but as it is right now, it takes a lot of explaining to understand what happens when you change it
19:40:47 <SpComb^> not sure if you can fix that by patching
19:41:04 <SpComb^> yes, monthly industry production figures go up... well...
19:42:29 <Eddi|zuHause> one of the things i noticed with all daylength patches: the yearly cost of all vehicles increase way beyond their purchase price
19:43:02 <planetmaker> :-) vehicles are like printer ink: buy cheap, pay often
19:43:50 <SpComb^> Eddi|zuHause: iirc it takes DAY_TICKS into account, so the figure stays the same
19:44:36 <planetmaker> hm... maybe then purchase prices need adjustment, if cargo rates are not adjusted?
19:44:52 <planetmaker> but then... the max loan also needs to be adjusted
19:44:53 <SpComb^> but I think taht's a pretty minor detail - profit's already way out of whack, so it doesn't really matter
19:45:09 <SpComb^> planetmaker: now you're into dangerous territory
19:45:41 <SpComb^> the only way to fix daylength-related issues is to fix everything to be either tick-based or date-based
19:45:43 <planetmaker> SpComb^: well, yes. then it's a start setting and cannot be changed
19:45:48 <SpComb^> nothing else should be done
19:46:18 <planetmaker> :-) I hope you work out something reasonable
19:46:43 <SpComb^> I'll fix any issues that I run into as they come up
19:47:05 <SpComb^> for a change, I'm actually pplaying with this patch
19:48:30 <Terkhen> when calculating the time spent inside a function, does gprof add the time spent in functions called from the original one?
19:49:20 <SpComb^> Terkhen: there's more than one figure
19:50:25 <MyCatSchemes> Terkhen, you'll find that listed as "cumulative" time.
19:50:51 <MyCatSchemes> e.g. f() burns one second in a while loop, then calls g() which burns one and a half seconds in a loop.
19:51:58 <Terkhen> that's what I thought, but the results are not logical... I must have a mistake somewhere
19:52:13 <MyCatSchemes> f's cumulative time usage will come out to 2.5s. Some profilers will also give you the 1s figure for the time that's used strictly within f() itself too. IMHO not a spectacularly useful metric. Most likely less accurate than the cumulative timing, too.
19:53:55 <Terkhen> okay, I forgot to set realistic acceleration for trains on at the savegame... as a result I got too small times
19:54:19 <MyCatSchemes> Happens to the best of us.
19:57:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: while you're at it, can you make slopes have higher influence on passenger trains?
19:58:53 <Eddi|zuHause> it's kinda useless to build serpentines if the curves slow down the train more than the slopes...
20:01:38 <Terkhen> as long as I find an easy way to determine which trains carry passengers, it shouldn't be too complicated... I can give it a try but as a different patch: I'm currently profiling the improved acceleration for road vehicles patch
20:02:46 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb^: anyway, in src/timetable_cmd.cpp:270ish: time_taken = (((time_taken - 1) / DAY_TICKS) + 1) * DAY_TICKS;
20:02:59 <Eddi|zuHause> this should probably be the original day ticks
20:03:56 <SpComb^> they are stored in ticks, though?
20:04:43 <Eddi|zuHause> it's just rounding
20:06:00 <Eddi|zuHause> it accepts unrounded tick values when manually entering the values, but it won't show fractional days
20:06:25 <SpComb^> well, you could replace it with ORIG_DAY_TICKS, and then just say that fixing it for real is out of the patch's scope :P
20:07:00 <Eddi|zuHause> well, really, it makes autofill useless
20:07:04 <SpComb^> (as the same problem will then apply to trunk)
20:07:41 <SpComb^> well, looks like another one-liner to fix it back to the same status as in trunk
20:07:45 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not a problem in trunk
20:08:09 <SpComb^> rounding is, displaying it in days isn't quite
20:08:29 <SpComb^> but displaying fractional days is a patch that would be independent of daylength
20:08:45 <Eddi|zuHause> well, someone thought that the rounding would stop "confusing" people
20:11:00 <SpComb^> well, you could trick it into displaying the same fractional parts as what the daylength factor happens to be
20:11:37 <SpComb^> for the rounded-off autofilled intervals
20:11:54 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but there is no code to display fractional numbers ;)
20:12:11 <SpComb^> but timetables do call for some measure of "time" that would then be tied to ticks
20:12:53 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but the virtual clock is definitely out of the scope of the daylength patch ;)
20:14:29 <peter1138> easy enough to manullay show decimal
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20:14:50 <SpComb^> so fix it back to the same level of usability as in trunk, and then fixes that improve it are independant
20:15:12 <SpComb^> or something along those lines
20:16:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i set mine to round to 100 ticks now
20:21:12 <SpComb^> a) daylength patch to make it use ORIG_DAY_TICKS b) separate patch to show fractional timetable days in <n>ths up to, say, 16 or 10
20:23:05 <SpComb^> have to admit that I don't really know how to use timetables myself
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20:23:38 <SpComb^> I always end up trying them on a couple random vehicles
20:31:56 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18671 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix [FS#3452]: [NewGRF] If an action B did not have a 'data' string but would print it OpenTTD would segfault
20:35:08 <Eddi|zuHause> they're only really usefull with autoseparation
20:35:25 <SpComb^> which isn't in trunk?
20:35:38 <Eddi|zuHause> the manual separation made it to trunk recently
20:35:44 <welshdragon> it damn well should be
20:35:47 <SpComb^> I've seen them kind of seem to work for boats/trams
20:36:21 <SpComb^> but trains... they tend to spread themselves out when resolving all the massive jams :)
20:37:10 <welshdragon> it'd be nice to get a newspaper message saying that there is a jam
20:37:31 <welshdragon> (say if a train is stuck at a signal after 150 days)
20:39:01 <gathers> I'm playing around with modifying an old autoseparation patch myself, but I'm new to openttd code.. is anyone else working on something similar as well?
20:39:14 <SpComb^> it's weird, the wait_at_twoway (o whatever) use some random magic constants for the ticks
20:39:44 <SpComb^> iirc 54 for one and 74 for two, or such
20:43:31 <Eddi|zuHause> gathers: try the "improved timetable management patch", but parts of it have gone to trunk, and the gui code heavily changed
20:44:06 <Eddi|zuHause> blame alberth ;)
20:46:35 <gathers> Eddi|zuHause: the diff for that one is over 6000 lines! that's a lot to read, but I've been poking around in it
20:47:18 <gathers> (my own diff for automated timetables with separation is 519)
20:48:21 <gathers> If anyone has an "improved timetable management patch" the applies to trunk I'd be very happy, though :P
20:48:53 <Rubidium> sadly enough I'm quite sure nobody has that
20:49:04 <Rubidium> unless you find a year old trunk sufficient
20:51:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i tried updating it again, but i failed/gave up
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20:53:49 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe i shouldn't have started with merging date_gui.cpp
20:54:05 <kingconnections> can i ask an openttd question real quick
20:54:27 <Eddi|zuHause> where half of it has gone to trunk heavily modified, and the other half is still depending on the old gui system
20:54:35 <Eddi|zuHause> and i totally loathe gui code
20:54:45 <Ammler> make bundle doesn't make a gm directory bundle/gm/
20:56:08 <kingconnections> is it possible to ferry goods from a truck station to an airport?
20:56:21 <Rubidium> kingconnections: you're usually getting better answers when asking the question than asking the metaquestion whether you may ask the question you want to ask
20:56:38 <kingconnections> lol thank rubidium!
20:56:40 <Rubidium> kingconnections: yes, if they are part of the same station
20:57:00 <kingconnections> do I have to place the truck port directly adjaent to the airport
20:57:10 <kingconnections> can it be across the road?
20:57:25 <Rubidium> yes, or use 'distant join' but then you need to press Ctrl when building
20:57:46 <kingconnections> thanks very much you were very helpful
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21:01:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i find this idea on the forum intriguing, where stations are separate concering the pathfinder, but joined concerning cargo
21:02:02 <Xaroth> go to station X platform Y ?
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21:02:14 <Xaroth> nice idea, doesn't work -all- the time tho
21:02:29 <SpComb^> you'd need to group platforms
21:03:08 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, platforms could be grouped by assigning them to the same sub-station
21:03:53 <SpComb^> but, you can build multi-track waypoints right against the platforms now
21:04:14 <Rubidium> let me guess, and then platform 1-4 should be part of substation A, 5-8 of substation B, 3-6 of substation C, 1,2,7,8 of substation D?
21:04:24 <Eddi|zuHause> but not _on_ the platform, and especially with road vehicles, they take up a lot of space
21:04:25 <SpComb^> what would be even more awesome would be for the pf to pick a platform that let's it get to the next order as well
21:05:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: not entirely sure whether that is necessary
21:05:08 <SpComb^> for mixed through/oneway/terminus/etc stations
21:05:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: but i frequently have the situation where a tram line splits up, and i can't tell the trams to go to the stop that leads in their direction
21:06:32 <Wizzleby> would this be the proper place to ask about build issues with grfcodec-r2247?
21:06:50 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb^: yeah, that would solve some of the situations, but it is very difficult to implement
21:07:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Wizzleby: this is certainly not the place to ask metaquestions
21:08:17 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: well, Dalestan isn't here right now... so not sure how much we can help with that
21:08:30 <Wizzleby> Eddi|zuHause: meta-questioning was not my intent, I appologize if it came off as such
21:08:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: but we don't find that out with a metaquestion either ;)
21:09:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Wizzleby: there's a graphics forum for "technical discussion", possibly you can get help there
21:09:48 <Ammler> Is it a technical issue, you can't switch base sets ingame?
21:10:11 <Ammler> shouldn't that be easier than switching newgrfs?
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21:12:35 <Wizzleby> I could use the other set, yes, but that would defeat the purpose of packaging open{g,s}fx
21:13:21 <Ammler> Wizzleby: did you already ask?
21:13:42 <Rubidium> Ammler: IIRC it was because of some strange crashes when changing the base set ingame
21:14:34 <Ammler> Rubidium: for the music sets, it would be nice to be able to
21:14:37 <Wizzleby> eh? no. Its a compilation error. an invalid conversion from ‘const char*’ to ‘char*’
21:15:08 <Rubidium> if you pay attention you'll see that the intro game gets reloaded when you change the base set
21:15:23 <planetmaker> hm... Wizzleby I think it was fixed in a newer version. Not entirely sure, though
21:15:47 <Wizzleby> planetmaker: I'm using r2247, didn't see a newer version
21:15:49 <Rubidium> planetmaker: you're probably thinking of nforenum
21:16:00 <planetmaker> you might be right
21:18:18 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, where can i make transfers pay for each leg individually? shouldn't be difficult
21:18:49 <Wizzleby> Ammler: thank you, I will try that patch
21:21:54 <Ammler> Wizzleby: what distro do you build for?
21:24:05 <Ammler> the patch is downwards compatible, no idea, why it never got to upstream
21:25:44 <Wizzleby> Well that's why I came looking. no need to re-write a gcc-4.4 patch if there is already one floating around
21:26:03 <Wizzleby> Ammler: that patch did the trick, thanks muchly
21:36:29 <Rubidium> Ammler: probably because you haven't pushed it hard enough
21:38:55 <Ammler> well, I learned to report something and then stay silent ;-)
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21:40:01 <Belugas> and here we go again, leaving you to your sad faith, while i go facing the cold and the night!
21:41:13 *** ajmiles has joined #openttd
21:45:27 <andythenorth> I come, Belugas goes :|
21:45:36 <andythenorth> I have faced the cold night
21:53:20 <Eddi|zuHause> it snowed last night
21:53:26 <Eddi|zuHause> but now it's raining, it seems
22:04:04 <Eddi|zuHause> you have a weird encoding ;)
22:04:45 <Eddi|zuHause> the ó is encoded in "ibm850"
22:05:13 <Eddi|zuHause> which i have seen practically never since DOS ;)
22:05:29 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: exactly ;)
22:08:16 <peter1138> Terkhen, i had been thinking something similar actually
22:08:22 <Terkhen> well... svn diff does stranger things in windows, like mixing windows and unix EOLs
22:08:40 <peter1138> Terkhen, a configuration option to directly set the steepness of a hill...
22:09:03 <peter1138> but... couldn't be bothered to write it ;p
22:09:47 <Terkhen> I was thinking of including a configuration option at the improved acceleration for road vehicles patch, I can code it as a standalone patch for trains
22:25:04 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
22:28:17 <curriegrad2004> hey, just a quick question
22:28:39 <curriegrad2004> are the official binaries for Windows on OpenTTD have DirectMusic support built into it?
22:30:23 <dm`afk> just submitted my first bug report :-)
22:30:32 *** dm`afk is now known as darkmonkey
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22:32:36 <Rubidium> darkmonkey: if the autosave crashes, can you check whether it crashes in the last nightly too?
22:33:54 *** planetmaker is now known as bugmaker
22:34:44 *** bugmaker is now known as planetmaker
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22:35:44 <planetmaker> I prefer making planets to be honest
22:36:03 <Eddi|zuHause> someone had a similar assert with cargodist recently
22:37:12 <darkmonkey> er, Rubidium, running the nightly gives me "failed to select requested sounds set 'NoSound'"
22:37:34 <darkmonkey> i might be doing it wrong - extracted the zip to folder on desktop and ran the openttd.exe
22:40:53 *** mib_1hnrgjhf9xmk has joined #openttd
22:41:00 <Rubidium> copy the nosound/opengfx/opensfx folders from c:\program files\openttd\data to the data directory that you extracted
22:41:03 *** Rubidium sets mode: +b *!*559d4ca4@*.mibbit.com
22:41:03 *** mib_1hnrgjhf9xmk was kicked by Rubidium (mib_1hnrgjhf9xmk)
22:41:12 <darkmonkey> god, she sounded hot
22:41:29 <darkmonkey> ok Rubidium, hold on
22:42:12 <valhallasw> darkmonkey: female/usa? she has got to be obese ;)
22:42:45 <darkmonkey> Rubidium, exactly the same error
22:42:48 <darkmonkey> i will amend the ticket
22:43:01 <Rubidium> darkmonkey: you tried the last autosave, right?
22:43:30 <darkmonkey> the crash.sav crashed in both and the autosave worked in the beta
22:43:42 <darkmonkey> but was from 5 mins before
22:43:43 <Rubidium> the crash.sav is going to crash in the nightly anyhow because it's already broken
22:44:03 <darkmonkey> right, shall i run the autosave in the beta and see if it occurs again?
22:44:19 <Zuu> darkmonkey: For future if you are goning to run multiple installations on windows you can keep your data files in C:\User\<your user>\Documents\OpenTTD\data\, then all OpenTTD installations will find them.
22:44:32 <Rubidium> darkmonkey: you were working on signals, right?
22:44:42 <fjb> To bad he didn't say if she is pretty...
22:45:33 <lobstar> LOBSTAR RADIO FOR ALL
22:45:47 <lobstar> end of announcement, thank you all
22:46:12 <_ln> lobstar: if i had @, you'd be /k for flooding
22:47:32 <peter1138> is it really a radio show
22:47:46 <lobstar> well, i might do some intros and so on
22:47:53 <lobstar> if i can get my microphone to work
22:48:31 <peter1138> if i had @, i'd /k _ln for suggesting it
22:48:59 <Rubidium> darkmonkey: then it's very likely fixed by r18628
22:49:37 <darkmonkey> where's openttd's svn tracker?
22:49:50 <Terkhen> peter1138: It's almost finished... should the configuration option have a value for ignoring slopes completely?
22:49:58 <peter1138> vcs.openttd.org sort of thing
22:49:59 <_ln> is it ok to use 190-character lines in the code?
22:50:14 <darkmonkey> thanks peter1138, yes
22:50:44 <lobstar> if i had @, i'd eat some buns and dance around naked
22:51:55 <darkmonkey> Rubidium the track i was building was fresh with no trains on it so no trains were loading in stations
22:52:16 <Sacro> lobstar: i thought you did that anyway
22:55:01 <Rubidium> darkmonkey: the trains in Hindhead are in the same signal block as where you placed the signal
22:56:36 <peter1138> lobstar, that's nothing, my mic raises my voice by 5 semitones...
22:57:43 <lobstar> ah, that's also not very helpful indeed
22:57:58 <lobstar> the result is a convincing chipmunk sound, is it not?
22:58:39 <Eddi|zuHause> <valhallasw> darkmonkey: female/usa? she has got to be obese ;) <- and 40, and male ;)
23:00:53 <darkmonkey> Rubidium: occurred again in the trunk
23:01:36 <darkmonkey> Rubidium: would you like me to make a seperate ticket/dump etc or what?
23:01:40 <Rubidium> darkmonkey: with the crash savegame?
23:01:57 <darkmonkey> after playing for ~5 minutes
23:02:05 <darkmonkey> but doing the same thing (signals on same rail)
23:03:08 <Rubidium> just add the savegame where I just have to place the signal to crash OpenTTD to the existing ticket
23:05:52 <darkmonkey> i of course can't replicate it now ;)
23:06:09 <Rubidium> maybe because you were running the beta instead of the nightly?
23:06:35 <darkmonkey> running the nightly
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23:10:51 <darkmonkey> meh, can't replicate it. am pretty damn sure i was running the nightly when i last got the error but you've now put doubt in my mind
23:11:06 <Rubidium> what does crash.log say about the version?
23:13:09 <Rubidium> anyhow, without a way to reproduce the crash (by building the signal) it's impossible to fix
23:13:37 <darkmonkey> the woes of bug fixing!
23:14:05 <darkmonkey> i am a web developer and it's much easier to reproduce bugs in such a limited environment
23:16:15 <MyCatSchemes> darkmonkey, I challenge you to repeat that statement when the bug turns out to be an intermittent race condition in your caching infrastructure. :)
23:16:42 <darkmonkey> haha yes, then you've got issues
23:17:17 <darkmonkey> but 90% of the time it's a lazy front-end programmer who got lazy with browser testing
23:18:41 * lobstar announces that radio will stop for an update, but will resume shortly thereafter
23:20:39 * Eddi|zuHause requests that there be no radio announcements anymore
23:20:47 <SpComb> Edit: I think tree generation needs to be modified as well, my map is completely covered in trees even though I have only played a couple of years with your patch (x50 day length). I think there is a separate tree patch somewhere, but i think it should probably be tied in with the day length"
23:21:20 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: better skip that ;)
23:23:41 <SpComb> some kind of if (GetTreeCounter(tile) < 15) ...
23:24:22 <SpComb> more trees = good, right? :)
23:25:10 <Ammler> TrueBrain: seems like the rss feed urls seems broken (again)
23:36:14 * Rubidium ponders /ignore lobstar for my pleasure...
23:36:36 <lobstar> do as you please, ofcourse
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