IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2009-12-29
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00:07:50 <orudge> woo, a fresh install of OS/2 actually seems to be working for me now in VMWare
00:09:26 *** vittorio has joined #openttd
00:09:46 *** vittorio is now known as koda
00:10:12 <koda> first time visit, so nick is wrong ^^
00:11:18 <PeterT> orudge: is there any benefit in using OS/2?
00:11:38 <orudge> I don't use it personally, but I created the OS/2 port of OpenTTD
00:11:42 <orudge> but have been unable to build new binaries for a few months
00:11:49 <orudge> I'd like to get some 0.7.5 and 1.0.0-beta 1 binaries out :)
00:12:24 <PeterT> why do you make binaries for it?
00:12:32 <PeterT> is it a popular system to play openttd on?
00:12:35 <orudge> so that those who do use OS/2 can play OpenTTD
00:12:46 <orudge> OpenTTD is quite popular amongst OS/2 users it seems
00:12:51 <orudge> there aren't that many OS/2 users
00:13:41 <_ln> no, that's the Warp 4 desktop
00:14:07 <orudge> eComStation is much more modern
00:14:19 <orudge> but you can run many modern apps on it
00:14:31 <orudge> many more than people probably realise
00:14:45 <koda> i've read of the deprecation of the macosx port
00:15:10 <orudge> well, I don't think we have an "official" OS X developer at the moment
00:15:19 <Eddi|zuHause> only a handful of fixes, not an official developer
00:15:28 <PeterT> What happened to Bjarni?
00:15:33 <Eddi|zuHause> and especially noone to code 10.6 support
00:16:08 * orudge does have a shiny new MacBook Pro with 10.6, but alas, he's not particularly familiar with the OS X-specifics bits of OS X programming :p
00:16:43 <glx> and apple is good at breaking compatibility when API is updated
00:16:55 <orudge> of course, I can support OpenTTD on Wine on OS X ;)
00:16:58 <orudge> as hideous as it may be
00:17:11 <koda> well i'm going to check out the sources and see if i can lend a hand :)
00:17:22 <PeterT> I don't understand wine
00:17:35 <PeterT> where is the openttd.cfg?
00:17:40 <orudge> it's wherever you left it
00:17:40 <PeterT> not in the binary dir, anyways
00:17:52 <orudge> on Windows, openttd.cfg goes into My Documents, I do believe
00:17:54 <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: same place as on windows
00:18:11 <PeterT> I'll have to test it again later
00:18:46 <glx> anyway why run openttd with wine when there's a native port
00:18:48 <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: by default, mydocs is mapped on /home/<user>
00:19:16 <PeterT> anyway why run openttd with wine when there's a native port <-- some libraries aren't statically linked
00:19:47 <PeterT> you don't need to tell me
00:19:52 <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: but most distributions offer a correct package
00:20:16 <glx> and now most libs are linked statically IIRC
00:21:28 <PeterT> IS2.0-beta5 didn't have them statically linked
00:21:53 <glx> I don't care about non official builds :)
00:21:54 <PeterT> keeping in mind IS binaries are compiled with the compile farm, same thing that compiles nightlies....
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00:27:40 <koda> openttd is the first crossplatform game i see that is not build with cmake
00:28:01 <orudge> you've not seen many games, perhaps, I guess ;)
00:29:55 <Eddi|zuHause> it's funny that we don't use cmake _because_ of the cross-platform-ness ;)
00:30:40 <Eddi|zuHause> with cmake it was impossible to set up an osx cross compiler
00:32:21 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not "bad", we were like the first people to ever try to do that...
00:32:30 <planetmaker> there are not many places which do use a cross compiler
00:32:58 <koda> yeah a native build environment is always better, if possibile
00:33:29 <glx> but we did an impossible thing :)
00:34:10 <koda> checking SDL... OSX, skipping
00:34:26 <orudge> it's looking for the SDL library, which isn't there
00:34:40 <koda> what do you mean broken?
00:34:40 <planetmaker> well... not broken. But slower
00:34:46 <planetmaker> you don't use it on windows either
00:35:14 <Eddi|zuHause> and on half a dozen other platforms
00:35:18 <glx> we can use it on windows (but only for mingw by default, and dynamically loaded)
00:35:40 <PeterT> is the compile farm a dedicated server/computer?
00:35:53 <glx> and it's just a layer around native calls, so better use native calls
00:35:59 <planetmaker> it's certainly glx' laptop or iphone
00:36:39 <PeterT> well, if I really wanted, I could do it on my laptop
00:36:40 <glx> not really dedicated, but VMs on our server
00:37:14 <planetmaker> I only work on my laptop on OpenTTD ;-)
00:37:57 <koda> lol, -I/Users/mike/Documents/darwine/usr/include/libpng12 , any non-mike people will have hard times at compiling :)
00:38:32 <planetmaker> wth is that from?
00:38:52 <koda> from svn in the CFLAGS configure output
00:39:20 <Eddi|zuHause> well, of course, every other person will get a different configure output
00:39:41 <planetmaker> configure does what it says: configure for where it is being built and installed
00:39:41 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what configure is for
00:40:02 <koda> yeah, too bad my name is vittorio and i have no user called mike :)
00:40:27 <Eddi|zuHause> then your system is heavily screwed up
00:40:44 <PeterT> It's so that your linux doesn't compile windows files
00:41:16 <Eddi|zuHause> ... and his osx doesn't compile at all :p
00:41:59 <PeterT> nope, osx users must compile with shovel and ax
00:43:38 <koda> well, i got up to the linking stage
00:43:50 <PeterT> let me guess, an error?
00:44:05 <koda> missing png12, but that's fixable
00:44:19 <PeterT> are you compiling clean trunk or a patch build?
00:44:46 <koda> trunk, with some patches at the makefile.src.in
00:44:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know of any mike person ever involved with the build system...
00:44:48 <planetmaker> for that kind of error the question is irrelevant ;-)
00:45:27 <planetmaker> koda: so... you modify makefile.src.in, add a mike there and wonder about? ;-)
00:45:56 <koda> but i did not add any mike :-S
00:46:24 <peter1138> not our fault if your system is messed up :D
00:46:43 * koda longs for a cmake build system
00:46:56 <peter1138> pkg-config libpng --cflags
00:46:56 <peter1138> -I/usr/include/libpng12
00:47:13 <peter1138> yours says /Users/mike ... etc
00:48:15 <koda> i'm going to investigate that after i get a working build...
00:49:13 <peter1138> well you need that fixed to _get_ a working build
00:49:16 <planetmaker> koda: you can always specify the linker path manually
00:49:35 <planetmaker> maybe you have funny environ settings
00:49:43 <peter1138> btw, is SDL really slower on OSX, or was it just slower on bjarni's system with 8bpp?
00:49:50 <peter1138> if it is, as said, just a wrapper...
00:50:17 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it was said: sdl on windows is just a wrapper
00:50:27 <planetmaker> in order to give really an answer I'd have to really test that :-)
01:05:35 <_ln> koda: build system is not the issue with the Mac version (nor others)
01:06:19 <_ln> koda: besides, cmake is a pain in the ... if you want to compile for a system which doesn't have it installed and you don't have root access.
01:07:25 <koda> ... which is rarely the case
01:07:57 <koda> i was just puzzled by the configure script, it's really well done
01:08:22 <koda> but it's the first i analyze so i'm a little lost
01:08:22 <planetmaker> did you try with an unpatched build system?
01:08:38 <planetmaker> e.g. w/o mods to any makefile or so?
01:09:09 <koda> planetmaker: of course, but it fails at crashlog.cpp
01:09:42 <koda> missing includes, png.h and ft2build.h
01:10:05 <koda> i just added the proper dir in the makefile.inc.in
01:10:12 <planetmaker> well, I guess your system is really a bit need of maintenance.
01:10:13 <_ln> hmmm.... hmmmmm. you don't have X11 installed?
01:10:32 <planetmaker> did you try sudo port install libpng ?
01:10:35 * orudge should have an OS/2 build again soon :)
01:10:40 <orudge> whether it'll all work or not is nanother matter
01:11:51 <koda> lipng is already installed i just don't know how to tell the configure script where it is
01:12:05 <orudge> can you not just download and reinstall libpng? it's not a particularly large library
01:12:19 <glx> configure checks for include and libs usability too
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01:12:34 <glx> it it detected it then it should work
01:13:12 <koda> it detects it, but says it doesn't find it at linking stage
01:13:46 <_ln> orudge: your effort for the OS/2 version is much appreciated although I'm not a regular user anymore, not even on vm.
01:17:44 <_ln> what editor are you using on OS/2, btw?
01:18:36 <orudge> well, so far, I haven't needed to do any major editing. In the past, I've just used e for quick edits, but I can't say I especially like it. Recommendations are appreciated
01:18:40 <orudge> I guess I could probably get vi for OS/2, I'm sure
01:21:01 <_ln> (OS/2 binary is under 1.0 in the Files section)
01:22:59 <koda> cool, compiling out of source fails :\
01:27:19 <sparr> can anyone recommend a good [semi]public server? I'd like to keep playing multiplayer, but it's too easy for people to ruin the game on completely open servers
01:28:27 <planetmaker> easy-peasy-luckland is constantly advertizing
01:29:25 <PeterT> sparr: join #jonty for the answer...
01:30:36 <Xaroth> isn't advertising the channel where he could find such a server, kinda answering him already?
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01:35:15 <Xaroth> then I agree to disagree.
01:36:03 * orudge twiddles his thumbs while ICU compiles
01:39:18 <peter1138> although it won't run, as some stuff under bin isn't there
01:39:54 <koda> ok i'm past the linking stage, only 2 symbols missing
01:41:06 <Eddi|zuHause> your system is seriously screwed up or you simply didn't install all requirements
01:42:01 <koda> and the third option is...
02:01:01 <koda> after that? make bundle?
02:02:31 <sparr> is it intentional that the city airport limit applies to airports very far away if they are 'claimed' by the city (named after it)? how is such a claim determined?
02:02:52 <glx> koda: cd bin && ./openttd
02:03:06 <PeterT> is there a way to compile only one specific language file, and not all of them?
02:03:35 <koda> failed to find a sounds set (etc)
02:03:47 * koda goes reading readme.txt again
02:03:58 <PeterT> well, I haven't modified the others, so it won't compile them, but I don't want to compile the ENTIRE source all over again
02:04:05 <Eddi|zuHause> koda: that means it's working ;)
02:04:13 <PeterT> just english.txt -> english.lng
02:04:32 <glx> any change in english.txt means change in strings.h
02:05:02 <Eddi|zuHause> almost all files depend on strings.h
02:05:44 <glx> changes in stdafx.h are nice too :)
02:06:27 <koda> Eddi|zuHause: yep, had any doubts? ;)
02:06:40 <Eddi|zuHause> koda: yes, plenty
02:07:14 <glx> PeterT: wrong syntax in english_us.txt
02:07:18 <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: you screwed up the file?
02:09:07 <glx> +##name English (US)
02:09:31 <glx> blame your text editor :)
02:09:47 <glx> lang files are UTF8 without BOM
02:11:06 <PeterT> what do you edit the lang files with?
02:16:31 <koda> openttd: Mach-O 64-bit executable x86_64
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02:41:30 <PeterT> it seems koda just got an account
02:41:51 <PeterT> what are you replying to/
02:42:06 <koda> this project sounds challenging enough for me to hang around
02:42:18 <PeterT> have you seen my logo?
02:42:29 <PeterT> You have a blank signature, maybe you should add it :-)
02:42:37 <koda> i'm posting some hope in the "future of macosx" :)
02:45:59 <Majo> anybody on? I have a quick question
02:48:05 <Chrill> I'll do my best to help, Majo
02:48:27 <Majo> and i've changed date to 2015 so I can build biggest airports
02:48:53 <Majo> but I can't do it anywhere - it flashes me that cities councils are concerned with noise
02:49:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, they do that
02:49:18 <Chrill> you can turn off the noise level thingie there
02:49:55 <PeterT> Stations -> Allow town restricted noise level, etc..
02:51:07 <koda> i wonder if i can now try the sdl video backend...
02:51:20 <Majo> damn, I've searched like for an hour the answer
02:51:21 <orudge> hmm, IPv6 is proving a problem on OS/2
02:51:57 <Majo> thanks, and also congratz for devs for 1.0b!
02:53:24 <orudge> woo, enough hackery to get the first file to compile
02:54:50 <Eddi|zuHause> can't configure turn off ipv6?
02:55:42 <orudge> however, some tweaking and adding of stuff to os_abstraction.h in theory should be all I need
02:55:43 <Eddi|zuHause> so all or nothing...
02:55:51 <orudge> well, that plus a few #ifdefs
02:57:37 <DorpsGek> PeterT: koda was last seen in #openttd 6 minutes and 30 seconds ago: <koda> i wonder if i can now try the sdl video backend...
03:02:04 <PeterT> koda: will you put my logo in your sig?
03:03:22 <koda> PeterT: you wrote "Apple requires you to to purchase a machine for which development is so much harder."
03:03:54 <koda> actually developing for iphone uses 90% the same apis of standard macs
03:04:15 <koda> so if you learn one platform you automatically learn the other one
03:04:29 <koda> and if wouldn't call that "hard development" :)
03:06:13 <PeterT> they made jailbreaking iPhones/ipods illegal
03:06:26 <PeterT> koda: put this code in your sig
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03:07:20 <koda> that has nothing to do with development :)
03:08:22 <Eddi|zuHause> <PeterT> they made jailbreaking iPhones/ipods illegal <-- that's probably void if they wanted to go to court
03:08:43 <Eddi|zuHause> reverse engineering and stuff is legal for "providing compatibility"
03:08:53 <Eddi|zuHause> in most jurisdictions
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04:27:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: orudge * r18656 /trunk/src/thread/thread_os2.cpp: -Feature: Add event semaphore support for OS/2
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05:35:19 <orudge> hmm, well, it seems I shall have to do some more tweaking and prodding to get OpenTTD's networking to work properly on a system where IPv6 isn't supported, but that I may do tomorrow
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08:53:52 <sparr> what is the optimal design for a single track handling two way traffic?
08:54:15 <peter1138> whatever doesn't jam
08:54:45 <sparr> I can't come up with anything that handles more than [the number of parallel tracks at the waiting points]+2 trains
08:55:19 <sparr> can you be more specific on the topic of what doesn't jam?
08:55:38 <peter1138> you need passing places if you want more
08:56:37 <sparr> yes, but wide passing places?
08:57:24 <sparr> with just one extra track at the passing place i cant find a design that works for more than 3 trains
08:58:37 <roboboy> try using pre signals to block/allow trains in between passing lanes
08:58:59 <peter1138> if you're using path signals properly it won't jam until it's absolutely full
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09:00:21 <roboboy> but if the train needs to get in to a passing lane thats taken wont path signals not help?
09:00:56 <sparr> my problem is when there are trains in both passing lanes, and trains on both sides of the passing lanes on the single track
09:01:12 <sparr> if one of those sides is the end of the line, the system jams
09:01:57 <peter1138> roboboy, if it's taken, how will it get in it?
09:02:27 <roboboy> if its in the previous passing lane
09:02:31 <Brianetta> sparr: If you're using path signals, one of the passing tracks should be the single track
09:02:38 <Brianetta> That is, there should only be two signals
09:02:41 <sparr> peter1138: have an example screenshot, server, or save showing the proper way to use path signals?
09:03:03 <sparr> for this, not in general
09:03:35 <Brianetta> sparr: At the places in the passing place where you'd like trains to wait.
09:03:40 <Brianetta> That is, the exits.
09:03:48 <Brianetta> One in each direction, usually.
09:04:24 <sparr> if those are the only signals, then won't the first train that enters the track reserve (or block) the entire thing?
09:04:38 <Brianetta> Here's a general rule for path signals: Put them where you want trains to stop. If having a train stop at the signal would get int he way, don't put the signal there.
09:05:34 <Brianetta> Which version of openttd are you using?
09:05:52 <sparr> 0.7.5, 0.8-svn, 1.0-svn, and various patched versions
09:06:39 <Brianetta> I'll make you a saved game with many trains on a basic siongle line
09:06:57 <sparr> i've probably got whatever version you already have compiled
09:07:03 <sparr> if you want to use something other than 0.7.5
09:07:08 <Brianetta> 0.7.1 and some non-recent trunk
09:07:26 <peter1138> sparr, if will load in 0.7.5
09:08:39 <sparr> another item on my simple-patches-to-write list... replace "VERSION MISMATCH" with a message that gives the version the server is using... i hate having to go to the web to find out
09:09:33 <Brianetta> That's pretty much it
09:09:39 <peter1138> sparr, it's ... shown in the in-game server list
09:09:54 <sparr> ok, mentally adjusting to drive/signals on the left...
09:10:00 <Brianetta> peter1138: Some of us specify the game info on the cammand line
09:10:15 <peter1138> yes, but then you already know the details of the server...
09:10:23 <Brianetta> unless it got upgraded
09:10:32 <sparr> peter1138: in your picture, there is a train approaching from the top right, which has the track reserved up to the signal, yes?
09:10:55 <peter1138> i have another one of those passing spots
09:11:02 <peter1138> and another station of the same size
09:11:07 <peter1138> max capacity is 7 trains
09:11:18 <sparr> so the passing spot is one way... i think i get it
09:12:04 <Brianetta> Making it two-way without having somebody to make decisions (a signalman) isn't practical. All automatic passing places are one way.
09:12:29 <Brianetta> On narrow gauge lines, the points are often spring loaded.
09:15:34 <roboboy> does the dedicated server variant of OpenTTD use significantly less resources?
09:15:47 <sparr> I was trying to signal the "passing track" as two-way
09:16:03 <sparr> instead of having each direction pass on a specific side
09:16:11 <Brianetta> roboboy: It doesn't require an X server, though
09:16:26 <Brianetta> so the machine makes a RAM and CPU saving there
09:16:35 <Brianetta> unless you ruin X anyway
09:17:18 <Brianetta> sparr: Common practice is to put stations on passing places. These, two, should have two one-way platforms.
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09:31:43 <sparr> why would you put stations there?
09:32:54 <Brianetta> Because it's likely thst your trains will be stopping there anyway.
09:35:10 <sparr> but there's nothing there for a station to accomplish
09:35:28 <Brianetta> Then you could have thought about your track a little better (:
09:38:31 <sparr> the long distance rail intemtionally avoids industries :-p
09:38:40 <sparr> also, spelling failures indicate time to sleep
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10:10:12 <sparr> i encountered a bug earlier
10:10:31 <sparr> had an airport with an adjacent bus terminal with an adjacent bus terminal that was not the same station
10:10:45 <sparr> was unable to give a bus orders to visit the first (attached to the airport) bus terminal
10:11:02 <sparr> clicking on the terminal or the airport (with the Go To cursor) had no effect
10:11:12 <sparr> going to try to duplicate it when i get a chance, then file a bug report with a save
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10:26:54 <Taytay> hey, is there cargo destination in svn ?
10:29:35 <Zuu> Not in trunk if that is what you are trying to say.
10:30:23 <Zuu> There is the cargoist project, but they use git (not svn) and it is separate from the trunk.
10:31:42 <Taytay> Zuu: ok ! where can i find the repo ? I just found a mercurial on the wiki, but there is an error when i launch make
10:33:03 <Zuu> Check the development forum (forum 33)
10:33:39 <jonty-comp> there's bundles on the openttdcoop compile farm
10:39:22 <Zuu> There you get an introduction to the work.
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12:20:00 <SHADOW-XIII> just wanted to ask about availability of OTTD for ARM chips (linux) ? no chance for official support with everyday builds ?
12:21:18 <Rubidium> SHADOW-XIII: use Debian
12:23:10 <Rubidium> adding it to our compile farm is tricky because there are quite a few distributions and... at least two flavours of arm binaries
12:41:39 <FauxFaux> Cough opensuse build service cough.
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12:46:14 <SHADOW-XIV> Rubidium: but nothing close to nightly one ... :/
12:46:33 <planetmaker> build it yourself, SHADOW-XI
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14:05:36 <planetmaker> buenos dias, Belugas
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14:25:45 <michi_cc> orudge: You might want to look at os/2 clipboard stuff, it's probably broken. I looked at it while doing the OSX clipboard support and to me it seems to use some ansi encoding and not utf-8.
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14:26:38 <vittorio> ... wrong nick again
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15:20:12 <Belugas> so... screw Windows, screw MacOS, screw... what else??? Gaz, food, books, clothes...
15:20:30 <blathijs> TrueBrain_: Would it be a good idea to add a Ubuntu build in addition to the Debian Lenny build? Ubuntu Karmic no longer has libicu38, so the Debian Lenny deb doesn't work on Ubuntu right now.
15:20:42 <PeterT> No, I'm just not going to pay extra for something I don't need
15:21:04 <PeterT> I thought it was free, so I would download and put it on a VM
15:21:31 <__ln> is there evidence that anything really works on Karmic?
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15:24:05 <Ammler> blathijs: isn't that the reason, libicu is statically linked?
15:24:53 <Rubidium> blathijs: for Karmic they should use the generic binaries, not the ones for Lenny
15:26:22 <Rubidium> blathijs: but... *if* we're going to make packages for Ubuntu we ought to depend on libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio
15:27:05 <blathijs> Rubidium: Generic binaries aren't .debs, so that's only a partial solution
15:28:52 <Rubidium> blathijs: and .debs for *Lenny* aren't meant to be used for *Karmic*
15:29:30 <blathijs> Rubidium: I know, that's why I suggest adding debs for Karmic :-)
15:30:21 <blathijs> Rubidium: Depending on libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio is tricky, since that enforces the use of pulse, while that's not strictly needed.
15:30:43 <blathijs> But I agree that it greatly improves the out-of-the-box experience, though
15:30:51 <Rubidium> blathijs: otherwise you'll get inundated with bug reports about OpenTTD using 100% CPU
15:31:27 <blathijs> Rubidium: We didn't find the cause for that yet?
15:32:32 <Rubidium> blathijs: well some bug in sdl -> alsa -> pulseaudio
15:36:47 <Rubidium> e.g. it's a known bug with solution for tuxpaint too
15:37:11 <blathijs> tuxpaint? Some other SDL app?
15:37:29 <blathijs> And the fix doesn't apply to us?
15:37:47 <Rubidium> blathijs: yes, the fix applies to us too
15:38:21 <Rubidium> ... installing libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio
15:38:32 <Rubidium> i.e. *exactly* the same fix as the fix for us
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15:55:32 <Neon> Will evening the area e.g. around a farm increase it's produce?
15:57:08 <blathijs> Rubidium: That's not a fix, that's a workaround.
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16:01:42 <andythenorth> Neon: intriguing idea
16:01:47 <andythenorth> it *could* be coded that way
16:01:53 <andythenorth> but it's probably a bit strange :)
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16:40:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: spontaneous idea: for every tile loop that passes a farm field, if field is at end of cycle, add to a counter of the appropriate farm [farm info is already stored in the map]. farm produces if counter reaches a certain value
16:41:48 <PeterT> Why do giant screenshots always crash...
16:42:07 <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: because you run out of memory?
16:42:19 <PeterT> what is the memory needed?
16:43:07 <Eddi|zuHause> something like 32x16 pixels per tile
16:43:33 <PeterT> giant screenshot for map 512x1024
16:44:42 <Eddi|zuHause> something around 256MB, i think
16:44:44 <PeterT> strangely enough, it takes the screenshot, it just crashes
16:45:02 <Eddi|zuHause> "crash" is not an error message
16:45:44 <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: PNGs are compressed, the uncompressed size is relevant
16:46:05 <PeterT> How you do uncompress them? And why would you uncompress them?
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16:46:27 <zar> they're uncompressed in memory
16:46:36 <Eddi|zuHause> if you have to ask that, you have no idea how compressing works
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16:52:56 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: spontaneous idea...extend it to arbitrary tiles (use an action 2 or similar to choose sprites)
16:53:01 <koda> i still don't understand what are you looking for
16:53:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't follow
16:53:55 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: nvm...another time ;)
16:54:13 <andythenorth> koda: basically someone who both cares enough and has the skills to keep the OS X port alive
16:54:25 <andythenorth> *fully supported* with no weird bugs
16:54:28 <Eddi|zuHause> you by "arbitrary tiles" you mean "more industry-plantable tiles than just farm fields"?
16:54:34 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: yes
16:55:38 <andythenorth> it's an old drum I'm banging :D
16:56:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's fairly easy, with one catch: currently farm fields store the industry id, so that could be used to reference arbitrary industries, but this reference must stay valid when the industry closes
16:56:28 <koda> andythenorth: i believe that a crossplatform game should use crossplatform development tools, so since noone wants to deal with the objc part we could just use sdl for video rendering, io and other stuff
16:56:56 <andythenorth> koda: and there I'm rapidly out of my depth....all I know is:
16:57:07 <andythenorth> (1) giving Rubidium a mac doesn't solve the problem :o
16:57:25 <andythenorth> (2) I would be sad to see the OS X port disappear, but the crossover solution might work
16:57:48 <andythenorth> (3) I can't help with code. In fact, I haven't even done the mac testing I said I would :(
16:58:00 <andythenorth> (I don't really play the game very often)
16:58:30 <Belugas> koda, not that i want to be rude, but that's bullshit. there is no such thing. you NEED to be able to test and debug in the native platform, since all APIs are different in their implementations, and DO reaquire some adjustments, which require vry good knowledge of the underneath stuff
16:59:11 <koda> not true, if you use sdl everything platform specific is wrapped and you just have to deal with 1 api, that is the sdl one
16:59:32 <Eddi|zuHause> koda: you forget that sdl is not ported to 10.6 either
16:59:34 <_ln> koda: SDL is too slow (and possibly otherwise crappy too)
16:59:42 <andythenorth> hmm....I have some house tidying to do....Eddi|zuHause can we discuss industry tiles later? :)
17:00:06 <koda> and it's not slow, other games arrive at 250 fps
17:00:25 <koda> i can provide screenshots, do you have some proof supporting that sdl is not for 10.6 and it's slow?
17:01:01 <koda> it's true that using platform specific code you get more performance, but you can apply it only for very specific sections and only if you have some native enviroment to build on
17:01:16 <koda> as this is not the case, dropping to a crosscompiler is difficult and dangerous
17:01:38 <_ln> koda: afaik, the Mac port initially used SDL, but it was dropped when better, native implementations were written.
17:01:40 <koda> so the code should use only portable api such as sdl or other libraris
17:02:08 <Eddi|zuHause> koda: i make a vague proposal: you have no real clue what you're talking about.
17:02:45 <zar> using a portable api is surely wiser if there's nobody to keep the native implementations up-to-date :)
17:03:04 <koda> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, that goes along "you're build enviroment is broken" of yesterday that led my to a successfull build...
17:03:12 <_ln> assuming there is someone to keep the portable api's implementation up-to-date.
17:03:20 <Eddi|zuHause> zar: but there's nobody who can keep the portable implementations up to date either
17:03:34 <koda> _ln: it appears that the native implementation has been deprecated quickly
17:03:46 <zar> Eddi|zuHause: with for example SDL, that's someone else's problem
17:04:00 <glx> yes Apple deprecates stuff with each new version
17:04:16 <_ln> zar: no, it's "our" problem if it doesn't work well enough for "us".
17:04:30 <koda> one more reason to drop the burden to someone else, like sdl guys
17:04:44 <_ln> glx: and Microsoft never deprecates any stuff, which is not the greatest option either.
17:04:45 <glx> we'll still get the complaints
17:04:50 <zar> _ln: well, if the api isn't horribly broken, it's still less of a burden.
17:05:09 <glx> _ln: it does deprecate stuff (like dmusic)
17:05:51 <planetmaker> [18:03] <koda> _ln: it appears that the native implementation has been deprecated quickly <-- if you call two years quickly...
17:06:49 <planetmaker> it is quickly, though, by X11 standards.
17:07:58 <Belugas> sometimes... people are just... pffffffff
17:08:09 <planetmaker> besides there's not much point in a "you do it wrong" discussion. By whatever means you chose, you'll need a native port maintainer in any case.
17:08:18 * Belugas goes back to listening mode...
17:08:28 <glx> and remember openttd still runs on 10.3.9 :)
17:08:34 <zar> i'd like to maintain the port, but i lack the skills. :)
17:08:51 <zar> i guess that's the case for many people.
17:09:27 <koda> :) sorry let me rephrase that, what i meant that if one guy makes a native port and then drops it at any moment, maybe it should have been better to keep the code not-platform specific
17:09:30 <planetmaker> sillls can be aquired, though
17:09:47 <planetmaker> koda: also that statement is pointless.
17:10:12 <planetmaker> _you_ _should_ _have_ _done_
17:10:15 <glx> we use platform specific for all platforms
17:10:20 <planetmaker> in this combination it's a very bad one
17:10:27 <_ln> koda: the safest way would have been not to write the game in the first place.
17:10:53 <glx> anyway the main problem with OSX port was the porter ;)
17:11:02 <zar> shouldn't you be thinking about how to improve the situation.
17:11:11 <zar> instead of fighting like little kids
17:11:27 <_ln> we need to order a clone of Bjarni from some rogue scientist.
17:11:30 <glx> SDL used to crash on exit
17:11:41 <koda> planetmaker: ok my choice of words is poor, but try to get my message
17:11:51 <koda> the osx port should not be abandoned
17:11:56 <planetmaker> zar: absolutely. In my experience it's always ok and welcome, if you supply patches.
17:12:16 <koda> and since noone wants to step up, just try to keep the code compilable with crossplatform apis
17:12:27 <planetmaker> koda: well. It's not abandoned. There's no one of the current devs who can run it natively.
17:12:30 <planetmaker> And that's a problem
17:12:41 <_ln> zar: fighting and finding the persons to blame has been the channel policy since the beginning.
17:12:43 <zar> we have another project running on SDL, and it somewhat works with OS X 10.6 too, so at least it's not completely broken.
17:12:58 <planetmaker> even if you work cross-platform. You need to test whether it works. It's not everything smoothly portable.
17:13:31 <glx> I can only test 10.3.9 in pearpc and 10.4.8 in vmware
17:13:48 <koda> well so you'd need someone who can build it and check it works fine?
17:13:55 <zar> testers are easier to get than developers :)
17:14:10 <planetmaker> how do you want to port system font detection? chinese character input? You need some system calls for that
17:14:23 <Alberth> somebody that fixes the problems when they arise is needed
17:14:51 <Belugas> koda, seeing how hard Rubidium tried to keep it alive, i would say that he did his best to keep it alive. If HE failed to solve the problems, then he REALLY needs someone WHO KOWS to step in. He tried. TI was not just out of bad will.
17:14:54 * worldemar wants japanese input
17:15:28 <glx> and we need someone to implement it
17:15:34 <koda> Belugas: but i can't understand WHAT the problems are, can you point me to them
17:15:46 <planetmaker> koda: look at flyspray
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17:16:24 <planetmaker> and it needs *someone* to actually take care of it. To fix OS-specific bugs somewhat timely
17:17:04 <planetmaker> and then there's the problem of the compile farm...
17:17:25 <planetmaker> ... a native X-Serve is hard to come by, if you don't want to spend $$$
17:17:51 <Eddi|zuHause> compile farm is not the problem, testing environment is
17:17:56 <planetmaker> glx: yes. And much appreciated :-)
17:18:17 <glx> it even generates universal builds
17:18:38 <koda> we could add a mac mini server to the farm :D
17:18:44 <koda> less costly than xserves
17:19:43 <glx> and as said compilation is not the problem
17:19:49 <Alberth> must be rack-mountable
17:20:54 <Belugas> adding a server for each supported platform is a good idea. why didn't we though of that before ;)
17:21:16 <Belugas> after all, we do cross plactform, so we must have different plactforms available, right?
17:21:36 <glx> we use native for all builds except OSX
17:21:57 <glx> because it's quite impossible to set up OSX in a virtual machine
17:22:31 <zar> there seems to be an IME editor in planning for SDL
17:26:33 <glx> VirtualBox (I won't do it) <-- that's our problem :)
17:27:39 <planetmaker> yeah... if it has to be virtual box... :-)
17:29:07 <glx> oh and the server is AMD IIRC :)
17:35:27 <planetmaker> Not sure how much hassle it is, though
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18:00:43 *** PeterT was kicked by DorpsGek (Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.)
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18:04:01 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Pikka was last seen in #openttd 3 weeks, 1 day, 6 hours, 44 minutes, and 28 seconds ago: <Pikka> a certain other project :P
18:07:48 <planetmaker> I guess he's more around in the forums, andythenorth
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18:27:07 <Alberth> ie the 'hopelessly outdated' issue is a collection of OSX things that need fixing
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18:28:21 <ashb> the OSX port has a lot of objc code - it doesn't use SDL for events does it?
18:28:30 <ashb> or is most of hte objc to do with rendering?
18:28:40 <_ln> but since 1140 is about an OSX-only feature, ... one can't claim it works worse on OSX than others.
18:28:48 <planetmaker> ashb: no, it usess the native cocoa / carbon features
18:28:54 <_ln> ashb: the OS X port doesn't use SDL at all, afaik.
18:28:59 <planetmaker> and apple has its API in objc
18:29:26 <ashb> (i.e. is there a good reason or just 'it doesnt')
18:29:39 <planetmaker> there probably was one back then
18:29:55 <_ln> [18:59] <_ln> koda: SDL is too slow (and possibly otherwise crappy too)
18:29:55 <planetmaker> and "it doesn't" certainly applies. No one made it an option.
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18:30:36 <ashb> Rubidium: so dont statically link? ;)
18:30:40 <Rubidium> ashb: even then SDL misses functions to determine what font to use for a given language
18:31:07 <glx> ashb: and expect users will have SDL lib installed ?
18:31:15 <ashb> glx: you can bundle it in the .app
18:31:44 <planetmaker> he... SDL is certainly not a default install on mac
18:31:49 <ashb> @executable_path/../lib/libsdl.dylib
18:31:56 <_ln> planetmaker: as hinted by Bjarni's comment in /2, SDL was used on OS X earlier.
18:32:13 <planetmaker> _ln: yes. I figured ;-)
18:32:48 <ashb> 'so dynamic linking is out of the question (they don't like opening libs in non-standard locations)'
18:33:25 <glx> we dropped 10.2 support a long time ago
18:33:27 <Rubidium> ashb: there are more fishy things...
18:34:03 <planetmaker> he... Bjarni really didn't like SDL it seems ;-)
18:34:04 <Rubidium> anyhow, it would require someone to properly build *and* test a universal library, incorporate that into the compile farm
18:34:29 <ashb> Rubidium: i'm just idly wondering if its worth investing time in SDL
18:35:07 <ashb> or just drop support for PPC, since 'supporting' intel macs is better than supporting no macs
18:35:40 <Rubidium> ashb: well, I'd propose dropping Intel support, because that has been giving all the trouble the last 3 years
18:36:11 <planetmaker> intel macs are the future of macos
18:36:14 <ashb> PPC hasn't been sold for about 5 years now
18:36:31 <planetmaker> and with the current retail price of snow leopard it will probably spread quite quickly
18:36:41 <andythenorth> anyone still using OS 9 or 8 is in a world of crashy pain. Kind of nice to look at, but massively unstable
18:36:42 <_ln> andythenorth: because Intel Mac owners have various ways to run Windows® on their Mac, and play OTTD on Windows. On PPC not so much.
18:37:12 <planetmaker> _ln: ppc users can run a flavour of *nix
18:37:17 <glx> and we still support 10.3.9 ppc :)
18:37:26 <andythenorth> if PPC support is being dropped anyway, how do PPC owners lose out if the intel build continues?
18:37:33 <andythenorth> they lose the same amount either way
18:37:49 <_ln> PPC support is not being dropped.
18:37:51 <planetmaker> glx: honestly, but if 10.3.x and 10.4 are in the way of a port maintained or not - I'd strongly vote for dropping that support.
18:38:16 <Rubidium> planetmaker: but it's primarily 10.5 and 10.6 on Intel that's in the way...
18:38:32 <glx> ppc is not the problem indeed :)
18:38:53 <glx> all trouble started with 10.5
18:39:42 <andythenorth> it's kind of strange that the newgrf tools got a mac build, but the game drops the mac support. I know why, just seems weird.
18:40:08 <andythenorth> I only bought Crossover to use grfcodec, now I will need it for the game and have a mac native grfcodec at the same time
18:40:13 <planetmaker> :-) well... only FS3194 could be considered specific to 10.6. All other OSX bugs are native to all.
18:40:38 <planetmaker> I'd rather say the trouble started with Bjarni going bye bye...
18:41:04 <ashb> and an SDL port would be much easier to maintain, no?
18:41:24 <planetmaker> ashb: did you look at the list of open bugs?
18:41:33 <ashb> no. i was just idly wondering
18:41:49 <planetmaker> they don't really look like SDL would solve any of them
18:43:37 <planetmaker> I just remember though, the pain to get SDL installed on my machine in the first place :-)
18:43:50 <ashb> download a dmg isn't it?
18:43:51 <planetmaker> I had to wait for an SDL update
18:44:04 <planetmaker> sudo port sdllib install
18:44:11 <ashb> also bundle it in the .app and no one but devs have to install it
18:44:14 <planetmaker> the dmg failed horribly
18:44:16 <ashb> eugh. macports is full of fail
18:44:18 <Rubidium> ashb: that would still require a maintainer to see whether the bug is in OpenTTD or in SDL
18:44:54 <ashb> Rubidium: sure, but it also means much less osx specific code
18:45:45 <peter1138> let's drop all non-sdl targets :D
18:45:50 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r18657 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:45:50 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:50 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 174 changes by burgerd
18:45:50 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 10 changes by arnau
18:45:50 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 36 changes by
18:45:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 7 changes by Zhygometh
18:45:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: swedish - 32 changes by Landrash
18:46:01 <PeterT> Aw, nothing interesting
18:46:35 <andythenorth> PeterT: depends if you speak Afrikaans, no?
18:46:36 <planetmaker> let's see whether I get it compiled with SDL only...
18:46:51 <planetmaker> --with-sdl --disable-cocoa-quartz --disable-cocoa-quickdraw
18:47:52 <ashb> planetmaker: fwif the way i'd suggest doing it 'properly' is with using sdl as a framework
18:48:35 <ashb> as those are easier to embed in an app
18:48:50 <Terkhen> the croatian translator has an interesting nick
18:48:51 <planetmaker> yes indeed they are
18:49:28 <planetmaker> psst, don't speaketh that name!
18:49:57 <planetmaker> ashb: but then it will require to have SDL installed as a framework... wich might pose problems in itself.
18:50:11 <ashb> no you can put that inside hte .app which gets distributed
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18:50:38 <glx> and we're back to need universal build of that lib
18:50:49 <planetmaker> universal libs... how 'nice'
18:51:49 <_ln> glx: universally-built SDL frameworks are available at libsdl.org... (dunno what versions exactly do they support)
18:52:29 <_ln> anyway, let's just wait a while while planetmaker builds the OSX version against SDL, and let's hear his report then.
18:53:18 <planetmaker> well... there's no easy way to completely disable cocoa...
18:57:39 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18658 /trunk/src/lang/ (42 files): -Fix [FS#3443]: wrong strings drawn for cargo subtype in vehicle details
18:58:06 <Rubidium> ashb: don't forget midi playback
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19:00:33 <planetmaker> right. It compiles, it works. But nice is something else:
19:00:36 <planetmaker> dbg: [driver] Setting video mode failed, falling back to 640x480 windowed mode.
19:00:38 <planetmaker> 2009-12-29 19:59:30.919 openttd[31007:8f0b] *** __NSAutoreleaseNoPool(): Object 0x114bd30e0 of class NSWindowGraphicsContext autoreleased with no pool in place - just leaking
19:00:48 <planetmaker> and zillions of those. And the colours are fucked up
19:01:23 <Rubidium> planetmaker: so it works 'just fine'
19:01:46 <planetmaker> I feel somehow quoted...
19:02:21 <Rubidium> hmm... differently, it solves FS#3194 because it's not flickering with the wrong colour, but just the wrong colour
19:02:56 <planetmaker> dunno. I'll try a screenshot. Looks... interesting. Blue is over-emphasized.
19:03:07 <planetmaker> everything in a snowy-blue-ish look
19:03:39 <Rubidium> oh, so the AI must be very good
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19:06:16 <planetmaker> should I attach the screenshot to FS#3194 or make a separate issue?
19:06:40 <Rubidium> well.. it's an SDL issue?
19:06:49 <Rubidium> make it a separate one
19:07:13 <Rubidium> then I can easily link that when they 'again' propose to go to SDL
19:07:43 <planetmaker> colour is not the only one. The window resize box also leaves smears / glitches
19:08:19 <Rubidium> so SDL isn't that unified across platforms as it's supposed to be... OR ... it's just plain old buggy on OSX
19:09:26 <planetmaker> hm... it looks similar to the resizing issue I once reported on my linux box. Not the same, but the smear is also limited to a certain x-extend of the window
19:09:51 <planetmaker> and only appears above a certain y-size.
19:10:45 <andythenorth> planetmaker: umm....your changes to the parameters broke FIRS :o
19:11:01 <andythenorth> now incompatible with NARS 2
19:12:08 <andythenorth> at least I think it's your changes :D
19:12:16 <planetmaker> I think it was before.
19:12:47 <andythenorth> I'll go read the code
19:12:48 <planetmaker> at least for certain parameters of NARS
19:13:04 <andythenorth> I played my last game with NARS 2, no parameters
19:16:03 <planetmaker> Nice. I got an assertion upon closing OpenTTD
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19:34:00 <_ln> just remember that any of those problems encountered by planetmaker is not "our" problem, but the SDL guys'.
19:34:54 <_ln> after the principle suggested earlier
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19:37:19 <Elessar> I saw an option to allow to corrupt municipalities.
19:37:37 <Elessar> How does that actually work, is it by paying promotion campaigns?
19:38:14 <Elessar> In fact I have a city that is denying me to build a station.
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19:40:36 <_ln> planetmaker: you could paste that link privately to mr. koda.
19:41:45 <planetmaker> well, he left. But he'll come back and anyone can now point him there.
19:41:48 <Rubidium> planetmaker: hmm, it's even quite a bit worse than I thought
19:41:56 <planetmaker> He could as well have tested it...
19:42:20 <Rubidium> the crash.log shows quite well that it's crashing in SDL
19:42:46 <planetmaker> Rubidium: yeah... the crash bugs me. Happens only from ingame. And the debug says it's leaking memory like hell, if I understand that correctly
19:45:00 <planetmaker> he... I didn't reset my graphics set from the last testing ;-)
19:48:09 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: orudge * r18659 /trunk/os/windows/installer/install.nsi: -Fix: Some minor language corrections in installer
19:48:26 <Wolf01> gah.. 27 pages of topic subscriptions in the forum...
19:49:34 <welshdragon> orudge just made a commit!
19:49:40 <orudge> It has been known to happen
19:49:41 <planetmaker> 2nd one in 24 hours
19:50:04 <Wolf01> @site admin: is possible to fix that nasty bug with the hg rss? it always append :8084 to the address and the link does not work
19:50:18 <orudge> welshdragon: once every few months, indeed
19:50:22 <planetmaker> check the logs, welshdragon :-)
19:51:48 <planetmaker> But it wouldn't change much, I think
19:52:07 <planetmaker> people would then call their server §aaaaaanother cool server" or so
19:57:19 <Belugas> would still be better than the stupidity currentyl available...
19:57:44 <planetmaker> well, it's probably worth the surprise :-)
19:58:49 <planetmaker> peter1138: better (but much more work): make it an option. Disabled by default. Then the sensible people can enjoy it :-)
20:00:16 <Belugas> ENABLED by default...
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20:03:07 <Alberth> nah, you want 1/2 of the players to use the option and 1/2 of the players not to use the option. Perhaps use a different sorting based on the name of the player? :p
20:04:31 <planetmaker> hehe. No, rather a cfg only option. Then most won't notice.
20:04:39 <peter1138> planetmaker, good idea ;)
20:05:03 <Rubidium> why not a cfg only option to just not show those servers at all?
20:05:38 *** josh is now known as Guest1017
20:05:51 <planetmaker> well... it wouldn't show #openttdcoop ;-)
20:06:01 <planetmaker> I don't mind the sorting, but that's our name
20:06:32 <planetmaker> going by client count by default is the best, though IMO
20:06:37 *** Guest1017 is now known as joshy
20:06:57 *** joshy is now known as darkmonkey
20:07:14 <Alberth> not sure whether 'all' is here, but hello
20:08:10 <darkmonkey> i found openttd recently (1.0 beta) and must say it's very very awesome
20:09:01 <darkmonkey> yup - i always loved rct as well
20:09:44 <luk3Z> wrong command & quit accidently ;)
20:10:33 <darkmonkey> i haven't had chance to trawl through the bug tracker but - my trains occasionally stop at stations and refuse to move after that - despite having no 'wait for full load' or signals stopping them
20:10:43 <darkmonkey> is that a bug or just..gameplay?
20:11:09 <planetmaker> do they still load?
20:11:24 <planetmaker> e.g. is cargo slowly tickling into the station?
20:12:08 <darkmonkey> on a station which had oil and then the oil wells disappeared
20:12:25 <darkmonkey> disappeared when the train was en-route
20:12:56 <darkmonkey> i could understand if it was waiting for a load but i specifically told it to go somewhere else and ignore the signals
20:14:08 <Alberth> you have a save game?
20:14:28 <Alberth> you may want to post it at the general openttd forum
20:15:22 <Alberth> you were not playing with time tables by accident?
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20:21:01 <darkmonkey> Alberth no save game and no timetables - was the first time i played openttd and was just getting to grips with it
20:21:06 <darkmonkey> if i can replicate it i will save and post
20:21:50 <luk3Z> does OpenSFX working with OTTD 0.7.5 ?
20:22:03 <Alberth> darkmonkey: that's usually the simplest approach. Explaining in text is difficult, with a save game you'll get quick response
20:22:31 <luk3Z> i saw 0.8.0 in readme but I want to know anyway :P
20:22:36 <darkmonkey> Alberth yea, thanks. i know as much and should have saved really :>
20:22:55 <Alberth> darkmonkey: there are also autosaves
20:23:55 <darkmonkey> i had never saved the game (fresh install) so where would it have put them?
20:23:56 <Alberth> in save/autosave at my system. Maybe you have an old version
20:24:07 <darkmonkey> i have latest 1.0.0 beta
20:24:42 <Alberth> depends on your config. simplest way is to start a game, and save :)
20:25:19 <darkmonkey> ok will look into it, cheers
20:25:48 <Alberth> alternatively, look for .sav files
20:26:46 <darkmonkey> also, other q: is there anywhere which gives best practise advice on building busy railways? i understand the signals (to an extent) but i will end up with lots of trains queuing for track space
20:27:02 <darkmonkey> wiki is very helpful in teaching basics but not ^
20:28:56 <Belugas> lots of answers there
20:29:06 <Belugas> yeah... you have to search by yourself ;)
20:29:58 <darkmonkey> i did search, didn't find anything
20:30:05 <darkmonkey> well, didn't find anything too helpful
20:30:24 <darkmonkey> i will play around and hope for the best
20:30:26 <darkmonkey> all part of the fun
20:31:57 <planetmaker> or look at the coop wiki
20:32:04 <planetmaker> </shameless plug>
20:32:09 <peter1138> only if you want silly layout s;p
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20:32:51 <darkmonkey> Alberth - slightly useful but nothing definitive
20:33:13 <darkmonkey> my query, abstractly, is - is there anywhere other than the wiki that has 'tutorials'?
20:33:17 <Alberth> I don't think there is anything definitive
20:33:51 <Alberth> there are several different playing styles
20:34:22 <darkmonkey> i will play some more and work it out =]
20:34:34 <SpComb^> I'm fairly sure there are some other random guides as well
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20:35:42 <darkmonkey> thanks, that looks very helpful, SpComb^ ^_^
20:36:44 <SpComb^> I've seen a better one, though
20:37:04 <Alberth> Imho discovering how to do things is all part of the fun. If you are stuck, post a question about something specific, and I am sure you'll get useful answers.
20:37:43 <darkmonkey> yea, i agree to an extent
20:37:49 <darkmonkey> just looking for a push in the right direction
20:37:56 <Wolf01> I must go now, I don't think I'll be here for the 1th day of 2010, so I wish you a happy new year :)
20:39:05 <Alberth> you can download a few save games, and have a look how other do things.
20:39:48 <darkmonkey> the community around openttd seems to be very good
20:39:56 <darkmonkey> the wikis are the best i've seen for opensource projects
20:40:25 <Zuu> Nice, 200 line long squirrel function to rearange airplanes to a new set of pairs (given from tabu search). Now, let see how many errors it contains. :-)
20:40:47 <Alberth> for new users it is not so good imho. Problem is there are not many newbie users that write wiki
20:41:17 <darkmonkey> true - but for instance the timetabling tutorial is very clear
20:41:45 <Alberth> yes, the more advanced stuff is quite good
20:42:45 <darkmonkey> in rollercoaster tycoon 2 when building coasters or paths etc, you could set a starting piece and then click the direction arrows to make a new block (rather than dragging on openttd or piece by piece)
20:43:03 <darkmonkey> are there any plans to do something like this in openttd?
20:43:28 <Zuu> There has been suggestions and I think TTDPatch might have something like that.
20:43:56 <Zuu> But at the scale of OpenTTD I don't really see me wanting to click that many times.
20:44:10 <darkmonkey> ah cool. can ttdpatch be used with openttd then? from the forums i got the impression ttdpatch was for the original TTD not openTTD
20:44:15 <Zuu> Then it is just easier to drag out the rails.
20:44:17 <darkmonkey> oh, true, Zuu, true
20:44:32 <Zuu> TTDPatch can be used with TTD.
20:45:11 <Zuu> No, it uses the original data from TTD.
20:45:54 <Zuu> Either you use the TTDPatch excutable file or the OpenTTD excutable file.
20:46:27 <Alberth> I don't think it is a good idea btw
20:47:01 <darkmonkey> ok - thanks. having thought about the scale of openttd i realise it's probably not either
20:49:02 <Alberth> rail tracks are much less complicated to lay down than a curvy rct track :p
20:52:04 <darkmonkey> bck in a bit, thanks for your help guys =]
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21:22:12 <sleejer> can i ask a gameplay related question here?
21:22:26 <jonty-comp> it depends whether we know the answer or not
21:27:51 <eQualizer> Any luck finding any OSX developer?
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21:35:05 <_ln> not having an OS X developer has been like the topic of the day here
21:44:46 <sleejer> sorry phone just rang when i was going to ask
21:44:49 <sleejer> I have a train with oil tankers and goods vans that loads oil and unloads goods in station A, and vice versa in station B
21:45:04 <sleejer> However, in station A (which doesn't accept goods), the train loads the goods again and i don't want that to happen
21:45:15 <sleejer> Which orders should i give to prevent this?
21:45:52 <Rubidium> you want to unload a cargo that isn't accepted and load another cargo at the same time? That's not going to work
21:47:02 <planetmaker> you could kinda trick around that by making two adjacent stations. One where you transfer, the other where you pickup
21:47:18 <planetmaker> but whether that's nice or ugly is quite subjective
21:51:53 <vittorio> _ln actually the topics of the day has been how osx suck and what a burden we have supporting it :D
21:53:08 *** vittorio is now known as koda
21:54:07 <sparr> i'll take OSX over windows, for usage AND development, any day
21:55:14 <Rubidium> good luck with maintaining the OS X port then :)
21:55:45 <Rubidium> I'll rather support Windows with it's interesting differences than OS X
21:58:42 <koda> i wouldn't call them "interesting" but i guess it's a development choice
22:00:04 <Rubidium> koda: the difference between Korean, Chinese and 'the rest' w.r.t. handling font names/paths is interesting :)
22:00:58 <Rubidium> making OpenTTD not compile anymore *each* and *every* major release of Apple stops to be interesting quite fast
22:04:09 <Rubidium> and it's quite nice that with a small amount of effort you can support a 15 year old OS, whereas you simply cannot support Mac OS X 10.3.8, which is less than 5 years old
22:05:24 <koda> security concerns apart, that statement might be true for some windows user who is still under win98 but 99,9% of macos users are on 10.4 onwards
22:05:42 <Rubidium> and I've had more fun figuring out bugs in Windows than bugs in OS X
22:09:56 * Belugas goes home. He had enough stupidity for a day
22:12:00 <Rubidium> there are probably less people with Mac OS X Snow Leopard downloading OpenTTD than people with Win9x downloading OpenTTD
22:12:34 <Rubidium> and panther seems to be used by ~1.3%
22:13:02 <koda> ... well go on with that attitude towards mac users and you'll see an even lower percentage :)
22:13:10 <PeterT> Rubidium: Where are you getting these stats from?
22:15:35 * Belugas realized he forgot his headphones while out of the building. koda, the "stupidity" stuff was not sent toward you, if ever you felt like it...
22:16:24 <_ln> koda: did you see planetmaker's bug report?
22:17:35 <koda> yes i took note of the fullscreen glitch and of the mouse issue
22:19:11 <koda> oh that's something interesting
22:20:17 <_ln> so there we go with cross-platform libraries and their painlessness
22:20:48 <koda> i didn't say they were painless, just easier to mantain among platforms
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22:28:33 <Rubidium> koda: the problem I have with Mac users, at least the ones that voice their anger w.r.t. our decision to not officially support the port anymore, is that they assume that Mac OS X support is easy and way less work than platform X yet for OpenTTD it seems to be completely the opposite world
22:29:23 <Rubidium> and their solution usually is: oh, just give an existing developer a Mac and the problems solves itself magically
22:30:08 <Rubidium> but it requires the developer getting the Mac to be interesting in going through the hassle of learning the Mac API and figuring out what can be used and in what way
22:30:34 <Rubidium> and that's what takes a ginormous amount of time
22:31:12 <_ln> but it's free software, it should magically fix itself
22:31:28 <Rubidium> time I myself rather invest in other things, but then 'my' attitude becomes hostile towards the Mac users because I do not fix the port their are interested in
22:32:38 <Rubidium> but in the same way you can 'map' that attitude to all Mac users because they can't be bothered to fix the bugs
22:33:15 <_ln> some of them can't, because it would result in a kick
22:33:24 <Rubidium> and don't come with the argument that Mac users can't code, because it's just something that can be learnt as long as you are willing to put the effort into it
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22:36:26 <vittorio> but in order to get help, you should also give help
22:36:32 *** vittorio is now known as koda
22:36:55 <Rubidium> well, what can I do?
22:37:17 <koda> and since i showed up yesterday i've been hearing pointless accuses about how osx sucks and how my build system is broken
22:38:08 <Yexo> koda: best way to prove those accusations wrong is by providing a patch fixing a bug
22:38:30 <Rubidium> koda: any idea where my accusations of OS X sucking are based on?
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22:39:03 <koda> Rubidium: that was not referred to you, you're the one who actually started making sense
22:39:12 <koda> Yexo: i can't decrypt a 20000 lines program without developers help
22:39:31 <Yexo> you're at the right place to ask for help here
22:40:07 <glx> MSDN is way better than OSX API documentation :)
22:41:31 * SpComb^ buries glx underground
22:41:33 <koda> glx that statement is wrong on so many levels that you can't expect anyone to actually believe you're being serios
22:42:31 <Rubidium> koda: hmm, then I'm unbelievable too
22:43:16 <Rubidium> but okay, that's my personal opinion on finding a method to determine what font would be best for a given language
22:44:15 <koda> you can say that you don't like objc, but stating that msdn has a nice documentation is like saying windows me is a powerful and secure operating system
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22:44:37 <glx> I have no problems with objc
22:45:19 <koda> anyways we're way off topic
22:45:47 <koda> and i think that we just had a bad start
22:45:55 <glx> I just say finding the function I need is easier in MSDN than in OSX doc
22:46:55 <koda> yeah option double click on the function to open it in the documentation is much slower than copying the function, open the browser and paste it msdn search engine...
22:47:20 <koda> but that's personal taste
22:47:46 <sparr> glx: finding the function, yes. finding accurate documentation of what it does or how it works? no chance in hell.
22:48:01 <sparr> if HALF of the information in MSDN is accurate (and not just "usually right") i would be amazed
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22:50:39 <Rubidium> yup, it's all personal taste. I rather find some dodgy information than no information at all :)
22:53:04 <Terkhen> I have been using MSDN a lot lately... I'm thankul that the documentation is good: the functions are confusing enough
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23:04:35 <sparr> why would high station spread make the game run slower (as it warns in the gui)?
23:05:02 <sparr> Rubidium: five years from now when i have to support your code, I would rather you have spent twice as long finding the right information than have used dodgy information at all.
23:05:40 <Rubidium> because houses/industries need to search further to find out there is no station that will take their cargo
23:05:45 <sparr> thorough-but-wrong documentation from MS regarding MS technologies are the reason for the majority of software issues in the world today
23:06:07 <sparr> why do they need to search further? station spread affects placement, not reach
23:06:35 <sparr> that is, no matter what you set station spread to, no station tile reaches houses more than [intercontinental airport range] away
23:06:39 <glx> the warning has been removed IIRC
23:06:58 <Rubidium> because with a 64 station spread the closest tile might be ~30 tiles away, which it still falls within the reach of the station
23:07:27 <Rubidium> with a 8 tile spread it's at most 3 tiles
23:07:30 <sparr> you are mixing up station coverage with station spread
23:07:36 <glx> hmm it's still there indeed, but when it was added station spread was not cached
23:08:09 <sparr> a house has to search 12 tiles away because that's the range of an intercontinental airport, regardless of what station spread is set to
23:09:12 <sparr> if the nearest station to a house is 13 tiles away, it will not be supplied or taken from, regardless of what station spread is set to
23:09:22 <glx> take a station consisting of 2 bus stops at opposite corners of the max spread
23:10:00 <glx> coverage includes all tiles in between
23:10:21 <sparr> not as indicated in the documentation, the wiki, or on the coverage gui
23:10:35 <sparr> coverage includes all tiles within 4 tiles of either of the two bus stops
23:10:57 <glx> coverage is a square containing coverage of all parts of the station
23:11:15 <sparr> i believe that to be incorrect, and am going to check. brb
23:12:27 <sparr> i find that you are correct... and that every source of information on the subject is wrong
23:13:02 <sparr> that is an amazingly useful piece of information that no person i have discussed station walk with has ever possessed
23:13:48 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r18660 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Cleanup: remove useless function
23:14:25 <sparr> so with spread 12, two bus stops of nominal 9x9 coverage can cover every tile in a 20x20 swuare
23:15:58 <Yexo> that's only for delivery of cargo, the houses in between the stops don't supply cargo to the station
23:16:21 <Yexo> and I'm sure it's mentioned in several forum topics
23:16:22 <sparr> Yexo: that is both confusing and enlightening
23:16:35 <sparr> "mentioned in several forum topics" != documented
23:16:36 <Yexo> but there is indeed a lot of wrong information about the topic
23:18:34 <sparr> so coverage for 'accepts' is the whole square, while coverage for 'produces' is just the coverage of the individual station tiles
23:18:59 <sparr> that seems like silly design, why?
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23:19:47 <sparr> err, i would *expect* both ways to use the faster method
23:19:51 <Yexo> for 'accepts' you search from the station, so it's faster to search the whole square then to check each tile
23:19:55 <sparr> why do the whole-box search at all?
23:20:10 <Yexo> for 'produces' you search from the house/industry, so it's faster to check if a single station tile is in range
23:20:52 <sparr> that is very counter-intuitive
23:21:02 <glx> because it's easier to store a big box than an union of small boxes
23:21:32 <_ln> planetmaker: why does your SDL bug report block the "hopelessly outdated" bug?
23:21:45 <sparr> good to know, but doesn't much alter my gameplay style
23:21:57 <sparr> although I will be sure to exploit it in a coop game at some point just to confuse people :)
23:22:22 <sparr> "how the hell does he have coverage at that industry in the middle of the lake??"
23:24:24 <Yexo> extra fun when playing with invisible station tiles :p
23:27:56 <_ln> the "hopelessly outdated" bug depends on only three other open bugs that are real bugs.
23:28:43 <_ln> three bugs = hopelessly outdated? ... or is there something essential missing?
23:28:55 <Yexo> the hopelessly outdated bug just depends on all osx specific bugs currently
23:29:29 <_ln> so i've been told, but if the count is really down to three, is it hopelessly outdated anymore?
23:29:56 <Yexo> FS#3447- sdl port unusable, FS#3194-full screen glitch
23:30:00 <Yexo> both seem pretty major problems
23:30:52 <_ln> Yexo: FS#3447 is completely un-major and irrelevant, as the OSX port doesn't use SDL at all by default.
23:31:26 <Yexo> ok, still leaves the other one
23:31:32 <Yexo> and FS#2585 can be annoying
23:32:25 <_ln> agreed, the full screen glitch is a real bug, as well as 2585.
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23:34:32 <_ln> which reminds me... i think the fullscreen and windowed mode use completely different implementations for drawing.
23:35:34 <_ln> the one for windowed being more elegant, and it could be used for fullscreen too. but was not chosen for fullscreen use due to performance reasons.
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23:37:15 <_ln> the side effect of the current fullscreen code is that OTTD gets complete control of the keyboard and mouse, and there's no way to exit the game if it e.g. halted for some reason.
23:37:40 <_ln> with the alternative way one could apple-tab easily out of the fullscreen application.
23:41:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r18661 /trunk/src/airport_movement.h: -Fix [FS#3169]: aircraft on the metropolitan airport took a long route to the closest loading pad
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23:46:39 <HackaBit> Am I allowed to talk about some doubts that I have with a line of code in CheckTrainCollision :)
23:47:07 <HackaBit> Or is there somebody willing to talk about it?
23:47:50 <Rubidium> well, seems you are willing to talk about it
23:48:12 <HackaBit> it is this line:assert(v->track == TRACK_BIT_WORMHOLE || TileVirtXY(v->x_pos, v->y_pos) == v->tile);
23:48:42 <_ln> Rubidium: do you still have me on ignore?
23:48:46 <Rubidium> that seems fine to me
23:49:03 <HackaBit> when train enters tunnel v->tille is not yet assigned
23:49:31 <HackaBit> only some fraction coordinates later
23:50:01 <HackaBit> question why does assert not trigger
23:51:15 <andythenorth> time for bed....one thing: it's been emotional ;)
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23:52:23 <Rubidium> HackaBit: probably because v->tile gets assigned in the caller of that function
23:53:29 <Rubidium> i.e. TrainController
23:56:21 <HackaBit> as far as I can see it is only assigned in _tunnel_fractcoord_2[dir]
23:58:58 <HackaBit> I was testing rubidiium and only on very rare ocasions it triggers not reproducable for me
continue to next day ⏵
