IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2009-10-21
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02:30:40 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i don't have a dead key ~ anywhere...
02:31:12 <Eddi|zuHause> but apparently a dead key ˝ twice
02:31:37 <Eddi|zuHause> not to confuse with a dead key ¨
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07:17:16 <ltsampros> is there any easy to reduct the amount of rating dropped when constructing at an a town's tiles ?
07:17:40 <ltsampros> my scenarios have really lots of trees and building just anything gets you an apalling rating
07:20:52 <ltsampros> don't like brbing :P
07:21:02 <ltsampros> (they caught me at barcelona)
07:55:21 <Rhamphoryncus> ltsampros: that's a difficulty setting, is it not?
07:55:56 <ltsampros> oh. hm. I didn't remember there was a difficulty setting
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08:13:43 <fonsinchen> I got another idea for a cargolist optimization.
08:13:59 <Noldo> did you code it already?
08:14:37 <fonsinchen> No, but it's quite easy: If we merge a packet that is not the last in the list, we pull it back and make it the last.
08:14:55 <fonsinchen> Like that subsequent equal packets should be easier to merge.
08:15:26 <fonsinchen> I'll check that later.
08:17:15 <fonsinchen> Of course that changes the order of packets, but merging with a packet that's not the last in the list isn't quite FIFO anyway, and making that packet the last one then can be seen as "fix" for this.
08:17:57 <Rubidium> well... fix is a 'big' word :)
08:18:19 <Rubidium> but yes, it makes sense to at least test it
08:19:11 <ltsampros> hm. I have a permissive attitude twoards area restructring but still
08:35:07 <Rubidium> isn't there a cheat that gives 'more' permission?
08:35:27 <Rubidium> otherwise, remove lots of trees and build them again; should give a higher rating
08:44:33 <fonsinchen> I think this can be improved: static_cast<Tinst *>(this)->RemoveFromCache(cp);
08:45:06 <fonsinchen> You can rename the base RemoveFromCache to something different and make one function in each class that calls that.
08:45:08 <ltsampros> Rubidium: nope. i didn't see one. but anyway just a constructing a city airport outside a city gives me an apalling isntantly
08:45:28 <fonsinchen> Then you can write this->RemoveFromCache(cp);
08:49:09 <fonsinchen> and the comments for the base AddToCache and RemoveFromCache are wrong. It doesn't update feeder_share
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09:23:06 <fonsinchen> actually the RemoveFromCache thing doesn't work without virtual. :(
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09:54:29 <Rubidium> fonsinchen: it really seems to work for me
09:54:36 <Rubidium> with the static cast that is
09:54:54 <fonsinchen> it works, but it looks ugly.
09:55:15 <fonsinchen> The improvement I proposed before doesn't work, though.
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10:05:35 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17837 /trunk/src/cargopacket.h: -Fix (r17812): comment erroneously mentioned feeder share
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10:57:43 <fonsinchen> I think this is a problem.
10:57:56 <fonsinchen> It doesn't initialize anything.
10:58:41 <fonsinchen> or maybe it's operator new that does it ...
11:00:15 <Rubidium> the memory is Calloced in (our) new, so everything is 0, which is good for the caches. The std::list gets automagically constructed IIRC
11:04:51 <fonsinchen> I have a problem with an inconsistent cache. Why don't we invalidate the caches after loading anymore?
11:06:21 <fonsinchen> ah, we do; only in a different place ...
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11:25:23 <Eddi|zuHause> <fonsinchen> No, but it's quite easy: If we merge a packet that is not the last in the list, we pull it back and make it the last. <-- didn't i say exactly that yesterday?
11:26:02 <fonsinchen> Maybe, then I didn't get it.
11:26:32 <Eddi|zuHause> the argument against it was that it would be way less FIFO
11:28:40 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: i called it "move to front" (where obviously "front" is the place where you start merging)
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11:30:15 <fonsinchen> If you move it to the front it is less FIFO, if you move it to the back it's about the same. But as you swap back and front in your model you might be right, though.
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11:32:06 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe i should learn to more explicitly state such duality-exchanging stuff, people tend to not follow my thought patterns :p
11:33:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Dr_Jekyll: maybe you should check the openttdcoop wiki for junctions/load balancers
11:34:55 <welshdragon> so... i had a brainwave a few seconds ago..... Fares... you set a price (per tile) for every journey
11:35:53 <welshdragon> A journey of 3 tiles could cost £3, or £30, depending on the Scrooge :P
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11:37:02 <Dr_Jekyll> Eddi|zuHause you are my hero...
11:47:31 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... why do i get av8 twice in the online content window?
11:47:49 <boekabart> that call that upselling
11:48:04 <Eddi|zuHause> it says i have av8 1.501, and it offers me av8 1.5 for download
11:48:24 <boekabart> downselling then :D
11:49:19 <Eddi|zuHause> and if i check av8 extra 1.501 for download, it automatically adds av8 1.5
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13:33:57 <Eddi|zuHause> why is canal construction so extremely expensive?
13:34:14 <boekabart> because it's a LOT of work!
13:34:17 <Eddi|zuHause> building one tile of canal costs the same as removing one tile of water
13:34:29 <boekabart> also, a LOT of work
13:34:34 <Eddi|zuHause> that is not really what i understands as balanced...
13:34:37 <boekabart> every dug a pond or so in your back yard?
13:35:39 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: you get both shown because one NewGRF 'depends' on the av8 1.5
13:36:04 <Eddi|zuHause> so $SOMEONE forgot to update the dependency?
13:37:19 <Eddi|zuHause> boekabart: but it makes no sense that digging landscape to sea level and let it flood is 100 times cheaper than building a canal tile
13:37:59 <boekabart> no, landscaping should be a lot more expensive
13:40:10 <boekabart> ANYWay most people would like that i think
13:45:28 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, building a (river boat) canal over flat land is not significantly more expensive than building a rail line...
13:47:04 <boekabart> because 90% of the cost is procedures and stuff , not work?
14:14:40 <PeterT> Please somebody who is a moderator help!
14:14:53 <PeterT> people keep posting, which just means more bots
14:16:17 <Eddi|zuHause> why would there be any moderator here?
14:16:34 <Eddi|zuHause> and what's the report button for?
14:17:05 <PeterT> they don't access that forum
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15:41:04 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17838 /trunk/src/core/pool_type.hpp: -Document: the Pool struct's template parameters
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15:56:54 <frosch123> hmm, tt-ms is definitely the right place to talk about a m4 driven nfo library
16:00:46 <frosch123> currently it is only a single vapour post
16:00:53 <frosch123> you might guess by whom :)
16:01:06 <Rubidium> no, not going to guess
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16:01:28 <frosch123> but still, choosing tt-ms is impressive
16:02:14 <Rubidium> ofcourse, tt-forums is 'bad' because $SROTU doesn't want to remove a specific user
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16:19:37 <fonsinchen> amazing ... he's posting in german and thus excluding at least half of the possible audience. I can't help but laugh about this state of affairs.
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16:19:45 <Goulp> about AI. the AI script is compiled when using it ?
16:23:31 <Eddi|zuHause> they run in a VM, kind of like a JIT-compiler
16:24:35 <Goulp> coud we imagine that some part of code can be replaced by squirel scripts ?
16:25:27 <Goulp> if provided by the server... for example
16:25:44 <Eddi|zuHause> there were some plans to make squirrel the console language, but that has not come to fruition yet
16:26:43 <Goulp> i'm not thinking to console language, but some calculation frozen in the code, like cargo distribution...
16:27:22 <Goulp> in order to permit more flex to server admins
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16:29:46 <Eddi|zuHause> no, that's really unlikely
16:30:11 <Eddi|zuHause> NFO/NewGRF is the part you should be looking at there
16:31:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Goulp: these sort of things must be synchronized between server and clients, and squirrel is not sent over the network
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16:33:34 <Goulp> what do you mean, not sent over the network ?
16:34:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not going to explain the multiplayer system to you...
16:34:58 <Goulp> server can provide script to replace some code in the client. then the client will use these script instead of default code...
16:35:33 <Noldo> patch or it didn't happen
16:35:45 <Eddi|zuHause> and exactly this "provide script" part is not going to happen
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16:36:52 <Eddi|zuHause> because that's already done with NewGRFs, and there is not going to be a second way to alter gameplay
16:37:07 <Goulp> ok, is not going to happen, but is the idea stupid ?
16:37:28 <Goulp> okay, it means with newgrf, all is possible...
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16:38:04 <Luukland> Goulpy Goulpy Goulp :)
16:40:07 <Goulp> ok, as example, may be it has already been discussed, then tell me i will search on tt-forum, talking about modifying cargo distribution, this can be made with newgrf ?
16:40:40 <asilv> depends what do you mean by cargo distribution
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16:41:08 <Goulp> to distirbute cargo agains companies with station on same industry
16:41:34 <Luukland> by mean of not changing the rating
16:41:47 <Luukland> just rearranging the calculation
16:41:50 <asilv> well that certainly can't be done with grf
16:41:55 <Goulp> is it possible to modify quantity allocated to each company
16:42:43 <Luukland> we have the patch :p
16:43:03 <Goulp> Ok, thank you Eddi, now would it be stupid to inject this calculation code from the server ?
16:46:17 <Eddi|zuHause> you can alter the NewGRF specs to support this, e.g. by a callback
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16:47:17 <frosch123> Goulp: how long does a ai need to find a path between two points? how long may a cargopacket take to decide for a hop on a vehicle?
16:48:45 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: he doesn't mean "cargo distribution" as in the "cargodist" patch, but on industry production to deliver cargo to more than the highest two nearby stations
16:49:35 <Goulp> frosch123: a cargopacket will not decide, the script will decide how much will go there and there. my question remains the same : would it be stupid that a server could inject some squirel scripts to clients in order to change frozen things. And not only cargo distribution
16:50:27 <frosch123> well, in that case i just point to the discussion on tt-forums about a half year ago
16:50:42 <frosch123> search for squirrel-grf or so
16:51:05 <frosch123> (though you might want to skip the flaming posts)
16:51:36 <Goulp> ok, if it has been discussed, i will search on tt-forum, but is it stupid or not ?
16:52:21 <frosch123> i explained in detail why squirrel is not suitable for anything that needs synchronisation, speed and is run for lots of small instances
16:52:36 <frosch123> though "in detail" is of course subjective :p
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18:49:11 <pavel1269> I have got a problem with patching a source. When I apply a patch file, with cygwin, it also change permissions on file. Then, even cygwin cant acces the file and I must delete the file and revert. Also work with those files take ages. Ideas? :-)
18:49:25 <pavel1269> I am running Win 7 prof.
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18:51:01 <pavel1269> Another question, anyone alive?
18:52:23 <pavel1269> You know, whats cygwin? :P
18:52:26 <StarLionIsaac> or, see if MinGW works on Win7, I've heard it works fine
18:53:05 <StarLionIsaac> yeah, but if MinGW doesn't give you the file permissions problem, and also compiles, isn't that an improvement still?
18:53:25 <pavel1269> I cant apply patch, on 7. file, it says it cant change permissions, and then cant create patch with those files.
18:53:29 <Rubidium> pavel1269: the attempt to get some unixy like environment on Windows
18:54:13 <Rubidium> for what it's work w.r.t. Cygwin
18:54:17 <pavel1269> i have not found any usefull utility to apply patch so i get the cygwin
18:54:19 <Rubidium> Note that the official support for Windows 95, Windows 98, and Windows Me will be discontinued with the next major version (1.7) of Cygwin, which is in beta testing right now. Note that Windows 7 and later will only be supported starting with the 1.7 version of Cygwin.
18:54:26 <Rubidium> so I hope you're running the beta stuff
18:54:50 <pavel1269> I really should read something.
18:55:22 <Forked> can you run cygwin in "xp compatability mode" ?
19:06:38 <pavel1269> I jsut found, its not win 7 related ...
19:06:47 <pavel1269> Even users of Vista have this.
19:07:25 <pavel1269> and problem is, before patch: "---------+ 1 Pavel None 14545 Oct 21 20:59 src/date.cpp" after patching "---------- 1 Pavel None 14545 Oct 21 20:59 src/date.cpp"
19:08:24 <Rubidium> I think you're getting a better response in a cygwin related IRC channel
19:08:39 <Rubidium> does OpenTTD actually still compile with cygwin?
19:08:51 <pavel1269> I compile with MSVC
19:09:11 <StarLionIsaac> isn't the core of how MinGW works based on cygwin though? that compiles fine
19:09:53 <Rubidium> StarLionIsaac: the core of OSX is *BSD, doesn't mean that if *BSD compiles OSX does (or vice versa)
19:10:39 <StarLionIsaac> point, though I'd think it at least lends weight to the theory it would compile
19:11:04 <StarLionIsaac> I've always used MinGW, never had any problems with it, except when I got it to go through Wine so I could compile a Win32
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19:22:00 <glx> mingw works well, but cygwin is not mingw, it just uses mingw
19:22:40 <StarLionIsaac> the only problem I've ever actually had with minGW is the download times on the initial setup
19:22:53 <StarLionIsaac> other than that, no trouble at all, only time it doesn't work is if I bugger up
19:24:11 <StarLionIsaac> little quick question - if you install openttd from a .deb package or however it works on non .deb linuxes, where's the binary by default?
19:24:35 <Sacro> /usr/bin, /usr/bin/games
19:24:36 <Rubidium> /usr/share/games/openttd or so
19:24:42 <Sacro> could be /usr/local/bin
19:24:48 <Sacro> Arch uses /usr/bin/openttd
19:24:56 <Rubidium> but just check the contents of the package
19:25:24 <StarLionIsaac> Any openttd, assuming for example I just installed it from the package in the Ubuntu repo, or downloaded the .deb from the homepage
19:25:44 <StarLionIsaac> I assumed that any linux distro would use the same location, I didn't realise they all insisted on doing it differently
19:31:26 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause/fonsinchen: for CargoList::Append 'move to back on merge' seems to be a bad thing to do; average 5% more time spent in Append and no gains in other areas
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19:39:03 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17839 /trunk/src/core/ (pool_func.hpp pool_type.hpp):
19:39:03 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: -Codechange: implement the concept of 'caching' pool items to pools, that is
19:39:03 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: instead of 'free' push the unused items in a linked list and use them on
19:39:03 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: 'malloc'. Also add the concept of zeroing, or actually not zeroing, on new for
19:43:03 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17840 /trunk/src/ (cargopacket.cpp cargopacket.h): -Codechange: use the new pool's concepts (caching + not zeroing). Improves average CargoPacket con/destruction time by ~20%, MoveTo/Append by 5-10% and application performance by up to 2%.
19:45:12 <Rubidium> that's enough profiling of that piece of code for this year
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19:51:42 <frosch123> be careful, there are more than 2 months left
19:53:48 <fonsinchen> I don't quite get why move-to-back doesn't perform, but whatever. Let's leave it as it is until someone comes up with a really good idea (tm).
19:56:10 <fonsinchen> Actually the pool caching could be used for all pool items if we don't fear the additional memory consumption. Or it could be made a compile time option.
19:57:02 <frosch123> no, it can't be used for vehicles nor stations
19:58:27 <Rubidium> well, moving a packet to the back means updating at least 6, maybe 7 pointers in a number of items: 'cur'->prev->next, 'cur'->next->prev, 'new'->next->prev, 'new'->prev->next, 'new'->next, 'new'->prev, 'container'->last
19:58:37 <Rubidium> that is a lot of dereferencing/updating
20:00:30 <Rubidium> so 'container'->last->prev->prev a few times is cheaper than moving it to the back
20:00:45 <Rubidium> especially if there're a few packets 'rotating' at the back
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20:45:03 <fonsinchen> About FS#3266: The set instead list is worse for trunk but about the same (even a little better) as reverse iterating for cargodist. Reverse iterating is always better than only merging last, but I came up with that idea only yesterday. And in combination with set for vehicle cargo list merging only last for stations is beneficial for cargodist. OK, I should have checked those separately. The caching thing was also discovered after the ticket was p
20:45:03 <fonsinchen> So yes, you are right, nothing of the original idea made it to trunk, but I still had a reason for posting the ticket. And I learned some things about profiling in the process.
20:46:37 <fonsinchen> And thanks a lot for all the work.
20:47:40 <fonsinchen> I have dropped the slset and cargoset branches also in cargodist. I'm using reverse iteration there, too.
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21:10:26 <andythenorth> ^^ something I said?
21:11:45 <andythenorth> Zeno's paradox of Achilles and the Tortoise applies to the industry production callback :|
21:12:53 <andythenorth> Fortunately our old friend 'many branching varaction 2 chains' rides to the rescue once again.
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21:28:29 <andythenorth> ow my brain hurts
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21:29:52 <MyCatVerbs> I have ibuprofen, Andy, I could run over. :D
21:30:32 <andythenorth> MyCatVerbs: useful, but do you have a potential solution to the problem?
21:30:45 <andythenorth> I have several, but I want to see what others come up with
21:30:53 * Prof_Frink passes andythenorth a beer
21:31:09 <andythenorth> I can't see a future that doesn't involve either:
21:31:16 <andythenorth> A: lots of advanced varaction 2
21:31:27 <andythenorth> B: stopping work on FIRS
21:31:52 <andythenorth> C: waiting for FooBar to be able to code again (but his varaction 2 advanced is no better than mine)
21:32:04 <andythenorth> A is not a fun option
21:33:42 <planetmaker> andythenorth: if you have cargo amounts A, B, C. I'd use A / (A+B+C) * max_prod_level, B / (A+B+C) * max_prod_level etc
21:34:56 <planetmaker> and andythenorth : do you template code those industries like DJN codes the trains nowadays?
21:35:07 <andythenorth> planetmaker: somewhat yes
21:35:14 <andythenorth> but maybe not as much as DJ
21:35:15 <planetmaker> then it would be kinda a one-time thing and only adding in the header vars appropriately
21:35:24 <andythenorth> that would be a win
21:35:32 <andythenorth> I was hoping we would get to that
21:35:47 <planetmaker> IMO it really pays off. He's templates and only defines in the engines' headers the properties and that's it.
21:36:03 <planetmaker> e.g. base cose, ... - all by means of nice #defines
21:36:34 <andythenorth> yep makes sense, think we discussed it when we started FIRS, but weren't sure if it would work...
21:37:19 <planetmaker> I guess it will work for industries, too
21:37:44 <planetmaker> maybe you can give me one fully coded industry, nicely commented so that I understand?
21:38:19 <planetmaker> or name one in the repo :-)
21:38:32 <andythenorth> realistically, there will be about 7 types of template, for different groups of industries
21:38:42 <andythenorth> I am pretty happy with the primary industries
21:38:53 <andythenorth> so i_iron_ore_mine for example
21:38:58 <planetmaker> yes, of course you'll need different templates
21:39:45 <andythenorth> the iron ore mine code is shared by about 6 industries
21:39:58 <planetmaker> shared or copy&pasted to ?
21:40:28 <andythenorth> the code is also the same for all the industries that use Farm Supplies, except for some cargo and text IDs
21:40:46 <andythenorth> if you can make it work, this will make my coding life much better :)
21:40:53 <andythenorth> although at least copy and paste is easy
21:40:57 <planetmaker> I don't promise anything
21:41:03 <andythenorth> unlike writing the actual code :)
21:41:06 <planetmaker> but maintainability increases
21:41:19 <planetmaker> if we really use templates instead of copy & paste
21:41:28 <andythenorth> yes, would be nice to have
21:41:42 <Rubidium> planetmaker: not m4nfo?
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21:42:02 <planetmaker> Rubidium: well... the gcc pre-processor is m4, isn't it?
21:42:24 <planetmaker> or at least understands it, iirc
21:43:30 <Rubidium> at least, gcc's preprocessor can't do loops
21:43:44 <Pikka> andy: do you want to process /everything/ every time?
21:44:01 <Pikka> and do all input cargos produce the output cargo at 1:1?
21:44:09 <MyCatVerbs> Pikka: No, the gcc pre-processor is cpp.
21:44:15 <MyCatVerbs> Er, planetmaker, not Pikka.
21:44:32 <andythenorth> Pikka: depends on the industry
21:44:41 <andythenorth> but in the simple (!) case yes
21:45:08 <Eddi|zuHause> looks like you said "/quit"
21:45:37 <Eddi|zuHause> *note to self* don't reply to messages in buffer
21:46:15 <planetmaker> Rubidium: but, depending on how far you take the gcc pre-processing, you can take it as far as MB writes there...
21:46:34 <planetmaker> though DJN's templates are really cool
21:47:55 <andythenorth> planetmaker: think your suggestion would work cargo processing
21:48:06 <Pikka> andy, I'm replying to your thread now :)
21:48:49 <planetmaker> andythenorth: well. it's simply the proportional approach for cargo usage :-)
21:49:14 <andythenorth> I forsee a future containing registers, and operators 00, 06 and they're friends
21:49:31 <andythenorth> clearly bedtime for me, I can't spell
21:50:52 <Pikka> yes, registers. :) you're going to have to use version 1 and registers if you want variable production
21:51:12 <Pikka> I'm starting to think I should start coding PBI again from scratch, all these new features :P
21:51:36 <andythenorth> How about I code FIRS and you 'borrow' it :P
21:51:55 <andythenorth> with added evil :D
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22:51:59 <Divid> es sobre el transport tycoon
22:52:24 <Divid> he fabricado un mapa de espaa
22:52:36 <Divid> y me gustaria saber subirlo a la web
22:53:46 <_LN> you want to make it available online for others to download?
22:55:14 <_LN> i guess tt-forums.net could be a suitable place.
22:56:40 <Eddi|zuHause> what happend to this old fellow i once knew...
22:56:47 <Eddi|zuHause> he always shouted "english only"
22:56:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember his name
22:58:15 <Divid> ok but at that site as it is
22:59:28 <_LN> creo que Eddi|zuHause también entende el español
23:00:04 <Eddi|zuHause> yo entiendo, but yo no speako very well
23:00:27 <Divid> I upload a map on the web
23:01:11 <Eddi|zuHause> it's quite a few years ago since i actually was in spain, and i didn't know any spanish back then
23:01:29 <Divid> I use the google translator
23:01:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Divid: you can upload scenarios on bananas.openttd.org
23:18:10 <_LN> the last time i was in spain, i didn't know hardly any spanish, and spanish wasn't the language of local people anyway.
23:20:24 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that can happen in spain ;)
23:20:57 <Eddi|zuHause> especially at the costa brava
23:21:56 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i have too many folders named "zeug" ("stuff")
23:22:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i even have a folder named "zeug" inside a folder named "zeug"
23:23:52 <_LN> organizing random files is a hard task. which should be automated.
23:25:12 <_LN> ideally there should be no need for a folder hierarchy.
23:26:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a friend, who's not even bothering with naming his folders "stuff", they are just called "new folder (83)"
23:28:02 <_LN> will it overflow at 2^31?
23:29:59 <Pikka> I don't have a stuff\stuff, but I do have a stuff\junk. :)
23:33:38 <Belugas> i'd rather have puff/fluff
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23:40:22 <Eddi|zuHause> odd... it crashed...
23:41:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i should fire the person responsible for it
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continue to next day ⏵
