IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2009-08-20
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02:14:38 <Eddi|zuHause> "Lag: 11s"... i should reall get a new connection...
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07:33:54 <Xaroth> Eddi|zuHause: irssi does not approve your connection then :P
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08:26:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: matthijs * r17226 /trunk/media/openttd.desktop.in:
08:26:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix: Remove the Encoding entry from the openttd.desktop file.
08:26:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - This entry has been deprecated since version 0.9.4 (2006) of the desktop entry specification.
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09:01:27 <TrueBrain> I hate it when there is no 720p release yet of a serie ...
09:03:11 <blathijs> TrueBrain: You're spoiled! ;-p
09:03:26 <blathijs> Perhaps there's an MPEG1 version somewhere?
09:05:18 <TrueBrain> oh well, guess have to wait :p
09:06:23 <Xaroth> more time you can spend on RE :)
09:06:37 <TrueBrain> that ... but I have to solve this stupid thing ther :p
09:06:41 <TrueBrain> or I roll out LDAP a bit more :p
09:07:15 <FauxFaux> Download it in .wav and .avi format for better quality.
09:07:33 <TrueBrain> .avi yes, I think that is so much better quality than MPEG1 ..
09:07:58 <Xaroth> TrueBrain: see of it as a challenge :)
09:08:22 * FauxFaux points out the mild satire in his statement.
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09:55:43 <TrueBrain> NOTICE: bugs.openttd.org will be under heavy maintaince: expect errors
10:01:54 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: matthijs * r17227 /trunk/src/unix.cpp: -Feature [Unix]: Only use colorized error output on terminals.
10:02:42 <TrueBrain> 2 violations of coding style :o :p :p
10:04:21 <blathijs> Yeah, it's been a while since my last commit I guess ;-p, Rubidium also pointed that out
10:04:44 <blathijs> TrueBrain: What are the exact violations? {} is mandatory?
10:05:19 <blathijs> and comments should not appear after a statement?
10:05:35 <TrueBrain> 1) /* comments on a newline, or // at the end
10:05:51 <TrueBrain> 2) if () a;\nelse b; or if () {\na;\n} else {\nb;\n}
10:06:12 <TrueBrain> that is what amuzed me :) Your style is beter in my opinion .. yet .. no OpenTTD coding style ;)
10:06:31 <blathijs> That style for if isn't documented on the wiki?
10:06:47 <blathijs> Or am I totally misreading thing?
10:07:36 <TrueBrain> "In if without an else statements, a single statement may follow on the same line. "
10:07:56 <TrueBrain> haha, okay, it is poorly written :)
10:07:58 <blathijs> In if/else, switch, and loop statements, following statements should be inside brackets on a different line. <-- And I guess this says the brackets are mandatory?
10:08:47 <TrueBrain> # Use /* */ for single line comments.
10:08:48 <TrueBrain> # Use // at the end of a command line to indicate comments.
10:08:54 <blathijs> Yeah, I believe that one :-)
10:10:03 <blathijs> is while(foo)\nbar(); allowed, or does that require brackets as well?
10:10:24 <TrueBrain> or on a single line :)
10:10:36 <Yexo> either "while (foo) bar();" or "while (foo) {\nbar();\n}"
10:10:38 <petern> brackets or single line
10:10:51 <TrueBrain> dunno if that is written down, but in general the code follow this: use \n with {}, or no \n without {}
10:13:35 <blathijs> Right, let me state that a bit more clearly on the wiki then :-)_
10:16:15 <blathijs> is if (foo) bar();\n else { \n baz(); \n } allowed?
10:16:44 <TrueBrain> hmm .. BAZ is in 2 weekends :)
10:17:27 <TrueBrain> baz.climbing.nl I believe
10:18:13 <blathijs> What is "bouldering" ?
10:20:04 <Yexo> blathijs: for if/else blocks brackets are required
10:20:11 <TrueBrain> "klimmen zonder gordel", I always say :)
10:20:27 <blathijs> Yexo: So even when you have a single statement?
10:20:51 <Yexo> blathijs: leaving brackest out is only allowed for single if/while/etc. statements without else block
10:21:14 <Yexo> and only if the statement following it is on the same line
10:21:26 <blathijs> 12:05:51 < TrueBrain> 2) if () a;\nelse b; <-- So this is not allowed?
10:21:48 <blathijs> good, since I think it's ugly :-p
10:23:15 <OwenS> blathijs: if(a)\n\tb();\nelse\n\tc(); doesn't though
10:23:40 <blathijs> OwenS: doesn't what?
10:23:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17228 /trunk/src/ (13 files in 7 dirs): -Codechange: some coding style fixes
10:24:24 <TrueBrain> "Rubidium voegt een woord bij een daad"
10:24:26 <blathijs> OwenS: Nope, but that's not allowed it seems
10:24:27 <TrueBrain> (sorry, I fail to translate)
10:24:43 <blathijs> TrueBrain: Shouldn't that be the other way around?
10:27:23 <blathijs> So, now the else b; syntax is really no longer allowed :-p
10:28:28 <blathijs> And the wiki is more clear now as well, I hope
10:29:24 <Yexo> it is, at least to me :)
10:29:27 <petern> hasn't been allowed for a long time
10:30:23 <petern> we are strict, we impose RULES, JOIN US
10:30:53 <blathijs> And one more wiki edit (It should be } else, not } \n else)
10:31:07 <petern> openttd's source is some of the nicest i've ever read
10:31:52 <blathijs> That has been different :-p
10:34:32 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: matthijs * r17229 /trunk/src/unix.cpp: -Codechange: Coding style fixes.
10:39:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r17230 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 3 dirs): -Fix (r15027): don't assert when an AI uses AI*Mode objects incorrectly but crash the AI instead
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10:46:09 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r17231 /trunk/src/ai/ai_instance.cpp: -Fix [FS#3134]: AIs that crashed during Save() weren't killed as they should
10:46:29 <TrueBrain> and the AIs get more and more isolated :) Good progress ;)
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10:58:34 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r17232 /trunk/src/ai/ai_instance.cpp: -Fix (r17223): Kill an AI when it tries to Sleep / execute a DoCommand during Save() instead of failing to save
10:59:17 <petern> this is "don't be tolerant of AIs misbehaving" i guess
11:00:28 <Yexo> yes, the main problem was that a misbehaving AI could make OpenTTD crash/assert
11:02:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r17233 /trunk/src/ai/ai_instance.cpp: -Fix (r17232): typo
11:05:29 <TrueBrain> it keeps changing the case of something I type
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11:09:25 <petern> it likes to autocorrect unless you hit exactly the right place
11:12:47 <blathijs> TrueBrain: That also happens when you remove a part of a search query for example
11:13:05 <TrueBrain> but then you can abort that with hitting ESC
11:13:13 <blathijs> then you press enter to start the search, but instead FF takes the enter as "please complete my text for me!"
11:16:27 <TrueBrain> euhm ... I made a TINY mistake ... all emailaddresses and real names are gone from FlySpray :p
11:17:17 <blathijs> Good thing you have a backup database from yesterday, I'd say. Right? :-p
11:17:29 * TrueBrain looks the other way
11:17:39 <TrueBrain> but you make a very good point .. our backup policy does currently not include the database
11:21:21 <TrueBrain> might have to do that our DB is about 500 MiB in size ..
11:22:19 <TrueBrain> but okay, LDAP migration will happen soon anyway :)
11:23:41 <blathijs> TrueBrain: Were you planning to import accounts from the various databases we have already? Or should everybody just create a new account?
11:23:55 <TrueBrain> blathijs: I wanted to create a page where you can link existing accounts
11:26:15 <blathijs> Ah, that makes sense. Since most of those apps will still need a separate user db anyway I guess?
11:26:27 <TrueBrain> at new login, the account is created immediatly
11:26:44 <TrueBrain> at existing login, the new data is retrieved from LDAP (and here I made the mistake by forgetting WHERE :p)
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11:30:31 <TrueBrain> either way, bugs.openttd.org should be back operational now
11:32:00 <Yexo> TrueBrain: the "Date" column in the event log shows my username instead of a date
11:32:47 <TrueBrain> (I always love vague reports :p)
11:33:03 <Yexo> then select some task and press Show
11:34:15 <Yexo> yes, the button with the text "Show" on it
11:34:17 <TrueBrain> oh wait, you need to be logged in to see that page :p
11:34:34 <TrueBrain> cool! Somehow .. I think .. that bug has to be ther efor a long long time :p
11:34:38 <TrueBrain> as I didn't even come near that code :)
11:34:56 <Yexo> not for "a long time", or I'd have spotted it earlier
11:35:03 <Yexo> I'm pretty sure it worked a few days ago
11:45:16 <TrueBrain> ["dateformat_extended"]=>
11:45:17 <TrueBrain> string(9) "TrueBrain"
11:46:02 <TrueBrain> that happened for a handful of users Yexo
11:46:51 <Yexo> clearing that field fixed it :)
11:46:57 <TrueBrain> it seems the DB crashed over it or something
11:47:01 <TrueBrain> as some fields are complete garbage
12:06:18 <TrueBrain> I recovered a portion of the emails for FS (about 50%)
12:06:24 <TrueBrain> only newer accounts :p
12:18:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17234 /branches/0.7/ (7 files in 4 dirs): (log message trimmed)
12:18:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [0.7] -Backport from trunk:
12:18:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Remove the (deprecated since 2006) Encoding entry from the openttd.desktop file (r17226)
12:18:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: With time tables vehicles would stay in the 'loading' state after they have finished loading [FS#3129, FS#3130] (r17222)
12:18:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not ignore white space changes (e.g. alignment fixes) in the exporter (r17220)
12:19:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Accept monthly production values in the scenario editor [FS#2406] (r17198)
12:19:02 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Change: [Unix] Only use colorized error output on interactive terminals (r17227)
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12:22:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17235 /branches/0.7/src/ (12 files in 2 dirs):
12:22:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [0.7] -Backport from trunk:
12:22:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NoAI] IsRoadTypeAvailable(GetCurrentRoadType()) was not a precondition for several AIRoad::* functions (r17203)
12:22:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NoAI] Do not say you are building a depot when you are actually building a station (API docs typo) (r17201)
12:22:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Change: [NoAI] When the API requests a string as parameter allow every squirrel type and convert to a string [FS#3101] (r17221)
12:54:11 <Eddi|zuHause> you know what? i love "Date Format" fields with no documentation about the syntax elements...
12:54:28 <TrueBrain> then again, you are not normal :p
12:54:33 <petern> "we assume you know php format dates"
12:57:47 <Eddi|zuHause> well, at least that would give something to google for...
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13:25:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17236 /branches/0.7/src/ (13 files in 5 dirs):
13:25:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [0.7] -Backport from trunk:
13:25:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NoAI] AIs that crashed during Save() were not killed as they should [FS#3134] (r17231)
13:25:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NoAI] Do not assert when an AI uses AI*Mode objects incorrectly but crash the AI instead (r17230)
13:25:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Change: [NoAI] Crash an AI when it uses a DoCommand / Sleep instead of just printing an error message in the AI Debug Window [FS#2980] (r17223)
13:37:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r17237 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_changelog.hpp: -Update: AI changelog
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13:45:17 <TrueBrain> howdie pavel1269 :)
13:45:31 <pavel1269> again on pool ... what a great weather :-)
13:45:48 <TrueBrain> today we wanted to go to the beach
13:46:02 <TrueBrain> then we notice our local weather institute issued a wind warning
13:46:05 <TrueBrain> we are glad we didn't go :p
13:55:31 <pavel1269> why so, big waves? :-)
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14:18:31 <_ln> if we have a 4-digit code for opening a door, how many tries does it take to find the code by brute force?
14:21:05 <TrueBrain> so assuming you do a lineair brute force, it would take the pincode amount of tries
14:21:10 <TrueBrain> I really hope it is 9999
14:21:42 <Yexo> why 9999? I'd expect 10000
14:21:47 <_ln> right, but usually the keypads look at the last four buttons you pressed, which reduces the number a lot.
14:22:12 <TrueBrain> Yexo: I said I hope the pin was 9999
14:22:19 <TrueBrain> which means 10000 attempts are required
14:22:20 <_ln> if you press 12345, you already covered 1234 and 2345.
14:22:59 <TrueBrain> randomly insert any amount of number, if possible let a monkey do it
14:30:54 <Eddi|zuHause> _ln: some keypads i know require you to press a "start" and "accept" button
14:32:11 <_ln> i haven't seen such, but yeah why not.
14:32:37 <Eddi|zuHause> but seriously... why brute force it, when you can just watch someone type it in?
14:32:41 <TrueBrain> alarms mostly have that :) Or a 'A' or what ever
14:32:52 <TrueBrain> or browse the internet to find the mastercode? :p
14:35:28 <_ln> i was just pondering how many key presses long is the optimal sequence.
14:36:11 <Eddi|zuHause> have any special object in mind? :p
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14:49:40 <_ln> so on average about 5000 key presses should be enough...
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14:54:29 <petern> i think it might lock you out before that
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14:55:54 <_ln> if we are talking about a keypad at the main door of a building for example, i've never heard of those locking out anyone. might be different with something more sophisticated such as cars.
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15:07:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i've never seen a keypad on a car
15:09:00 <_ln> me neither but i haven't been to america
15:13:48 <Audigex> i have, although it was modified
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15:37:52 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: matthijs * r17238 /trunk/src/gfxinit.cpp:
15:37:52 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Codechange: Clean up CheckExternalFiles a bit and improve the error message it
15:37:52 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: outputs. This makes the function return faster in the common case when all
15:37:52 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: files are in order, by not doing another set of MD5 checks.
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15:59:02 <Eddi|zuHause> didn't they want to shut down geocities?
15:59:47 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r17239 /trunk/src/road_cmd.cpp:
15:59:47 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Change [FS#2802]: allow overbuilding the front tile of a roadstation / roaddepot with road
15:59:47 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: to be consistent with overbuilding the front tile of tunnels/bridges and also to make it easier for AIs to
15:59:47 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: connect roadstations and roaddepots to the road in front of it
16:02:12 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: matthijs * r17240 /branches/0.7/src/ (gfxinit.cpp openttd.cpp):
16:02:12 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [0.7] -Backport from trunk:
16:02:12 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Change: Improve error output on missing or corrupt files (r17238).
16:04:43 <Eddi|zuHause> "Service Temporarily Unavailable"
16:05:03 <_ln> anyway, the topic is "Variations and Inconsistencies with the Temporal Display Unit in the Back to the Future Trilogy"
16:06:06 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a movie, damnit
16:07:39 <Eddi|zuHause> fun fact: with the hydro plant that blew up in russia, they could have powered five time machines :p
16:11:01 <_ln> "Commentary: Take a look at how the horizontal part of the "T" intersects the vertical part of the "T" in the two images. In Figure 3A, the vertical-"T" intersects the horizontal-"T" with a little arrowhead overlapping the horizontal-"T". In Figure 3B, there is no arrowhead overlap."
16:12:14 *** FooBar_ is now known as FooBar
16:12:41 <Eddi|zuHause> "Banking Trojans are found infected with a virus"
16:13:06 <Eddi|zuHause> "the Delphi Virus infects the IDE, and automatically spreads into every compiled program"
16:14:22 <Eddi|zuHause> "our prophecy from december announced this for the 30th of may, we apologize for the wrong date"
16:26:21 <planetmaker> indeed a very good one. I had quite a laugh when I read that ^^
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17:02:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17241 /trunk/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Change: make a distinction between missing and corrupted data files. If (at least) one data file is missing do not consider the set to be useable. Do also no autodetect sets with missing files.
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17:39:17 <_ln> Eddi|zuHause: try that geocities link again now
17:39:52 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, seems to work now
17:40:53 <_ln> makes me wonder how much time people have
17:44:19 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... it didn't load all images...
17:45:29 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r17242 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt german.txt simplified_chinese.txt swedish.txt):
17:45:29 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:29 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 4 changes by Gavin
17:45:29 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: czech - 10 changes by joeprusa
17:45:29 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by Roujin
17:45:30 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: swedish - 7 changes by hgj
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19:54:16 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17243 /trunk/src/3rdparty/minilzo/ (lzoconf.h minilzo.c minilzo.h): -Fix (r17216): undo 'damage' by svn:keywords
19:54:50 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17244 /trunk/src/lang/ (52 files in 2 dirs): -Change: add $Id$ to the language files too
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20:01:31 <valhallasw> it makes life so much more fun
20:02:18 <valhallasw> but with non-ascii characters.
20:02:41 <_ln> this is an UTF-8 please channel, so no problem.
20:02:56 <Xaroth> my client doesn't do utf8
20:03:04 <_ln> sorry, "a UTF-8 ... channel"
20:03:12 <Terkhen> that made me remember to turn on UTF-8
20:05:04 * frosch123 still did not coded a image->utf-8 converter using characters 0x2800 - 0x28FF
20:05:12 <Terkhen> I still see only gibberish, though
20:06:44 <valhallasw> Terkhen: 22:03 < TordeQ> allutf8; jp text: あいうえお賢い; russian text: АБВГҐД; chinese text: 蘭葉春葳蕤， 桂華秋皎潔; korean text: 훈민정음; various eu accents: éèàùêâîôûçëïüÿčšžäöáíñ
20:07:27 <frosch123> Ґ <- what's that, can't remember such a letter
20:07:52 <ddfreyne> ∀ characters ∃ someone who knows what they are
20:07:53 <_ln> it's not in russian alphabet
20:07:58 <Terkhen> mmm... no, it's not working
20:08:57 <petern> is cyrillic capital letter ghe with upturn
20:09:01 <OwenS> ∀ <- Turn A - Mathematical symbol meaning "sum of all constituent parts"?
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20:09:49 <_ln> petern: cyrillic sure, russian not
20:09:58 <ddfreyne> OwenS: means for-all
20:10:10 <ddfreyne> it's more like a logical symbol than a mathematical symbol
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20:10:51 <ddfreyne> and the inverse E means there-exists
20:11:26 <_ln> and the inverse 6 means 9
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20:13:05 <z-MaTRiX> who knows inverz `z' ?
20:14:43 <petern> ♀ - female ♂ - male ⚥⚦⚧ - 800m runners ⚨ - iron sulphate
20:22:35 <Terkhen> I just see a lot of spaces and a "?"
20:23:13 <valhallasw> I see a lot of boxes, but that's because I'm missing the right font
20:23:59 <petern> maybe, they were in the U+1D400 range which technically doesn't exist
20:24:29 <OwenS> I was wondering what it could be... difficult for me to find something thats not LGC, Han or Kana...
20:24:37 <petern> oh, it does, i misread
20:25:15 <petern> are you having a moment?
20:25:27 <OwenS> So whats in that range?
20:26:17 <petern> 1D400 to 1D7FF - Mathematical Alphanumeric Symbols
20:26:36 <petern> 1D400 is "mathematical bold capital A"
20:27:45 <valhallasw> _ln: and 8 inversed is 8. And 8 rotated is infinity!
20:28:19 <OwenS> OK so I need a math font :P
20:29:38 <valhallasw> _ln: even arial unicode doesnt understand that
20:33:00 <_ln> 𝕾𝖔... 𝕴𝖘 𝖙𝖍𝖎𝖘 𝖆 𝖍𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖔𝖗𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖑𝖑𝖞 𝖙𝖆𝖎𝖓𝖙𝖊𝖉 𝖋𝖔𝖓𝖙?
20:37:41 <glx> indeed arial unicode doesn't know what to show
20:39:04 <_ln> i have DejaVu Sans Mono, i suppose.
20:42:11 <_ln> Was mentioned #elsewhere that those mathematical things do not fit in UTF-16.
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20:43:14 <TinoDidriksen> All the math symbols showed fine even in mIRC, but your last line did not.
20:48:18 <Nickman87> I'm looking for some info about the current widget system? Could someone point me to a good place to look? :)
20:48:32 <Nickman87> trying to upgrade a patch for the sign list filter
20:51:30 <Nickman87> Tried looking at some example widgets, but can't distinguish the neccesairy parts to create/show/... a widget
21:00:56 <petern> but UTF-16 is not UCS-2
21:02:15 <_ln> Nonetheless there's some problem with screen and those characters.
21:02:54 <OwenS> I personaly prefer testing Unicode conformance with ひらがな :p
21:03:14 <petern> your test fails, because it works.
21:03:21 <petern> whereas what _ln and i wrote doesn't
21:03:41 <OwenS> I should probably find some unusual Kanji which are in an astral plane :p
21:04:01 <daChaac> if you want challenge try something arabic or hebrew that has weird writing style... Japanese is easy :)
21:04:37 <OwenS> Theres a cranefly thats been on my cieling all day
21:04:41 <OwenS> Notable because it hasn't moved.
21:08:29 <glx> تنتنمبيتلنبتلنيتبلنبيتلنيتبلني
21:08:50 <OwenS> Konversation adapted very well to that O_o
21:08:59 <OwenS> And no fair I don't have an Arabic IME installed! :P
21:09:08 <petern> now try something over U+FFFF
21:09:51 <OwenS> AKA How you type languages for which keyboards are infeasible
21:10:06 <OwenS> Then again does Arabic need one or a keyboard layout? :p
21:13:02 <OwenS> So keyboard layout. A Japanese keyboard is normal QWERTY [or DVORAK] with mode selector keys (To switch between Latin/Kanji Composition/Hiragana/Katakana)
21:13:05 <petern> IME is windows terminology
21:13:25 <petern> or maybe it's not these days
21:13:29 <OwenS> X11 calls it an "Input Method". IM however is ambiguous :p
21:14:46 <petern> ẃéĺĺ í júśt śtíćḱ tó ḿý ćóḿṕóśé-ĺíḱé ḱéýś
21:15:31 <_ln> ﷽, everyone's favourite ARABIC LIGATURE BISMILLAH AR-RAHMAN AR-RAHEEM
21:16:22 <_ln> why would they call a box a BISMILLAH AR-RAHMAN AR-RAHEEM?
21:17:20 <OwenS> The :-P was the "i'm joking" part :p
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21:23:43 <Eddi|zuHause> <petern> but UTF-16 is not UCS-2 <- most programs i have seen treat them as equivalent
21:24:14 <petern> Eddi|zuHause, they're wrong
21:24:37 *** green-devil has left #openttd
21:26:44 <Nite_Owl> planetmaker: I posted an abbreviated (yet updated) NARS v2.0 read me on the forums
21:27:15 <Nite_Owl> if Pikkabird wants to use it is up to him
21:30:18 <Eddi|zuHause> petern: or they can't be arsed to implement the differences
21:31:02 <Eddi|zuHause> (as far as i understand, UTF-16 also has "multi-word" characters, but UCS-2 does not)
21:32:42 <Eddi|zuHause> <_ln> '͜' <-- is it bad when i have to turn my head to read that as a smiley? :p
21:40:28 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
21:40:52 <Eddi|zuHause> *mental note* "ibase=16;obase=10;..." does not do what you might want to do
21:46:04 <petern> it's only doing what you tell it
21:55:19 <TinoDidriksen> UTF-16 has surrogate pairs, which leads to not every glyph being 2 byte, but it's so rare to hit one. But even in UTF-32 you have combining marks...so you can never say that a glyph is a single code point, in any Unicode format.
21:57:26 <Eddi|zuHause> you are speaking in riddles
21:59:34 <petern> of course, openttd doesn't (or didn't, when i wrote the utf8 support) support combining marks
22:00:12 <Eddi|zuHause> well, that i did not mean...
22:00:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean that the unicode space does not fit into 16 bit
22:00:43 *** Audigex has joined #openttd
22:01:41 <Eddi|zuHause> but i only have the dangerous kind of half knowledge
22:06:08 <TinoDidriksen> That with UTF-16 you're mostly dealing in single elements, since so few characters are beyond that plane. The odds of needing surrogate pairs is low and thus easy to optimize around, but still something you have to prepare a worst case for...which you don't have to worry about in UTF-8 or UTF-32.
22:06:14 *** ^Spike^ is now known as ^spike^
22:07:23 <TrueBrain> bah, I hate people who rename every time they come online/offline ..
22:07:48 <Eddi|zuHause> there is a solution for that.
22:07:54 <TinoDidriksen> They forget that IRC has /away
22:07:55 <Eddi|zuHause> do i have to spell it out for you? :p
22:08:10 <TrueBrain> ^spike^: I think that goes for you ...
22:08:16 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: yes please
22:08:27 <Eddi|zuHause> it starts with a b
22:08:33 <Eddi|zuHause> and ends with an
22:08:47 <TrueBrain> banana .. but that ends with na
22:09:02 <TrueBrain> but that is just silly
22:09:13 <Eddi|zuHause> depending on the ircd, there's also a chanmode "forbid people to change nicknames"
22:09:47 <TrueBrain> +m and +v people who join :p
22:10:05 <Eddi|zuHause> TinoDidriksen: apparently, ^spike^ did set /away, too
22:10:30 <OwenS> Is everyone saying ^spike^ as often as possible to annoy him? :p
22:10:43 <TrueBrain> ^spike^: no, we are not
22:10:46 <TrueBrain> oh, sorry, that was for OwenS
22:11:04 <petern> why would we talk to ^spike^?
22:11:09 <petern> we have no idea who ^spike^ is
22:11:17 <TrueBrain> who can trace what happened to Leverage S02E06 in 720p?
22:12:03 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
22:12:37 *** tux_mark_5 has joined #openttd
22:12:39 <OwenS> Grr. I was looking for a PCM -> DSD conversion algorithm, not a bunch of audiophools discussing the pros and cons of the two formats
22:13:33 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: the first place i'd go asking would be efnet ;)
22:13:56 <OwenS> Thinking though, it's easy... just emulate a PWM engine operating at 2Mhz
22:14:35 <OwenS> No. 2.822Mhz, so 3 would have been better, meh
22:14:35 <TrueBrain> and it seems that tpb doesn't want to load :(
22:14:44 <petern> 2.822 would be better ;)
22:15:08 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: it's not in my RSSFeed, so apparently it didn't make it anywhere public
22:15:17 * OwenS shrugs as to why not 48*64...
22:15:27 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: well, all my sources turn up dry too .. I wonder what happened
22:15:27 <Eddi|zuHause> so TPB isn't a likely place to find it
22:15:28 <petern> because CD audio is 44.1...
22:15:54 <OwenS> And DVD audio (And digital audio tape for those interested...) is 48kHz
22:16:45 <Eddi|zuHause> the 44.1kHz value is way older than digital recording
22:17:01 <OwenS> (DAT at 48kHz is handy though because I have some DVDs which had their sound originally mastered on DAT...)
22:18:05 <Eddi|zuHause> well, probably not, as a sampling frequency doesn't make much sense with analogue recording ;)
22:18:23 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: it is just incredibly high :p
22:18:34 <OwenS> TrueBrain: Just read the synopsis of Leverage. You may be interested in the TV series Hustle, as it has a somewhat similar premise.
22:18:56 <OwenS> All of it that exists I assume anyway
22:19:01 <petern> oh, it's a telly series
22:19:03 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, you find 44.100, 22.050 and 11.025 Hz values all over the place
22:19:04 <TrueBrain> it will be really hard to tell me about a new serie ;) Hehe :) I hav eno life :) Tnx anyway ;)
22:19:41 <OwenS> TrueBrain: As one who doesn't watch much TV... doubly difficult :p
22:19:46 <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: Leverage is not rarely compared with the A-Team
22:20:00 <TrueBrain> OwenS: I don't watch TV :p
22:20:34 <petern> The 44.1 stuff came from multiplying the number of video scanlines with
22:20:34 <petern> any integer that meets a reasonable bandwidth/Nyquist above 20kHz.
22:20:34 <petern> Additionally, it had to fit both PAL and NTSC number of scanlines IIRC
22:20:34 <petern> (dunno how many they have). Another practical thing was that 44100 can
22:20:34 <petern> be divided by many numbers without fractional part.
22:21:09 <OwenS> Without the overscan NTSC and PAL are 480 and 576 lines respectively
22:21:13 <TrueBrain> many being more than 2, than yes
22:21:16 <petern> such as "why did it have to fit both PAL and NTSC number of scanlines" ...
22:22:11 <OwenS> "This sample rate is adapted from that attained when recording digital audio on PAL videotape with a PCM adaptor, an earlier way of storing digital audio."
22:22:46 <OwenS> Thats cool in a crazy way... recording PCM audio in the video portion of a VHS tape
22:23:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that was really inventive... how do you think they got sound on other films?
22:24:06 <petern> heh 2*2*3*3*5*5*7*7 = 44100
22:24:11 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: I have a thing for any magnetic medium. I still have an ATAPI Zip drive :p
22:24:35 <OwenS> petern: That sounds like the inverse of a valve frequency divider equation...
22:24:36 <TrueBrain> what was that company called who sold zip drives
22:24:55 <TrueBrain> I still have that in a box somewhere on my left :p
22:25:03 <TrueBrain> WOW! YOU CAN STORE SO MUCH DATA! BACKUP BACKUP BACKUP!
22:25:07 <petern> i binned a load the other week
22:25:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i also have a 100MB zip drive
22:25:15 <TrueBrain> a few months later there was a cdburner for a price you could laugh at
22:25:22 <Eddi|zuHause> and i actually did something useful with it, once
22:25:56 <OwenS> Theres still something magic about magnetic media...
22:26:15 <Eddi|zuHause> what killed the zip drive was lack of compatibility with 1.44MB disks
22:26:26 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: That didn't save LS120
22:26:44 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: what killed it were the poor drivers
22:26:56 <TrueBrain> you could take it with you, but installing it was a bitch!
22:27:25 <OwenS> The ATAPI version trades the "can't take it with you" for "no drivers to install" :p
22:27:25 <Eddi|zuHause> mine is a USB device, so that never was a problem for me...
22:27:33 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: that was EXACTLY the problem for me :p
22:27:46 <TrueBrain> we had both versions, as we thought it would be useful ...
22:27:47 <petern> hmm, i've never actually seen a DAT
22:27:47 <OwenS> I'd have it plugged in if I had a spare ATA connector...
22:28:01 <petern> i suppose they're rare now too
22:28:15 <OwenS> petern: They were mostly used for audio recording for movie production - particularly animation
22:28:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i only know the term "DAT" from Zak McKracken
22:28:23 <OwenS> Today they're pretty much only in use as archives
22:28:40 <OwenS> (I.E. the devices are just arround for extracting the audio from old masters :P )
22:29:08 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: maybe i bought mine when the drivers were already improved
22:29:18 <petern> i didn't know sony had a walkman dat machine, for example...
22:29:39 <OwenS> Sony were a heavy promotor
22:30:06 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i guess on every successful format there's half a dozen failed ones
22:30:24 <TrueBrain> I have to say: I did expect back then zipdrives to become the next big thing
22:31:22 <Eddi|zuHause> well, they are kinda useless now that usb sticks are around...
22:31:45 <Eddi|zuHause> only i don't have a USB stick
22:31:49 <TrueBrain> --is that Grouchy with his fresh troops is so late in arriving. Still,
22:31:50 <TrueBrain> the Prussians are late too, and the British cannot hold the place for
22:31:52 <TrueBrain> ever. II At three o'clock the fog lifts--the veil that has wrapped so
22:31:53 <petern> they magically obsoleted everything ever
22:31:53 <TrueBrain> many sounds, such awful and wonderful visions, in a kind of mystery, is
22:31:55 <TrueBrain> lifted now, and it reveals . . . what? Hougoumont invested--Brave Baring
22:31:59 <TrueBrain> (just received via @openttd.org)
22:32:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't understand a single word of that
22:32:40 <TrueBrain> glad I am not the only one
22:32:45 <TrueBrain> damn, 480p looks UGLY :(
22:32:51 <OwenS> TrueBrain: If you're not using any RBLs, use pbl.spamhaus.net; the IPs on that list are not supposed to be sending mail directly anyway
22:33:07 <petern> hmm, when was DAT invented? there's a sony model on ebay with wooden side panels... a sure sign of being old ;)
22:33:10 <TrueBrain> OwenS: this email passed all blacklists
22:33:10 <Eddi|zuHause> yes... leverage is one of the worst of them...
22:33:27 <TrueBrain> OwenS: blacklists takes time
22:33:35 <Eddi|zuHause> worse are only "DSR" recordings
22:33:42 <TrueBrain> I wish everyone would install SPF :(
22:33:53 <OwenS> Hashcash would be better :p
22:34:04 <petern> oh, that is 1987 vintage
22:34:18 <TrueBrain> oeh, the new signup page is coming along just fine :)
22:35:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i (almost) never get spam
22:35:14 <TrueBrain> it is one of the few
22:35:33 <Eddi|zuHause> unfortunately, recently i also did not get some of the real mail
22:35:38 <TrueBrain> 99.78% we are currently at :p (spam that is removed)
22:35:55 <TrueBrain> 99.995% real mail let-throughs :)
22:36:03 <TrueBrain> I am so proud on my new filter :)
22:36:20 <petern> OwenS, so anyway, have you written your PCM -> DSD converter yet?
22:37:07 <OwenS> petern: No; but the algorithm is just an accumulator where the PCM sample is added at the DSD rate and the carry is the DSD output
22:38:48 <OwenS> So one can do an add of the correct bit width then rotate the bit from the carry into a collection register
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22:42:28 <OwenS> Really it's the kind of algorithm you would implement in assembler for the optimization bonus :p
22:43:46 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i know of one person whose mail consistently does not get through
22:44:10 <TrueBrain> that was the old filter :p I switched openttd.org th eother day .. I believe they do come through now :p
22:45:04 <Audigex> anyone online who could run me up a "quick" newgrf?
22:45:15 <Audigex> quick as in, very simple as GRFs go
22:46:10 <R0b0t1> I'd newgrf flying saucers if I had any skills.
22:46:43 <Audigex> i just need to get a single train made into a grf so i can see what it looks like in game
22:47:06 <Audigex> i'm sure there's something not right, but i can't mock it up accurately enough to compare it to other objects
22:47:43 * TrueBrain is happy to tell you he knows NOTHING about grfs :p
22:48:11 <OwenS> TrueBrain: Even from the C side of things? :p
22:48:20 <TrueBrain> never touched newgrf* files
22:48:32 <TrueBrain> there is a limit to what I want to know :)
22:49:18 <OwenS> And could the EMA (Education Maintaiannce Allowance) people have chosen a more dodgy postal provider? EVERY time they send me a letter it fails to arrive and I have to phone them up and ask for it to be resent!
22:49:40 <Audigex> owens - are you starting college now?
22:49:59 <Audigex> truebrain - coding i like, hex i consider sadistic
22:50:15 <Audigex> OwenS: and you haven't realised the full incompetence of the EMA organisation?
22:50:26 <Audigex> they're complete and utter dunces
22:50:29 <OwenS> Audigex: I'm fully aware of it.
22:50:45 <OwenS> I'm also aware that they, a government org, have a non toll free number.
22:50:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Audigex: the forum is full of tools that can do that
22:51:05 <Audigex> eddi, any search hints?
22:51:13 <Audigex> newgrf maker is quite a broad term, for example
22:51:37 <Eddi|zuHause> could try grfmaker
22:51:39 <OwenS> Audigex: And a freaking long "You can get lots of information online" message whenever you call them. That I'd swear is just a way to keep you on the line for long enough to extract 1p more from you in BT fees
22:52:11 <Audigex> no freephone number/local rate on saynoto0870?
22:52:18 <Audigex> thanks eddi, i'll give it ag o
22:53:37 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: Hehe, german and it's upside down quote marks
22:54:04 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i really struggle on those...
22:54:24 <Eddi|zuHause> (the misplaced apostrophes, i mean)
22:54:42 <OwenS> I personaly think the Japanese have the 「right idea」
22:54:47 <Audigex> fecking hell, i was expecting this to be simple
22:54:55 <Audigex> owens - it has 0845s on too
22:55:12 <Audigex> eddi, anything I can just give it a png of the sprites and it'll make a "generic" train
22:55:15 <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: basically it's a term for "something generic"
22:55:36 <Audigex> all i want is to give it a png, and it produce a train where i can use the front, back and middle carriages
22:55:46 <Audigex> and put a few middle carriages in between the end cars
22:56:04 <OwenS> First problem: GRF tools take PCXs...
22:56:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Audigex: you can try the NDL compiler, but it's not very complete...
22:56:47 <OwenS> But NewGRF 101: NewGRF is a turing tarpit
22:56:52 <Eddi|zuHause> as in: you can't do much beyond replacing train graphics
22:57:18 <OwenS> Though I don't know whether I really need to qualify that with "turing"
22:59:34 <Audigex> okay, i've got two blocks set up in grfmaker
22:59:42 <Audigex> but i've no idea what to do with the png?
23:00:02 <OwenS> Convert it to a PCX of the correct pallette
23:02:25 <Audigex> any form of advice on how to do that? :)
23:02:38 <Audigex> again, searching for pcx comes up with nothing useful
23:04:35 <Nite_Owl> do you have a paint/pixel program
23:04:50 <Audigex> nite_owl - I use paint, the sprites are already drawn :)
23:05:09 *** reldred2 has joined #openttd
23:05:11 <Nite_Owl> can paint convert to pcx
23:05:18 <Eddi|zuHause> screw paint... it can't do pcx... get a real program
23:05:36 <Audigex> it doesnt have it in "save as" so presumably not
23:05:45 <Audigex> agh, so many programs
23:06:07 <Audigex> i just want to draw the bloody thing, but i'm sure the front is wrong :(
23:06:35 <Eddi|zuHause> it's important that it can import the palette of openttd
23:06:41 <Nite_Owl> I have a very old version of Paint Shop Pro so I only really know that program well
23:07:02 <Audigex> i hate this program though
23:07:09 <Audigex> with it's fecking different windows
23:07:33 <Tefad> i thought that's how everyone did GUIs
23:07:39 <Eddi|zuHause> you can get the palette by loading a screenshot, or there are preconfigured gimp palettes in the forum
23:08:05 <Audigex> tefad, most use smaller windows - gimp always annoyed me because they're not within one main window
23:08:10 <Audigex> or at least, werent when i last used it
23:08:14 <Eddi|zuHause> dangit, i guess dexter isn't done today...
23:08:17 <Tefad> oh you're talking about useless MDI stuff
23:08:21 <Nite_Owl> check the OTTD Graphics forum for a recent post from Zeypher for th epallet
23:08:29 <Audigex> the point being, it's messy on my screen
23:08:39 <Tefad> so use a window manager that supports multiple workspaces
23:08:42 <Tefad> put gimp on one workspace
23:08:59 <Audigex> or i could not use window managers :)
23:09:09 <Tefad> then you can't move your windows around.. you win
23:09:26 <Audigex> im a single-desktop windows 7 user
23:09:34 <OwenS> Then you have a window manager
23:09:35 <Tefad> ohhhhh hahaha that explains it
23:09:41 <Audigex> owens - not how he means it
23:09:43 <OwenS> A crappy one, but still a window manager
23:09:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Audigex: there are workspace-emulating programs for windows as well
23:09:59 <Tefad> yeah, windows default shell/wm is shite
23:10:01 <Audigex> there are, but my hard drive is gunked up enough already
23:10:11 <Audigex> not windows fault, before you start bashing ;)
23:10:15 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: I thought in 7 MS caught up with 20(?) years of Unix multiple desktops?
23:10:18 <Audigex> i just have a lot of crap
23:10:26 <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: i have no idea
23:10:29 <Audigex> and it's a feature i wish windows had
23:10:38 <Audigex> but linux just doesn't do everything i want
23:10:40 <Tefad> i've had a beef with windows since i started getting serious with my computing
23:10:49 <Tefad> anyway,, back to openttd!
23:11:16 <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: afair, power tools semi-officially did that under windows-xp
23:11:27 <TrueBrain> R0b0t1: don't be annoying
23:11:31 <Tefad> tip, if you're going to use a unix-based app and doesn't like how it interfaces in your GUI thing, try to find GUI enhancements that make the experience more bearable.
23:11:57 <Audigex> tefad, if i was going to be using it permanently, i would
23:11:59 <Tefad> taekwindow, katmouse, dragking are all fun windows utilities
23:12:04 <Audigex> for the sake of making one GRF, i'll pass
23:12:35 <Tefad> bblean is an ok wm replacement
23:12:39 <Audigex> i do think it's a good idea
23:12:46 <Audigex> but i dont normally need it
23:12:57 <Audigex> and im not installing it just to use one program, once
23:13:09 <OwenS> I find GTK unbearable on Windows machines TBH anyway :p
23:13:10 <Audigex> right, now to find this palate
23:13:39 <Tefad> OwenS: i find qt unbearable on any OS.. ; )
23:14:44 <OwenS> Tefad: Document why and perhaps I can add some features to make it less so for you and push them to Nokia to see if they accept them ;-)
23:14:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i find it funny that i have KDE3 apps in a bright colour scheme and KDE4 apps in a dark colour scheme
23:14:54 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: I have the same ATM. Annoying.
23:15:09 <Tefad> OwenS: the themes are too flashy.
23:15:11 <Audigex> okay, opened a screenshot in GIMP
23:15:13 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it's cool...
23:15:20 <Audigex> how doo i get the palate off it?
23:15:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i get reminded to which programs still need switching ;)
23:15:41 <OwenS> Tefad: I don't describe the CDE, Motif and Windows themes as flashy :p
23:16:01 <Tefad> i just want flat colors not bitmaps
23:16:15 <Tefad> does GTK even have 'themes' ?
23:16:28 <Tefad> more than just color settings?
23:16:29 <OwenS> Or have you been sitting under a rock for a decade?
23:16:51 <Tefad> dunno, i don't use many guis aside from firefox and the gimp
23:17:08 <Audigex> Audigex> how doo i get the palate off it?
23:17:10 <Audigex> [00:15] <Audigex> *do
23:17:11 <Eddi|zuHause> is "sit under rock" equivalent to "use debian stable"?
23:17:23 <Tefad> i got pissed at firefox when they added gradients to the tabs on windows
23:17:31 <OwenS> Tefad: But if you prefer the GTK theme... Set your Qt theme to "GTK+". Simples.
23:17:39 <OwenS> (And I mean the GTK themse you're using)
23:17:45 <OwenS> Tefad: OK, wtf on that?
23:17:48 <Tefad> if i'm going to do that, i'd rather be using all GTK apps
23:18:04 <Tefad> to load qt to emulate GTK seems like a waste to me
23:18:44 <Tefad> no idea what gtk theme i'm using, aside from the color description i made up a few years back
23:19:10 <OwenS> Qt's Cleanlooks style is a clone of the Gnome standard Clearlooks style; and if you want more minimalist, Windows, CDE and Motif provide that. In that order.
23:21:43 <Audigex> okay, one PCX file created - presumably with the correct palate but probably not
23:22:32 <Audigex> how do i import it? can't find anything related in the menu :(
23:24:44 *** PeterT was kicked by DorpsGek (Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.)
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23:36:18 <Audigex> fuck it, i'm getting errors off grfmaker and it's not loading up it's toolbars
23:38:13 <Eddi|zuHause> you'd be long done by now if you'd just followed the newgrf tutorial
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23:39:45 <Audigex> i went onto the grfcreator site, followed the user guide until it went wrong, couldn't find anything about the error in it, the grfcreator wiki page or the thread
23:48:37 <Audigex> grfwizard wants ttdpatch?
23:48:56 <Audigex> why isn't there a simple way to do this?
23:49:12 <Audigex> open a png file with the correct colours, enter a handful of stats and it makes a basic train
23:49:26 <Audigex> why all these complex programs which are so concerned with action0 etc
23:50:16 <Eddi|zuHause> action0 is really the most simple of all...
23:51:35 <Audigex> the point being, there's no "quickfire" way for artists to bung out a quick sprite to test it visually
23:52:23 <Audigex> i've tried grfwizard, grfmaker and wingrf
23:52:32 <Audigex> and none are in the least bit intuitive
23:52:41 <Audigex> grfwizard seemed okay, but i dont have TTDP installed
23:52:45 <Audigex> and it wont let me continue without it
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continue to next day ⏵
