IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2009-07-22
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00:00:12 <glx> yes full install 1.28GB, help+sample 1.10GB :)
00:00:27 <Eddi|zuHause> "travellers to bulgaria are warned that officers at the border demand fake fees for a "mandatory swine flu shot"
00:00:56 <glx> nice way to make money :)
00:01:15 <Eddi|zuHause> "neither does a swine flu shot exist, nor is it known what is actually in the shot"
00:01:52 <Yrol> ah, the compiling guide for MSVC 2005 is far better. it even mentions where to get the SVN
00:04:26 <Yrol> yes. as i said, 2005 is better. maybe a hint on the 2008 version to use the 2005 version as base would be useful.
00:04:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Yrol: it's a wiki. improve it.
00:05:03 <Yrol> (Eddi|zuHause) not my place. im just a user.
00:05:04 <OwenS> Note to self: On Solaris box, never do #killall
00:05:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Yrol: exactly your place, as you now know the information that you lacked
00:05:43 <Yrol> and i dont mean it in the emaning of tron ;o)
00:06:00 <OwenS> Solaris killall != Linux killall by a large margin
00:06:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Yrol: the devs do not edit the wiki. their time is too valuable for that
00:07:02 <Yrol> sorry, but that just sounds wrong, Eddi|zuHause
00:07:31 <glx> that's how it's meant to be used :)
00:07:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Yrol: it's a wiki. users edit it.
00:08:11 <glx> sometime devs edit it (usually to fix big lies)
00:08:39 <glx> but we rarely look at the wiki
00:08:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Yrol: sometimes the view of an outsider is exactly what a documentation needs
00:11:44 <Akoz> what are the rules in GPL license when posting binaries?
00:12:03 <OwenS> Source for the code they are based upon must be provided
00:12:18 <glx> a diff/patch is tolerated
00:12:33 <Akoz> it must be in the same file? (zip for instance)?
00:12:51 <glx> you must be able to provide the full source on request
00:13:03 <Akoz> Last edited by Rubidium on Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
00:13:03 <Akoz> Follow the rules in GPL license (COPYING) when posting binaries
00:13:15 <Akoz> I posted the .exe in a zipfile
00:13:21 <Akoz> should I add some documentation in there or smth?
00:13:58 <glx> exe is not enough for openttd
00:14:18 <Akoz> adding all added up to 4,5 mb and max size is 4
00:14:27 <Yrol> okay. i added a tiny thing
00:14:30 <glx> lang files and data files corresponding to the exe are needed to
00:15:00 <Akoz> ok.. but is that why the post was removed?
00:15:26 <glx> ask rubidium for more details I think
00:16:23 <Yrol> glx., okay.. the exe-errors are gone with 6.1.. now the usual bughunting...
00:16:52 <glx> first build a clean version Yrol :)
00:17:29 <Yrol> wont help :o( "Error 1 Error result -1073741819 returned from 'C:\Program Files\Microsoft Visual Studio 9.0\VC\bin\cl.exe'. Project
00:20:10 <Yrol> "1>Project : error PRJ0002 : Error result -1073741819 returned from 'C:\Program Files\Microsoft Visual Studio 9.0\VC\bin\cl.exe'."
00:20:35 <glx> and nothing above this line ?
00:21:11 <Yrol> oh.. it seems, string.cpp is the bad guy
00:21:52 <Yrol> i mean... errrm. the line above it says "1>string.cpp" not "oh.. it seems, string.cpp is the bad guy"
00:21:56 <glx> paste all the output on paste.openttd.org
00:23:20 <Yrol> i cleaned it first and then did a rebuild. release-version.
00:23:36 <glx> 4>..\src\music\dmusic.cpp(16) : fatal error C1083: Cannot open include file: 'dmksctrl.h': No such file or directory <-- incorrect dx sdk installation :)
00:24:22 <Yrol> well, dont we want to go from top error to bottom error?
00:24:27 <glx> hmm and strgen failed to build
00:26:01 <glx> but it stranged it compiled openttd even in table/strings.h generation failed
00:27:09 <Yrol> ( last two posts) growls i really dislike it, when people post they found a solution, but dont post the solution
00:28:14 <Yrol> why do i get a dmusic error, if i set it up to not use music?
00:31:30 <Eddi|zuHause> that's microsoft quality at work for you ;)
00:32:01 <Yrol> okay, i switched off the dxmusicpart.. aaaand get the next error sigh
00:32:09 <glx> may solve your cl crash problem
00:33:13 <Yrol> i didnt had those problems i tried last to compile openttd a year ago ( you might remember, glx ) since then i upgraded my pc. it now has 2 cores, maybe thats the issue?
00:36:22 <Yrol> (Eddi|zuHause) well, at lest i dont have to "fight the OS" with MS.
00:36:34 <Yrol> so a big step with problems is gone already
00:37:00 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't fight the OS... you need to live in symbiotic cooperation
00:37:28 <Yrol> with linux? sorry, im not a computer ;oP
00:37:43 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe that is your problem
00:37:55 <glx> linux is user friendly now
00:38:58 <Yrol> glx, there are userfriendly GUIs just like MSVC around for linux? so i dont need to do the whole typing?
00:39:03 <Eddi|zuHause> opposing to the popular opinion, a "1" does not mean anything to the computer... boolean is only the form of storage of the data, not their interpretation
00:40:07 <Yrol> opposing to that sentence, eddie :o) you cant read a sentence without interpreting it. ( okay, you REALLY are a computer winks )
00:42:05 <Yrol> however... im glad all over my body already, that there are some people alive and helping. and even without pointing me to that disgusting pamphlet "how to ask question in a smart way" shudders
00:58:22 <Yrol> it doesnt seem to be a problem with MSVC, but with how openttd was coded "The problem occurs only when the number of members in the class far exceeds the recommended maximum of 4,096."
00:59:29 <Yrol> "When the Debug Information Format option is turned on when you build the source" where can i switch off that DIF-option?
01:00:04 <glx> and string.cpp is also compiled for openttd
01:03:22 <glx> hmm open strgen properties
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01:14:21 <Yrol> glx., i switched now to a more verbose debugsystem
01:14:38 <Yrol> massive flooding of warnings and erros, but also more information about the string-error
01:14:51 <Yrol> "Error 1 fatal error C1902: Program database manager mismatch; please check your installation k:\OPENTTD\svn.openttd.org\src\string.cpp 1
01:15:40 <glx> even after a full rebuild ?
01:15:51 <Yrol> yes, cleaned and rebuilt
01:16:20 <Yrol> i also downloaded the 800 MB MSVC service pack, but... that cant be used for the express editions
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01:16:47 <Yrol> (Eddi|zuHause) did you ever played homeworld?
01:16:57 <glx> what's the exact version installed ?
01:16:59 <Eddi|zuHause> not that i recall...
01:17:21 <Yrol> hello mr. richard edlund. please dont dismember anyone here winks
01:18:22 <Yrol> seems, its installed already
01:18:58 <glx> and I have the same version
01:20:13 <Yrol> (Eddi|zuHause) its anice 3d space strategy realtime game, a bit old though. and has a very nice soundtrack available for free, collected by the community. ncie ambient stuff
01:27:15 <Yrol> laughs i love MS... glx... from a forum about that databasemanager error "The compiler is finding the wrong version of mspdbsrv.exe. Or it always used the wrong version and now it is finding the right one. "
01:28:18 <glx> yes MS world is full of fun stuff
01:28:41 <Yrol> hm, what if i simply disable the support for multiple parallel builds?
01:34:47 <Yrol> (glx) do you have this cl.exe version? 15.0.30729.1
01:34:56 <Yrol> in C:\Program Files\Microsoft Visual Studio 9.0\VC\bin
01:39:05 <glx> I installed using the iso
01:41:11 <Yrol> hm.. cl.exe seems to be included in the .net framework too
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01:51:52 <Yrol> but where do i put that "/typedil-"?
02:03:32 <Yrol> i dont think, it has to do with the string-file at all. it happens to all cpp files actually
02:14:09 <Yrol> okay, im off to bed and loko tomorrow into this again
02:14:19 <Yrol> thanks for help and food :o) waves
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08:52:53 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16908 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: s/DepotWaypointReservation/DepotReservation/
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09:01:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16910 /trunk/src/lang/ (43 files in 2 dirs): -Update: remove removed strings from the other language files
09:01:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16909 /trunk/src/ (40 files in 5 dirs):
09:01:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#2996]: NewGRF stations would be triggering assertions all over the place when using the more advanced station types.
09:01:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Change: make (rail) waypoints sub classes of 'base stations', make buoys waypoints and unify code between them where possible.
09:05:31 *** Lisa is now known as Guest113
09:05:42 <Guest113> is there a register system :x
09:05:54 *** Guest113 is now known as Liza
09:05:59 <Akoz> add some digits and Im sure it'll be fine ;)
09:07:59 <planetmaker> Maybe English people will pronounce it even more correctly this way :-P
09:09:13 <planetmaker> I referred to pronounciation of z vs. s
09:09:47 <planetmaker> dunno norwegian. but I guess one will be voiced one not.
09:10:11 <Liza> zc is pretty much the same on norwegian, z is never used
09:10:37 <planetmaker> like the difference between _s_ame and mu_s_ic
09:10:56 <Liza> hmm i dont hear any difference :P
09:11:11 <Liza> i guess im saying them wrong then
09:11:38 <Liza> but thats what happends when your born in norway, and learn norwegian
09:12:48 <Liza> who is planetmaker anyway?
09:13:12 <Akoz> he is the maker of planets
09:13:33 <planetmaker> some call Ammler description highly over-rated
09:14:33 <Liza> hmm, a possible fix suggestion for ottd should be able to build while negative money
09:14:49 <planetmaker> You got a loan for that
09:14:53 <planetmaker> You can borrow more
09:14:54 <Liza> gets bit dangerus when you only have a few more meters to go and run out of cash
09:15:06 <Liza> in early game the only time you need a loan :P and cant loan more
09:15:47 <OwenS> Stupid stupid stupid... Biig box arrives. Open it up to find foam, more foam, even more foam, lots of air... and an 160GB HD
09:16:03 <Liza> then how can i afford building a long train to a city and fill it whit people and crash it :( whit another train that i cant afford
09:16:05 <Tefad> i always start with a short coal route
09:16:08 <OwenS> That box was big enough to contain all the other parts of my oder!
09:16:15 <Akoz> thats why you always loose Tefad
09:16:16 <Liza> Tefad i only play on desert maps
09:16:23 <Akoz> the long coal route always wins
09:16:32 <Tefad> well whatever works on desert..
09:17:02 <Liza> anyway there should be natural cargo loss when transfering those types of goods
09:17:29 <Liza> and for steamtrains there should be nessessary to place watertowers along the track
09:17:46 <Liza> sorta like what they did whit electric
09:18:00 <Liza> exept that was sorta unnessessary since most trains hide the electric as a 3rd rail
09:18:06 <planetmaker> What would it add to gameplay?
09:18:18 <Liza> that was what i was wondering when they added electric rails
09:18:20 <OwenS> Erm.. most trains 3rd rail? What? Since when?
09:18:46 <Tefad> 3rd rail for metros maybe
09:18:47 <Liza> in anycase poled electric to height has its downsides too
09:18:47 <planetmaker> uhm... there's no 3rd rail in that sense. There's plain, there's electric, there's monorail and there's maglev
09:18:50 <OwenS> The only 3rd rail trains I know are urban ones
09:19:12 <Liza> only used in one contry i think that monorail
09:19:29 <OwenS> there a short Maglev line installed in China
09:19:38 <OwenS> planetmaker: Shame we can't do like Locomotion with addable 3rd rail & catenary
09:19:59 <planetmaker> I dunno Locomotion.
09:20:06 <planetmaker> Nor do I actually have intend to do so :-)
09:20:07 <Liza> meh, it would be fun to have a harder game
09:20:11 <Liza> seriusly hard isnt very hard
09:20:17 <Liza> and now whit the ease use of light signals
09:20:41 <planetmaker> Liza, get e.g. the 2cc Train Set, start in 1920, use also egrvts and use high building costs.
09:20:58 <planetmaker> Maybe even add ECS industries or at least Pikkabird industries
09:21:12 <planetmaker> good morning TrueBrain
09:22:01 <Liza> also i would like to see r&d in game, where you can put money in reserch, else it takes longer for new train types to appear
09:22:18 <Liza> or shorter if you can afford funding it, and or giveing the one that funds most 2 or 1 year advance use, like they have now
09:22:30 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16911 /trunk/docs/ (landscape.html landscape_grid.html): -Update: map array documentation
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09:24:42 <planetmaker> Liza, that would need a person sufficiently interested in that feature and sufficiently knowledgable in programming to implement it.
09:25:16 <planetmaker> and it would need deciding on all those issues how that relates to existing NewGRF which define introduction dates etc pp. Not an easy thing to do.
09:25:23 <Liza> just add a int per train that is water level, and it drains per sec of travel or somethintg
09:25:33 <Liza> and passing a water tower or forceing trains to stop and refill
09:25:37 <Liza> i honestly dont see the difficulty
09:26:06 <Liza> but then again i havent checked what language ottd is written in :P
09:26:10 <planetmaker> I referred to the r&d "proposal"
09:26:25 <Liza> ah, that i dunno, just make a ref to the years train come
09:26:36 <Liza> and push that year time based on funds stored in another int
09:26:53 <Liza> that people can send their money to of corse
09:27:31 <Liza> virsa versa if no money then train come a few years later, realisticly train industry has to r&d more trains :P
09:27:47 <Liza> and it doesnt need to be in normal game, just a added challenge :P
09:28:04 <Alberth> can you add a condition to releasing a train for use, or is it just a fixed year?
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09:28:44 <Liza> but as whit all numbers :P allways fun to change
09:29:06 <Alberth> in NewGRF I mean. If the former, you could make an industry that does what you want, I think
09:30:24 <Liza> i was speaking in speculation and suggestive manner :P
09:30:25 <Alberth> in the form of needing to deliver 'enough' cargo to some industry
09:30:32 <Liza> sure that can be a factor too
09:30:54 <Alberth> I was thinking aloud in ways to implement it :p
09:31:22 <Liza> you should allways say what your thinking ;)
09:31:35 <planetmaker> Liza, it was actually clear :-)
09:32:22 <planetmaker> Kowing who he is, but more so knowing roughly how the newgrf system works, make clear what he proposes :-)
09:32:23 <Alberth> there are a bunch of NewGRF wizards here that understand my question :)
09:33:06 <planetmaker> FYI, Liza : newgrf are not just new graphics, but it can define also quite a bit of game mechanics.
09:33:22 <planetmaker> it's a whole plug-in system in a way.
09:33:47 <planetmaker> it just needs people who write those newgrf. You could be the one who does the first r&d newgrf :-)
09:34:03 <Liza> ooh i dont know about that
09:34:11 <Liza> writeing new grfs are quite expensive
09:34:55 <Alberth> most of us make new things because we want some feature in the game
09:35:29 <Liza> sorta like monkey see monkey do?
09:36:00 <Liza> what language do you guys?
09:36:31 <Liza> nfo, hmm dont think iv heard of it, im gona haf to check up on that
09:36:43 <Liza> its not object oriented?
09:36:52 <OwenS> It's not even procedural!
09:36:55 <Liza> National Farmers Organization (NFO)
09:37:14 <Liza> so you make fields in logical data pattern
09:37:14 <Akoz> nah its not pretty at all
09:37:21 <Liza> and hopefor the best that it will work in game?
09:37:49 <Akoz> from what I gathered you just fetch info from available places and then display it somewhere
09:37:54 <Akoz> so you cant really program anything
09:39:06 <OwenS> NFO is basically an assembly language for the interpreter :p
09:39:42 <Akoz> in assembly you can acctually do stuff :p
09:39:43 <OwenS> NFOs a confusing hybrid of declarative and weird :p
09:40:35 <Liza> altavista isnt pointing to anything i see thats programing oriented
09:40:44 <Akoz> I just googled "openttd nfo"
09:41:19 <OwenS> What programming anguage have yoy been using?!
09:41:30 <Liza> for typeing comments inside programs :P
09:41:47 <OwenS> Oh yeah the comments are normal. Nothing else is
09:41:48 <Akoz> that isnt part of the nfo
09:42:08 <Akoz> -1 * 0 07 9D 04 \7= 01 00 00 00 01
09:42:25 <Liza> pretty close to assember :P
09:42:45 <OwenS> No it doesn't. Believe me. It looks far worse :p
09:43:00 <Liza> ouch, why do you guys use such a difficuly language :P
09:43:08 <TrueBrain> 10 lines, and all it can do is bitch about everything
09:43:11 <OwenS> Ask PatchMan. It's TTDPatch's invention :p
09:43:14 <Liza> there are plenty of easyer languages to use nowdays >.<
09:43:33 <Akoz> its just so that not "anybody" can go and mess around with grfs :p
09:43:47 <Liza> very convinient for a OPEN source prodject >.<
09:43:48 <OwenS> Also... No programming language matches the speed
09:44:18 <Liza> doesnt that match its speed :P
09:44:28 <TrueBrain> Liza: can you at least try to put one line out that isn't negative in any way?
09:44:51 <Liza> the things you copypasted has a black square after 0
09:45:06 <Liza> so i dunno if mirc norwegian language displays it correctly
09:45:09 <OwenS> I will admit I've only seen one more baroque language than NFO. And thats the microassembly for my processor :P
09:45:31 <TrueBrain> OwenS: try out brainfuck or whitespace or that shit
09:45:46 <Liza> adress a\7=memory adress?
09:45:58 <Liza> and line under i dunno -1x0 again
09:46:13 <OwenS> TrueBrain: Perhaps I should say "more barroque programming language that someone hasn't invented as a escoteric programming language"
09:46:49 <Liza> my language compared to this language makes c++ seem like english to me
09:47:16 <TrueBrain> give it a rest already
09:48:00 <Noldo> Whining will get you places
09:48:12 <TrueBrain> wine gets me in places :p
09:48:52 <TrueBrain> OwenS: you remind me that I had to laugh hard when I found out that a CPU has its own CPU, so to say (big state machine with code controlling that) .. it is funny to realise :p
09:48:58 <Liza> well, i guess i could get into nfo language
09:49:17 <OwenS> TrueBrain: Yeah. My microassembly is definitely not standard program like though :p
09:49:19 <OwenS> # Interrupt Return Instruction
09:49:20 <OwenS> 42 IRet B=ILR, Store=IP, Next=*
09:49:22 <OwenS> * B=IPSW, Store=PSW, Next=Op
09:49:28 <OwenS> I notice the tabs have been stripped >_<
09:50:15 <TrueBrain> like all sane clients do :p :p
09:50:19 <OwenS> Every microinstruction encodes the address of the next one. "Gotos considered harmful" indeed
09:51:10 <TrueBrain> you got to love that shit, or run like hell :p
09:52:11 <Liza> and int money declares where money is found
09:52:24 <Liza> so i guess nfo you have to type the adresses manualy?
09:54:09 <Alberth> NFO is not really a program (although it does have conditions), more a collection of data that gets used by the OpenTTD program.
09:54:15 <Liza> but from the looks of those lines you pasted it seem at least some stuff is readable :P so i guess your not useing referances to location where the function you wana run or something is adressed and so on makeing lts of adressing around
09:55:03 <Alberth> each line defines something (the '-1 *' starts a new line)
09:55:26 <OwenS> TrueBrain: I guess my control unit could be described as microcode ROM, a bunch of multiplexers controlled by it's outputs and the instruction word, and a bunch of latches
09:56:56 <Alberth> Liza: iirc the first byte after '*' is the byte count, followed by 'byte count' bytes that express what you want. Browse the specs to get an idea of what you can do with it.
09:57:56 <Liza> this level of programing seem bit hard core for me :P
09:59:27 <Alberth> yes, it gets you in firm contact with bits and bytes :p
10:01:08 <Alberth> it is just a matter of getting used to, remember the first program that you saw, didn't it look like spanish to you? (assuming you cannot read spanish :p )
10:03:02 <Liza> hmm, it was actualy basic i was first in contact whit :P
10:03:31 <Alberth> hmm, an airport built nest to a city announces it does not accept passengers and mail any more. That cannot be good :)
10:04:22 <Alberth> I prefer to use Python for that.
10:04:44 <Liza> yes iv been wanting to test phyton
10:04:51 <Liza> heard it was used in eve online
10:05:27 <Liza> stackless phyton that is
10:06:44 <Liza> why arnt you guys useing that language instead of nfo :P
10:07:32 <TrueBrain> most likely because there is like 5 years between stackless python and nfo .. nfo being there first
10:07:40 <Alberth> NFO is more just a collection of declarations, it is not really a program that is executed
10:08:00 <Liza> sounds like its time for upgrades ;)
10:08:25 <TrueBrain> sounds more to me it is time for an attitude change and respect a bit more what is done
10:08:47 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: what was it about starting a ignore list? :p
10:09:05 <Alberth> Also, NFO is large and complex. Several have tried to make something better, but doing that means either that you can support only a subset, or the 'better language' explodes in size and complexity.
10:09:26 <Liza> true that ottd runs pretty smooth
10:09:37 <Alberth> and a subset is no good :)
10:10:43 <Alberth> last but not least, NFO may look horrible, but once you get to understand it, it is really not that difficult.
10:11:12 <Alberth> (since you just have a bunch of data declaration lines)
10:11:20 <Liza> is there some webpage that has some help files on nfo?
10:11:26 <Liza> something to get started on?
10:12:46 <Alberth> originally NewGRF's for just for adding graphics
10:13:44 <Liza> then there might be problems adding r&d
10:13:58 <Liza> newgrf seem to be a script language
10:14:15 <Liza> some stuff can actualy need a main program modification
10:14:37 <Akoz> so do it in the program code
10:14:44 <Akoz> easier there anyway.. since you know cpp :)
10:15:03 <Liza> unless whole game is seperated into newgrfs, like a new button in gui for r&d?
10:16:01 <Alberth> now we come back to my thinking aloud :)
10:16:15 <Liza> well, in spring\ca they removed gui from client, and put it into luaui, so there wasnt a default user interface
10:16:35 <Liza> people pretty much made custom interfaces based on what they wanted and liked makeing buttons and so on
10:17:34 <TrueBrain> I see you have much to do Liza
10:17:40 <Liza> hmm, Alberth do you know about ottd gui?
10:18:20 <Alberth> Hmm, would I know? I have been working on that for the past year or two, or so :p
10:18:31 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16912 /trunk/ (33 files in 6 dirs): -Codechange: split waypoint.h in waypoint_base.h and waypoint_func.h
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10:19:03 <Liza> so, its possible to modify useing newGRF?, and or possibly replace the whole gui?
10:19:34 <Liza> in case i wana try on a modification where i can raise the fontsize on things :P
10:19:49 <TrueBrain> fontsize is in openttd.cfg, much easier
10:19:59 <Liza> ok ;) but i was speaking theoreticaly
10:20:24 <Liza> change out all the menus and such
10:20:33 <Alberth> you can change the graphics, as eg done in OpenGFX. There are severe limitations atm since all buttons, labels, etc have fixed size.
10:20:46 <Alberth> I am working on getting that improved.
10:21:09 <Alberth> Ammler: r&d: research and development
10:21:10 <Liza> i just like to mention, in spring we have no fixed images on menus and such
10:21:29 <TrueBrain> well, it seems you should join that game
10:21:31 <Liza> but that of corse could be replaced too
10:21:51 <Liza> im just wondering if newgrf allows stuff like that
10:21:59 <Liza> so i know limitations and such
10:22:37 <planetmaker> well... you can describe vehicles, industries, houses
10:22:47 <planetmaker> you can describe costs and interaction of all those
10:22:48 <Alberth> you can define all the graphics. Not sure what 'change the menu' would mean
10:23:02 <planetmaker> and you can replace pretty all graphics
10:23:28 <planetmaker> but you cannot yet change sizes of menus or alter window layouts
10:23:41 <Liza> ok, that was what i was wondering
10:23:47 <Alberth> so for the r&d, I was proposing an interaction between an industry and a vehicle
10:24:04 <Liza> that sounds pretty nifty
10:24:56 <Alberth> yep, you can control a large part of the game mechanics from NewGRFs
10:25:10 <Liza> well what i was originaly thinking when rnd was useing the finances table and add a button there
10:25:30 <Liza> but i guess sending spesific resources to a place could be good too
10:25:45 <Liza> changes too? so you cant have a static rail just feeding it?
10:26:30 <Liza> adds to gameplay and challenge for the purpose of getting advantage ?faster trains? ?earlyer trains?
10:27:30 <Alberth> I don't know the limitations of NewGRF, but in theory, all of that.
10:28:06 <planetmaker> But afaik you cannot control _who_ actually gets offered a train (type).
10:28:12 <planetmaker> So it's all or no one.
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10:28:29 <planetmaker> and you cannot control who gets the advance offer (12 month before the actual introduction)
10:28:38 <Liza> then how does that 1 year advance thingy work
10:28:43 <planetmaker> I *think*. Not 100% sure though
10:28:44 <Liza> in game right now when you get a random offer
10:28:55 <Liza> it gives exclusive access for just one player
10:29:14 <planetmaker> one random company gets that offer. If declined anohter gets it. Also just *afaik* - not necessarily 100% correct
10:29:37 <Alberth> I don't know, you'd have to read the source code for that.
10:29:39 <Liza> yes but that has the nessessary factor
10:30:07 <Liza> for the effect were seeking :P
10:31:03 <Alberth> for single player, it would still kind of work.
10:31:33 <Alberth> and it gives a cheap test bed for trying whether it is really so much fun
10:31:38 <Liza> hmm, well if we find out about that offer thingy how it works
10:31:46 <Liza> then it can be edited and modifyed
10:31:47 <Alberth> alternatively, make a patch
10:33:01 <Liza> hmm i guess i could take a look in source code of ottd
10:34:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r16913 /trunk/src/rail_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Signal, train depot, and waypoint windows switched to using nested widget tree.
10:35:24 <planetmaker> he, seems like you're removing all the old window stuff now, eh, Alberth ? :-)
10:38:45 * planetmaker wonders how many different windows there are in OpenTTD. Albert might know from tiresome experience :-)
10:39:18 <Liza> isnt windows = windows + wonder?
10:39:39 <Belugas> iirc, there is an enum for those window types, planetmaker
10:39:51 <planetmaker> Liza, look at the source code before you judge "about time" for those changes :-)
10:39:59 <TrueBrain> Belugas: but there are more windows than windows types :p
10:40:01 <planetmaker> Belugas, true. I totally forgot about that :-)
10:40:23 <planetmaker> it gives an indication at least.
10:40:31 <Belugas> TrueBrain, htat is called a window of opportunities
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10:41:38 <planetmaker> salut Belugas - also btw :-)
10:41:46 <TrueBrain> oh .. yes .. hello Belugas
10:42:53 <Alberth> planetmaker: 112 on last count :p
10:43:29 <planetmaker> great opportunity to increase your commit count :-P
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10:51:16 <Belugas> nice job Alberth. very nice.
10:51:34 <Liza> 112 number of times you changed something?
10:51:40 <Belugas> wife's shower is over, see in in an hour or so
10:52:00 <Alberth> no 112 windows exist in the game
10:52:20 <Liza> sorry, i wasnt paying attention for a while
10:56:18 <Alberth> planetmaker: well, 10 or so are really interesting, the other 92 are a lot of 'almost the same as the previous one'
10:56:41 <planetmaker> :-) Sure, I'd assume so.
10:57:02 <planetmaker> Actually it'd be a pain, if it was different actually. And IMO it would't speak favourably of the design then :-P
10:58:40 <Liza> are we talking about windows in game like finances table and such?
10:59:31 <Liza> i like the graph tables best ;)
10:59:45 <Alberth> and the toolbars and the error boxes and the intro-screen, and the etc etc
11:00:11 <Alberth> graph tables are easy, just a canvas with free drawing of lines :)
11:00:33 <Liza> but it makes you think you are a corporation leader ;)
11:00:34 <Alberth> order window and network windows are much more difficult
11:02:20 <Alberth> Liza: we do that to make the game more addictive ;)
11:03:01 <Liza> well exept for all the distance mineing in game where you place a tiny part of a station touching the factory you wana get stuff from then just place the actual station nearby >.<
11:03:27 <Liza> but i guess thats just a setting that people can allow or disallow on their servers
11:06:07 <planetmaker> people should not just go "I don't like that playing style, let's forbid it". It shows sooo limited world view and sooo limited tolerance for other views...
11:06:48 <Liza> yes, if i was server admin id disable it, i prefer when station of one is touching all the parts that it contain
11:07:31 <Liza> and i wouldnt mind the distance from factory to consumer was calculated from those two and not where the stations where placed :P
11:07:45 <Alberth> planetmaker: it is another form of finding 'the best', which doesn't exist in many cases.
11:08:05 <Liza> difficulty is sorta nerfed when you can place station anywhere as long as you can place another part that is in contact whit
11:08:19 <Liza> so people dont realy need to find work around to get around your stations to get to same place
11:08:34 <Liza> seeing the competition will built on the far bakside of where its sending to
11:08:47 <Liza> makeing all the rails pretty straightforward :P
11:09:02 <Liza> but thats just me saying how id like a more challenged game
11:10:56 <Liza> its also noticeably easyer to place stuff inside town then link outside now whit the new nice streetstations
11:11:20 <Noldo> you want to click more?
11:11:38 <Liza> sure if you wana put it like that
11:11:53 <Liza> 2 clicks is what it takes now whiout much planing
11:12:02 <Liza> station inside, station outside linked
11:12:24 <Liza> doesnt need to look at town layout or find best spot
11:13:05 <planetmaker> and it's sooo easy: just impose those limits upon yourself. And play that way.
11:13:36 <planetmaker> doesn't even need any programme intervention
11:13:53 <planetmaker> but complaining that others don't play that way... well.
11:13:55 <Liza> in a anycase playing on those servers where you need to grow a town, its pretty impossible to win whiout useing every possible shortcut
11:14:08 <Liza> cus everyone "will" be useing them
11:14:45 <Liza> its like a switch thats allways enabled :p if you arnt playing like them then, too bad you have no chance :P
11:15:24 <Liza> takes longer to start off if your building your 7or8 lenght station, when the guy your competeing against builds a 1 station next to you and a massive train and send it off :P, sure he loads slower but he gets it back by distance he covered :P
11:15:43 <Liza> and some extremes that iv seen they just send the train to depot at end and sell and rebuy it back at start
11:15:54 <Liza> til they can fund lots of basic operations
11:16:28 <Liza> theres realy no planing that goes into the lines, straight as possible easy as possible or dont build
11:16:43 <Liza> game is on hard, but thats not noticed at all
11:17:18 <Liza> produceing faster money than they can spend so loan button doesnt need touching even just to repay, seeing interest is nearly nothing :p
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11:35:47 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16914 /trunk/ (16 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: split Station and BaseStation into different files
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11:54:21 <SmatZ> The user then needs to install TTD (for example under Wine).
11:54:50 <SmatZ> There is no script or handy installer to automate this.
11:55:54 <SmatZ> indeed no pause mode in fact.
11:56:32 <SmatZ> it seems the author prefers simutrans
11:56:41 <SmatZ> isn't he a simutrans dev/contributor?
11:57:08 <SmatZ> and he certainly plays ottd without newgrfs
11:57:18 <Noldo> well, it's a matter of preference anyways
11:58:14 <Noldo> I couldn't stand the graphics in simultrans and didn't give me sence of archivement fast enough
12:01:47 <SmatZ> anyway, I don't think there's any war between simutrans and openttd and locomotion and...
12:02:02 <SmatZ> and ttdpatch of course ;)
12:03:01 <Noldo> well users might see it as more of an ideological choice :)
12:11:48 <Liza> simutrans wanst that greath, i wouldnt put it in league whit ottd :P
12:13:17 <Alberth> that would have killed the whole article :)
12:14:36 <fonsinchen> Also he doesn't mention grf at all
12:14:54 <fonsinchen> and then states that simutrans is more extendible than ottd
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12:16:38 <SmatZ> fonsinchen: I still have smallmap_zoom in my list-of-things-to-do ;)
12:16:49 <SmatZ> sorry, I am quite busy nowadays :(
12:16:56 <SmatZ> having fun on holidays and such :)
12:17:26 <Liza> well simutrans has that thing about people actualy have places they want to go
12:17:35 <Liza> and tad more complexity to factorys and such
12:17:44 <Liza> and the underground buildable tunnels
12:17:57 <Liza> and bridges untop of bridges i dunno diagonaly too :P
12:18:30 <Liza> actualy bridges that you can turns in would be nice, same whit undeground in ottd :x
12:18:39 <fonsinchen> smatz, smallmap-zoom has some bug anyway. See the last post of Alberth in that thread. I'll let you know when I've found out about that.
12:18:53 <Noldo> lot's of things would be nice
12:19:13 <SmatZ> fonsinchen: ah, thanks :)
12:37:28 <Liza> arg that monkey sound is giveing me nightmares, they should realy take out that sound whenever near a jungle in ottd :x
12:37:42 <Liza> just think of the kittens!
12:38:04 <Liza> im playing on desert map see?
12:39:13 <Noldo> what does it have to do with kittens?
12:39:27 <Liza> nothing, i said think of the kittens
12:43:40 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16915 /trunk/src/signal.cpp: -Fix (r16909): signal updates didn't propagate through waypoints
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12:47:29 <Liza> is there a way to set default serviceing of trains to currentmaxreliability-20% instead of 150 days
12:47:47 <Liza> cus i swear that 150 day seem to kick in even if it unintentionaly went into serviceing
12:47:53 <Liza> unless i click goto service
12:49:06 <Liza> or it has a order spesificly saying so too
12:51:51 <Eddi|zuHause> yay... i have excellent news
12:51:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i found 3 more switches
12:52:01 <Alberth> ie don't store negative values in an enum :)
12:55:16 <fonsinchen> hmm, I have to admit that was a hack
12:55:44 <fonsinchen> However plain int is much less descriptive than ZoomLevel ...
12:55:48 <Liza> store the negative in positive manner :P in a 2ndary number
12:55:49 <Alberth> why not add a few more values
12:56:10 <Alberth> or must normal == 0 ?
12:56:24 <fonsinchen> yes, otherwise other things freak out
12:56:43 <fonsinchen> I had posted a patch where I changed that, but that was ... not so well received.
12:58:14 <fonsinchen> I mean, you can't set ZOOM_LVL_MIN to something smaller than ZOOM_LVL_NORMAL. Otherwise the blitter will get extremely slow as it has to generate lots of large sprites.
12:58:17 <Eddi|zuHause> relying on the value that an enum constant has is... weird...
12:58:41 <Liza> wait you cant trust a constant?
12:58:56 <Alberth> Liza: plz quite the noise
12:59:03 <fonsinchen> So you can of course still define smaller zoom levels than ZOOM_LVL_NORMAL, but then it's even more hackish.
12:59:14 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: you mean that using an enum for its value you find weird? :)
12:59:50 <TrueBrain> (not following the rest of the conversation :p
13:00:39 <Eddi|zuHause> no... relying on the value to never change is weird...
13:00:54 <TrueBrain> I don't follow that reasoning, but okay :)
13:01:10 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway... i'm not following the conversation either ;=
13:01:12 <fonsinchen> Actually it doesn't rely on normal to be 0, but it does rely on normal to be the smallest zoom level.
13:02:47 <Alberth> if I understand you right, ZOOM_LVL_NORMAL can be eg 4, as long as ZOOM_LVL_MIN == ZOOM_LVL_NORMAL.
13:03:11 <TrueBrain> when I rewrote the zoom-system, I made 2 zoom-in levels, so that is doubtful :p
13:03:27 <Alberth> if so, what happens if I set ZoomLevel to ZOOM_LVL_NORMAL-1 then?
13:03:42 <Alberth> euh, I mean 'zoom' of course
13:04:03 <Liza> smoothing between zooms would be nice instead of just hopping between zooms
13:04:42 <fonsinchen> TrueBrain, those zoom in levels must have vanished in the mean time
13:04:45 <Alberth> Liza: code is in src/smallmap_gui.cpp
13:04:51 <TrueBrain> Alberth: the only 'problem' is that blitters fail when you start to zoom-in .. but SmatZ has a patch for that :p (sorry if I don't follow the conversation, but okay :p)
13:04:53 <fonsinchen> at least there is no trace of them in the code
13:05:04 <TrueBrain> nope, because the blitter can't handle them
13:05:10 <TrueBrain> not without glitches or heavy rewriting :)
13:05:43 <fonsinchen> Alberth, at the moment ZOOM_LVL_NORMAL - 1 would be negative and trigger your bug
13:05:45 <Alberth> TrueBrain: are you talking about a viewport or just the smallmap ?
13:06:03 <TrueBrain> I am talking about ZOOM_LVL_XXX
13:06:09 <TrueBrain> and their helpers in zoom_func.h :p
13:06:15 <fonsinchen> setting ZOOM_LVL_NORMAL to some arbitrary value > 0 is equally as hackish as defining zoom levels < ZOOM_LVL_MIN
13:06:17 <Alberth> fonsinchen: Can "if I understand you right, ZOOM_LVL_NORMAL can be eg 4, as long as ZOOM_LVL_MIN == ZOOM_LVL_NORMAL" ?
13:06:20 <TrueBrain> ZOOM_LVL_BEGIN should always be 0, never any negative value
13:06:46 <Alberth> fonsinchen: assume we add a few additional zoom levels between 0 and 4 :)
13:06:57 <TrueBrain> the idea about ZOOM_LVL is this: BEGIN starts at 0, END ends at N, the rest is between, where NORMAL is the normal zoom
13:07:08 <TrueBrain> want zoom-in, put them above NORMAL (and assign the first zoom-in level 0)
13:07:17 <fonsinchen> you can't make ZOOM_LVL_BEGIN < ZOOM_LVL_NORMAL without the blitter freaking out
13:07:19 <Alberth> yes, and NORMAL does not need to be 0
13:07:27 <TrueBrain> fonsinchen: if you keep BEGIN at zero, you can
13:07:28 <Liza> ah, Alberth thats readable code i tought you guys were working in nfo?
13:07:28 <Alberth> ZOOM_LVL_MIN == ZOOM_LVL_NORMAL
13:07:49 <Liza> i were just assumeing you guys were talking in higher programing language for understandingpurpose of what needed to be done
13:08:32 <SmatZ> Alberth: fonsinchen TrueBrain some architectures have enums unsigned by default
13:08:40 <SmatZ> sorry I didn't follow whole converstaion
13:08:50 <TrueBrain> SmatZ: I have the same problem :)
13:08:58 <TrueBrain> I wonder why they tried to assign a negative value in the first place
13:09:28 <fonsinchen> the problem is that ZOOM_LVL_BEGIN and ZOOM_LVL_END are referenced in various places for example to generate sprites or for the zooming of the main map etc.
13:09:28 <Alberth> fonsinchen: ZOOM_LVL_MIN = 4, ZOOM_LVL_NORMAL = 4, zoom = 3 , ZOOM_LVL_BEGIN = 0 , ZOOM_LVL_END >= 4, what would happen?
13:09:31 <TrueBrain> Alberth: I don't see why MIN exists, while there is BEGIN :p
13:09:59 <Alberth> MIN may be just a hint to the blitter or so, and have the wrong name
13:09:59 <TrueBrain> fonsinchen: BEGIN and END are not used in the code
13:10:05 <TrueBrain> (okay, BEGIN is in sound.cpp, but that clearly is a big)
13:10:17 <TrueBrain> MIN seems to indicate the first zoom level, when buttons disable and stuff :p
13:10:38 <fonsinchen> I'll repost that patch where I had changed the zoom levels ...
13:10:59 <SmatZ> still, making zoom-in for trunk is useless
13:11:09 <Alberth> fonsinchen: it is possible that we need eg a minimal blitter constant or so
13:11:09 <TrueBrain> let me put it this way: when I wrote zoom_XXX, I had zoom-in values :) (so the system is designed like that)
13:11:24 <TrueBrain> I agree with SmatZ, zoom-in values are silly
13:12:11 <fonsinchen> fickzoo.com/fonsinchen/smallmapp_zoom_r16593.diff
13:14:29 <TrueBrain> NEVER assign a negative value to an enum
13:14:34 <TrueBrain> that should be clear by now
13:14:55 <TrueBrain> BEGIN = 0, IN_8X = 0, rest auto-enum (so ++)
13:15:45 <fonsinchen> it won't help, though
13:15:46 <Alberth> and most likely the zoom and the blitter are coupled wrong, and need fixing/extending
13:15:56 <fonsinchen> the problem is the difference between BEGIN and NORMAL
13:15:59 <TrueBrain> if you would have read the zoom_func helpers, you would have noticed they all make theirself relative to NORMAL
13:16:11 <TrueBrain> BEGIN is NEVER used outside that enum
13:16:26 <fonsinchen> then I guess 0 is used somewhere
13:16:38 <SmatZ> BEGIN is used in blitters
13:16:47 <TrueBrain> int izoom = zoom - ZOOM_LVL_NORMAL; <- that is how they are made relative
13:17:08 <TrueBrain> oh, you are right SmatZ, forgot -R :p
13:17:16 <SmatZ> for (ZoomLevel z = ZOOM_LVL_BEGIN; z < ZOOM_LVL_END; z++) {
13:17:23 <TrueBrain> fonsinchen: but yeah, the blitter doesn't understand zoom-in stuff
13:17:32 <TrueBrain> make them start at NORMAL or what ever fixes it
13:17:53 <fonsinchen> start them at NORMAL and terminate them at END?
13:18:05 <TrueBrain> then you only do the zoom-out levels
13:18:16 <TrueBrain> that is the most logic solution ;)
13:18:36 <Alberth> or even introduce a new constant for it
13:18:37 <SmatZ> BEGIN and END should be used for iterating over all enum values
13:18:53 <SmatZ> so if ZOOM_LVL_MIN = -1, then ZOOM_LVL_BEGIN = -1 too
13:19:00 <fonsinchen> well, I can do that. But I'll bet that as soon as I post that patch some of you will disagree.
13:19:16 <TrueBrain> boo-hoo :) Welcome to the real world :)
13:19:27 <fonsinchen> So I try to make my patches touch as little unrelated code as possible.
13:19:41 <TrueBrain> I agree with Alberth, using _MIN or a new constant might make more sense for later additions
13:19:51 <SmatZ> patch using zoom-in for minimap has very low chance of getting includeed in trunk
13:20:17 <SmatZ> so I don't quite see the purpose of converstaion about ZOOM_IN_ levels
13:20:30 <fonsinchen> if I have to maintain it myself anyway ... why all the hassle?
13:20:43 <TrueBrain> just don't abuse the system by going under BEGIN :p
13:20:49 <SmatZ> then you don't have to 100% stick with OTTD coding style :)
13:21:02 <planetmaker> 99.5% will suffice :-P
13:21:05 <Belugas> or if you insist on BEGIN, switch to Delphi..
13:21:12 <planetmaker> you may add an additional space somewhere :-P
13:21:59 <SmatZ> on the other hand, I have been planning some ZOOM_LVL_IN for viewports for long time
13:22:03 <planetmaker> good ol' times of Turbo Pascal...
13:22:08 <SmatZ> not that long as TrueBrain, but...
13:22:18 <TrueBrain> SmatZ: but you fixed the single pixel row error :p
13:23:05 <fonsinchen> so I'll make that zoom level in smallmap an int until someone else makes more zoom levels for other windows. Then I'll change it back.
13:23:24 <TrueBrain> yeah ... good solution (NOT!)
13:23:24 <fonsinchen> But it doesn't matter anyway as smallmap-zoom will be part of my fork.
13:23:30 <TrueBrain> but go ahead ;) Then fr sure it wn't be included :)
13:23:43 <TrueBrain> what happens t my o ...
13:24:23 <SmatZ> fonsinchen: I hope I am not bad to you or so :) I hope you understand including zoom-in-minimap in trunk is useless
13:24:44 <SmatZ> or at least, not useful
13:24:51 <fonsinchen> it's only useless if you don't intend to ever include cargodist
13:24:58 <TrueBrain> SmatZ: but my 32bpp gfx!!! :p
13:25:06 <planetmaker> SmatZ, fonsinchen : zoom-out would be useful on mini-map
13:25:20 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: zoom-in, we talk about :p
13:25:25 <fonsinchen> And you can easily reduce the zoom limits in smallmap-zoom to only allow zoom out
13:25:28 <SmatZ> fonsinchen: once (if) cargodist is included, then zoom-in-minimap can be included too
13:25:31 <planetmaker> for moderately bigger maps it's hard to get an overview which fits on the screen
13:25:35 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, I know.
13:25:47 <fonsinchen> the problem is that cargodist can never be included as one single patch#
13:25:49 <SmatZ> planetmaker: yeah, that's my point :) zooming-out is definitely useful :)
13:26:13 <Alberth> fonsinchen: it is too big and complicated to do that any way
13:26:14 <fonsinchen> You know, for that exact reason I'm maintaining about 10 git branches
13:26:26 <fonsinchen> one of them is smallmap zoom
13:26:30 <planetmaker> fonsinchen, 10 branches for one cargodist?
13:26:52 <planetmaker> fonsinchen, ever thought about a patch queue then instead?
13:26:55 <SmatZ> but why include 1 patch while others will never be included
13:27:21 <fonsinchen> if that is the case, then you don't need to include that one
13:27:25 <planetmaker> fonsinchen, you're not German, are you?
13:27:49 <SmatZ> yeah, and it hasn't been decided to include cargod?st yet
13:27:51 <planetmaker> what an abuse domain name, then
13:28:02 <planetmaker> well... not abusive
13:28:26 <planetmaker> not sure I want to visit swinger clubs...
13:28:26 <Belugas> planetmaker, i'm still deeply on it, every day of the week ;)... well.. not Turbo Pascal... but still Pascal :D
13:29:02 <SmatZ> or just zoo full of sex :)
13:29:07 <planetmaker> oh... :-) still used in production environment? :-)
13:29:16 <planetmaker> SmatZ, like fuck-zoo
13:29:21 <fonsinchen> so, ok: I'll split up smallmap zoom in three different parts: 1. smallmap zoom out, 2. ZoomLevel changes 3. smallmap zoom in
13:29:27 <Belugas> Delphi is the evolution of Turbo Pascal, yes
13:29:36 <fonsinchen> then I hope that 1. and 2. will eventually be accepted
13:30:02 <fonsinchen> is there a chance for that?
13:30:08 <Noldo> fonsinchen: I though you hoped your whole big pack of patches will eventually be accepted?
13:30:09 <TrueBrain> fonsinchen: if you make a small patch which replaces BEGIN with MIN (or maybe rename MIN to MAP_MIN so you can later add SMALLMAP_MIN or what ever), that should never give any real problem accepting
13:30:26 <TrueBrain> (assuming SmatZ agrees on it, knowing that piece of code too :p)
13:30:27 <Belugas> small increments, always
13:30:38 <Belugas> well... when making sens...
13:30:45 <Belugas> of course of course...
13:31:03 <Belugas> and not comeing from yorick.. of course of course
13:31:13 <TrueBrain> yorick is doing well lately :p
13:31:15 <TrueBrain> he is growing up :)
13:32:52 <TrueBrain> SmatZ: I believe they were only added to enumerate over all values .. assuming the blitter would always handle all zoom levels :p
13:32:55 <SmatZ> I think questions about ZOOM_LVL_MIN / _BEGIN and such will be solved by dev commiting it to trunk ;)
13:33:38 <TrueBrain> SmatZ: so I guess if we rename _BEGIN in the blitters to BLITTER_MIN, and assign that to NORMAL, fonsinchen will be happy :p
13:34:34 <fonsinchen> yes, that would be nice
13:34:40 <TrueBrain> (and I guess BEGIN and END can then be removed, and COUNT can take the place of END, but I don't care about that :p :p)
13:35:27 <TrueBrain> maybe replace COUNT with BLITTER_COUNT too ..
13:36:21 <SmatZ> BLITTER_MIN ? BLITTER_COUNT ? what are those enums :)
13:36:36 <TrueBrain> SmatZ: fonsinchen wants to split up zooms in 2 categories: 1 side smallmap, the other side blitters
13:36:47 <TrueBrain> so that is why I suggest to name them as such too :p
13:40:11 <tdev> <tdev> fonsinchen, thanks for working on the smallmap zoom patch :D
13:40:13 <tdev> <tdev> i created that bug ticket years ago :p
13:52:13 <Chruker> Are there any of the content on bananas that enable the tourist passengers?
13:52:36 <Belugas> i guess you are talking of TTRS
13:54:11 <planetmaker> TTRS, I think, doesn't have tourists.
13:56:51 <Chruker> the ECS Town thingy seems to have it, thanks
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14:00:13 <Chruker> Is it the same george?
14:01:23 *** TheStarLion has joined #openttd
14:03:21 <Chruker> btw. who is coding the bananas site?
14:04:16 <Chruker> you get an A for effort :-)
14:04:40 <planetmaker> or a D for copying work of others :-P
14:05:01 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd
14:05:10 <planetmaker> can you prove you didn't just copy what was said above? ;-)
14:11:20 <Chruker> hmmm, weird the Content Download window from the main menu, sometimes fail to load the content list.
14:12:39 <planetmaker> fonsinchen, do you have, btw, already an updated station_gui patch by chance?
14:13:00 <planetmaker> hm... I guess not. Last commit there 3 days ago.
14:27:30 <TrueBrain> what is it lately that makes people join+leave in minutes?
14:27:45 <TrueBrain> most of them on a fairly regular base
14:27:56 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: TheStarLion was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 2 days, 3 hours, 29 minutes, and 14 seconds ago: <TheStarLion> somehow, I don't think even the most efficiant coding would manage that
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14:45:51 <Belugas> # Lots of people talk and few of them know
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14:52:18 <fonsinchen> planedmaker, what kind of update? the performance of EstimateDestinations? no
14:57:09 *** oskari89 has joined #openttd
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15:09:25 <planetmaker> fonsinchen, no, I thought you had a repo or branch with skoz(?) improved station build gui, too. I might be wrong, though
15:09:32 <planetmaker> I just went by the name :-)
15:10:41 * TrueBrain waves hello to frosch123
15:11:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r16916 /trunk/src/saveload/afterload.cpp: -Fix (r16909): station acceptance was reset after game load
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15:22:20 <Liza> goodie, finaly station reset after game load, so anying beeing bugged by a wrong acceptane after save was loaded
15:22:32 <Liza> hence i dont play single player
15:22:46 <Liza> cant wait for next patch :)
15:24:39 <Liza> why do you suggest that?
15:25:14 <SmatZ> Liza: your sentence was looking like you took words from the commit message, mixed them and interleaved them with some random words
15:25:26 <Liza> why do you suggest that?
15:25:43 <Liza> no iam not a bot, i was just saying i cant wait til the patch gets downloadable
15:25:59 <Liza> sometimes cargo acceptance in towns are different when i load
15:26:03 <SmatZ> r16909 was commited after yesterday's nightly
15:26:09 <SmatZ> so you shouldn't be affected by that bug
15:26:11 <Liza> sorta annoying when i have tons of trains sending cargo
15:26:39 <Liza> i only play during daytime
15:26:56 <SmatZ> what revision are you using?
15:26:59 <KenjiE20> liza is rather too close to elisa for my liking
15:27:05 <Liza> im playing whit the install package ;)
15:27:28 <fonsinchen> planetmaker, I don't have such a repo
15:27:39 <Liza> i havent played ottd for too long, im actualy quite new
15:27:47 <SmatZ> there will be that fix included :)
15:28:17 <SmatZ> but you weren't affected by that bug
15:28:21 <SmatZ> so you won't notice anything
15:28:29 *** Svish|eee is now known as Svish
15:29:24 <Liza> ah i was wondering, how often can trains breakdown?
15:29:32 <Liza> im playing on hard of corse
15:29:36 <SmatZ> depends on their reliability
15:29:41 <KenjiE20> whenever they feel like it
15:29:42 <Liza> i mean how often is possible
15:29:49 <Liza> directly after it recovered by a second?
15:29:49 <KenjiE20> usually in the worst possible spot :)
15:30:05 <Liza> or is it checked per minute?
15:30:27 <KenjiE20> in theory it could probably breakdown immeadiately
15:30:40 <KenjiE20> but that's probably more a sign to replace the train than anything else
15:30:41 <Liza> realy?, whit 0 reliability it cant move?
15:30:57 <Liza> so you just have to send another train to crash it destrying it
15:31:05 <KenjiE20> <KenjiE20> In theory
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15:32:21 <Liza> im playing on hard, and i barely got funds and my trains are breakdowning alot
15:32:44 <SmatZ> like, one day + random value
15:33:00 <KenjiE20> check they can service properly
15:34:09 <Liza> oh another problem i seem to have lately, is that trains sometimes while loading on a station suddenly go into waiting for free path or something
15:34:20 <Liza> i forgot message that displays in yellow or orange
15:34:40 <SmatZ> you are changing signals around the station while there are trains
15:34:54 <Liza> but i were building sub lines
15:35:02 <Liza> longer out, but not changeing anything remotely close to station
15:35:10 <SmatZ> they are probably waiting for free path to leave the station
15:35:25 <SmatZ> or you don't have path from that station to next station
15:35:45 <Liza> well it happends alot after i started useing the search for free path before station
15:35:59 <Liza> of corse i place a new one after station, iv tried by spaceing them bit from station
15:36:02 <Liza> in case i placed em too close
15:36:10 <Liza> doesnt seem to make a difference
15:36:13 <volta> i there, i'd like to report a *bug*, but i'm too lazy to register at the tasklist website
15:36:35 <Liza> its ok, ill investigate bit more, its just happening bit often, i didnt notice earlyer, but i ran out of money because of it
15:36:49 <Liza> and had to start over, train never left station, and was alone on track
15:36:50 <volta> and i'm not sure if this bug has already been reported
15:37:38 *** DaleStan is now known as Guest135
15:37:39 <SmatZ> if it was that evident bug, it would be most likely reported already
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15:37:51 <Liza> well it happend alot but it seem random to when
15:38:04 <Liza> sometimes just got to stations other at mid % when loading up
15:38:15 <Liza> its sorta hard to notice cus the % above train still shows
15:39:01 <SmatZ> (but games saved in 0.7.2-RC2 won't load in 0.7.1)
15:39:06 <Liza> thats too risky, i cant afford useing a unsafe build that can blow up my computor
15:39:18 <volta> i'm sending an old train (21 of 20yrs) to the depot, auto-renew is enabled; the train is renewed inside the depot, but no message appears that it has arrived there
15:40:33 <Belugas> [11:39] <Liza> thats too risky, i cant afford useing a unsafe build that can blow up my computor <--- we're not spreading viruses
15:40:41 <DaleStan> <Liza> thats too risky, i cant afford useing a unsafe build that can blow up my computor <-- because there's some guarantee somewhere that 0.7.2 won't?
15:40:48 <Belugas> and for what it's worth, we never blew any computger since r1
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15:41:05 <SmatZ> 0.7.2-RC2 should have significantly less bugs than 0.7.1
15:41:19 <Liza> yea i can wait til it becomes normal installer :P
15:41:28 <Liza> it only happends when i use the new signals anyway
15:41:42 <Liza> they also seem to pick some odd paths if used at more lenghty rails
15:42:01 <SmatZ> then your network is broken
15:42:03 <Liza> even if the correct path was on track next to
15:42:12 <Liza> the game is still running
15:42:18 <Liza> i commented on it and had another player check the track
15:42:30 <SmatZ> train chooses dead end path only if it can't find normal path
15:42:31 <Liza> he dunno why the train went on the 2nd rail that was unfinished
15:42:44 <Liza> the first track left up to station it was suppose to go to
15:42:58 <Liza> it didnt happend when i placed the signals more frequently
15:43:16 <Belugas> Liza, when SmatZ talks about broken network, he means your TRAINS NETWORK, not your COMPUTER network
15:43:30 <Liza> my bad i tought you were talking about the signals in game
15:43:52 <Liza> ;_; didnt mean to think that you were talking about that
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15:44:37 <Liza> err, actualy i read that message wrong
15:44:44 <Liza> i was talking about my rail lines in game
15:44:49 <Liza> when useing the 2 new signaltypes
15:45:16 <planetmaker> and SmatZ probably correctly suggests that your network and / or signaling leaves much to improve.
15:45:19 <Liza> what did belugas mean? the lines above i talked about rails and lines..?
15:45:26 <Belugas> we are confused by your confusion been really confused
15:45:28 <Liza> the game is still running
15:45:28 <planetmaker> Otherwise trains wouldn't travel the "wrong" track
15:45:47 <Liza> the lines are pretty much the same exept i swapped out the signals to the old ones
15:45:56 <Liza> to avoid both the bug and pathfinding odditys
15:46:22 <Liza> loading bug \ pathfinding odditys downright bad or deadend paths
15:46:33 <Liza> where the exit where its suppose to go, it just goes another way and loops a station
15:46:35 <planetmaker> The library is still the same. I only replaced Orwin Wells by Walt Disney
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15:46:39 <Liza> when another train just passes it by
15:47:33 <fjb> Did you check the orders of that train?
15:47:38 <KenjiE20> Warning: Train KenjiE20 is lost
15:47:47 <planetmaker> good point, fjb :-)
15:47:59 <Liza> i make a train i click where it loads from and where it goes to
15:48:35 <Liza> and all trains share same unload spot
15:48:40 <Liza> i havent built any other industry to go to
15:48:52 <planetmaker> which reminds me on an old joke: Mother angry at wally: didn't I tell you to watch the milk cooking? - Yes, I did! It was exactly 12:38 when it boiled so it came over the rim of the pot...
15:49:44 <planetmaker> badly translated, I'd say :-)
15:49:50 <fjb> You could show us some screenshots or post a savegame somewhere so we could see your network.
15:50:06 <Liza> and game is still running
15:50:20 <Liza> its the goal speedy akoz town builder server
15:50:36 <planetmaker> which is a heavily patched and modified server
15:50:59 <Liza> i did notice its nice features of !reset and other goodies
15:51:04 <planetmaker> but then you should desync :-P
15:51:06 <KenjiE20> and has 15thousand ! in it's name
15:51:46 * fjb avoids every server with a ! in its name.
15:52:00 * Akoz scrolls up to see what the trouble is
15:52:01 * planetmaker uses servers with # in its name, though :-)
15:52:12 <planetmaker> Akoz, I guess there's no trouble at all :-)
15:52:36 <Liza> maybe Akoz servers are dangerusly bugged giveing a false gameplay experience?
15:52:44 <fjb> The name shows the attitude of the admins.
15:53:21 <Liza> well i do admit the admins on that server kicks before warning :x
15:53:35 <planetmaker> that's fair enough :-P
15:53:40 <Liza> and the server rules isnt exacly followed by most, and its noticeable that new rules that doesnt show on list are in effect
15:54:11 <Liza> like in beginning when you cant afford a long track, and your forced to build then sell to build rest of line to get train to station
15:54:17 <Liza> then you sell train to buy it back at start
15:54:25 <Liza> that was kick reson for me the first time
15:54:42 <Liza> i checked rules, nothing that suggest that was not allowed, and i learned that in that server
15:55:05 <Liza> iv only played for like 3 days :P
15:58:25 <Liza> where does ottd save screenshots
15:58:56 <KenjiE20> next to the config your using, so probably install dir, or mydocs/openttd
15:59:40 <Liza> got buncha nice screenshots from Akoz server from regular players ;)
16:00:43 <Liza> thats if my default upload site works :(
16:04:54 <volta> so? any comment on my report?
16:06:01 <planetmaker> volta, it would need a proper report. I haven't experienced it, but I never looked for it either.
16:06:23 <planetmaker> Make an entry at flyspray and attach a savegame which shows that behaviour.
16:07:19 <planetmaker> also that's the only way to make sure that the persons who can deal with it will actually see it.
16:07:46 <KenjiE20> searching for a similar/exisiting might be a good idea too
16:15:28 <Liza> if akoz goes to his server right now and look at people starting, the players there now are useing the trick send train and sell on delivery rebuy
16:15:35 <Liza> it seem to be used commonly
16:16:54 <planetmaker> Akoz, do the servers have a webpage?
16:17:05 *** SmatZ is now known as Guest136
16:17:10 <Liza> but i play on his town server only
16:17:21 <Liza> the other ones starts out in future, so its not much fun
16:17:34 <Liza> yea i was wondering that too
16:17:42 <Liza> anyway the town server starts out good :)
16:18:12 <Liza> and 5000 people should be changed to 10000
16:18:18 <Liza> everyone does 5000 before 1980
16:18:22 <Liza> starting at 1974 or something
16:18:32 <Akoz> that's the "easy" server
16:18:39 <Akoz> go play on the citybuilder one. the goal there is 15k
16:18:51 <planetmaker> Akoz, ok. Because it's anything but easy to find. I figured somehow they are, but...
16:18:52 <Liza> anyway future so you start whit maglev
16:19:20 <Akoz> I know p. it'll be added to the ingame info stuff once rasco can be arsed :p
16:19:53 <planetmaker> e.g. especially on those websites you just gave there's no description of the rules used whatsoever
16:20:39 <Akoz> Commands | Rules | Scoring | Speedy 4 | Forum | Scores
16:20:58 <Liza> Akoz 4fun breaks alot of them rules
16:21:10 <Liza> i got screenshots where he blocked off a town and destryed all houses before releaseing it
16:21:10 <Akoz> then come get me when he does. Im here :)
16:21:16 <Liza> i got screenshots of it :P
16:21:37 <Liza> i also got screenshots where he massed traintracks around my stationsin random fasion to prevent me to compete whit him on his factorys
16:21:39 <Akoz> theres also usually admins on at least one of the normal speedy servers depending on time of day
16:21:48 <Liza> i was kicked by one today
16:21:53 <Liza> by useing a trick everyone seem to use
16:22:58 *** Guest136 is now known as SmatZ
16:23:22 <planetmaker> Ok, then let's rephrase: The layout of that wiki page is anything but intuitive.
16:23:23 <Liza> and as far as rules, i typed rules ingame to see them
16:23:35 <planetmaker> I don't expect the most important links kinda hiding in the middle of the page.
16:23:39 <Liza> also admin or gm didnt give warnings
16:23:40 <planetmaker> They need to be in a menu
16:23:53 <planetmaker> on the left hand side
16:23:56 <Liza> i rejoined and had to ask what i had done wrong
16:23:57 <Akoz> fortunately it's none of my doing :p
16:24:10 <Liza> your admins in that case arnt picked carefully >.<
16:24:30 <Liza> whenever i host 4-5 servers for spring, i only allow people i know that will do the rules correctly
16:24:33 <Akoz> if you break "obvious" rules there are no point in warning
16:24:51 <Liza> i typed rules before doing anything
16:25:02 <Liza> ingame rules doesnt say anything about it and as i said everyone was doing it thats how i learned it
16:25:03 <planetmaker> Liza, however an admin behaves, some people will always consider it wrong
16:25:08 <Liza> if you join your server now
16:25:11 <Liza> theres 2 players doing it
16:25:12 <Akoz> obvious being blocking another player purposely, killing another players city in citybuilding mode, using money cheats etc
16:25:29 <Liza> well 4fun does those things u mentioned now, blocking and kill city
16:25:33 <planetmaker> Akoz, what's a "money cheat"? :)
16:25:46 <Akoz> using the quardouble payment upon unload
16:25:59 <Akoz> you can get 350% for each train you unload
16:26:03 <Liza> i got screenshots if you got a place i can upload to
16:26:07 <planetmaker> ah... a bug fixed in trunk :-)
16:26:20 <Akoz> found and reported by yours truly
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16:27:09 <Liza> also theres a newbie killer oil refinery in game
16:27:16 <Liza> where you think your in range to unload but not at all :P
16:27:25 <Liza> its destryed my company many times
16:27:26 <Akoz> yes.. been there, done that
16:28:03 <Liza> theres a guy who has done that mistake whit oil refinery
16:28:09 <Liza> same guy who left just now :P
16:28:15 <Liza> who was gona do the sell train buy train
16:29:33 <Sacro> ah not one i go on / admin
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16:30:31 <planetmaker> Akoz, the patches or so are not publicly available by chance?
16:30:47 <planetmaker> I mean... basically the idea to offer competitive servers is a very good one :-)
16:31:26 <Liza> i like how you setup the city claiming and such
16:31:28 <planetmaker> well, that's the citybuilder goal patch. The others run the same?
16:31:43 <Liza> but it has some problems and thats when people build long lines trough your town
16:31:46 <planetmaker> I just wonder :-) Indeed I read that thread somewhat.
16:31:47 <Akoz> the other speedy servers you mean?
16:32:09 <Akoz> the plan is to make post it when rasco finishes cleaning his code a bit
16:32:37 <Akoz> but its quite messy code all of it
16:33:03 <Liza> no doupt he will build near me and try to ruin everything as much as he can :P
16:33:13 <Liza> as i said i got plentyfull of screenshots of where he destrys, blocks and such
16:33:15 <Akoz> competition is encouraged liza
16:33:25 <Liza> yes, he owned full map, i had one station
16:33:29 <Akoz> and for some reason I doubt its without reason he is after
16:33:51 <Liza> 2nd time i had 2 water places on one station and had just started sending trains out when he started building on them
16:34:06 <planetmaker> Akoz, it'd be great, if probably parts could be taken out and prepared as separate patch, e.g. as an official game ending goal or so - in order to make it trunk-worthy :-)
16:34:07 <Liza> that was when he OWNED the whole map pretty much, not giveing me a chance to start
16:34:29 <Liza> not to mention the time he destryed the whole town i started setting up operations too
16:34:43 <Liza> that i have screenshots of that he bought the land of the whole town
16:34:58 <Liza> before i set a house in it of corse but i had put a station in it and was out of money.. was gona send water to town
16:35:20 <Liza> bought up, destryed ALL houses
16:36:04 <planetmaker> Akoz, and maybe it's an idea to also run the servers using AP+ or so and connect them to IRC - or are they even?
16:36:04 <Liza> hes useing the train sell method
16:36:18 <Liza> 4fun now is breaking the rules
16:36:28 <Liza> 1 stations ending whit a depo
16:36:33 <Liza> gee, i wonder what hes gona do
16:36:39 <Liza> by 1 stations i mean 1x1
16:36:43 <Belugas> anyone can translate whatever Liza is saying? too many words i cannot read
16:36:59 <Belugas> no, better write properly
16:37:26 <Liza> you buy a train send it to a 1x1 station, load full send to other station, unload get money instant send it to depo at the back of that station its also 1x1 in lenght. sell train buy new at start
16:37:40 <Liza> servers up, its the akoz town, find 4fun, watch him now ;)
16:38:09 <Liza> hes on south side of map
16:38:12 <Sacro> that's quite a nifty trick
16:38:20 <Liza> and if you check wiki, agains the rules ;)
16:38:28 <planetmaker> Liza, it was a kind request to drop l33t spe4k and use proper punctuation.
16:38:35 <Liza> sorry, im not english :(
16:38:44 <planetmaker> And look at the top of the channel list... he might mean it :-)
16:38:51 <Belugas> so, most of us are not either
16:39:08 <Liza> but im typeing as best i can in english
16:39:10 <planetmaker> yes, but you know that it's "it's loading" and not "its loading" etc pp
16:39:27 <planetmaker> and whit 4funs hes gona
16:39:35 <Liza> i dont have a , up button
16:39:48 <planetmaker> Of course you do have an apostrophe.
16:40:01 <Liza> never seen one on a norwegian keyboard
16:40:27 <Belugas> looks like they don't have question mark either ^_^
16:40:52 <Akoz> its right next to on your keyboard
16:41:08 <Akoz> then you dont have a normal keyboard
16:41:14 <Liza> above and next to i got ^^~
16:41:15 <planetmaker> And Liza, I'm sure Norwegian uses the apostrophe in some cases, too.
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16:41:46 <Akoz> the link planetmaker gave is the layout of a normal norwegian keyboard
16:42:11 <Liza> that doesnt look like my keyboard
16:42:16 <Liza> do internett search on a4 keyboard
16:42:44 <Akoz> there is no keyboard coming without '
16:42:55 <Akoz> unless its some weird minilaptop with special function keys to type it
16:42:57 <planetmaker> ^^ indeed. It's even part of ASCII
16:43:08 <Liza> i see the button on my laptop
16:43:08 <planetmaker> Akoz, even then I cannot imagine.
16:43:13 <Belugas> ever saw a numeric only keyboard?
16:43:16 <Liza> keyboard is different on it
16:43:29 <Liza> Akoz are you on your town server?
16:44:55 <Akoz> planetmaker: do you know if anyone released the patch that disables train selling if the train got profit and is less than 1 year old?
16:45:07 <planetmaker> not that I know of, Akoz
16:45:23 <Akoz> I've seen it implemented on several servers
16:45:29 <Liza> well i was instant kicked when i did that whiout knowing, and i was just doing what most other people do in game
16:45:44 <Akoz> should be easy to implement I guess
16:45:47 <planetmaker> you repeat yourself, Liza :-P
16:46:23 <planetmaker> something like if (profit > 0) && (age < oneyear) continue;
16:46:24 <Liza> Akoz watched, 4fun still plays, and i got overabundant of screenshots here of what else he does
16:47:46 <Liza> oh well looks like 4fun is gona sell another train ;)
16:50:12 <Liza> i sorta figured he knew Akoz
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16:53:02 <Liza> yea, he was treatening me alot earlyer
16:53:02 <Liza> when i started building competitioning against him when i was given a fair chance at same factory
16:53:02 <Belugas> google translate has died
16:53:02 <Liza> hmm, was that the treatening word..?
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16:53:51 <Belugas> that and earlyer, sorta
16:53:59 <Belugas> but i guess i'm a little picky today
16:54:02 <Liza> how do i type them correctly?
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16:54:28 <Belugas> well.. depends what you mean
16:54:29 <planetmaker> earlier and sort of
16:54:36 <Belugas> what did you mean with sorta?
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16:55:04 <planetmaker> Belugas, that's the same thing like "gonna", I think - or along the same lines
16:55:12 <planetmaker> Might be even in dictionaries
16:55:26 <Belugas> ok... so a little advice, forget the slang language, the shortcuts and all.
16:55:31 <Belugas> planetmaker, not sure abour that...
16:56:04 * planetmaker 's quite sure about it :-) Or... I'm sorta sure about it :-P
16:56:07 <Belugas> thing is, Liza, if you wnt to learn a language, do not start by the defaults ;)
16:56:28 <Akoz> aye let's go back to ... sorry *starts over* let us go back to full sentences without aphostrophs
16:56:31 * Belugas picks up Webster's dico
16:56:49 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16917 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: fix some GCC 4.5 'case X is not in enum Y' warnings
16:57:08 <Liza> also isnt 1337(ieet) speak more whit symbols and numbers?
16:57:36 *** MizardX- is now known as MizardX
16:57:45 <Akoz> is there any point reporting a bug in a function if the function is currently never called in a way causing the bug?
16:57:49 <planetmaker> if you ask me, "sorta" is fine, though slang.
16:58:02 <planetmaker> Akoz, sure. Just report it :-)
16:58:29 <Liza> well ill try speaking the english you guy,s speak here.
16:58:32 <planetmaker> call it hidden or whatever. I've seen those. Not sure though whether it was "fixed".
16:59:39 <planetmaker> And, Liza , people usually don't mind honest mistakes. They happen. Most people here aren't native speakers.
17:00:08 <Liza> in case you were wondering about my missing keys >.>
17:01:54 <Liza> i don,t see the keyboard layout on the website you sent link for on norwegian keyboard,s
17:03:11 <planetmaker> I don't expect Austrian companies to sell Norwegian keyboards :-P
17:03:27 <planetmaker> But expect Austrian keyboards to posses an apostrophe key, too
17:03:57 <Liza> well it was the cheepest keyboard i could find
17:04:27 <Liza> so i could afford to buy pc part,s that matter
17:05:07 <planetmaker> Liza, plural "s" is not needed to separate from words :-)
17:05:26 *** markk is now known as Markk
17:05:28 <Liza> nono, it,s a top , just think of my , as upside down
17:05:53 <glx> I'm quite sure you have apostroph on your keyboard
17:06:16 <planetmaker> An apostrophe is used in English when possession is indicated (the house's door) or when something is left out "it's not clear" = "it is not clear"
17:06:20 <KenjiE20> what pm means is 'parts' is not possessive, and doesn't need '
17:06:30 <Liza> maybe if i click alt and the numpad number,s i can possibly hex it out
17:08:07 <planetmaker> that might work. But I'm 99.5% sure there's an easier way.
17:08:18 <Liza> i guess, i could copypaste it
17:08:24 <planetmaker> Maybe left of 1 or above one number or alike
17:08:41 <planetmaker> or somewhere between Enter and the "usual" keys.
17:08:52 <Liza> it seem removed for the largening of enter
17:09:05 <Liza> its quite usefull as iv never missed enter when useing my lilfinger for pushing enter
17:09:23 <Liza> im typeing quite quickly on this keyboard :)
17:09:56 <glx> I hope you'll never have to code :)
17:10:07 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
17:10:19 <planetmaker> glx, or type a French text.
17:11:12 <KenjiE20> according to the MS OSK the ' is listed above the CR
17:11:23 <planetmaker> I guess if ' is missing the other accents might be missing, too :-)
17:11:47 <KenjiE20> in both layout modes
17:13:54 <Akoz> I can type * too.. do I get a cookie?
17:14:11 <Liza> that's unfair, i typed * first i should get two cookies!
17:14:15 * KenjiE20 steals Akoz' cookies
17:14:15 <glx> ' should be on the same key than *
17:15:15 <Sacro> I pulled a bank cashier once
17:15:16 <Sacro> Took her back home and got down to it but I found I was in the red, so I did her in arrears instead.
17:16:15 * Sacro whistles nonchalently and heads back to #tycoon
17:16:34 <Liza> is that a dirty channel?
17:16:40 <Prof_Frink> In 'er ears? You're into aural?
17:32:48 <nicfer> Akoz: I have two problems in your 'city' server
17:33:09 <nicfer> one, somebody entered my passworded company and changed the password
17:33:20 <Liza> the password was password?
17:33:33 <Liza> i use that password in game :P
17:33:33 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd
17:33:39 <Liza> nobody has guessed my password
17:34:05 <nicfer> last night I've played a game there
17:34:22 <nicfer> then someone entered the company and changed my password
17:34:30 <nicfer> UnderBuilder Transport
17:34:44 <Liza> hmm, no iv had problems writeing in my own password thats password when trying to rejoin
17:34:56 <Liza> i dunno if its a caps lock problem or hit shift if it is case sensitive
17:34:56 <Akoz> shared your password with anyone recently?
17:35:01 <Liza> but sometimes i just cant join a team
17:35:09 <Liza> whit a password that i know the password of
17:35:22 <nicfer> maybe the password were autocleaned
17:35:26 <Akoz> I haven't modified that part of the code (or at least I think not) so theres no reason why he should be able to join your company without typing the correct password if one was set
17:36:08 <Liza> iv had problems whit people when people ask to join my team that they are unable to get inn
17:36:10 <Akoz> the only bug I know of is that password change packets sometimes gets rejected, meaning your password change doesnt go through causing problems for whoever you are giving your pw to to join your team
17:36:25 <nicfer> and then the other joined with the password-less company
17:36:53 <nicfer> do companies lose password after time in your server
17:37:07 <Akoz> no. they get reseted completely the moment they time out
17:37:08 <nicfer> or they get autocleaned before?
17:37:31 <nicfer> can you check me what's the current password for it?
17:38:22 <Akoz> no.. but I can move you into the company since noone is using it
17:38:27 <Akoz> then you can set it yourself
17:38:49 <nicfer> also, I can't even observe the server
17:39:01 <nicfer> it says: error while loading multiplayer map
17:46:07 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r16918 /trunk/src/lang/ (13 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
17:46:07 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:07 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 1 changes by arnaullv
17:46:07 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: czech - 71 changes by SmatZ
17:46:07 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 8 changes by Yexo
17:46:09 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: english_US - 5 changes by agenthh
17:46:09 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: esperanto - 3 changes by LaPingvino
17:52:54 *** NightKhaos has joined #openttd
18:04:49 <Yexo> TrueBrain: I really like how WT3 works :)
18:04:57 <Yexo> it makes translating easy
18:05:23 <TrueBrain> Yexo: nice to hear :)
18:06:04 *** DephNet[Paul] has joined #openttd
18:28:41 *** krushia has joined #openttd
19:11:06 * Chruker is starting to get curious to see how WT3 works
19:11:39 <Yexo> just see for yourself at translator.openttd.org
19:11:57 <Yexo> actually I forgot to report a wt3 bug :p
19:12:24 <Yexo> TrueBrain: when you're nog logged in, then go to login from the wt3 page, you log in, then end up on www.openttd.org/en/edit <- wrong subdomain
19:12:45 <TrueBrain> will fix, some day :p
19:12:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16919 /trunk/src/ (52 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: unify some more StringID w.r.t. their naming
19:13:04 <TrueBrain> (you should not be redirected at all, but some browsers do, for some odd reason)
19:21:27 <Liza> driver killed in collition whit train?
19:21:34 <Liza> doesnt he jump out when he sees the train
19:21:48 <TrueBrain> yes, but while walking away, some passenger shot him for being so stupid
19:21:49 <Yexo> maybe he jumped straight into the train
19:22:06 <Liza> i pay like 600 credit a month for that bussdriver
19:22:21 <Liza> he was basicly rich enough to buy a new buss every year :x
19:22:43 <Belugas> naaa.. real reason is that no one painted a picture of him running off the truck. So none coded his escape
19:26:40 <TrueBrain> too many undocumented shit ...
19:26:52 <TrueBrain> and VGA driver is so hard to program ... so many IO communication ...
19:27:12 <TrueBrain> the good news: I have a screen of dune2 :p
19:27:21 <TrueBrain> then it crashes, but I at least have a screen :)
19:27:33 <Liza> dune could possibly be programed in ottd
19:27:43 <TrueBrain> Belugas: yeah, even more .. suprising, not? :)
19:28:30 <Belugas> naaaa... not at all... come on here, my big fluffy bear, and let me hug you
19:28:56 * TrueBrain tickles Belugas and runs
19:30:21 <TrueBrain> the whole day I spend on figuring out ins and outs of DOS .. I am toast!
19:30:38 <Belugas> What Truebrain Fluffy
19:30:56 <Belugas> DOS was not really designed for graphics...
19:31:10 <Belugas> in fact, it was not raelly designed for much
19:31:22 *** TrueBrain has joined #openttd
19:31:27 <TrueBrain> crashing IRC is fun!
19:31:53 <TrueBrain> Belugas: it is not the graphics part that is my problem ... DOS itself is just ... well .. the specs says it sets only CX, but in the meantime, it also sets AX
19:31:59 <TrueBrain> and apps use that :s
19:32:14 <Chruker> <Belugas> DOS was not really designed for graphics... <<< more like graphics evolved after DOS :-)
19:32:22 <Sacro> TrueBrain: well, erm, why
19:32:52 <TrueBrain> Sacro: when things work, it is fun :)
19:33:01 <TrueBrain> when things don't work ... it is an endless pit of errors and problems
19:33:33 * Yexo spend the day looking at the same code files copied over and over with some little changes
19:33:45 <TrueBrain> Yexo: so you are toast too ;)
19:34:08 * Prof_Frink blasts Sacro with a Heat Ray
19:35:17 *** Azrael- has joined #openttd
19:37:54 <Sacro> The G-Force, a group of highly-trained covert guinea pig spy agents, is the only team that can save the world from an evil billionaire and his army of robot appliances.
19:39:03 <Belugas> TrueBrain, i'm sure you do enjoy it a whole lot ;) You crave for challenges !
19:39:19 <TrueBrain> but I am now getting to that point I am annoyed too much
19:39:28 <TrueBrain> and spend so much time on it, that it can't be considered healty
19:39:31 <TrueBrain> without too much progress :p
19:40:05 <Belugas> you'd love mine... i cannot develop stuff on my station, i have to ship the library to a remote station, run the test, collect the logs, find out the problem, go to step a) until all is working
19:40:16 <planetmaker> Sacro: a pity are the strong jpg artefacts
19:40:19 <TrueBrain> Belugas: :s :s :s :s
19:40:35 <Belugas> TrueBrain, give it a few days off, be back and yuou'll have fun again :)
19:42:01 <Sacro> planetmaker: rather it be in PNG? :P
19:42:13 <Belugas> by the way, were you not supposed to have a recording device of some sort sooner or later?
19:42:14 <planetmaker> Sacro: less compression
19:42:16 <TrueBrain> well, I managed to get one app to work, so I guess I shouldn't complain ;)
19:42:29 <TrueBrain> Belugas: turns out: later :'(
19:42:35 <planetmaker> but having it in png doesn't hurt :-P
19:42:43 <TrueBrain> stupid stupid stupid fuck ups in this world :(
19:43:17 <TrueBrain> so I canceled my order, and now I am going to buy climbing shoes instead :p
19:43:52 <TrueBrain> I just need new ones :p
19:44:22 *** Antigon has joined #openttd
19:47:46 <Belugas> that rope is not to put around your neck
19:48:31 <TrueBrain> (haven't used a rope in almost a year now :p)
19:48:46 <Prof_Frink> TrueBrain is a blodderer!
19:50:12 <TrueBrain> which half do you have?
19:50:14 <TrueBrain> the left or right? :p
19:50:28 * Sacro wants to go climbing now :(
19:50:38 <TrueBrain> tomorrow I will be creating routes again :)
19:51:30 * Prof_Frink hopes to hear from Cap'n Jack soon.
19:51:47 <Prof_Frink> Should be going climbing/camping/bloddering on Dartmoor at the weekend.
19:52:46 <Prof_Frink> It'll be nice to climb something other than limestone
19:52:56 <Prof_Frink> welshdragon: Bouldering.
19:54:30 <Liza> i saved a hedgehog today, that had somhow goten itself stuck in the drain outside my house
19:59:12 <Sacro> bouldering isn't my thing
19:59:31 <TrueBrain> Sacro: for years it wasn't mine ;)
20:00:20 <TrueBrain> Google Search lies to me! :o
20:00:20 <Prof_Frink> Get my nuts out, bring some friends along
20:01:24 <Prof_Frink> Sacro: Which do you prefer: grabbing big jugs or fingering cracks?
20:01:53 <Sacro> it depends on what happens with my arse
20:02:06 <Sacro> i like fingering cracks if my arse has something to do
20:07:58 *** Nite_Owl has joined #openttd
20:09:11 <Belugas> or.. is mister Night?
20:09:22 <Belugas> no.. it's mister Nite_Owl!
20:10:12 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
20:10:22 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
20:10:30 *** ajohnsen has joined #openttd
20:10:49 *** ajohnsen has joined #openttd
20:11:15 <ajohnsen> Hi. Can i in some way increase the menu / the font?
20:12:50 <ajohnsen> which one is it to increase menu size?
20:13:06 <TrueBrain> you can only increase the size of the font
20:13:54 <Yexo> but don't complain about the many graphical glitches you'll get when you increase the font
20:14:08 <Yexo> if you use the nightlies it works correct for some windows, but with 0.7.x it does not
20:14:43 <ajohnsen> the problem is that i run a 1680x1050 screen and i can hardly target the menu items or read the text :)
20:15:02 <TrueBrain> use a lower resolution
20:15:27 <Belugas> set the resolution to 800x600 and then full screen
20:15:38 <Yexo> or wait for 0.8 and hope by that time all windows will resize properly
20:15:51 <ajohnsen> using linux - would hate to change the resolution....
20:16:17 <Belugas> well... we told you what to do in the mean time ;)
20:16:36 <Liza> two normal monitors not widescreen
20:16:56 <Yexo> two monitors on top of eachother?
20:16:59 <Liza> yea, i got a flatscreen 41' too but i have that on the other 3d card
20:17:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16920 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: shuffle some strings around to simplify looking up vehicle type specific strings for a specific message
20:17:22 <ajohnsen> Liza: can you read the text? :O
20:17:29 <Yexo> then your resolution is probably not 2048x3072, sould be more like 3072x2048 then
20:17:39 <Liza> 24' crt monitors of oldschool type
20:17:56 <Liza> i dont think they produce them anymore, but they were samsung syncmaster 1100ff
20:18:21 * Belugas still has a 19" crt at home as main screen and is very happy with it
20:19:50 <Prof_Frink> I have half a 196' rope.
20:20:01 <ajohnsen> great - can only run 1680x1050 in fullscreen mode. guess i'll wait a bit before playing the game :)
20:20:11 <ddfreyne> and the length of your small intestine is 20'
20:20:23 <Liza> new hd lcds are just 1940x1080 something max
20:20:38 <Liza> doesnt look they will get any larger in res than that even tought their size is larger than my regular monitors
20:20:47 <Liza> so i figured no point getting larger than 41'
20:20:56 <Liza> hmm 1920x1080 i think dunno about 1200
20:21:09 <Liza> i tought full hd was 1080
20:21:35 <LaSeandre> woah, 41 foot? impressive
20:21:45 <Sacro> LaSeandre: that's what all the ladies say
20:21:47 <Nite_Owl> stadium monitor I thought
20:21:58 * Prof_Frink builds a model of Stonehange to Liza's dimensions
20:22:00 <Liza> but whats the point if sound quality sucks
20:22:25 <Sacro> what kind of sound quality does an lcd have?
20:22:41 <Belugas> for good sound, choose Gibson LesPaul!
20:22:50 <Belugas> of Fender Stratocaster
20:22:53 * Sacro has 5.1 + THX + DD + DTS
20:23:14 <Belugas> ho.. and Marshall 50w, with 4 15" stack!
20:23:21 <OwenS> Sacro: DTS-ES Master Audio? :p
20:23:28 <LaSeandre> sacro: unless it has those stupid built-in "Back Left+Right" you sometimes get with computer LED monitors.
20:23:34 <Liza> Sound quality can only be bought trough cheep headsets
20:23:41 <Sacro> LaSeandre: heh, yeah, my lcd audio is beyond crap
20:23:54 <OwenS> My PC sound is 2.1 via amplifier ^^
20:23:54 <Sacro> 370W of sub though... mmmmmmmm
20:23:57 <TrueBrain> Belugas: you know your stuff ;)
20:24:11 <Belugas> TrueBrain, i dream of it every day :)
20:24:11 <OwenS> I'm planning on soon building a USB amplifier though
20:24:20 * LaSeandre has DD 7.1 on the Full HD TV, and 2.1 on the PC
20:24:46 <Sacro> a pacer sounds epic rattling along
20:24:46 <Nite_Owl> although Bose makes some decent PC speakers if you have the money
20:24:49 <LaSeandre> Sacro: was not my choice, tis my parents!
20:24:57 <Sacro> mine are logitech z-5500s
20:25:07 <Sacro> LaSeandre: 7 is alright, just lacking in source material
20:25:11 <TrueBrain> 5.1 set, decoder (DTS, DD, ....), fiber to game consoles and PC .. 32" HDReady TV ... I am a happy man :)
20:25:21 * Liza has intel extreme i7 3ghzx4, geforce ftw 295 sli, and ddr3x12gb :x so she can play ottd on max graphics
20:25:28 * Belugas does not have "speakers" linked to his pc. a stereo unit instead
20:25:38 <Belugas> going through a 16 channel mixer
20:25:39 <Liza> on all 3 screens at same time whiout lag!
20:25:41 <Sacro> what I want is a deltic engine for the proper noise
20:25:51 <Sacro> Liza: overkill springs to mind
20:25:52 <OwenS> My planned amplifier: 7.1 via USB audio, direct into the amplifier, at ~25W per channel. Considering how efficient it will be (It will be a pure class D amplifier), thats quite powerful :p
20:25:53 <TrueBrain> Belugas: I only have a nice fiber (which can carry what ever you like :p)
20:26:04 <Liza> Sacro i saved on buying cheep keyboard
20:26:11 <OwenS> TrueBrain: It can only carry what the other end can download :p
20:26:28 <TrueBrain> OwenS: yup; yet it can carry a lot :p
20:26:34 <TrueBrain> Belugas: yeah .. SPFID or what is it called :p
20:26:50 <Prof_Frink> Uuuuuuuuulllllllllllllllaaaaaaaaaaaaa...
20:27:04 <TrueBrain> bah, fixed a few more 'errors' in my DOS emulation layer ... yet still dune2 goes in (another) infinite loop :(
20:27:04 * frosch123 uses a >5 year old computer
20:27:08 <Liza> single page dimmer identifyer flager?
20:27:22 <TrueBrain> OwenS: avoids a stupid USB audio thing btw :p
20:27:22 <OwenS> Sony/Phillips Digital Interconnect Format
20:27:22 <glx> TrueBrain: still the same loop ?
20:27:28 <TrueBrain> glx: nope, on to the next!
20:27:35 <TrueBrain> this time it keeps on opening dune2.exe ....
20:27:46 <OwenS> TrueBrain: This is a custom USB audio device. Takes the 24-bit 192kHz PCM direct from the PC to the amplifier :p
20:28:29 <TrueBrain> OwenS: why bother? I have a nicer decoder which decodes .. well .. everything, and sends that to the amp :p
20:28:40 <TrueBrain> allows much more stuff to connect to your amp :)
20:29:15 <OwenS> TrueBrain: Because your amp more than likely then puts the audio through an analog-to-digital converter in order to generate PWM for it's amplifiers :p
20:30:17 <TrueBrain> euh .. my amp converts signal for my amp?
20:30:19 <TrueBrain> I only have one amp :p
20:30:46 <TrueBrain> pc -> decoder (pre-amp) -> amp .. first two full digital, last full analog :p
20:30:51 <Prof_Frink> But how many volts?
20:31:00 <OwenS> TrueBrain: Audio goes into decoder digital, comes out analog, goes into amp analog, gets converted to digital to drive Class-D amplifier, comes out analog again
20:31:18 <TrueBrain> w(h)at(t) is Joule per second?
20:31:32 <TrueBrain> I have no idea what my amp does
20:31:36 <OwenS> TrueBrain: At least it probably does unless you paid a fortune for it :p
20:31:42 <TrueBrain> I paid enough for it :)
20:32:09 <Prof_Frink> But why is a New ton so much less than an old Ton?
20:32:11 <OwenS> My design the digital-analogue-digital stage is cut out :p
20:32:14 <TrueBrain> and it makes enough noise ... can't git it past 50% without damaging my ears :'(
20:34:25 <Liza> just add noise canseling
20:35:01 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +q Liza!*@*
20:35:13 <TrueBrain> I guess it is right .. adding a noise filter does help
20:36:17 *** DorpsGek sets mode: -q Liza!*@*
20:37:26 <LadyHawk> that's so much easier than +b ~q:blablabla it's almost scary
20:37:37 <TrueBrain> the fun part, +q is not listed in most clients
20:37:41 <TrueBrain> so nobody will know in, say, 2 weeks :p
20:38:04 <TrueBrain> so true, it is scary ;)
20:38:06 <glx> TrueBrain: on some ircd, +q has more power than +o
20:38:14 <TrueBrain> glx: yup ... not here ;)
20:38:24 <TrueBrain> my client also says it is 'owner privileges'
20:38:37 <OwenS> Yeah, Konversation does here
20:38:49 <LadyHawk> setting someone owner doesnt involve a hostmask, so i assumed it was a silence ban
20:39:15 <LadyHawk> not many people know about those
20:39:33 <LadyHawk> nice way to confuse peeps
20:41:08 <glx> mode +h is not available either
20:41:49 <TrueBrain> ha, figured out what goes wrong with dune2: overlays :)
20:42:10 <TrueBrain> and nasty NASTY jumps ... using interrupts to jump to overlays .... NASTY I tell you
20:42:13 <glx> what are these overlays ?
20:42:22 <TrueBrain> DOS has little memory
20:42:31 <TrueBrain> so you put your program in pages of, say, 4096 bytes or what ever
20:42:40 <TrueBrain> when you need one, you load it in the memory
20:42:48 <TrueBrain> when you need another one, you load it over the same piece of memory
20:42:56 <TrueBrain> 20 overlay slots or what ever, and you are good to go
20:43:02 <glx> looks like cpc 6128 bankrams :)
20:43:27 <OwenS> Except in DOS they involve RAM copies :P
20:43:30 <TrueBrain> what it does now, is push all registers on the stack, load the overlay, jump there .. and on return recover it
20:44:30 * Belugas remembers overlays in old turbo pascal system of his
20:44:42 <TrueBrain> Borland made good use of it, yes
20:44:44 <Belugas> was such a breakthrough
20:45:19 <TrueBrain> problem is for me now, that the same address is reused with other code .. as I build a nice Just In Time compiler, it doesn't detect this new code, and the old code is executed :)
20:46:04 <Liza> your editing dune2 game?
20:46:36 <TrueBrain> but okay, I guess this is plenty of off-topic :p
20:46:39 <OwenS> TrueBrain: Memprotect regions which have been jit'd and then get the kernel to let you know when they're written to?
20:46:55 <TrueBrain> OwenS: problem is that I don't JIT on boundaries
20:46:55 <glx> TrueBrain: what was the topic ? ;)
20:47:42 <TrueBrain> I disabled the caching of JIT, and now it works :o :o :o :o
20:47:55 <OwenS> TrueBrain: Does it matter if you protect extra regions? Throwing away the code shouldn't be that expensive :p
20:48:05 <Belugas> ok, i'm useless now... getting home
20:48:13 <glx> of course without caching you don't have the problem
20:48:31 <TrueBrain> OwenS: well ... then I would be throwing away code ALL the time
20:48:44 <TrueBrain> glx: but without caching it takes 5 minutes for dune2 to get to the graphical screen :p
20:48:48 <TrueBrain> (instead of 10 seconds)
20:49:06 <TrueBrain> OwenS: a page is 4k, which is mostly where a DOS program runs in
20:49:25 <OwenS> TrueBrain: I thought they had 640k to work with? ;-)
20:49:31 <OwenS> OK, less because of DOS
20:49:38 <TrueBrain> but code inside the 4k block is called a lot
20:49:46 <glx> OwenS: they hack video memory ;)
20:50:00 <TrueBrain> throwing that away all the time ... is as efficient as disabling the cache I guess
20:50:44 <glx> maybe cache with page index
20:50:54 <TrueBrain> [EMU] [ INT10:10 ] Not Yet Implemented <- sigh ....
20:51:03 <TrueBrain> glx: there is nothing that indicates which overlay is loaded
20:51:10 <OwenS> TrueBrain: It can't be as bad as throwing away the cache
20:51:14 <TrueBrain> maybe I should make a CRC of the function, and see if it matches :s
20:51:53 <TrueBrain> OwenS: but I am looking for a more solid solution, if possible :)
20:51:54 <OwenS> At the very least it's a relatively easy implementation I would hope which doesn't add too much overhead to the JIT'd code
20:52:00 <tdev> TrueBrain: get me a copy of WT-? once its done pls :)
20:52:08 <OwenS> Solid is always great but often costs performance ;-)
20:52:13 <TrueBrain> tdev: will do :) I hope to start next week on the new version :)
20:52:30 <tdev> what do you want to code on it?
20:52:57 <TrueBrain> OwenS: well, what happens is this: first time you run an app, the JIT is attached. It indexes all calls and registers all functions. Then it makes a static compile of it, and you can run it without the JIT. Some functions will not be decoded, when that happens, you need to reattach the JIT
20:53:24 <TrueBrain> that is why the solution you suggest work only with JIT is fully attached .. when it is no longer attached, it will fail I am afraid ...
20:53:28 <TrueBrain> tdev: sorry, I don't understand the question?
20:54:12 <tdev> TrueBrain: whats the diff between the closed source(now) version and the next OS version?
20:54:14 <OwenS> TrueBrain: I doubt you would get a clean binary from an app for such a messy environment as DOS anyway
20:54:21 <TrueBrain> tdev: that it will be open source ;)
20:54:31 <TrueBrain> OwenS: you would be suprised ;)
20:55:02 <OwenS> And secondly if you do it's no longer a JIT binary ;-)
20:55:12 <TrueBrain> which is the aim :)
20:55:21 <TrueBrain> and even without the JIT, it should detect such overlay changes I guess
20:55:30 <TrueBrain> not sure though ... it is all a bit tricky ...
20:56:05 <tdev> TrueBrain: i have setup a test VM for it already :)
20:56:24 <TrueBrain> tdev: well, it will take a few days, maybe weeks, before I have anything solid
20:56:24 <tdev> you will host on google code?
20:56:40 <TrueBrain> so if you would like to help, that is always welcome
20:56:52 <TrueBrain> I first need to give the database model a good review .. it has its problems
20:57:09 <tdev> yup, i think collaboration has the best effect :)
20:57:22 <TrueBrain> OwenS: I first considered rewriting the memory I read with FFs or what ever
20:57:33 <TrueBrain> but apps tend to read opcodes to see what is loaded where :(
20:59:06 <OwenS> It's better than my "quick-n-easy" method... which involved transcoding the code slightly into a 16-bit segment and intercepting any INTs, segment loads, and such instructions
20:59:24 <OwenS> Well, converting them to calls to emulator code during the transcode
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20:59:29 <fonsinchen> grr. There is some hidden randomness in my linkgraph calculations and I'm too stupid to find it :(
20:59:53 <TrueBrain> OwenS: I don't follow, sorry?
21:00:43 <andythenorth> nfo question: articulated road vehicle consist - change the sprites of lead vehicle depending on load state of trailing vehicles (loaded / unloaded)...possible?
21:01:17 <andythenorth> ^^ sorry if being dumb and missing obvious, I've looked for varaction 2 or callbacks in the docs. I fell on my head earlier today and am feeling a bit...slow
21:01:41 <OwenS> TrueBrain: Read through the code, identifying instructions which do segment loads or call privileged instructions. They get replaced with calls to the emulator code. This code is placed in a 16-bit protected mode code segment. The other segment registers are also loaded with 16-bit PM segments, and the emulator adjusts them as needed
21:02:27 <TrueBrain> OwenS: yeah, the problem is identifying that code ;)
21:02:55 <TrueBrain> if I can identify it, I can do what you suggest, or something simular anyway
21:03:04 <TrueBrain> (I btw capture ALL things, so no problem)
21:03:07 <TrueBrain> just detecting it is tricky
21:03:23 <TrueBrain> in this case I know INT 3F does the swapping
21:03:25 <OwenS> JITing will probably be faster if you can, since 16-bit code runs slower
21:03:33 <TrueBrain> but .. that is how borland does it :p Not a general statement
21:03:54 <TrueBrain> all code is executed as 32bit :p
21:04:05 <TrueBrain> and 64bit if TCC would fix their bugs :(
21:04:21 <OwenS> I'd personally go LLVM for code gen :p
21:04:24 <glx> andythenorth: I think it's possible
21:04:34 <OwenS> Mine was a "quick and dirty and moderately fast method" :p
21:04:36 <TrueBrain> OwenS: I do codegen on the fly and compile it (JIT)
21:04:52 <TrueBrain> LLVM would still require GCC or what ever :p
21:04:55 <TrueBrain> TCC has a libtcc.a ;)
21:04:58 <TrueBrain> perfect for the job :)
21:05:02 <OwenS> Yes. And LLVM is both quite fast and beats GCC at generating code
21:05:07 <OwenS> Well, libllvm.so I think :p
21:05:10 <TrueBrain> yes, but LLVM doesn't make machine code
21:05:16 <TrueBrain> it doesn't do the end-stage
21:05:23 <TrueBrain> it makes intermediate code
21:05:29 <TrueBrain> (hence the llvm-gcc project)
21:05:45 <OwenS> LLVM-GCC uses GCC as a front end for C code to run in LLVM. LLVM has it's own codegen backends
21:05:55 <TrueBrain> show me your source! :)
21:06:06 <TrueBrain> last time I read it, LLVM doesn't generate arm, x86_64, ... code
21:06:29 <OwenS> "A compiler infrastructure - LLVM is also a collection of source code that implements the language and compilation strategy. The primary components of the LLVM infrastructure are a GCC-based C & C++ front-end, a link-time optimization framework with a growing set of global and interprocedural analyses and transformations, static back-ends for the X86, X86-64, PowerPC 32/64, ARM, Thumb, IA-64, Alpha, SPARC, MIPS and CellSPU
21:06:30 <OwenS> architectures, a back-end which emits portable C code, and a Just-In-Time compiler for X86, X86-64, PowerPC 32/64 processors, and an emitter for MSIL." www.llvm.org front page
21:07:13 <TrueBrain> (fuck, dune2 still doesn't show me anything graphical ... it hangs again on some infinite loop :S :( )
21:07:17 <TrueBrain> OwenS: hmm ... interesting ...
21:07:43 <TrueBrain> "LLVM is a low-level object code representation that uses simple RISC-like instructions" <- also llvm.org
21:08:00 <OwenS> Yeah. LLVM is a virtual machine with JIT and AOT compilers
21:08:20 <OwenS> Code generally goes GCC -> LLVM Bytecode -> LLVM AOT Compiler -> Optimized Output
21:08:39 <TrueBrain> OwenS: owh ... they told me GCC was on the other end ;)
21:08:51 <andythenorth> glx: yup, I *think* it should be possible. But I can't see an appropriate callback or varaction 2 :O
21:09:23 <OwenS> Apple use LLVM in their OpenGL stack. The JIT compiler either generates fast code to emulate features on cards which don't support them or discards said code on cards which do
21:09:55 <TrueBrain> then it might be worth to replace libtcc with libllvm
21:10:02 <TrueBrain> but either way, libtcc works fine in 32bit mode, so not that important
21:10:06 <Liza> what are we talking about :X
21:12:04 <Nite_Owl> conversation A: DOS coding (I Think) conversation B: NFO coding of articulated vehicles
21:12:07 <TrueBrain> argh .. from one problem straight into the other problem ... this is getting on my nerves :(
21:13:50 <Chruker> Have there been any attempts at adding subways to OpenTTD?
21:14:45 <TrueBrain> OwenS: anyway, tnx for the ideas :p If you have any more, they are welcome :) And if you are bored and want to program a full INT10 emulator, let me know :p (mwhahaha)
21:15:28 <OwenS> TrueBrain: I don't think I'm masochistic enough to try :p
21:15:45 <TrueBrain> I Thought that too when I started this project .. but slowly most DOS INTs are getting shape :p
21:15:53 <TrueBrain> including MODE4 of INT10
21:15:57 <TrueBrain> and now MODE13 .. if ever :p
21:17:49 <andythenorth> hmm...vehicle offset 3C in the savegame internals: cargo load. I *should* be able to get at that with an 80+ varaction. I'll need to do it for the whole consist...figuring that out is probably going to hurt...
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21:22:27 <TrueBrain> OwenS: now overthinking the whole situation .. I was wrong with one of my assumptions. If I would to keep a CRC of the function around, the static compiled version can give that to the JIT, and the JIT can still detect if a function changed on disk ...
21:22:54 <TrueBrain> oeh, whole new ideas fly in my head .. ghehe :)
21:23:28 <OwenS> TrueBrain: Sounds reasonable. I think it may be slightly faster to make the area read only first with mprotect, and use writes to it as a clue you need to check functions in it for changes
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21:23:34 <TrueBrain> I need the JIT to split out small files when it finds a new function, including the bytecode it is built from :)
21:23:53 <TrueBrain> OwenS: you are most likely right .. I will need to try that to see how many false positives it gives
21:24:06 <TrueBrain> (as doing that bookkeeping is not an easy job)
21:25:24 <TrueBrain> basicly what the JIT has to do, is to tell per function where a jumps lead to. In case of a non-register/memory jump, this mostly is simple (same for retf and stuff, but not always). Reigster jumps it just needs to logs the places it has seen ..
21:25:27 <TrueBrain> oeh, this is going to be pretty :)
21:28:19 <TrueBrain> first a good night sleep :)
21:28:39 <TrueBrain> OwenS: tnx again; if you are ever bored, I have other things that needs to be done on this project :p (MOUSE handling, KEYBOARD handling, .... :p)
21:28:43 <TrueBrain> if you are ever interested ... ;)
21:28:49 <TrueBrain> sorry about the offtopic ;)
21:29:02 <OwenS> TrueBrain: Maybe once some work is out of the way... maybe
21:29:41 <TrueBrain> OwenS: for the general idea: this project converts 16bit DOS code to plain C, compilable by a modern compiler, unrelated to the 16bit DOS code
21:29:48 <TrueBrain> where dune2 is my goal .. but not limited to :p
21:31:04 <Nite_Owl> Chruker: a few minor attempts, none successful - many, many suggestions
21:31:59 <tdev> TrueBrain: i can help you if you want-you have to say how
21:50:53 <planetmaker> hm... I have other code which I would like to see done that to, too, TrueBrain :-)
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22:27:05 <Chruker> Does vehicle group_ids stay the same across savegames?
22:28:28 <SmatZ> else network games would desync
22:30:07 <Chruker> it can change << can or cant?
22:32:03 <Chruker> Basicly I'm wondering if I can safely use groups to map vehicles to routes in the data my AI stores.
22:39:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say yes, but can't you use the group names instead?
22:41:00 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i don't understand this movie...
22:41:35 <Eddi|zuHause> "THX 1138"... my brother gave it to me...
22:43:14 <Chruker> group names... so simple, thank you :-)
22:43:23 <Chruker> here I was starring myself blind on the ids
22:44:00 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: Thats normal for George Lucas films I think =P
22:45:11 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16921 /trunk/src/ (65 files in 6 dirs): -Codechange: make it more clear what strings are related to road vehicles; only ROAD isn't always enough. Also unify the way of writing it.
22:45:51 <Eddi|zuHause> major challenge for WT3? :p
22:46:47 <Nite_Owl> That movie was Lucas' graduate thesis
22:47:28 <SmatZ> [00:28:11] <SmatZ> it can change
22:47:30 <SmatZ> [00:30:07] <Chruker> it can change << can or cant?
22:48:36 <Nite_Owl> post apocalyptic underground world where people are controlled by drugs and once man's attempt to break free from that world
22:50:32 <Eddi|zuHause> that much i got, but there are some serious plot jumps in there
22:51:09 <Nite_Owl> it was made on a very limited budget
22:53:33 <Nite_Owl> it does tend to seem to jump around a bit until you watch it a few times and understand what each part of the main character's journey represents
22:54:03 <Yrol> hello everys body and mind
22:54:49 <Yrol> (Nite_Owl) your topic, if i might ask?
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22:55:46 <Nite_Owl> just general blathering about the movie THX 1138
22:56:10 <Nite_Owl> which Eddi is watching for the first time
22:56:52 <Nite_Owl> I need to feed - later all
22:57:23 <Yrol> uuh the early robert duvall...nicer
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23:39:47 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16922 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: unduplicate some vehicle CMD_*s and move the setting of the error message to a single place
continue to next day ⏵
