IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2009-06-05
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07:06:11 <Alberth> there is no such thing as an ideal VCS
07:06:28 <dihedral> no - does not mean one cannot suck more than another
07:07:04 <dihedral> and eh... yes - i think there is such a thing as ideal - not perfect though :-P
07:08:25 <dihedral> z-MaTRiX, still sucks ^^
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07:10:16 <Alberth> maybe you should use a different work flow (and/or VCS :p )
07:10:32 <Alberth> z-MaTRiX: not worth the trouble, there are many alternatives that kind of work.
07:10:54 <z-MaTRiX> sure, you can write one too
07:11:42 <Alberth> no thank you, svn and hg are good enough for me :)
07:12:49 <dihedral> i am converting from cvs to svn
07:13:31 <Alberth> btw changing cvs is non-trivial, iirc the devs are heavily opposed to many changes. So much that OpenBSD started writing a new one, and svn got born.
07:13:48 <Alberth> converting should solve some of the problems :)
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07:24:03 <dihedral> converting IS my problem :-P
07:25:40 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: alberth * r16519 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Add: Prevent hiding of a window titlebar behind the status bar.
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07:26:07 <Alberth> people overestimate the value of history
07:27:03 <planetmaker> Alberth, that was irony, was it?
07:29:30 <Alberth> not really, how often do you lookup a change longer ago than say, 1 month?
07:29:52 <Rubidium> quite often actually
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07:30:40 <Rubidium> although the hg/git repositories don't go further back than r<there where we went to c++> IIRC
07:31:20 <Rubidium> oh, that was 'only' before the svn reimport
07:33:17 <dihedral> Alberth, it's a company - the history here is quite important ;-)
07:33:38 <planetmaker> Alberth, quite often here, too
07:34:00 <dihedral> after the conversion i have 25800 revs :-D
07:34:07 <dihedral> the entire process takes me about 8 hours
07:34:19 <dihedral> and that is just one of the projects :-P
07:34:23 <Alberth> that's a lot of coffee :)
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07:34:44 <planetmaker> when I try to pach things, or especially update older patches, it's THE thing to do to look through the history of what was done in order to understand the necessary modifications.
07:40:50 <dihedral> Alberth, it's even more when you think that i am still just preparing :-P
07:47:32 <Alberth> planetmaker: good to hear I don't write the commit messages for nothing :p
07:50:21 <planetmaker> Alberth, you definitely don't. I kinda use the hg log (the web one) for regular lecture :)
07:52:20 <Alberth> I tend to prefer 'hg view'. Going back more than a few revisions with the hg web-interface is an art I have not yet mastered.
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07:55:02 <Alberth> good luck with the conversion, see you all
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09:41:10 <fonsinchen> Are those debug messages documented anywhere? What is the usual way to increase the debug level, for example for "misc"? Of course I can just set it in my code, but I guess that's not how it's intended to be done. I've been wondering about this for a long time ...
09:47:33 <petern> or from the command line
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10:03:38 <Kage_Dragon> Finally got my first real patch working... Any C++ gurus want to critique it? :D
10:05:30 <Kage_Dragon> Filter by Trainset in the Build window
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10:08:21 <guru3> i'm not that great at c++, just anyline with 'guru
10:08:39 * guru3 fades back into obscurity
10:08:59 <Kage_Dragon> Not that I"m great at c++ either
10:10:19 <guru3> i specialize in php and obscure hacks
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10:55:14 <dihedral> Kage_Dragon, you are finished ey?
10:55:16 <dihedral> / TODO-> Set num_of_loaded_grfs to # of loaded GRFS
10:55:58 <dihedral> int trainset_filter_criteria; ///< Selected Trainset filter <- you indented with 'tab'
10:56:52 <dihedral> empty lines should not be indented
10:58:12 <dihedral> newgrf_names[trainset_filter_items] = "All"; <- hard coded string, use a string id instead so it's translateable
10:59:01 <dihedral> + for (int i = 0; i < (num_of_loaded_grfs + 3); i++){
10:59:01 <dihedral> + if (this->newgrf_names[i] == grf_name){
10:59:10 <dihedral> you can set exists to false outside the for loop
11:00:08 <dihedral> + if (trainset_filter_criteria == 0){ //No Set Filter <- move the comment above the if statement?
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11:00:28 <dihedral> and use /* */ comments
11:01:04 <dihedral> or move the comment inside the if block
11:01:31 <dihedral> STR_TRAINSET_FILTER_DROPDOWN :{BLACK}{2:RAW_STRING} <- not properly aligned
11:01:47 <dihedral> ########### For showing numbers in widgets
11:01:54 <petern> gah, i need a decent audio interface :S
11:01:54 <dihedral> you dont need those two extra lines ^^
11:02:26 <dihedral> +### Trainset Filter <- match number of # with the other comments you find in that file
11:02:40 <dihedral> Kage_Dragon, that's all i can tell you right now :-D
11:04:11 <Kage_Dragon> Thanks dihedral...
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11:46:01 <Eddi|zuHause> <dihedral> you can set exists to false outside the for loop <- a decent compiler should be able to figure that out on its own
11:46:44 <dihedral> still does not mean you can be sloppy only because you have a decent compiler :-P
11:47:17 <dihedral> else nobody would care for coding style in general :-P
11:47:35 <dihedral> or nobody would care what kind of comments you use
11:47:52 <dihedral> or not indenting empty lines
11:47:55 <dihedral> the compile handles it
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11:55:38 <Leanden> which GRF sets are you working on atm?
11:58:59 <planetmaker> opengfx + 2cctrainset
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12:58:50 <Rubidium> fonsinchen: that's odd. It would imply that 'm' is uninitialised, which would me it would be reading out of bounds of the remap 'array' which it should warn about
12:59:30 <Rubidium> fonsinchen: what (New)GRFs are you using? Sounds to me that a font is using the wrong indices or so
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13:16:26 <fonsinchen> Ah, and I'm using opengfx.
13:34:56 <planetmaker> fonsinchen, you should update your 2cc train set :)
13:36:24 <fonsinchen> I have various version of various trainsets there. I think it picks the version which was last used in the save game, doesn't it?
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13:36:47 <fonsinchen> And the savegame is not mine; I'm just trying to find out why it takes 300MB of RAM.
13:40:27 <planetmaker> fonsinchen, yes, it *should* prefer the one with the matching md5sum - I think.
13:40:54 <planetmaker> not sure though wether it or only the grfID is stored. I guess both.
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13:43:27 <dragonhorseboy> any of you have any suggestion on a passenger station grf? (just anything to replace that boring original single station tile) it'll be for a urban network
13:43:27 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, both are stored
13:43:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i always use MB's newstations
13:44:19 <Eddi|zuHause> they are the most flexibly interchangable station tiles
13:44:25 <dragonhorseboy> hm ok I'll get that ty
13:44:50 <dragonhorseboy> any idea if there're any decent tram sets yet or everything is still in early teaser stages yet?
13:44:54 <Eddi|zuHause> there are more than that
13:45:08 <dragonhorseboy> (been some time I last recall trying to collect all of them to try them out for myself)
13:45:14 <Eddi|zuHause> you can load as many station sets as you like
13:45:15 <planetmaker> dragonhorseboy, get egrvs from bananas
13:45:23 <Eddi|zuHause> then you can try out different combinations
13:45:42 <planetmaker> I usually load most station sets I do have :P
13:45:44 <Eddi|zuHause> there should be several suitible tram grfs
13:45:48 <planetmaker> dragonhorseboy, vehicles...
13:46:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the germanrv set looks promising
13:46:31 <Eddi|zuHause> but the trucks are unfinished
13:52:12 <Yexo> it's consistent: building a statino next to another fails without ctrl
13:52:40 <andythenorth> planetmaker: good points about the fishing beach
13:54:45 <dragonhorseboy> hmm ok so i got town buildings, some possible trams, planes, stations, new roads .. hmm .. I just need to decide which trainsets to default to :p
13:54:54 <planetmaker> :P sorry for the comparison with a viper bay :)
13:54:59 <dragonhorseboy> (going use lv3.5-buses for rvs anyway)
13:56:22 <planetmaker> andythenorth, in principle, I like the idea though a lot :)
13:56:36 <andythenorth> maybe in a later version
13:57:04 <planetmaker> Belugas, beach graphics in the FIRS industry set.
13:57:21 <planetmaker> (as part of an industry - whatever it may be)
13:57:21 <dragonhorseboy> FIRS? is that recent?
13:57:39 <dragonhorseboy> remind me how behind I must be on grf development since a few months ago :S
13:58:38 <Belugas> you're a lot behind on grf development seince a few months ago
13:59:02 <Belugas> even more when i can see them from the bottom of the sea
13:59:20 <dragonhorseboy> at least dbsetxl still hasn't gotten any updates yet
14:00:21 <dragonhorseboy> oh that explains it.. FIRS isn't even in the ttdx sections
14:00:25 <planetmaker> andythenorth, oh, I didn't see your final sand pit version. That looks awesome! :)
14:00:27 <Belugas> what? you ask for it and you complain when we give you waht you want??
14:01:54 <dragonhorseboy> hm these graphics don't look bad just I think some of these buildings seem to use a bit too much land
14:02:26 <Eddi|zuHause> dragonhorseboy: the dbset is getting plenty of updates... the problem is, they don't get released
14:03:13 <dragonhorseboy> I kinda would had liked to see what kind of new rolling stock were added in for any possible v0.9 grf
14:04:25 <andythenorth> what? Users ask for much bigger industries, and then complain when we give them what they want?
14:05:03 <Eddi|zuHause> who complained where?
14:05:10 <dragonhorseboy> andy..not everyone play with industry:low and map:HUGE ;)
14:05:21 <dragonhorseboy> but then go figure
14:05:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd sometimes like to have industries:even lower
14:07:33 <Eddi|zuHause> primary industries like farms need to be plenty, mines should be plenty but concentrated, secondary industries should be sparse
14:08:43 <dragonhorseboy> eddi thats alak: scenario editor
14:08:49 <dragonhorseboy> place as little or many as you please
14:09:06 <dragonhorseboy> heh belugas seem we share the same answer :p
14:09:24 <Eddi|zuHause> do you have any idea what amount of time is needed to fill a scenario by hand?
14:10:02 <Eddi|zuHause> ECS is way too overloaded
14:10:02 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, I think I do :)
14:10:48 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: ever tried to play with only one vector?
14:13:10 <Belugas> do you have any idea what amount of time is needed to think about how to do what you require without fucking up the whole industry grf base, to design a decent gui to provide necessary configuration, to actually code the whole freaking thing?
14:13:18 <Eddi|zuHause> no, but i tried PBI and it felt way more natural
14:15:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Belugas: i'm pretty sure the stuff i said is possible to do via grf
14:15:26 <Eddi|zuHause> PBI already modifies the primary to secondary ratio, afaik
14:15:45 <Belugas> yup -> [10:11] <@Belugas> make a grf :)
14:16:00 <Eddi|zuHause> and firs' survey stuff might be the way to achieve clustering of mine regions
14:16:13 <Eddi|zuHause> but the grfs don't come overnight either ;)
14:16:36 <dragonhorseboy> who's site was that that had the tunnel portal and rail depot replacement altogether?
14:16:53 <andythenorth> Is it some kind of bizarre coincidence that half of our studio is looking at Kanban versus Scrum today?
14:18:13 * Belugas was looking at the road, yesterday evening. Picked up his bottles of air for the weekend
14:18:25 <Belugas> that's the kind of evening i love!
14:18:27 <Ammler> PBI, the grf where also serviced industries disapear, just nobody knows, why :-)
14:18:53 <planetmaker> Ammler, it's so... realistic ;)
14:19:12 <Ammler> hehe, Eddi|zuHause uses another word for ;-)
14:19:37 <planetmaker> yeah :P It's safer.
14:20:01 <dragonhorseboy> oh doh thats funny.. somehow seeing your name jogged my memory ammler :p
14:20:19 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: your suggestions could be done with grf more or less. It's not even hard to code - just time consuming. But it would be a right pain in the arse to playtest and make reliable.
14:20:39 <andythenorth> And I can forsee it might get stuck in a deadlock or something. Coding conditional logic in nfo is for the brave
14:20:45 <Ammler> as I said, ECS does that.
14:21:58 <dragonhorseboy> oh no that was a different grf :/
14:22:07 <dragonhorseboy> meh where is that silly site with the tunnels
14:24:19 <dragonhorseboy> hm guess I'll just use the czset roads
14:24:34 <Eddi|zuHause> is it possible you meant ameecher instead of ammler?
14:24:45 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: he mostly does ;-)
14:25:15 <dragonhorseboy> heh eddi funny how memory sometimes runs together and yeah thats finally just what i was looking for :D
14:25:27 <dragonhorseboy> hmm uk doubledeck buses too...
14:25:54 <andythenorth> Am I going nuts or did someone have a URL to henrik kniberg somewhere above, or is my mac fucked?
14:26:56 <Eddi|zuHause> you are most likely going nuts, but that does not necessarily exclude the other alternatives :p
14:27:26 <dragonhorseboy> brb to download and sort out a bunch of grfs already
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14:36:36 <dragonhorseboy> hmm any suggestion on which bridge grf sets to try?
14:36:48 <dragonhorseboy> need to be able to comply with 240km/h trains ;)
14:38:37 <planetmaker> dragonhorseboy, none at all?
14:40:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i kinda like the bridge renewal
14:40:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't like newbridges
14:41:05 <Eddi|zuHause> because it has too many "designer" bridges
14:45:59 <Rubidium> does it have a wooden designer bridge?
14:46:35 <_ln> off-topicish: is there a NATO standard about beards?
14:51:32 <planetmaker> it's a nice one, yes
14:51:44 <planetmaker> (though I'm not Eddi :P )
14:52:12 <[wito]> _ln: I'm going to go right ahead and guess that beards are fair game, as long as your hair (or beard) doesn't touch your collar
14:52:18 <[wito]> but that's just an educated guess
14:54:16 <dragonhorseboy> am I correct that you only can use one town name list at a time or can you mix two together?
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14:57:54 <Rubidium> dragonhorseboy: am I correct that you can only drink one soft drink at a time or can you mix two together?
14:59:29 <Rubidium> dragonhorseboy: you can only drink one soft drink at a time, but when you mix them you create another soft drink which you can drink
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15:11:24 <[wito]> _ln: Like I said, that's a guess, but I think I've seen pictures of NATO officers with beards
15:15:08 <dragonhorseboy> urghh almost done with grfs..then to try a quick test map soon :S
15:15:12 <bbf> hi there... are the any developers around ?
15:15:51 <bbf> I'm coding something for OTTD, but I wanted to ask if it would be allowed to be merged into the official tree later on
15:16:44 <Yexo> that depends on a lot of things:
15:16:58 <Yexo> 1. (most important): do we think it fits with the rest of the game
15:17:10 <Yexo> 2. Does the patch follow code style
15:17:38 <Yexo> 3. Can you convince a developer to spend time reading your patch (the larger the patch, the harder this is)
15:17:55 <bbf> It adds some new dependencies... so, it's kind of big
15:18:21 <bbf> well, I really dislike the fact that some servers are running with goals (patched stuff)
15:18:58 <Yexo> you dislike the fact that some servers run with goals or do you dislike that not all servers run with goals?
15:19:04 <bbf> so what I'm trying to achieve is a system like that for OTTD
15:19:26 <bbf> I dislike that fact that they have it, and that's not part of the official
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15:19:41 <bbf> so every other server looks boring without it
15:19:54 <Zuu> but if it become a part of the official it become okay?
15:20:00 <bbf> and just look at the player count.... everyone hangs around there
15:20:27 <bbf> I think they hardcoded most stuff (guess)
15:20:41 <Yexo> I think it's not just the fact that those servers have goals, but the fact that they have active admins
15:20:54 <bbf> have they suggested merging their changes to the official tree ?
15:21:26 <Yexo> the only server I can think of is kurts goalserver, and that one stopped with the release of 0.7.0
15:21:32 <Yexo> he never released any patch, so no
15:21:48 <bbf> there are new servers with goals now, not kurt's
15:21:55 <Yexo> there was the "openttd hard goal" project some time ago, but their site seems to be down
15:22:06 <Zuu> Hasn't mega some kind of goal patch? hmm don't remember.
15:22:40 <bbf> what I'm doing is, adding the ability to script stuff on the server side
15:22:51 <bbf> like an AI, but without a company
15:22:57 <Zuu> I don't know was long time ago I read about it. Havn't been around the last one or two months much.
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15:23:28 <bbf> initially I wanted to keep Squirrel as the language, but for now, I just decided to do it in LUA
15:24:11 <bbf> I'm still crawling thru the ottd source code to find the best spots to hook it
15:24:32 <bbf> but I can already execute simple scripts
15:24:56 <bbf> would that be a good addition to the official tree ?
15:25:04 <Zuu> Now I'm not Yexo but I guess it would increase the merge chances if you are able ot use squirrel for it. Any specific reasons for not using Squirrel?
15:25:43 <Yexo> I (personally, no idea about other devs) don't like the idea of adding another scripting language
15:25:54 <bbf> but it was a matter of personal preference, and because it's easier to do the bindings
15:25:56 <Yexo> as long as it's completely optional, it may still have a chance though
15:26:16 <Yexo> bbf: did you look at how NoAI does the bindings?
15:26:23 <Yexo> they're generated automatically from the header files
15:27:04 <Zuu> Allthough the binaries compiled by the OpenTTD server probably will have it included and then have a perhaps 10-20% increase in compile time.
15:27:14 <Zuu> Squirrel added a 30% or so I recall.
15:27:34 <Yexo> it was not squirrel, more all the noai code (the complete api is a lot of code)
15:27:55 <bbf> is there any reason why you guys choose Squirrel instead of the other scripting languages ?
15:28:05 <bbf> well, ofc there's a reason
15:28:30 <Yexo> we wanted class support, and I think squirrel was the only one at that time with proper support for classes (and other functionality we needed)
15:29:08 <Yexo> but I wasn't here when the choice was made, so glx may have a better answer
15:29:15 <bbf> well, I like LUA because it's really mature already... it has been used in a lot of other games...
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15:29:29 <bbf> and lot of people already know how to code in it
15:29:49 <bbf> also because it's really fast
15:31:20 <bbf> well... I'm coding this feature like this... and I'll provide the changes if you guys are interested
15:32:00 <Eddi|zuHause> if you really learned how to program, the language does not matter
15:32:09 <Eddi|zuHause> the features and the libraries matter
15:32:11 <glx> Squirrel is inspired by languages like Python,Javascript and expecially Lua(The API is very similar and the table code is based on the Lua one)
15:32:31 <glx> if you know lua you know squirrel :)
15:32:56 <bbf> glx> I haven't really played that much with Squirrel
15:33:35 <Yexo> <bbf> but I can already execute simple scripts <- can you upload a patch somewhere so we can see how much new code is needed for lua?
15:34:12 <bbf> well... the code is pretty small... the dependencies are not
15:34:27 <Yexo> just the diff without lua then :p
15:34:41 <glx> we try to reduce external dependencies
15:34:51 <Eddi|zuHause> <_ln> off-topicish: is there a NATO standard about beards? <- the standards i learned were "have a full beard, or shave every day, grow beards only during holidays" and "it may not interfere with the operation of a gas mask"
15:34:56 <bbf> since I wanted it to be fast to prototype, I used: Lua, LuaBind, and LuaBind requires Boost
15:35:35 <bbf> yup, I knew you guyst wouldn't like that :)
15:35:47 <glx> and think about msvc users
15:36:16 <bbf> so it doesn't freakout on the templates
15:36:21 <glx> many have already problems to follow the steps to compile current code
15:36:54 <glx> even when we provide required libs in a package
15:37:20 <bbf> btw, do you have any developers that are using msvc and working with the AI ?
15:38:01 <bbf> do you use MSYS or smth to update the bindings ?
15:38:11 <Yexo> but then I have a cygwin installation which I use for svn/running the squirrel_export scripts
15:39:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really understand the reasons to introduce another scripting language when there already is one...
15:39:26 <Eddi|zuHause> unless you replace the existing one with anotherone which provides backwards compatibility
15:39:51 <Yexo> which would be a very good idea, since squirrel has many bugs ;)
15:40:04 <glx> bbf: I never ported squirrel_export to vbs :)
15:40:34 <bbf> as I said, I only did it in LUA because I know it's good, and I could do it fast
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15:40:48 <bbf> it took me 3 hours to get to the current state
15:41:06 <Yexo> bbf: again, if you can show us a diff we can see how much work it would be to convert to squirrel, and how intrusive your code is
15:41:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: but didn't TrueBrain intend to do that with NAIL?
15:42:36 <Yexo> but NAIL is "another scripting language" that "provides backwards compatibility", so it falls in your description :)
15:43:18 <glx> IIRC lua doesn't have classes
15:43:24 <Yexo> and it has a different syntax
15:43:35 <Yexo> which at this point is important
15:43:41 <bbf> yeah, it much more simple
15:44:03 <glx> (either for internal work)
15:44:06 <Zuu> But would give me and other AI writers lot of work to convert the code for Lua.
15:44:34 <Yexo> Zuu: that's why we won't switch unless the new language is at least mostly compatible
15:44:36 <bbf> hey... I'm not suggesting we replace the current AI :) don't raise the pitchforks yet
15:44:56 <Zuu> Yexo: I know you wouldn't just to tell bbf. :)
15:45:35 <Yexo> Chruker: you got aquaducts to work with your AI?
15:46:49 <Chruker> current bug is building the aquaduct over the goal tile :-)
15:48:45 <bbf> it's very simple, and just exports the "error" function
15:49:20 <bbf> and as you can notice, I copied and modified existing files
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15:54:11 * bbf stares at Chruker, as he suggests we drop Squirrel completly
15:55:22 <Yexo> just rename mapgen to goals and you should have most of the code ready
15:58:58 <bbf> hmm... this script is interesting for something else I wanted to aswell
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15:59:12 <bbf> is it gonna be merged in the trunk ?
15:59:24 <Yexo> no, because it's way too slow for map generation
15:59:32 <Yexo> 13 seconds for a 512x512 map iirc
15:59:46 <bbf> but since it's optional, why not ?
16:00:10 <bbf> you can switch between Original, TerraGenesis and Script right ?
16:00:14 <Yexo> because it'll give bug reports "openttd hangs" when people try to generate big maps
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16:01:39 <bbf> what about warning the user when it's selected: "Warning: What you are trying to do is gonna hang the game for a long time, you better get some popcorn while you are at it."
16:02:50 <bbf> or why not merge it, and only enable it with #ifdefs ? ./configure --enable-squirrel-mapgen
16:03:16 <Yexo> what's the point of merging if it's not compiled by default?
16:03:45 <bbf> sorry, I'm not trying to change the the way the project is being handled, I just wanna understand how it's being handled
16:04:12 <Yexo> ok, no problem, the reasons that patch is not included are:
16:04:16 <bbf> because some people, like me, would love to have stuff like that when running servers
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16:04:36 <Yexo> 1. It needs a new window to set seperate settings per map generator script
16:04:47 <Yexo> (and I dislike creating guis)
16:05:19 <Yexo> 2. The code needs more cleanup, the functions from mg_run.cpp should be split to some other files
16:06:01 <Yexo> 3. the few people I've send that patch (the ones most likely to create a new script) never gave much response
16:06:30 <Yexo> 4. it's slow (not a huge problem)
16:06:49 <Eddi|zuHause> <bbf> what about warning the user when it's selected: "Warning: What you are trying to do is gonna hang the game for a long time, you better get some popcorn while you are at it." <- people ignore the current "if you change newgrfs, your computer is gonna blow up" message, either
16:07:08 <[wito]> Eddi|zuHause: because it doesn't reliably blow up
16:07:25 <xahodo> Why not 2 sepparate progress bars, one for the current stage and one for the overall status?
16:08:07 <[wito]> adding newgrfs, for example, almost always works
16:08:17 <xahodo> That could help the scripted map generator with informing the player about how far it is.
16:08:57 <Yexo> xahodo: that's require the map generator script to tell openttd how far it is
16:09:07 <Yexo> which is possible, but adds mroe code to those scripts
16:09:23 <welshdragon> more code + bad thing?
16:09:30 <bbf> and it'll depend on how good the script code is
16:09:49 <xahodo> At least the player then knows how far the script is,
16:09:52 <Yexo> welshdragon: if the same can be done with less (and equally readable) code, yes
16:09:57 <bbf> do you trust progress bars when installing software ? :)
16:10:24 <Yexo> yes, I trust them to take as long for 99% and 100% as for the rest of the bar
16:10:25 <xahodo> I don't get progress bars when installing software...
16:11:10 <bbf> it's really hard to estimate how much the script will take depending on the script
16:11:35 <bbf> and I think this whole sq mapgen stuff would be great with dedicated servers only
16:11:38 <xahodo> Then let the script handle increasing the progress bars.
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16:13:08 <bbf> ooh... btw, how does the game scale when you increase the number of companies in the game ?
16:13:27 <Yexo> just increasing the number of companies does as good as nothing
16:13:33 <Yexo> it's more the total number of vehicles
16:13:38 <bbf> why is it currently set to 15, and not 30 for example ?
16:14:02 <bbf> so, if we have 200 companies, but with less vehicles per company, that would be ok ?
16:14:04 <Yexo> because several variables are 16 bit and need a bitmask of the companies
16:14:25 <Yexo> so it's not easy to increase it to more then 15
16:14:40 <bbf> that was the answer I was looking for
16:14:41 <Hirundo> And some places in the map array (roads) cannot handle more than 16 - 1 companies currently
16:14:43 <Yexo> it's also stored in the map array, and that's full
16:18:58 <glx> and number fo comany colors is limited too
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16:21:35 <Chruker> Wishlist for a new scripting system: 1) Multithreading, 2) Ability to follow (stepping) execution through the script
16:22:30 <Yexo> Chruker: completely agree with 2)
16:22:45 <Yexo> do you mean multithreading within your script, or running several AIs at the same time?
16:23:40 <glx> we tried threaded AIs, it caused more problems than it solved
16:23:56 <Chruker> Mainly one AI per thread
16:24:13 <Yexo> that causes way too much trouble to be worth the time
16:25:19 <Chruker> I guess I'm assuming that the AI would work just like a client connected to a server, but if the AI code doesnt allow that kind of seperation I see the problem :-)
16:25:40 <Yexo> it doesn't work like that
16:25:53 <Yexo> though it should be easy to create a client that runs an AI
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16:30:59 <Eddi|zuHause> such a client would still have to calculate the game state, like any multiplayer client
16:31:19 <Yexo> of course, but it could be run on a different computer
16:48:28 <Aali> in fact, I used to have a patch that would allow you to run an AI on a client
16:48:34 <Aali> without patching the server
16:48:46 <Aali> major fun pre-noAI merge
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17:37:13 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: yexo * r16520 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_bridge.cpp: -Fix [NoAI]: Make sure AIBridge::BuildBridge returns what the documentation says it does (r16244 for AIBridge)
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17:53:32 <bbf> how do releases get packaged ? are the tags for releases copied directly from the main trunk, or do they come from a branch ?
17:54:47 <bbf> and then when something is considered mature, it's backported from the trunk to the branch ?
17:55:07 <glx> only bugfixes are backported
17:55:35 <bbf> when does the trunk become the current branch then ?
17:56:03 <glx> branch is created when we think it's time to make it :)
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17:56:56 <bbf> because, that mapgen patch uses files that are in script/* in trunk, but I don't see them currently even on 7.1-RC3
17:57:30 <glx> all branches are based on trunk
17:58:12 <bbf> so at some point 7.1 came directly from trunk, right ?
17:58:56 <Yexo> bbf: somewhere before 0.7-RC1 a new branch was created for 0.7
17:59:18 <Yexo> all new development remains in trunk, and bugfixes are backported to that new branch
17:59:38 <Yexo> after some time, 0.7.0-RC1 was released, bugs where found, fixed in trunk and backported again
17:59:39 <bbf> so, if I wanna use that mapgen code on a server that is compatible with the current stable release, I'll have to backport some of the changes from trunk
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18:01:55 <Yexo> should be trivial, since 0.7 was split of at r15734
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18:11:59 <Chruker> Is the way the openttd project uses tags, branches and trunk the 'standar' way version control systems are used?
18:12:36 <bbf> using SVN is more like a coding convention
18:13:01 <bbf> even tags and branches are not a standard by svn itself
18:13:05 <blathijs> Chruker: Yeah, it is the most commonly used layout
18:13:27 <blathijs> Chruker: You could take a look at the svnbook, IIRC this convention is proposed there
18:13:36 <Xaroth> Chruker: there are no 'standards', just common-used stuff
18:14:59 <Chruker> that was why I put the word standard in the '' :-) However most of the sites where I've read about it, seems to keep trunk as the latest 'stable' and then all development are done in branches.
18:16:32 <frosch123> there is a difference between a "release branch" and a "development branch" for experimental stuff :)
18:16:48 <Xaroth> People usually use Trunk for the 'latest working version'
18:16:59 <Xaroth> in this case, it's just the latest version
18:17:19 <Xaroth> and i'm sure the devs don't just randomly commit crap if they aren't sure it's going to work :P
18:17:21 <frosch123> some also fix bugs reported for the stables first in the stable branch, and then sync trunk with the release branch. but imo that screws up history
18:20:20 <Belugas> [14:20] <Xaroth> and i'm sure the devs don't just randomly commit crap if they aren't sure it's going to work :P <--- that is... mmh... a leap of faith... you never know it's going ot work 100% of the time
18:20:50 <Belugas> sometimes, it's nt even tested, for a lack of test cases
18:20:53 <blathijs> _Most_ of the time, there will be at least _some_ testing before committing :-p
18:21:05 <Belugas> sometimes, it's not even compiled
18:21:10 <Belugas> yeah, MOST of the time ;)
18:21:32 <Chruker> Ex: '<glx> 0.7.1 will be from 0.7' that make it sounds like a tag turning into a branch
18:21:54 <Belugas> it's a tag on a branch
18:22:00 <Yexo> 0.7 is a branch, 0.7.1 will be a tag on that branch
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18:23:04 <frosch123> the latter are tags
18:23:52 <frosch123> under "branches" you will also find two abandoned development branches :)
18:26:18 <Yexo> some others were removed
18:28:33 <Chruker> It just seems to me that the location of the latest stable-ish version moves from trunk to ex. the 0.7 branch
18:29:04 <Yexo> the latest stable is never trunk
18:29:24 <Chruker> Or does ALL 0.7 relevant bugfixes get ported from trunk to 0.7 branch until you decide to go to 0.8 branch?
18:29:26 <Yexo> all bugs fixed in trunk are backported to the latest stable branch (0.7 currently)
18:29:47 <Chruker> I think that was the missing link
18:29:51 <Yexo> and in the meantime new features are introduced in trunk which can introduce new bugs
18:30:57 <frosch123> sometimes we also backport some of the new bugs :p
18:31:40 <Yexo> I'm very happy Rubidium ran the regression test before releasing 0.7.1-RC3 :)
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18:32:36 <frosch123> or r16478, I guess there are a lot :)
18:33:38 <frosch123> hmm, or was that before branching, cannot remember
18:35:53 <fonsinchen> Nice, the build system is fixed. Dependency resolution when switching between git branches seems to work fine now.
18:37:12 <fonsinchen> Oh, it seems I haven't tried without the usual "make clean && make" for a long time.
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18:39:04 <DJNekkid> question to any newgrf expert: is it possible to refrence a var2 "extra callback info" in another "extra callback info"
18:39:41 * frosch123 does not understand the question
18:39:52 <DJNekkid> tbh, me either when i think harder on it
18:41:13 <DJNekkid> clue is, i want a CB 36'es property to be adjustable on some kind of variable...
18:42:02 <frosch123> which property shall depend on which variable?
18:42:29 <DJNekkid> so if i "10" two kinds, with <value+80>, and do that thru some kind of other variable, and refrerance that in the "main" '10'
18:42:46 <DJNekkid> frosch123: i've forgotten in all this thinking :)
18:43:36 <DJNekkid> based on running speed
18:44:17 <frosch123> so you want to use the speed (as defined by cb 36) in the cb 36 to define the running cost?
18:45:04 <frosch123> or do you want to use the current speed of the vehicle for the running cost?
18:49:06 <frosch123> well, in the former case you could use a "function call" to share the chains, in the latter - well - there are some sets doing that
18:49:33 <DJNekkid> now that should work!
18:49:41 <DJNekkid> variable B4 is runspeed btw
18:49:50 <Lakie> I think Pikka does similar to what you want.
18:50:07 <DJNekkid> the cID CB might need to be an 82 btw
18:50:15 <DJNekkid> i've done something _similar_ in the 2cc st
18:50:22 <DJNekkid> just way more code...
18:50:34 <DJNekkid> changed inbetween the runspeed
18:50:43 <DJNekkid> jeesus, my english suck!
18:51:08 <DJNekkid> "if runspeed = 0, use one cb36, else use other cb36"
18:52:10 <frosch123> hmm, is there still some open question?
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18:55:49 <DJNekkid> i dont think so ... and i woul think that the paste i did there would work...
18:55:58 <DJNekkid> sometimes one just need to air ones thouts i think :)
18:56:08 <DJNekkid> and my wife is talkin on the phone :p
18:57:19 <DJNekkid> Lakie: did the animation code work btw?
18:57:44 <Lakie> Haven't had achance to try it, renum keeps failing to compile (cygwin error though)
18:57:51 <fonsinchen> Why does NFO have such a sick syntax? Wouldn't it be possible to alias every meaningful block of hex code with either a human readable keyword or a human readable number, perhaps add some braces and then just run a very simple string replacing compiler on that to get the originial NFO syntax? That would be very helpful for people like me who can't read hex like a book. Maybe I should try something like this.
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18:58:29 <Aali> fonsinchen: its called preprocessing, and people have already done it :)
18:59:28 <frosch123> multiple people have done it :) but noone seems to use any of those
19:00:13 <fonsinchen> Oh, do you have a link?
19:00:43 <fonsinchen> Why does no one use the preprocessors?
19:01:47 <Aali> because it doesn't actually make things easier since everyone and everything else works with (more or less) raw nfo?
19:02:28 <frosch123> fonsinchen: because everyone of them uses a different weird script language which no windows noob can use
19:07:25 <fonsinchen> The preprocessor should work in both ways: compile and decompile nfo seemlessly. Then incompatibility between stuff written in raw nfo and symbolic nfo wouldn't be an issue.
19:08:31 <frosch123> some of them can also deal with that, but imo grf->nfo is hardly useful, as you won't understand the grf anyway
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19:09:01 <planetmaker> Lakie: I have compiled a recent renum version which works without cygwin support
19:09:17 <Lakie> Could I have a copy, if you don't mind.
19:09:23 <planetmaker> I attached it in the renum thread
19:09:23 <fonsinchen> If you could decompile NFO into some symbolic representation you'd at least have more of a chance of understanding it.
19:09:28 <planetmaker> of course, I don't mind :)
19:09:33 <Lakie> Usually I'd build my own, but cygwin refuses to find the boost files
19:09:37 <frosch123> fonsinchen: you know grf2html ?
19:09:54 <fonsinchen> but the result is not editable.
19:10:12 <fonsinchen> that's a drawback.
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19:12:58 <planetmaker> no worries. My pleasure
19:13:01 <planetmaker> does it work for you?
19:14:09 <planetmaker> Btw Lakie: I made good experience with just using MinGW and MSys. without any cygwin things required
19:14:19 <planetmaker> that's how I built it.
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19:14:38 <Lakie> MinGW works pretty nicely
19:14:43 <planetmaker> nice, good to know it works for others, too and not just for me :)
19:14:45 <Lakie> Not sure about MSys though
19:15:23 <planetmaker> well. If everything you need works - don't change it :)
19:15:27 <Lakie> Except with mingw, I've always had issues with gdb
19:15:47 <planetmaker> I didn't use that so far under windows.
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19:49:45 <Ammler> hmm, is there a function to delete the old bananas grfs?
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19:52:26 <Yexo> terms of service: 4. You grant the OpenTTD team to retain older versions of your content for the purpose of loading savegame with said older version.
19:53:44 <planetmaker> Yexo: I think it was meant as locally.
19:53:47 <planetmaker> Not on the server
19:54:18 <planetmaker> of course there's the rm function ;)
19:55:24 <planetmaker> on the server it doesn't make sense indeed
19:56:38 <Ammler> yes, I meant something to automatically clean the server
19:57:30 <Ammler> and i agree you keeping old grfs on bananas, that is completely fine ;-)
19:58:53 <Yexo> the main problem is that a client (I assume your server is a game-server, so a bananas-client) has no idea whether or not a newgrf is outdated
20:00:59 <Ammler> rm * and redownload might be the easiest
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20:05:15 <Ammler> Yexo: why not, you can update grfs, so it should be possible?
20:05:46 <Yexo> Ammler: uploading is possible because the bananas server tells what the new versions are
20:05:48 <Ammler> well, it needs first connecting to server, but would be less traffic then redownload everything.
20:07:03 <Ammler> for server, it is important to delete old files, as they are loaded randomly.
20:08:39 <Yexo> ah, I see the problem now
20:09:52 <Ammler> I am wondering, nobody thought about version info in newgrfs earlier ;-)
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20:48:13 <Ammler> Belugas: but you don't mean GRFID?
20:48:38 <Ammler> as you change that only, if it isn't compatible anymore.
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20:50:20 <Belugas> [16:13] <Ammler> I am wondering, nobody thought about version info in newgrfs earlier ;-)
20:50:34 <Belugas> use it properly or not
20:50:50 <Belugas> that's waht it's used for :S
20:51:17 <Belugas> unless yu need a version of a version in a version for a version :S
20:51:34 <Ammler> you don't change grfid for version
20:51:55 <Ammler> and i.e. george doesn't use it anyway,
20:52:12 <Belugas> does not mean that if he throws himself over a bridge you should follow
20:54:12 <Ammler> would you change the GRFID, if you have to fix a alignment?
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21:00:30 <Belugas> everytime you recompile for distribution, you should
21:01:01 <Belugas> if for the outside world, a recompile would require a new version
21:01:36 <planetmaker> Belugas: how do you indicate then, that the grfs are compatible?
21:01:54 <planetmaker> they are compatible. Just a bit changed graphics etc. No changes with IDs.
21:01:58 <planetmaker> that doesn't make sense IMO
21:02:24 <Belugas> not the point of compatibilty
21:02:29 <planetmaker> grfID should indicate incompatible things like ISR 8.0 and 7.1
21:02:39 <andythenorth> right now I am doing a minor version change on HEQS. it's a bug fix. If change the grfid I break all saved games.
21:02:49 <andythenorth> that's not good. even if it's correct
21:03:00 <Belugas> you CHANGED something, you RECOMPILED something, yu change version
21:03:08 <Belugas> that's what i do at work
21:03:19 <Belugas> that's what Ottd does too
21:03:19 <planetmaker> yes. But OpenTTD also maintains compatibility.
21:03:28 <planetmaker> newgrfs cannot do that, if they change version
21:04:51 <planetmaker> well it works for base grfs. why not newgrfs?
21:05:15 <andythenorth> I change something. I change version. I break saved games. Users are pissed off. How is that helping? :)
21:06:08 <planetmaker> andythenorth: technically you're not breaking savegames. They just have to keep playing with the old one in old games. But nevertheless...
21:06:42 <planetmaker> if it's wrong to use the same GRFID but different MD5 sum... why accept that at all?
21:07:39 <andythenorth> I may be talking out of my arse, but the grfid schema doesn't *look* like a version key. It looks like a grf key to allow grfs to check for the presence of other grfs. I wasn't there when it was invented, but the uses I've *seen* and the documentation I've *seen* indicate that is one of its functions??
21:08:19 <planetmaker> it's a machine readable name by documentation
21:09:53 * Belugas turns back to tis duties
21:10:31 <Nite_Owl> What if the GRFID stays the same but you change the file name to coincide with the version released
21:10:59 <planetmaker> Nite_Owl: the filename is irrelevant afaik
21:11:39 <Nite_Owl> true but it does give you an idea of the grf's progression
21:11:41 <planetmaker> the point is that openttd filters, if the grfID is the same
21:12:03 <planetmaker> and gives you a random file out of those with the same grfID.
21:12:14 <planetmaker> not the newest, not the oldest, just some
21:12:40 <planetmaker> IF they're all in tars w/o directories.
21:12:46 <planetmaker> and a server may select any
21:13:10 <andythenorth> can we fix this grfid business in any easy way? :)
21:13:56 <planetmaker> well. It helps to pack things in an archive in a sub-directory.
21:14:03 <planetmaker> then they're considered seperate files
21:17:07 <Nite_Owl> I do not use bananas that much for these exact reasons - plus I have my own directory structure where I like to store grfs
21:18:55 <planetmaker> well. bananas works like a charm IMO in that respect. It's easy to use to stay up2date with those grfs.
21:19:51 <Nite_Owl> I do seem to remember being able to extract files from the tars though and move them around as much as I might like
21:19:54 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: frosch * r16521 /trunk/src/yapf/follow_track.hpp: -Fix [FS#2946] (r13945): Do not access 'compatible_railtypes' for road vehicles. (causing invalid reads since r16391/16392)
21:25:33 <Nite_Owl> and for those grf makers that do not rename their files with a version number I usually do that for the sake of my own sanity anyway
21:26:20 <Ammler> Nite_Owl: that is something you shouldn't do without grfid change
21:26:50 <Ammler> just think about newgrf presets
21:28:05 <Nite_Owl> I only do it so I can remember if I have the latest version of the grf or not
21:28:21 <Yexo> Ammler: it doesn't matter if you do that as soon as you download something
21:28:23 <Ammler> ah, for your local grfs?
21:28:51 <Yexo> <Ammler> Nite_Owl: that is something you shouldn't do without grfid change <- that
21:29:17 <Ammler> yeah, I thought, he renames grf file for release
21:30:40 <Nite_Owl> no - just personal use
21:31:14 <Ammler> well, I do that too (the old gfs), also for the grfpack
21:31:59 <Ammler> there are around 4 different ISR versions in the coop pack :-)
21:35:58 <Nite_Owl> Speaking of which has anyone heard from mart3p recently?
21:37:12 <andythenorth> yes, he's busy ;)
21:37:31 <andythenorth> I think he's either buried with 'real' work. or out of the country.
21:38:11 <frosch123> Last visited: Tue May 26, 2009 5:57 pm <- :o
21:40:13 <Nite_Owl> I still owe him some feedback from late last year but I will await his non-busyness
21:40:32 <andythenorth> don't take my word for it, he may pop up all eager to code :)
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21:40:51 <andythenorth> I usually get him on forum PMs
21:42:55 <Nite_Owl> Once he returns to a more 'normal' schedule of appearances I will contact him
21:43:46 <Lakie> planetmaker: tested it properly now, seems to work fine, thanks
21:44:02 <planetmaker> good to hear :) You're welcome.
21:44:25 <Lakie> Now I have to update the xls file before I can use it to start coding, lol
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22:03:28 <Eddi|zuHause> brezels and coffee? why not put salt in your coffee directly?
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22:28:09 <bbf> Yexo, something that the mapgen needs is more math functions
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22:28:58 <Yexo> bbf: you might have noticed that patch is nearly 2 months old
22:29:07 <Yexo> feel free to update it, add things etc.
22:29:13 <Yexo> but don't except too much time from me
22:29:37 <bbf> but you said you didn't have any feedback from it
22:29:55 <bbf> I'm just giving you feedback :)
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continue to next day ⏵
