IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2009-04-16
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01:52:19 <NekoMaster> YAY! i love my country
01:52:32 <NekoMaster> though USA gets kudos for Obama :D
01:53:34 <NekoMaster> who here is here for Trains
02:00:00 <Aali> that guy figured out how to use IRC?
02:00:24 <Aali> if he ever comes back when there's more than two people awake, things will get interesting
02:00:40 <De_Ghosty> it never get intresting
02:00:50 <De_Ghosty> code it yourself :o
02:01:18 <Aali> so go do it already, don't waste time in this channel
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09:00:00 <petern> TrueBrain, it continues :D
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09:36:48 <TrueBrain> petern: no, it is no longer ranting; now it became flaming
09:38:23 <TrueBrain> in fact, normally people get warnings for such attitude on the forums ...
09:47:43 <Forked> I can't find the flaming :\
09:47:55 <TrueBrain> people are nosy ...
09:48:18 <dihedral> TrueBrain, you want them to be, else you would not be talking about it all the time ^^
09:48:41 <TrueBrain> dihedral: no, I was talking to petern, which the word 'petern:' before me starting the talk did suggest :p
09:48:47 <TrueBrain> like that line was for you, not for Forked
09:49:17 <dihedral> yep, but you do know this is a public channel :-P
09:49:33 <Forked> I could argue that if it was for petern only you could have used /msg instead of telling everybody what you're really only telling one person. :-) BUT! I'll try not to and instead actually do some work.
09:50:46 <Forked> I failed.. still here :\
09:50:55 <TrueBrain> Forked: good choice .. work is boring :p
09:51:54 <Forked> is he hugging you in private places?
09:52:31 <TrueBrain> dihedral: stop abusing DorpsGek
09:52:31 <dihedral> violated is the wrong word i think :-P
09:52:40 <Forked> quick, someone rickroll TrueBrain ..
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10:04:08 <TrueBrain> so, anyone made anything nice today?
10:04:31 <TrueBrain> I did that yesterday :p
10:04:46 <SpComb> with the ice floating on the sea
10:04:49 <Forked> lunch in 25 minutes.. out on the roof where I work. We have ordered take-away :-)
10:05:33 <TrueBrain> last time, we wanted to order pizza and get it delivered to us inside a DataCenter
10:05:48 <SpComb> give them the rack address
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10:07:06 <Forked> how stable does it sound if one use a practice grenade (so it's not loaded or anything) for opening beer bottles?
10:07:19 <Forked> I have these pictures.. and it occurs to me that we might look a bit insane
10:08:14 <dihedral> TrueBrain, tcl coding :-D
10:08:17 <TrueBrain> but I doubt it is a matter of 'might' look insane .. I am sure it LOOKS insane :p
10:10:29 <Forked> so about that flaming, where!?!?1+ :p
10:11:31 <orudge> flame grilled burgers!
10:11:38 <TrueBrain> don't give me idea orudge!!
10:21:07 <Xaroth> TrueBrain: ordering a pizza to evoswitch?
10:21:17 <Xaroth> last time we were there somebody actually delivered a pizza there
10:21:18 <TrueBrain> Xaroth: that has to be fun! :)
10:21:56 <TrueBrain> but we decided to find some real food in Haarlem
10:22:08 <Xaroth> though i'm not sure whether that was for the reception people or for actual engineers
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11:00:56 <Rubidium> I thought you already finished your higher education ;)
11:01:03 <MapperOG> psychiatrie is fine?
11:01:04 <Rubidium> and hello Celestar ;)
11:02:37 <Celestar> Rubidium: how are you?
11:02:41 <TrueBrain> it is a ..... Celestar!
11:02:48 * TrueBrain starts running putting on his best cloths
11:02:55 <TrueBrain> oh, I need to take a shower
11:02:58 <TrueBrain> wait, quick, my hair!
11:03:33 <Rubidium> Celestar: annoyed by the terrible weather
11:03:34 <Forked> holy crap it's Celestar
11:03:43 <dihedral> how nice of you to visit :-)
11:03:46 <TrueBrain> as you can see, Celestar, you are missed :p
11:03:56 <Forked> with his backwards smileythingies
11:05:11 <TrueBrain> so with what you need help?
11:05:20 <Celestar> syncing cargodest against trunk
11:06:00 <Celestar> my stomach hurts terribly at the moment
11:06:08 <TrueBrain> stop hitting your stomach
11:06:26 <Celestar> I had an ... encounter .. with ESA's IT department.
11:06:44 <TrueBrain> you walked into a satelite? :p
11:06:44 <Rubidium> intra terrestrials ?
11:06:53 <Celestar> cuz a colleague of mine is just at one of their sites.
11:07:13 <Celestar> he couldn't log to our cluster (which he needs for computations), since the ESA firewall blocked outgoing ssh traffic
11:07:21 <Celestar> "for security reasons"
11:07:32 <Celestar> so was asked them what traffic was considered safe
11:07:39 <Celestar> (i.e. ports are open)
11:08:13 <Forked> sshd on 443 then .. always works :p
11:08:22 <Celestar> nah we put it on 23 :P
11:08:24 <TrueBrain> you can't ssh, but you can telnet! Much more secure!
11:08:37 <Forked> let me just type my password here then aaand it's gone!
11:08:45 * Celestar made a mental note note to fly to space with ESA
11:08:53 <TrueBrain> tnx for the warnings Celestar :)
11:09:05 <TrueBrain> I hope they don't do the firewall of the IIS communication :p
11:09:11 <Celestar> Rubidium: dunno about 135-139 since none of the university routes route netBIOS traffic ;)
11:09:48 <Celestar> but ok. of course telnet is safe and ssh isn't
11:10:02 <Celestar> that's why Windows still ships without an ssh client but with a telnet client :P
11:10:33 <TrueBrain> "Windows Vista is the most secure OS out there"
11:10:35 <Rubidium> well, with telnet there can be no man-in-the-middle-attack
11:11:00 <TrueBrain> (a quote I read yesterday, but some guy up in the MS hierarcy)
11:11:10 <Celestar> TrueBrain: considering how difficult it is to connect Vista to any kind of network, that may actually be true.
11:11:33 <Celestar> Rubidium: how so? cuz no one uses it anymore?
11:11:34 <TrueBrain> the reasoning after it was a bit flawed, but okay .. with narrow vision, you can claim a lot of things :)
11:11:58 <TrueBrain> no encryption, so no use of man-in-middle-attack :p
11:12:23 <Celestar> "most people have a mental horizon that is a circle of radius zero. That's what they call their 'point of view'"
11:12:55 <TrueBrain> Celestar: anyway, you join at a nice time to ask for a sync of cargodest :)
11:13:12 <Rubidium> Celestar: telnet is a broadcast protocol; it broadcasts the information to everyone, so instead of a man in the middle there's everyone in the middle
11:13:36 <SpComb> and does ESA use hubs for its internal network as well?
11:13:52 <Celestar> no, because carrier pigeons are point-to-point
11:13:52 <Forked> they call them hubbles
11:14:03 <Rubidium> SpComb: only satelites and radio waves
11:15:36 <Celestar> oh another story. I was on a page of a _very_ large germany company. For online purchases, they had some page to enter your credit card. Only parts of the page were https, the rest http (ok for the images). However, I discovered that the site wasn't protected against any kind of cross-site scripting. Being I good boy, I e-mailed the webmaster about the security hole. Answer: "What is cross-site scripting?"
11:16:43 <TrueBrain> Celestar: last time I emailed someone for that, I got flaimed for trying to hack into their site and I don't know what more ..
11:17:07 <Celestar> it's nice to be back here. too many idiots out there in the real world
11:17:45 <MapperOG> you don't know me, do you? :p
11:19:00 <Celestar> I had some guy recently who told me he's been coding C++ since the 70s :P
11:19:31 <Rubidium> then I've been coding OpenTTD since the 80s
11:19:56 <SpComb> or he meant the C/C++ language
11:20:22 <TrueBrain> Celestar: timebubbles! I tell you!
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11:20:44 * TrueBrain gives Celestar a hug instead
11:23:29 <Rubidium> Celestar: you should move to Harajuku, Tokyo when you want lots of free hugs
11:24:49 <Forked> also japan are pretty good at high speed internet (at least inside japan..)
11:27:11 <Celestar> Rubidium: er .. is this work safe?
11:27:34 <Rubidium> if hugging is safe at your work then yes
11:27:48 <Rubidium> well, and excentric people need to be safe too
11:31:41 <Rubidium> why did google make their 'street view' early in the morning when Harajuku bridge is boring?
11:31:46 <Celestar> Rubidium: is it ok for the cargodest branch to set the saveload revision to 1000 for the tim being?
11:32:05 <Celestar> and set it to current++ if there is a merge in 2025?
11:32:22 <petern> how the fuck do you turn off firefox trying to 'correct' entries in text inputs?
11:32:36 <TrueBrain> how did you get that on in the first place?
11:32:37 <Rubidium> not quite sure whether 1000 is possible right now (SL_MAX_VERSION being 255 etc)
11:33:03 <petern> i have it remember what i used previously
11:33:07 <petern> because generally that's useful
11:33:08 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: why is that 255? :p
11:33:30 <petern> but then i want to put in something slightly different to a previous entry, and it changes it to that previous entry
11:33:52 <TrueBrain> petern: ah, you mean that feature .. that is fucking annoying :p Moving to the left or right sometimes help .. or clicking somewhere else ..
11:34:32 <petern> sometimes, sometimes not
11:36:16 <planetmaker> u... I sense a long lost presence in this channel :)
11:36:21 <planetmaker> Hello celestar :)
11:38:12 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: when removing 'minor' version, I thought we had set that value to 65535 too .. oh well .. still possible ;)
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11:45:25 <Xaroth> petern: you can always hover over the entry and then press delete..it removes the entry from it's database.
11:46:20 <jonty-comp> ooh, my cygwin has hg installed
11:46:23 <jonty-comp> I didn't know that
11:46:30 <TrueBrain> Xaroth: undocumented feature? :p
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11:46:35 * jonty-comp checks out the infrastructure sharing thing
11:51:52 <TrueBrain> where have you been? :)
11:52:34 <Xaroth> ugh, sf takes ages to approve a project
11:52:41 <Yexo> few days at my parents house, busy with uni work the last 2 days
11:53:12 <TrueBrain> Yexo: important things :)
11:53:19 <Xaroth> tb: so i have a 'public' svn for AutoTTD.
11:53:30 <TrueBrain> Xaroth: SF sucks :(
11:54:37 * Rubidium wonders how many commits you can do a day on SF
11:55:01 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: seen the speed of their subversion, I say ... 4 commits a day :p
11:55:29 <jonty-comp> use googlecode! :D
11:56:06 <Xaroth> i'll use my own home server for development then.. use sf for public updates
11:56:46 <Xaroth> not like it'll have a lot of data anyhow
11:57:17 <Rubidium> Xaroth: uploading OpenTTD's binary at 20 kBps is done faster than setting up a release on SF
11:57:34 <Rubidium> doing the SF release takes the most time of an OpenTTD release
11:57:48 <Rubidium> and most of that is spend waiting on pages to refresh
11:57:55 <Xaroth> Rubidium: yeh, so i noticed
11:57:59 <glx> Xaroth: use hg and start hg serve when you want to share your stuff :)
11:58:00 * TrueBrain still thinks we should set up a 3rdparty section on openttd.org :p
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11:59:21 <Rubidium> Googlecode: 8.3 Google reserves the right (but shall have no obligation) to pre-screen, review, flag, filter, modify, refuse or remove any or all Content from any Service <- looks pretty... uhm... "we own you" to me
11:59:58 <Xaroth> google is known to cover their asses in 20 meters of concrete
12:00:07 <dihedral> put up some nazi stuff, and you'll know why they reserve that right ^^
12:00:12 <Xaroth> just like their appserver project
12:00:15 <TrueBrain> which should keep you away from Google with 20 miles distance :p
12:00:15 <glx> and if they like it they "steal" it ?
12:00:50 <dihedral> glx: not if it's under gpl :-P
12:00:51 <jonty-comp> that wouldn't be too great for PR though
12:01:17 <glx> dihedral: of course it's allowed by gpl
12:01:22 <Rubidium> dihedral: but what if you agree to license them to do "anything" with it?
12:01:27 <TrueBrain> jonty-comp: they just pay you to shut up :p
12:01:58 <Rubidium> 11.1 By submitting, posting or displaying the content you give Google a perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, royalty-free, and non-exclusive licence to reproduce, adapt, modify, translate, publish, publicly perform, publicly display and distribute any Content which you submit, post or display on or through, the Services <- dihedral like so
12:02:25 <TrueBrain> an other "we own you" :p
12:02:32 <jonty-comp> they own us anyway :D
12:02:33 <glx> IIRC it's the same for gmail
12:02:37 <TrueBrain> but I believe there were 3 of them :p
12:02:45 * jonty-comp has used GMail since it was released :(
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12:03:21 <TrueBrain> glx: worse: even with Chrome
12:03:26 <Xaroth> glx: Mercurial sounds too much effort for such a small thing.
12:03:35 * jonty-comp has used Chrome since it was released :(
12:03:42 <TrueBrain> Xaroth: it is much easier in setup and usage, but also in publishing
12:03:48 <TrueBrain> subversion is .. a bit out-dated ;) :p
12:03:56 <TrueBrain> jonty-comp: you should reconsider who you trust :p
12:04:11 <Rubidium> TrueBrain, something like: 19.2 You understand and agree that if you use the Services after the date on which the Universal Terms or Additional Terms have changed, Google will treat your use as acceptance of the updated Universal Terms or Additional Terms.
12:04:23 <Xaroth> it took me 2 minutes to set up apache2 with svn
12:04:31 <jonty-comp> I just wish someone would fix windows so it doesn't splutter and die when faced with a few thousand .svn files
12:04:35 <Xaroth> looking at how to use mercurial with svn took me longer than that :/
12:04:41 <TrueBrain> easier it can't be :)
12:04:43 <Rubidium> i.e. whenever Google really wants to own you, they just change the license
12:04:59 <glx> no need to set up a web server for hg
12:05:00 <Gekz> Rubidium: then you say fuck that
12:05:03 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: which, lucky for us Dutchies, is invalid in any ToS
12:05:19 <dihedral> TrueBrain, apt-get install apache2 libapache2-mod-svn subversion :-P
12:05:29 <Rubidium> and that ofcourse goes to your gmail account, so when they tell it has changed via an email you already agreed to it
12:05:41 <glx> TrueBrain: you forgot hg init ;)
12:05:49 <TrueBrain> glx: no, you didn't read all I said :p
12:06:06 <TrueBrain> Xaroth: either way, the reason why Mercurial wins from Subversion, is that it is much more lightweigted .. and .. decentral :)
12:06:08 <jonty-comp> msvc is annoyingly slow
12:06:29 <Rubidium> jonty-comp: cross compiling OSX is more annoyingly slow
12:06:29 <glx> jonty-comp: don't build release version
12:06:35 <LUADuck> Does 0.7.0 have any known bugs?
12:06:47 <jonty-comp> perhaps I should try out Mercurial, I didn't bother before because I only just got the hang of subversion :o
12:06:49 <TrueBrain> LUADuck: without doubt: yes
12:07:12 * jonty-comp points at known-bugs.txt
12:07:12 <TrueBrain> well, Xaroth, not always
12:07:14 <Xaroth> the only perfect application is Hello World.
12:07:19 <TrueBrain> I once wrote a patch which removed ALL bugs from OpenTTD
12:07:19 <LUADuck> We've got a few clients with disconnects due to "wrong company-id in DOCOMMAND"
12:07:29 <Gekz> Xaroth: it could be better optimised for size
12:07:29 <TrueBrain> but .. it end up doing nothing at all :p
12:07:32 <Rubidium> jonty-comp: that's lame
12:07:38 <glx> LUADuck: probably cheaters
12:07:45 <LUADuck> Xaroth: Bash has rm -rf / protection nowadays
12:07:51 <LUADuck> Not cheaters, trusted clients
12:07:52 <Rubidium> people ought not to read that, just like they ought not to read the readme
12:07:55 <Xaroth> Gekz: not a bug tho :)
12:08:05 <petern> there's a bug that happens if you start/load a game on a server while players are connected
12:08:10 <Gekz> Xaroth: it could be a void init
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12:08:24 <Xaroth> Gekz: yes, but it's still not a bug :)
12:08:27 <LUADuck> All is fine after a map load here
12:08:33 <Xaroth> nothing is not working as designed.
12:08:41 <Xaroth> as such, hello world is bug-free :)
12:08:53 <Xaroth> LUADuck: different conversation.
12:09:10 <TrueBrain> Xaroth: I once had a buggy Hello world application
12:09:20 <glx> Xaroth: I can add bugs in hello world
12:09:26 * jonty-comp has an intense dislike for java
12:09:33 <Rubidium> what are "trusted clients"?
12:09:41 <TrueBrain> jonty-comp: I join you in that group :)
12:10:09 <jonty-comp> agh, stupid msvc web browser
12:10:53 * Xaroth rather has C# than Java.
12:10:56 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: haha, one evil doesn't country out an other evil :)
12:11:16 * jonty-comp rather has .NET than Java anyday, but it is stil lesser of two evils
12:11:26 <glx> .NET is nice for windows only development
12:11:33 <Xaroth> glx: I use .net on unix.
12:11:41 <TrueBrain> glx: I dislike you need to install a N MiB size thingy before you can run such ap
12:11:48 <glx> Xaroth: try WPF in mono ;)
12:12:12 <Xaroth> WPF.. WINDOWS p..something foundation
12:12:44 <Xaroth> in the time that sourceforge has not yet accepted my project
12:12:59 <TrueBrain> Xaroth: it can take up to 24 hours
12:13:00 <Xaroth> a chat with my colleagues.... and installed viewsvn on my home pc.
12:13:03 <TrueBrain> that are a lot of cups of tea :p
12:13:26 <Xaroth> oh, and spent an hour not on work *whistles*
12:13:26 <jonty-comp> or one very large cup of tea
12:13:46 <Xaroth> and even updated my dyndns, hrr hrr
12:16:39 <Xaroth> ... i really need to sort out my coding
12:16:44 <TrueBrain> ieuw, ugly svn viewer
12:16:44 <Xaroth> especially when i code late at night O_O
12:16:49 * Rubidium wonders whether suo belongs in a repository
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12:17:05 <Xaroth> Rubidium: I use that repo to move data from home to work
12:17:13 <Xaroth> it'll even have .exe/.pdb/.dll
12:18:28 <Xaroth> I.. abuse my SVN for file-sharing etc :)
12:18:33 <joachim> does anyone know if there is a later version of aircraft queueing than r12231?
12:18:43 <Rubidium> Xaroth: logging in at home as Administrator?
12:19:11 <Yexo> joachim: if you can't find it on the forum thread you're out of luck
12:19:20 <Xaroth> as a full access user, yes
12:19:21 <Yexo> only thing you can try is pming the author of that patch
12:19:31 <planetmaker> wth is "aircraft queuing"?
12:19:37 <Rubidium> and your work has Dutch Windows?
12:20:20 <Rubidium> there where you're not admin ;)
12:20:50 <Celestar> Rubidium: where's the list of download stats? :P
12:20:52 <Xaroth> i'm an admin on all my machines
12:21:15 <Rubidium> Celestar: make an educated guess where openttd.org/'s stats would be
12:22:14 <Celestar> but that'S not yet the download stats :P
12:22:32 <TrueBrain> www.openttd.org/en/ ... guess what follows ;)
12:22:43 <Xaroth> Rubidium: why do you ask?
12:23:16 <Rubidium> Xaroth: because there's lots of private data in some of those MSVC generated files
12:23:50 <TrueBrain> I am already hacking into his computer as we speak
12:23:53 <TrueBrain> nice porn collection Xaroth
12:23:55 <Xaroth> TrueBrain: i doubt that
12:24:25 <Xaroth> Rubidium: it becomes quite useless when you open and commit those files from so many different machines
12:24:36 <LUADuck> Xaroth: What the porn
12:24:51 <Xaroth> TrueBrain: remote hard drives, which aren't connected to my pc atm ;)
12:25:14 <Rubidium> Mister Steven N. it will actually become more interesting; knowing you are sometimes Administrator, well... let us try to find a remote exploit
12:26:06 <Rubidium> it'll be fairly easy to set up a server that you would scan while being admin
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12:28:47 <Rubidium> this._startDate = DateTime.MinValue.AddDays(data._startDate - 366);
12:28:57 <Rubidium> I love those kinds of lines without comments ;)
12:28:58 <orudge> 34.01GB of IPv4 bandwidth since 15th for tt-forums, 806.15MB of IPv6, fun stuff
12:29:06 <Xaroth> Rubidium: I don't comment when I'm coding at night
12:29:47 <LUADuck> orudge: That's a lot of porn
12:30:20 <Zr40> hot aircraft on train action
12:30:22 <Rubidium> that's almost as much as OpenTTD
12:31:37 <Rubidium> sounds like your bandwidth usage has increased quite considerably lately though
12:33:06 <Rubidium> in the "donate to the forums" 2009 edition you're talking about about 6 GB of bandwidth a day
12:33:48 <Rubidium> 6 GB a day over 2008 and 4 GB a day over 2007
12:35:10 <Celestar> Rubidium: we're doing 10GB of traffic per day now? O_o
12:35:21 <Rubidium> though I must say OpenTTD has seen almost a doubling in bandwidth since January
12:36:40 <Rubidium> last month ~20 GB a day, this month over 30 GB a day
12:38:10 <Celestar> so the forums actually do much less traffic than the rest? O_o
12:38:41 <planetmaker> he... Rubidium how much is the online content service?
12:38:48 <Rubidium> planetmaker: no idea
12:39:21 <planetmaker> how're you? Are you already Mr Dr Celestar? Do I have say you to you :D ?
12:39:30 <Rubidium> planetmaker: averaging 18000 downloads or so a day this month
12:39:45 <Celestar> planetmaker: not yet. working on it.
12:39:53 <Celestar> motivation is at the low point
12:39:59 <planetmaker> he, quite a lot, Rubidium :)
12:40:00 * Celestar resumes merging cargodest :P
12:40:05 <planetmaker> Celestar, oh, yeah... :S
12:40:17 <Rubidium> 2000-2500 binary downloads a day
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12:40:28 <Celestar> Rubidium: what's the 18000 figure then?
12:40:37 <Celestar> planetmaker: how's it on your end?
12:40:45 <Celestar> planetmaker: I spend most of my day procrastinating.
12:40:45 <Rubidium> content thingy downloads
12:40:59 <planetmaker> he... sounds like my days, Celestar ... :S
12:41:02 <Celestar> planetmaker: need a laugh? www.structuredprocrastination.com
12:41:09 <Zr40> cargodest, sounds iteresting. What's it about?
12:41:31 <glx> Celestar resumes merging cargodest :P <-- good luck :)
12:41:45 <Celestar> glx: I'm doing it step by step (in blocks of about 50 commits)
12:41:47 <planetmaker> I'm still fiddeling with parts of my data, though. But try to get a bit writing done concurrently
12:41:57 <Celestar> bout 60 pages and counting
12:42:02 <glx> Celestar: I tried, but failed with orders rewrite
12:42:09 <planetmaker> Celestar, you should talk to Aali. He has a version working quite recently.
12:42:11 <Celestar> then there's the search for a job ....
12:42:22 <Celestar> planetmaker: a merge version?
12:42:26 <planetmaker> He might even have it as hg...
12:42:42 <planetmaker> a more recent version than the official hg repository
12:42:50 <planetmaker> much more recent, I dare say
12:43:12 <planetmaker> I think it might be posted as svn patch in the forums - but I guess that's not what you want :)
12:43:15 <Celestar> meh creen seems messed up
12:44:18 <Celestar> TrueBrain: where does the hg push go to? ssh+svn:// ?
12:44:44 <TrueBrain> ssh://celestar@secure.openttd.org//var/repos/hg/developers/celestar/cargodest.hg I think
12:45:09 <TrueBrain> I love my memory :)
12:45:18 <Celestar> glx: what rev was the order rewrite?
12:45:51 <fonsinchen> see forum for details
12:48:35 <Rubidium> 14803 looks like the order rewrite one
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12:49:09 <fonsinchen> Celestar, I'd happily cooperate with you on the cargo destination/distribution project. Yet I think your approach is limited in some ways: missing load balancing and bad demand function especially.
12:49:59 <Rubidium> fonsinchen: exactly the things where Celestar seems to be having a few plans for already but didn't implement yet
12:50:35 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: doesn't mean they can't work together ;)
12:50:58 <Celestar> fonsinchen: he. those two are currently just QnD solutions to have a working system :P
12:51:03 <Rubidium> true, but saying something is limited when not having all information is wrong ;)
12:51:14 <fonsinchen> You can't do that as "version 2". The demand function has to be done before actually distributing cargo.
12:51:19 <Rubidium> there have been some people saying things like that lately on the forum
12:51:30 <planetmaker> "coming short" might be better wording than :P
12:51:52 <fonsinchen> I have written an article in the Wiki
12:52:04 <fonsinchen> and I have a working implementation. It only needs a GUI
12:53:02 <Celestar> my goal was to write a system that has a _very low_ performance impact on the game
12:53:05 <fonsinchen> And with load balancing the distribution problem becomes much more difficult than without - ie shortest path versus multi-commodity flow
12:53:45 <fonsinchen> so I decided to implement the load balancing from the beginning on instead of rewriting everything afterwards
12:53:46 <Rubidium> why isn't there a web view for the git repository?
12:54:00 <fonsinchen> Because I don't know how to do it
12:54:21 <Celestar> fonsinchen: how do you do the routing?
12:54:48 <TrueBrain> fonsinchen: setting up a nice web view for git is hard .. mercurial is much easier for that task :)
12:54:50 <fonsinchen> I calculate everything on the link graph assembled from statistics collected when vehicles arrive
12:55:00 <blathijs> TrueBrain: Just slap on gitweb and your done?
12:55:08 <fonsinchen> Then I solve a multi-commodity flow problem on the link graph
12:55:09 <blathijs> TrueBrain: Though I admit the hg approach is even better
12:55:10 <TrueBrain> blathijs: needs cgi/perl
12:55:24 <blathijs> TrueBrain: Good point :-)
12:55:24 <fonsinchen> and map the flows back into stations
12:55:40 <orudge> Rubidium: I think the values I quoted in the "donate to the forums" spiel was awstats-logged HTTP transfer only, rather than overall server bandwidth usage
12:55:43 <fonsinchen> then I assign destinations according to the most underprovided flows
12:56:08 <orudge> since I didn't have consistent logs going back to 2007 or whenever for server bandwidth, due to server changes and datacentre changes and other such things
12:56:46 <fonsinchen> and mind that the linkgraph calculations take place in their own threads, so I have a lot of time there
12:57:03 <Celestar> fonsinchen: will that system run on somelow low-power hardware?
12:57:12 <Celestar> i.e. not a full-fledged PC
12:57:24 <fonsinchen> but large games won't run on small machines anyway
12:57:38 <Celestar> (read: an althon 3500+ is not low-power hardware) :P
12:57:46 <fonsinchen> There is still potential for optimization, if problems occur ...
12:57:57 <jonty-comp> I have an athlon 3500+! :D
12:57:58 <fonsinchen> I just don't have a small machine to test on
12:58:24 <Celestar> well, take a Centrino notebook and lock the CPU to the lower possible frequency
12:58:45 <fonsinchen> dosbox sounds like a good idea
12:58:53 <TrueBrain> install ESX(i) on a box and limit the CPU to 600 MHz :p
12:58:55 <fonsinchen> It runs fine on my 800Mhz Ibook
12:59:02 <fonsinchen> but thats not really small
12:59:16 <Celestar> where in your code does the main stuff happen? ;)
12:59:37 <fonsinchen> linkgraph.*, demands.*, mcf.*, flowmapper.*
13:00:02 <Celestar> somehow the link you gave me doesn'T have those files?
13:00:09 <fonsinchen> and I rewrote the vehicle loading system.
13:00:26 <fonsinchen> you have to check out cd-gui
13:00:47 <fonsinchen> there are hierarchical branches
13:01:16 <fonsinchen> master->capacities->components->demands->mcf->flowmapping-core->flowmapping-vehload->cd-gui
13:01:31 <fonsinchen> each one implements a certain milestone
13:01:40 <fonsinchen> on top of the previous
13:02:17 <Celestar> merging the order rewrite is a pita
13:02:58 <fonsinchen> Celestar, yours or mine?
13:03:19 <glx> Celestar: yeah cargodest is highly integrated in orders
13:03:38 <Yexo> fonsinchen: your new source files are missing from source.list
13:03:47 <Celestar> I don'T find the new source files :P
13:03:52 <Celestar> neither does 'find' :P
13:04:06 <Yexo> Celestar: what did you execute?
13:04:20 <Celestar> glx: well, there's always the "remove whole order list" - "add whole order list" - approach
13:04:25 <Celestar> Yexo: what he said ;)
13:05:09 <TrueBrain> hmm .. I now realise the compile-farm can't process branches :p
13:05:42 <petern> i didn't think anyone used them ;p
13:06:20 <Celestar> you've written your own graph tool fonsinchen ?
13:06:20 <Yexo> we just publish every branch in a seperate repo
13:06:23 <TrueBrain> anyway: WT3 .. database redesign :(
13:06:55 <fonsinchen> I only need Dijkstra and also a special modification of it
13:07:06 <fonsinchen> boost is too much overhead for that
13:07:14 <TrueBrain> boost always is ... :)
13:07:31 <fonsinchen> and my dijkstra is about 10 lines
13:08:03 <TrueBrain> cargod*e*st without boost .. now that would be nice ;) :p
13:08:36 <Celestar> what's your problem with boost, TrueBrain ?
13:08:50 <TrueBrain> Celestar: big ... an other dep ...
13:09:05 <Celestar> well, that's why openttd is not an operating system :P
13:09:09 <TrueBrain> even more as you only use a VERY small portion of it .. and a few distros don't allow you to install only that part :)
13:09:17 <fonsinchen> I actually tried with boost, but I realized the code didn't get shorter but longer
13:09:27 <planetmaker> Celestar, but if you could do without it would make the whole thing a lot lighter IMO
13:09:34 <fonsinchen> I had to write lots of conversion code and accessors
13:09:40 <Celestar> lighter in what way?
13:09:40 <planetmaker> from the overhead side :)
13:09:57 <planetmaker> on dependencies size
13:09:59 <Celestar> lighter in not using a tested and stable graph library and using my own? ;)
13:10:12 <TrueBrain> Celestar: we even have our own std::map routines :p
13:10:19 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD is _that_ argogant ;)
13:10:28 <Celestar> yeah which I still consider ... unwise
13:10:30 <TrueBrain> (damn, my typing is off today :p)
13:10:33 <planetmaker> of course it doesn't matter that I never manage to setup boost properly on my laptop
13:11:39 <fonsinchen> Well, the conversion code and the accessors are just as error-prone as writing your own graph library. If I had to use multiple different graph algorithms, I'd use boost. But I don't.
13:12:24 <Celestar> well I'll test your system with about 1000 vehicles over the weekend probably :P
13:12:25 <Rubidium> std::list/std::vector requires copying structs when inserting, which means pointless copying around of data causing noticable! slowdowns. As a result we implemented our own version that doesn't needlessly copy data around
13:12:53 <Celestar> fonsinchen: why don'T you just basically take the ideas from my GUI? ;)
13:13:08 <fonsinchen> I tried, but I didn't understand the code
13:13:18 <fonsinchen> Also I have a better idea for the station GUI
13:13:22 <Celestar> go ahead with questions
13:14:10 <Rubidium> when are you going to fix the cargodest bugs? ;)
13:14:20 <fonsinchen> I'll make three "group" and four "sort" buttons. Then you can sort by number, source, nexthop, destination and group by source, nexthop, destination in any order you like
13:14:41 <Celestar> Rubidium: lemme first try to SOMEHOW integrate the order changes
13:15:49 <Celestar> which is a pita from what ict
13:16:39 <Celestar> so .. how could we team up?
13:16:58 <Celestar> or converge the ideas :P
13:17:28 <Celestar> I don'T mind throwing out boost :P
13:17:36 * TrueBrain makes a little dance
13:17:38 <Celestar> I just wanted the thing to work first
13:18:10 <fonsinchen> Yes, I'd really like to team up.
13:20:13 <Celestar> Rubidium: I somehow knkow that :P
13:20:57 <fonsinchen> Celestar, which ideas from your project do you think are missing from mine?
13:21:21 <Celestar> I like the routing part of mine (i.e. that code that decides whether something is unloaded or not). I don't like the generation part (i.e. deciding which destination a cargopacket gets)
13:23:05 <Celestar> the routing part needs the balancing component
13:23:22 <Celestar> got some drafts for that, but I'll have alook at your code first.
13:23:30 <Celestar> the generation part is .. eh .. not done at all.
13:23:37 <Celestar> I just plugged in some randomizer to test stuff :P
13:24:02 <Celestar> what your code misses? dunno :P
13:24:10 <fonsinchen> Your routing can not easily be merged into my code. I don't "route". I calculate a distribution. When a packet starts its journey it doesn't know where it will end up. At every station the flows are examined and then a new nexthop is decided on. If that nexthop is the station the vehicle will travel to next, the cargo stays on board. Otherwise it's unloaded or transfered
13:24:30 <Celestar> well the packet has a target, hasn'T it?
13:24:37 <dihedral> network.cpp:449 <- somethings wrong here (in my assumption)
13:24:47 <fonsinchen> the packet has a source and a next hop. Each station has a flow mapping
13:25:03 <petern> file a proper bug report, eh?
13:25:26 <fonsinchen> when a packet from a certain source arrives at a station it is assigned to the most underprovided flow from that source going through the station.
13:25:27 <Celestar> then you don't have specific destinations?
13:25:49 <Celestar> how do you determine whether something is "underprovided" ?
13:26:03 <petern> heh, what stops something bouncing back & forth? heh
13:26:11 <fonsinchen> The MCF solver calculates a plan for the flows through each station
13:26:26 <fonsinchen> With each packet traversing a station I update the actual flow
13:26:38 <TrueBrain> smells like Internet version 1 :)
13:26:46 <TrueBrain> hmm .. version 2, sorry :p
13:26:47 <fonsinchen> The difference between plan and actual flow is the over- or underprovisioning of the flow
13:27:08 <Celestar> so what decides how many people want to go from town A to town B ?
13:27:14 <fonsinchen> the demand function
13:27:22 <fonsinchen> it is run before calculating the mcf
13:27:35 <fonsinchen> the mcf tries to satisfy the demands as well as possible
13:27:41 <fonsinchen> multi-commodity flow problem
13:27:52 <Celestar> that seems like a 100% different approach ;)
13:28:02 <Celestar> Rubidium: I'll need help with the orderlist rewrite ;)
13:28:15 <Celestar> we might want to pursue both and see what comes out :P
13:28:23 <TrueBrain> Celestar / fonsinchen: I think it would be nice if you 2 can somehow merge those 2 ideas and make one very nice idea out of it :)
13:28:35 <Rubidium> why do people always need me?
13:28:44 <Celestar> I'm open for ideas. how do we merge the two ideas?
13:29:06 <Gekz> Rubidium: you are important to society. Bask.
13:29:30 <TrueBrain> Celestar: you calculate the route of a packet at creation, or?
13:29:48 <Celestar> TrueBrain: no. I determine its destination.
13:30:34 <fonsinchen> I intentionally didn't do it that way. You don't have the big picture at every packet creation
13:30:38 <TrueBrain> so if I read you two correctly, the 'flow per station' is not really depending on either idea; it is just one method to do it, right?
13:30:51 <Yexo> isn't it possible to use fonsinchens routing to fix the routing distribution of Celestars aproach?
13:31:17 <TrueBrain> fonsinchen: as if I understand your idea correctly, the demand is calculated before any routing is done, right?
13:31:32 <fonsinchen> then distribution is calculated
13:31:33 <TrueBrain> so the destionation is kind of known, in that idea
13:31:40 <fonsinchen> then it is mapped into vehicle loading
13:32:04 <fonsinchen> but the mcf solver may find out that demands cannot be mapped
13:32:07 <TrueBrain> so, the 'flow per station' is independant and can be removed from yours, or added to Celestar's (just for my idea, not a suggestion :p)
13:32:10 <fonsinchen> then cargo is sent somewhere else
13:32:35 <Celestar> I'm not sure about that "somewhere else" idea.
13:32:37 <TrueBrain> I somehow dislike that part of your idea, where I like that part in Celestar's idea :)
13:32:51 <Celestar> imagine you have a shitload of people wanting to go from A to B.
13:32:58 <Celestar> A to B is horribly underserved.
13:33:02 <Celestar> what happens with the people?
13:33:16 <Forked> they bitch at the manager?
13:33:17 <fonsinchen> Well, if the mcf finds out that it cannot send all packets to their destination, then the sum of flows originating from that station will be smaller than its supply
13:33:19 <TrueBrain> person at station A: I want to go to station B. at station C it turns out the mcfs tells it is not possible, and drops you off at station D .. I didn't want to go there!! :( :p
13:33:31 <Yexo> imo they should just wait at A untill you provide better service
13:34:33 <Yexo> unless there are lots of people waiting and they can go A->C->B (where the distance is not too big)
13:34:38 <TrueBrain> what is nice about fonsinchen's approach, is that you can map cargo over other routes to the same destination, a bit like internet works; if a link gets utilized too much, stuff gets routed over other legs where the utilization is lower
13:35:07 <Forked> trains running BGP? :)
13:35:07 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, sounds like what happens in the real world :P
13:35:09 <Yexo> TrueBrain: yes, that's what I ment with trying to integrate fonsinchens routing with Celestars destinations
13:35:09 <TrueBrain> (increasing latency if there wouldn't be any utilization, but still speeding up the network)
13:35:15 <TrueBrain> Forked: BGP is at a higher level :)
13:35:27 <Celestar> fonsinchen: lost me ;)
13:35:39 <TrueBrain> Yexo: glad I am not the only one who saw this integration option ;) :)
13:36:03 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: real world doesn't really work like that; people rather stand in traffic .... :p
13:36:21 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: stupid people
13:36:26 <Celestar> pax at A. wants to go to B. A->B underserved/overutilized. what happens to pax. waits or is "discarded" ?
13:36:30 <TrueBrain> Forked: well, in fact, it is a bit like BGP .. better to say: internet version 2 (we run on internet version 3)
13:37:03 <Yexo> Celestar: pax goes A->C->B if possible, otherwise it waits (and eventually is discarded, just like now)
13:37:20 <TrueBrain> Yexo: I think he meant to ask hor fonsinchen's idea works ;)
13:37:39 <Celestar> so he *will* go to B, no matter what (unless he .. expires :P)
13:37:49 <TrueBrain> from what I read, it will go somewhere :p
13:37:51 <Yexo> if I understood that correctly, the pax will just go to C and dropped of there
13:38:02 <TrueBrain> which is a bit nasty ;) :p
13:38:23 <Celestar> I'm still trying to wrap my brains around this :P
13:38:33 <Yexo> <Celestar> so he *will* go to B, no matter what (unless he .. expires :P) <- that's what I consider the best option, it's not what fonsinchens patch does
13:39:03 <TrueBrain> Forked: BGP = Border Gateway Protocol; it manages routes of the AS; inside such BGP there is also routing, which also works on utilization, which is a bit easier to understand ;)
13:39:26 <Forked> BGP always did my head in.. I have no trouble with OSPF
13:39:44 <Celestar> or let's ask the question differently. lots of people wanna go to P, and all routes into P are oversaturated. what happenes then?
13:39:57 <TrueBrain> Forked: well, OSPF is what I would suggest :)
13:40:12 <Yexo> Celestar: are you asking about fonsinchens patch, or what we think that should happen?
13:42:05 <fonsinchen> If the MCF cannot meet all the demands, the flows will be lower than the supply, but the cargo will still be mapped onto the routes in the same ratios, so all routes will be overloaded.
13:42:23 <fonsinchen> ... equally overloaded
13:42:36 <Celestar> so the cargo will stack up at some intermediate stations?
13:42:49 <Celestar> before the weakest link.
13:43:44 <TrueBrain> petern: do tell? :)
13:43:46 <petern> TrueBrain, BGP for company-company cargo transfer, OSPF for intracompany movements :P
13:44:17 <TrueBrain> although I would not suggest to implement the protocol; rather the idea behind the protocol ;)
13:44:27 <TrueBrain> (which mostly is: utilization detection)
13:44:45 <Forked> and of course different areas inside the company, with area 0 as the core
13:45:29 <TrueBrain> nice thing about that: in case of link failure (broken train), cargo immediatly gets rerouted over other routes :)
13:46:00 <fonsinchen> link failure in cargodist means the link's capacity decreases to 0
13:46:13 <fonsinchen> then all cargo waiting for that link is sent "anywhere"
13:46:21 <TrueBrain> what do you mean by "anywhere"
13:46:28 <TrueBrain> still in a direction which might end up to be the destionation
13:46:29 <fonsinchen> which means traditional distribution
13:46:31 <TrueBrain> or can it float for ever?
13:46:52 * Celestar thinks of testing this over the weekend
13:46:54 <fonsinchen> like before cargo distribution
13:47:04 <TrueBrain> fonsinchen: so that part I like more about Celestar's idea ;)
13:47:06 <fonsinchen> and flows for that link are deleted
13:47:16 <TrueBrain> your routing mechanism, his destionation mechanism ;)
13:47:22 <fonsinchen> future cargo is then routed over a different link
13:47:29 <TrueBrain> petern: wouldn't we be able to make a pathfinder based on OSPF? :)
13:48:00 <Celestar> TrueBrain: yes. and we have that basically :P
13:48:10 <Celestar> OSPF is dijkstra, isn't it?
13:48:34 <TrueBrain> what I meant is that of each leg in the network, you calculate the utilization
13:48:36 <Celestar> two more seconds and you say "yes"
13:48:38 <TrueBrain> and route trains based on that information
13:48:58 <Celestar> well. that's not how it works IRL :P
13:49:00 <TrueBrain> where each leg receives a score (instead of length :p)
13:49:33 <Sacro> is this how you rate girls?
13:49:42 <TrueBrain> Celestar: I have absolutely no idea how trains are routed in real life :p
13:50:06 <Celestar> the route of every train is predetemined.
13:50:14 <TrueBrain> which fails for OpenTTD :)
13:50:47 <petern> feel free to implement manual routing
13:50:51 <petern> might save a little cpu ;)
13:51:00 <TrueBrain> petern: omg ..... the idea alone :)
13:51:18 <petern> i have no idea how the UI for that would work :p
13:51:20 <TrueBrain> how to you calculate utilization for a train .. hmm ... :)
13:52:09 <Celestar> Aali: I heard you merged cargodest?
13:52:31 <Celestar> over the order list rewrite?
13:54:32 <Celestar> TrueBrain: that is true
13:54:38 <Celestar> every line is a train
13:55:09 <Celestar> the ones going in one direction is one track, the lines going in the other direction is the other track
13:55:32 <Celestar> horizontal coordinate is the time, vertical the position along the track
13:55:56 <Celestar> EVERYTHING (schedules, platform usage, etc) is derived from those graphs
13:59:29 <TrueBrain> how much CPU goes into pathfinding, on a map of say 3000 vehicles?
13:59:52 <TrueBrain> if I remember correctly, most time goes into TrainController or what ever it was called, but I don't know for what reason anymore :)
14:00:08 <Rubidium> for actually moving the vehicles
14:00:17 <TrueBrain> does that take the most time?!
14:00:17 <Rubidium> (and updating their state)
14:00:47 <Celestar> TrueBrain: you can see where the trains stop (vertical lines)
14:01:24 <TrueBrain> Celestar: I am so glad it is not relevant for OpenTTD :) Ghehe :)
14:01:24 <Celestar> TrueBrain: the slope shows the speed
14:01:37 <Rubidium> I haven't done much profiling lately though
14:01:54 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: if you have the time, please run one for me :) I truly wonder :)
14:02:17 <TrueBrain> he just leaves without saying goodbye? :(
14:02:30 <Rubidium> he pressed the wrong button ;)
14:02:47 <TrueBrain> petern: my guess: priority :p
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14:03:12 <Celestar> petern: different train types
14:03:26 <Celestar> petern: normally you have labels for the lines etc, but they'Re removed in that image
14:04:17 <petern> hmm, in this one vertical is time and horizontal is position
14:07:35 <petern> let's add that to ottd :p
14:08:23 <Celestar> finally organized schedules :D
14:08:40 <TrueBrain> omg ... that would be VERY hard ... :p
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14:11:30 <Aylomen> Is there any bridge-set that works with CS Railroad Tracks?
14:11:30 <TrueBrain> what does TrainLocoHandler do (which takes the most time)
14:11:58 <Rubidium> don't know, check the code
14:12:07 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: it is in the gprof :p
14:12:10 <TrueBrain> the reason I ask :)
14:12:16 <dihedral> how is this called: core/tcp_game.cpp:NetworkRecvStatus NetworkClientSocket::CloseConnection()
14:12:19 <dihedral> or rather from where?
14:13:09 <dihedral> NetworkCloseClient() is called twice
14:13:35 <dihedral> once from network_server.cpp when the client connection dies, and then after that from core/tcp_game.cpp
14:13:45 <dihedral> and that results in the 'connection lost' message :-P
14:14:36 <Rubidium> then NetworkCloseClient didn't close the connection...
14:15:05 <TrueBrain> tnx btw Rubidium :)
14:15:18 <dihedral> funny, because if it did not then NetworkCloseClient would result in the 'connection lost' message being printed twice
14:15:20 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: loco handler seems to be doing pathfinding related stuff; pbs, signals and the like
14:15:34 <Rubidium> traincontroller does the moving
14:16:44 <Rubidium> the hashtable thing's probably the pathfinder (all optimisations make the results someone unreliable)
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15:27:01 <TrueBrain> pff .. spend a good hour rewriting WT3 database to do what I want it to do :(
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15:28:33 <MapperOG> can someone give me a hint (how) it is possible to connect a habour and a trainstation?
15:28:43 <TrueBrain> put them next to eachother
15:28:51 <TrueBrain> make a bus line between them
15:29:46 <Sacro> hold down control when you build
15:30:54 <TrueBrain> okay, not really :)
15:33:40 <MapperOG> what does ctrl do? (I'm on multiplayer, so I wouldn't like to cheat)
15:33:50 <TrueBrain> it is not a cheat :) I was joking
15:34:05 <MapperOG> thing is that it seems I'd have to build a bus line, since they're on different levels
15:34:12 <SmatZ> there's no other way to win :-p
15:37:25 <MapperOG> -- You Got FAILED!!!!!!!!!!!!! -- o0
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15:43:39 <MapperOG> hm.. so that's the reason why people protect their company with a password..
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15:53:27 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I hope it is less of a flame than the reply he posted :)
15:55:25 <frosch123> he, I guess he forgot himself what he implemented
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16:28:47 <MapperOG> wha does the Participant tab in openttd multiplayer column say? (i.e. 3/16 - 7/8) ?
16:29:14 <MapperOG> current player/max player - current numb. company/max. company ?
16:30:05 <TrueBrain> wow, did you come up with that on your own? :p :p
16:30:15 <TrueBrain> glad those numbers are so self explaining .. makes you wonder why you asked in the first place :)
16:31:20 <MapperOG> (I'm so lonely, I just wanted to start a conversation :P )
16:33:07 <TrueBrain> TrueBrain is currently not available; please try again later
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16:40:38 <MapperOG> which industry needs copper?
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16:50:42 <frosch123> hehe, how did we manage to make sirkoz start coding newgrfs :o
16:54:15 <DaleStan> I dunno. But don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
16:56:18 <Sacro> DaleStan: you should if it came from the greeks
16:57:19 <petern> problem with building roads everywhere is towns expand and prevent building tracks :/
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17:06:18 <MapperOG> petern: when you pay the city enough money, they won't mind?!
17:11:28 <petern> oh, the train wasn't full, heh
17:11:38 <petern> made a bit more on the return trip
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17:34:38 <batti5> Hi, is the OTTD Autoupdate sourcecode avalabile free?, im interesed to port it to a other os
17:36:19 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16067 /branches/NewGRF_ports/: [NewGRF_Ports] -Cleanup: remove as requested...
17:36:28 <Xaroth> but I'm working on something simmilar, batti5
17:36:34 <Xaroth> which -will- be open source
17:36:39 <Xaroth> and portable to other OS.... somewhat
17:36:58 <Spoons> Looks like delphi, probably easier to rewrite. :)
17:37:11 *** Spoons is now known as FauxFaux
17:37:22 <batti5> <Xaroth> may i give a hand?
17:37:28 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16068 /branches/cpp_gui/: [cpp_gui] -Cleanup: remove unmaintainted obsoleted C++ GUI branch
17:38:07 <Xaroth> oo, SF FINALLY approved the project..
17:38:26 <Xaroth> ... dangerous ground there FauxFaux :P
17:38:36 <Xaroth> most Java people hate .net, and vice versa :P
17:39:56 <Rubidium> FauxFaux: C# makes it easy to make unportable for that 'portable' platform
17:40:19 <Xaroth> Rubidium likes Java over .net .
17:40:47 * FauxFaux is Java too, mostly 'cos c# is just Java with some safety removed.
17:41:11 <Rubidium> Xaroth: it's not because I don't know C# ;)
17:41:25 <TrueBrain> FauxFaux: now that is plain bullshit
17:41:40 <Rubidium> I think I've actually spent more time with C# than with Java
17:41:42 <batti5> do you know a site to learn more about java programing?
17:42:32 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: do you actually know C#?
17:42:34 <Xaroth> batti5: i learned C# by looking at other people's code... then again, i learned almost all the programming languages i read/write that way
17:42:40 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: sadly enough :(
17:43:13 <Rubidium> so you know you can do pointer magic in C#?
17:44:10 <Xaroth> Rubidium: trying to do pointer magic in C# is asking for trouble tbqfh :P
17:44:37 <Rubidium> what kind of barbeque?
17:44:48 <Xaroth> to be quite fookin honest.
17:47:44 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I was refering to the comment: C# is just Java
17:48:18 <Rubidium> oh, so not about C# is Java without safety ;)
17:48:44 <TrueBrain> indirectly, of course, but not what you suggested because of the word 'safety'
17:50:56 <TrueBrain> but if you really want 'safety', use Pascal
17:52:53 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: translators * r16069 /trunk/src/lang/ (brazilian_portuguese.txt korean.txt slovenian.txt):
17:52:53 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2009-04-16 17:52:36
17:52:53 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 12 fixed by tucalipe (12)
17:52:53 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: korean - 8 fixed by darkttd (8)
17:52:55 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: slovenian - 10 fixed by Necrolyte (10)
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18:23:11 * frosch123 ponders replying to the pm, if it wouldn't just be so pointless...
18:25:43 <TrueBrain> frosch123: be the better person :) Like we all try to be :p
18:27:35 <frosch123> well, he interprets certain stuff into my review of his specs in a very wrong way. though that is not hard as the review does not consist of whole sentences :)
18:29:50 <frosch123> " - additional bytes to tilelayouts: ground type and shape (very silly)" <- like he relates the "very silly" to the feature of having irregular airports...
18:30:19 <frosch123> though otoh, maybe I should have reread that stuff before posting in public :)
18:30:41 <petern> nah, he deliberately misreads i think :p
18:30:46 <petern> he likes getting wound up
18:30:59 <TrueBrain> TypeError: coercing to Unicode: need string or buffer, NoneType found
18:41:39 <TrueBrain> grr .. mixing old object files with newer source files
18:41:43 <TrueBrain> bad Python, bad bad Python
18:41:56 <Rubidium> broken pythondepend?
18:48:50 <TrueBrain> glx / Yexo / planetmaker / any other translator: can it ever happen dat a 'case' of a translation has an other {G=} prefix than the main translation?
18:49:30 <TrueBrain> a thing that comes before the rest
18:49:32 <TrueBrain> we call that a prefix :p
18:50:08 <planetmaker> yeah. And what's the main translation?
18:50:14 <TrueBrain> the one without the case
18:50:15 <planetmaker> I think I need an example of what you mean
18:50:22 <TrueBrain> I don't know if your language carries it
18:50:25 <TrueBrain> do you use gender and cases?
18:50:41 <TrueBrain> then I can give you a live example :)
18:50:45 <planetmaker> Well, I translate German :)
18:50:57 <planetmaker> But you can give me a Dutch one, too
18:51:28 <Rubidium> german doesn't use cases
18:51:38 <Rubidium> neither do Dutch or French
18:51:49 <planetmaker> uhm... TrueBrain : do you mean that the gender changes?
18:52:07 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: given my typo of 'an other' instead of 'another', yes
18:52:14 <TrueBrain> STR_4803_POWER_STATION
18:52:28 <planetmaker> Well, the gender of a word doesn't change
18:52:30 <TrueBrain> German indeed has no cases
18:52:31 <Rubidium> Aylomen: no in OpenTTD's translation kind of sense, i.e. what TrueBrain means
18:52:39 <planetmaker> but the arcticle changes according to the case.
18:52:56 <planetmaker> but that's no gender change
18:55:50 <frosch123> TrueBrain: you mean like "girlfriend" and "boyfriend", which have a gender prefix?
18:56:13 <TrueBrain> frosch123: YES! That was EXACTLY what I meant :p
18:56:17 <TrueBrain> (can you feel the sarcasm? :))
18:56:29 <TrueBrain> if you would have said: {G=girl}friend and {G=boy}friend
18:56:38 <TrueBrain> I would have agree'd with less sarcasm btw ;)
18:57:33 <frosch123> I have no idea how that {G ..} stuff works :)
18:57:49 <TrueBrain> :) and I wish I didn't know :(
19:01:22 <glx> TrueBrain: I never used cases ;)
19:08:47 <glx> hmm ask SmatZ, he's a translator for a language using cases
19:13:39 <frosch123> can you actually describe "{PERSON} is the {G boy girl weird}friend of {PERSON}"? E.g. tell the {G} to use the {G=} of the first string
19:15:19 <frosch123> really, there is something useful there?
19:15:19 <TrueBrain> but I guess you are correct :)
19:15:22 <TrueBrain> as far as I understand it :)
19:16:35 <TrueBrain> but what I don't understand, why in the above case, this works: {G 0 boy girl weird}, and why we didn't pick a method like {G:0 boy girl weird}
19:16:42 <TrueBrain> easier to process in scripts :p
19:17:13 <TrueBrain> glx: a few plural forms are missing on the site ;) :p
19:17:47 <planetmaker> glx: latin doesn't use prefix. It uses postfix
19:18:02 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: {G=}prefix is set by OpenTTD
19:18:06 <TrueBrain> has NOTHING to do with the language ...
19:18:07 <glx> planetmaker: you don't understand :)
19:18:36 <glx> {G=} defines the gender of a string
19:18:56 <TrueBrain> the 'prefix' in my question has to do that {G=?} comes in front of the translation
19:19:04 <TrueBrain> as you also have {G ? ?} tags in the middle of a string
19:19:41 <planetmaker> glx: yes, I understand that. I've seen that in the translation
19:21:50 <glx> the question was if {G=} should be in str, str.case1, str.case2, ... or only in str
19:22:57 <glx> STR_8102_RAILROAD_LOCOMOTIVE :{G=f}lokomotiva
19:22:57 <glx> STR_8102_RAILROAD_LOCOMOTIVE.acc :{G=f}lokomotivu
19:22:57 <glx> STR_8102_RAILROAD_LOCOMOTIVE.dat :
19:24:16 <glx> SmatZ: aren't the empty .dat unneeded?
19:24:36 <Rubidium> depends, maybe it's correct
19:24:42 <Rubidium> (probably it isn't though)
19:25:05 <pavel1269> what means .acc ... .dat? :-)
19:25:17 <Rubidium> that're cases in strgen-speak
19:26:11 <pavel1269> well, we have 7 cases ... (czech)
19:26:23 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: it's always possible to change G 0 ... to G:0. It's probably not a lot of work in strgen, but WT2 would go crazy
19:27:00 <frosch123> pavel1269: nom gen dat acc voc loc ins big small
19:27:04 <SmatZ> I never noticed that missing
19:27:18 <frosch123> except "ins" quite latin
19:27:19 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: something to keep for WT3 than ;)
19:27:28 <glx> frosch123: big and small are probably fake cases
19:27:51 <frosch123> thought so :) but they misspelled "abl" as "ins"
19:28:20 <pavel1269> SmatZ: so just fill it with proper case and be happy? :-)
19:29:46 <planetmaker> I wouldn't call it "base translation" but "English original"
19:30:23 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: a) wrong channel, b) wrong channel :p
19:31:33 <Rubidium> d) and a few more ;)
19:32:28 <SmatZ> pavel1269: "lokomotivě"?
19:33:18 <SmatZ> nominativ, genitiv, dativ, akuzativ, vokal, lokal, instrumental? or how are the cases called :)
19:33:37 <pavel1269> its just our cases or .... ?
19:33:48 <frosch123> "instrumental"? that pretty sounds like "ablativ" :)
19:34:42 <SmatZ> :-p "ablativ" from spanish "ablar", or from english "able"? :)
19:34:54 <pavel1269> just wondering ... any vokal case defined? :-P
19:35:09 <frosch123> latin case: nominativ, genitiv, dativ, accusativ, vocativ, locativ, ablativ
19:35:49 <frosch123> though I learned that the romans couldn't handle "locativ" themself
19:36:41 <pavel1269> stupid language (czech) ...
19:37:43 <planetmaker> frosch123: I'd say there are 6 latin ones only: locativ is not quite a case... afair the old days ;)
19:38:40 <SmatZ> Ablative of Instrument = Instrumenta case ... or so
19:38:51 <Aylomen> ablative is more general I think
19:38:58 <frosch123> but latin uses ablativ also for instrumental stuff
19:39:10 <Aylomen> in latin it is the "ablativus instrumentalis"
19:39:13 <planetmaker> Ablative is kind of "by means of" or yeah... instrumental
19:39:38 <frosch123> i.e. just like accusativ is also used to express "towards"
19:40:03 <frosch123> but that is not the main usage of accusativ
19:40:35 <Aylomen> but the expression towards needs an preposition
19:41:16 <Rubidium> just drop cases... so much easier
19:41:25 <Aylomen> and the preposition needs the accusative
19:41:39 <SmatZ> Rubidium: you use 4 cases?
19:42:44 <Rubidium> SmatZ: well... depends on how you look at it
19:44:19 <frosch123> genitiv is also "obsolete" in certain parts of germany :p
19:44:47 * Rubidium always used the inventiv with German ;)
19:45:42 <Rubidium> can I make this sentence grammatically correct if all words are in plural? If yes... bingo!
19:46:28 <Rubidium> the teacher didn't like it, but ... the test was about grammar not making sentences that make sense
20:24:18 <fjb> Haven't been here quite a while. Have to catch up with all the news.
20:24:49 <SmatZ> nothing to see here, move around...
20:25:32 <Zuu> There is some lengthy discussions about (air)ports in the forums. Have not read todays yet :)
20:25:40 * fjb is busy reading the forum.
20:31:47 <planetmaker> much hate I sense in the airport discussions.
20:32:12 <planetmaker> ... and hate leads to suffering ;)
20:33:43 <Yexo> main problem I see there is that richk is angry because his implementation is not necesarily used
20:34:13 <Yexo> it's too bad he doesn't accept that fact and helps with another implementation
20:34:26 <TrueBrain> I think that '18' months of angryness is misplaced in any situation
20:34:44 <TrueBrain> they should put expire times on that :)
20:34:46 <Yexo> like how Celestar/fonsischen went in a discuttion about cargodest, albeit their completely different designs
20:35:15 <Belugas> ho... richk.. again...
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20:36:53 <Belugas> still on vacation, playing a lot with kiddo and with guitar ;)
20:37:03 <TrueBrain> :) That should be nice ;)
20:37:12 <Belugas> wor asked me to do a few stuff during the evening
20:37:22 <Belugas> i take the opportunity to wave hello
20:37:24 <SmatZ> Belugas: nice to hear :)
20:44:00 <Belugas> arrogant moron, that richk
20:45:08 <TrueBrain> Belugas: tnx for that summary :)
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20:45:54 <fjb> I don't find the link to the precompiled binaries (beside the release version).
20:46:21 <Zuu> I think he also have withrawn the realwordairports.grf if I'm not mistaken.
20:47:12 <Zuu> At least reading the first post in his thread it seams so.
20:50:42 <Yexo> realworldairports.grf has been long gone
20:50:56 <Belugas> TrueBrain, it was like that since day 1. it's the way I want it or it's sabotage
20:51:41 <TrueBrain> he always kept out of my way, so I have no idea :) But I believe you .. you rarely have a negative strong opinion about someone, so :)
20:51:41 <Belugas> he cannot take a no for an answer, he wants stuff being done for him, he prefers hacks and shortcuts
20:53:35 <Belugas> i don't? buwhahahaha!!!!
20:54:43 <Belugas> TrueBrain, you remember all the work we did on the tgp branch? He called it sabotage
20:55:15 <Belugas> we had the insane idea to look at his code and make it better. how silly of us to do so
20:55:39 <Forked> hacks make things more realistic!
20:56:16 <Belugas> i told him right from the start that the callback system would be better than his approach. he did not jumped on hte wagon mainly because he did not understood the callback system at all
20:56:40 <Belugas> and if he does not understand, it's surely because it's evil and nor worth working on it
20:56:55 <Belugas> and yes inded, we are the arrogant devs
20:58:49 <TrueBrain> Belugas: see, that I completely missed that he didn't like we finished TGP (well .. it was like 60% done or so :p)
20:59:02 <TrueBrain> I just thought he was happy we did that :) Clearly .. I was wrong ;) Don't care .. I am happy we did finish TGP :p
20:59:06 <Belugas> nonono in his mind, it was finished
20:59:12 <TrueBrain> oh, that is funny :)
20:59:53 <Belugas> and the best, is to see him coming in and asking us to sinc newgrf port... yeahright
20:59:54 <TrueBrain> landscape generator
20:59:56 <pavel1269> the great paradise? :-)
21:00:25 <TrueBrain> anyway, I suggest to all to put a big IGNORE on his head, and wait till that storm has passed ;)
21:00:32 <petern> Terrible Generated Poo
21:00:53 <pavel1269> thought about that also :-P
21:01:12 <Xaroth> sf.net svn upload speed deluxe
21:01:27 <TrueBrain> Xaroth: don't say we didn't warn you!
21:01:39 <Xaroth> but by lack of better.. etc
21:02:22 <Zuu> No idea if it is any faster though
21:02:48 <petern> we could do with another better generator really :s
21:03:15 <TrueBrain> petern: this one is already ^1000 better than the old one
21:03:19 <Belugas> yeah... one with better chi
21:03:37 <Belugas> but it does have flaws, TrueBrain
21:03:43 <petern> TrueBrain, i don't agree
21:03:58 <TrueBrain> petern: you find the old one better?! Scary :)
21:04:03 <Belugas> like it could have "regions" instead of been uniform
21:04:57 <Yexo> petern: I've a working patch that allows you to script a new map generator in squirrel
21:05:07 <Yexo> makes it easy to debug / share :)
21:05:44 <pavel1269> again stupid chi ... whats that? :-)
21:06:01 <pavel1269> i knwo ... sth about ... terrain looking
21:06:08 <pavel1269> not all uniform and so on ... but ...
21:06:12 <Belugas> it's indeed a stupidity, pavel1269
21:06:18 <petern> Belugas, yes, regions good
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21:06:46 <Yexo> regions are hard to code though, if you don't want the regions to be uniform
21:06:58 <fjb> How about rivers then? *hides*
21:07:08 <petern> i like the old generator because it provides a mix of flat and non-flat land
21:07:23 <Yexo> fjb: my patch will have support for that
21:07:24 <pavel1269> true, i use him also :-)
21:07:51 <pavel1269> for very hilly, tgp is better but ....
21:08:15 <pavel1269> i wonder, how will you create those rivers :-)
21:09:09 <pavel1269> like ... if i cut it in half... will it create a lake and find new way to a sea? :D
21:09:23 <petern> that's not a function of the landscape generator
21:09:33 <petern> it's already generated then :p
21:09:54 <petern> oh, and another gripe with richk: those stupid extra airports :s
21:10:20 <pavel1269> well, landscape generator create a river ... but just a "start" ? .... and other msut be handled somewhere else :-)
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21:11:00 <Zuu> pavel1269: I guess that is up to the terain generator script.
21:11:32 <pavel1269> Zuu: and if i cut ingame that river ... its no longer a river :P
21:11:57 <petern> in game behaviour is probably a bit out of scope of the landscape generator, though
21:12:16 <pavel1269> i am talking about rivers :-)
21:12:17 <Yexo> pavel1269: as Zuu said, it's up to the script on how it generates them
21:12:39 <pavel1269> true, but i am dreaming here :-D
21:12:49 <Yexo> it's only about generating them (together with the map), not about lively rivers or stuff like that
21:12:56 <Yexo> planetmaker was working on that some time ago iirc
21:13:29 <TrueBrain> I wish you all a very good night :) I will be back monday or so :) Enjoy your weekend!!
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21:13:39 <planetmaker> good night & nice weekend, TrueBrain
21:15:05 <planetmaker> But it's not really "lively" rivers. The biggest obstacle for me right then was to come up with a decent path finder for rivers.
21:15:32 <planetmaker> But given a decent pathfinder, it should be feasable to build lively rivers upon that.
21:16:00 <pavel1269> nice, will look at it maybye tomorow :-)
21:16:21 <Belugas> petern, yeah, big aiports... and remember, we had (again) to battle very hard for him to not include them all...
21:16:29 <pavel1269> but my c/c++ skills are ..... cant see that deep
21:17:05 <Xaroth> thar, updated AutoTTD thread with codez
21:19:15 <planetmaker> pavel1269: look in the folder (w/o that filename) for some images)
21:23:32 <pavel1269> but, the last one .... the very hilly one .... its not ideal
21:24:00 <Yexo> pavel1269: it's not about those screenshots, those are just from a (pretty simple) script I wrote to test the system
21:24:17 <Yexo> the idea is that it should be much easier to write your own map generator
21:24:21 <pavel1269> i know, you are making that squirell thingy like AI ...
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21:24:38 <Yexo> just modifying a few parameter in the main.nut I provide will already give different results
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21:39:02 <planetmaker> Yexo: that allows access to the path finders as it's using squirrel, right?
21:39:23 <Yexo> not directly, but the AI pathfinder libraries can be copied
21:39:47 <planetmaker> what would be your position wrt resorting to that even during normal game e.g. when a river needs to find a new path due to terraforming?
21:39:56 <planetmaker> is the use of squirrel then bad?
21:40:03 <Zuu> PAXLink - download one every day and keeps the doctor away. :p (yes there comes a new version also today with a bug fix)
21:40:07 <planetmaker> oh.. and why the need to copy the pf?
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21:40:35 <planetmaker> that doesn't sound ... efficient ;)
21:40:38 <Yexo> maybe the pf doesn't need to be copied, but you don't want a road pathfidner nor a rail pathfidner, so you'll have to write your own anyway :p
21:40:46 <Yexo> the AyStar library can be used though
21:41:03 <planetmaker> Yexo: well... I think such PF could do actually. You just need to change the penalties.
21:41:13 <planetmaker> but yeah. a* should do, I guess
21:41:28 <Yexo> but for changing the penalties you'll have to make a copy :)
21:41:44 <planetmaker> Yexo: they're not configurable via parameter?
21:41:58 <Yexo> they are, but you don't want a river over a bridge, do you?
21:42:25 <planetmaker> natural aquaducts - don't you know them by the hundrets? ;)
21:42:32 <Yexo> and I can image some penalties special to riviers, like don't bend twice after eachother
21:43:05 <planetmaker> well... I wouldn't mind that actually.
21:43:23 *** DephNet[Paul] is now known as DephNet
21:43:30 <Yexo> the rail and road pathfinder share quite some code, but they are two different pathfinders (ie copied, not one pf configured via parameters)
21:43:43 <planetmaker> My approach was to use a general direction as kind of average over the last few steps of finding a path
21:43:54 <Yexo> about lively rivers, using squirrel code could be possible, but I dunno if that makes much sense
21:44:05 <Yexo> after all, it's not likely you want to write multiple implementations
21:45:00 <planetmaker> it was me who thought that the code could be re-used directly. But you knowing much more about them, I thought it a good idea to ask you about it :)
21:45:20 <Yexo> maybe it can, I dunno yet
21:45:30 <Yexo> I haven't started on the implementation supporting rivers yet
21:45:37 <planetmaker> So one might just copy & translate it into c++ with the correct penalties
21:45:48 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
21:46:03 <Yexo> that should be trivial, as squirrel is c-like
21:46:36 <planetmaker> he :) I haven't yet looked at squirrel at all, I have to admit
21:47:13 <planetmaker> but code is code and porting from one language to another is mostly not that difficult if one can get the structure
21:52:41 <planetmaker> anyway... I wish you a good night for now :)
21:52:58 <planetmaker> and all others, too
21:54:11 <SmatZ> good night, planetmaker :)
22:10:11 <petern> Yexo, so how's performance?
22:10:31 <Yexo> haven't tested that too well
22:10:35 <Yexo> depends on the script of course
22:11:09 <Yexo> I can generate the landscape in +- 1 second on my laptop
22:13:11 <Yexo> it's way too slow for big maps :(
22:13:55 <Yexo> 15 seconds for a 1024x1024 map
22:15:12 <Yexo> that may be because my script is slow though, dunno
22:15:20 <Yexo> I'll do some real testing tomorrow
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22:34:52 <Pikka> any ottd forum mods awake? :)
22:46:07 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
22:58:26 <Rubidium> Pikkaa: report the post you want to have changed and a mod will (eventually) find it
23:03:59 *** KritiK_ has joined #openttd
23:04:01 *** KritiK_ is now known as KritiK
23:06:54 <Nite_Owl> Need to feed - later all
23:14:09 *** mirra is now known as MapperOG
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23:26:01 *** KingJ is now known as kingj
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continue to next day ⏵
