IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2009-02-06
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00:07:43 <Belugas> jeah? i guess i shuld read jeez
00:25:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: Yexo * r15366 /trunk/src/ai/ (ai_gui.cpp ai_info.cpp ai_info.hpp ai_scanner.cpp): -Add [NoAI]: Add AddLabels() where you can define labels for the values of the settings in info.nut
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00:51:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15367 /trunk/src/sortlist_type.h: -Add: framework for filtering GUILists (Roujin)
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02:39:13 <Belugas> moinchi moinchi moinchi
02:39:26 <Belugas> but can't get his eyes out of the screen
02:39:36 <Belugas> andfingers out of the keyboard
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03:30:08 <sulik> I just installed OpenTTD 0.6.3 and started playing but after some time i noticed that all the computer (enemy) companies are only worth of $2 (after years & years)... all of them build around 2 trains, 4 vechiles, 1 plain or so on...
03:30:16 <sulik> any ideas how to fix this?
03:31:20 <glx> yes use nightlies (AI have been replaced)
03:31:59 <DephNet[Paul]> the "standard" AI is a little ... um ... crap
03:34:00 <SpComb> does OpenTTD have regression tests for the AI? :)
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03:38:25 <glx> but not all functions are tested
03:39:11 <Yexo> that's a regression test for openttd / the noai framework, not for an ai
03:39:46 <SpComb> mostly wondering what would happen if some commit accidentially lobotomized the default AI, how long would it take to notice? :P
03:40:05 <Yexo> SpComb: there is no default AI anymore
03:40:39 <sulik> hmm.. just installed the nightlies .. and fastfowarding the game
03:40:52 <sulik> no enemies.. :S but i chose the hard level
03:40:53 <Yexo> sulik: did you already download an AI?
03:41:05 <sulik> i have to download AI seperatly?
03:41:16 <Yexo> yes, in the main menu, try "Check online content"
03:44:43 <sulik> hmm.. downloaded all the AI's .. under ai settings.. put 6 enemies .. using random ai settings.. started a new game.. fast fowarding.. still nothing :S ?
03:45:48 <glx> press '²' to open the console and type "start_ai" if you want an AI immediatly
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03:55:41 <Yexo> sulik: did you succeed yet?
03:59:15 <De_Ghosty> WHEN SIGNAL IN TUNNELS?!?!
03:59:38 <sulik> started 7 enemies.. fast fowarding again... a lot of them got the company value only at $2 again.. some of them got $150,000 aswell.. strange all these using only vechiles :S
04:00:16 <Yexo> you're using difficulty level hard again? try it on easy, that might help
04:00:34 <sulik> hmm how that helps tho?
04:01:32 <Yexo> sulik: on easy, companies (your company but also AI companies) can get more loan, vehicles breakdown less often, the map is flatter, there is less water, etc.
04:01:36 <sulik> yes, 5 years passed and all of the AI's got only vechiles ... i remember in the past , when i was a child like 8 years ago or more hehe... the ai's weren't that dumb.. at least they built planes, railroads etc..
04:02:08 <Yexo> that depends on the AI you use
04:02:10 <DephNet[Paul]> sulik, try Pathzilla for planes and buses
04:02:46 <Yexo> pathzilla doesn't build planes
04:03:02 <Yexo> nocab also builds planes and ships
04:03:13 <sulik> hmm.. just reading about the AI descriptions in the game..
04:03:16 <Yexo> and admiralai also builds planes but also trains
04:03:32 <sulik> which AI is the hardest & has got all type of transport
04:03:44 <Yexo> there is no ai that uses all kind of transport
04:04:02 <Yexo> admiralai and nocab come closest (admiralai lacks ships and nocab lacks trains/trams)
04:04:02 <DephNet[Paul]> Yexo, doesnt it? my mistake, i know ive downloaded Pathzilla and Paxlink
04:04:32 <Yexo> sulik: because it's a lot of work to write an AI that uses 1 type of transport, and even more to write one that uses several types
04:05:57 <sulik> what about medieval ai ?
04:06:53 <Yexo> dunno, try it and see for yourself
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04:25:12 <De_Ghosty> how do i get the ai to start building?
04:25:50 <De_Ghosty> they jsut have a company with nothing
04:25:54 <Yexo> what does the ai debug panel show?
04:26:03 <Yexo> you can find it under the red question mark
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04:34:19 <Yexo> you need to download an AI first
04:34:30 <De_Ghosty> can i load em in middle of game?
04:34:36 <Yexo> in the main menu, try "Check online content"
04:40:08 <Yexo> the AIs are not threaded
04:40:19 <Yexo> what keeps crashing? The AIs or openttd?
04:43:33 <Yexo> anything special that causes it to crash? Or just randomly after starting some AIs?
04:44:22 <Yexo> can you open a bugreport at bugs.openttd.org with crash.dmp, crash.log and crash.sav?
04:45:02 <Yexo> AIs shouldn't be able to crash openttd, and I can't reproduce the crash here
04:45:43 <De_Ghosty> fuck have to login...
04:45:58 <De_Ghosty> ai should really be their own threads
04:46:12 <Yexo> why should they? They run in a vm
04:46:27 <Yexo> giving them their own threads is _very_ hard
04:46:36 <De_Ghosty> window can't seperate and proccess em
04:46:53 <De_Ghosty> ai should interact like a user
04:47:16 <De_Ghosty> then why is everything sitting on 1 core?
04:47:19 <Yexo> but that means they can only run in between executing commands and updating the game state
04:47:51 <Yexo> and everything is still one 1 core because everything depends on eachother
04:47:57 <De_Ghosty> they should be racing on their own
04:48:07 <Yexo> you can't have one thread building a rail line and another pathfinding
04:48:08 <De_Ghosty> grab a frame from the game
04:48:18 <De_Ghosty> and then send it back
04:48:46 <Yexo> so you propose to execute every frame once for every AI? That sounds like a lot of duplicate processing
04:49:02 <De_Ghosty> what happens when i brankrupts in single player?
04:49:21 <Yexo> you can't bankrupt in singleplayer
04:49:27 <De_Ghosty> i mean i have 3 core just idle
04:49:46 <De_Ghosty> they have more then enough powas to duplicate
04:49:48 <Yexo> and because of how openttd works that'll stay the same
04:50:02 <Yexo> De_Ghosty: you don't get the point, duplicating the work doesn't make openttd faster
04:50:37 <De_Ghosty> so the ai doesn't have to be process between updates
04:51:17 <Yexo> chances are that the time lost with synchronizing the threads loses the same amount of time you win by making the ai run in seperate threads
04:51:58 <Yexo> if it's too slow for your liking, you can decrease the #opcdes before AI is suspended in the advanced settings window
04:52:19 <De_Ghosty> is there a pub account i can use
04:52:25 <De_Ghosty> i don't want to register
04:52:55 <Yexo> I've a game running for 15 years with 10 AIs without a crash now
04:53:13 <Yexo> De_Ghosty: do you have another place you can upload the required files (crash.dmp/log/sav)?
05:00:25 <De_Ghosty> where is emergancy saved saved?
05:01:15 <Yexo> isn't it in the same folder as crash.log?
05:01:20 <Yexo> anyway, crash.dmp is way more important
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08:36:29 <petern> my boss has told me to work from home again :D
09:02:08 *** planetmas is now known as planetmaker
09:06:00 <petern> neither ext2ifs nor ext2fsd handle special characters properly :(
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09:20:38 <petern> special as in : or ?, which real OSes don't care about
09:22:44 * Prof_Frink makes a file named "C:\WINDOWS\system32\explorer.exe", just because he can
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09:24:20 <planetmaker> Prof_Frink: you should make it an alias to "format c:\"
09:24:35 <planetmaker> maybe d:\ is nice, too :P
09:25:03 <Prof_Frink> echo "rm -rf /" >'C:\WINDOWS\system32\explorer.exe'
09:27:12 <petern> i've just realised what is missing in my life
09:53:57 <planetmaker> And baked beans and scrambled eggs?
09:54:17 <planetmaker> The latter actually sounds quite tempting... going to make some :)
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10:13:32 <Roujin> thanks for adopting and committing my patch ;)
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10:21:22 <petern> Prof_Frink: bacon, bacon and bacon sandwich?
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10:25:10 <Rubidium> not bacon, beer, bacon? Just to have different 'layers'?
10:25:28 <petern> beer doesn't go with bacon!
10:26:30 <Roujin_> Rubidium: you made a little whoopsie: " 170 + * @param filter_data The data for filter on"
10:26:34 <Roujin_> and " 203 + * @param filter_data The data for filer on" ;)
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10:28:40 <Rubidium> I blame the NY-ish Times at which I did that ;)
10:28:55 <Roujin_> i'd rename it to "additional data passed to the filter function" or so to make clear that it's optional..
10:29:17 <Rubidium> Roujin_: you can probably find typos in comments everywhere ;)
10:29:39 <Roujin_> is that a reason to not correct them? ;)
10:30:16 <Rubidium> no, it's a reason for you to fix the other instances of typos ;)
10:30:56 <Roujin_> uh, and maybe that should be changed from a F == char pointer to a void pointer, in case someone wants to pass something else to a filter function..?
10:31:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15368 /trunk/src/ (ai/ai_info.cpp sortlist_type.h): -Fix: some typos in comments
10:31:21 <Roujin_> bye bye goes type safety of course..
10:31:33 <petern> a char pointer is char*
10:31:48 <Rubidium> template <typename T, typename F = char>
10:31:58 <petern> you've put the * in the wrong place :o
10:32:11 <Rubidium> what in there 'obstructs' anyone to use something else than a char?
10:32:38 <Rubidium> it's just a default template parameter
10:32:41 <petern> Rubidium, well if you want to send an int... you have to send a pointer to an int...
10:33:34 <Rubidium> who'd send an int? :)
10:34:32 <Roujin_> mmmh, "filter out all locos that cost > 50.000 ?"
10:35:01 <Roujin_> but, nah. who'd want (and who'd implement) that; something like this can be done by sorting
10:35:12 <Rubidium> that'd be a money ;)
10:35:42 <petern> filter on mass, speed, cargo type...
10:35:45 <petern> none of those requires a pointer
10:39:09 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15369 /trunk/src/sortlist_type.h: -Codechange: generalise the GUIList a bit so peter can write filters for cargo type, speed and mass ;)
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10:41:29 <Roujin_> heh, now we just need actual applications to make use of it ^^
10:43:04 <Roujin_> kinda ;) not the "haystack and needle" part though :D
10:45:17 <Roujin_> seems there were some issues regarding the OSK that you also fixed
10:46:55 <Roujin_> ah, and you inserted a more sane OnKeyPress function :)
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11:15:38 <SmatZ> about FS#2601, wouldn't it be better to have {CURRENCY} and {REDCURRENCY} that would be drawn in red if negative?
11:16:26 <SmatZ> ......... ^^^ ignore :-p
11:16:38 <SmatZ> it's something else than I thought...
11:17:09 <SmatZ> it already works that way
11:17:13 <petern> hmm, i need to warm my drives up
11:26:07 <planetmaker> [12:16] <SmatZ> it's something else than I thought... <-- hehe. Was the same for me :P
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11:32:18 <dihedral> planetmaker, when is it not :-P
11:32:48 * planetmaker goes looking for an old, large trout...
11:33:06 * planetmaker uses this rotten trout to slap dihedral
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11:57:39 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15370 /trunk/src/ (osk_gui.cpp querystring_gui.h): -Codechange: add a callback to tell the parent of an OSK that the string has changed instead of only marking the text box dirty.
11:59:03 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15371 /trunk/src/ (string.cpp string_func.h): -Codechange: add an implementation of strcasestr for when _GNU_SOURCE isn't defined.
12:00:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15372 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt network/network_content_gui.cpp): -Feature: filter the 'content' based on the tag/name. Based on a patch by Roujin.
12:02:20 <SmatZ> @r15371 I guess performance isn't the issue :-p
12:02:47 <Rubidium> SmatZ: when it becomes an issue you may rewrite it ;)
12:06:07 <Roujin_> well, is it implemented any better in _GNU_SOURCE ?
12:07:45 <petern> are you doubting Rubidium's algorithm efficiency?
12:09:56 <Roujin> petern: I was just following on what SmatZ said ;)
12:10:18 <Roujin> or did you just mean him, in the first place?
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12:17:07 <petern> having the content window open does seem to use a lot of cpu
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12:30:28 <Roujin> bool Filter(FilterFunction *decide, const F *filter_data), doesn't return what the comment says it does
12:31:11 <Roujin> * @return true if the list has been altered by filtering <-- right now it returns false, if filtering is set to "off" and true, if set to "on".
12:32:08 <Roujin> it'd need some "bool changed = false", "changed = true" in the inner if, then "return changed"
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12:35:57 <Roujin> oh and I think the function void FilterContentList() does something strange...
12:36:02 <Roujin> YOUR CAPS KEY IS BROKEN
12:36:38 <Xaroth> caps doesn't uppercase 1's to ! .
12:37:02 <petern> 1 is already uppercase.
12:39:58 <Roujin> anyway, FilterContentList appearently tries to find the item again that we had selected before filtering; but that's pretty useless if setting this->selected to NULL, just before it o_O
12:40:35 <SmatZ> toupper('1') == tolower('1') == '1'
12:40:40 <Roujin> if I wrote that one, I am sincerely sorry...
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12:43:34 <Roujin> well, that's one complete useless iteration through the list after each filter. damn!
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12:48:21 <Roujin> just what the heck was I thinking, there oO
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12:51:19 <planetmaker> Roujin: maybe the lack thereof?
12:54:48 * dihedral cannot recall which thread it was where we had another bump-ranting
12:57:09 <planetmaker> hehe. That topic has already been reported :P
12:57:13 <petern> yeah, definitely slow with that window open
12:57:18 * planetmaker can only guess what dihedral did the last minutes :P
12:57:18 <petern> the mouse pointer chugs :/
12:57:25 <petern> and that's on a release build
12:58:05 <dihedral> i was looking to quote Belugas, but i am not finding the right post :-P
12:58:49 <dihedral> sheesh there are idiots in the forums
12:58:52 <SmatZ> it was reported before I pressed the [!] button, too
12:58:56 <planetmaker> It's done when it's done.... :P
12:59:54 * dihedral is marveled by planetmakers wisdom once again
13:01:42 <dihedral> is there not a minimum number of words someone has to post to a post?
13:03:57 <SmatZ> dihedral: still better "bump" than "bimpity bumpity bumpity bumpt" repeated 10 times
13:04:36 <planetmaker> yeah. I'm member in another forum. There people simply add empty lines as postings require a minimum length...
13:05:06 <planetmaker> (when quoting someone)
13:11:24 <dihedral> can we not hire some decent people to lurk around the forums? :-P
13:11:46 <dihedral> and replace those silly nit-whits?
13:13:00 <dihedral> "So if soem one good tell me" <- wow - that is some awesome english
13:13:50 <SmatZ> (my English is of course far from good, too)
13:14:00 <Roest> not all are native english speakers
13:14:11 <Roest> that might come surprising i know but it's a fact
13:14:35 <planetmaker> I guess nearly no-one talking here right now is - with maybe two exceptions.
13:15:24 <Roujin> petern: got any idea what is causing the high cpu load?
13:23:22 <dihedral> Roest, yes, sure they are not - but that was just some lovely line
13:23:31 <dihedral> good instead of could :-P
13:24:27 <dihedral> but there is a difference between typos, bad grammar, and simply using wrong words :-P
13:24:37 <dihedral> i just find it pretty cute :-P
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13:37:03 <Roujin> what, you have to pee?
13:41:37 <Roujin> petern: oh, good. Is it fixable? :)
13:42:09 <petern> and now i don't need a pee
13:42:42 <Roujin> eeh, that was directed to dihedral ;)
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13:45:17 <Roujin> because Königstiger reminds me of "Ich muss mal für kleine Königstiger" which you can say for "Ich muss mal für kleine Jungs/Mädchen" which you can say for "Ich muss mal aufs Klo" which means "I have to go to the toilet"
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13:47:10 <Roujin> damn, I thought all the time you were referring to "petern: got any idea what is causing the high cpu load?", petern
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13:47:55 * SmatZ isn't sure if he wants to know which one of "Jungs / Mädchen" means "pee and the second thing"
13:48:41 <Roujin> you say the first one if you're male, and the second one if you're female ;)
13:49:01 <Roujin> regardless of what you are going to leave in that place :P
13:49:21 <SmatZ> it's not as dirty as I thought :-p
13:50:23 <Roujin> so still no idea about the cpu load I guess... :(
13:53:51 <Sacro> we use the term "little boys/girls room"
13:54:06 <Roest> maybe it's working on world domination
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14:53:51 <Rubidium> ^ planetmaker, dihedral, Sacro ^
14:54:21 <glx> OSX users are never here when you need them ;)
14:56:39 <Rubidium> especially those who develop
15:01:59 <Sacro> Rubidium: failed due to no strgen :`
15:02:52 <Sacro> and ./configure has't run then it runs ./configure
15:02:56 <Sacro> and then asks you to run make
15:03:31 <Sacro> /Users/ben/Projects/trunk/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp:25:27: error: table/strings.h: No such file or directory
15:03:39 <Sacro> and then it goes downhill
15:04:26 <Sacro> i did a straight checkout
15:04:31 <Sacro> svn co svn://svn.openttd.org/trunk
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15:04:47 <Rubidium> there's no makefile if configure isn't ran
15:05:15 <Sacro> yeah, 15372 doesn't create table/strings.h
15:05:18 <Sacro> and I need to get to wok
15:05:45 <Rubidium> Sacro: you're making absolutely no sense at all
15:08:31 <Sacro> Rubidium: table/strings.h isn't being built therefore it breaks with a load of STR_... not found
15:08:51 <Sacro> error: STR_ ... was not declared in this scope
15:09:08 <Sacro> can you check if that rev builds elesewhere?
15:09:14 <Rubidium> yes, but you were talking about ./configure hasn't run
15:09:37 <Sacro> well thats another possible bug
15:09:46 <StarLionIsaac> I thought it runs ./configure for you if it detects it hasn't been done?
15:09:49 <Sacro> then asked me to run make
15:09:55 <Sacro> StarLionIsaac: yes, that's a bug i reckon
15:10:25 <Rubidium> it works fine for me
15:10:34 <petern> make: *** No targets specified and no makefile found. Stop.
15:11:31 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15373 /trunk/src/network/network_chat_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#2606]: Kenobi denied the server's client name to the tab-completed.
15:26:22 <Roujin> hope someone finds a clue about the cpu load :/
15:26:48 <SmatZ> Roujin: if I understand it correctly, the problem wasn't in OTTD
15:35:32 * dihedral tests Rubidium patch
15:39:47 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15374 /trunk/src/ (road_cmd.cpp roadveh.h roadveh_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: remove a magic constant.
15:47:18 <dihedral> Rubidium, works find for me
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15:52:34 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15375 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#2605]: a tram circling around in a depot did never actually 'enter' the depot.
15:54:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15376 /trunk/src/ (string.cpp string_func.h): -Fix [FS#2608] (r15371): OSX/BSD also seems to define strcasecmp under some circumstances.
16:05:11 <Sacro> Rubidium: compiling now
16:05:21 <Sacro> which knocks 3 hours off my battery life :(
16:08:30 <dihedral> Sacro, loooooser :-P
16:09:02 <Sacro> you are gay with your cousin?
16:09:22 <Sacro> "_iconv", referenced from:
16:09:22 <Sacro> convert_tofrom_fs(void*, char const*)in unix.o
16:09:22 <Sacro> convert_tofrom_fs(void*, char const*)in unix.o
16:09:22 <Sacro> "_iconv_open", referenced from:
16:09:24 <Sacro> FS2OTTD(char const*)in unix.o
16:09:27 <Sacro> OTTD2FS(char const*)in unix.o
16:09:29 <Sacro> ld: symbol(s) not found
16:09:35 <Rubidium> what? Sacro's dihedral's cousin?
16:09:38 <dihedral> you still having that iconv issue?
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16:12:41 <Sacro> dihedral: yes, installed both macports and errm
16:13:12 <dihedral> regardles of them saying that you should only use one?
16:13:30 <dihedral> how come you have issues with iconv and i dont? :-P
16:13:36 <dihedral> you have xcode installed?
16:14:50 <dihedral> and you ran ./configure again _after_ you ran the port install?
16:16:13 <Rubidium> ah well... OSX is known to break stuff when updating 'something'
16:16:37 <dihedral> i just never had an issue like that
16:16:50 <Sacro> i just did --with-iconv=/opt/local
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16:19:01 <Sacro> perhaps I need to set up /etc/ld.so.conf
16:19:14 <Sacro> perhaps -j2 would be better
16:21:51 <tokai> OSX comes on its own with iconv, no? at least my osx has it and i don't have macports or fink stuff installed:)
16:22:31 <Sacro> tokai: well it doesn't link
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16:23:39 <dihedral> tokai, which version of os x?
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17:06:03 <petern> is there an image editor that understands png text?
17:07:17 <petern> yeah, i suppose it's similar to exif info in jpg
17:08:14 <goodger> some specialist little nagware utility that uses a non-standard windows GUI toolkit that you download from a seedy download site
17:09:41 * petern ponders a batch mode for pngcodec
17:09:51 <dihedral> petern, Quark Express :-P
17:12:21 <petern> hmm, no msvc solution for pngcodec :/
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17:44:08 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
18:00:22 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15377 /trunk/src/ (network/network_content_gui.cpp sortlist_type.h): -Fix [FS#2607]: filter did resort when unneeded and didn't deselect properly in some cases (Roujin)
18:06:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r15378 /trunk/src/newgrf_engine.cpp: -Fix: The subcargo returned by vehicle variable 0x42 should be the most-common-subcargo of the most-common-cargo. If nothing is transported 0x..FFFF00 should be returned.
18:40:45 <Rubidium> huh? petern needs to be milked?
18:42:33 <dihedral> Rubidium, go ahead.... :-P
18:43:10 <Roujin> hmm, maybe this "valgrind" utility would help with the cpu load issue? doesn't that help you find out how much cpu time is spent in which functions, or so?
18:44:20 <Rubidium> it would help increasing the load
18:44:46 <Rubidium> but it's not valgrind you need
18:46:16 <Roujin> what then? I have currently no clue where that cpu load comes from oO
18:46:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r15379 /trunk/src/lang/ (18 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:46:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2009-02-06 18:45:59
18:46:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: arabic_egypt - 11 fixed by khaloofah (11)
18:46:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 11 fixed by arnaullv (11)
18:46:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 10 fixed, 2 changed by Yexo (10), Excel20 (2)
18:46:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 14 fixed by jpx_ (12), UltimateSephiroth (2)
18:46:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 11 fixed by glx (11)
18:47:20 <Roujin> even commenting out all calls of FilterContentList(), and still it's running slow.. so that's not it
18:47:23 <Rubidium> gprof and related stuff
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19:58:05 <Rubidium> Belugas: FS to the rescue?
20:02:15 * petern considers the advantages of a beer
20:02:49 <Belugas> don't need FS, Rubidium, just some good earphones ;)
20:03:04 <Belugas> especially neat the end :(
20:03:57 <Rubidium> oh, I thought you were chocking on smallfly
20:04:39 <petern> remind me, what did you think of godspeed you black emperor?
20:09:54 <Belugas> does not ring a bell...
20:10:46 <Belugas> is it a song, petern? or a band?
20:12:43 <Belugas> i do not remeber the name. i'll be watching it tonigh :) promised
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20:15:04 <Eddi|zuHause2> are there really more than 3 chords in a song?
20:15:57 <Belugas> some songs have only 2 chords, some only one, some have zillions
20:16:21 <Belugas> chords are just the base. the important part of a song is the melody
20:16:27 <Belugas> chords are just there for support
20:16:41 <petern> a song which is just chords is pretty boring :)
20:16:48 <petern> hmm, sounds like pop music
20:17:08 <Belugas> poum poum poum poum poum poum
20:18:19 <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't know the english terms, but my knowledge of music theory sais that the most important notes are the "Tonika" (the base note), the "Dominante" ("Quinte" above the base note) and the "Subdominante" ("Quinte" below the base note)
20:18:33 <Eddi|zuHause2> and the chords over these three
20:19:16 <Belugas> a chord is composed of three notes
20:19:24 <Belugas> a two note pattern is a tone
20:19:34 <Belugas> tones are very popular in heavy metal
20:19:40 <Belugas> called... power chords
20:20:18 *** Roujin_ is now known as Roujin
20:25:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r15380 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r15190)[FS#2603]: Do not use TileY() on negative TileIndexDiffs. But the test was not needed anyway, as those tiles were already tested in previous iterations.
20:27:28 <petern> where would H come from?
20:28:02 <el_en> don't ask me, but the version with H is what we are taught in finlandia.
20:28:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> germans use "h" where english use "b"
20:28:17 <petern> clearly you have a different alphabet
20:29:10 <el_en> ok, i'm pretty sure we can conclude H comes from germany, but how did it find its way to germany?
20:29:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> germans use "b" where english use "b♭"
20:30:11 <smeding> el_en, getting from germany to germany is pretty straightforward :)
20:30:38 <el_en> smeding: except if there's a wall.
20:31:46 <Eddi|zuHause2> 1:0 for el_en :p
20:36:51 <Belugas> Eddi|zuHause2, you are a mercantil little brat :D
20:37:03 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
20:37:06 <Belugas> "i'll do it, for 10 for the first patch file, each subsequent file costs double the previous. :p"
20:38:14 <Rubidium> so for 30 euros I can play 0.2.0 with YAPP ;)
20:41:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't promise it would be playable :p
20:45:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't find any information about the origin of the "H"
20:45:52 <Eddi|zuHause> what i know is that in medieval times the sequence "DO [or UT], RE, MI, FA, SOL, LA, SI" was introduced to make music "writable"
20:46:33 <Eddi|zuHause> it was originally intended to be used relative to the appropriate base note, which was always "DO"
20:46:54 <Eddi|zuHause> later the letters were introduced as an "absolute" notation
20:48:12 <Eddi|zuHause> and lots of stuff about composers putting their names (e.g. "B-A-C-H"), initials, or otherwise hidden words into music
20:51:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r15381 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r11091): When testing for parallel road two tiles away, do not move more than one tile along the road.
20:59:33 <Roujin> hmm, appearently the high cpu load in the content download window has nothing to do with the GUIList filter
21:00:05 <Roujin> it is also present in earlier revisions (r15366)
21:00:36 <Roujin> maybe some networking related thing
21:03:15 <Eddi|zuHause> ./configure --enable-profiling && make run-prof?
21:04:37 *** Roujin_ has joined #openttd
21:05:20 <Rubidium> Roujin_: you should take another provider
21:05:29 <Rubidium> e.g. t-ipdisconnect.de
21:06:13 <Roujin_> that was my gf's father's fault
21:06:34 <Eddi|zuHause> he took off the phone, so it disconnected your 8k modem?
21:06:48 <Roujin_> he just reset their internet connection without telling me beforehand ;)
21:07:11 <Rubidium> he does that quite often
21:07:42 <Roujin_> nope, the other times it was at my place, and because I lost wlan connection
21:08:19 <smallfly> need one of those hardcore openttd programmers
21:08:51 <Eddi|zuHause> never seen any of those
21:09:00 <Roujin_> what are hardcore openttd programmers?
21:09:24 <Roujin_> programming openttd while diving, or climbing a mountain?
21:09:42 <Andel> I programmed some openttd whilst ironing
21:09:44 <Rubidium> bah... the image in my head... :(
21:09:45 <smallfly> well, really amusing you guys
21:09:54 <Eddi|zuHause> "core", from french "coer", meaning heart. so anybody with a heart of stone
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21:10:30 <Andel> ahh - see what she did to Roujin?!
21:10:33 <Roujin_> smallfly: just ask your question, if you have one
21:10:35 *** Roujin_ is now known as Roujin
21:11:03 <Roujin> if there's anyone hardcore enough to answer it, he will ;) if not - well bad luck
21:11:20 <smallfly> is it possible to code openttd with c# and sdldotnet AND more important to play this on linux/max machines?
21:11:43 <Rubidium> Roujin: while diving would be Belugas, while climbing would be TrueBrain
21:12:47 <Roujin> uhm.. i'll answer that question with another question: Is it possible to reinvent the wheel, build cars using them, and drive those cars in finland?
21:13:14 <Andel> are those african or European wheels
21:13:32 <Andel> and is there a bloke called brian involved?
21:13:45 <Andel> smallfly: I don't think there would be a problem....
21:13:47 <smallfly> i understand your *errection*
21:14:06 <Rubidium> I'd reckon it's technically possible to make a C++ -> C# wrapper, but that doesn't make it anymore cross platform
21:14:46 <Rubidium> it's technically possible, but unfeasible that one ever makes it
21:14:57 <smallfly> openttd is c/c++ coded, right? and i think there are about 20 (?) people coding on it right now. the speed the project gets forward is very less relative to the work pumped in
21:15:27 <kd5pbo> It's possible to play it under Linux and OSX.
21:15:48 <Yexo> smallfly: there are not 20 people full-time developing for openttd
21:16:25 <el_en> why the hell would anyone want to code openttd in c#?
21:16:40 <Rubidium> I'd reckon there's in total 1 person full-time developing; spread over a handfull of active devs
21:16:48 <frosch123> because c# solves everything that xml does not
21:16:51 <smallfly> c# is a cleaner language and more understandable to other coders
21:17:17 <Rubidium> smallfly: why don't we speak all Ido then?
21:17:19 <smallfly> the code does not get dirty like the openttd source is
21:17:48 <Eddi|zuHause> 9 users commited to svn in the last 5 days
21:17:57 <Rubidium> Ido's a constructed language with the intent to be pronouncable for everyone
21:18:04 <Rubidium> and used by everyone
21:18:12 <Eddi|zuHause> spread over 70 revisions
21:18:13 <smallfly> dont think that leads to a well coded source
21:18:39 <el_en> smallfly: oh, c# can't be used for making bad code?
21:18:46 <Yexo> smallfly: how does using another language make the code more readable? That's like magic :)
21:18:48 <Rubidium> smallfly: and how does C# make OpenTTD better?
21:19:15 <Eddi|zuHause> "clean" code is not the only optimisation goal
21:19:17 <kd5pbo> What about cross platform support.
21:19:29 <Rubidium> kd5pbo: then C# isn't what you want
21:19:37 <kd5pbo> As far as I know, there's no C# compiler for Solaris.
21:19:43 <el_en> kd5pbo: windows xp, windows vista, windows 7... ain't that cross enough?
21:19:49 <smallfly> i dont want to discuss in this "bad against good" style
21:20:12 <Rubidium> smallfly: please explain what makes C# a better choice
21:20:14 <el_en> smallfly: btw, sir, your apostrophes are missing.
21:20:43 <Yexo> smallfly: it's not that I think c# is a bad language, it'd just be very bad to switch language now (think of all the work involved, and you already complained progress was slow)
21:20:56 <Eddi|zuHause> smallfly: when C# makes coding so clean, why are 80% of all the world's programs written in COBOL?
21:21:12 <Rubidium> big negative point of C#: ALL development halts for at least a year, then there's a year of fixing all mistakes/errors made during the conversion
21:21:13 *** mortal` is now known as Mortal
21:21:41 <smallfly> yeah your right. "we" shouldnt stop the c++ work
21:21:53 <smallfly> instead we should start a c# project parallel to it.
21:22:08 *** Moriarty2 has joined #openttd
21:22:32 <smallfly> plus the c# programmers being inactive till now
21:22:39 * Rubidium isn't going to do C#
21:22:48 <Yexo> what about the current c/c++ programmars that won't do c#?
21:22:51 <dihedral> smallfly, YOU can code in c# if you wish
21:23:05 <dihedral> and YOU can start the project - OpenTTD _is_ open source after all
21:23:12 <el_en> smallfly: why wouldn't you start such a project?
21:23:16 <dihedral> everybody is cool :-P
21:23:16 <Eddi|zuHause> from my experience, people who fix themselves on one language end up as bad coders
21:23:17 <frosch123> smallfly: 90% of ottd devs are on linux, you can imagine anyone of them to switch to c# ?
21:23:44 <smallfly> what about projects like mono?
21:23:44 <dihedral> frosch123, there are things like 'mono'
21:23:46 <Rubidium> you'll be person 6 or 7 that started the conversion to C# (none of them have resulted into anything that even started)
21:23:51 <el_en> Eddi|zuHause: that's right, and that's why I know both C and C++. :)
21:24:04 <Rubidium> smallfly: so you want us to use .NET 1.ancient?
21:24:32 <smallfly> well, you've got the better arguments ... it is not possible to code in c# ...
21:24:32 <dihedral> and you login to multiplayer using your hotmail account
21:24:41 <NukeBuster> wasn't there also mention of porting to Java on the forums a while back?
21:24:42 <Eddi|zuHause> during my studying time, i have programmed in about a dozen different languages
21:25:02 <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, ever looked at erlang? :-P
21:25:11 <Moriarty2> NukeBuster - I think there's been mention of porting to every language under the sun in the forums. :-)
21:25:12 <Eddi|zuHause> no, but i heard of it
21:25:28 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: btw. which 80% are written in cobol ?
21:25:31 <dihedral> it's a pretty neat language
21:25:40 <Rubidium> frosch123: the 80% of the banks
21:26:39 <el_en> smallfly: the best way to attract developers is to start a C# fork of openttd yourself, something that at least compiles. and not just expect someone else to start it.
21:26:42 <frosch123> banks, hmm... then currently there is suitable situation to switch to another language :p
21:26:48 <goodger> practically everything for banks is in cobol
21:26:51 <smallfly> i sometimes read about those c# branches in the forums ... I do not want to start such a one. I just use C# to program some small things for myself. but, because i know the source of c++ i noticed the advantages
21:27:24 <dihedral> you'd combine cargodest and IS for 30 euros? :-D
21:27:54 <Eddi|zuHause> that's certainly easier than 0.2 and YAPP :p
21:28:14 <dihedral> does that include updating to current trunk?
21:28:27 <dihedral> i give you a weeks time :-P
21:28:28 <Eddi|zuHause> no, that's a patch file for each revision :p
21:29:08 *** Moriarty2 is now known as Moriarty
21:29:08 <Aali> actually, an hour wont do it
21:29:17 * Rubidium gives Aali an hour... that will be 30 euros then ;)
21:29:56 <Aali> I *could* do it in an hour, but it's friday night
21:30:01 <Moriarty> I have some questions about heightmaps.
21:30:33 * dihedral just finished listening to "Die 13 1/2 Leben des Käpt'n Blaubär"
21:30:56 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15382 /trunk/ (bin/ai/regression/ src/timetable_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS#2466]: multiple vehicles could be filling the timetable and only the data from one vehicle would be taken. Now only allow one to be filling at a time.
21:31:04 <dihedral> Moriarty, nice - i have a few questions about other stuff
21:31:23 <Moriarty> Specifically, I currently have about 55 of them on my computer (in a non-finished state) and I'm wondering when BaNaNa's will support them.
21:31:43 <Moriarty> Given uploading them to the forum one by one would be tiresome.
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21:32:38 <Yexo> uploading them one-by-one to the forum would be tiresome, but uploading them one-by-one to bananas would not?
21:32:41 <Roujin_> this time he warned me prior to resetting the connection ^^
21:32:42 <dihedral> how about turning that into a scn?
21:33:16 <Yexo> dihedral: I prefer heightmaps so you can choose your own newgrfs\
21:33:21 <dihedral> (for a better res image, images.google.com and search for "zamonien"
21:33:51 <dihedral> but - heightmaps only specify the landscape, not anything else
21:34:13 <Moriarty> Yexo - I was more thinking that uploading them a second time to bananas would be tiresome. ;-)
21:34:29 <Yexo> sure, scenarios are nice too, but just converting a heightmap to a scenario to have a scenario doesn't make sense
21:34:42 <Rubidium> Moriarty: that's the idea, but that'll require some changes to some (load) GUIs/backends
21:34:57 <Rubidium> and I haven't had the feeling of actually implementing it
21:35:12 <Moriarty> Rubidium: You're referring to the work on bananas?
21:35:34 <Rubidium> no, work on OpenTTD before it supports it in a nice manner
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21:35:42 <dihedral> there aint much point in uploading to bananas if OpenTTD cannot download it
21:35:55 <Rubidium> at the moment it only allows showing 1 directory, which is troublesome
21:36:04 <Moriarty> Makes sense. This would be why I'm enquiring now.
21:36:21 <Moriarty> Also I figure if you know there's someone out there with a bunch of heightmaps waiting.... ;-)
21:36:37 <dihedral> does not always make things faster ;-)
21:36:51 <Moriarty> Not necessarily, but maybe it'll help with motivation. :-)
21:37:56 <dihedral> yes, Moriarty, he'll probably get right to it :-P
21:38:23 <Moriarty> Hehe. I wasn't thinking it'd provide that much motivation, that's what the big-stick is for. ;-p
21:39:24 <dihedral> Rubidium, in what way only showing 1 directory?
21:39:25 <Moriarty> I can currently make, with little effort, heightmaps for pretty much any part of the world, though these are all small-scale so only for large areas. I just thought you guys may be interested.
21:40:16 <dihedral> Moriarty, a hightmap of zamonien would interest me
21:40:36 <Rubidium> dihedral: the heightmaps etc. will be distributed in a tar, which makes things quite interesting
21:41:06 <Moriarty> Unfortunately I was referring to heightmaps of real-world places on Earth.
21:41:11 <dihedral> but does not OpenTTD have support already to read tars?
21:41:14 <Moriarty> Though I could probably do the moon too thinking about it.
21:42:12 <Rubidium> dihedral: yup, but... reading tars != showing the data in the tars in the scenario/heightmap 'load' windows
21:42:40 <dihedral> yes, but there will only be one heightmap in a single tar right?
21:42:48 <Moriarty> Rubidium: Also, per my suggestion in the forum thread too, would it be possible to do something with screenshots too?
21:42:54 <dihedral> so what else must you read / show in a single tar?
21:42:57 <Moriarty> (as in, show a screenshot of the heightmap)
21:43:33 <Moriarty> Could you get Bananas to render on up?
21:44:48 <Rubidium> technically it could be done
21:45:02 <Rubidium> but I don't think anyone wants to spend the time in it that is needed
21:45:33 <Moriarty> Okay. It's just that if there are a lot of heightmaps (or scenarios), then the player choosing which to load would be tricky.
21:45:50 <Rubidium> it's the same with newgrfs
21:46:01 <Moriarty> True, but you can't really do screenshots there.
21:46:20 <Moriarty> What's needed is some sort of metadata.
21:46:24 <petern> do i need to resurrect my fileio patch?
21:46:42 <Yexo> petern: what did that patch do?
21:47:13 <petern> the one that provides abstraction and classes for access methods
21:47:38 <petern> well, the abstraction is there already, i just took it to classes
21:47:51 <Eddi|zuHause> and mister-i-have-a-patch-for-it strikes again :p
21:49:30 <Moriarty> I'm assuming each file on bananas has its own Hash. What if that hash was used for a wiki page.
21:50:08 <Moriarty> For the GRF's, the wikipage could simply redirect to the relevent GRF wiki entry.
21:50:44 <dihedral> however, if bananas showed the same info as one can get in the game would be awesome :-P
21:51:35 *** Xaroth was kicked by DorpsGek (Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.)
21:52:11 <Xaroth> irssi can be a pain with window handling
21:52:13 <Moriarty> dihedral: I get the feeling your version would be rather a lot more effort. :-)
21:52:24 <Rubidium> nah, I leave that to the RIAA/MPAA/BSA/.*A
21:52:45 <dihedral> Xaroth, nope it would not be
21:52:48 <Moriarty> Whereas the hash method could probably be done in a matter of a few minutes.
21:52:52 <Xaroth> i doubt brein will be able to find anything on my pc.
21:52:52 <dihedral> the data is all there already
21:52:55 <NukeBuster> omg, did i screw something with compiling or did some graphics change?
21:53:07 <NukeBuster> black boxes on the opening title of r15379
21:53:18 <NukeBuster> opening screen actually
21:53:19 <Moriarty> NukeBuster: you're probably using the newgraphics
21:53:34 <NukeBuster> ah, so it kicked in
21:53:47 <NukeBuster> yeah using the internal download feature
21:53:53 <NukeBuster> do they overwrite the old ones?
21:54:05 <Yexo> no, but they are enabled by default
21:54:08 <Moriarty> Yes, they take precidene. The old ones are still there. Just delete the .tar file to use them.
21:54:13 <Yexo> you can disable them in the config file
21:55:12 <Yexo> NukeBuster: try one of 1) lower the "ai building speed in the difficulty window" 2) Lower "#opcodes before AI is suspended" in advanced settings window. 3) Don't start many AIs at the same time
21:55:37 <NukeBuster> ehh, it lags in title screen
21:55:52 <Eddi|zuHause> then you are screwed
21:55:59 <NukeBuster> openttd is using 20%cpu without doing anything
21:56:02 <Yexo> I thought you were complaining that the AI lagged :p
21:56:21 <NukeBuster> could the ai also play in the title game?
21:56:43 <dihedral> you could load the titlegame as a savegame
21:56:45 <frosch123> noone can 'play' in the title game
21:57:28 <Eddi|zuHause> the AI can only do what players could also do :p
21:58:10 <NukeBuster> well i'll try the graphics in a game i like them somewhat... although the traintracks seem to be a little dark
21:59:31 <NukeBuster> font is a bit strange also
22:02:19 <Roujin_> don't use too strong words though, or they'll be offended ;)
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22:03:51 <Rubidium> they're less offended than the zodttd 'community'
22:04:59 <Roujin_> why are they offended?
22:07:03 <Belugas> poor smallfly... his attempt to convince us has not been too successful
22:09:09 <Roujin_> I only see one guy that seems to be offended by someone pointing out the requirements of the GNU public license.
22:09:59 <Rubidium> michi_cc's comment? or the second last one?
22:10:09 <Rubidium> both made someone offended ;)
22:10:23 <Sacro> thye got offended when he didn't release the PPC sources too
22:10:29 <Rubidium> the rest is just "praising" that they released a new version
22:11:14 <Roujin_> don't see an offended comment caused by michi_cc's request tbh..
22:12:08 <Rubidium> "You could throw the GPL (I included the COPYING with the binary) in my face, or you could ask nicely" <- sounds like someone got offended
22:12:27 <Roujin_> you forgot to copy the ";)"
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22:13:18 <NukeBuster> is he a member of the TT-Forums?
22:13:52 <Roujin_> don't think so, at least not under that name
22:17:10 <Roujin_> well, does he violate the GPL, or the Transport Tycoon copyright (=original grfs, sample.cat) in some way?
22:17:31 <Rubidium> Roujin_: haven't you read the second last post?
22:18:23 <Rubidium> and yes, he violates both
22:19:22 <NukeBuster> and that while using openttd as the name. Makes it look like you condone distributing the original graphics with openttd
22:19:31 <Eddi|zuHause> afair the GPL also requires that modified builds be clearly markedd as such, with the modifications clearly stated
22:20:41 <Yexo> I don't think stating the modifications is needed, but stating that it's modified is
22:24:19 <Eddi|zuHause> why do i sometimes get the impression that people writing in forums can't actually read
22:26:20 <Belugas> because... first flame, then read
22:26:46 <Belugas> plus... they can't even read what's availaible on the screen of the game, imagine on a post ;)
22:27:27 <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, which post this time?
22:29:03 <Roujin_> hm, well.. call me a hippie, but maybe it would be a good idea to get in contact with the zodttd guy and talk the matter out straight...
22:29:46 <Sacro> well there are certain people in openttd dev forum who forget the COPYING file
22:29:54 <dihedral> what you wanna do if he does not like it?
22:30:12 <Roujin_> well, than one has at least tried it
22:30:14 <Rubidium> send an takedown notice to his ISP?
22:30:32 <dihedral> the guy who did Transporter was very friendly when i emailed him, but there is actually nothing you _could_ really do
22:31:14 <Rubidium> but that's more something for Atari to do
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22:31:33 <dihedral> and Atari would not do it, as they have enough trouble with marjaque
22:31:57 <dihedral> it would actually be something for CS agency to do
22:32:18 <dihedral> and they dont like OpenTTD either :-P
22:33:19 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: yes, let us sing to them
22:33:43 <Eddi|zuHause> there was this bundy episode
22:33:57 <Eddi|zuHause> where they sang that one song over and over again :p
22:38:50 <Rubidium> we can't do anything about the distribution of the original graphics
22:39:11 <dihedral> not your job either ;-)
22:39:12 <Eddi|zuHause> only the copyright holder can sue
22:39:25 <dihedral> that is the agency of CS
22:40:00 * Belugas runs home, tired and pissed off by work
22:40:10 <dihedral> have a nice evening Belugas
22:40:23 <Rubidium> Belugas: kill some snowmen... might make you more relaxed tonight
22:40:56 <dihedral> have a cup of hot tea with them? :-P
22:42:00 <dihedral> 1. i was never involved in the creation and / or gathering of those grf's used in the openttdcoop pack
22:42:06 <dihedral> 2. i am no part of openttdcoop
22:45:29 <dihedral> nearly a month since announcement, and a bunch longer not active no more
22:49:08 * dihedral wonders if pbi will ever make it into bananas :-P
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23:02:05 <Roujin_> well, gonna log off for today.. good night
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continue to next day ⏵
