IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2009-01-22
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00:00:51 <Roujin> nobody seems to have found that bug since r14827
00:01:33 <Roujin> ... Quick Goto also works on opponents' vehicles
00:02:14 <Roujin> when I select an opponent's vehicle's order list and < 2 orders are in it, my cursor becomes the "go to" cursor
00:02:36 <Roujin> of course I can't give it any orders (sad, ain't it :P)
00:04:02 <Roujin> credits for finding this bug go to Zuu for building an AI that let a bus without orders drive around :D
00:08:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15202 /trunk/src/order_gui.cpp: -Fix (r14827): only make quick goto active for your own company
00:08:33 <dihedral> there is a green edge in the minimap when freeform_edges is enabled
00:08:52 <Rubidium> dihedral: what version?
00:10:05 <Roujin> Yexo: [quote=Yexo] Thanks for the report GeekToo, but this is not a bug in AdmiralAI. The save function from openttd sometimes trashes the top value of the stack, and that is what happened here. [/quote]
00:10:24 <dihedral> anyway - it's bed time for me now
00:10:31 <Roujin> do you already know where/what to fix about that?
00:10:42 <Roujin> argh, that sentence was broken
00:11:11 <Yexo> it's happens once in a while, but I've not found a way to reproduce it
00:11:18 <Roujin> so currently it's safer to turn off autosave when trying out AIs i guess.. ;)
00:12:18 <Yexo> that bug should really be fixed, but I've no idea where to start because it only happens 1 in x times
00:12:31 <Yexo> and the squirrel code is a mess
00:12:51 <Rubidium> start with making the 'error' an exception and then get a stack trace with full info
00:12:58 <Rubidium> i.e. use a debug build
00:13:20 <Rubidium> and then run it on a small map? so it does many autosaves
00:13:33 <Yexo> Rubidium: that doesn't help much, because it can be every kind of error can be caused by it
00:13:44 <Yexo> sometimes it just gives a wrong value, but no crash
00:14:05 <Rubidium> when it gives a crash you at least have some information
00:14:27 <Roujin> one could write a little test AI that tests the values it gets
00:14:33 <Rubidium> but I kinda suspect the opcode limiter might have to do something with that
00:15:17 <glx> it should be possible to disable the limiter on save
00:15:19 <Yexo> that was TrueBrains suspection too, he thought it was unfixable because of the way the opcode limiter is coded
00:15:24 <Yexo> glx: that is already done
00:15:32 <Roujin> i.e. push "somevalue", check if (pop "somevalue") = "somevalue"
00:23:32 <Rubidium> Yexo: I'm suspecting that calling the save function requires that there're no things on the stack
00:23:48 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: Yexo * r15203 /trunk/src/terraform_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r15190): CmdTerraformLand didn't check it's parameters good enough.
00:24:50 <Rubidium> so basically that the limiter should only stop the execution when 'a new expression' starts, i.e. wherever you've got a ';' in C
00:25:22 <Rubidium> no idea how hard it is to change, but that's my gut feeling about this issue
00:26:26 <Rubidium> my gut says it's time to sleep too ;)
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00:44:04 <Roujin> well, going to sleep now too, see you
00:46:11 <planetmaker> stupid question: what's the c-syntax for c = a xor b
01:07:30 <planetmaker> hm... is there an easy function to flip the n-th bit of a variable (unlike xor) which conforms to OpenTTD coding style? E.g. wrapping the XOR. Like SetBit(a,n)?
01:08:33 <Aali> implement FlipBit yourself if it doesn't exist :P
01:09:17 <planetmaker> ha, that'll do the trick. I looked for flip etc :) thx glx
01:12:02 <planetmaker> I don't like the drop down selection for the watery edges of the map - and I try to change that to simple yes/no for the sides.
01:13:33 <planetmaker> fit better the scheme of that window IMO
01:13:46 <planetmaker> thought of the settings boxes red/green though
01:15:04 <planetmaker> not entirely sure about the best GUI representation. Any thoughts?
01:15:16 <SmatZ> hmm pushbuttons, good idea, too
01:15:41 <SmatZ> actually I hand idea with checkboxes, but pushbuttons are better :)
01:30:20 <planetmaker> nearly done. Just some string positions / texts and a bit shifting of buttons :)
01:34:00 * Yexo can't reproduce the problem with AI saving with several test AIs
01:47:50 <Yexo> I've got a possible fix now
01:48:49 <planetmaker> :( why needs everything re-compiling, if I add a single string to one language :(
01:50:05 <Yexo> r15167 is a bit wrong, because this->vm->_suspended != 0 when the save function is called (because that happens during the ai, not while it's suspended
01:50:55 <Yexo> but since I've still no way of reproducing it I have no way to check whether this solves the problem
01:51:31 <glx> I don't fully understand how squirrel stack works
01:54:52 <Yexo> I don't understand it 100% either
01:57:24 <glx> and trying to follow their code requires a lot of aspirin ;)
01:58:29 <Yexo> but a lot less anoying :)
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01:59:09 <glx> doesn't help to understand squirrel :)
01:59:39 <Yexo> anyway, I'll give this fix a go and see if it helps
02:01:22 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: Yexo * r15204 /trunk/src/script/squirrel.cpp: -Fix (r15167): The check was a bit too restrictive, the top of the stack needs to be resetted if another function is called while the AI is running but not suspended.
02:02:02 <welshdragon> there's no such word
02:02:34 * Yexo didn't fix the commit message of 15167 :)
02:03:10 * welshdragon urges Yexo to change it, fior the sake of English sanity
02:03:53 <SmatZ> I think it is possible, but I don't know how...
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02:04:47 <SmatZ> he's Welsh, not English...
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02:45:45 <planetmaker> except that the buttons are yellow and not orange maybe :)
02:46:30 <SmatZ> I think it is very nice :)
02:47:24 <SmatZ> I am confused by g0 in the equation
02:47:49 <welshdragon> is anybody working on an up to date shared infrastructure patch?
02:47:56 <SmatZ> yes... I know the air pressure is ~0 there ;)
02:48:17 <SmatZ> welshdragon: I think nobody wasn't able to sync it
02:48:37 * welshdragon liked that patch#
02:48:47 <planetmaker> I guess that's where there's no atmosphere anymore but the pressure of the solar wind. That's 15 Earth radii outward - so no. It's the pressure of the solar wind there - depending whether it's sunward or outward
02:49:20 <planetmaker> the barometric formula won't work there anymore. It will be higher.
02:50:38 <Aali> welshdragon: I have an up to date version of the old shared infrastructure patch, it doesn't apply to clean trunk out of the box though
02:52:11 <welshdragon> Aali, hmm, ok, if youcan emai it o me
02:52:27 <Belugas> my frienbd cooks socks
02:54:20 <welshdragon> hmm, i wonder.....
02:54:22 <Aali> welshdragon: if you can't sync the other one, you won't be able to apply this one, I'm afraid :P
02:54:24 <goodger> my friend docks ducks
02:54:48 <Aali> it applies to latest trunk patched with cargodest and improved timetable management
02:55:21 * welshdragon shall look in the repo's
02:55:43 <Belugas> my OTHER friend mocks pucks
02:56:52 <goodger> a fifth friend clocks trucks
02:57:28 <planetmaker> hm... I might remove strings...
02:58:18 <Belugas> YAO Friend bugs for bucks
03:00:50 <Belugas> mmh... that was an easy one :(
03:00:58 <Belugas> could be anything anyone
03:02:01 <Belugas> well... got no more inspiration for the night :)
03:02:37 <welshdragon> hmm, cfompiling,tk :)
03:02:50 <goodger> Belugas: my rhyming dictionary is depleted
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03:22:14 <planetmaker> good night folks!
03:38:31 <SmatZ> good night, planetmaker
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06:51:50 <dihedral> have not seen you in a while
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07:14:12 <dihedral> src/3rdparty/ the external for squirrel is set to svn://svn.openttd.org
07:14:39 <dihedral> means that if someone is 'required' to access via http, they cannot fetch squirrel via the externals
07:15:29 <dihedral> however, if i am not mistaken, it is possible to set a path inside the repository
07:15:42 <dihedral> that way it keeps the protocol already set
07:24:42 <dihedral> src/smallmap_gui.cpp:257: warning: '_smallmap_vegetation_andor' defined but not used
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07:27:32 <Yexo> dihedral: what has that warning to do with me?
07:29:54 <dihedral> i just thought it had, because you were doing all the map stuff recently :-P
07:30:57 <Yexo> I didn't touch the smallmap gui at all (which let r15201), but otherwise I haven't touched that code
07:31:13 <Yexo> now I'm lookint at that code it seems to be _very_ old
07:31:33 <Yexo> are you sure that warning wasn't in earlier versions?
07:33:52 <dihedral> well - never mind ;-)
07:34:22 <Yexo> it was already unused in r10000
07:34:34 <Yexo> probably already since r1500 or even before
07:35:03 <dihedral> _smallmap_vegetation_andor is not used anywhere in the code
07:35:46 <Yexo> I think it should've been used at line 453
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07:36:06 <Forked> I have a feeling I'll be playing quite alot of ottd this weekend :)
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07:36:22 <dihedral> perhaps Rubidium knows... :-P
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07:36:33 <dihedral> Forked: i will not, i have no time at all this weekend
07:36:42 <dihedral> unless late evening hours
07:36:49 <dihedral> and there i have other stuff to do
07:37:05 <Forked> I'm visiting my parents, there will be some downtime
07:42:14 <Yexo> looks like _smallmap_vegetation_andor is unused since r1
07:45:07 <dihedral> Yexo: that's pretty nasty :-P
07:45:45 <Yexo> I wonder why your compiler started complaing now
07:46:54 <dihedral> i thought warnings were suppressed anyway :-P
08:06:06 <dihedral> [SRC] No such source-file: /Users/nathanael/Development/openttd.svn/src/video/cocoa/wnd_quickdraw.mm.[c|cpp|mm|rc] <- ???
08:13:28 * dihedral is gonna update his version of xcode
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08:21:14 * dihedral will update his xcode version
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08:29:56 <Burgundavia> ok, 32bpp is driving me nuts
08:30:15 <Burgundavia> how do I get it to recognize the graphics I have dropped in there? do I need to remove the old TTD graphics?
08:30:31 <Yexo> did you enable the 32bpp blitter?
08:31:00 <Yexo> and are you not trying to use the exrra-zoom graphics?
08:31:04 <Burgundavia> I am starting with the "-b 32bpp-optimized"
08:31:11 <Burgundavia> and I am not trying to use the extra zoom stuff
08:31:56 <Burgundavia> 0.6.3, official deb on ubuntu
08:32:13 <Yexo> where did you put the graphics?
08:32:30 <Burgundavia> /usr/share/games/openttd/data
08:32:38 <Burgundavia> same as the existing (and working) newgrfs
08:32:56 <Gekz> Burgundavia: enable debug
08:33:05 <Gekz> my brain says this would help
08:36:39 <Burgundavia> dbg: [grf] [OPENTTDW.GRF:755] GraphicsNew: Replacing sprites 0 to 47 of Catenary graphics (type 0x05) at SpriteID 0x15B6
08:36:39 <Burgundavia> <-- is this the 32bpp stuff?
08:38:25 <Burgundavia> hmm, it appears as if it is working
08:38:44 <Burgundavia> it is only Ben's temperate pack that is not working
08:38:58 <Yexo> where did you download that from?
08:40:18 <Burgundavia> where is that forum thread again?
08:41:47 <Yexo> Ben's temperate pack works fine here
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09:01:02 <Burgundavia> Yexo: thanks, it seems that it was working. Didn't realize jus how little of teh graphics have been replaced if you don;t have extra zoom
09:03:45 <dihedral> why on earth do they have to put xcode into a 999MB sized disc image?
09:10:04 <Rubidium> dihedral: be happy it's only 999 MB; for MSVC you need way more
09:10:21 <dihedral> yes but that is MS for you
09:11:12 <dihedral> Rubidium: [SRC] No such source-file: /Users/nathanael/Development/openttd.svn/src/video/cocoa/wnd_quickdraw.mm.[c|cpp|mm|rc] <- you have a clue what that could be caused by?
09:11:44 <dihedral> it compiled a few times with no probs
09:14:01 <Rubidium> why would I know what makes OSX break?
09:14:26 <Rubidium> I just see it as one of the other things they intentionally break which Bjarni hasn't worked arund yet
09:14:49 <petern> dihedral, you are on OS X then?
09:15:11 <petern> so you could become our new port maintainer!
09:15:32 <petern> Code 663 Windows Update encountered an unknown error.
09:16:21 <petern> it's that bollocking VS2005 SP1 security update
09:16:24 <Sacro> dihedral: i'm getting a macbook so I can help with Mac dev
09:16:30 <Sacro> heh, 2005 is so last year
09:16:35 <petern> the one i reinstalled vs2005 to install...
09:18:38 <dihedral> i would love to help - but currently i dont think i have enough to do that petern ;-)
09:18:38 <dihedral> or rather the lack there of
09:18:38 <dihedral> Rubidium: i did update the move patch to 15204 however, i still have to do the changes you once mentioned to me :-)
09:18:40 <dihedral> Sacro: i have a good old 12" G4 :-)
09:18:42 <dihedral> i need to install some system updates......
09:19:41 <Sacro> dihedral: heh, this is running leopard
09:20:18 <dihedral> the new mac's are way too big
09:22:25 <petern> dihedral, too old to learn new things?
09:24:08 <dihedral> btw: you are using subversion 1.5 right?
09:24:18 <dihedral> could you use the new svn:externals syntax?
09:24:30 <dihedral> that way you can specify relative paths, without the protocol
09:25:11 <dihedral> upside: if someone has to access via http and not svn, they will then still be able to fetch the external
09:25:32 <dihedral> rather than there being a timeout due to the port being blocked when wanting to access svn:// ....
09:26:26 <petern> what about people using older versions?
09:26:46 <petern> Subversion command-line client, version 1.4.2.
09:27:36 <planetmaker> [10:03] <dihedral> why on earth do they have to put xcode into a 999MB sized disc image? <--- lool, wtf!
09:31:14 <dihedral> petern: shoot - forgot those :P
09:31:34 <dihedral> petern: that also means that when you should commit a merge, you break mergetracking
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09:32:52 <dihedral> Traffic jams are unlikely since tracks split before they merge. ?
09:33:06 <dihedral> you wont have any deadlocks, but you will have pretty long queues
09:33:57 <dihedral> + the bridge needs not to go up and down again
09:36:06 <jerker> dihedral: deadlocks are unlikely, i guess, should i write deadlocks instead?
09:37:08 <dihedral> i am just saying that it's a good junction if you have like 5 trains passing it every minute
09:38:25 <jerker> dihedral; if the bridge do not go up the tunnel have to move one tile to the east which will make the crossing two tile larger for the south-east track to fit..
09:38:42 <dihedral> yes - just saw that with the bridge
09:38:43 <jerker> dihedral: it's optimized for compactness.
09:39:09 <dihedral> no - it's compact - it's not optimized :-P
09:39:46 <jerker> beats the compact 3-way B-M junction with 6 extra tile usage vs 15 tile.
09:40:47 <jerker> dihedral: it IS optimized :) for a good balance between throughout/latency/compactness see the Transmogrified.
09:40:48 <dihedral> but what do you want from a junction?
09:41:30 <planetmaker> he. Joining and splitting tracks formost ;)
09:42:02 <Rubidium> dihedral: merge tracking's broken anyhow
09:42:13 <dihedral> also a junction i would never use jerker
09:42:32 <dihedral> Rubidium: well, in that case :-P
09:42:34 <jerker> dihedral: :) I like it, but i am very biased.
09:43:10 <dihedral> to me a junction has to handle a lot of traffic, unless i dont expect that amount of traffic
09:43:31 <dihedral> second is fitting into the landscape
09:43:32 <jerker> it sould actually be interesting with a few examples of priorities and other interesting stuff that I havn't dwelved into yet
09:44:06 <dihedral> those junctions dont leave room for prios
09:44:48 <jerker> No, i mean new/other junctions which are opotimzed for other things. like priorities, or whatever.
09:45:59 <dihedral> well, like i said - if you have 5 trains, and speed does not matter, then it's a possible pick
09:46:00 <jerker> And some good examples on how to make a high capacity mainline with either loops or two tracks in each direction.
09:46:28 <dihedral> junctions for high capacity are very well described at www.openttdcoop.org ;-)
09:47:26 <jerker> dihedral: Yes, some ideas from there could be of very good use.
09:47:37 <dihedral> those junctions can be pretty much crammed full with trains at any given time
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09:51:26 <jerker> dihedral: yes i just looked at it. It will take foverever to build.
09:55:16 <jerker> dihedral: things to optimize for; code size (tile usage), speed (distance between turns), latency (signal distance), parallelism (capacity under load)
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09:57:44 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r15205 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Revert (r7421, partial): Support for MaxTE solves problem in a better way
09:57:45 <dihedral> size, ok they are compact - yes!
09:58:27 <dihedral> distance between turn? not really! they are as compact as they can get, those turns will slow down trains like anything
09:59:02 <planetmaker> that junction has a speed limit of ~180 km/h for trains while yours has about 90km/h. - which will be more efficient?
09:59:05 <jerker> Belugas; the kind of orders I would like ABC{DEF|GHI}JKL could be implemented im many ways. Random conditional jumping is OK for me (if RANDOM > 50% the jump to order X) but a global counter for all busses could be ok
09:59:10 <dihedral> latency? 7 tiles between signals means you have a lot of space between trains
09:59:29 <jerker> planetmaker: No not mine, i mean in general, as a way of rating junctions...
09:59:35 <dihedral> cpacity under load? that junction will not bring 60 trains a minute!
09:59:54 <jerker> dihedral: not mine stupid :)
10:00:02 <jerker> planetmaker: in general.
10:00:31 <jerker> dihedral: and sorry for saying stupid. my wrong
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10:01:36 <planetmaker> jerker: you say that size is the most important feature of junctions. To me a decently flowing network is more important. That's what gives me money.
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10:02:27 <jerker> planetmaker: I have never said that it is so i general. I have said that that particular junction is optimized for size. As I said there are several metrics for rating junction, obviously.
10:02:50 <jerker> dihedral: things to optimize for; code size (tile usage), speed (distance between turns), latency (signal distance), parallelism (capacity under load) (IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER)
10:03:39 <jerker> i do like the parallels between computer science and junctions. :)
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10:04:04 <planetmaker> jerker: readability
10:04:06 <petern> signal spacing should be 2 * train length :p
10:04:24 <planetmaker> e.g. how easy it's to understand :). Or call it coding style :P
10:04:47 <Rubidium> petern: so you're advocating half tile trains?
10:04:48 <jerker> planetmaker: yes, and easy to construct. Write once read many... :)
10:04:58 <planetmaker> important factor is also: trainlength which it is designed for.
10:05:56 <planetmaker> the junction I posted is good for trains <~ 5 tiles. Above that it gets already less efficient
10:06:20 <planetmaker> as trains may block the other way while waiting for a free path. The limit for your compact junction is at <~2 tiles
10:06:40 <jerker> Belugas; actually writing the orders as a regualar expression whould be fine for me as well.
10:10:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15206 /trunk/src/network/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#2567]: memory corruption due to not properly cleanup up the mess when cancelling a download
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10:11:20 <thingwath> it's so funny that openttd rail junctions always look like highway junctions -- and in fact they even work in a same way :)
10:13:17 <Rubidium> sorry blathijs, that version of windows in unknown to me
10:13:48 <blathijs> Rubidium: I downloaded a unreleased preview version from the internets!
10:13:49 <thingwath> win 27, lose everything
10:14:35 <planetmaker> better win 27 than loose 42 :P
10:14:38 <petern> Rubidium, well, there is those small railcar things in ukrs and dbsetxl...
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11:39:56 <petern> i wonder what tonnes / 204 was meant to be :o
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12:54:44 * dihedral is installing xcode 2.5
13:03:29 <planetmaker> dihedral: what's the advantages to 2.4?
13:03:46 <dihedral> i dont know - it's the newest i found for Tiger
13:03:57 <planetmaker> k. Just thought you might know :)
13:04:23 <planetmaker> I might check my version :) - and I *think* it's 2.4
13:04:36 <dihedral> perhaps a new version of gcc?
13:04:42 <dihedral> that'd be nice actually :-P
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13:51:45 <petern> damn it, i still fail to see what these magic numbers are :/
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14:12:30 <Timitry> For the junctionary... ;)
14:16:04 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15207 /trunk/src/network/network_content_gui.cpp: -Add: sorting to the content list.
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14:32:31 <Sacro> fuck me that ttdrussia economy patch is fecking sweet
14:34:40 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r15208 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Remove some kind (undocumented, so who really knows) of original attempt to limit maximum tractive effort from 'realistic' acceleration.
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15:12:42 <Sacro> Can we please reword "Forbid trains and ships to make 90 degree turns"
15:12:55 <Sacro> 'from making' is much nicer
15:13:31 <dihedral> sounds like dereck zoolander
15:13:37 <dihedral> he could not turn left :-D
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15:14:05 <dihedral> the dereck zoolander center for kids who can't read good, and want to do other things good too
15:14:14 <OwenS> "Disallow trains & ships to make 90 degree turns"
15:14:19 <petern> where should i put the 'choose base graphics' button?
15:14:43 <dihedral> where you can specify the language
15:20:39 <Sacro> OwenS: no, that's not valid english
15:20:43 <Sacro> or at least it sounds horrible
15:20:57 <Sacro> also, where has the enable signal gui option gone
15:21:48 <petern> i dislike the new gui :/
15:22:42 <Sacro> editing the config is quicker
15:22:58 <petern> the console needs readline support
15:25:20 <OwenS> "Forbid trains and ships from making 90 degree turns" sounds even worse
15:29:23 <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, a more suitable name for that thing if you ask me :-D
15:29:43 <OwenS> The entire junction section on the wiki contains junk :p
15:29:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea what "braided" means, even
15:30:21 <Eddi|zuHause> honestly, i have never heard that word before
15:30:45 <dihedral> you never heard "braids"?
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15:36:02 <OwenS> Whats with all the slow juncitions in that list anyway?
15:38:44 <dihedral> OwenS, it's a wiki! can not anybody delete pages? :-P
15:41:57 <petern> you could remove content...
15:42:10 <petern> but even then they can be restored, i believe
15:43:27 <dihedral> would be quite nice if it were possible for some of those junctions :-D
15:45:11 <OwenS> Ok Qt,I've created a QListView, and attached it to a model (which has data)... yet you're not displaying it why?
15:56:31 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i hate KitKat
15:56:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i always try to open them like a Ritter Sport
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15:58:41 <OwenS> WTF is a Ritter Sport? :p
16:00:54 <dihedral> petern, CS creations are protected by his agent
16:01:06 <dihedral> and they dont sue if there is no money to be had :-P
16:01:33 <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: it's a chocolate with a patented way of opening
16:02:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the enclosing wrap opens when you break the chocolate bar in half
16:03:04 <Eddi|zuHause> you can break a KitKat in half, the same way, but it won't open the wrap
16:03:10 <dihedral> and you get 4x2 squares
16:03:22 <dihedral> hehe - have a break!
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16:09:18 <Eddi|zuHause> HackYourInternetConnectionaLittleBit?
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16:11:59 <petern> dihedral, it was the claims in some of the comments that i found funny
16:12:09 <petern> anyway, when opengfx is finished...
16:12:17 <dihedral> like the 'abandonware does check'
16:12:33 * dihedral will carry on using the originals
16:12:45 <Eddi|zuHause> "abandonia.com [...] check legality before they put something up" <- that is really awesome :p
16:13:35 <Eddi|zuHause> next step is "TPB check legality before they put something up" :p
16:22:18 <planetmaker> [16:30] <Eddi|zuHause> honestly, i have never heard that word before <-- you should read hofstatter's "and endless golden braid" then ;)
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16:32:12 <OwenS> Only difference betwen TPB and Abandonia is that Abandonia exists in a grey area :p
16:33:28 <energetic> are there any bugs known with presignals?
16:34:02 <dihedral> not that i know of :-P
16:36:02 <energetic> since I have a savegame where trains persist in violating presignals
16:36:14 <energetic> actually its now online at Kurt server #2
16:36:37 <SmatZ> energetic: one could say there is a bug in presignals when you have a "closed loop" of combo-signals, they can be set to red "forever"
16:36:45 <Eddi|zuHause> make a screenshot, and a savegame, and post what you think is wrong
16:37:06 <SmatZ> hehe, yeah, savegame would be great :)
16:37:38 <dihedral> energetic, you are not the owner of those servers are you?
16:37:53 <energetic> not spamming here :)
16:38:02 <dihedral> no - i wanted to chat to that guy
16:38:19 <dihedral> i just never get hold of him when i do try :-P
16:38:23 <dihedral> and he's never on irc
16:38:49 <energetic> I am admin on his site
16:39:01 <energetic> so maybe I can answer some questions for you>
16:39:09 <dihedral> you wanna let Kurt know that there is somebody who wants a chat? :-P
16:39:39 <dihedral> i am interested in the underlying bot
16:39:49 <energetic> delicate....delicate...
16:40:13 <dihedral> no - i dont want a copy
16:40:48 <dihedral> i just have thoughts, questions, ideas, etc.... and Kurt could be of some good help :-)
16:41:50 <energetic> but keep in mind it is his baby
16:42:37 <energetic> i think it is your lucky day
16:45:37 <SmatZ> energetic: which server is it? Kurt's hard goal?
16:45:45 <energetic> yes, but it is already restarted
16:45:55 <energetic> so the savegame is gone. I have it on my hd though
16:46:51 <SmatZ> there have been ~2 bug reports about trains ignoring signals, but none with savegame...
16:46:57 <energetic> bug report.... let me see
16:47:11 <energetic> gimme 10 min and i fix a report
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16:53:19 <SmatZ> - if (force <= 0) force = 10000;
16:53:27 <SmatZ> hehe, I really loved that line ;)
16:55:19 <Aali> so its better to have no force at all than to have <10000? great :P
16:55:27 <energetic> I think it has something to do with the positioning of the exit signals: they are "two sections"
16:56:11 <SmatZ> energetic: it's a duplicate of...
16:56:21 <petern> force could not ever be <= 0
16:56:31 <Aali> actually, I'd rather just have dinner
16:56:43 <petern> (only if power or mass was 0)
16:56:49 <OwenS> I once saw a language which took C's +=, -=, *=, etc to the extreme: =< and => were "Assignment less than" and "Assignment greater than"...
16:57:27 <petern> (or if it was going very very fast, in which case no need for an extra 10000)
16:57:39 <petern> OwenS... that's stupid
16:58:21 <OwenS> Caused lots of bugs, yes :p
16:59:03 <SmatZ> energetic: I can't find the other FS task...
16:59:30 <SmatZ> the presignals are working fine
16:59:46 <SmatZ> but the train doesn't have that station as its next order
17:00:04 <SmatZ> so it's another case of "PFs don't support dead end bouncing"
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17:25:22 <dihedral> energetic, thank you :-)
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17:29:38 <petern> can someone tell me what "0.035 * mass * speed" is meant to represent?
17:29:57 <petern> 60 * num is meant to be axle friction, i think, but i don't know where the 60 comes from
17:30:09 <petern> results are in lbf (approximately)
17:30:23 <petern> area * drag_coeff * speed * speed is obviously airdrag
17:32:58 <Zuu> How do I load the crash.dmg in msvc? If I recall what glx said one should get a file from binaries coresponding to the used nightly. The most relevant file I found is a .pdb file. I have placed it in the same directory as openttd.exe. Opening neither the .pdb-file, the .dmg-file nor the openttd.exe with the standard open dialog of msvc works. Either I am doing something wrongt or the express version of msvc 2005 don't support
17:32:58 <Zuu> getting the call trace...
17:33:48 <Zuu> (my food is on the stove so I will be afk a few minutes)
17:34:11 <glx> if you have exe, pdb corresponding to exe and dmp you just need to open the dmp in msvc
17:34:43 <glx> don't forget to rename the pdb, it should be openttd.pdb
17:36:20 <planetmaker> makes sense. it's in the order of 3% of the weight, considering iron on iron.
17:36:42 <petern> i've looked at that page a lot
17:37:12 <petern> speed is not in the formulas at all
17:38:07 <planetmaker> petern: can you give me the code lines / filename you look at?
17:38:28 <frosch123> according to the units it is a power :) is it also used as such, or needs 0.035 also a unit?
17:38:59 <frosch123> no, wrong, it is not a power :/
17:39:32 <petern> 35 is listed as "friction"
17:40:20 <petern> resistance *= 4 at the end is a rough conversion from lbf to N, should be 4.4
17:40:52 <SmatZ> constant * mass * speed is momentum
17:41:03 <Eddi|zuHause> just convert the damn thing to metric already
17:41:14 <petern> SmatZ, momentum isn't a resistive force
17:41:37 <Eddi|zuHause> momentum is an impulse, right?
17:41:38 <SmatZ> it's not, but I was trying to do a unit analysis... so I determined it is a momentum
17:41:47 <planetmaker> SmatZ: there should be no constant...
17:42:15 <SmatZ> planetmaker: hehe :-) we can measure speed in multiplies of speed of light ;)
17:42:30 <SmatZ> planetmaker: there are constants like coefficients of friction
17:42:41 <Eddi|zuHause> wait, your trains don't do 0,2c?
17:43:02 <planetmaker> SmatZ: but not for momentum :)
17:43:08 <petern> to fully use SI you need floats, so ... no
17:43:13 <planetmaker> for friction: sure :)
17:43:23 <planetmaker> that's engineering, not physics :P
17:50:06 <petern> Celestar! Celestar! Celestar!
17:52:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Beetlegeuse? (is that spelled this way?)
17:54:28 <planetmaker> if it's the star: no
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17:56:51 <petern> beetle juice... that was a dodgy film
17:57:45 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: no, i don't mean the star
17:57:57 <Zuu> glx: Thanks, I now renamed the pdb file. Still got errors when trying to open the dmg file from inside msvs 2005 c++, but I googled a bit and someone suggested double clicking the crash.dmg file. So i double clicked it and that worked. :-)
17:58:32 <glx> oh and you need source from the same rev somewhere :)
17:58:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean this stupid guy whose name you ought to say three times
17:58:55 <Zuu> glx: Yep, though the callstack is there without giving it the source it seams.
17:59:13 <glx> true, but it's often nice to see the code around the calls
17:59:30 <Zuu> yep, that won't work of course.
18:04:32 <dihedral> Yexo, did you not commit freeform map edges?
18:05:52 <Yexo> (haven't read the log yet)
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18:09:40 <planetmaker> petern: the term friction * mass * speed / 1000 - I guess it's the engine's internal friction (wheels, etc... which may go linear in speed instead of quadratic as air drag
18:09:56 <Zuu> "Assertion failed at c:\openttd\compile\src\tile_map.h:136: IsValidTile(tile)" again, when scrolling around in the minimap with company-view on autonightly server.
18:10:43 <Zuu> GetTileOwner gets called with a bad tile id (3003928), the map is 1024x1024 which shouldn't give a such high tile id I think.
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18:11:26 <glx> you have smallmap open I guess
18:11:53 <Zuu> It is fixed then, I decide :-)
18:12:24 <Zuu> next time I should read the changelog before diging up the call stack :-)
18:14:01 <dihedral> Yexo, would it be possible, to make water_borders accept another options 'random' ?
18:14:24 <Yexo> sure, it's just a value from 0-15
18:14:33 <Zuu> dihedral: Have you seen planetmakers patch?
18:14:35 <petern> and thought... "what? i don't care"
18:14:50 <Zuu> pm yes, on the dev-section of the forum.
18:15:25 <Yexo> planetmaker: there are some coding-style issues with that patch, but I like the functionality ;)
18:15:51 <planetmaker> Yexo: I found some... there's at least a super-fluous "SetDirty()"...
18:16:14 <planetmaker> And I'm not happy about the code duplication with tgp.cpp
18:16:17 <dihedral> and also, it would be quite nice if servers quit writing the game seed to the config
18:16:22 <dihedral> why is it there in the first place?
18:16:25 <Yexo> BorderDirections should be moved to some hear file, but you already knew that ;p
18:16:29 <dihedral> makes all games after a server restart the same
18:16:31 <planetmaker> dihedral: re-play
18:16:57 <planetmaker> Yexo: any good idea which is most suitable?
18:17:09 <dihedral> anyway - me has to run runns
18:17:24 <Yexo> planetmaker: the order of your widgets is inconsistent, you have NW_TEXT, NE_TEXT, NW, NE, SW_TEXT, ..
18:17:55 <Yexo> either do the four _TEXT first or mix them (NW_TEXT, _NW, NE_TEXT,..)
18:17:58 <planetmaker> right... I initially placed them differently
18:18:14 <planetmaker> first text then buttons looks much neater, I agree.
18:18:39 <planetmaker> Next to it to the right a button "random"?
18:18:49 <Yexo> four times SetWidgetDisabledState <- iirc there is a function that accepts multiple widgets, that way you don't have to duplicate the bools 4 times
18:19:08 <Yexo> not sure where a random button should go
18:19:21 <planetmaker> I would put it right of the Land/Water buttons
18:19:34 <Yexo> SetWidgetLoweredState <- missing a space before BORDER
18:20:05 <Yexo> same for ToggleBit use later
18:20:25 <planetmaker> Oh, I see. Thx for pointing out :)
18:20:47 <Yexo> and again, be consistent in the order of the directions, ie you use NW, NE, SE, SW first, but in OnPaint you use NE, NW suddenly
18:21:10 <Yexo> case GLAND_WATER_BORDERS_PULLDOWN <- just removed it, don't comment it out
18:21:34 <planetmaker> oh... that I overlooked... an embarressingly long list :(
18:21:48 <planetmaker> I guess I shouldn't code at 3am... :P
18:22:12 <Yexo> it are only small points though :)
18:22:55 <Yexo> could also have said: please comply to the coding style, that would've been a short list :p
18:23:28 <planetmaker> :) I like the long list better :)
18:25:31 <Eddi|zuHause> omg... each time you think it can't get any worse... there's always the next knight rider episode...
18:26:33 <Belugas> [13:24] <planetmaker> :) I like the long list better :) <-- should we change the coding style to appeal you more, dear planetmaker ?
18:27:02 <planetmaker> That's not what I even remotely tried to imply.
18:27:38 <planetmaker> I rather meant: I that way know better what I did wrong :) - a neat service for me instead of a brief "coding style missmatch" :)
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18:28:10 <planetmaker> I have absolutely no issue with the coding style...
18:28:46 <planetmaker> sorry, if I came across as such.
18:35:31 <planetmaker> Yexo: concerning randomization: display the chosen values (e.g. no push button for randomize, rather just like for seed)?
18:36:12 <planetmaker> shall I integrate it? I mean, it's a seperate feature, but not much work to add here...
18:36:45 <Zuu> So pushing the random button will make a random selection of which buttons are on/off. If I am reading what you are saying correctly.
18:37:00 <Zuu> That seams like a resonable solution to me.
18:37:50 <planetmaker> it's the easiest and code-wise lightest.
18:38:11 <Zuu> If you really want to have it like suprise to the user, the buttons can just be hidden, but still same solution.
18:38:27 <Zuu> But that is unneccessary complication I would say.
18:38:47 <Aali> what about dedicated servers?
18:39:03 <Aali> will they be able to randomize map borders?
18:39:20 <Yexo> if it's only a gui option, no
18:39:40 <planetmaker> hm... good point actually...
18:39:58 <planetmaker> it's so far also only a gui-only option, afaik, right?
18:40:01 <Yexo> so make random a pushbutton too and disable the other buttons if set
18:40:26 <Yexo> planetmaker: what do you mean? which map borders are water can be set in the config file
18:40:57 <planetmaker> then a pushbutton with disable manual.
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18:41:52 <slalom77> I found out that my openttd versions stores (important?) information on drive c: in the -own documents- folder, isnt that a problem when i use more than 1 different version of the game ?
18:41:54 <Zuu> I'd say have same text on it when depresed as well as when presed.
18:42:20 <planetmaker> I'd make it manual vs. random
18:42:50 <Zuu> As it will probably be depresed by default, and how would one know that pressing the button will give random.. hmm well yes disabling manual could be said to give random.
18:42:59 <Aali> slalom77: if you create a .cfg file in the working dir of ottd, it will use that instead
18:43:04 <planetmaker> and with differing texts it's easier to see what's the case.
18:43:05 <Yexo> slalom77: it's not a problem if you don't mind all versions having the same configuration
18:43:20 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r15209 /trunk/src/lang/ (19 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:43:20 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2009-01-22 18:42:44
18:43:20 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: arabic_egypt - 1 fixed by khaloofah (1)
18:43:20 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: catalan - 20 fixed by arnaullv (20)
18:43:20 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: dutch - 1 changed by Excel20 (1)
18:43:21 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: finnish - 10 fixed by jpx_ (10)
18:43:21 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: french - 1 changed by glx (1)
18:43:52 <Zuu> pm: so go for your original idea
18:44:13 * Yexo can finally reproduce squirrel trashing the stack during save :)
18:44:40 <Yexo> now fixing it is another problem...
18:45:07 <slalom77> and one more question please, my toolbar changed to different icons, for example a bomb instead of the tnt-bone, it seems not to be related with an .grf, how did i activate that ?
18:45:38 <Belugas> it's ok, planetmaker. I might have wrongly read the converstation too ^_^ happens a lot
18:45:43 <Zuu> At least the toolbar from OpenGFX.
18:45:57 <slalom77> there was something with opengfx true
18:46:57 <Yexo> it's under the category "base graphics"
18:47:29 <slalom77> got it:If you downloaded OpenGFX manually: delete all OpenGFX related files from the OpenTTD data directory:
18:48:12 <slalom77> in a few month i know all optins/addons and can start playing :-)
18:50:06 <slalom77> i found a very intersting mod where city growth depends on delivery of different goods, but its a very old version, did anyone hear about a newer version of this or similar mods ?
18:51:47 <Zuu> slalom77: If you play desert or artic landscape in the original OpenTTD without any newgrfs you will need to deliver certain goods to towns in desert/snowy areas to have them growing.
18:53:25 <slalom77> someone implemented this to the normal landscape, and added a few new indutries, gold, water etc...
18:53:58 <Zuu> And speaking about 'mods' (we don't use that word in the OpenTTD community), there are mainly two types: newgrfs and patches. NewGRFs are graphics files you load into OpenTTD. Patches are source code modifications which require that you recompile OpenTTD.
18:54:15 <Zuu> slalom77: You could try the grfcrawler
18:56:43 <slalom77> u mean grfcrawler, the website, didnt find it there already
18:57:05 <Belugas> Spin Off is not a mod, it's a branch, even a fork
18:57:17 <Zuu> slalom77: Then look for "OpenTTD spinoff beta 2" on the forums, though it is quite dead now.
18:57:18 <Belugas> and it's not "u", it's "you" ;)
18:57:52 <Zuu> (forums being tt-forums.net)
18:59:51 <edeca> Hm, does trunk compile on cygwin for anybody else?
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19:00:53 <petern> one of my new 'realistic acceleration' equations requires a / 256...
19:00:55 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody ever compiled on cygwin
19:01:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i was being ironic
19:01:30 <Zuu> edeca: nightlies are compiled on msvc currently
19:01:41 <Zuu> (the windows nightlies that is)
19:01:54 <edeca> Zuu: Hm, from memory that requires some weird combination of DirectX? I might have a look at the wiki and try again.
19:01:59 <Eddi|zuHause> edeca: possibly, you might get better results by stating the actual problem
19:02:19 <edeca> Fails when linking: /lib/libz.a(gzio.o):gzio.c:(.text+0xd3): undefined reference to `___errno'
19:03:07 <Zuu> edeca: Yes you need to read on the wiki page and install the specified direct x versions to be able to use msvc, but reading the wiki is not so hard. :-)
19:03:19 <edeca> Zuu: Nope, that's fine :)
19:04:50 <planetmaker> hm... I've been searching the code now for quite some time, but still not sure. What's the appropriate way to get a 4 bit random number?
19:05:21 <Zuu> planetmaker: There is interactive random which I guess is safe for this application, but more in detail I don't know.
19:05:29 <Yexo> GB(InteractiveRandom(), 0, 4)
19:05:34 <slalom77> im surprised that nobody uses "u" anymore instead of "you" ... for a while it was very usual, no ?
19:05:51 <planetmaker> slalom77: and for non-natives rather tricky to read
19:05:51 <Yexo> slalom77: only on those too lazy to writer proper english
19:07:50 <Zuu> Also there is a distinct difference between using acronyms such as IIRC etc. than using 'u' for you or '1' for one etc.
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19:27:15 <nicfer> one question, is there an aircraft set that combines with the GRVTS?
19:28:59 <Aali> is there an aircraft set that doesn't?
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19:29:59 <nicfer> I mean, in 1800 you'll have trains and buses but not aircrafts or ships
19:30:08 <nicfer> trains with the 2cc trainset
19:30:45 <planetmaker> nicfer: do you consider that desirable to have planes prior to ~1900?
19:31:35 <nicfer> wasn't the game avoiding realism?
19:31:43 <planetmaker> It saves space and makes orientation of the directions clear
19:32:08 <edeca> What benefit does land at the edges give?
19:32:11 <planetmaker> nicfer: no. Nor was it simulating reality
19:32:33 <planetmaker> edeca: nicer scenarios?
19:32:51 <Progman> planetmaker: the randomise button a checkbbox which disable the edge buttons?
19:32:52 <nicfer> I mean, if we're avoiding realism, why not also put planes before 1900?
19:33:09 <planetmaker> Progman: not now. It will just randomize the four edges.
19:33:33 <planetmaker> I'm still not convinced that it shall disable manual configuration of those...
19:33:42 <Progman> indeed, but should be depend on the random seed
19:33:43 <planetmaker> it will need another variable :)
19:33:55 <planetmaker> Progman: that it doesn't either...
19:34:43 <Aali> nicfer: there's nothing to stop you from putting in planes before 1900
19:34:45 <edeca> planetmaker: Makes sense.
19:35:03 <Aali> that said, its incredibly silly to use the realism or no realism argument to try to get what you want
19:37:35 <edeca> Aali: You mean there might be things in the game that *aren't* realistic?
19:37:49 <nicfer> yes, there is: the incapacity of creating newgrfs
19:40:26 <planetmaker> Yexo: is it ok to save the desire to have randomized borders in the same enum as BORDER_NW, ...?
19:40:35 <planetmaker> as an additional enum entry?
19:40:48 <Yexo> not really sure, but do so for now
19:42:17 <Yexo> planetmaker: the strings look like they're a few pixels too high wrt the buttons
19:42:34 <planetmaker> yes. I think that, too. I fixed that meanwhile.
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19:47:09 <Yexo> looks like the return value for a DoCommand is stored at the wrong place if a save happens during the docommand
19:47:16 * Yexo is happy to found the cause :)
19:47:22 <Aali> yeah, that page could pretty much replace every other 3-way junction in the wiki
19:48:33 <Yexo> Timitry: the coop guys would want a "Advanced 3-way junction with doubled briges " where the length over both bridges is equal
19:48:53 <Timitry> Yes, i know, i used to play a lot on their servers :)
19:49:00 <Yexo> but it's a nice summery of the best 3-way junctions on the wiki
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19:50:12 <Timitry> But explaining now that like this trains might cause phatom-jams because the ones travelling over the lower bridges will need a little bit longer might be a bit over the top :D
19:51:04 <OwenS> Yexo, they wouldn't care since they don't do LR to LR junctions nayway :p
19:51:20 <Timitry> Well, but this applies to any kind of bridge doubling :)
19:51:27 <Timitry> Even if its LLLLL____RRRRRR
19:51:57 <OwenS> If you have 5 lanes per direction, your doing something ridiculous anyway :p
19:52:14 <Timitry> nah, but sometimes only 2 tiles :D
19:52:22 <Timitry> psg #75 was fuuuuuuuuuun
19:52:49 <Aali> psg114? had 5-lane mainline IIRC
19:54:28 <Timitry> 256x256 map with TL2... My first real game with OpenTTDCoop, i totally loved it :)
19:54:39 <Aali> and the game i was refering to was 115
19:54:52 <OwenS> Some ass flattened my first PSG game in the days before autosaves =(
19:56:03 <OwenS> My first game would be 6.9 in the current numbering (As is, my first game is SB#7 :p)
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20:15:11 <Wolf01> I have a suggestion about the freeform edges, especially the combo box to choose which edges should be water when generating a random map: why not use icons to show the interested edges instead of writings?
20:15:24 <Yexo> Wolf01: planetmaker is working on that
20:17:56 <Wolf01> I think it is not possible to use small icons on a combo box, is it?
20:18:07 <planetmaker> Hm.... is there a widget for right aligned text?
20:18:20 <glx> but buttons are better in this case
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20:18:51 <Darkvater> any luck with freetype glx ?
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20:24:08 <Wolf01> not so complicate, just 4 buttons with a picture in the middle showing if it's water or soil
20:25:05 <petern> one problem i see is "i don't want the whole edge to be land"
20:26:48 <planetmaker> petern: that's not what happens. But it _may_ be land
20:26:48 <Wolf01> yes, that's also a problem I didn't thought about (I only tried a little how the new feature works)
20:27:14 <petern> planetmaker: i know, but it is not clear from the options
20:28:05 <Aali> perhaps its better to name the options "Water" and "Freeform"
20:28:06 <planetmaker> So... better wording needed :)
20:28:23 <planetmaker> :) probably better idea, Aali
20:29:52 <petern> freeform is the word used elsewhere, so
20:31:33 <glx> Darkvater: MSVC 2005 fails to link with freetype from MSVC 2008
20:31:44 <glx> 3>libfreetype2.lib(autofit.obj) : fatal error LNK1103: debugging information corrupt; recompile module
20:31:47 <Darkvater> glx: also with __cdecl as in mine?
20:33:39 <Darkvater> hmm, well I remember msvc2005 support was dropped some time ago no?
20:33:56 <Darkvater> glx: does 2008 link with version of 2005?
20:35:02 <Darkvater> probably 2008 is being magicky
20:35:30 <glx> libfreetype2.lib size is different with 2005 and 2008
20:35:40 <glx> (smaller by 5KB with 2008)
20:35:50 <glx> for other libs no differences
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20:37:45 <Vikthor> I have run into the issue with BaNaNaS - I would like to upload few Tycoonez grfs of which I am not the author, but I have permission of the author, what shall I do?
20:38:42 <Aali> you shall get the author to do it
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20:40:12 <Vikthor> he is not interested to do so, but he does not mind if somebody else does that
20:40:43 <petern> this 75mph train only reaches 68mph :/
20:40:43 <Aali> then you will have to wait until the rules change
20:41:54 <planetmaker> Vikthor: that's the CSD sets or grfs from there?
20:42:37 <Vikthor> Well so far I have only minimes agreement, so only Czech Town names, unifont and others
20:44:04 <planetmaker> Best would indeed be, if you could talk him into uploading it himself.
20:46:13 <Vikthor> Sure, but that's probably not going to happen, at least not very soon, he is quite busy with migration of our forums to new machine and of course Real life
20:47:07 <planetmaker> yeah... as usual :S
20:47:17 <Vikthor> The idea was I will handle the bananas stuff for him and probably others
20:47:35 <planetmaker> are you co-author?
20:47:46 <Wolf01> gah... I have 2 scenarios unloadable because they have grfs... there's a way to clean all the grfs from a scenario (maybe keep the terrain only)?
20:47:47 <petern> you could pretend to be him and say no more ;)
20:48:19 <Vikthor> petern: Good solution, but it came too late :)
20:48:51 <Yexo> imo if you have the authors permission to upload it you should be able to
20:48:54 <petern> or: ask him to create an account and, er,yeah
20:49:05 <planetmaker> hm, where do I find all those widget templates? I just don't find it...
20:49:12 <planetmaker> I need right aligned strings...
20:49:54 <Yexo> planetmaker: window_gui.h
20:50:00 <Yexo> but there are no right-alligned strings I think
20:50:59 <Vikthor> Yexo: Well, that's what I thought, but the Agreement when registering for manager says otherwise
20:51:26 <Yexo> I know, but I'm not the one who can change it
20:51:39 <Vikthor> That's TrueBrain, right?
20:52:49 <Yexo> but I doubt it'll be changed, as that makes checking if uploaded things are really uploaded by their author nearly impossible
20:53:58 <Rubidium> we don't want to get into fights with authors because "someone" uploaded their stuff to the content system
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20:54:48 <Rubidium> so only when you are author of the content you may upload it. That way the author knows exactly where he is getting into instead of hearing some stories from someone without knowing the fine details
20:56:14 <planetmaker> otherwise I could upload 80% of the #openttdcoop grfpack :)
20:58:40 <planetmaker> you may remember me asking you and the tycoonez people about automatic download, Vikthor :)
20:59:34 <Vikthor> planetmaker: I do, IIRC we settled on that that the licence Tycoonez uses is OK for that purpose, right?
20:59:53 <planetmaker> except the train set itself
21:00:01 <Aali> the multiple authors system (assuming that will be implemented) should include an easy way for people to make someone co-author just for the purpose of uploading their stuff
21:00:30 <Aali> so the author still has to visit the site, read the terms etc, but doesn't have to deal with the actual uploading process
21:01:12 <Vikthor> Aali: Ahh right, so if I tell them to write me down as, say "Release Manager", everything will be all-right?
21:01:28 <Eddi|zuHause> "author" can only be someone who holds the copyright
21:01:33 <Aali> there is no multiple authors system yet, so no :P
21:01:35 <Eddi|zuHause> what you want is a designated "maintainer"
21:02:31 <Aali> Eddi|zuHause: this isn't a court of law, I don't care about the proper legal terms, you know what I meant etc :P
21:05:37 <planetmaker> Hm... there's DrawStringRightAligned(x_right,y,string,TC_FROMSTRING,width) ...
21:05:46 <planetmaker> I wonder whether it will do.
21:06:22 <planetmaker> it's no widget, though... no. I'll leave it then.
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21:15:31 <Pieman191> any tips while playing an online match?
21:16:13 <planetmaker> and in case of doubt play on a server where you like the rules
21:16:44 <Belugas> or one where you can blackmail the admin to gain advantages
21:16:59 <planetmaker> those are the best :)
21:17:16 <planetmaker> you know... sometimes it's advantages to be an admin :D
21:17:59 <Pieman191> I mean, how to make money fast
21:18:22 <Yexo> exactly the same as in singleplayer :p
21:18:50 <Yexo> try building a few planes, or if that's not possible a coal train line
21:19:20 <fjb> And feed the planes with bus networks in the towns.
21:19:50 <Pieman191> I only get 100k starting money in online
21:20:02 <Pieman191> so the coal train sounds like a good idea
21:20:03 <Yexo> that changes from server to server
21:27:57 <planetmaker> I wish you luck :)
21:28:29 <planetmaker> think of the children :D
21:28:41 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody said anything with "f" :p
21:29:06 <Yexo> planetmaker: can you use SetWidgetsDisabledState instead of 5 times SetWidgetDisabledState ?
21:29:13 <Eddi|zuHause> you are leaking air
21:29:38 <planetmaker> Yexo: I tried to combine it, but I didn't figure how...
21:30:05 <Yexo> this->SetWidgetsDisabledState(bool, widget1, widget2, ..., WIDGET_LIST_END);
21:30:19 <Pieman191> Anyway to stop these annoying "game connection lost" errors?
21:30:27 <Belugas> [16:28] <@Belugas> i'll have a *uck <---i did!!!
21:30:31 <Yexo> yes, fix your internet connection
21:30:37 <Belugas> ibut i put on the censure flag :)
21:31:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Belugas: is that like automatically replacing your password?
21:31:28 <Eddi|zuHause> like this: ********
21:31:48 <Pieman191> this is the only game I get disconnected alot in
21:33:27 <planetmaker> doh... I didn't see the "s" in SetWidgetSDisabledState... - that's why
21:33:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: glx * r15210 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Fix: Vehicle::GetRunningCost() was wrong for ships and aircraft
21:35:21 <petern> GetPriceByIndex should be used
21:35:37 <petern> not _price.aircraft_running
21:35:43 <Yexo> planetmaker: why the BORDER_RANDOM bit?
21:36:07 <planetmaker> Yexo: to store the desire to have random borders.
21:36:18 <Yexo> but you never use that except in the gui code
21:36:21 <planetmaker> And it could - at the same time - possibly be re-used in the config file
21:36:32 <planetmaker> But it's possible to extend that
21:36:52 <Yexo> if you do that, don't make it a bit but a special value (16), so you either store random or a bitset of the borders
21:37:12 <planetmaker> Borders is a bitset now anyway. 4 bits are used.
21:37:24 <planetmaker> I thought the highest bit might be a good choice to indicate ranomness.
21:37:31 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: how about, instead of a pressed/unpressed button, which is totally counter intuitive, why not have a button that cycles through the options? (water, land, random)?
21:37:48 <Yexo> planetmaker: it's not, because that breaks the save/load code (the value is capped to 0-15)
21:38:11 <planetmaker> ok... so I make it a local var then.
21:38:24 <Yexo> why does it need to be a var at all?
21:38:33 <Yexo> just have a button to randomize the choices
21:38:54 <Yexo> I know, that doesn't give the option for servers
21:39:19 <Yexo> if you want that, then use the value 16 as special value for random, and move the GB(InteractiveRandom(), 0, BORDER_MAX - BORDER_MIN + 1) to tgp.cpp
21:39:24 <planetmaker> then without disabling the other 4 widgets?
21:39:51 <Yexo> no, you either have random or you set them manually
21:39:58 <Eddi|zuHause> what people might also wonder is what exactly does that "randomize" button affect? borders? roughness, etc? the random seed? [which already has a randomize button]
21:40:06 <planetmaker> Yexo: might be interesting for dedicated servers to have them random edges.
21:40:33 <Yexo> ok if I modify your patch a bit?
21:42:24 <planetmaker> To me the most intuitive way to use a randomize button would be to set random values to the 4 borders, but not disable the possibility to edit it again (like my patch does now)
21:45:04 <Zuu> Maybe even do the randomization based on the seed, so there is only one random button. hmmm
21:45:21 <Yexo> planetmaker: I'll make sure it works that way :)
21:45:27 <planetmaker> yeah, thought about that but got no good idea how to implement that.
21:45:43 <planetmaker> Yexo: he... I understood you that you wanted the way I implemented it :)
21:45:58 <Yexo> planetmaker: approximatly
21:46:24 <planetmaker> the better is the good one's enemy ;)
21:46:34 <planetmaker> brb (15 minutes or so)
21:47:51 <Zuu> planetmaker: Read 4 bits from the seed and use those as states for the four buttons? Like the least or most significant bits or some in the middle.
21:48:31 <Yexo> that means that clicking the randomize button changes the state of the buttons for water edges
21:48:42 <Yexo> that might be kind of unexpected, seeing it doesn't change any other values
21:48:50 <Zuu> Not sure exactly how one would do it, but should be possible. One have to make sure it works the same on endianes.
21:49:41 <Zuu> Yexo: Hmm, yes that is true. Only things that happen after you press generate are affected by the seed.
21:50:02 <Rubidium> Zuu: endianness isn't something to worry about
21:50:19 <Rubidium> except when you start writing stuff to somewhere outside OpenTTD
21:50:30 <Rubidium> (network, disk, screen)
21:50:32 <planetmaker> Yexo: solution: don't show the random values with the buttons, but only hand over them, when generate is pressed.
21:50:45 <Yexo> planetmaker: wait 5 mins and you'll see my solution
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21:51:07 <Zuu> But then why should only water border have a random button, but not all other stuff in the dialog.. hehe many questions..
21:51:42 <planetmaker> because it's part of the map.
21:51:57 <planetmaker> actually I would just kick the "freeform edge setting" and leave it always on :D
21:53:33 <Aali> I have no issue with it being a simple on/off setting
21:54:40 <Aali> that would make things so much easier
21:55:56 <Zuu> Also a user don't have that much use of a random button. The main use for random would be servers, but those are excluded currently.
21:56:01 *** fawlty is now known as angelo
21:56:11 * Zuu is good on argumenting for both sides :-p
21:57:56 <Zuu> At TE we had a weekly discussion topic that we had extra focus on everey week :-D (Transport Empire for those who was not there 4 years ago)
22:02:18 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r15211 /trunk/src/saveload/oldloader.cpp: -Fix (r15190): loading of TTD savegames was broken
22:07:09 <Yexo> servers can set game_create.water_borders to 16 to get random water borders
22:08:01 <planetmaker> that's important, too IMO
22:08:26 <Yexo> there is no way to set value 16 from the gui, but that's not needed either
22:10:49 <Rubidium> what about CTRL-click random setting the value to 16?
22:11:25 <fjb> Hm, how do I begin and end a business letter in English?
22:11:32 <planetmaker> Rubidium: if you can set a random thing anyway, why have a 2nd way?
22:11:43 <Rubidium> you begin the letter with an address ;)
22:11:59 <planetmaker> only gain is: you don't know what borders will be what ;)
22:12:11 <Yexo> Rubidium: how do display that in the gui? disable the buttons?
22:12:24 <Yexo> why does the gui need a random value at all (except for randomizing current choices)
22:12:25 <fjb> I mean after the address.
22:12:41 <Rubidium> fjb: have you tried googling it?
22:12:49 <Zuu> fjb: Hi name, <new line><body> Best regards, <new line>fjb
22:13:17 <Zuu> But a comma after the name is what they use in English.
22:13:21 <fjb> Google gives many different results. Is "Hi" usual in a business letter?
22:13:31 <Zuu> (Swedes prefere an exclamation mark after the name)
22:13:53 <fjb> What are the proper formal terms?
22:14:36 <fjb> We are using a "," in Germany. :-)
22:14:43 * planetmaker 's laptop still compiles...
22:14:56 * Zuu taps on planetmaker's laptop
22:14:59 <Yexo> planetmaker: you want the version with the language changes?
22:15:02 <dihedral> While we are at the random stuff for map creation....
22:15:10 <Yexo> there are a bit more (you should svn up)
22:15:23 <planetmaker> Yexo: I don't need other languages. But keeping the old strings there gave compile warnings.
22:15:29 <dihedral> can there be a setting for the generation seed, that marks 'random' and tells the game to not overwrite that value when saving the config again?
22:15:34 <planetmaker> I pulled latest trunk
22:16:03 <Aali> ctrl-click could depress the random button, deactivate the manual settings and set the config value to 16
22:16:21 <planetmaker> oh, wait. english.txt isn't changed in your patch either.
22:16:34 <planetmaker> compile failure :)
22:16:38 <Yexo> but I didn't change anything compared to your patch
22:16:49 <Yexo> and I think STR_SET_BORDERS_MANUALLY can be removed now
22:16:58 <petern> mov ebx,683,,...// 2.669*256
22:17:12 <SmatZ> petern: what are you doing?
22:17:23 <petern> SmatZ: still comparing acceleration models
22:17:27 <Rubidium> SmatZ: what he has been doing for the last few weeks ;)
22:17:29 <petern> someone's done a goodger_ there
22:17:54 <fjb> RS-SM: What is the proper greeting nowadays?
22:17:55 <SmatZ> petern: Rubidium: thanks :-)
22:18:00 <Rubidium> why, cause 683 is in hex?
22:18:10 <Zuu> Night guys, better be fresh tomorrow.. logistics lecture tomorrow - with "beer game" :-)
22:18:16 <petern> or, perhaps, i have :o
22:19:19 <petern> when i use ttdpatch's model, it doesn't work :/
22:19:43 <RS-SM> It is either Greeting, or Hello
22:20:19 <fjb> Rubidium: I love you. :-P
22:25:26 <planetmaker> he... I nearly had that behaviour of the worldgen gui after half the time :)
22:27:05 <planetmaker> except that the random button switched between pressed and not pressed
22:28:15 <planetmaker> Yexo: :) so it's cool with you?
22:28:32 <Yexo> I like this a lot better than the dropdown box
22:28:44 <planetmaker> :) I guess you're not alone ;)
22:29:11 <Yexo> SmatZ already suggested button before, but I didn't found a nice way to implement them in the gui
22:29:53 <Yexo> last patch I uploaded was ok?
22:32:08 <planetmaker> I needed to add them
22:32:24 <planetmaker> it now has the other languages again...
22:32:50 <planetmaker> I didn't change other things, no
22:33:56 <planetmaker> I didn't test the server function yet, though
22:36:26 <planetmaker> because well... doesn't work on this machine :S
22:38:43 <planetmaker> but alas, that's my LAN :)
22:40:45 <SmatZ> Yexo: planetmaker: maybe those buttons are too near to each other, what do you think?
22:41:09 <planetmaker> SmatZ: I actually placed them that close on purpose - for two reasons.
22:41:15 <fjb> If bind doesn't work use Pattex.
22:41:25 <planetmaker> a) it represents the map with its 4 quadrants
22:41:29 <SmatZ> are you sure "Freeform" is appropriate? I think "Land/Water" is better...
22:41:32 <planetmaker> b) it's the available space
22:41:43 <SmatZ> because you can always freeform water adges
22:41:49 <planetmaker> SmatZ: talk with petern - and the feature is called such
22:41:52 <Rubidium> c) it gives translators a challenge
22:42:16 <planetmaker> That will be done anyway :)
22:42:18 <Yexo> SmatZ: non-water edges are not 100% land (they may even be mostly water)
22:42:27 <SmatZ> and similiar, when you level the map, all edges will be flooded
22:42:47 <SmatZ> translation of "water/land" is easy ; translation of "freeform" isn't
22:42:55 <planetmaker> SmatZ: only water edge ensures 100% water. The other setting allows anything from 100% land to 100% water
22:43:13 <planetmaker> "Anything" was something I considered.
22:43:15 <SmatZ> Yexo: still I think "land" is better...
22:43:31 <planetmaker> "Random" another or maybe "Arbitrary"
22:43:51 <planetmaker> SmatZ: take much water and it will be 90% water despite.
22:43:57 <planetmaker> Quite confusing, if you ask me
22:43:57 * SmatZ would stick with "pevnina (land)" in translations anyway
22:44:36 <Yexo> planetmaker: I tend to agree with SmatZ, as a lot of the rest of the map is water in that case too
22:45:03 <SmatZ> maybe then let people choose "which edges have to be water" or so... but I think it's too complicated :)
22:45:22 <planetmaker> loool :) I think you should take my 2nd version of the patch, Yexo :)
22:46:01 <SmatZ> [23:42:21] <Rubidium> c) it gives translators a challenge <== it is a "pro" or "con"? :-P
22:46:06 <planetmaker> That's why I would distinguish between "water" and "arbitrary"
22:58:01 <Rubidium> that looks way better
22:59:10 <Aali> and what happens if you click the randomise button?
22:59:24 <Yexo> Aali: the buttons are set in a random state
22:59:43 <petern> text alignment is wrong
23:00:10 <Yexo> it's the same as for the labels above though
23:00:58 <planetmaker> Yexo: the text looks better, if you missalign by two pixels.
23:01:03 <Aali> random map borders should be part of the generating process, not a GUI thing IMO
23:01:14 <petern> "smoothness:" is also misaligned
23:01:28 <planetmaker> Aali: but you should have the ability to choose which borders are water. That's a good thing
23:01:43 <planetmaker> Especially, if you design scenarios.
23:02:07 <planetmaker> petern: but they're at the same y-offset
23:02:17 <Yexo> the other texts are 1 px lower then the buttons,but the smoothness text is 1px higher instead
23:02:20 <planetmaker> as the buttons they *should* be aligned with
23:02:35 <Aali> but it would be nice if the random button just disabled the manual part and set the config variable
23:02:50 <planetmaker> Aali: that it does.
23:03:07 <planetmaker> But you can change the randomized value by hand again. Nothing wrong with that
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23:03:35 <Yexo> the random button just sets it to a random value, not to RANDOM
23:03:52 <planetmaker> randomize randomizes the values - Yes. but effectively the same
23:04:13 <Aali> planetmaker: not the same
23:04:21 <petern> dedicated server, for instance
23:04:28 <petern> you need a value for random
23:04:33 <Aali> next time you generate a map, you'll get the same "random" unless you change it
23:04:34 <planetmaker> petern: that's done
23:04:43 <Yexo> it's just not possible to set that via the gui
23:05:23 <petern> personally i think it's creeping into having far too many options :/
23:06:10 <planetmaker> well. a server needs a random map border while a human not necessarily does.
23:06:57 <planetmaker> Aali: the manual borders are also saved. So you'll re-create it.
23:07:06 <planetmaker> it's the same variable.
23:07:41 <Aali> I want to be able to set the config to RANDOM from the GUI, that's all
23:08:20 <Yexo> for one because then you can use restart and get different water edges
23:08:41 <planetmaker> which I consider rather a bug.
23:08:48 <planetmaker> if I don't change anything
23:08:55 <Yexo> hmm, not restart but newgame of course :)
23:09:55 <planetmaker> well... but that's mostly for dedicated servers. But alas. connecting the randomize button ther doesn't hurt
23:12:08 <planetmaker> Yexo: then make "randomize map edges" a pushtxtbutton which - again - disables the manual thingy and then sets it to BORDER_RANDOM
23:12:23 <Yexo> planetmaker: doing exactly that :p
23:26:18 <Yexo> labels still need to be lowered 1px
23:26:23 <Rubidium> there'll always be someone unhappy ;)
23:30:47 <planetmaker> Makes life so much more pleasant :)
23:31:39 <SmatZ> Yexo: I think it should be "Manual", not "Manually"
23:39:53 <Yexo> Rubidium / SmatZ: any comments?
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