IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2009-01-01
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00:10:16 <thingwath> happy new year to our UTC friends :-) (even though I don't really believe it is going to be happy)
00:10:39 <benjamingoodger> my computer helpfully crashed due to the leap second
00:18:18 <tokai> impact of time
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01:10:10 <Wolf01> 'night
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02:41:21 <XeryusTC> HAPPY NEW YEAR
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02:46:34 <goodger> indeed
02:56:40 <murr4y> yeah, what he said
03:05:39 <Belugas> From the bottom of my heart, happy new year to ya all. I still have 2 hours to go, but i'll just go crashing in my bed instead
03:05:45 <Belugas> so ENJOY AND BE GOOD!
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03:12:17 <nicfer> happy new year from me, too
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04:10:37 <Eddi|zuHause> happy you know what...
04:10:51 <goodger> thank you, Eddi|zuHause
04:12:22 <Eddi|zuHause> hm. it's still another hour in new york
04:14:57 <goodger> I thought you were german?
04:15:35 <Eddi|zuHause> does that mean i am too selfish to care for people half around the world?ßß
04:16:40 <goodger> traditional wisdom suggests "yes"
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04:17:35 <goodger> however, I don't think so
04:17:41 <goodger> nonetheless, I don't think you need to
04:30:05 <murr4y> evolution suggests compassion for other humans being a generally good idea
04:30:30 <murr4y> however that applies more to people you are likely to meet again, like family and friends, more than strangers half-way around the world
04:31:15 <goodger> *nod*
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04:31:42 <goodger> I don't think anyone will beat the london fireworks this year :P
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08:31:22 <petern> heh
08:31:31 <goodger> hello petern
08:31:34 <petern> "They said the law, which makes it illegal to discriminate against gay applicants, went against their beliefs."
08:31:46 <goodger> burn them!
08:31:58 <petern> which is precisely why the law is there...
08:32:05 <goodger> indeed so.
08:32:08 <petern> yeah, burn the catholics!
08:32:12 <goodger> heh
08:32:20 <petern> oh wait, that was a few hundred years ago
08:32:22 <goodger> "cold is God's way of telling us to burn more Catholics!"
08:32:52 <goodger> I recommend burning many of them nowadays
08:33:12 <petern> yeah, i believe that too
08:33:16 <goodger> they are largely responsible, for instance, for the AIDS plague in Africa
08:33:19 <petern> unfortunately there are laws against my beliefs!
08:33:26 <goodger> indeed
08:33:43 <petern> responsible for?
08:34:06 <goodger> yes. the pope sits, year after year, wearing his silly hat, and telling people never to use condoms
08:34:24 <goodger> and, resultantly, practically everyone in subsaharan africa does not use a condom
08:34:36 <petern> ah yes
08:34:39 <goodger> and, resultantly, what seems like all of them have contracted HIV
08:36:19 <goodger> hmm... dissecting the events of my novel into bullet points, it seems that the parts _shown_ in the novel are about 30% of the story
08:36:53 <goodger> so I had better learn how to write exposition.
08:38:44 <petern> hmm
08:38:52 <petern> start with the e :)
08:39:05 <goodger> indeed...
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09:35:19 <petern> argh
09:35:22 <petern> tesco need shooting
09:35:33 <petern> the local one is closed, and there is a sign that says
09:35:42 <petern> "You're local Express Store will be open as normal"
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09:38:56 <goodger> petern: it is new year's day, after all
09:39:15 <goodger> do you even have a local tesco express? we don't...
09:39:21 <goodger> we have a coop, and they're closed
09:42:54 <petern> yeah
09:42:57 <petern> we do
09:43:03 <petern> but it was the "You're" :o
09:43:11 <goodger> oh, I see
09:43:20 <goodger> that's just the store managers
09:43:53 <goodger> poor grammar is a by-product of stupidity, which is required to desire/attain employment at Tesco
09:47:10 <petern> no
09:47:15 <petern> it's a big printed sign
09:47:18 <petern> not hand written :)
09:47:38 <goodger> even stupid people have access to printers in these, the late 2000s
09:47:55 <petern> i see
09:48:18 <dihedral> i always preferred saisburry's
09:48:21 <petern> one that prints full colour on a 4m x 1m (ish) canvas?
09:48:35 <goodger> yep
09:49:00 <goodger> no point in making such signs centrally and shipping them from cheshunt at short notice
09:49:13 <petern> the sainsbury's here sucks
09:49:25 <goodger> all sainsburys suck
09:49:35 <goodger> sainsbury in general sucks
09:49:43 <petern> not been in any others recently, heh
09:49:49 <petern> (recently being about 10 years)
09:50:08 <goodger> sainsbury has forgotten how to be sainsbury
09:50:19 <goodger> they're trying to be wal-mart, but they don't have the floor space
09:51:32 <petern> hehe
09:51:46 <petern> our sainsburys had refurbishment in 2005
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09:51:57 <petern> there was absolutely no difference except to the entrance and exit areas
09:52:05 <Wolf01> hello!
09:52:10 <goodger> heh
09:52:12 <goodger> hello wolf
09:52:14 <goodger> 01
09:52:15 <goodger> damn
09:52:18 <goodger> hello Wolf01
09:52:22 <Wolf01> :)
09:52:24 <petern> "Customers at the new-look store will benefit from a brand new delicatessen, a new ATM and a new kiosk."
09:52:28 <petern> £2.5 million for that...
09:52:32 <goodger> *nod*
09:54:41 <goodger> that will soon be worth three euros and sixty-nine cents
09:58:58 <dihedral> petern, in oxford there was a really nice sainsburry's i used to go to - tesco's there really sucked :-P
09:59:12 <dihedral> it was alway to crammed full to suit my shopping taste :-P
09:59:41 <dihedral> and some of their products were really horrible (imo)
09:59:51 <dihedral> but, that is a few years ago no
09:59:52 <dihedral> w
10:05:55 * goodger has finished repairing his firefox profile and cursing mozcorp extensively
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10:13:01 <goodger> hrrm
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10:16:05 <goodger> hrrrm!
10:19:24 <petern> gah
10:19:33 <petern> system crawling :o
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10:24:12 <goodger> one of my friends wanted more murders in the book (he specified 9001, in fact), so I started by naming a character after him and having them murdered
10:24:46 <goodger> this was inexplicably considered odd behaviour
10:31:47 <petern> hah
10:33:23 <dihedral> i would consider it some very good humor :-)
10:34:08 <goodger> I'm sure you would
10:34:35 <goodger> perhaps a chat room full of transport simulator enthusiasts is not the best target for such discussion
10:35:03 <dihedral> :-P
10:35:22 <dihedral> hehe - i see Muxy had some joins..
10:35:27 <dihedral> he started sending me emails
10:35:38 <dihedral> just as "fierce" as his forum replies - LOL
10:35:48 <goodger> eh?
10:36:09 <dihedral> just some kid getting irate over nothing
10:36:21 <goodger> what was the nothing in question?
10:36:27 <goodger> I could do with some moderate amusement
10:36:45 <dihedral>
10:39:32 <goodger> hm
10:39:48 <Wolf01> O_O really useful indeed
10:39:48 <dihedral> it's not really that funny
10:39:52 <goodger> he is a little disgruntled, isn't he
10:40:06 <dihedral> a wee bit yeah
10:40:48 <goodger> what's that about fixing links before the new year?
10:41:36 <dihedral> he found some links to some patches of mine, which i had removed from my server, so the links 404'd
10:41:45 <goodger> ah
10:41:47 <dihedral> and he wanted me to fix the links
10:41:50 <goodger> ¬.¬
10:42:01 <goodger> it's the time frame I find a little annoying
10:42:36 <dihedral> "And also, instead of saying people : "hey sir, why dont you search
10:42:36 <dihedral> yourself into the forum to something we already have discuss ?", please,
10:42:36 <dihedral> because you know it, give the link : share your knowledges. But i agree, as
10:42:37 <dihedral> old forum guy (you), it's quite irritating to see newby (me) posting
10:42:39 <dihedral> something that could have been talked before..."
10:42:42 <dihedral> from his second email
10:42:59 <goodger> 0.o
10:43:08 <dihedral> i told him i dont see the need to do the work (searching) for him :-P
10:43:12 <goodger> he has a point.
10:43:27 <goodger> phpBB's search function has never worked for me
10:43:45 <dihedral> not? it worked for me, quite well on many occasions so far
10:43:59 <goodger> maybe it's my weird brain generating incorrect search terms, but phpbb's search function has never returned the correct result
10:44:26 <dihedral> i usually only give search terms, rather than links to posts
10:44:35 <dihedral> (unless it's really required)
10:44:47 <goodger> so I always conclude that the topic I searched for has not been previously discussed; this leaves me well-prepared to be shot down in flames by people going "search n00b lol" and such
10:45:04 <dihedral> hehe
10:45:31 <goodger> it's maddenning
10:47:21 <goodger> the man is probably not trying to be rude; French people seem always to sound rude no matter what they're saying, just like Germans always sound like they're shouting
10:47:43 <goodger> (though the latter effect occurs only when actually speaking German)
10:48:29 <petern> the wiki search is worse
10:48:32 <dihedral> thanks! i'll take that as a compliment :-P
10:48:45 <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, might do too
10:49:15 <goodger> petern: yeah, mediawiki's search function is pretty appalling... I think it might be something to do with jimmy wales' commercial interests
10:49:23 <dihedral> goodger, anyway - i dont have a problem with that guy! it's him who has a problem with me :-D
10:49:33 <goodger> hm, true
10:54:06 * goodger resolves to develop intravenous caffeine drip
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10:55:24 <dihedral> look what you have done!
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10:56:05 <goodger> alas, poor yorick --- we hate him, dihedralo
10:56:20 <goodger> hi yorick \o/
10:56:20 <dihedral> with a passion, goodger
10:56:48 <goodger> I don't particularly understand why
10:56:52 <dihedral> but i dont think 'hate' expresses it correctly
10:57:13 <goodger> he seems reasonably sane... could do with MPH, but sane nonetheless
10:57:48 * yorick feels like missing something
10:57:51 <dihedral> i think sanity is not relative when it comes to annoying people
10:58:10 <goodger> am I annoying?
10:58:15 <dihedral> no - not you
10:58:20 <goodger> oh, good
10:58:23 <yorick> no
10:58:29 <dihedral> ^ that kid
10:58:31 <goodger> I sometimes wonder
10:58:39 <yorick> I'm trying to ignore half of the converstation
10:58:53 <dihedral> yorick, i still thought you had put me on your ignore list
10:58:56 <yorick> ah, you too sometimes wonder :)
10:59:23 <goodger> I sometimes wonder whether some of the things I say are truly considered funny or just irritating
10:59:31 <yorick> ^^
10:59:46 <dihedral> goodger, if it's just 'some' of the things - you dont have to worry as much :-P
10:59:57 <dihedral> for some people...
11:00:02 * dihedral looks at yorick
11:00:09 <dihedral> ... it's "most of the things"
11:00:38 <dihedral> but in all fairness - i dont think he does it on purpose
11:01:03 <goodger> heh
11:01:24 <dihedral> (which does not necessarily make it any better :-P)
11:01:32 <goodger> well, not everything I say is designed to be funny
11:01:55 <dihedral> funny is in the eye of the "beer" holder
11:02:04 <goodger> otherwise, I would be a character in a very poorly written sitcom, such as Friends
11:02:27 * dihedral thinks of Mac Guyver
11:03:26 <goodger> never seen that. the fact that selma and patty bouvier like it is enough to warn me off it
11:03:29 <dihedral> "i have a scre, a ball point pen, tweezers, and could i please have that gum you are chewing?".....
11:03:31 * yorick discovered that the windows 7 snipping tool is in fact in vista too
11:03:34 <dihedral> *screw
11:03:42 <goodger> heh
11:04:09 <dihedral> ... boom
11:04:24 <goodger> XKCD on MacGuyver: "if I press this trigger, a small gunpowder charge will ignite, propelling a metal slug into the guard's head."
11:04:39 <dihedral> :-D
11:04:45 <goodger> randall munroe is absolutely mad
11:05:09 <dihedral> i don't think he's all to chuffed to be associated with that character
11:05:24 <goodger> but so long as he remains mad in the sense of XKCD, rather than in the sense of shooting people for fun, he can remain mad
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11:05:30 <dihedral> he had a bunch of interviews, where people gave him little things and asked him to build something
11:05:48 <goodger> heh--- randall munroe is the author of XKCD
11:06:07 * yorick wonders why there is a depot pool, as it contains only xy and town index, which could be stored in m2
11:06:09 <dihedral> well - i mean this other guy - whoever plays Guyver
11:06:22 <goodger> *nod*
11:06:27 <dihedral> yorick, you are off-topic :-P
11:07:04 <goodger> heh
11:07:11 <yorick> no idea why depots need a town index :p
11:07:31 <goodger> they are named after the nearest town, aren't they?
11:07:39 <yorick> ah
11:08:04 <goodger> Little Fundlingchuddworth Train Depot and such
11:08:17 <yorick> that explains why it needs a town index, but still not why it needs to loop through all depots when one clicks a window
11:08:24 <yorick> instead of 1. just storing the contents in m2
11:08:27 <goodger> (who wrote that town name generator? who?!)
11:08:37 <yorick> or 2.storing the depot index in m2
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11:57:31 <goodger> agh, my brain has stopped working
11:57:34 <goodger> I should have gone to bed
12:03:12 <roboboy> !logs
12:07:47 <yorick>
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12:27:38 <Eddi|zuHause> <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, might do too <- actually, i do have a loud voice... my friends are always complaining about that
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12:28:45 <goodger> it's just the texture of the language
12:30:24 <goodger> if you say "Kätzchen sind sehr weichen!" for instance, it _sounds_ angry
12:35:33 <roboboy> gnight
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12:43:54 <George> OTTD r 14775 finds and enables OpenGFX and enables it even if # graphicsset = opengfx in the cfg. even if I remove opengfx.obg. Only deliting opengfx*.grf returns OTTD to default graphics. graphicsset = orig_win simply does not work (error message generated - faild to select). Is it intended?
12:45:22 <yorick> what?
12:45:39 <George> To load OpenGFX by default
12:45:47 <yorick> not that I know of
12:45:51 <yorick> and it doesn't do that here
12:46:15 <George> I had no problem like that in r19692
12:46:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i never tried opengfx... all the previews given here are very dark and depressing
12:47:23 <yorick> no, just the ground sprites are a bit dark
12:48:20 <George> I did it a try, but did not want to use it by default. For the strange reason OpenTTD selects it as default graphics.
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12:48:49 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you are changing the wrong .cfg?
12:49:32 <George> it happens even no cfg is present
12:50:09 <yorick> not in your home dir?
12:50:53 <George> yorick: yes
12:51:17 <petern> graphicsset = orig_win simply does not work (error message generated - faild to select)
12:51:26 <petern> indicates that your original graphics couldn't be used for some reason
12:52:10 <George> when I remove OpenGFX it is used without any problem. What may be wrong?
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12:52:57 <Eddi|zuHause> start "openttd -d 3", and it tells you more about what it is doing (on the console)
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12:53:28 <Eddi|zuHause> can also be more specific "openttd -d grf=3" or "openttd -d misc=3"
12:56:59 <George> it writes a lot in the screen, how can I redirect it to a file?
12:58:54 <yorick> openttd -d 3 > file
12:59:47 <George> file is empty
13:00:06 <Yexo> use 2> instead of >
13:00:16 <Alberth> or >& to capture both
13:01:10 <Eddi|zuHause> not to confuse with &> ;)
13:02:10 <George> A reason for a bug found. There was a data folder in the my home directory and in the OTTD directory
13:02:33 <yorick> ^^
13:02:38 <George> if I remove a data folder from Ottd directory it works as intended
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14:09:13 <petern> pom te pom
14:09:26 <qball> paddy pom pom pet
14:10:17 <qball> petern: we should start a band!
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14:35:37 <Eddi|zuHause> <- there's something for petern ;)
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14:56:32 <petern> :)
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15:26:05 <petern> oh fuck
15:26:08 <petern> Eddi|zuHause: ...
15:26:25 <Eddi|zuHause> :p
15:26:40 <petern> remember that link with all the different stupid units?
15:26:52 <petern>
15:27:18 <petern> we can actually blame bjarni again...
15:27:30 <glx> as always
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15:46:52 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... the "progress bar" on the forums is completely useless...
15:46:59 <goodger> *nod*
15:49:39 <qball> what should it do?
15:50:18 <petern> there is one?
15:52:10 <goodger> it is an apparently ill-conceived method of gauging one's rank in the forum, by post
15:52:35 <petern> oh that
15:52:50 <petern> never look at it :)
15:59:08 <glx> and usually assholes talk more than useful people
15:59:41 <qball> that is why I my bar is completely white
15:59:49 <goodger> nice try, qball
16:01:55 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i meant when uploading afile
16:02:02 <Eddi|zuHause> as attachment
16:02:12 <goodger> oh
16:02:19 <goodger> depends how big the file is.
16:03:21 <Eddi|zuHause> it is just an animated gif, it has no indication when the upload might be finished nor how much of the file has actually been tranfered
16:03:22 <goodger> obviously a couple of hundred kilobytes of PNG isn't going to justify it, but people apparently use phpbb with larger files also
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16:10:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea what you are trying to say
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16:21:02 <TrueBrain> Happy New Year!!! :p
16:21:33 <Wolf01> new year? what new year?
16:21:44 * TrueBrain slaps wolf01
16:21:49 <TrueBrain> in what timezone do you live?
16:21:59 <Eddi|zuHause> another one?
16:22:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i already have enough years
16:22:30 <TrueBrain> poor Eddi|zuHause
16:22:43 <Wolf01> happy new year to you too, TrueBrain ;)
16:22:49 <TrueBrain> :) :) :) :) :)
16:23:34 <TrueBrain> so how are you all doing? :p
16:23:37 <TrueBrain> well, I am leaving ...
16:23:40 <TrueBrain> boring aint it?
16:23:46 <TrueBrain> enjoy this first day of 2009 :p
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16:24:59 <planetmaker> happy new year all here :)
16:25:35 <yorick> happy new year pm
16:33:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm gonna be sick...
16:38:10 <goodger> Eddi|zuHause: may I join you?
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16:45:40 <petern> hmm, so
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17:25:02 <yorick> is there any nice way to convert series of tiles into series of rectangles?
17:25:22 <Sacro> use a series of conversions
17:25:46 <yorick> aha, what conversions?
17:25:56 <petern> tiles to ractangles conversions, duh
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17:26:05 <petern> *rect :o
17:26:15 <yorick> how do they go?
17:26:25 <Sacro> from tiles
17:26:26 <petern> who knows
17:26:30 <Sacro> to rectangles
17:26:35 <petern> sacro knows :D
17:26:44 <yorick> how do I use them?
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17:34:40 <petern> glx, 14777 broke it
17:37:07 <petern> in vbs And will test all parts even in the first part is false, i suppose
17:38:57 <petern> CheckFile = FSO.FileExists(filename)
17:38:57 <petern> If CheckFile = True Then CheckFile = (FSO.GetFile(filename).DateLastModified >= FSO.GetFile(filename & ".in").DateLastModified)
17:39:01 <petern> that works for me
17:41:23 * Sacro will write you some c# :D
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17:43:44 <Sacro> "The 10-minute fireworks display began after midnight was sounded by the chimes of Big Ben. "
17:43:50 <Sacro> the BBC really need to proofread
17:44:25 <Sacro> oh hm, i suppose after 5 reads it makes sense
17:44:35 <Sacro> should have "that" in though for better readability
17:45:31 <petern> heh
17:46:49 <goodger> it's not meant to be "that"
17:47:07 <Sacro> meh, shower!
17:47:09 <goodger> it is meant to be "after midnight was sounded by the chimes of big ben, the 10-minute fireworks display began"
17:48:30 <thingwath> Ding-dong, then boom boom.
17:49:00 <goodger> or, in the original phrasing, "boom boom after ding-dong"
17:52:06 <Eddi|zuHause> that is why german has clear rules about separating minor clauses by commas
17:53:24 <yorick> any reason why the distant join station patch is still not in trunk?
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17:53:32 <goodger> English has them also. the BBC is apparently unaware of them
17:54:16 <Eddi|zuHause> "Das zehnminütige Feuerwerk begann, nachdem Mitternacht durch die Glocken von Big Ben eingeleutet wurde."
17:54:34 <goodger> *nod*
17:55:00 <goodger> putting the comma there in English would give a slightly different connotation due to the pause.
17:55:07 <goodger> but it would be a lot clearer
17:55:46 <Eddi|zuHause> commas in german do not denote pauses, they denote structure of sentences
17:56:04 <yorick> they do both in dutch
17:56:30 <yorick> but it wouldn't put a comma there
17:58:33 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you usually can make pauses at commas, but that is not because the comma suggests a pause, but the higher structure that demands the comma also suggests the pause
17:58:43 <Eddi|zuHause> it's an instance of correlation vs. causality
17:58:51 <yorick> ^^
17:59:05 <goodger> they denote structure _and_ pauses, independently, in english
17:59:09 <goodger> it's very confusing
17:59:46 <thingwath> they are confusing in every language
18:01:05 <Eddi|zuHause> in absolutely no case in my 12 years of german class, there was ever the talk of "you make a comma where you would make a pause when speaking"
18:01:58 <goodger> see, this is why I cannot read German
18:02:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not saying the rules about commas in german are easy. they are probably quite difficult. i said they are clear.
18:02:38 <thingwath> in czech, many people simply have a list of "comma-words" and put the comma in front of them
18:03:14 <thingwath> (no, it's not how it should be done)
18:03:21 <Eddi|zuHause> well, there are certain cases in german, where that would work, too.
18:03:26 <goodger> "Das zehnminutige <em>Feuerwerk</em> begann <br/> nachdem <em>Mitternacht</em> durch die <em>Glocken</em> von...."
18:03:44 <goodger> that's the sensation inside my head when I read your sentence
18:04:45 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it is a foreign language for you, after all ;)
18:04:58 <Eddi|zuHause> it's much different if you grew into it :)
18:05:28 <goodger> I'm sure
18:07:50 <petern> hmm
18:07:58 <petern> testing max_te combined and separate
18:08:03 <petern> big discrepancy
18:08:47 <petern> can be near double the tractive effort applied
18:09:55 <petern> not that you'd mix a GEC-A 'Eurostar' with an EE 'Type 3' normally...
18:10:12 <goodger> does anyone care to define tractive effort?
18:12:12 <petern> F = P / v
18:12:30 <glx> petern: of course MS can't do boolean math like everybody else
18:12:49 <petern> neither can the openbve author :D
18:13:06 <goodger> force equals power divided by velocity?
18:13:19 <petern> yeah
18:13:27 <goodger> hmm
18:13:36 <goodger> so where does TE come into that?
18:13:47 <goodger> is it a fancy name for force?
18:13:58 <goodger> I associated it with friction
18:14:10 <petern> it's not a fancy name, it's a description
18:14:28 <petern> like air drag is a measurable force
18:15:02 <petern> maximum TE is associated with friction, yes
18:15:13 <petern> hence F is limited when velocity is 0
18:15:48 <glx> btw some debug stuff was left
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18:18:27 <glx> fixed
18:18:28 <Eddi|zuHause> friction is "just" a force, too, or is my translation engine broken?
18:18:32 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: glx * r14780 /trunk/projects/determineversion.vbs: -Fix (r14777): of course VBS evaluates all parts of a boolean expression
18:19:24 <petern> Eddi|zuHause: yes it is
18:20:12 <Eddi|zuHause> max te is basically the static friction between the rails and the wheels
18:20:32 <Eddi|zuHause> the point just before the wheels would start sliding
18:21:00 <Swallow> Either that or the maximum force the engine can deliver, whichever is lower
18:21:12 <petern> Eddi|zuHause: that's a bit lower level than what we do
18:21:57 <Eddi|zuHause> well, yes, you have to chose the right level of abstraction ;)
18:22:17 <goodger> right
18:22:46 <goodger> so tractive effort is a synonym for the force the engine can deliver, considering its power
18:22:52 <goodger> that makes much more sense
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18:23:49 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, basically
18:24:15 <goodger> goodo
18:24:20 <Eddi|zuHause> there are two functions limiting that force
18:24:31 <Eddi|zuHause> at low speeds, the friction between wheels and rail
18:24:32 <goodger> so I see
18:24:44 <Eddi|zuHause> and at high speeds the power of the engine vs the air drag
18:25:15 <Eddi|zuHause> the DBSetXL readme has a rather good explanation of this
18:25:48 <petern> i've surmised that despite what hertogizanasdzxd says, the current model is not so bad, just the units are imperial...
18:26:05 <goodger> heh
18:26:20 <goodger> petern: the current model is perfect, so long as the actual physics is correct...
18:26:40 <petern> there are a few magic constants that can be tweaked
18:27:02 <goodger> but yeah, obscure units doubleplusungood
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18:27:07 <petern> hhaa
18:27:54 <petern> things like lbf * 4 = N is wrong, it should be nearer 4.44
18:28:18 <goodger> there is no need to do that operation
18:28:51 <goodger> the system should be designed so that it does not arse about converting between obscure and proper units
18:28:58 <Eddi|zuHause> *40/9?
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18:29:19 <De_Ghosty> anyone remember what's the max size window support?
18:29:28 <De_Ghosty> xp 32 /vista 64?
18:29:35 <petern> max size what?
18:30:20 <petern> goodger, well you could convert all internal units to SI
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18:30:29 <petern> (but velocity is problematic, as usual)
18:30:46 <goodger> how is it problematic?
18:30:50 <petern> decimals
18:31:04 <goodger> how are decimals problematic?
18:31:07 <petern> of course matching SI units to the in-game scale is pointless
18:31:16 <petern> we use integer maths :)
18:31:38 <Eddi|zuHause> can't use float maths because of network play
18:31:48 <Eddi|zuHause> different processors round differently, etc.
18:32:01 <goodger> I was about to refer to that as a silly presupposition
18:32:19 <goodger> luckily, I was stopped by Eddi|zuHause filling in for me
18:32:37 <goodger> so basically, nothing involving a decimal point is permissible?
18:33:08 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you can interpret integers as fixed point
18:33:18 <goodger> right
18:33:34 <goodger> I have a painful feeling that I've been through this conversation before
18:33:54 <goodger> why is doing fixed-point arithmetic problematic?
18:34:10 <Eddi|zuHause> celestar's gamebalance branch has a fixed point data type
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18:34:38 <goodger> right
18:34:43 <goodger> I feel this will not lead anywhere
18:34:49 <goodger> returning to the original point:
18:35:06 <goodger> why is using SI units internally problematic?
18:35:42 <Swallow> This pdf doc may be interesting:
18:35:46 <Eddi|zuHause> well, in the end, fixed point arithmetics is exactly the same as unit conversion
18:36:56 <goodger> ...but a lot less messy
18:37:14 <Eddi|zuHause> no, the conversion factor is as arbitrary as any other
18:37:22 <goodger> you can use fixed-point arithmetic in a class, rather than constantly reimplementing it
18:37:26 <Eddi|zuHause> in the end, the number has to fit in 32 or 64 bit
18:38:07 <petern> goodger: m/s is a very 'small' unit
18:38:14 <Eddi|zuHause> where an SI based system would use 10^x conversion factors, fixed point arithmetics would use 2^x
18:38:50 <goodger> oh, I see, that's essentially the complete opposite of what I understood by conversion factors
18:38:55 <petern> 1 m/s = 0.447 mph
18:39:09 <petern> err
18:39:12 <petern> no
18:39:16 * goodger raises eyebrow
18:39:17 <petern> 0.447 m/s = 1 mph
18:39:48 <petern> without using decimals, 2 mph granularity sucks
18:43:42 <petern> incidentally
18:44:40 <petern> m/s is almost but not quite the same as internal-tile-units/second
18:46:27 <goodger> I think it would help if this game were to scale
18:47:19 <Eddi|zuHause> it is to scale...
18:47:25 <Eddi|zuHause> at least 5 of them :p
18:47:37 <goodger> precisely :P
18:51:15 <petern> real life scale? :p
18:56:51 <goodger> would be nice
18:56:57 <petern> impossible in this game
18:57:17 <petern> impossible for any game
18:57:50 <goodger> houses are the same length as train carriages in this game, and major population centres are situated about 250m apart by my reckoning...
18:58:08 <goodger> it is easily possible to have correct scale in "any game"
18:58:24 <petern> but tedious
18:58:35 <petern> so it becomes not a game, but "merely" a simulation
18:59:09 <goodger> you're saying all the fun would suddenly evaporate if the game was to scale?
18:59:18 <petern> yes
18:59:24 <goodger> explain
18:59:29 <Eddi|zuHause> there is nothing wrong about having different scales
18:59:35 <Eddi|zuHause> they just have to be clearly defined
18:59:39 <Eddi|zuHause> which they aren't
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19:01:28 <petern> well, if, for example, you used m/s as your basic velocity unit
19:01:51 <petern> what do you represent s by?
19:02:16 <petern> obviously m can be represented graphically quite simply
19:02:30 <goodger> some user-configurable multiple of a second (variable time compression FTW)
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19:14:18 <petern> hehe, scaling to ttd's day means a tick stop (1/33th of a second) is 19 minutes
19:17:01 <Eddi|zuHause> you could approach it something like this: when a train running 160km/h can stop in 1km distance, how many seconds does that take? and go on from there: how many tiles and how many ticks should such a stop take?
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19:18:38 <petern> that's meaningless :)
19:20:40 <petern> hmm
19:21:32 <De_Ghosty> what revision was pbs implemented?
19:28:25 <petern> several
19:30:00 <yorick> 13926 was the first
19:30:03 <De_Ghosty> which one was final
19:30:05 <yorick> it took 42
19:30:18 <De_Ghosty> kk thx
19:30:48 <yorick> and a whole lot of fixes after that
19:31:09 <yorick> try 13976
19:31:32 <petern> hmm, calculating it for 1 day = 1 game year seems to work reasonably well
19:31:41 <petern> wasn't that the set up for that timetable patch?
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19:45:31 <petern> hmm, no it doesn't, i did the maths wrong :)
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19:54:10 <petern> how long does a eurostar take to get up to speed?
19:54:29 <Sacro> up or downhill?
19:54:38 <petern> flat
19:54:54 <thingwath> free fall :o)
19:54:56 <Sacro> Performance Metrics: 16 kW/tonne / 0.98 tonnes/seat / 15.90 kW/seat
19:55:23 <petern> Sacro, for a long or short train?
19:55:27 <Sacro> petern: yes
19:55:30 <petern> wrong
19:55:48 <petern> they both have 4 powered cars, just less unpowered
19:55:48 <Sacro>
19:56:11 <petern> therefore kW/tonne varies
19:56:15 <Sacro> hmm
19:56:23 <Sacro> that's probably quoted unformatted
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19:59:06 <petern> "Eurostar's power to weight ratio is still the worst in the TGV family." heh
20:03:13 <petern> i guess they don't use the third rail pick up anymore...
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20:08:57 <petern> omnomnom
20:09:00 <petern> brandy cream :D
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20:14:09 <petern> Converting drag to horsepower using the "familiar" 1 HP = 550 ft-#/sec and the "familiar" 60 mph = 88ft/sec : 100 mph is 147 ft/sec
20:14:12 <petern> WHY
20:15:32 <qball> what? feet/sec
20:18:21 <Prof_Frink> petern: openttd should use fff.
20:18:52 <Prof_Frink> Much better than this SI nonsense.
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20:24:44 <valhallasw> Prof_Frink: furlongs! <3
20:27:07 <Prof_Frink> Quite.
20:27:17 <Prof_Frink> And what are the other two?
20:27:52 <petern> firkin and fortnight
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20:33:40 <Eddi|zuHause> how is it possible that knight rider gets worse every episode?
20:33:52 <glx> old or new?
20:33:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean it began at an incredibly low level already...
20:33:56 <Eddi|zuHause> new
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21:22:49 <petern> ahh
21:23:01 <petern> i think i got air drag sorted out
21:23:28 <petern> it was an order of magnitude too low
21:24:24 <petern> class 43 tops out at 145 mph which is not far off
21:24:54 <glx> that's a silly speed unit ;)
21:24:59 <petern> yup
21:25:43 <petern> 64 m/s
21:26:13 <petern> the current drag_coefficient values are totally wrong, of course
21:27:00 <petern> i've taken some short cuts with magic conversion values which lessens the number of conversions needed
21:27:01 <goodger> of course, the 43's top speed is the top speed attainable on the decaying tracks that go from Paddington to Reading
21:27:21 <goodger> on other tracks it will probably be different
21:28:38 <Eddi|zuHause> the ICE3 can't even reach its top speed on brand new tracks
21:29:04 <petern> according to everyone's favourite 100% reliable source the absolute max speed is 148mph
21:29:35 <petern> could be tweaked by adjusting the drag coefficient
21:29:51 <goodger> are you sure that 3mph absolutely needs to be shaved off?
21:29:55 <petern> nope
21:30:01 <petern> seeing as it's limited to 125 anyway
21:30:11 <goodger> well then
21:30:29 <petern> i tested with the speed limit removed as the max reachable speed gives a better indication of whether the values are correctish
21:32:01 <petern> 145 is a much better value than 225
21:32:29 <goodger> *nod*
21:33:28 <Eddi|zuHause> now... a 500t coal train dragged by an E94 up a 3% slope?
21:33:50 <goodger> 40mph
21:34:15 <petern> god i'm sad
21:34:22 <petern> i love using spreadsheets to model these things ;)
21:34:23 <goodger> *nod*
21:34:57 <petern> heh, a eurostar drops below its max_te at 100mph
21:35:01 <petern> that's... fast
21:35:23 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what? slightly more than 60km/h?
21:35:33 <petern> er, slightly year
21:35:37 <petern> 160km/h
21:36:45 * goodger could make an ironic joke about Eddi|zuHause's knowledge of the imperial system being akin to goodger's knowledge of the long scale at this time, but he is too tired
21:37:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i was referring to the 40mph
21:37:30 <goodger> ah
21:37:40 <goodger> in that case, yes, about 65-ish
21:37:42 <Eddi|zuHause> 40*1.6, but i can't calculate anymore
21:37:52 <goodger> multiply by 1.6
21:38:24 <goodger> 64.37376 kph
21:38:41 <goodger> hurrah for google's intimate familiarity with significant figures
21:39:40 <Eddi|zuHause> " Also ich hab ja mal in den 70er Jahren als Stellwerker in Karl-Marx-Stadt/Siegmar gewerkelt, da waren gerade die ersten 250er im Probebetrieb z. B. mit den "Wismut-Zügen" aus Pirna nach Seelingstädt. Grenzlast 2060 t mit 2 x 242, auf dem Tharandter Berg die Hälfte! Die 250 brachte außer auf besagter Rampe den Zug dann allein bis Werdau, die Regellasten wurden dann aber auf 1500 t begrenzt (zum Vergleich: "Eisenschwein" E 94/254 -
21:39:41 <Eddi|zuHause> 1400 t; Ludmilla 132 - 1300 t, 242 solo 1030 t). Auf der Thrandter Steigung war die E 94 mit 600 t, die E 42 mit 515 t dabei!"
21:40:12 <Prof_Frink> Quite.
21:40:16 <goodger> indeed
21:40:42 <petern> google's unit understanding is great stuff
21:40:59 <petern> hmm, of course, ICE 3 has less power than a eurostar
21:40:59 <goodger> I was just thinking, "what I'd really like now is for Eddi|zuHause to paste some German esoterica into the channel"
21:41:00 <Eddi|zuHause> figures of different engines and their pulled trains on the "Thrandter Steige"
21:41:08 <goodger> petern: it is. but still, significant figures are good
21:41:42 <Eddi|zuHause> where the regular track goes up to 2.5%, and some sections up to 3%
21:42:08 <Eddi|zuHause> on the main track, the E 94 drags 1400t, and on the steep part 600t
21:42:32 <goodger> Eddi|zuHause: do you mean "hauls"? "drag" has a specific meaning in mechanics
21:42:39 <Eddi|zuHause> yees
21:42:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean "hauls"
21:42:49 <goodger> righto
21:42:52 <petern> according to my maths, the ICE3 tops out at 330km/h
21:42:56 <Eddi|zuHause> you know what Mark Twain said about "Zug" :p
21:43:04 <goodger> nope
21:43:11 <petern> hm
21:43:13 <petern> bit off
21:43:18 <Prof_Frink> Move Every Zug?
21:43:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Prof_Frink: not quite :p
21:43:38 <goodger> nope
21:44:22 <Eddi|zuHause> <- search for "zug"
21:45:17 <Eddi|zuHause> "Zug means Pull, Tug, Draught, Procession, March, Progress, Flight, Direction, Expedition, Train, Caravan, Passage, Stroke, Touch, Line, Flourish, Trait of Character, Feature, Lineament, Chess-move, Organ-stop, Team, Whiff, Bias, Drawer, Propensity, Inhalation, Disposition: but that thing which it does not mean -- when all its legitimate pennants have been hung on, has not been discovered yet."
21:45:35 <petern> Eddi|zuHause, what's the pertinent specs for the E94?
21:45:40 <petern> power/mass/maxte
21:45:45 <goodger> heh
21:46:18 <petern> E 94 does not seem very searchable
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21:47:34 <Eddi|zuHause> the DBSet's readme says 4400hp and 393kN
21:47:56 <Eddi|zuHause> it seems to miss the mass
21:48:02 <Rubidium> as if the DBset's stats are the real stats...
21:49:46 <petern> allegedly
21:49:55 <petern> he always made out it was realistic
21:50:08 <petern> apart from that bug in ttdpatch that got fixed...
21:50:43 <Rubidium> what about the wrong power/TE for the ICE3 in DBset?
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21:51:38 <Eddi|zuHause> you'll have to discuss that with The Man himself, i am just quoting what it says in the readme
21:51:42 <petern> as i said
21:51:44 <petern> apart from that bug in ttdpatch that got fixed...
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21:52:42 <Eddi|zuHause> <- anyway, that's the first google result, it has stats on the right side
21:52:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Mass: 118,7t
21:53:17 <petern> yeah
21:53:17 <Eddi|zuHause> long range power: 3000kW
21:53:24 <Eddi|zuHause> short range power: 3300kW
21:53:33 <Eddi|zuHause> tractive effort: 363kN
21:53:38 <petern> that's about right
21:53:50 <petern> (in dbsetxl)
21:53:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i mistyped that number earlier
21:54:03 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: I'm not going to explicitly tell him bugs in his stuff when he can't be bothered to tell what bugs he found in OpenTTD's NewGRF implementation
21:54:10 <petern> heh, it would do 237 km/h allegedly
21:54:21 <petern> with 500t on flat
21:54:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: yeah, i had that kind of discussion with him lately, too.
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21:54:41 <petern> Rubidium, well, mixing sets is a bug....
21:54:44 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: I know
21:55:04 <petern> right... now to emulate a 3% slope...
21:55:27 <Eddi|zuHause> petern: i think for flat land the design was to pull 2000t
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21:56:47 <petern> uh huh
21:57:51 <petern> 3% slope, 500t, 56 km/h
21:57:59 <petern> or there abouts
21:58:15 <petern> more like 60km/h
21:58:46 <petern> 2000t won't move up 3%
21:59:19 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that sounds about right
22:01:05 <petern> so i just need to document these magic numbers...
22:01:31 <petern> like the magic 2669
22:01:39 <yorick> "loading game failed, (undefined string)"
22:01:48 <petern> power * 2669 / speed, obvious, eh?
22:02:46 <Rubidium> *3.6/1.6?
22:03:05 <Rubidium> and that times 100 and then divided by 9.81 or so?
22:03:10 <petern> no :)
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22:05:42 <canhoto> Hi there guys, mind if I ask a question?
22:06:03 <Rubidium> you already did...
22:06:30 <canhoto> ok, I'll rephrase to a second question then
22:08:05 <canhoto> I was just wondering if there's something wrong with the svn server since I've been trying to get the source code for some time and it's kind of slow
22:09:10 <Rubidium> which protocol do you use? http:// or svn:// ?
22:09:16 <petern> it's (power * 746) / (speed / 1.6 * 2.23), or something
22:09:41 <canhoto> svn
22:09:45 <Eddi|zuHause> what's 2.23 there?
22:09:59 <petern> mph to m/s
22:10:14 <petern> hmm
22:10:18 <petern> have i done it wrong again? :(
22:10:52 <Rubidium> canhoto: there seems to be nothing wrong there
22:11:04 <Rubidium> canhoto: what are you checking out exactly (full url)?
22:11:05 <canhoto> strange...
22:11:19 <canhoto> probably my router showing his age or something
22:11:27 <petern> should be / 2.23
22:11:37 <petern> the constant i have is right
22:12:29 <petern> but anyway, that's one conversion multiplication instead of 3...
22:12:31 <canhoto>
22:12:39 <canhoto> just tried with http and worked like a charm
22:13:06 <petern> hmm, instead of 5, in fact
22:13:25 <Rubidium> svn should really be faster and it isn't slow for me
22:13:57 <canhoto> it's probably my router or my firewall, thanks anyway
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22:21:00 <Eddi|zuHause> "Im BAHN-REPORT 1/2005 steht ein Artikel über den Lok-Wechsel auf der Rübelandbahn (Harz). Die bisher eingesetzten DR-Loks 251/171 hatten bergwärts bei 63 %o eine Höchstlast von 300 t !. (Zum Glück waren die Züge nur talswärts beladen.)"
22:21:32 <Eddi|zuHause> some day i need to model that railway ;)
22:21:50 <petern> heh
22:21:52 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14781 /trunk/ (52 files in 4 dirs):
22:21:52 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: -Change: someone changed _cur_year; so update it in a few hardcoded places... happy new year!
22:21:52 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: -Fix (r11790): a few instances were forgotten.
22:22:05 <petern> hm
22:22:15 <petern> yeah, 3% slopes don't work so well
22:22:24 <petern> cos they're too short
22:23:07 <Eddi|zuHause> like i suggested earlier, as long as one part of the train is on a slope, it should take that slope for the entire train
22:23:19 <Eddi|zuHause> not some weird kind of average value
22:23:39 <petern> this 500t BR 194 tops out at 75 km/h
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22:23:52 <petern> but takes a long slope with no flats to get it all on 3%
22:24:03 <Eddi|zuHause> the slope grade should not be dependent on train length
22:24:51 <petern> it's that stupid scale thing again
22:25:21 <Eddi|zuHause> the DBSet wagons have too little load, i think
22:25:43 <petern> i used goods wagosn with 80 crates
22:25:47 <petern> 50t per wagon
22:25:49 <petern> hmm
22:25:53 <petern> freight weight!
22:26:19 <Eddi|zuHause> someone said 1 crate equals half a ton
22:26:24 <petern> yes
22:26:34 <petern> 40t + the wagon weight
22:26:59 <petern> okay, 1900t train
22:27:03 <petern> it stalls
22:27:24 <petern> hah! 357kN vs 571kN
22:27:38 <Eddi|zuHause> someone in this forum i am reading said 15 4-axle hopper wagons should have 1200-1300t
22:28:06 <petern> well
22:28:08 <petern> ships are worse ;)
22:28:35 <petern> let's try a run up
22:28:49 <petern> hehe
22:28:51 <petern> no chance
22:28:56 <petern> and that was without the speed limiter
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22:35:09 <petern> was that 300t up 6.3%?
22:35:33 <Eddi|zuHause> no, that was a BR 251 (not in the set)
22:35:43 <petern> hmm
22:36:20 <Eddi|zuHause> those were engines specifically designed for that route (Rübelandbahn)
22:36:26 <petern> hm
22:36:50 <petern> your E94 could do that at 57km/h
22:37:05 <petern> allegedly
22:39:57 <Eddi|zuHause> the actual problem with that route was, that the track was electrified due to its steepness, but it was isolated from the rest of the electric network, so they couldn't take the 15kV / 16 2/3Hz, but instead took 25kV / 50Hz from the local power station
22:40:48 <petern> too many commas! :o
22:41:11 <petern> so it had more power...
22:41:15 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, people keep telling me that my sentences get too long ;)
22:41:43 <Eddi|zuHause> they could not reuse any of the regular engines anyway, so they designed completely new ones
22:43:07 <Eddi|zuHause> they are not much stronger than the E 94. BR 251: 3300kW, 373kN
22:44:05 <Eddi|zuHause> mass: 124t
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22:46:59 <Eddi|zuHause> <- they are not that beautiful, though
22:56:39 <Rubidium> it doesn't need to be beautiful to be effective
22:57:09 * Rubidium dislikes the looks of the newer Shinkansens, but they are more silent and faster
22:57:23 <Rubidium> and less noisy for the neighbourhood
22:58:06 <Eddi|zuHause> a freight engine for steep slopes is not exactly comparable to a super high speed train :p
22:58:55 <Eddi|zuHause> have i mentioned this year already that i needed diagonal bridges?
22:59:47 <Rubidium> so code them?
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23:01:57 <Rubidium>,%2025th%20Mar%202395.png <- could use diagonal bridges too
23:03:27 <Rubidium> and signalled bridges and tunnels
23:04:36 <Rubidium> still it's more fun without as that makes the optimisation process more fun ;)
23:06:46 <petern> Sacro! Sacro!
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23:33:32 <Eddi|zuHause> that looks like there was some serious restructuring going on since the last screenshot i saw (assuming that's still the same game)
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23:36:40 <Eddi|zuHause> why has that picture so odd dimensions? 8192x4096 minus one row of void tiles?
23:37:18 <Rubidium> if the last screenshot was after the 13th of July 2007 then it's likely the same game
23:37:59 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: looks like it yes
23:38:16 <Rubidium> 64 in X and 32 in Y sounds quite familiar
23:39:10 <petern> sigh, openbve developer based their decision to use & version && on a benchmark program
23:39:14 <petern> *versus
23:39:24 <petern> stated that & was faster on dual core cpus
23:39:54 <petern> that code needs tronification :)
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23:40:32 <petern> Rubidium: is that one of your 'busier than openttdcoop' games?
23:41:09 <Eddi|zuHause> the one that you complained about being less efficient when using YAPP
23:41:10 <Sacro> petern: ?
23:42:09 <Rubidium> well... the X times more transported cargo over 4 quarters than Pile Final game, where X is nearing 2 at the moment
23:42:47 <Sacro> petern: you rang m'lady
23:44:16 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: the two bridges east of Treham South (south end of longest aqueduct) are to force YAPP to choose the platforms that are further away
23:44:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i won't ever do this coop style gameplay
23:45:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: shouldn't you instead increase the blocked platform penalty?
23:45:29 <Rubidium> well... that means changing other penalties too
23:45:41 <Rubidium> which makes YAPP wait more at other junctions
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