IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-12-21
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00:00:02 <George> Belugas wrote that house ID is extended byte, and I could use it in cation 0
00:00:02 <George> 1323 * 50 00 07 12 01 FF B1 00
00:00:02 <George> but when I try to define its' graphics with action 3, I get a problem.
00:00:02 <George> //!!Warning (142): <num-cid> must be 0 for this feature.
00:00:02 <George> //!!Fatal Error (42): Length does not match n-id and num-cid of 01 and B1. (Expected 538 bytes)
00:00:04 <George> 1362 * 9 03 07 01 FF B1 00 00 FE 00
00:00:04 <George> What am I doing wrong?
00:01:14 <petern> nforenum won't understand it
00:05:42 <George> I'd like to see Dale on-line :S
00:10:43 <George> I've assembled it without NFORenum and it does not work. House does not get new graphics.
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01:03:37 <a2k> is there any way to disable version check in network play?
01:04:00 <Vikthor> Why would you want to do so?
01:04:48 <Vikthor> The game will desync very fast if you have different versions
01:05:26 <a2k> i want to play on my home server using my internet tablet. but openttd for maemo is only 0.6.0 version :(
01:05:49 <Vikthor> just install 0.6.0 on your server
01:06:41 <a2k> i also want to play on this server with my friends who use 0.6.3
01:08:16 <Vikthor> you can install openttd into different directories and it should work
01:09:12 <a2k> i'll need to manualy compile it to do that
01:09:29 <Eddi|zuHause> then you will have to do that
01:10:37 <Vikthor> hmm 2 am here, I wish you good night
01:10:57 <a2k> so it can be much better to compile 0.6.3 for maemo
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02:32:33 <Feletacion> Asians, Whites, Amerindians, and Mestizos are descended from extraterrestrials who mixed with anthropoids and Neanderthals. Niggggers really did solely evolve from just MONKEYS. Join us today at Chimpout.com! No matter what race you are, as long as you aren't a nigiigger. http://www.chimpout.com/forum/index.php
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02:35:40 <Dr_Link> On a server, if connecting as an OpenTTD client, how do I set autoclean_companies to off using rcon?
02:35:50 <Dr_Link> rcon <password> autoclean_companies off does not seem to work...
02:36:36 *** glx sets mode: +b *!~Feletacio@*.160.239.17.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx
02:36:52 <Dr_Link> I tried setting it to zero.
02:36:55 *** Feletacion was kicked by glx (Feletacion)
02:37:04 <Dr_Link> rcon <password> autoclean_companies 0
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02:37:16 <Dr_Link> and it said autoclean_companies is currently set to: on
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02:40:37 <a2k> maybe there is some dependency on other variable
02:48:21 <glx> Dr_Link: try rcon <password> "autoclean_companies 0"
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03:47:38 <Dr_Link> How do you completely remove a town in the scenerio editor?
03:49:19 <benjamingoodger> I don't think you can delete the actual town. you should instead remove its central road tile and leave it be...
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06:09:48 <Rubidium> Dr_Link: tried clicking on the town name?
06:15:08 <George> Rubidium: Should action 3 support extended byte house ID (FF 00 - FF 01)? Looks like it does not work.
06:19:12 <Rubidium> my interpretation of the specs says that extended bytes are only used for vehicles (rest uses plain bytes)
06:23:06 <Rubidium> although it should be possible to make it support extended bytes eventually
06:34:07 <Rubidium> looks like the action 3 doesn't read an extended byte
06:34:57 <Rubidium> though I'm not sure whether just making it an extended byte doesn't break existing newgrfs (that assume it's a byte)
06:37:26 <Rubidium> changing that would possibly require a newgrf version bump, but I'm far from certain
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10:50:30 <frosch123> you will shortly run out of smilies
10:53:47 <petern> then you'll be using frownies
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14:03:45 <George> Belugas: are you here?
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14:19:37 <Rubidium> George: that's pretty unlikely
14:20:21 <George> What is the right way to test if the user is on-line?
14:20:44 <frosch123> phone wolfgang schäuble
14:21:25 *** Mortal is now known as Guest567
14:21:33 <frosch123> never mind - german politics :)
14:21:56 <George> Sorry, did not understand the joke
14:22:06 <Rubidium> George: there's no way to determine a user is on-line
14:22:14 <glx> George: Belugas is usually away during week ends
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14:23:37 <George> Rubidium: for normal users they are displayed in grey when they are away, but mods are always red, so I can't see if a mod is away or not. And bulugas is a mod
14:24:04 <frosch123> George: he is minister of interior and known for designing laws to spy private lives and internet accesses, which are usually canceled later by constitutional court
14:24:46 <Eddi|zuHause> talking about mister S.?
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14:28:13 <frosch123> do you want to hide your presence :p
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14:32:46 <George> frosch123: No, I do not.
14:42:13 <petern> the term is op, not mod
14:42:30 <petern> and ops can certainly be shown as away. clearly you client leaves things to be desired...
14:43:02 <dihedral> haha frosch123 - i like that one ;-)
14:43:59 <dihedral> George, get a decent client :-P
14:44:23 <dihedral> else you can see in the /whois result if a client is set to away or not
14:44:44 <glx> dihedral: his client shows it correctly
14:44:57 <glx> just most away users don't set away mode
14:45:26 <George> dihedral: I found, my client distplayes it correctly, simply belugas does not set his away status
14:45:39 <dihedral> you are very fast George - must say
14:46:22 <George> English is not my native :S
14:48:27 <yorick> dihedral: we're currently running the gaming day :)
14:48:57 <dihedral> yes - i saw on the server list - does not look like it's a full event :-P
14:50:13 <dihedral> what issues did you have (wrt the servername)
14:50:41 <yorick> desync on join yesterday
14:57:06 <yorick> and again, it seems to be a cargodest bug
14:57:58 <Eddi|zuHause> well, report it...
14:58:13 <yorick> but can't reproduce it
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15:29:29 <DorpsGek> dihedral: Brianetta was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 4 days, 15 hours, 55 minutes, and 5 seconds ago: <Brianetta> It's making me snigger now
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17:30:29 <Dr_Link> How do people have their servers to where if someone sends a chat message out beginning with a ! it responds to it as a "command"?
17:38:56 *** George3 is now known as George
17:40:15 <frosch123> do you mean autopilot ?
17:46:17 <yorick> Dr_Link: patched server/autopilot/other bot
17:46:47 <Dr_Link> I know of one server that kicks you if you terraform more than x amount of tiles at a time.
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17:49:45 <lewymati> i have just installed openttd
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17:55:18 <svippy> How often does the Max loan increase?
17:55:47 <Rubidium> you want the correct answer or the lame answer?
17:56:57 <Eddi|zuHause2> every time the inflation of the initial loan increases by the minimum loan step
17:59:03 <Rubidium> svippy: floor(((initial_interest / 100 + 1)^(2050-1920)*initial_loan - initial_loan) / 50000)
17:59:33 <Rubidium> where initial_interest is 2, 3 or 4
18:00:04 <Rubidium> s/initial_loan/max_loan/
18:00:24 <Rubidium> and max_loan between 50000 and 500000 (both inclusive) in intervals of 50000
18:01:13 <Rubidium> the lame answer would've been: during the first 170 years
18:02:29 <petern> as the question was how often...
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18:13:39 <Rubidium> so between about 25 and 8000 times
18:14:19 <Rubidium> frosch123: in which case?
18:14:26 <Eddi|zuHause> inflation off :p
18:15:05 <Rubidium> then it increase 1 from 0 ;)
18:15:12 <Rubidium> then it increase once from 0 ;)
18:16:00 <Eddi|zuHause> err... but not during times where the user can interact
18:27:17 <dihedral> hehe - updated my move clients patch
18:31:08 <svippy> Rubidium: Why can't trains gain momentum when they are going downhill?
18:31:46 <Rubidium> cause you disable realistic acceleration?
18:31:54 <Eddi|zuHause> because the physics engine sucks
18:32:07 <svippy> I mean, why can't it go faster than its max speed down hills?
18:32:13 <mrfrenzy> there is a max speed, if that is rached they will break
18:32:21 <Eddi|zuHause> because the max speed is where the engine falls apart
18:32:23 <mrfrenzy> otherwise bearings would overheat and they would derail
18:32:36 <svippy> Well, it should be a feature with a risk combined with it.
18:32:38 <Aali> there was a patch a while back that completely removed the concept of max speeds
18:32:51 <Rubidium> svippy: they actually get a small speed advantage when going down hill
18:32:59 <Eddi|zuHause> and it was rejected, because it both hurts realism and gameplay
18:33:38 <mrfrenzy> that would be something, trains with infinite speed
18:33:54 <Eddi|zuHause> there are more things that limit train speed than weight and power
18:34:00 <Aali> it was fun to toy around with, but for real games? wouldn't want that
18:34:59 <Aali> you could, in theory, make a long line of slow steamers break the sound barrier
18:36:01 <svippy> Why would you play a game where there is no limits? Isn't the entire point of a game, the limitations?
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19:12:17 <petern> trains can't go faster downhill because the brakes are activated to prevent it! :D
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20:58:28 <benjamingoodger> the pinnacle of sophistication in this evening's #openttd has been reached...
20:58:49 <Sionide> yes, it's all down-hill from here on in
20:59:16 <TrueBrain> yeah, Ruudjah has that effect
20:59:42 <TrueBrain> just kidding Ruudjah :)
20:59:51 <Ruudjah> I will give it some more sphistication
21:00:12 <Ruudjah> by having a discussion about the competition mechanics in openttd
21:00:31 <TrueBrain> there is none, so that is a short conversation :)
21:00:31 <Ruudjah> I am Energetic at Kurt's Hard goal
21:00:45 <Sionide> is there anything really juicy in the latest nightly builds i should check out?
21:00:51 <Ruudjah> I just started a new topic on the problems forum
21:00:57 <Sionide> haven't updated my svn for aaaages..
21:01:11 <Ruudjah> I am unable to code/write patches for openttd
21:01:21 <Sionide> r12993 by the looks of it :s
21:01:28 <Ruudjah> and I want, in the name of Kurts community, to have a few things fixed in the openttd client
21:02:05 <Ruudjah> So I am doing everything in my abilities to make this happen....
21:02:35 *** Ruudjah is now known as Ruudjah|energeti
21:02:38 *** Ruudjah|energeti is now known as Ruudjah|energetic
21:03:54 <Ruudjah|energetic> A lot of people are limited/offended by the way competition is handled in openttd. Renewing trains to get the most rssource is the most important thing
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21:06:27 <Ruudjah|energetic> most games end up in boring train engine replacement, which kills the gameplay in openttd. Which I (and a whole lot of other players) think is a bad thing...
21:07:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i rarely replace engines... wagonspeedlimits makes that much less important...
21:07:47 <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't play "competitively" either
21:07:59 <Eddi|zuHause> and currently, i don't play at all
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21:12:16 <Eddi|zuHause> someone still did not learn the joys of the <tab> key?
21:12:36 <SmatZ> it's more "personal" to type the nick in hand ;)
21:13:15 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah... right... sure...
21:13:24 <Ruudjah|energetic> Nite_owl==Nite?
21:13:31 <Eddi|zuHause> you're in IRC because it's so personal
21:15:17 <Nite_Owl> Nite vs. Night is a long story
21:15:37 <Ruudjah|energetic> whats the short version?
21:15:52 <Nite_Owl> Oops - nick infringement
21:16:47 <Nite_Owl> Not a problem - just my sad attempts at humor
21:16:47 <Nite> anyone into station rating debate here?
21:17:19 <Ruudjah|energetic> yes, i'm into it ;)
21:18:38 <Nite> anyone seemingly intrested in it?
21:18:55 <Nite> (no not that imn connected;) )
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21:20:30 <Ruudjah|energetic> i tried at clanmega
21:20:30 <Nite> wow so much chat here i cant folow reading ...
21:20:47 <Ruudjah|energetic> but my computer almost continuously stuttered
21:20:55 <Ruudjah|energetic> game was umplayable
21:21:15 <Ruudjah|energetic> the gaming day organizer clan
21:21:45 <Nite> in what form do you "try there" ?
21:22:00 <Ruudjah|energetic> in the form of
21:22:25 <Ruudjah|energetic> logging in with a core2duo 3GB ram SSD pc with 100Mbit internet connection straight on AMSIX
21:22:45 <Nite> i also dont know what amsix is
21:22:57 <Ruudjah|energetic> biggest internet hub in the world
21:23:01 <Rubidium> ix = internet exchange and ams is the location
21:23:23 <Nite> and why couldnt your pc handle it?
21:23:36 <Ruudjah|energetic> good questoin
21:23:39 <Nite> i dont get the system at all
21:23:52 <Ruudjah|energetic> what system
21:24:15 <Rubidium> performance depends on the os, video card driver and some settings
21:24:35 <Rubidium> disabling full detail, animation and not using 32 bpp should result in quite a speedup
21:24:39 <Nite> which game you tried to play there?
21:24:41 <Rubidium> and so does not zooming out
21:24:59 <SmatZ> + making trees (and buildings) invisible
21:25:42 <Nite> i dont get at all how this gameday thing works .. wbsite?
21:26:20 <Ruudjah|energetic> clanmega.warlink.eu
21:27:16 <Nite> ok its an ottdserver ...
21:27:28 <Nite> how could i possibly not thinkof this
21:27:37 <Ruudjah|energetic> interesting thing, also for kurt, is the 11 player limit is removed
21:28:18 <Ruudjah|energetic> it'd be cool to have, say, 16 companies at 512x512 maps
21:28:46 <planetmaker> May OpenTTD crash, if it cannot find grfs which are required by a savegame?
21:29:01 <planetmaker> Or should it say so and not load it?
21:29:02 <glx> planetmaker: it should just fail to load
21:29:18 <planetmaker> glx: then I have a new bug report for you at flyspray :)
21:29:32 <SmatZ> planetmaker: it may crash :(
21:29:38 <Rubidium> planetmaker: glx is talking about grfs, you specifically meant newgrfs
21:29:42 <Ruudjah|energetic> Does 0.6.3 standard trunk support servers with >11 players?
21:30:04 <planetmaker> Then you can delete that flyspray entry, I guess.
21:30:22 <planetmaker> And we should always say which version of the grfpack is required for a savegame...
21:31:35 <Nite> i search for the clanmega newgrfs as well - package?
21:31:51 <Ruudjah|energetic> just read the forum
21:31:56 <Ruudjah|energetic> of clanmega
21:32:12 <Ruudjah|energetic> it is quite hard to get it setup all
21:32:19 <Ruudjah|energetic> patch/grf/etc
21:37:11 <planetmaker> Ruudjah|energetic: so... ? You say it's difficult to provide high quality service? Yes, sure...
21:38:52 <Rubidium> ofcourse... the easier way to set up many client games without patches is providing a proper way to increase the number of clients instead of arbitrarily increasing some constant, that'll just be a) not enough and b) memory for everyone not playing many client games
21:40:45 <Ruudjah|energetic> planetmaker, I am not sure what you mean?
21:42:13 <planetmaker> Ruudjah|energetic: I'm not sure what you're dis-satisfied with... too few clients per game? Too few companies? Difficulties to patch the game to provide that? ... Any, some or all of those?
21:44:05 <yorick> Nite: it's just openttdcoop grfs
21:44:53 <Ruudjah|energetic> no, just thining about the possibility to have more clients in games
21:45:20 <Ruudjah|energetic> I am dissatisified by nothing
21:46:34 <Ruudjah|energetic> Just looking for ways to make it more interesting/more phun/etc
21:46:51 <Ruudjah|energetic> I do however recognize the are some limitations into heavy competition
21:47:33 <Nite> is the gameday runing now? i read it was a fail ...
21:47:46 <Ruudjah|energetic> and finding ways to remove those limitations
21:47:52 <Ruudjah|energetic> it says retry now
21:48:12 <Ruudjah|energetic> "(new try)"
21:50:14 <Nite> sry but clanmega website is realy cryptic about the so caleld patch
21:50:58 <Nite> where to dl the patch end where to put it ???
21:51:39 <Nite> im sure ottd603 dont recognized the patch in my documents
21:52:29 <Ruudjah|energetic> download, unpack
21:52:40 <Ruudjah|energetic> mvoe transport tycoon files to data folder
21:52:49 <Ruudjah|energetic> move grf files to data folder
21:53:26 <Nite> i ahve the grfs and ottd 603 running
21:54:02 <Nite> and to what folder does it haev to go?
21:55:09 <Nite> i also dont have a clue what the "sample cat" is
21:55:36 <Nite> and i never needed eny ottd disk to play since ages
21:55:58 <Nite> i guess most palyers dont posses sthis disc.
21:56:00 <yorick> nite: patch is at tt-forums :)
21:59:19 <Nite> "the patch that yorick posted " is this the filename ? *LOL*
21:59:36 <Ruudjah|energetic> have you been to clanmega.warlink.eu?
21:59:57 <Ruudjah|energetic> but, Nite, I share your frustrations about it
22:00:06 <Ruudjah|energetic> I costed me 45 minutes to get in running too
22:00:45 <Nite> i guess it must be the "openttd-custom-r14689-megaGD1-MINGW.zip"
22:03:08 <Nite> also i know how to unzip files since the 80's
22:03:21 <Nite> but where to put it actually?
22:03:51 <Eddi|zuHause> wherever your openttd.exe is
22:04:31 <yorick> I'd put it somewhere else
22:04:48 <Nite> guess you could have made that clear in a singel sentence
22:05:29 <Nite> download *filename* unzip and put it in *foldername*
22:06:20 <Nite> "somewhere else" so ottd scans your whole pc for the patch file right?
22:06:29 <Nite> why does this seem so strange to me
22:06:32 <Nite_Owl> Make a copy of your entire OpenTTD folder and then overwrite the .exe into the copy and run it from there
22:07:04 <Nite> THX i almost did overwrite my original ....
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22:08:19 <Eddi|zuHause> who in his right mind puts a patch on an installed version without backing up?
22:08:20 <Nite> when you see wahts in the zip its quite logical
22:08:50 <Nite> it could have been a pathc that just adds additional files ...
22:09:08 <Nite> but right i havent used ottd pathces so far
22:12:06 <Nite> anyway i got it now - guess i need some schnaps now
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22:22:51 <Ruudjah|energetic> i wonder why a faq is still needed for software (read: openttd)
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22:24:16 <Ruudjah|energetic> *for software installation*
22:25:05 <Rubidium> Ruudjah|energetic: there's no need for a FAQ as long as you keep to stable releases with installers
22:25:25 <Rubidium> once you want something that doesn't contain an installer it's up to you to do the installing
22:25:36 <Rubidium> and lots of people apparantly can't figure that out on their own
22:26:07 <Rubidium> this results in people frequently asking (the same) questions about the installation of whatever they want to play
22:27:01 <Rubidium> furthermore languages are ambiguous like hell
22:27:14 <Rubidium> even hell is an ambiguous word as it can have many meanings
22:27:47 <Rubidium> and then people start to use words for which other people have another assumption on the meaning of said word
22:28:03 <TrueBrain> repeat after me ... yes repeat after me .. here we go:
22:28:12 <Rubidium> *buuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrp*
22:28:31 <Rubidium> oh noes... now it's bleeding
22:29:36 <Ruudjah|energetic> eg, autogrf downloader, autoupdater, version installer & version manager, etc implementation would make installfaq obsolete?
22:29:53 * benjamingoodger slaps TrueBrain a bit with a packet of antacid tablets
22:30:02 <Rubidium> Ruudjah|energetic: really?
22:30:47 <Rubidium> if I make a special version you still need that version of the game in a way that works for you
22:31:15 <Rubidium> simply downloading my binary will not work... when you're not running my OS
22:31:32 * TrueBrain hacks Rubidium's computer
22:31:37 <Ruudjah|energetic> openttd version manager? openttd.exe shows list of installed versions, then user clicks on a version
22:31:38 <Rubidium> autoupdate... to what version? What if it's an old binary?
22:32:03 <Rubidium> then it'd need to recreate that binary in some way
22:32:16 <Ruudjah|energetic> not sure if you being sarcastic right now
22:32:19 <Rubidium> that'd mean bootstrapping a compiler that compile that version and then building openttd for that version
22:32:42 <Rubidium> which would mean you need a compiler that can the compiler installed on your computer
22:33:02 <benjamingoodger> and all the same versions of the various header files and such.
22:33:22 <Ruudjah|energetic> i mean from a user perspective
22:33:31 <Ruudjah|energetic> from a dee perspective, u would probably be right
22:33:35 <Rubidium> then there's the legal issues regarding downloading grfs
22:33:48 <Ruudjah|energetic> i have about 12 folders with different ottd version installed on my prgfiles dir
22:34:23 <Ruudjah|energetic> whats the difference i downloading grfs with openttd or opera or firefox or...?
22:34:28 <benjamingoodger> the facts do not magically adjust to your perspective
22:35:17 <benjamingoodger> users can't run windows binaries on a linux system* any more easily than developers
22:35:20 <Rubidium> openttd would need to download them from a central server as there's no way we can make openttd smart enough to google for a specific newgrf
22:35:34 <Rubidium> and downloading from a central server means redistributing
22:35:51 <Rubidium> and redistributing is forbidden, by license, for a number of NewGRFs
22:35:51 <benjamingoodger> not necessarily, it just needs to download a list of URLs from the central server.
22:36:12 <TrueBrain> omg ... how often does the discussion happen here?
22:36:20 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: every few hours
22:36:31 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: you want me to script the replies in DorpsGek? :p
22:37:14 <Ruudjah|energetic> so if i build/start a project called winottdversionmanager, i would violate exactly what legal aspects if i incorporate a list of grfs?
22:37:14 <TrueBrain> Osai: erlang is indeed a nice language (still ahven't wrote anything with it, but still ;))
22:37:21 *** Eddi|zuHause2 has joined #openttd
22:38:17 <Rubidium> Ruudjah|energetic: things like copyright infringement or whatever it's called under the Berne convention
22:38:48 <Ruudjah|energetic> but, then i would infringe copyrights right now too. Since i download the grfs using a software program called opera
22:39:07 <benjamingoodger> Rubidium: actually, he's now proposing not to redistribute things, but instead to provide a list of places where things are originally distributed from
22:39:43 <Nite> maybee they should drop some DRM on their pixeltrain sprites.
22:39:47 <Rubidium> hmm... there we go with ambiguous... what does 'list of grfs' mean?
22:40:06 <TrueBrain> if they still have to open a browser to a HTML which shows the license, it is fine
22:40:14 <benjamingoodger> I don't think that's ambiguous at all, actually
22:40:25 <TrueBrain> Osai: erlang ... yes?
22:40:37 <Nite> whats teh point of copyrighting newgrfs
22:40:41 <Osai> how comes you highlighted my name here :D
22:40:48 <TrueBrain> Osai: channel I had open :p
22:41:24 <Ruudjah|energetic> TrueBrain: why is the browser important?
22:41:27 <benjamingoodger> TrueBrain: the license could just as easily be incorporated into the list of URLs for grfs, and then shown by OTTD... thus not defeating the point
22:41:40 <Osai> it would be cool for handling openttds masterserver too
22:41:41 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: not the browser, the 'HTML which shows the license' part
22:41:43 <benjamingoodger> because if you have to open a browser in any case, you might as well give up
22:41:48 <Rubidium> Nite: I suggest you read some legal FAQs; almost everything is copyrighted (except government generated stuff) (for the exact definition: see a lawyer)
22:41:58 <benjamingoodger> again, HTML is not special in copyright law
22:42:14 <TrueBrain> okay, Rubidium, I give up on this already :)
22:42:14 <Ruudjah|energetic> why is html needed to read a license?
22:42:20 <Osai> and if needed you can add new servers to the masterserver system quite easily
22:42:22 <TrueBrain> I wish you good luck with the rest of the conversation ;)
22:42:33 <Ruudjah|energetic> ok, i wont tire you guys up
22:42:35 <benjamingoodger> Rubidium: the government of the UK makes a large profit from copyrighting its output
22:42:41 <Nite> and because almost everythingis copyrighted newgrfs must be too .. ic
22:42:54 <Ruudjah|energetic> but please, one more question: what are you guys afraid off?
22:42:56 <TrueBrain> Osai: hehe, it is an idea .. ;)
22:43:05 <benjamingoodger> nite: everything is copyrighted by default...
22:43:06 <Osai> we might do that next year :D
22:43:20 <Ruudjah|energetic> angry grf creators?
22:43:27 <Rubidium> Nite: no, because you cannot NOT copyright it (double negative, I know; again... see a lawyer)
22:43:34 <Ruudjah|energetic> some companies sueing the ottd project?
22:43:39 <Nite> so when i make a pic of my cats arse and send it to the inet its not compyrightet by default
22:43:42 <Osai> the database system (mnesia) is a bit tricky IMHO
22:43:46 <Nite> im to dumb for this iguess
22:43:49 <benjamingoodger> nite: yes, it is
22:43:55 <benjamingoodger> unless you place it in the public domain.
22:44:05 <TrueBrain> and Public Domain only exists in USA :p
22:44:16 <benjamingoodger> no, no it does not
22:44:23 <Ruudjah|energetic> what would happen if you ignore certain aspects of copyright? the eiffel tower would fall down?
22:44:58 <Ruudjah|energetic> what are you guys afraid of?
22:45:04 <Nite> so newgraf are no public domain nor are they gnu?
22:45:16 <benjamingoodger> I think some are GPL
22:45:28 <Ruudjah|energetic> has there been any threat against ottd project rgarding gpl/legalstuff
22:45:35 <benjamingoodger> Ruudjah|energetic: the project would grind to a halt as its ISPs baulked under takedown notices from copyright holders, and a small number of the team might be subjected to lawsuit or imprisonment
22:45:40 <Rubidium> just for you to know... Linux, OpenTTD, GIMP, ... find more GPLed projects are all copyrighted
22:46:00 <Nite> and adding some txt where there is stated that they are gpl gnu whatever would be enough as i understand
22:46:35 <Rubidium> Nite: saying something is licensed under GPL doesn't remove the copyright; it only licenses you to do specific things
22:47:14 <benjamingoodger> you have to say "this is placed in the public domain" etc. to remove the copyright
22:47:17 <planetmaker> Nite: there's a difference between "allowed to do anything" and "having copyright of"
22:47:32 <Ruudjah|energetic> what copyright holders would sent notices? grf creators?
22:47:37 <planetmaker> benjamingoodger: that won't work either. It will just allow anyone to use it for any purpose
22:47:45 <Ruudjah|energetic> only thing i can imagine is chris sawyer
22:47:50 <planetmaker> You simply cannot give away copyright. It's granted.
22:47:53 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: www.tt-forums.net, search for your idea ... read the replies of NewGRF authors .. I rest my case :)
22:47:56 <Nite> yeah yust copy that notices everywhere you can
22:48:04 <Ruudjah|energetic> but that thing is managed great, by having refer to install dir when installing ottd
22:48:06 <benjamingoodger> Ruudjah|energetic: the newgrf artists
22:48:10 <svippy> Uh, the presence of benjamingoodger reminds me I should continue on my novel. Thank you.
22:48:20 <Rubidium> and what we are "afraid" of is the following: some of the important NewGRF authors will remove all compatability for OpenTTD from their newgrfs, effectively making it impossible to use them in OpenTTD.
22:48:24 <Nite> maybee i should stop typing because i dont get the point at all.
22:48:38 <benjamingoodger> no, that means you should _continue_ typing
22:48:52 <Ruudjah|energetic> okay, that makes some clear.
22:49:04 <svippy> Should I type something meaningful?
22:49:09 <benjamingoodger> not you, svippy ¬.¬
22:49:10 <Nite> so its still the newgrf creators who dont like their work to be free ?
22:49:14 <benjamingoodger> type your novel. :P
22:49:23 <svippy> You don't do that over IRC.
22:49:27 <Ruudjah|energetic> you guys think that when i create some project to remove the issue, they would send my isp a takedown notice?
22:49:28 <svippy> Unless it is one of those OpenNovels.
22:49:48 <benjamingoodger> type your novel into a word-processor
22:49:48 <Rubidium> Nite: it's the NewGRF creators that do not like to get bugreports about old and archaic NewGRFs that are still swarming the automatic downloading system
22:50:17 <Nite> and taht was my inital questions - why do the newgf authors dont want the newgrfs to be free?
22:50:17 <Ruudjah|energetic> do grf pngs have version metadata?
22:50:23 <benjamingoodger> ...except, of course, that the system Ruudjah|energetic is actually proposing does not involve distributing anything
22:51:08 <benjamingoodger> nite: they want to retain proprietary control over what is done with it, I suppose, and to get more recognition for it...
22:51:34 <TrueBrain> there are also a few people who want their name in the source code :) Lucky enough, we refuse that ..
22:51:53 <Ruudjah|energetic> there is no credits page?
22:51:57 <Nite> ok - at first it sounded tome as everything is copyrighted by officials automatically ...
22:51:58 <Ruudjah|energetic> i mean window of openttd
22:52:02 <benjamingoodger> so copyright is ceded to the project?
22:52:11 <benjamingoodger> nite: that is correct
22:52:36 <Sacro> benjamingoodger: I doubt that
22:52:55 <Rubidium> Ruudjah|energetic: there's no such thing as grf pngs
22:52:59 <benjamingoodger> everything is copyrighted by its own existence, and then the creator grants rights
22:53:08 <benjamingoodger> the berne convention is quite clear on this
22:53:12 <planetmaker> exactly, benjamingoodger
22:53:13 <Nite> you cant copyright any data that flows through the net
22:53:23 <benjamingoodger> nite: yes, you can
22:53:34 <benjamingoodger> I can copyright this sentence, for instance
22:53:35 <planetmaker> Nite: nothing needs being copyrighted.
22:53:46 <benjamingoodger> indeed, by typing it, I copyrighted it
22:53:49 <Nite> ok i see the creator has copyright - not hte officials
22:53:57 <TrueBrain> LOL! I wonder if that holds up in court ...
22:53:57 <planetmaker> benjamingoodger: hardly ;) But not for the reason of non-existance of copyright.
22:54:07 <TrueBrain> it is copyrighted to me!
22:54:07 <planetmaker> Just not too ingenious ;)
22:54:11 <benjamingoodger> --- and by sending it to you, obviously, I granted you the right to copy it and read it and such
22:54:12 <Nite> until he states different things
22:54:40 <benjamingoodger> but that's automatic, due to the terms of use of Humanity
22:55:00 <TrueBrain> oh, stupid of us ... we forgot about the terms of use of Humanity ..
22:55:04 <TrueBrain> how could we forget about that ..
22:55:12 <TrueBrain> I feel so stupid now ..
22:55:16 <TrueBrain> wait ... I am not the one being stupid here
22:55:16 <planetmaker> general rule: you may assume nothing. Everything you want to do has to be explicitly granted to you by the author / artist
22:55:26 <Ruudjah|energetic> not sure where the sarcastic/negative undertone is coming from
22:55:42 <Ruudjah|energetic> i guess u guys are very tired about this shippering between users and grf creators
22:55:44 <benjamingoodger> well, actually, you are, TrueBrain, because you have failed utterly to detect a metaphor
22:55:57 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: this discussion happens once or twice a month ;)
22:55:58 <Nite> terms of humanity ? its yust about sending some piles of pixels across the net that should look like vehicles
22:56:20 <planetmaker> Nite: a newgrf is not just an image. And even if so - it wouldn't matter.
22:56:35 <benjamingoodger> it qualifies as an artwork...
22:56:52 <planetmaker> or as programming. Matter of perspective ;)
22:57:23 <benjamingoodger> I think the pixels are the artwork part ¬_¬
22:57:31 <Nite> well just do them good and paint their names im some kind of ppreview to rais their egos, maybee then it would be fine
22:57:31 <Ruudjah|energetic> so integrating winottdversionmanager into ottd project would still mean i would not violate any gpl?
22:58:19 <Rubidium> that depends on many aspects
22:58:43 <benjamingoodger> Ruudjah|energetic: so long as it does not actually involve distributing other people's copyrighted work without their permission, it is OK
22:58:54 <benjamingoodger> you're allowed to tell people where that work is.
22:59:01 <Ruudjah|energetic> "distribting"....
22:59:03 <Nite> projects hindered by selfishness...
22:59:13 <TrueBrain> Nite: aren't all good projects? :)
22:59:22 <Eddi|zuHause2> <benjamingoodger> I can copyright this sentence, for instance <- no, for anything to be subject of copyright, it must involve a significant level of artistic creativity
22:59:28 <benjamingoodger> nite: that applies to most things
22:59:36 <Ruudjah|energetic> downloading would mean distributing?
22:59:50 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: automated, without showing a license, yes ;)
22:59:55 <planetmaker> download IS distribution
23:00:08 <benjamingoodger> *cough*bollocks*cough*
23:00:09 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: there is a tricky slope, and I doubt OpenTTD would want to assosiate itself with it, if it pisses off some artists ;)
23:00:16 <TrueBrain> benjamingoodger: you? Yes!
23:00:17 <Ruudjah|energetic> i never have read any license when downloading the grfpack from ottdcoop
23:00:24 <Nite> technicall it would be no problem at all ... thats sad
23:00:29 <planetmaker> Ruudjah|energetic: you should.
23:00:38 <planetmaker> You're not allowed to distribute it.
23:00:55 <benjamingoodger> if a software program downloads things, that does not mean that the program's creators are redistributing said things
23:00:58 <planetmaker> And many grf have their own license which we supply
23:01:12 <Nite> is there re-redestirbute
23:01:15 <Ruudjah|energetic> what exactly then is redistributing it...? downloading it and puttingit into some progam files dir is?
23:01:16 <Rubidium> Ruudjah|energetic: but then... ottdcoop's grfpack doesn't contain all NewGRFs... and... they have permission to distribute the NewGRFs under some strict rules
23:01:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> Ruudjah|energetic: no, putting it up for someone else to download
23:01:38 <planetmaker> Ruudjah|energetic: we're re-distributing the grfs. But distributing the whole pack :)
23:02:05 <Ruudjah|energetic> i will write my first blogpost about this stuff... this stuff is killing oss development
23:02:06 <planetmaker> what Rubidium sais :)
23:02:16 <benjamingoodger> Ruudjah|energetic: redistributing would be the OTTD people getting it from the original author, and then putting it on their own server to be downloaded by users of OTTD
23:02:18 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: not only that ;)
23:02:48 <Rubidium> jup... it's also used to sue dead people
23:02:52 <benjamingoodger> however, your proposal does not involve that, so it would not count as redistribution
23:02:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> Ruudjah|energetic: how is this "killing"? the game runs perfectly fine without newgrfs
23:03:08 <planetmaker> Unfortunately there's also a bunch of grf creators which have no understanding of copyright issues at all...
23:03:12 <Ruudjah|energetic> Rubidium and TrueBrain: reading the words "grf"and "installer" got u both shaking as hell.... while u even didnt knew what hell meant.
23:03:28 <Ruudjah|energetic> its an insane situation
23:03:42 <Rubidium> oh... I know at least 4 definitions of hell, of which you most likely know 3 not
23:04:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> Ruudjah|energetic: so you mean nobody may create closed source programs which run on linux?
23:04:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> as this will kill linux development?
23:04:24 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
23:04:27 <benjamingoodger> Eddi|zuHause2: it's strongly discouraged...
23:04:35 <Ruudjah|energetic> I meant exactly what i said
23:04:40 <benjamingoodger> "hell is being stuck in a room forever with your best friends" --- satre
23:04:50 <Ruudjah|energetic> lets make it a bit more specific
23:05:29 <Ruudjah|energetic> copyright issues hamper usable oss software development, as proven by this discussion about grfs in openttd
23:05:48 <benjamingoodger> ah, but they also assist it
23:05:49 <Rubidium> it isn't copyright... it's licenses
23:05:51 <svippy> Wait, what is hampering OSS development?
23:05:57 <benjamingoodger> svippy: selfishness
23:06:00 <svippy> And why are you saying "oss software"?
23:06:07 <Ruudjah|energetic> "usable oss software"
23:06:09 <benjamingoodger> svippy: foolishness
23:06:11 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: in my opinion, it is not the copyright in this case; the authors don't like such system; fine, we need them, so let it be like that
23:06:16 <svippy> That's like saying xfs filesystem or it technology.
23:06:22 <planetmaker> Ruudjah|energetic: they do not necessarily.
23:06:22 <Ruudjah|energetic> openttd works, if you want to take the effort to install all
23:06:28 <svippy> You just repeated what the last part of the acronym stood for.
23:06:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Ruudjah|energetic: oss development must fit into copyright, not the other way round
23:06:51 <Ruudjah|energetic> agreed. But for Ottd, it does, and therefore, because there is one case, it hampers oss software
23:06:53 <planetmaker> for newgrfs which we have.
23:06:54 <Eddi|zuHause> copyright is the basis of everything
23:07:03 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: overgeneralization, sure
23:07:10 <benjamingoodger> that's an interesting statement, eddi...
23:07:10 <svippy> <Ruudjah|energetic> agreed. But for Ottd, it does, and therefore, because there is one case, it hampers oss software << So because of OTTD, people are not creating OSS.
23:07:22 <Ruudjah|energetic> I would not recommend ottd to a gamer friend of mine, since of installation usability issues
23:07:24 <svippy> btw, Ruudjah|energetic, the last S in OSS stands for "software".
23:07:39 <Ruudjah|energetic> swippy, please stop trolling my text
23:07:49 <svippy> No, I am pointing out your flaws.
23:07:53 <svippy> And my nick is spelt with a 'v'.
23:07:59 <Eddi|zuHause> open source is a way to specifically give up rights that are otherwise subject of copyright law
23:08:00 <Nite> copyright is a restriction.
23:08:03 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: svippy does make a point :) Your statement is heavily overstated
23:08:05 <benjamingoodger> Ruudjah|energetic: that was a legitimate thing to say. you're making a fool of yourself
23:08:07 <planetmaker> the vast majority of newgrfs may be freely used, most even re-distributed, most not modified, though
23:08:30 <Eddi|zuHause> these rights must be given up by the copyright holder
23:08:37 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: btw, I always votes for creating a GRF system which forces people to release their grf under an open license; to avoid such things
23:08:38 <Rubidium> Nite: not having copyright is a MUCH bigger restriction for development, as R&D wouldn't be worth the effort; better steal the competitors ideas
23:08:39 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what licenses are for
23:08:43 <TrueBrain> but the truth is slightly different :)
23:09:07 <Ruudjah|energetic> I am amazed of the frustration that comes loose just by textualizing some observing
23:09:13 <Nite> why not only take the ones who are free ...
23:09:15 <svippy> Indeed, Rubidium, that's why you need a licence that gives you freedom and your users freedom.
23:09:15 <TrueBrain> I am already very very happy OpenGFX fixed their license issues :)
23:09:33 <svippy> Ruudjah|energetic: You did not intend for us to react to your comment?
23:09:34 <planetmaker> hehe. yes. Was a difficult birth to that
23:09:38 <svippy> Then why did you open your mouth?
23:09:40 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: people want their credit ..... people really think that highly over theirselves :)
23:09:46 *** Progman has joined #openttd
23:09:57 <benjamingoodger> svippy: it actually restricts the user's freedom quite a lot, for the good of the software... see "anti-tivo angry-revenge clause" :)
23:10:07 <planetmaker> being credited is fine. It's one source of motivation. Not the least IMO
23:10:20 <svippy> What is wrong with credit, benjamingoodger?
23:10:27 <svippy> You need people motivated to create the software.
23:10:29 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: it is their right to demand "appropriate payment". that's what it says in the copyright (at least the german version)
23:10:32 <Ruudjah|energetic> svippy, you constantly take my remarks out of context
23:10:35 <benjamingoodger> svippy: wrong person
23:10:37 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: well, in fact it is very logic .. say you created some amazing NewGRF .. it would be nice if you can put that on your CV for a next job; so you want to give it a nice license ..
23:10:51 <svippy> If anything, the developer has as much right to the software as the user, if not more, benjamingoodger.
23:10:51 <Rubidium> Ruudjah|energetic: maybe it's because people getting aggravated by the constant stream of people we are doing things wrong without understanding the governing laws
23:11:01 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: exactly :)
23:11:12 <benjamingoodger> svippy: again, you are addressing the wrong person
23:11:24 <svippy> You said it restricts the freedom of the user a lot.
23:11:25 <Rubidium> Ruudjah|energetic: maybe it's because people getting aggravated by the constant stream of people who are saying we are doing things wrong without understanding the governing laws
23:11:45 <svippy> It doesn't *and* it shouldn't matter, cause the user isn't the one who wrote the code in the first place.
23:11:58 <svippy> Besides, what can't the user do?
23:12:00 <benjamingoodger> the 0th freedom is cancelled in GPL3 under certain conditions
23:12:01 <Eddi|zuHause> open source is not about users
23:12:05 <Ruudjah|energetic> but apparently, it hampers development of openttd. You guys do not want to make an autodownaloder component for grfs since of users want to have their credits. Hence, its hampering ottd development, hence it is hampering oss development (even itf it is only slightly, for one project, for one aspect of it)
23:12:08 <Eddi|zuHause> it is about potential co-developers
23:12:14 <svippy> You want a BSD licence instead, benjamingoodger?
23:12:19 <benjamingoodger> or rather, it is about the software
23:12:23 <svippy> That reduces protections of the developer.
23:12:32 <benjamingoodger> svippy: no, of course not
23:12:41 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: why are you so eager to find something that 'hampers' oss developement?
23:12:50 <TrueBrain> are you in that much need of a blog post? :) (seriously wondering)
23:12:56 <svippy> You think it is any wonder the Windows 98 TCP driver was taking from *BSD, benjamingoodger?
23:13:02 <benjamingoodger> you seem to be thinking the wrong way around
23:13:07 <TrueBrain> I mean ... an autodownlaoder isn't that much of a need for OpenTTD to succeed as project
23:13:19 <svippy> Cause I fail to see what the problem is about OpenTTD.
23:13:21 <benjamingoodger> ok, then, if you know you're doing it, stop :)
23:13:32 <planetmaker> Ruudjah|energetic: mind that Rubidium said that a download _could_ be possible, if it _could_ be ensured, that only newgrfs are downloaded whose license allows that (from a central repo where such things can be assured)
23:13:45 <Nite> i think crediting the artists is easy to do.
23:13:52 <Ruudjah|energetic> Truebrain: I am wondering why oss can't, after years of development, bring software to the masses.... With only one exception: firefox
23:14:06 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: that is more a PR issue ;)
23:14:12 <Ruudjah|energetic> installation of software is a serious issue for that
23:14:15 <TrueBrain> has little to do with something like being able to download newgrfs ;)
23:14:18 <Rubidium> Ruudjah|energetic: because users can't be arsed to change their habits
23:14:21 <planetmaker> Nite: that's not their only concern. Also only distributing newest version, having control over the spread of it.
23:14:24 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD really is a simple install process :)
23:14:29 <benjamingoodger> there is no specific problem with OTTD... I was just correcting your comment about the users being given freedom. the GPL actually restricts the user nowadays, and it restricts other developers a _lot_
23:14:32 <petern> main problem with an autodownloader is automatically finding the location of the download...
23:14:34 <svippy> Are we talking Windows, TrueBrain?
23:14:39 <TrueBrain> if you want to be a 'power' user of OpenTTD ....
23:14:42 <Ruudjah|energetic> a whole lot of issues, i think. Technical issues can be removed, since developers make the software. PR issues can be removed with money
23:14:46 <svippy> I dunno how it is on Windows...
23:14:52 <svippy> On Linux it is extract and run.
23:14:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Ruudjah|energetic: because software cannot be free, if you do not believe that, ask microsoft.
23:14:56 <planetmaker> petern: not so for a central repository.
23:14:59 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: and money ... OSS doesn't have ;) (in general)
23:15:23 <svippy> Why you think they all have MacBook Pros?
23:15:39 <Ruudjah|energetic> TrueBrain, installing openttd is not a simple process. Yes, I agree, from my own devver heart perspective it is ridiculously simple. But my mom, or my gamer-friend, still thinks it is hard!
23:15:44 <svippy> Organisation, indeed. Mozilla did have an advantage in the form of Netscape.
23:15:59 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: how is it hard? Double click the .exe, Next, Next, done
23:16:00 <petern> yeah, you have to run an installer... it's so hard :/
23:16:03 <TrueBrain> like any other software
23:16:09 <TrueBrain> sorry, I really fail to see how it is hard ....
23:16:11 <svippy> Ruudjah|energetic: Because they are narrow minded into a progress that isn't even fully standardised?
23:16:24 <TrueBrain> installing Microsoft Office is more hard :)
23:16:27 <benjamingoodger> svippy: well, actually, no, netscape got bought by AOL. the only thing moz shares with NS is the appalling rendering engine
23:16:30 <svippy> That is not OpenTTD's problem, that is their problem.
23:16:40 <svippy> Appalling, benjamingoodger?
23:16:47 <benjamingoodger> appalling, svippy.
23:16:49 <svippy> I fail to see how Gecko is appalling.
23:16:52 <Ruudjah|energetic> simply the observation that _they find it hard_, makes it that it is hard, at least for some people.
23:16:58 <benjamingoodger> well, it's slow... _really_ slow
23:17:05 <svippy> It is really really fast.
23:17:12 <svippy> On a daily fucking basis.
23:17:15 <Rubidium> Ruudjah|energetic: then Windows and Microsoft Word are hard to use
23:17:18 <svippy> And I can confirm otherwise.
23:17:23 <petern> gecko was made faster by throwing more mhz at it ;)
23:17:24 <Ruudjah|energetic> I think for an oss project to be successfull, it needs some preconditions. one-click installers are one of those
23:17:26 <svippy> benjamingoodger: Get a alpha release.
23:17:27 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: the observartion that they find it hard, without any clearification makes it useless for this project ;)
23:17:42 <benjamingoodger> and when I use webkit browsers, on the odd occasion, they expose gecko as terrible
23:17:45 <svippy> That's what you see Gecko in all its glory, benjamingoodger.
23:17:46 <TrueBrain> like I get clients calling: my computer gives an error! - Which one? - I forgot, I clicked it away
23:17:51 <TrueBrain> I rather have them not calling me :)
23:18:01 <svippy> The javascript engine have been seriously improved.
23:18:01 <petern> why should i trust you when i have first-hand experience?
23:18:06 <Ruudjah|energetic> Rabidium: yes, it is. That is why companies have admins, and support. That is why MS focused purely on UI for the 2007 release of office.
23:18:09 <svippy> Which version are you using, petern?
23:18:20 <benjamingoodger> I don't care about alpha releases, I care about releases. current stable releases of webkit are lightning-fast compared to current stable releases of gecko...
23:18:38 <svippy> Yes, and Webkit are partly developed by Apple and Google.
23:18:46 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: if any user fails to install OpenTTD Installer (Windows), they are not much of a user, and will never be able to install any project (sorry, but that is the truth)
23:18:53 <svippy> Sounds like an upper hand to me, benjamingoodger.
23:18:54 <TrueBrain> FireFox even has a more complex installer
23:19:03 <TrueBrain> and you pointed out yourself that it is a succeeding project :)
23:19:10 <TrueBrain> if you want to bring OpenTTD to the masses
23:19:13 <TrueBrain> you need to put money in it
23:19:14 <svippy> Trident sucks bollocks, and is created by the largest software company in the world, benjamingoodger.
23:19:15 <Ruudjah|energetic> wow Truebrain, that seems very arrogant to me
23:19:26 <svippy> benjamingoodger: They are working on it.
23:19:27 <benjamingoodger> ...what's your point?
23:19:39 <svippy> And the Gecko is fairly sophisticated.
23:19:44 <benjamingoodger> that's not a point
23:19:46 <svippy> And Webkit has several security issues.
23:19:48 <Nite> what makes the firefox installe complex?
23:19:57 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: not meant arrogant, more realistic :) A few times hitting Next should be possible for any user with a bit of knowledge; it doesn't matter how much 'Next' hits it needs
23:19:57 <petern> gecko doesn't have security issues? hehe
23:20:01 <Rubidium> Nite: that you have to read a EULA
23:20:11 <Nite> its clicking on an icon and ok ok ok.
23:20:24 <svippy> No, petern, but Gecko doesn't have obvious issues like Webkit have, petern.
23:20:24 <benjamingoodger> though there's a debian bug to strip that little abberation out
23:20:27 <Nite> noone can make you actually "read" it ;)
23:20:34 <Ruudjah|energetic> for ottd they fail at pointing to the original tt folder
23:20:39 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: I fail to see how such process can be improved any more, and how it can help in bringing OpenTTD 'to the masses'
23:20:41 <svippy> Did you not read the recent release of PM issues.
23:20:47 <svippy> Hm... wait, that might be a browser issue.
23:20:52 <Rubidium> but TrueBrain's right that bringing OpenTTD to the masses needs lots of money; and the first step would involve ... lawyers
23:21:08 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: okay, there you have a point
23:21:13 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: OpenGFX most likely fixes most of that
23:21:18 <benjamingoodger> I fail utterly to see how an HTML renderer can have any security issues
23:21:30 <svippy> Ask Microsoft, benjamingoodger.
23:21:36 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: btw, have the original TT CD in your cdrom drive and you will be fine ;)
23:21:37 <benjamingoodger> well, I mean, useful ones
23:21:52 <benjamingoodger> trident's a pile of wank, you needn't insult me by bringing it into this conversation
23:21:54 <svippy> Sorry, benjamingoodger, but some render engines apparently can execute code.
23:21:56 <Ruudjah|energetic> what about: *clicks "install OTTD button at ottd website"* 2. window pops up, showing "You really want to install?" yes/no 3. "Ottd is installed. Do you want to start it now? yes/no"
23:22:02 <Nite> openttd will hopefully NOT end as bought out unfinished to some publisher ...
23:22:03 <Rubidium> and again there's the number 1 problem of "users": they click click click and don't read
23:22:03 <svippy> I apologise, benjamingoodger.
23:22:17 <benjamingoodger> ok, onto point 2
23:22:18 <Ruudjah|energetic> users never have a problem
23:22:22 <benjamingoodger> gecko uses too much memory
23:22:29 <Ruudjah|energetic> devvers always do, and thus software always has
23:22:31 <Rubidium> and not reading stuff is the major cause of people getting aggravated by so-called noobs
23:22:44 <svippy> Benchmark studies showed that Firefox 3 used the least amount of memory of all the modern browsers.
23:22:48 <benjamingoodger> yesterday it was eating 850M with one firefox tab
23:23:08 <svippy> Are you sure you're using Firefox 3?
23:23:12 <planetmaker> depends upon what is displayed.
23:23:12 <Nite> forget about memory usage soon well have 64 bit systems
23:23:20 <planetmaker> If I display a 1GB image ;)
23:23:30 <benjamingoodger> which I think is about thirty K
23:23:34 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: do tell, ignoring the requirement for the graphics problem, what the difference is between installing OpenTTD and installing FireFox?
23:23:40 <benjamingoodger> massive memory leaks FTL.
23:23:44 <svippy> Right now, benjamingoodger, I have 40 tabs open.
23:24:06 <benjamingoodger> point three. gecko doesn't support font definitions within CSS
23:24:17 <benjamingoodger> point four. gecko extends CSS with proprietary components
23:24:21 <TrueBrain> FireFox too is: clikc, download, double click on exe, Agree (even a thingy you need to click), Next, Next, Next, Install
23:24:25 <svippy> Firefox is using 272m.
23:24:37 <benjamingoodger> well, good for you. mine used 850M
23:24:39 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD is: clikc, download, double clock on exe, Next, Next, *click dir for TT graphics*, Next :p
23:24:42 <svippy> So does webkit, benjamingoodger.
23:24:48 <Ruudjah|energetic> 1. The page promoting firefox. It instantly shows the functionality and advantges of firefox.
23:25:10 <benjamingoodger> that doesn't mean that gecko should
23:25:11 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: 1. www.openttd.org ; it instantly shows the funcionality and adavantages of OpenTTD. :)
23:25:16 <Ruudjah|energetic> 2. the question: are you experienced or not? --> "standard/expert installation""
23:25:17 <svippy> In fact, W3C have defined that variables starting with - are non-standard to be defined by the browser, benjamingoodger.
23:25:24 <Nite> ff has very few functionality thats its strongpoint
23:25:24 <Rubidium> Ruudjah|energetic: and where should OpenTTD be compared with?
23:25:28 <benjamingoodger> gecko can be crappy on its own or in comparison to webkit
23:25:32 <benjamingoodger> in this case it is crappy on its own
23:25:35 <Rubidium> i.e. where does it have advantages over?
23:25:47 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: over being bored and sitting silent at your desk :)
23:25:55 <svippy> While they wait for the CSS3 to be standardised, benjamingoodger.
23:26:04 <svippy> Which it hasn't yet, but still are taking it to them.
23:26:10 <Nite> thx of reminding truebrain ;D
23:26:17 <Ruudjah|energetic> 3: install location. What has my mother to do where openttd is going on the HDD>
23:26:17 <benjamingoodger> yes, indeed, but CSS3 has been stable since the beginning of time
23:26:35 <benjamingoodger> but let us cease this vitriol-filled conversation
23:26:39 <Ruudjah|energetic> 4: why would my mother care about the start menu folder?
23:26:42 <benjamingoodger> how is your novel? :)
23:26:48 <svippy> O: I think it is good.
23:26:54 <svippy> But I am obviously biased.
23:27:12 <svippy> But! I have that far yet.
23:27:12 <benjamingoodger> well, yes, so am I, and so is everyone else. the idea is to convince people you're not ^_^
23:27:26 <benjamingoodger> that's more than mine...
23:27:26 <Ruudjah|energetic> openttd.org shows the latest blogpost, not the advatnatges/features/func of openttd
23:27:33 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: 3. any sane installer asks
23:27:48 <TrueBrain> and you think THAT is in the way of 'to the masses'?
23:27:51 <benjamingoodger> would you care to send me the text, just so I can shove it into my typesetter and tell you how many pages it is? :)
23:27:52 <Ruudjah|energetic> i install about 10 programs a day
23:27:58 <Ruudjah|energetic> but my mother doesnt
23:28:07 <TrueBrain> so she clicks 'next'
23:28:13 <TrueBrain> like any user who has no clue what to hit next does :p
23:28:18 <Rubidium> Ruudjah|energetic: again... advantages compared to what?
23:28:19 <Ruudjah|energetic> PS *mother* is my metaphor for the dumbest user possible
23:28:23 <benjamingoodger> I promise not to publish it :)
23:28:26 <svippy> benjamingoodger: I warn you! There are several spelling mistakes and grammar issues in it. Including plot holes and other errors.
23:28:32 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: I would have picked the same metaphor ;)
23:28:34 <Ruudjah|energetic> compared to Transport Tycoon maybe?
23:28:44 <Rubidium> Ruudjah|energetic: give you mother ubuntu; then she doesn't have any installer wizards, i.e. it's much easier
23:28:54 <Ruudjah|energetic> (not being sarcastic here, just wanna give feedback.... I love all you guys' efforts....!)
23:29:22 <Ruudjah|energetic> But I learned that users are dumb
23:29:44 <Ruudjah|energetic> and therefore we --> "developers" need to anticipate on that dumbness
23:29:44 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: and there still isn't a cure :)
23:30:02 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: it really won't give us any significant amount of more users
23:30:04 <planetmaker> there're two things which are infinite: stupidity and the universe. I'm not sure about the latter (A. Einstein)
23:30:09 <Ruudjah|energetic> and usually, we "developers" are smart enough to do so. usually, its just a it of psychology
23:30:12 <TrueBrain> as if you mother would want to play the game, she asks ;)
23:30:14 <benjamingoodger> aaagh, do you have it as plaintext?
23:30:38 <Ruudjah|energetic> my gamer friend, for example, would.
23:30:47 <TrueBrain> I worked for ages as sysop at a school
23:30:48 <Nite> users are not dumb -most developers yust dont know how to trigger their intelligence.
23:30:53 <TrueBrain> the level of stupidness there is lowest of all
23:31:01 <TrueBrain> there really isn't a more stupid race on earth
23:31:11 <TrueBrain> I could hang on big billboards with instructions
23:31:13 <Nite> its more of a communicatoin problem i think
23:31:18 <TrueBrain> even hitting the: YES I AGREE button
23:31:22 <Ruudjah|energetic> but as we know the r stupid/dumb, we should anticipate on that
23:31:36 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: oh... in my view the sysops at my school were the dumbest ;)
23:31:45 <Ruudjah|energetic> hence cutting every possible little step in any kind of process
23:31:48 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: that is an other level of dumb ;)
23:31:58 <svippy> benjamingoodger: Uhm, no. Can OOo export to plain text?
23:32:15 <TrueBrain> it would be nice if we could have enough money to get OpenTTD really out there :p
23:32:40 <benjamingoodger> svippy: yeah, it's way down the list in the save as box
23:32:57 <TrueBrain> of course orudge will be leading the sell
23:33:00 <TrueBrain> and I will make a deal with him
23:33:53 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: I understand your effort, and what you try to say; I have been long enough to understand it perfectly fine :) But for fun, find such user which can't handle the OpenTTD installer
23:33:59 <TrueBrain> and try to give him any modified version of it
23:34:02 <Rubidium> as long as you start by buying the exclusive TTD license from Atari/whoever has it ;)
23:34:05 <TrueBrain> I think he will fail on any version you give him
23:34:07 <Ruudjah|energetic> have found already two
23:34:11 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: of course! :)
23:34:18 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: so modify the installer
23:34:21 <TrueBrain> and see where it goes wrong
23:34:37 <TrueBrain> as I think you will be very suprised :)
23:34:43 <svippy> benjamingoodger: Better?
23:34:52 <Ruudjah|energetic> not sure what you trying to tell here?
23:35:08 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: they can't ge tthe game installed, right?
23:35:13 <Rubidium> Ruudjah|energetic: the installer problem is mostly legal and not enough time
23:35:14 <TrueBrain> somewhere they fail in the process of hitting Next
23:35:35 <TrueBrain> so modify the installer in such way they don't fail :) I think you can't find any way ...
23:35:51 <TrueBrain> and if you do .. give us thepatch :p
23:36:03 <Ruudjah|energetic> i cant write cpp code
23:36:07 <TrueBrain> the isntaller is NSIS
23:36:11 <TrueBrain> nothing to do with C++ :p
23:36:24 <orudge> TrueBrain: 51% / 49%, obviously ;)
23:36:24 <TrueBrain> (not NCIS, that is a nice serie :p)
23:36:24 <Ruudjah|energetic> *moves unto todo list*
23:36:32 <TrueBrain> orudge: me the 51% Wow, tnx :)
23:36:35 <TrueBrain> good, that is a deal :)
23:36:40 <Ruudjah|energetic> nsis, wasnt that nulllsoft blalabla thingie?
23:36:59 <Ruudjah|energetic> those devvers are my heroes
23:37:10 <TrueBrain> in the old day they made an app which I would worth metioning
23:37:13 <TrueBrain> but I Wouldn't call it winamp
23:37:17 <TrueBrain> I woul dsay: winamp 2
23:37:19 <Rubidium> really? after the 2 series it totally sucked
23:37:22 <Ruudjah|energetic> motivation to dive into nsis +1
23:37:27 <TrueBrain> but ....... don't get any futher than that :p
23:37:42 <TrueBrain> so please never say again just: winamp!
23:37:52 <benjamingoodger> 177 pages without linebreaks, svippy. unfortunately it needs blank lines between paragraphs, but I shan't ask you to insert them ¬.¬
23:38:08 <Ruudjah|energetic> winamp 2: clickityclick *arivies instantly on screen, even if p150 16MB mem*
23:38:22 <Rubidium> Ruudjah|energetic: I'd like to add the precondition "do not add the TTD graphics to the installer" for your "easy" installer project
23:38:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i still don't know why amarok 2 crashes on startup here...
23:38:30 <svippy> Hm, benjamingoodger, right now I use line breaks for paragraph change and two line breaks for section change.
23:38:37 *** Yeggstry is now known as Yeggzzz
23:38:38 <svippy> I suppose that is easily converted, hm?
23:38:41 <Ruudjah|energetic> winamp 3 clickteyclick *wait.... wait.... wait.... HDD busy.... half screen appears.....*
23:38:52 <Ruudjah|energetic> next day, winamp 3 arrives
23:38:59 <benjamingoodger> yeah, but I CBA until you've finished it (and signed a publication contract)
23:39:02 <TrueBrain> try their 'latest' version ..
23:39:08 <TrueBrain> even songbird boots faster for the first time
23:39:11 <benjamingoodger> I've finished the ending for my novel now... there is much death, for people who deserve it, and one death for someone who does not
23:39:36 <TrueBrain> we ar ethe people who deserve it, and you are the one who does not?
23:39:40 <svippy> Is it bad that there isn't so much death in mine, benjamingoodger?
23:39:53 <svippy> The only death there really is is really really odd.
23:39:59 <svippy> Actually, the entire story is odd.
23:40:01 <Ruudjah|energetic> TrueBrain/Rubidium: I totally understand you guys do not want any connection with some autodownloader/autoinstaller of grf/newgrf due to artist stubbornness... no problem. I will never try to affiliate ottd project in any way with it.
23:40:04 <svippy> Even so, it confuses me at times.
23:40:14 <benjamingoodger> no, non-death is good also
23:40:29 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: or try to find common ground with those people, I say ;)
23:40:36 <benjamingoodger> the death at the end was necessary for character development and emotional exposition etcetcetcetc.
23:40:49 <svippy> It brings on many changes.
23:40:56 <Ruudjah|energetic> "or try to find common ground with those people, I say" that _does sound sarcastic :P
23:41:07 <TrueBrain> I was pretty serious
23:41:33 <benjamingoodger> "do unto others as you would have them do to you." "yeah, like that'll work! ppfff!"
23:41:38 <TrueBrain> btw, Lijbrandt zuigt
23:41:48 <Ruudjah|energetic> i already do.
23:42:06 <TrueBrain> Surfnet over Lijbrandt even does .. but at least it gives 100/100 :p
23:42:15 <Ruudjah|energetic> but usually, i do have the 10 100Mbit straight-onto-amsix advantage.
23:42:16 <benjamingoodger> the character dying is killed off deliberately by one of the other characters
23:42:33 <benjamingoodger> and a third character then gets to hate the latter throughout the sequel.
23:42:44 <Ruudjah|energetic> which is unmatched. reliability is a learneing point for them though (yes... sarcasm)
23:42:52 <TrueBrain> benjamingoodger / svippy: don't you think it is time for both of you to find your own channel?
23:42:57 <Eddi|zuHause> this is openttd... unless your people are killed in a vehicle accident, you are off topic here
23:43:13 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: hehe ... I know all about that :) Even meet the director of Lijbrandt to explain the problems :p
23:43:13 <Ruudjah|energetic> Nite: can follow discussion still?
23:43:25 <Ruudjah|energetic> where u live, TB?
23:43:31 <Nite> topcis ? are there topics here :D
23:43:34 <TrueBrain> Surfnet .. Lijbrandt ...
23:43:36 <Eddi|zuHause> grammar you learn can still
23:43:49 <TrueBrain> I am not that big :p
23:43:58 <benjamingoodger> is that a specific request to stop discussing this topic here, TrueBrain?
23:44:03 <svippy> Eddi|zuHause; learn grammar, you could.
23:44:11 <svippy> Maybe I am just a Yoda fan.
23:44:11 <TrueBrain> benjamingoodger: well, I always wanted to test my new @kick command, but yes
23:44:18 <Ruudjah|energetic> whugh, for new good guesses i have to check their website... I hate to focus energy on them. cant u just tell?
23:44:25 <benjamingoodger> ok... and will you extend the same courtesy to us?
23:44:52 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: I never worked there :p
23:45:34 <Ruudjah|energetic> but hired as consult?
23:45:42 <Ruudjah|energetic> what town didnt i mention?
23:45:48 <TrueBrain> I live in Leiden :)
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23:46:12 <TrueBrain> Surfnet and Lijbrandt .. only Leiden has that :p
23:46:32 <TrueBrain> I was in a "kritische gebruikersgroep" to get that in correct state ...
23:46:35 <Ruudjah|energetic> i have lijbrandt
23:46:40 <Ruudjah|energetic> as u noticed
23:46:47 <Ruudjah|energetic> but dont live in leiden
23:46:59 <Ruudjah|energetic> so what did u do?
23:47:01 <TrueBrain> Surfnet is the 100/100 connection :)
23:47:07 <Ruudjah|energetic> u walked into management office
23:47:12 <benjamingoodger> TrueBrain: kindly explain how you arrived at the conclusion that your present dialogue is less offtopic than mine
23:47:13 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: does that mean you overused your connection? :p
23:47:15 <TrueBrain> a nice meeting and all
23:47:27 <Ruudjah|energetic> between users and admins and management?
23:47:34 <TrueBrain> users and management at first
23:47:41 <TrueBrain> we had to beg for one sysop
23:47:42 <Ruudjah|energetic> but i do have 100/100
23:47:57 <TrueBrain> when the sysop joiend the meeting, 3 meeting later, the problem was fixed within a week :p
23:48:10 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: hmm .. you are right, they have those too :)
23:48:18 <Ruudjah|energetic> there is an awesome (dutch) post about this tsuf...
23:48:19 <TrueBrain> benjamingoodger: our topic isn't going on for more than 10 minutes now
23:49:00 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: not overused .. still do :p
23:49:27 <Ruudjah|energetic> KnetterGek is one of the best GoT users
23:49:42 <TrueBrain> hitting 4 TiB a month ... hmm ...
23:49:44 <Ruudjah|energetic> ok, ill give a translation
23:50:01 <TrueBrain> I don't hav epermission!! :'(
23:50:22 <svippy> It's like permission, but electronic!
23:50:27 <TrueBrain> logging in helps :p
23:50:31 *** roboboy has joined #openttd
23:51:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't have "toegang" either
23:51:32 * Rubidium dislikes stuff that requires logins to just view something
23:51:55 <TrueBrain> so you dislike your bankaccount?
23:51:57 <Ruudjah|energetic> url works here
23:52:13 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: you need to be logged in to tweakers .. I guess most of the users here don't even know what it is :p
23:52:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean i usually understand dutch, but forcing me to register... i won't do that
23:52:35 <Ruudjah|energetic> can post dutch post here
23:52:49 <Ruudjah|energetic> Zoals gezegd, de business moet iets willen. De IT club (en dus ook de ontwikkeling) voert dat uit. Zeggen dat je ontwikkelingsclub naar eigen inzicht bedrijfsbhoeften mag opvangen is natuurlijk vragen om ellende: de ontwikkeling heeft per definitie geen verstand van hoe het bedrijf moet lopen: dat is per definitie de directie die dat weet. Netto resultaat zou, in een kristal helder voorbeeld, kunnen zijn dat de ontwikkelaars een gratis
23:52:49 <Ruudjah|energetic> person shooter ontwikkelen omdat de meeste gebruikers het leuk vinden tegen elkaar schietspelletjes over het LAN te doen. Dat er ook behoefte aan is om bijvoorbeeld patientgegevens bij de verpleging te krijgen, dat kan, maar ja, ontwikkeling moet de prioriteit vaststellen dus ja... d'r willen meer mensen gamen dan werken heh. De verpleegster komt zo de quaddamage brengen.
23:52:49 <Ruudjah|energetic> Het probleem is in jouw geval niet de IT club. En niet dat jullie de bal gegooid krijgen, dat jullie zelf naar hartelust projectjes mogen verzinnen of wat dan ook.
23:52:51 <Ruudjah|energetic> Het probleem is semi overheid en dat het management in zulke toko's eigenlijk behoudens een zeldzame uitzondering geen flauw benul heeft van hoe je een bedrijf runt en hoe je een organisatie goed opzet en draaiend houd.
23:52:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i will go to bed.
23:53:01 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: so soon?
23:53:04 <TrueBrain> but we will miss you :(
23:53:17 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. i must be sick or something
23:53:34 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: well, good night :)
23:53:48 <dihedral> is there any way clients can check if a company has a password set or not?
23:54:16 <TrueBrain> it used to be in a query packet
23:54:18 <dihedral> use_password in _network_company_info is not set
23:54:20 <TrueBrain> but my knowledge is outdated :p
23:54:32 <Ruudjah|energetic> translation is hard
23:54:37 <Ruudjah|energetic> nuances go lost
23:54:47 <dihedral> which is a shame, because that value is merely a boolean and could be set imo
23:54:49 <Ruudjah|energetic> hence 75% of the humor
23:54:53 <Eddi|zuHause> welcome to the real world
23:54:59 <benjamingoodger> "As I said, the business must want something. The IT club (and hence the development) bring that out. To say that your development club at its discretion may absorb bedrijfsbhoeften is asking for trouble: the development by definition has no understanding of how the company must walk: that is, by definition, the supervisor who knows. Net result would, in a crystal clear example may be that the developers developed an
23:55:00 <benjamingoodger> FPS because most users find it fun shooting games against each other on the LAN to do. That there is also need for example, patient data in nursing to get, you can, but yes, development priority should therefore adopt yes ... her want more people working than gaming heh. The nurse comes as damage to the quad.
23:55:00 <benjamingoodger> The problem is not the case in your IT club. And not that you get the ball thrown, that you own to your heart's projects may invent or whatever.
23:55:06 <benjamingoodger> The problem is that the semi government and management in such toko's actually save a rare exception not the foggiest idea of how a company operates and how an organization well deliberately and keep running."
23:55:18 <TrueBrain> PASTEBIN people .. come on!
23:55:24 <benjamingoodger> by the gods, I say, google translate has godt good
23:55:24 <SmatZ> benjamingoodger: Ruudjah|energetic: you know paste.openttd.org, don't you?
23:55:25 <benjamingoodger> oh, yes, sorry :(
23:55:35 * benjamingoodger is tired and irascible
23:55:51 <Ruudjah|energetic> i noticed the recent developemtn on past website for irc
23:56:05 <Ruudjah|energetic> but i wont go into irc specifics
23:56:18 <Ruudjah|energetic> although opera made it finally accessible to me
23:56:34 <Ruudjah|energetic> since it is one click away
23:56:43 *** Dred_furst has joined #openttd
23:57:51 <Rubidium> dihedral: that'd require syncing that variable
23:58:49 <Rubidium> so it isn't at trivial as you'd think
23:59:19 <Ruudjah|energetic> any word on the competition thingie i started at the forum?
23:59:40 <TrueBrain> the only remaining word of this night I have for you is: goodnight :)
continue to next day ⏵