IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-12-11
⏴ go to previous day
00:00:19 <SmatZ> server A sees only tail of a train
00:00:26 <SmatZ> how does it know how fast should it move?
00:00:37 <TrueBrain> the train will be magicly running outside the map :)
00:00:48 <SmatZ> or how does it know if it doesn't crash?
00:00:53 <TrueBrain> well, in fact .. at that the train head leaves the map
00:00:58 <TrueBrain> it no longer has to care about the train :)
00:01:07 <SmatZ> so it whole disappears?
00:01:19 <TrueBrain> it is already outside of the map from the client point of view
00:01:39 <SmatZ> but how does server A know the train crashed at server B?
00:01:44 <SmatZ> it knows it one tick later
00:01:45 <TrueBrain> it doesn't need to :)
00:01:51 <TrueBrain> in those '8' tiles zones
00:02:01 <TrueBrain> all that server A does, is check for such events as crashes
00:02:04 <SmatZ> but then there may be another train that would crash that train when it crashed
00:02:04 <TrueBrain> and incoming trains
00:02:18 <SmatZ> but because it crashed "one tick later", it behaves differently
00:02:29 <TrueBrain> you and your "one tick later"
00:02:33 <TrueBrain> it is wrong thinking :)
00:02:44 <TrueBrain> I wish I could show you, but it takes a lot of programming time to do ;)
00:02:48 <petern> forgot fully synchronised maps
00:02:56 <TrueBrain> okay, train Z is coming from 17x0 on server A
00:02:59 <TrueBrain> and is running down
00:03:05 <TrueBrain> at 17x64 it is at the border of server A
00:03:14 <TrueBrain> server B in meantime was already tracking train Z when it was at 17x58
00:03:32 <TrueBrain> it magiclly appears in the 'black zone'
00:03:51 <TrueBrain> server A on the other hand, is tracking all data of server B up to 17x72
00:04:07 <TrueBrain> there is no way you can now have a crash, which is not registered at both server A and server B
00:04:15 <TrueBrain> given that the train is of a length max 8 (Well, say 7 to be safe)
00:04:27 <TrueBrain> when ever the head of the train passes 17x72, server A forgets about the train
00:04:36 <TrueBrain> (it already is at 17x8 on server B)
00:04:43 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
00:05:03 <SmatZ> ok, then the train stops
00:05:18 <SmatZ> and train at 17x64 crashes it's back
00:05:24 <SmatZ> server B knows about it
00:05:32 <TrueBrain> sure, server A does too
00:05:40 <SmatZ> [01:04:31] <TrueBrain> when ever the head of the train passes 17x72, server A forgets about the train
00:05:50 <TrueBrain> train length of 7 tiles
00:06:01 <TrueBrain> so no way a train can crash into train Z at 17x64, when his head is past 17x72
00:06:17 <TrueBrain> the math says that cna't be done ;)
00:06:40 <TrueBrain> from 17x56 up to 17x72, two servers track the same train
00:06:44 <SmatZ> you have two trains going in one direction ... first train has lower VehicleID, so its tick is executed first
00:06:45 <TrueBrain> what ever he does .. it is always safe :)
00:07:03 <SmatZ> for server B, the first train crashes train stopped at 17x72
00:07:11 <SmatZ> and train A crashes train B
00:07:27 <SmatZ> but for server A, train B doesn't crash anything
00:07:38 <TrueBrain> why wouldn't it, if it did on server B
00:08:03 <TrueBrain> I really see no event
00:08:16 <SmatZ> not to mention the order in which vehicle ticks are executed has to be synchronised
00:08:29 <TrueBrain> synchronized VehicleIDs
00:08:34 <TrueBrain> (is required anyway)
00:09:09 <SmatZ> train B goes one tick further, no problem
00:09:26 <SmatZ> train A following train B goes one tick further, no problem
00:09:38 <SmatZ> train B goes one tick further, crash
00:10:00 <SmatZ> it crashes to back of train C that has already disappeared on server A
00:10:03 <TrueBrain> it is in the design above IMPOSSIBLE for train B to crash on server B, but not on server A .. simply not possible :) (that is the whole idea of a duplicated border)
00:10:43 <TrueBrain> when you put two trains DIRECTLY after eachother, it might be possible that train Z crashes at 17x73, and that server B informs server A of this crash too late
00:10:50 <TrueBrain> very rare situation, but it might happen
00:10:55 <TrueBrain> either some correction algorithm should kick in
00:11:06 <TrueBrain> or server A should track train Z till it leaves the map completely
00:11:30 <SmatZ> well, then it has to know the whole map of server B
00:11:33 <TrueBrain> but that situation is very rare, as train A has to crash into train Z the SAME TICK as train Z crashes ..
00:11:37 <SmatZ> because of signals, PF etc.
00:11:55 <TrueBrain> no, server B just needs to update the position (or speed) of the train to server A
00:12:10 <TrueBrain> but I doubt any person can put two train after eachother which causes the situation above
00:12:27 <TrueBrain> haha, an other nasty solution is to delay the crash of the second train on server B anyway
00:12:44 <TrueBrain> and if that all fails, we make VEHICLE_CRASH a DoCommand, and it is fixed instantly ;)
00:12:46 <mrfrenzy> well you can't have two trains after one another
00:12:52 <TrueBrain> mrfrenzy: sure you can
00:12:55 <mrfrenzy> you will need two signals which means atleast half a square
00:12:56 *** Yeggstry has joined #openttd
00:13:05 <TrueBrain> ever tried: ignore red, button?
00:13:21 <mrfrenzy> will it catch up then you mean?
00:13:21 <TrueBrain> time it right .. use start/stop
00:13:26 <mrfrenzy> I never tried that...
00:13:30 <TrueBrain> and sure some insane idiot can time it exactly like that
00:13:42 <TrueBrain> I want to see you do that :)
00:14:02 <mrfrenzy> I volunteer to do that as soon as you got the server running TrueBrain ;)
00:14:15 <TrueBrain> SmatZ: anyway, the easiest solution is to make a correction algorithm in such rare rare cases
00:14:22 <TrueBrain> if server A says: vehicle N crashes
00:14:26 <TrueBrain> and server B says it one tick later
00:14:34 <TrueBrain> he was clearly wrong, and needs to update some info on the vehicle
00:14:40 <TrueBrain> (or say to server A: gimme the data on vehicle N)
00:15:12 <TrueBrain> anyway, one of the biggest changes this will need, is that each vehicle will need his own randomizer
00:15:25 <TrueBrain> this makes sure it makes the same choices on every client and server
00:16:07 <TrueBrain> and a big pain in the ass would be to synchronize towns over the border :)
00:16:15 <mrfrenzy> how much more network traffic would it mean to have the randomizing done on servers only instead of clients
00:16:24 <mrfrenzy> the servers only sending velocities and positions to clients
00:16:30 <mrfrenzy> and clients just sending commands to servers
00:16:35 <TrueBrain> mrfrenzy: it would get insane, the traffic :)
00:16:44 <TrueBrain> you have no idea the amount of data that changes every tick
00:16:57 <TrueBrain> (a big portion of the map-data alone changes, due to tree-growth and such)
00:17:16 <TrueBrain> SmatZ: but you see that that might just work out just fine? :)
00:18:03 <SmatZ> TrueBrain: everything is possible... but this is insane :)
00:18:10 <TrueBrain> how is that insane?
00:18:21 <TrueBrain> besides one very rare corner case you pointed out, it is in fact just synchronizing data
00:18:47 <TrueBrain> I do agree the servers need to be on a LAN of some sort
00:18:53 <TrueBrain> I don't want to see the bandwidth requirement for it :p
00:19:07 <SmatZ> true, you may completely ignore these corne cases :)
00:19:15 <mrfrenzy> me and a friend discussed the idea of trading trains/goods between different games
00:19:21 <TrueBrain> really... did you ever put two trains DIRECTLY after eachother? :p
00:19:37 <mrfrenzy> you just send a train across the border of the map, and then your server can forget about it
00:19:43 <mrfrenzy> then it appears on the other server
00:19:46 <TrueBrain> mrfrenzy: SimCity ;)
00:20:04 <TrueBrain> that in fact should be very easy to implement :)
00:20:09 <TrueBrain> well .. maybe not 'very' easy
00:20:13 <TrueBrain> but just a matter of writing
00:20:35 <mrfrenzy> and if the client moves to the other map, it can just overlap the two maps with a small gap
00:20:35 <TrueBrain> share some kind of security code between server, so you don't allow unauthroized access :p
00:20:49 <mrfrenzy> the server doesn't need to keep track of anything except what is on his own map
00:20:51 <TrueBrain> a special type of 'rail', which act as 'toll' port
00:21:04 <TrueBrain> clients moving between servers, than you get the story above ;)
00:21:07 <TrueBrain> which is highly complicated :)
00:21:12 <mrfrenzy> yeah, then you get paid exactly when they enter the toll
00:21:21 <TrueBrain> oh yes my friend :)
00:21:29 <mrfrenzy> the clients maintain the two maps separately
00:21:46 <TrueBrain> I doubt that is possible within the current design of OpenTTD :)
00:21:59 <mrfrenzy> only connection is that a few ticks after a train disappears on map a, it will appear on map b
00:22:08 <mrfrenzy> with some forced signals in the "toll both"
00:22:21 <mrfrenzy> so you can't make crashes until it enters your network atleast
00:22:35 <TrueBrain> SmatZ: anyway, the other related idea to this is a complete rewrite of OpenTTD :p I won't bother you with that ;) hehe :)
00:22:38 <mrfrenzy> or you could just have cargo dropoff and pickup at the borders
00:22:42 <mrfrenzy> but that wouldn't be as fun
00:22:53 <TrueBrain> moving things from one server to an other is relative easy
00:22:55 <SmatZ> TrueBrain: what about cargodest? signals? PBS? pathfinders?
00:22:59 <TrueBrain> having clients scroll one map over an other ... ;)
00:23:06 <TrueBrain> SmatZ: cargodest is a problem
00:23:15 <TrueBrain> signals is also synchronization
00:23:21 <TrueBrain> pathfinders .. hmm ..
00:23:42 <TrueBrain> never considered pathfinders
00:23:47 <TrueBrain> would require some trickery
00:24:37 <TrueBrain> there is no easy way in the current design ...
00:25:36 <SmatZ> also, the station catchemnt area and train length you mentioned is a limit :)
00:25:55 <TrueBrain> limits there will be, but that is a small price to pay ;)
00:26:03 <TrueBrain> but pathfinder .. hmm ..
00:26:06 <SmatZ> if there is a town growing, it would be tricky if it were at border of two servers... or four... or ten... for big cities :)
00:26:07 <TrueBrain> really no easy way around it :(
00:26:31 <TrueBrain> it means you need to delegate the pathfinder request through the whole grid of servers
00:26:42 <mrfrenzy> well you will just have to disallow cities spanning borders
00:26:42 <TrueBrain> a lot of caching :p
00:26:48 <mrfrenzy> after all it's about transport not simcity
00:27:10 <TrueBrain> SmatZ: okay, I give up, it is insane ;)
00:27:47 *** FauxFaux_ has joined #openttd
00:28:11 <TrueBrain> each server needs to keep a graph of all his border connections and stations of his part of the map, and their connection
00:28:21 <TrueBrain> including with length
00:28:38 <TrueBrain> but worst part: clients need to receive that info from the server
00:29:02 <TrueBrain> which is kind of fundamental to the current design .. that clients don't need to get data from the server to know which way a train goes ;)
00:29:47 <TrueBrain> so the 'quick' version of the MMO idea would be to make 'portals', where trains disapear, and magically appear in an other server (without a client being able to see that)
00:30:00 <TrueBrain> can be interesting for wwottdgd ;)
00:30:09 *** benjamingoodger has quit IRC
00:30:41 <SmatZ> world wide ottd game day
00:31:00 <Belugas> SmatZ is too good with the creatures
00:31:14 <SmatZ> Belugas: what creatures? :)
00:31:15 <TrueBrain> would mean all servers need to run the same GRFs :)
00:31:46 <Belugas> ho, by the way, SmatZ, have you worked on the TTDPMTENN ?that seemed like a hell of a feature to me :D
00:32:14 <SmatZ> Belugas: not at all :) what does that mean?
00:32:18 <TrueBrain> SmatZ: tnx for the feedback ;) Now I go sit in a corner think of other stupid things :p :)
00:32:48 <SmatZ> TrueBrain: hehehe, I get crazy ideas sometimes too... at least I was having them when I played OTTD more often ;)
00:32:58 <TrueBrain> so play OpenTTD more often :p
00:33:15 *** Eddi|zuHause2 has joined #openttd
00:33:40 * SmatZ should sync his 3D branch (after serveral months ;)
00:33:55 <TrueBrain> the one with the tunnels?
00:34:10 <SmatZ> yeah, and "flying" bridges :-D
00:34:15 <TrueBrain> that was so cool :)
00:34:46 <TrueBrain> hmm .. bah .. OpenTTD is a bad design to make such MMO ..
00:35:00 <TrueBrain> I always think it stinks that most MMOs are not really 'one big world' or what ever
00:35:07 <TrueBrain> they are just grids in which you clearly move
00:35:20 <TrueBrain> like EVE .. you see when you are going to an other server
00:35:50 <TrueBrain> SecondLife, same thing
00:35:59 <TrueBrain> (although slightly more transparent)
00:36:15 <SmatZ> ... so, no going from one server to another
00:36:17 *** benjamingoodger has joined #openttd
00:37:13 <TrueBrain> reminds me of Earth and Beyond ..
00:37:21 <TrueBrain> I wonder how far the open source replacement is by now
00:37:21 *** benjamin_ has joined #openttd
00:38:02 <SmatZ> I would like to finish it once...
00:39:08 <SmatZ> I need to code school works at first :-x
00:39:31 <TrueBrain> I am finally done with that :)
00:39:35 <TrueBrain> 2 whole weeks of nothingness
00:39:54 <TrueBrain> but also absolutely no idea what to do in those 2 weeks ... :p
00:40:25 <TrueBrain> waiting for Rubidium :(
00:40:40 <TrueBrain> I did some dancing today
00:40:48 <TrueBrain> some new moves were killing me!
00:41:05 <SmatZ> btw, I am going (with my girlfriend) to Holland this Summer (I hope :)
00:41:13 <SmatZ> hehe, do you still have to learn? :)
00:41:25 <SmatZ> I really enjoyed my dancing lessons :)
00:41:36 <SmatZ> but after years, I really forgot most of it :(
00:41:37 <TrueBrain> yeah ... doing one of the highest classes in dances like Foxtrot and ChaCha :p
00:41:52 <TrueBrain> today he put a stick between my legs
00:42:00 <TrueBrain> and I had to finish the part without dropping it
00:42:01 <benjamingoodger> I'm sure he did
00:42:13 <TrueBrain> was a bit insane ;)
00:42:47 <TrueBrain> but okay :) Girls .. sounds like a good plan yes :p
00:42:54 <TrueBrain> and when you come to Holland, don't forget to visit us :)
00:43:10 <SmatZ> :-) I sure won't ... if you will be home :)
00:43:16 <TrueBrain> I will make sure ;)
00:43:28 <SmatZ> I will tell you more when I know the date ;)
00:43:38 <TrueBrain> maybe we can arrange a little meet ;)
00:44:11 <TrueBrain> my roommates decided to have a party nextdoor, instead of in the living room
00:44:30 <TrueBrain> time to find my bed :)
00:44:34 <TrueBrain> tnx SmatZ, and have a good night all!
00:44:40 <SmatZ> good night, TrueBrain :)
00:44:52 <Belugas> won't be too hard, TrueBrain. follow the smell path ;)
00:45:06 <Belugas> then, surprise! the bed!!
00:45:24 <Belugas> in fact, /me goes down with wife and TV
00:51:07 *** Dred_furst has joined #openttd
00:55:50 *** Belugas has joined #openttd
00:55:50 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Belugas
01:15:04 *** Yeggstry is now known as Yeggzzz
01:15:37 *** DJNekkid_ has joined #openttd
01:39:33 *** De_Ghosty has joined #openttd
02:39:01 *** De_Ghosty has joined #openttd
03:03:57 *** De_Ghosty has joined #openttd
03:04:47 *** rubyruy has joined #openttd
03:08:39 *** FloSoft has joined #openttd
03:19:30 *** DJNekkid has joined #openttd
04:20:14 *** DJNekkid has joined #openttd
05:36:55 *** roboboy has joined #openttd
06:28:08 *** De_Ghosty has joined #openttd
07:36:27 <dihedral> TrueBrain, nice idea ;-)
07:36:58 <dihedral> only downside would be a desync or connection issue between servers!
07:39:16 *** Singaporekid has joined #openttd
07:58:30 <SpComb> threading support on the server would be a good first step...
08:00:21 *** Celestar has joined #openttd
08:00:21 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Celestar
08:00:55 *** DASPRiD|off is now known as DASPRiD
08:04:13 <SpComb> you would need to simplfy stuff like setting orders on stations that are on a different map for your trains...
08:05:06 <SpComb> yesterday's server-clustering silly-talk :)
08:06:47 <Moshe_> how do i register my nick and use ghost :\
08:07:29 *** Moshe_ is now known as Moshe
08:08:16 <Moshe> good its all setup now =)
08:08:27 <Moshe> dam am out of coffe. brb
08:11:30 <Moshe> is someoen is up to a network game? i gotta test my hebrew translations...
08:13:37 <Moshe> well ima check the servers list
08:13:48 *** Moshe is now known as Moshe-Away
08:14:32 *** Moshe-Away is now known as Moshe
08:14:53 *** Moshe is now known as Moshe-Away
08:16:57 <Moshe-Away> no one is using the nighlys :\
08:17:53 <Aali> Moshe-Away: try the auto-nightly
08:18:07 <Moshe-Away> says its needs password
08:18:44 <Moshe-Away> wierd the servers list in the site says it dosent locked
08:19:00 <Moshe-Away> and when i try to connect my client asks for a password
08:19:11 <Aali> it should not be password protected
08:19:20 <Aali> companies may be, though
08:19:22 <Moshe-Away> really maybe wrong one letmme try again
08:19:43 <Moshe-Away> ohh maybe thats was the problem
08:20:29 <Moshe-Away> i guess thats was it, thanks alot.
08:42:03 *** Moshe-Away_ has joined #openttd
08:45:41 *** Moshe-Away_ is now known as Moshe-Away
08:47:04 *** Moshe-Away is now known as Moshe
09:02:21 <Gekz> I read that as internet gyno :<
09:07:11 <Sacro> i'm no expert but i'll have a poke around
09:33:39 *** FauxFaux_ is now known as FauxFaux
09:39:30 *** DJNekkid has joined #openttd
10:00:26 <ccfreak2k> The ebaumsworld watermark makes it even funnier!
10:30:20 *** mortal` has joined #openttd
10:58:38 *** Moshe_ is now known as Moshe
11:05:56 *** Moshe__ has joined #openttd
11:07:37 *** Moshe__ is now known as Moshe
11:19:54 *** mucht_work has joined #openttd
11:26:28 *** Vikthor has joined #openttd
11:52:50 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
11:56:26 *** stillunknown has joined #openttd
12:50:35 <Forked> I didn't mean that.. sorry :\
12:50:56 <TrueBrain> okay, good enough :)
12:51:18 * Celestar pokes TrueBrain with a dictionary
12:51:30 <Forked> I thought that would be the boring thing to do, so I ignored it =p
12:51:44 * TrueBrain slaps Celestar with some Vista Manual
12:53:23 <petern> anyone familiar with xmpp?
12:53:35 <petern> or maybe just ejabberd
12:54:15 <TrueBrain> I once installed an other jabber server, but doubt that would help :)
12:54:30 <petern> well, it should be a generic thing
12:54:33 <TrueBrain> since when did this channel became a english-correct channel?
12:54:44 <petern> i want a system to send alerts to xmpp users
12:56:24 <TrueBrain> doesn't ejabberd allow you to do that?
12:56:56 <TrueBrain> can't remember which server I used, I just remember a nice 'Send All' button in the admin page, allowing you send a message to all registered users ;)
12:57:17 <Forked> "must... not.... abuse... hnnngh! .."
12:58:13 <TrueBrain> was used as post-commit hook in svn, very useful to get a message when there was a commit :)
12:58:31 <Celestar> What are the four stages of life?
12:58:41 <TrueBrain> dead born alive dead
12:58:42 *** lobster_MB has joined #openttd
12:59:47 <petern> how does that work from an automated system point of view? heh
13:00:14 <TrueBrain> Hehe, I just made a 'wget' command with correct cookies and POST values :p
13:00:21 <Celestar> 1) You believe in Santa Claus
13:00:27 <Celestar> 2) You don't believe in Santa Claus
13:00:30 <Celestar> 3) You are Santa Claus
13:00:34 <Celestar> 4) You look like Santa Claus
13:00:41 <TrueBrain> petern: I am sure there are simpler solutions nowedays :)
13:02:25 <petern> there's some kind of CAP/XMPP thing but
13:03:00 <petern> that seems to be only a protocol specification, rather than any particular implementation :o
13:04:10 <petern> didn't flyspray have jabber notification?
13:04:45 <petern> so how does that work...
13:06:07 <TrueBrain> the first google hit .. dunno :p
13:06:48 <petern> i'm obviously searching for the wrong thing :p
13:06:55 <petern> hmm, sendxmpp looks reasonable too
13:06:58 <TrueBrain> I typed: jabber notification
13:13:17 <petern> it doesn't work, though :o
13:15:58 <petern> hmm, seems to take ages to start up :o
13:16:07 <petern> that scritp works, sendxmpp doesn't
13:16:26 <petern> takes 5.5 seconds to send a single message :o
13:21:06 <petern> seems to be start up time
13:21:15 <petern> model name : Pentium MMX
13:22:01 <glx> way better than my 133MMX
13:22:22 <dihedral> you'd be better off buying a second hand pda :-P
13:23:27 <FauxFaux> Yeah, my first generation eee is significantly faster than that. In fact, I think my £30 "smart"phone is, by clock speed. :p
13:24:07 *** sigmund has joined #openttd
13:24:47 <FauxFaux> Heh, 200MHz OMAP 730.
13:25:20 <petern> hmm, i'm using an e71 now
13:30:41 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
14:02:29 <core> I've got a problem... so... well - I'm transporting passengers from city to city, so i place train stations so they are accepting passengers and I'm making a train transporting them... After some time I'm geting billans window and there is no incomming from this train. But when I click on train it says it gives me a lot of money. So I'm asking what is wrong!? Every else transports looks working fine... So just passengers. Sorry for my english.
14:02:55 <Aali> core: you're using transfer orders
14:07:38 <core> Thank you very much... And sorry for troubling you ^^'
14:09:49 <petern> i just cobbled together an email to xmpp system, heh
14:23:08 <TrueBrain> and I seem to fail to simply downsize an image ..
14:23:18 <TrueBrain> somehow that is segfaulting :(
14:32:58 * Celestar is looking forward to working on cargodest v2 :D
14:38:12 <jong> Celestar: what are your ideas there?
14:38:35 <Celestar> jong: route load balancing and a better generator for the destinations
14:40:17 <jong> Celestar: maybe... you want to look at (gimme a moment)
14:41:14 *** Belugas has joined #openttd
14:41:14 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Belugas
14:44:36 <jong> Celestar: it's part of the eclipse prolog package... one could make a graph (like you did), and given sources and sinks, determine the best possible way of moving through this network (given the capacities of the nodes themselves), it is possible to find these kind of 'schedules' with sth like Eclipse
14:45:51 <jong> Celestar: when scheduling passengers like this, they will also consider the relative resistance of certain modes of transport (for example, when there are just not enough trains moving the goods around) and take another route instead
14:46:35 <jong> Celestar: although it should be possible to solve it with such an edge finder, there is a better eclipse package available, but I can't seem to find it
14:55:48 *** DorpsGek has joined #openttd
14:55:48 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o DorpsGek
15:07:39 *** Progman has joined #openttd
15:18:42 <Eddi|zuHause2> hm... i'm afraid i skipped phase 3 of life... people keep telling me i look like santa claus
15:18:58 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause2: nobody defined the order in which they should come ;)
15:19:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> i thought the numbering implied a sequence
15:21:47 <Celestar> jong: I'll have a look in a few days
15:39:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> anyone ever considered stations as package facilities? like you put cargo into containers, and then the containers on wagons or ships, not caring about what is in the container?
15:41:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, yes, but you cannot make up complicated industry chains of "goods"
15:42:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> similarly, passengers should be divided into subgroups, so they'll be Passengers (Workers), Passengers (Tourists), ... instead of different cargos
15:43:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> (where workers and tourists have totally different mechanisms of choosing travelling targets)
15:43:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> (but eventually end up taking the same vehicle)
15:44:08 <Celestar> who cares about it being subgroups or different cargoIDs?
15:44:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> the vehicle cares
15:44:41 <Eddi|zuHause2> a vehicle refitted to tourists cannot transport workers? stupid idea
15:45:10 <Celestar> vehicles can take several kinds of cargo
15:45:23 <Eddi|zuHause2> not that i know of
15:45:36 <Celestar> some in the DBSet can, can't they?
15:45:41 <Celestar> like Ore and Coal or so
15:45:47 <Eddi|zuHause2> the only vehicles that can take two cargos are planes, and that is because they are two vehicles internally
15:45:54 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, but not at the same time
15:46:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> they have to be refitted to one or the other
15:47:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> just imagine a cargodest game with tourists... on each city network you have, you will have to run two kinds of trams, one refitted for passengers, and one refitted for tourists
15:48:13 <Celestar> it's easier to allow a vehicle just to carry multiple cargos I think
15:49:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> so you'll end up with a tram taking 20 passengers and 20 tourists, and if there are no tourists, but 40 passengers, they won't fill the seats?
15:49:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> not an ideal solution either
15:49:42 <Celestar> a tram can carry 40 worker or 40 tourists or any combination thereof
15:50:22 <Eddi|zuHause2> that might work, but then comes the next problem
15:50:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> an open wagon should be able to carry 30t coal or 30t ore, but not any combination
15:51:39 <Eddi|zuHause2> means, as long as it is empty, it should be able to load either, but as soon as 1t of coal is in it, it should only add coal
15:51:59 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
15:52:37 <Eddi|zuHause> next problem is newgrf, how do you extend the existing specification (refit masks) to handle multiple cargos simultaneously?
15:52:52 * Celestar raises a hand and points to peter
15:53:29 <Eddi|zuHause> surely, an open wagon refitted to grain should never load ore and coal
15:53:42 <Celestar> it's not Jet A-1, it's grain
15:54:20 <Eddi|zuHause> a wagon refitted for fuel oil should not load milk and v.v.
15:54:31 <Celestar> A wagon that carries Jet A-1 mustn't carry anything else, not even Jet A.
15:55:34 <Celestar> how about this. cargo of class CC_PASSENGER, CC_MAIL, CC_ARMOURED can be mixed, the rest not?
15:55:47 <TrueBrain> image = filterLatitudeScale(image);
15:55:47 <TrueBrain> image = filterReadRaw(image);
15:55:47 <TrueBrain> image = filterLatitude(image);
15:55:47 <TrueBrain> image = filterRescale(image, 1024);
15:55:51 <TrueBrain> woesh .. getting there :)
15:56:15 <Eddi|zuHause> imho, mail and goods should be able to get mixed for small branch lines
15:56:50 <Eddi|zuHause> the dbset simulates that by allowing the small goods wagon to be refitted to mail, but it just isn't the same...
15:57:22 <Eddi|zuHause> on that note... we should have railtypes with speedlimits
15:58:26 <Eddi|zuHause> 60, 80, 120, 160, 220, 350km/h [exponentially expensive]
15:58:45 *** lobster has joined #openttd
15:59:20 <Eddi|zuHause> each one in an electrified and unelectrified version
16:02:05 <TrueBrain> [latitudeScale] Initial region (left: 3.26, bottom: 51.00, width: 3.00, height: 3.00).
16:02:05 <TrueBrain> [readRaw] Reading region (left: 2.21, bottom: 51.00, width: 5.10, height: 3.00).
16:02:05 <TrueBrain> [readRaw] Loading 2 HMP file(s).
16:02:05 <TrueBrain> [latitude] Correcting image of size 3062x1800; new size will be 1800x1800.
16:02:05 <TrueBrain> [rescale] Rescaling image of size 1800x1800; new size will be 1024x1024.
16:02:06 <TrueBrain> [png] Writing image of size 1024x1024 to 'test.png'.
16:02:52 <Eddi|zuHause> you convert the resolution twice?
16:03:09 <TrueBrain> kind of; but not in the way you suggest
16:04:40 <TrueBrain> first one is a latitude scale, the other is a rescale
16:16:45 *** Singaporekid has joined #openttd
16:24:08 *** DorpsGek has joined #openttd
16:24:09 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o DorpsGek
16:25:02 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds a little much, indeed
16:25:19 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you took the wrong sea level?
16:25:52 <TrueBrain> you ahve a good point there
16:25:54 <TrueBrain> well, not in that way
16:26:01 <TrueBrain> but .. I scaled the normal heights from 0 to 15
16:26:05 <TrueBrain> where .. 0 is sea :p
16:26:08 <TrueBrain> should be 1 to 15 of course
16:26:35 <TrueBrain> tnx Eddi|zuHause :)
16:27:55 *** stillunknown has joined #openttd
16:28:57 <TrueBrain> that is how much of The Netherlands is below sea level :)
16:32:10 <TrueBrain> now I wonder if that file is already loadable in OpenTTD ..
16:32:39 <TrueBrain> I am afraid the palette size if wrong ..
16:34:13 <TrueBrain> haha, yes, it looks wrong :p Lol :)
16:47:29 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
16:48:49 * Rubidium is happy to see that he wouldn't drown ;)
16:49:22 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
16:53:03 *** |Jeroen| has joined #openttd
16:59:53 *** sigmund_ has joined #openttd
16:59:55 <TrueBrain> making a good map of The Netherlands is impossible :p
17:00:03 <TrueBrain> parts that should be water are just 1 M below sealevel
17:00:11 <TrueBrain> parts that shouldn't be water are 4 M below sealevel .. :p
17:06:17 *** DASPRiD is now known as DASPRiD|off
17:09:55 <Eddi|zuHause> use canals/rivers as seashore?
17:10:55 <TrueBrain> I still need a good database of rivers and stuff
17:11:00 <TrueBrain> same as country borders
17:11:03 <TrueBrain> last time I tried VMAP0
17:11:12 <TrueBrain> but .. that dataset has none-closed vectors
17:11:24 <TrueBrain> so you have 'leaking' rivers, flooding the whole country :p
17:25:36 <benjamingoodger> OSM would seem to have very poor river coverage
17:28:58 <FauxFaux> OSM's quality varies greatly by area, as with any user contributed data. :)
17:32:31 *** Mortal is now known as Guest788
17:39:25 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd
17:49:04 *** rubyruy has joined #openttd
17:55:31 <TrueBrain> OSM, online soccer manager...
17:56:25 <Prof_Frink> OpenStreetMap, SillyBrain
17:57:29 <TrueBrain> not really a database I can access in a simple way ..
17:58:35 <TrueBrain> ah, they do have an API ..
17:59:55 *** mortal is now known as Guest794
18:01:24 <FauxFaux> You can also download the entire thing as postgis or xml.
18:02:08 <TrueBrain> somehow I don't think download 306M elements is such a good idea ;)
18:04:44 <TrueBrain> wow, the API interfaces are VERY slow ... omg ..
18:06:35 <thingwath> ah, OSM, my favorite example of XML misuse
18:07:35 <TrueBrain> I can't find a method to localte a country ..
18:07:47 <TrueBrain> it can only locate towns or streets or .. who gives a damn about the rest :p
18:07:54 <thingwath> I don't know if there is any
18:09:14 <FauxFaux> I have to admit, it is hillarious xml misuse.
18:10:44 <thingwath> any better format for vector graphics?
18:11:04 <FauxFaux> Well, we are talking of xml abuse, svg, pdf, etc.
18:11:51 <FauxFaux> I'm mainly whining as I don't have anything that renders ps. :p
18:11:56 <Wolf01> hey devs, are you planning to have holidays for the entire week? I think I found another bug, or maybe it's the same of the other time which I thought it was fixed
18:12:18 <TrueBrain> damn, osm really is slow ..
18:12:19 <thingwath> there are like ten thousand lines, SVG viewer would just die, I think
18:12:24 <TrueBrain> exporting takes about 30 seconds ..
18:13:09 <thingwath> FauxFaux: it's just "map" of railway lines in the czech republic, not really interesting
18:13:14 <Wolf01> I'm trying to send ships to depots with "go to nearest depot" order, but seem it is really impossible to add it at any point of the list
18:13:14 <TrueBrain> any other databases for things like country borders, and rivers?
18:13:27 <TrueBrain> (and if possible: roads too ;))
18:13:33 <thingwath> and OSM doesn't offer much metadata
18:14:08 <TrueBrain> not really a database ;)
18:14:33 <TrueBrain> I like to auto-generate images
18:14:38 <TrueBrain> not ... well .. manually insert them :p
18:16:50 <thingwath> That world map doesn't contain any metadata :-/
18:17:13 <FauxFaux> Countries and the names of said countries, rite?
18:17:33 <thingwath> How can I know, that some path is border of some country?
18:18:44 <TrueBrain> so .. VMAP0 it has to be ..
18:21:56 <TrueBrain> worst part is, that it means I have to read into OGDI again :s
18:34:28 <TrueBrain> I hate bandwidth trottling .. then your download goes at 20 mbit/sec ... and all of a sudden falls to 1 kbit/sec ... then after N seconds it goes up to 20 mbit/sec again, etc etc
18:36:58 *** mortal is now known as Guest802
18:42:49 *** Yeggstry has joined #openttd
18:45:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r14667 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
18:45:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-12-11 18:45:04
18:45:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: arabic_egypt - 1207 fixed by khaloofah (1207)
18:45:24 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: indonesian - 30 fixed by fanioz (30)
18:45:24 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: malay - 21 fixed by Syed (21)
18:45:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: portuguese - 52 fixed, 3 changed by rmrebelo (55)
18:56:56 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
19:02:46 <TrueBrain> so Eddi|zuHause, how is your patch for your idea going? ;)
19:05:30 *** DASPRiD|off is now known as DASPRiD
19:09:05 *** Vikthor has joined #openttd
19:10:50 <Eddi|zuHause> as if i had time for that...
19:18:24 <Eddi|zuHause> very interesting...
19:21:07 <Eddi|zuHause> now that is cool ;)
19:21:47 <DorpsGek> Forked: Error: float division
19:22:23 * frosch123 should better not trust dorpsgek too much
19:23:50 <Forked> I keep reading "DropsGeek" .. and think it's possibly a bully-bot
19:29:45 <TrueBrain> out of diskspace .. brr
19:30:35 <TrueBrain> it requires 120+ GiB to work with mapgen .. lol :)
19:31:52 <TrueBrain> libogdi creates two binaries called 'example1' and 'example2'
19:35:47 <TrueBrain> how nice to see you again :)
19:36:17 <Yexo> been busy the last weeks, so not much time for openttd
19:44:07 *** Vikthor has joined #openttd
19:50:07 <Eddi|zuHause> argh... i hate databases...
19:50:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't tell it "just fucking do what i want"
19:51:42 <TrueBrain> Yexo: shut happens :)
19:55:25 <TrueBrain> grr .. ogdi can't read vmap0 data out of the box .. you need to rename files like 'cat' to 'cat.' ....
20:00:05 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
20:00:11 *** lobster_MB has joined #openttd
20:08:50 *** lobster has joined #openttd
20:11:10 *** Dred_furst has joined #openttd
20:13:01 <TrueBrain> and 'cat.' is an invalid name over CIFS .. sigh ...
20:34:39 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd
20:35:47 *** HerzogDeXtEr2 has joined #openttd
20:52:58 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
21:00:16 <Eddi|zuHause> why do i have ru.wikipedia in my browser history?
21:01:03 <Wolf01> better than having pr0n sites
21:01:05 <Sacro> Also, I thoguht OpenTTD had bitmaps in the VS project...
21:01:40 <Sacro> I don't see those in the VS project
21:02:05 <Eddi|zuHause> in some .rc file?
21:02:25 <Sacro> Hmm, there are two ico files
21:02:37 <Sacro> I want to work out how to copy bitmaps from the Resources into the binary dir
21:04:07 <Sacro> I can do it just fine in C#
21:06:47 *** Terkhen has joined #openttd
21:09:25 *** Nite_Owl has joined #openttd
21:52:25 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
22:06:32 <Sacro> glx: I've figured out the custom build stuff, but now fopen isn't working
22:06:42 <Sacro> fopen("file.bmp", "rb");
22:06:53 <Sacro> but it always returns null when debugging wtih VS
22:06:56 <glx> what do you want exactly?
22:07:03 <Sacro> but seems to laod fine when running the binary
22:07:10 <Sacro> which makes debugging impossible
22:12:53 *** FloSoft has joined #openttd
22:19:50 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc sqrt(120**2+62**2)
22:19:50 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 135.070352039
22:20:06 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc sqrt(120**2+62**2)/120*62
22:20:06 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 69.7863485536
22:21:50 <benjamingoodger> @calc meaning of life
22:21:50 <DorpsGek> benjamingoodger: Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
22:23:14 <Prof_Frink> @calc ultimate answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything
22:23:14 <DorpsGek> Prof_Frink: Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
22:23:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Prof_Frink: this is not the google calculator
22:24:29 <benjamingoodger> Eddi|zuHause: that's what I was *tut*ing about
22:25:04 <benjamingoodger> would make more sense to pipe it through the google
22:25:06 <Eddi|zuHause> that one is simple ;)
22:26:20 <benjamingoodger> @calc 12kg in lb
22:26:20 <DorpsGek> benjamingoodger: Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
22:26:47 <TrueBrain> stop toying with DorpsGek .. take it to a pm with him ..
22:27:02 <Eddi|zuHause> benjamingoodger: i'd presume it's getting piped into the eval() function of the next best scripting language available
22:27:11 <Prof_Frink> It's 10:27pm. Is that pm enough?
22:27:18 <benjamingoodger> heh, can I quote you on that?
22:27:20 <Eddi|zuHause> why waste net traffic contacting google?
22:28:02 <TrueBrain> and @calc is a wrapper around 'bc'
22:28:08 <benjamingoodger> why waste net traffic using a bot, and communicating this to everyone in the room, when you have that scripting language on localhost?
22:28:26 <Eddi|zuHause> because this channel is accessed faster?
22:29:01 <Eddi|zuHause> normally i'd use the maple bot on the other channel, but that is not available 24/7
22:29:17 <benjamingoodger> by speed, yes, but not by volume. the effort required to communicate a message to 106 computers is surely larger than that between 2
22:29:41 <Eddi|zuHause> but each client only sends one message
22:29:50 <Eddi|zuHause> the other traffic is for the irc servers to handle
22:30:10 <benjamingoodger> ok, then, let's divide by 2 and add on the number of IRC servers...
22:30:17 <benjamingoodger> hmm, still more than 2, I think
22:31:22 <Eddi|zuHause> you should differentiate: effort of me, effort of my computer/line, effort of the other's computer/line, and effort of the rest of the world
22:31:34 <Eddi|zuHause> [priority in that order]
22:32:29 <benjamingoodger> you know what, I think I'm just going to stop talking. seems easier
22:39:24 *** Nite_Owl_ has joined #openttd
22:40:50 *** Nite_Owl_ is now known as Nite_Owl
22:53:29 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
23:14:16 *** sigmund has joined #openttd
23:16:35 <svippery> glx: Does DorpsGek use Python syntax?
23:18:25 <Eddi|zuHause> svippery: if you read a few lines back, you'd read that it uses bc as backend
23:51:42 *** rubyruy has joined #openttd
continue to next day ⏵
