IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-11-28
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09:33:32 <Celestar> idiots. Air Berlin wants 25 EUR fuel surcharge from Munich to Hamburg.
09:33:53 <Celestar> the whole fuel for a single passenger costs hardly that much....
09:57:26 <Celestar> oh man. why are word processors that horrible in creating texts :P
09:57:53 <planetmaker> Celestar: otherwise they'd be called text processors. Not word processors ;)
09:58:54 <Celestar> it's ok as long as you have a single column document with no pictures or anything
10:01:12 <planetmaker> hehe, yes. LaTeX rulez ;)
10:01:32 <Celestar> yes. but those people want their abstracts in *.doc or *.rtf
10:01:41 <Celestar> and I don't have a decent latex-to-rtf converter
10:01:42 <planetmaker> but it's not good at placing images in an exact location either...
10:01:51 <planetmaker> Celestar: yeah, I know that problem...
10:01:57 <planetmaker> Send it in plain txt.
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10:07:11 <Rubidium> Celestar: plain text file, rename to .doc
10:07:36 <Rubidium> or use some exotic variant of *.doc
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10:25:02 <Eddi|zuHause> make the .tex into a .pdf, put the .pdf into the .doc as an embedded OLE Object?
10:26:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, you have to abuse these kind of rules to the furthest way possible ;)
10:26:45 <Celestar> like many of my colleagues who send screenshots in a word document :S
10:27:59 <Eddi|zuHause> as long as the screenshot is a BMP or a TIFF ;)
10:28:34 <Eddi|zuHause> why does my diploma thesis not write itself?
10:29:08 <Rubidium> because your thesis research about self writing theses is flawed
10:29:41 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, but then at least i'd have a basis to argue why it's flawed ;)
10:30:40 <Eddi|zuHause> scientifical studies do not have to yield "success" to get good grades ;)
10:31:14 <Eddi|zuHause> it wouldn't be science when we knew the results beforehand ;)
10:31:45 <Rubidium> yup.. as long as you describe exhaustively how you research is flawed you'll get a good grade
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10:35:10 <Celestar> I've already given out a 1.0 once for a thesis that discovered that some modelling approach failed and explained the reasons in detail.
10:36:41 <Rubidium> hmm... German grades? What would it be if graded from 1 (worst) to 10 (best) (6 = pass)
10:39:25 <Rubidium> interesting rounding... 2- -> 2.3, 2+ -> 1.7
10:51:02 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's perfectly well rounded from 2.333... and 1.6666... to 1 decimal
10:53:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: the really interesting question is why do you need 4 different shades of "not passed"?
10:56:13 <Celestar> Rubidium: 1.0 is the best (=
10:56:25 <Rubidium> probably the same reason that for beta courses (science stuff) to get a 6 you need 60% correct and for alpha courses (language stuff) you need 80% correct to get a 6 (i.e. pass). Why may you make twice the amount of errors for beta courses than for alpha courses?
10:56:54 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: it's mathematically consistent though ;)
10:57:08 <Rubidium> the Danish system amazes me even more
10:57:55 <Rubidium> highest grade ranges from -3 to 12 in 7 steps (according to Wikipedia)
11:01:31 <Rubidium> hmm... and I seem to be writing other things than I thought I wrote :(
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11:35:42 <petern> just managed to create a file called "*.blah" where ".blah" is a common ending for lots of files in the directory...
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11:45:14 <Celestar> the Bugatti Veyron GT will have a peak power of 1MW
11:45:32 <Celestar> hm .. an ICE 3 can reach the same velocty with about 9 MW.
11:45:40 <Celestar> yet it offers 400 seats instead of two.
11:46:01 <Celestar> mrfrenzy: the ICE 3 can go over 400km/h
11:46:12 <mrfrenzy> I'm talking about acceleration
11:46:32 <mrfrenzy> still, a roadcar with over 300hp is ridiculous
11:46:47 <Celestar> the Veyron at max speed empties a fuel tank in just under 12 minutes.
11:47:07 <Celestar> refuelling for 6 minutes every 12 minutes has a pretty shitty effect on your mean velocity :P
11:47:29 <Celestar> I doubt even a fighter jet manages to drain the tanks in 12 Minutes.
11:47:47 <Celestar> the Space Shuttle needs almost 9 :P
11:48:01 <Celestar> ok granted, it's tank is a bit larger...
11:48:50 <mrfrenzy> I think with afterburners it empties the tank in 10 minutes or so
11:48:58 <mrfrenzy> but then the speed is a lot higher than the veyron ;)
11:50:08 <Celestar> well the Veyron GT needs 2.4 seconds from 0 to 100km/h
11:50:15 <Celestar> and 2.2 seconds for 100km/h to 0.
11:52:08 <Celestar> a Piper Malibu Mirage has 6 seats, a top speed of 430km/h, the same price and a range of 2500kmh
11:53:16 <Celestar> and it can have a loo :P
11:54:05 <mrfrenzy> I doubt anyone gets the veyron for cost efficiency ;)
11:54:12 <Celestar> I'm not talk about cost
11:54:16 <Celestar> I'm talking about performance :P
11:54:40 <mrfrenzy> but I see you are doing openttd calculations ;) amount of cargotiles per day vs investment and running
11:54:43 <Celestar> and, I go 430km/h in most airspaces. On highways, it get's a _little_ difficult
11:55:47 <Celestar> If you wanna go from A to B FAST (if the distance is over like 100km), a car is usually not a good way to do so
11:56:31 <mrfrenzy> yep we noticed that, going from jonkoping sweden to berlin, six people, is cheaper by plane than it is sharing a car
11:56:47 <Celestar> if I want bragging rights, I get an A380 for personal transportation not a Veyron
11:57:30 <mrfrenzy> the A380 is just damn hard to bring to parties :P
11:57:50 <Celestar> what good is that? You have the party IN the A380.
11:58:43 <Celestar> and if you throw people outta the party if you don't like them, you can be pretty sure they'll never return again (=
11:59:09 <mrfrenzy> that's an added feature I would have liked a few times :P
11:59:20 <thingwath> is it possible to throw out things from plane while in air?
11:59:32 <Celestar> possible, and allowed
11:59:42 <Celestar> you just have to make sure it doesn't cause damage on the ground :P
11:59:43 <mrfrenzy> how do you think parachute jumpers get out?
12:00:04 <Celestar> they diffuse through the hull
12:00:16 <Celestar> thingwath: there are in-flight emergency exits.
12:00:28 <Celestar> at least the prototype of the Do328 had one
12:01:06 <thingwath> I can imagine throwing out things from bomber :-)
12:01:43 <Celestar> er .. price for Munich-Hamburg round trip on the ICE went down from over 400 EUR to 137 EUR O_o
12:03:01 <Celestar> that's not bad for an 800km trip
12:04:22 <mrfrenzy> It still puzzles me though that train is more expensive than air
12:04:34 <Celestar> mrfrenzy: why does it puzzle you
12:04:57 <mrfrenzy> the running costs should be lower, at the same time as it takes more pax
12:05:06 <Celestar> infrastructure cost for trains grow superlinearly with distance. infrastructure cost for planes are basically independent of distance.
12:05:11 <mrfrenzy> electricity is a hell of a lot more efficient
12:05:48 <Celestar> mrfrenzy: overall efficiency of an electric train is comparable to a modern airplane.
12:06:41 <Rubidium> Celestar: that depends on the distance and the cargo ;)
12:06:48 <mrfrenzy> ooh, it was a lot more efficient than I ghought
12:07:00 <Celestar> Rubidium: distance from about 500-800km, cargo is human beings.
12:07:07 <Celestar> mrfrenzy: what is more efficient than you thought?
12:07:25 <Celestar> mrfrenzy: most modern power plants are modified jet engines, you know (=
12:07:28 <mrfrenzy> I thought it was similar to internal combustion engines
12:08:27 <Celestar> internatl combustion engines are not bad, provided you run them at around rated power.
12:08:44 <Celestar> they're horrible in part-loads
12:08:48 <mrfrenzy> well that is the problem
12:08:56 <mrfrenzy> you only run them at rated load for 1% of the time
12:09:08 <Celestar> but jet engines are different
12:09:17 <Celestar> better in part load, and more often run at rated output
12:10:00 <mrfrenzy> yeah, I assume it has been calculated at which speeds you get best fuel economy
12:10:55 <Celestar> mrfrenzy: the thing is, what one has to understand with fixed-wing aircraft is that drag does not increase with v².
12:11:37 <mrfrenzy> this is all very interesting, but I have to go back to work now ;) laters
12:17:42 <Celestar> why doesn't some people understand the GPL
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12:34:20 <Ammler> Celestar: there should be a cc license like gpl
12:35:06 <Ammler> without the warranty thing.
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13:03:21 <Celestar> Abstract finished :P
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13:13:13 <Celestar> rtfs and images are basically incompatible, aren't they?
13:13:47 <Rubidium> yes, unless they are aa-ified images
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14:53:08 <nicfer> question, is possible to reduce the amount of farms fields?
14:53:37 <planetmaker> answer: no. Unless you modify source code.
14:53:56 <planetmaker> (or build on the space where they are)
14:54:26 <nicfer> oh, like adding 'fields' to other industries right?
14:58:20 <yorick> adding them to other industries is a newgrf feature
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14:59:57 <nicfer> so it would be possible a grf that adds fields to all primary industries, if you made the graphics?
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15:01:07 <Ammler> nicfer: you can only enable/disable it, nothing more
15:03:17 <Ammler> if you would change the graphics, you would also change it for the farms, afaik.
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15:05:25 <nicfer> I'll focus now on changing the temperate forest with the tropical 'sawmill'
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15:12:38 <nicfer> Ammler's solution is good
15:24:05 <nicfer> one question, is there some alpha release of the open sound effects project?
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15:47:25 <Ammler> DASPRiD: use /msg, else someone else then pm might snatch it... ;-)
15:48:29 <planetmaker> :) Ok, when I'm home :)
15:48:57 <DASPRiD> nah you can listen to it at work
15:49:16 <DASPRiD> thats a pretty awesome cover
15:49:35 <DASPRiD> my cover is just half as good as that one :(
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18:48:26 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r14640 /trunk/src/lang/ (10 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:48:26 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-11-28 18:47:35
18:48:26 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: bulgarian - 1 fixed by Ar4i (1)
18:48:26 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: catalan - 1 fixed by arnaullv (1)
18:48:26 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: croatian - 43 fixed by knovak (43)
18:48:27 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: esperanto - 3 fixed by Athaba (3)
18:48:27 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: estonian - 8 fixed by t2t2 (8)
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19:13:56 <DJNekkid> how come wagons dont dissappear when they expire? and yes, "never expire"-setting is off
19:19:55 <DJNekkid> wow, lively here today
19:20:37 <Patrick> DJNekkid: they just get obsolete
19:20:47 <Patrick> and don't whine when you don't get an instant answer
19:21:38 <yorick> you shouldn't answer questions you know get asked
19:21:50 <yorick> and then you get those questions and instant answers ;)
19:22:28 <DJNekkid> Patrick: well, sorry about that ... however... i'm the author of the 2cc set (in case you didnt know), but the wagons that use extended date format (action0 prop 2A) dont seem to go away as they should
19:23:42 <DJNekkid> hehe, didnt think so ;)
19:24:27 <yorick> you're the spiritual descendant of the newgrf gods, you should know...
19:25:42 <SuomiPoika> Reason: Assertion failed at ..\src\spritecache.cpp:492: sprite < _spritecache_items
19:25:47 <SuomiPoika> what does that mean?
19:26:28 <DJNekkid> my guess is a bug in the nightlies
19:31:07 <SuomiPoika> is there going to be translated version of ottd homepage?
19:34:00 <SpComb> "This privacy statement is based on an original template created by website-contracts.co.uk and distributed by freenetlaw.com"
19:36:27 <Aali> SuomiPoika: did you file a bug report about the font issue?
19:38:41 <petern> DJNekkid, ottd has never expired wagons
19:38:59 <DJNekkid> petern: so it seems...
19:39:10 <DJNekkid> i mean, that is my conclution as well
19:39:48 <DJNekkid> i did some testing playing with some numbers...
19:39:56 <DJNekkid> is that possible to add tho?
19:43:17 <DJNekkid> or is it possible to use some kind of var2 to remove them... hmm
19:56:12 <Aali> does the close airports patch have any chance of hitting trunk?
19:58:03 <planetmaker> Aali: if the gui is reworked, maybe
19:58:07 <SuomiPoika> aali i didnt make bug report.. im too dum :D
20:00:09 <Aali> SuomiPoika: heh, just take a screenshot, type in something along the lines of "finnish uses this unreadable font for no reason" and you'll be fine
20:01:09 <Aali> planetmaker: whats wrong with the current gui? (from the devs standpoint, personally i dont like it either)
20:01:55 <planetmaker> Aali: I remember that someone somewhen mentioned that a "close airport" button for train stations and bus stops is somehwat... not needed and sub-standard
20:02:09 <planetmaker> and I agree with that :)
20:02:37 <Aali> and the button is more than a little too big
20:02:55 <planetmaker> You're going to tackle it?
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20:05:58 <Aali> err, probably not unless there's a real interest from the devs to include it
20:06:49 <planetmaker> I've no good idea how to re-design the gui though. A 2nd button line is needed in that case.
20:09:21 <Aali> a small graphical button could do it, saves you the extra line, too
20:10:01 <Aali> not as obvious and easy to find, but if you know what you're looking for it should be okay
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20:23:26 <planetmaker> hm... I just got an idea... how to seperate that stuff...
20:23:42 <planetmaker> not about the button, though, but that's the minor worry actually IMO
20:25:48 <planetmaker> not really. close airports
20:25:55 <planetmaker> but very handy for IS...
20:27:37 <fjb> Ah, ok, guessing it from 4 lines of text was not that easy as I thought.
20:28:30 <planetmaker> hm... given stationID... how do I determin whether it has an airport or not?
20:31:27 <planetmaker> that's part of station.
20:31:34 <planetmaker> Is there GetStation(stationID)
20:35:25 <nicfer> erm, are there any newgrf that does something similar to the OCS, aka putting all the primary industries that aren't in temperate in there and making secondary industries accepting their cargos?
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20:38:03 <frosch123> when you want to code it yourself you have to take a look at Action0 for cargos and industries. (and the always needed Action8)
20:38:03 <planetmaker> Thx a lot, frosch123, petern - now it works. I guess I should more often just try on good chance the obvious function name for such conversions ;)
20:39:10 <frosch123> planetmaker: hint, those GetXXX functions are created by the create pool macro. So they work all the same :)
20:40:01 <planetmaker> ah :) Another thing learnt... :) Macros are still a mystery to me... poking in the fog ;)
20:40:32 <nicfer> because I find current industry replacement newgrfs kinda unfitting to the original ones
20:49:11 <nicfer> hmmm, wasn't Korenn working on it?
20:51:00 <batti5> hi all, i finally got timidity to work with ottd
20:57:44 <nicfer> batti5 = jasperthecat right?
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21:13:27 <nicfer> when the towngrowth challenge becomes complete, would be available the industry layout as a separate component so it can be used outside of that mod¿
21:14:13 <DJNekkid> isnt 15k population a bit small to be a capital-class city?
21:14:42 <planetmaker> the close airport button now only appears, if the station has an airport :)
21:15:00 <DJNekkid> atleast, 15k5c as max size...
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21:38:48 <Aali> planetmaker: couldn't you just hide the button when the station doesn't have an airport? duplicating the whole station window to make some minor changes isn't very pretty :P
21:39:20 <planetmaker> That's - as I understand it - not possible by design.
21:39:46 <planetmaker> you have to supply a widget list upon creation. Thus the widget list needs to be doubled.
21:40:01 <planetmaker> And that's the only thing which I double.
21:40:18 <planetmaker> The widget arangement.
21:40:23 <Aali> sure, but you can still hide widgets in the OnPaint method
21:41:02 <planetmaker> oh, yes? I didn't know that. But then, the window size is different...
21:41:02 <Aali> there will be an empty spot where the button is, of course
21:41:08 <frosch123> planetmaker: take a look at the QueryWindows
21:41:16 <planetmaker> Which again looks a bit funny, Aali
21:41:23 <frosch123> some of them have a reset to default button, some do not
21:41:34 <yorick> planetmaker: SetWidgetHiddenState
21:41:55 <planetmaker> hm... I'll look at it... :)
21:42:06 <Aali> can you resize widgets in the OnPaint method?
21:42:09 <planetmaker> frosch123: which query windows? E.g. land tile query? or...?
21:42:36 <planetmaker> Aali: yes... but the button has text. It would look ugly
21:42:50 <yorick> you can redraw the text
21:42:58 <frosch123> planetmaker: text input windows
21:43:49 <Aali> a small graphical button that fits in with the other buttons could be squeezed in for airports and hidden for other stations
21:44:05 <Aali> like a stop sign or whatever
21:44:21 <planetmaker> Aali: my idea was to make a 2nd button line with the same buttons as road/ship/train/air - but with the functionality to close that transportation type
21:44:38 <planetmaker> (like those buttons which supply the vehicle lists)
21:44:42 <yorick> just add a resizing button and hide it if there's not an airport
21:44:59 <Aali> i thought about that too, but closing other station types doesn't make much sense
21:45:04 <planetmaker> yorick: there is already a resizing button.
21:45:11 <planetmaker> Aali: it does with IS ;)
21:45:25 <yorick> Aali: I said hide it ;)
21:46:13 <Aali> well, the problem is that it affects the whole station
21:46:26 <yorick> make a "close airport"
21:46:31 <Aali> if you could close individual road stops/platforms that would be great
21:46:41 <Aali> but thats not going to happen
21:46:47 <planetmaker> Aali: there's a removal tool... ;)
21:48:05 <fjb> And signals (for closing platforms).
21:50:07 <Aali> I don't see how that makes the station-closing feature more useful
21:51:03 <Aali> the problem with airports is that you can't stop aircraft in the air, the other vehicles don't have this problem
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21:51:21 <planetmaker> Aali: again: with IS you have ;)
21:52:02 <planetmaker> for road & ship you do. Not for train where you can control trains on your tracks
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21:52:30 <Aali> you can still stop your RVs and block the road (if you don't own the road)
21:53:21 <planetmaker> sure, you can do that :)
21:54:15 <Aali> and ships? dont know, dont care :P
21:55:37 <ccfreak2k> Make 'em queue in a lock?
21:56:15 <fjb> No, ships pass through each other like ghost ships.
21:56:35 <Aali> since no-one can own water i guess you could just raise land around your docks
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22:01:33 <fjb> What happens if you blow up all the water around the ship?
22:02:07 <yorick> it floods back from the shiptile
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22:03:19 <fjb> So you have to blow up the ship too.
22:05:19 <fjb> But there is a submarine in the game.
22:08:22 <fjb> Ofcourse. What else is a black submarine for?
22:09:06 <nicfer> I know how to block a ship
22:09:24 <nicfer> just cage it inside some ship depots
22:10:03 <Aali> see, that is some creative thinking
22:10:13 <nicfer> I've seen it in some mp servers
22:10:46 <nicfer> so, say thanks to unfair people
22:13:08 <Aali> total asshole tactic - yes, unfair - not really
22:14:31 <nicfer> one question, do ttdpatch devs help in the development of openttd?
22:16:04 <nicfer> as well as the inverse method right?
22:16:27 <frosch123> some patchdevs even contributed patches
22:16:33 <frosch123> I do not know about the reverse
22:17:08 <Rubidium> frosch123: pointing out bugs/inconsistencies etc
22:17:17 <Eddi|zuHause> 80% of the development of openttd were driven by the fact that ttdpatch already had feature XYZ
22:17:36 <frosch123> yes, I meant noone wrote code for ttdp
22:17:49 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: lately it seems to be shifting the other way around
22:18:03 <Eddi|zuHause> no sane person writes code in assembler :p
22:18:28 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: I have read NoAI is as big as newgrf. Haven't checked myself though
22:18:30 <Eddi|zuHause> well... but probably s/in assembler// :p
22:19:05 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: no sane person writes good code ;p
22:19:12 <Aali> NoAI is 1.3MB in patch format
22:19:36 <Eddi|zuHause> are you going to deny your insanity?
22:20:03 <nicfer> madness? this is sparta!!!
22:20:11 <fjb> I am writing code. So I am.
22:20:12 <nicfer> lol, I couldn't resist
22:21:33 <Rubidium> frosch123: linecount of newgrf* is about 15000, linecount of ai/*.?pp and ai/api/*.?pp is about 15500 (that is without generated code)
22:22:30 <Eddi|zuHause> but newgrf* had a longer development time
22:24:06 <Rubidium> that's probably debateable depending on the definition of longer
22:25:23 <Eddi|zuHause> most code metrics are debatable...
22:26:12 <Eddi|zuHause> and newgrf* is not the only thing that was driven by prior TTDP development
22:26:19 <fjb> The town growth challenge looks like fun. I just saw it today while looking for the rail and road type pages.
22:26:37 <Rubidium> one code metric I'm quite sure of: lines of comment per lines of real code ratio of NoAI is bigger than newgrf*
22:26:46 <Eddi|zuHause> is "the town growth challenge" anything more than a wiki page?
22:27:18 <fjb> In the beginning was a wiki page...
22:32:32 <fjb> Is there a testable version of the rail and road types?
22:38:12 <Rubidium> most likely there is; petern does usually not make mockups
22:40:06 <fjb> I know that he doesn't make mockups. The question was if it is in a testable state yet.
22:41:52 <fjb> Hm, I had a link to Peters directory with some patches (e.g. bridges over low platforms) but I don't find it anymore.
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23:24:05 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: i can find it.
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23:28:25 <Sacro> long time no see, how are you?
23:28:26 <meush> it's been a long time Sacro
23:29:27 <Sacro> ooh, i'm still in hull, at uni
23:30:09 <meush> is it in engineering faculty? would you mind sharing a bit info with me?
23:30:19 <meush> I'm still a bit confused about universities here
23:30:45 <Sacro> errm.. not sure what to say
23:30:51 <Sacro> is in the science faculty
23:31:10 <meush> CS is computer science, isn't it?
23:32:13 <meush> do you deal with hardware, or do you rather write software?
continue to next day ⏵