IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-11-11
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00:01:25 <ReiNDeer> well, im gonna ask them to install the 'libSDL-1.2.so.0' package, you recon that is all that is missing for the binary to start in -D mode?
00:04:15 <Rubidium> there are likely other libraries that are missing on the dedicated server
00:04:49 <Rubidium> but have you tried making a dedicated server binary on your ubuntu box?
00:06:55 <ReiNDeer> yaeh, might be, i wonder what "out of the ordinary" binaries it will need. I have not tried to compile on my ubuntu, but wouldn't the gameserver still need the libs i have, inorder to work?
00:07:23 <ReiNDeer> "out of the ordinary" libraries..of course.
00:13:33 <Yexo> + /* 8 = scrollbar */ <- shouldn't that be 7?
00:14:07 <Yexo> SVM_LAST_YEAR <- SVM? not SVT?
00:14:58 <Yexo> + // update goods counters <- still using the wrong comment style here
00:16:08 <Yexo> + this->vscroll.cap =(this->height / <- missing space after =
00:17:12 <Yexo> and I'd use something like this->vscroll.cap = (this->widget[list].bottom - this->widget[list].top) / this->resize.step_height
00:19:26 <Yexo> + if (y < max_draw_height) // no overflowing content <- missing { I think
00:20:51 <Yexo> + DrawString(16, y, STR_303D, TC_FROMSTRING);
00:20:58 <Yexo> Either use {} there or put it on one line
00:21:16 <ln-> "Jon Ross, who wrote the original version of SimCity for Windows 3.x, told me that he accidentally left a bug in SimCity where he read memory that he had just freed. Yep. It worked fine on Windows 3.x, because the memory never went anywhere. Here's the amazing part: On beta versions of Windows 95, SimCity wasn't working in testing. Microsoft tracked down the bug and added specific code to Windows 95 that looks for SimCity. If it finds SimCity running, it runs t
00:21:23 <ln-> ... allocator in a special mode that doesn't free memory right away."
00:23:41 <rortom> also, diff file updated :)
00:23:57 <Yexo> {} also for the changes in economy.cpp
00:24:45 <Yexo> and I still think it's better to add CARCAT_NUM as last member of the CargoCategories enum, and rename it to CARCAT_END. That's how it's done in other enums
00:26:12 <Yexo> that's all for now. I'll try your patch tomorrow
00:27:01 <Yexo> Coding style can be a nightmare to get right at first :p
00:27:11 <rortom> im just so used to my style :\
00:29:14 <ReiNDeer> i got it to compile on my ubuntu, copied the openttd bin to gameserver and it runs! started a server and joined, im in! thx for the --enable-dedicated switch from SpComp..and others too for support
00:30:17 <rortom> Yexo: uint32 goods_counter[CARCAT_END][NUM_CARGO];
00:30:24 <rortom> that looks strange then
00:30:46 <Yexo> rortom: indeed, so I'm not sure if that is better
00:30:57 <Antdovu> two enum entries with same values?
00:31:04 <Yexo> Still I suggest you add it to the enum, and whether you call it carcat_end or carcat_num is up to you
00:31:39 <rortom> looks better > uint32 goods_counter[NUM_CARCAT][NUM_CARGO];
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00:34:46 <ReiNDeer> Ill be happy to offer this dedicated server for all openttd gamers and our clanmates, here in Finland and europe! Now to sleep, got to unplug..
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01:52:50 <Sebastian_Winterstein> guten Morgen jemand Deutschsprachiges noch auf hier?
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09:09:54 <dih> Sebastian_Winterstein: as there are people here who speak german, this is still an english channel
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09:43:59 <planetmaker> hehe. good morning at 2am is... daring.
09:44:58 <dih> anybody here with a cargodest build for os x (ppc)
09:45:31 <dih> or would someone mind driggering the compile farm so that os x builds are available this time? ;-)
09:45:38 <planetmaker> which reminds me that I still need to fix my boost installation :S
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13:40:41 <DorpsGek> dih: TrueBrain was last seen in #openttd 6 days, 16 hours, 15 minutes, and 33 seconds ago: <TrueBrain> I hate youtube
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13:53:04 <nicfer> I want an enclosed instruction book for ottd :(
13:57:35 <planetmaker> you have the wiki.openttd.org
13:58:12 <Rubidium> nicfer: the openttd binary itself is in effect an instruction 'book'
14:00:03 <Antdovu> an ever-changing one and not very useful to most :P
14:01:00 <Antdovu> but it helped me find out all double-click actions...
14:04:42 <Antdovu> philosophical question: why shouldn't company A be able to upgrade a road bridge owned by company B?
14:04:49 <DorpsGek> Sacro: SpComb was last seen in #openttd 14 hours, 12 minutes, and 56 seconds ago: <SpComb> I think there used to be downloadable dedicated binaries, but they phased them out
14:07:35 <planetmaker> Antdovu: why shouldn't I be able to place my palace where your home is?
14:08:43 <Rubidium> yeah, lets upgrade Antdovu's house ;)
14:08:56 <Rubidium> painting it bright yellow and pink is an upgrade, right?
14:09:18 <Antdovu> can I have a unicorn as well? L)
14:09:21 <Yexo> planetmaker: if I will be the owner of the new palace you build at the place my house is I wouldn't have any problem with that :p
14:09:56 <planetmaker> Rubidium: you forgot the neon greeen dots.
14:10:01 <Aali> Yexo: you should probably agree on a definition of "palace" first :P
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14:10:44 <planetmaker> Aali: you're mean. I would have liked to comply with my then-chosen definition :)
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14:12:26 <Yexo> still the question from Antdovu stands, it's already possible to upgrade bridges owned by towns. In that case the town is still the owner of the new bridge
14:14:30 <Aali> well, towns never actually use bridges, so what do they care?
14:14:55 <Yexo> why would you care if I upgraded your bridge to a faster one?
14:14:56 <Aali> i would be pissed if someone messed with my bridges, for any reason
14:15:23 <Aali> what if i dont want a fast bridge?
14:16:31 <Yexo> why wouldn't you want a fast bridge?
14:16:33 <Antdovu> actually there is a problem with slow bridges: you might not be able to make a new road that is shorter than the current one
14:16:57 <Aali> because i like the way it looks? (not kidding)
14:17:54 <Yexo> Aali: think about it. The only situation someone else would want to upgrade your bridge is in case your bridge is too slow for their vehicles. If they'd want to mess with the way it looks they could also build silly rails under it or somehting like that
14:18:15 <Aali> its my bridge, if you want a faster bridge you can either build one yourself or ask me to upgrade it
14:18:23 <Aali> yes, its too slow _for them_
14:18:59 <Aali> even if their intent is good i might not like it
14:19:20 <planetmaker> I'm on Aali's side :)
14:19:58 <Yexo> I'm too. Good point you made there Aali ;)
14:20:27 <Antdovu> Aalis point was the only one I came up by myself as well
14:21:52 <Antdovu> but if in most cases you don't care whether somebody upgrades your bridge then it would be a good idea to let people upgrade it by default
14:22:26 <Antdovu> there are lots of ways to be an asshole in a multiplayer game
14:23:21 <Doorslammer> I can think of 8 maximum :P
14:24:10 <Antdovu> depends on the granularity
14:24:23 <Sacro_> lbw is a fun one to try
14:24:55 <Doorslammer> Leg before wicket?
14:26:45 <Antdovu> I have no idea how it applies to ottd :P
14:27:59 <Sacro_> there lies the challenge
14:28:15 <Aali> Antdovu: if you really can't talk to anyone who has access to the company that owns the bridge, you're probably better off not using those roads
14:29:33 <Antdovu> (2:16:27 PM) Antdovu: actually there is a problem with slow bridges: you might not be able to make a new road that is shorter than the current one
14:29:43 <Aali> frankly, the only scenario i see where this could be a problem is multi-lingual servers where someone decides to build a fuckload of slow bridges at some really important chokepoint
14:30:41 <Aali> if you can't build a better route, just use the slow bridges
14:31:28 <Aali> if your fast RVs lose money that way, maybe you should stick to slower ones
14:31:34 <Antdovu> I could build a *faster*, but not *shorter* route
14:31:45 <Aali> its not like you have to have the fastest bridge to make money
14:31:51 <planetmaker> issue a go via order and you're don, Antdovu
14:36:26 <Antdovu> yeah, fortunately that's possible in trunk :)
14:36:47 <planetmaker> I don't even consider the stable versions :P
14:37:25 <Antdovu> I use stable versions to play my huge network games
14:37:42 <Antdovu> PBS seems to have made it slower
14:37:44 <planetmaker> why would you want to do that, Antdovu ?
14:37:54 <Antdovu> and I was already near the limit before
14:38:23 <planetmaker> you already switched off full animation and so on?
14:38:49 <planetmaker> do you use ships extensively?
14:39:37 <Antdovu> ~1850 trains, 2048^2 map
14:39:49 <planetmaker> he. That's big, yes.
14:40:08 <Antdovu> including a station with 6 tracks in, 6 out :P
14:40:25 <planetmaker> Well. I had that on 1k^2 :)
14:40:45 <Antdovu> mine was almost fully used
14:40:52 <Antdovu> had problems in intersections
14:41:45 <Antdovu> 2 straight, 1 turning
14:42:38 <planetmaker> I hope my memory serves me well with the ore drop size :P
14:45:04 <Antdovu> mine was a monolith, 50 platforms, each length 7
14:45:50 <planetmaker> Yeah, coal can jam a whole network, once the mines are up running
14:46:34 <planetmaker> actually one of the reasons we nearly stopped doing coal as our money maker.
14:47:52 <Antdovu> you know what is crazier?
14:48:19 <Antdovu> single source, single destination
14:49:40 <Antdovu> just tried, even without full detail/animation it stays on 49-50% of a dual-core cpu
14:50:09 <planetmaker> OpenTTD only uses one core.
14:50:17 <planetmaker> irrespective how many you have.
14:50:34 <Antdovu> that's the problem ;)
14:50:49 <planetmaker> I'll have a look at your game later. This computer certainly won't play it.
14:51:18 <glx> 2048^2 and many vehicles requires a very fast computer that's all
14:51:37 <Antdovu> well, you have a fast computer, just ottd won't use it ;)
14:52:13 <glx> multi core is not always faster than single core
14:52:45 <glx> I have a 3800+ and it's only 2GHz
14:52:50 <Antdovu> but it easier to get 8 core CPU than a single core one that is 8 times as fast
14:52:59 <planetmaker> The problem is parallelisation and then synchronization.
14:53:30 <Antdovu> yeah, I have followed the discussions about that
14:53:51 <Aali> Antdovu: that game is horrible in my eyes :P
14:54:10 <glx> it's only "faster" for applications designed to use multiple cores (and openttd is not (and won't be) one of those)
14:54:18 <Aali> runs fine on my computer though, not even terribly slow fully zoomed out
14:54:56 <Aali> Antdovu: copy&pasted junctions all over, leveled terrain etc, yeah
14:55:16 <Aali> i'm not saying you shouldn't play like that, i just like a little more challenge ;)
14:55:36 <Antdovu> well, in my case the challenge is getting the network the handle the load
14:55:37 <glx> it's more fun to play around the terrain
14:56:28 <Antdovu> and of course it has the problem of too much track, I don't get 3x bandwidth for my 3 track layouts
14:57:47 <Antdovu> by the way: it is 300k cargo per 3 months without using goods
14:58:16 <Antdovu> I could get a huge increase if I handled goods
14:59:08 <Avdg> i've found a bug in the orders...
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15:01:13 <Aali> Avdg: good for you, care to tell the rest of us?
15:01:30 <Avdg> if i use the order 'go to nearest depot and refit', it wouldn't refit...
15:02:09 <Avdg> I'll report it at the bugtracker now...
15:05:08 <keyweed> that's erh. quite a junction.
15:05:31 <Aali> and its not even finished :/
15:05:46 <keyweed> i'm actually tired of making huge junctions
15:06:03 <keyweed> i simplified my network architecture so there is less need for them
15:06:36 <Aali> petern: way to go there with the constructive criticism :P
15:07:07 <keyweed> well. as for ugliness. it isn't symmetrical and lacks any kind of estheticly pleasing extra's :P
15:07:51 <Aali> its not supposed to be symmetric
15:08:29 <Avdg> that will be hard anyway... never saw an isometric version of that junction...
15:08:56 <Aali> it could never be symmetric, there's a different number of tracks going in each direction
15:09:08 <Avdg> the only way is crossing...
15:09:24 <Aali> and all tracks are not connected, nor should they be
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15:10:05 <keyweed> the problems is, efficient usually isn't pretty and pretty usually isn't efficient
15:10:49 <Eddi|zuHause> some of my junctions are pretty and somewhat efficient
15:11:31 <Eddi|zuHause> and in many cases without using bridges ;)
15:11:58 <keyweed> well. show us the magic
15:12:06 * keyweed loves openttd screenshots
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15:12:12 <Doorslammer> Bottle glass, glass bottle...
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15:12:28 <Eddi|zuHause> of course they don't have nearly the amount of throughput as a junction like in the picture...
15:12:32 <keyweed> regular expressions, that's magic
15:12:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Klein bottles are magic ;)
15:14:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i had a pre-PBS savegame somewhere...
15:15:58 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%202.%20Jan%201972.sav
15:16:39 <qball> I loved playing with pbs
15:16:39 <keyweed> hmpfz. not allowed to run openttd here at work
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15:17:07 <petern> when it didn't work too well
15:17:21 <glx> qball: please note it's not the same PBS as the very ole version
15:17:21 * qball hasn't been here in years?
15:17:36 <qball> can still multiple trains enter station
15:17:44 <petern> well yeah, it's pbs :p
15:17:58 <petern> hmm, it's been there for 3 months
15:18:17 <qball> haven't played unstable for a long long long time
15:18:24 <glx> the rule is easy, place a pbs signal in safe waiting places only
15:20:06 <Eddi|zuHause> the rule for converting is even easier: remove all exit signals
15:20:23 <Avdg> or delete the hole map :p
15:20:53 <Eddi|zuHause> if you have a hole in the map, you have more serious problems, i'm afraid :p
15:21:23 <Avdg> yesterday i've been kicked without an reason... someone has tf a lot, so the admin has kicked everybody, not fun...
15:21:36 * petern wonders if 6000 processes is a bit too much
15:21:54 <glx> depends on the system I think
15:22:13 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2024.%20Jan%201951.png <- that might be a nice shot
15:22:20 <Avdg> 6000 processor of 1 hertz :)
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15:23:42 <Avdg> how much processors will you need to program all these processors (if they are at the same speed) :p
15:24:00 <Rubidium> Avdg: depends on the processor
15:24:37 <davis--> i cant ever motivate myself to play a SP game
15:25:15 <Avdg> lol, im bored to play SP
15:25:33 <Avdg> i want some fun in multiplayer :)
15:25:44 <Rubidium> Avdg: 47 processors and you've got a thread per process
15:26:46 <Avdg> like 40 trains crossing on a junction at a unsignalled 8-form
15:27:06 <Avdg> 8-track if you dont understand :p
15:27:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't understand
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15:28:23 <Aali> Eddi|zuHause: looks like you would have problems with jams in that game, ..if only you had more trains :)
15:29:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i've had quite some problems with jams, yes, which is why there's such an elaborate holding system before that terminal station
15:29:12 <Aali> its beautiful to look at though
15:29:56 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2024.%20Dez%201939.png <- i've had more jams with this station, which is impossible to presignal correctly
15:30:52 <Eddi|zuHause> but it's alright with path signals
15:31:14 <Eddi|zuHause> which is why that's the first station i converted when the patch came out ;)
15:32:34 <Aali> yeah, PBS is really great for long-signal-distance low-traffic tracks
15:32:53 <Aali> practically does all the work for you ;)
15:33:32 <qball> hmmmm I should try it out
15:33:46 <Avdg> where should i upload it :/
15:35:15 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2030.%20Jun%201981.png <- well, and then there's this kludge of a station
15:35:22 <Eddi|zuHause> that's already the PBS version
15:38:25 <Avdg> look at the cross under the bridge... i mean that track :)
15:41:26 <murr4y> do you run the maarten servers ?
15:41:36 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%208.%20Mai%201931.png <- not a junction, but it's one of the most beautiful shots i have ;)
15:41:42 <Avdg> maarten was online too :)
15:41:57 <murr4y> oh you're not maarten ?
15:42:07 <murr4y> but you run them with him ?
15:42:18 <murr4y> you're doing a great job, i love playing on them :)
15:45:03 <Antdovu> you know what is missing from maarten servers? trams
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15:48:34 <petern> i dunno, people with numbers in their name...
15:49:05 *** qball is now known as Qba11
15:49:40 <Qba11> What is wron giwth number in my name
15:49:54 <Qba11> damn causing type imparement allready
15:52:41 * Qba11 goes back to his corner *again*
15:53:04 <petern> balls don't have corners
15:53:36 <Avdg> the first or the second one?
15:54:12 <Antdovu> "the first or the second one?": true
15:54:40 <petern> was it some kind of quiz then?
15:54:55 <Qba11> had to grab my calculator
15:56:23 <Avdg> who has used his 6000 processors :p
15:57:23 <glx> Avdg: processes != processors
15:58:05 * Qba11 grabs his smart-dust cluster
15:58:38 <Avdg> [16:21:38] petern wonders if 6000 processes is a bit too much
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15:59:33 <Singaporekid> WHAT BRINGS THIS GREETING
16:01:42 <Avdg> i'm exiting who will solve my reported bug :)
16:03:40 <Antdovu> this is not a bug, it is a feature ;)
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16:08:41 <Antdovu> but it would be a good reason to declare it fixed :P
16:10:56 <kazexe> files needed to run openttd
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16:24:20 <kazexe> what files areneeded to run openttd
16:25:19 <petern> the original data files from the cd, and those supplied in the download
16:26:55 <Swallow> I can confirm that FS2403 is an undocumented feature a.k.a. bug
16:27:07 <Swallow> Looking into it right now
16:27:13 <Antdovu> I managed to reproduce it as well
16:28:23 <Avdg> unless it is dissabled, but it isn't
16:28:59 <frosch123> and why did noone upload a savegame, which you just need to unpause?
16:29:01 <Avdg> i wonder that i could edit my report...
16:29:14 <Avdg> its easy to reproduce...
16:30:01 <Avdg> should i upload a savegame then too?
16:30:07 <Swallow> I have reproduced it, now i'm compiling with some debug statements to hopefully see what goes wrong
16:31:00 <frosch123> well, if it is reproducible at once, you would usually not need to. but if you had, not everyone would have to write, that he can also reproduce it :)
16:31:29 <planetmaker> just upload the current psg, avdg - if that's where you easily managed to do it :)
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16:34:16 <gregor> Avdg, yeah, wrong channel, I know :P
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16:35:06 <glx> is !svn from the same chan as !password?
16:37:46 <frosch123> just write "don't know which channel, but not HERE!"
16:38:21 <glx> but I don't want a third handler
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16:38:33 <frosch123> a third? what is the second?
16:39:08 <glx> only one for now (!links)
16:43:15 <Antdovu> nothing/crashes program
16:43:16 <ln-> you need an auxiliary verb in this inferior english language.
16:43:45 <benjamingoodger> actually you don't
16:43:48 <Avdg> crash if expression is true, interesting...
16:43:57 <gregor> What the fuck is this bot doing?
16:44:19 <frosch123> inverse turing test?
16:44:27 <glx> Avdg: no if expression is false
16:44:49 <ln-> benjamingoodger: too often you do.
16:45:04 <benjamingoodger> "what does assert think" would require the "does" as an auxiliary verb, but "what does assert do" doesn't require the "do" (which would be infinitive, not auxiliary) since "does" is its own auxiliary
16:45:09 <benjamingoodger> but it's conventional to use it
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16:45:43 <benjamingoodger> Avdg: don't worry, we can treat that with medication
16:46:39 <Avdg> too bad, php is written in c...
16:46:43 <benjamingoodger> as in, "I've been having these weird delusions", "don't worry, we can control that with medication"
16:47:44 <Avdg> education sounds better :p
16:48:39 <Antdovu> programming is easy ;)
16:48:52 <Antdovu> unless you use crazy languages
16:49:01 <Antdovu> and C++ is relatively sane
16:49:10 <benjamingoodger> *cough*c*cough*
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16:49:18 <Avdg> php is easy, but not easy to switch into big one :p
16:49:32 <Eddi|zuHause> C/C++ is anything but sane...
16:49:47 <Antdovu> try brainfuck and then say that :P
16:49:54 <benjamingoodger> C and C++ are appalling
16:50:02 <benjamingoodger> only C# is worse
16:50:08 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i know brainfuck
16:50:18 <planetmaker> whitespace makes for nice readability, too.
16:50:30 <Antdovu> yeah, I use that for my printed code
16:50:31 <Eddi|zuHause> it is one of the nicer esoteric languages out there ;)
16:50:52 <Rubidium> I've seen more reliable applications written in C/C++ than in either php or python
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16:51:21 <Rubidium> reliable being that they don't leak memory and cause the OOM killer to intervene
16:51:36 <ln-> Avdg: most importantly, php is not sane.
16:51:53 <Antdovu> well, C/C++ are older and used for different stuff
16:52:28 <Antdovu> PHP scripts are usually killed in a few seconds so memory isn't that important...
16:52:38 <Avdg> if i could write a new language...
16:52:38 <gregor> asm is the todays programming language.
16:52:57 <Avdg> maybe i will design my own asm
16:53:04 <Eddi|zuHause> python, like all scripting languages, has the problem that the non-declarative-ness tends to seriously bite you back in the maintenance lifecycle
16:53:22 <Eddi|zuHause> when you start out without a real plan
16:53:29 <benjamingoodger> ¬.¬ how many times...python isn't a scripting language
16:53:30 <Antdovu> I really hate dynamic types in languages
16:53:37 <benjamingoodger> and it's not dynamically typed
16:53:50 <Avdg> i dont... but sometimes yeah
16:54:19 <Avdg> if you can declare dynamic and nondynamic types, it should be bether :p
16:54:32 <Avdg> but it will use more memory i guess
16:54:35 <Eddi|zuHause> benjamingoodger: when a type can differ depending on the code path taken, what else would you call it than dynamic?
16:54:36 <Antdovu> yes, but PHP doesn't allow it
16:54:48 <benjamingoodger> Eddi|zuHause: duck
16:55:14 <benjamingoodger> it's dynamically assigned, but statically modified and accessed
16:55:15 <Eddi|zuHause> duck typing has nothing to do with dynamic typing
16:55:58 <Eddi|zuHause> statically typed languages can use duck typing equally well
16:56:01 <benjamingoodger> by which I mean, it is strongly typed
16:56:11 <benjamingoodger> but I'm in over my head here. and I'm also late for dinner
16:56:23 <Eddi|zuHause> strongly typed has also nothing to do with statically typed
16:56:30 <Avdg> i want to combine many languages
16:56:49 <Antdovu> C, C++, asm, python can be used at once
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16:57:03 <Eddi|zuHause> languages can very well be strongly typed while they are dynamically typed
16:57:31 <Antdovu> at least you can use all from C++
16:57:41 <Antdovu> + there are language bridges
16:58:00 <Eddi|zuHause> and statically typed does not imply strongly typed
16:58:04 <benjamingoodger> because, that's not a programming language
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16:58:44 <benjamingoodger> if you were referring to assembly, then, I get the joke :)
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16:59:19 <gregor> benjamingoodger, last one. ;)
17:01:10 <Eddi|zuHause> benjamingoodger: duck typing only means that class A {function b()} can be polymorphically used as class B {function b()}, even though they don't share an inheritance relationship
17:01:16 <gregor> .CODE START PROC MOV AH,128 TEST AH,10000000B JNZ HELLO NOP HELLO:
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17:01:51 <Eddi|zuHause> that is totally orthogonal to static/dynamic or strong/weak types
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17:07:34 <Avdg> hum... if v7.0 comes out, it will make a copy of the trunk and goes his own direction, right?
17:07:59 <Eddi|zuHause> how do you figure there would ever be a v7.0?
17:08:40 <Eddi|zuHause> then say that ;)
17:09:07 <Antdovu> after 0.9.x we can have 0.10.0 :)
17:09:44 <Avdg> when do we have an official V1?
17:09:47 <Eddi|zuHause> and if you judge from history, there would be a 0.7 branch that will get bugfix releases from time to time, but no new features anymore
17:10:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Avdg: would a time range from 1 second to infinity suit you?
17:10:38 <Avdg> so if there is a old bug in the trunk, then you need it to fix it twice :/
17:10:47 <Rubidium> after 0.9.x comes 0.A.x
17:10:54 <Eddi|zuHause> it's called backporting, Avdg.
17:11:03 <Eddi|zuHause> it happens all the time
17:12:14 <frosch123> Avdg: after solaris 2.6 came solaris 7
17:12:33 <Sacro> surely you go 0-9a-zA-Z?
17:14:01 * Avdg wants to fix bugs, he hasnt fix any bug at bughuntday :'(
17:14:25 <Antdovu> create one and then fix it
17:14:53 <Eddi|zuHause> the person who hunts is not necessarily the person who cooks
17:15:20 <Avdg> i've reported already 2 bugs, but only 1 at the bugtracker
17:15:20 <Eddi|zuHause> there are synergy effects to consider
17:15:53 <Avdg> my first one was the buoy-delete == crash bug
17:16:18 <Eddi|zuHause> someone wake me when we are at version 0.０.0 ;)
17:16:25 <Antdovu> CmdSetCompanyColor (should be CmdSetCompanyColour) is a critical bug ;)
17:17:26 <Avdg> not really for the computer :p
17:17:50 <Antdovu> my computer sneezes every time it sees color instead of colour ;)
17:18:02 <Avdg> actually, computers doesn't make bugs, human say it is a bug...
17:18:37 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, the term "bug" comes from a time where there were really bugs in the computer, causing shortcuts
17:18:43 <Avdg> even when windows is crashing caused by wrong hardware :p
17:19:02 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: is that GOATSE?
17:19:28 <Eddi|zuHause> err... i don't think so...
17:19:44 <Avdg> lool, we have to make a new chanel... #al languages inc.
17:19:44 <Antdovu> well, reboot has a similar history :P
17:20:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i've never heard a plausible story why it's called "boot"
17:20:55 <Avdg> boot is at other chanel :p
17:21:21 <Antdovu> reboot = hit a computer with your foot
17:21:36 <Antdovu> they used to have interesting kinds of memory...
17:22:07 <Eddi|zuHause> Antdovu: that is definitely not a plausible story
17:22:24 <Avdg> !update definition reboot: hit the resetbutton accidently
17:22:59 <Eddi|zuHause> because it does not explain the word "booting" [without "re-"]
17:23:20 <Aali> boot is just short for bootstrap
17:23:41 <Antdovu> it doesn't have to have any connection
17:23:43 <Avdg> :p im also interested in the hardware...
17:23:47 <frosch123> it is called boot, because the operator had to put on his boots to go out into the dark and enter the building from the backside to turn on the machine :p
17:24:10 <Aali> which in turn is short for bootstrap load
17:25:25 <Aali> which refers to the process of loading a simple program that will do whatever has to be done to get the system running without the help of an operator
17:25:52 <Aali> much like a real bootstrap will let you get your boots on without help from someone else
17:25:58 <Avdg> i want to know how a real computer starts :p
17:26:43 <Eddi|zuHause> real computers start by a wing flap of a bytterfly
17:27:35 <Avdg> hum... why should trains revert automatic?
17:28:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a box of those at homee
17:28:41 <Eddi|zuHause> for like 128 byte of printer storage
17:29:40 <Antdovu> I have 10 bits of storage on my hands :)
17:30:21 <Eddi|zuHause> they're called "digits" ;)
17:31:30 <Avdg> howmuch kb does our body have (normal)
17:31:48 <Antdovu> any suggestions for the GUI of part1?
17:32:11 <Antdovu> I have a working prototype for the functionality
17:33:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Avdg: i'd say the brain can store significantly more than an average hard drive, but it is not "random access"
17:33:51 <nicfer> currently there is no way to create a station between two others, joining one of them
17:34:13 <Antdovu> there was a patch, wasn't there?
17:34:14 <Avdg> i mean, fingers, etc... :p
17:34:27 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to cover at least one tile from the station you want to join
17:34:50 <Avdg> :p now i understand the patch :p
17:35:24 <nicfer> but it's not possible if the tile where you want to put the station is adyacent to another one
17:36:06 <Eddi|zuHause> you must overbuild an existing tile from the station, i said
17:37:07 <nicfer> that doesn't work for road stations
17:37:26 <Eddi|zuHause> that is true, they cannot cover more than 1 tile
17:37:43 <Aali> distant join patch can do it though
17:37:43 <Eddi|zuHause> but afaik there was a patch for drag&drop road stations
17:37:55 <Eddi|zuHause> which would allow that again
17:38:39 <Eddi|zuHause> distant-join is disputed functionality.
17:38:48 <Antdovu> drive-through road stations never seem to work well
17:39:13 <Eddi|zuHause> drive-through stations work well, if you don't rely on multistop
17:39:52 <Eddi|zuHause> multistop was not adapted to the two loading bays being accessible from different directions
17:39:54 <Aali> distant join is kindof a messy patch, but very very useful
17:40:15 <Antdovu> why not make one way drive-through stations so overtaking isn't a problem?
17:40:28 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you could try to rewrite it cleanly, and then start another attempt of getting it included
17:40:49 <Aali> it will never be clean without some big rewrites though
17:40:53 <Avdg> i hope that my report will be fixed and added, before 0.7.0 comes out :p
17:41:24 <Aali> there's just not enough space for all that info in a single command
17:41:26 <Eddi|zuHause> 0.7.0 won't be likely to come out in the next couple of days :p
17:42:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: the command only needs an additional station id, doesn't it?
17:42:47 <Aali> Eddi|zuHause: yes, and there's not enough bits free for that
17:43:11 <Eddi|zuHause> that's unfortunate ;)
17:43:12 <Aali> so the current patch butchers the format and cuts some of the grf bits
17:43:59 <Swallow> not enough space in which DoCommand?
17:44:11 <Eddi|zuHause> suggestion: split the reservation for the station tiles command from the build station on existing station tiles command?
17:44:58 <Eddi|zuHause> so for the first command you get a station of empty tiles, which are then filled by the second command?
17:45:39 <Aali> the idea is to interfere as little as possible with current behaviour
17:46:04 <Aali> creating another command you have to execute to get a station doesn't really help
17:46:06 <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes that is not a strategy that leads to the goal ;)
17:46:45 <Aali> thats not a strategy, that is the goal
17:47:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd argue with that statement...
17:47:38 <Aali> the patch works, all thats left is to make it more compatible with 3rd-party code
17:48:00 <Swallow> You are talking about CMD_BUILD_RAILROAD_STATION, right?
17:48:33 <Swallow> Why is there not enough space there?
17:49:25 <Swallow> p1 bit 1..7 and 25..31 and p2 bit 4..7 and 24..31 are unused AFAIK
17:50:55 <Aali> don't ask me, i didn't write it
17:50:56 <petern> probably not enough map space, rather than not enough space in the command parameters.
17:51:52 <Aali> err, it doesn't use any map space at all
17:52:28 <petern> hmm, then i don't know what you're talking about :)
17:54:35 <Aali> hmm, it assumes any "regular" command is joining INVALID_STATION though
17:55:10 <Aali> so, even if the format was preserved, it wouldn't work with unmodified code
17:55:14 <Sacro> Aylomen: trains always stop *behind* signals
17:55:52 <petern> command parameter format can be changed at will
17:56:24 <petern> 26 bits free is plenty
17:56:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: wth do you mean with "unmodified code"? you either modify it, or don't, there is nothing inbetween
17:57:00 <Aali> obviously, you have never tried to merge noai with distant join
17:57:21 <Eddi|zuHause> that is an entirely different problem :p
17:58:00 <petern> that's a problem for whoever merges with noai :p
17:58:11 <Eddi|zuHause> and definitely not a problem for trunk inclusion
17:59:58 <Antdovu> why does ottd hate STL?
18:00:32 <Aali> well, either you try to keep command parameter format, or you hide it from "the rest of the code"
18:01:13 <Aali> since the latter isn't being done in ottd, the former should be
18:04:08 <petern> you are not making sense
18:07:09 <Aali> as it is now, you have to know the command parameter format for a given command to execute that command properly
18:07:34 <Aali> thats fine, but some effort should be made to keep the format unchanged, if possible
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18:08:27 <Eddi|zuHause> if you want to do an abstraction from the parameter format, that is a completely different patch
18:08:30 <Yexo> why? the command is only executed by openttd code, so if all calling code is also changed, I don't see any problem?
18:09:04 <Aali> the problem is that you have to find and change all calling code
18:09:10 <Belugas> uniformization of the parameters of the commands???
18:09:26 <Yexo> Aali: that only takes one grep through the source code
18:09:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: grep CMD_BUILD_STATION?
18:09:37 <Antdovu> "find all references" button...
18:09:43 <petern> that is done *once* by the patch that changes it
18:09:59 <Aali> clearly i am pushing some buttons here
18:10:36 <Aali> i'm simply saying the author of distant join shouldn't have butchered the parameter format, because its not needed
18:10:37 <Belugas> you have to, in order for us to read your lines ^_^
18:11:28 <Aali> and all your suggestions would not have solved the issue with noai passing bad parameters to distant join
18:11:47 <Eddi|zuHause> if you want an abstraction from the parameter format, you could try inline functions "packXYZCmdParameters" and "unpackXYZCmdParameters"
18:12:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: all of our statements said this is a non-issue
18:12:45 <Aali> i already told you, the fact that command parameters aren't abstracted away does not bother me
18:13:04 <Aali> it would be silly, since they're only constructed in maybe one or two places
18:13:46 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not silly, because then it is cleanly documented how parameters are constructed, and both construction and use are in the same spot
18:13:51 <Aali> Eddi|zuHause: its an annoyance that could've been avoided, and i dont see why you get all worked up about it, did you write distant join? :P
18:14:41 <Eddi|zuHause> no, but i'd like to see the functionality in a clean form to promote trunk inclusion
18:15:35 <Eddi|zuHause> and i studied software engineering, so i know about this kind of abstraction strategies ;)
18:15:42 <Wolf01> I and Frostregen wrote the distant join
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18:17:18 <Wolf01> the I think, since there aren't other versions
18:17:41 <Wolf01> it's always the same one only sync-ed with trunk
18:17:59 <glx> I though there was a version safer for MP
18:18:03 <Aali> Wolf01: the issue at hand is the butchered command parameter format for CMD_BUILD_RAILROAD_STATION, that caused some problems with noai
18:18:21 <glx> Aali: that's a noai problem
18:18:38 <Aali> i think you should have kept it compatible with the original format, but you could not have foreseen this issue :P
18:18:52 <Aali> glx: that depends on how you look at it
18:18:58 <glx> and it's not a problem as the patch is not a noai patch but a trunk patch
18:19:08 <Wolf01> as far I remember it is fully compatible with the original format
18:19:28 <Aali> Wolf01: it is not, not anymore, atleast
18:19:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: easy combining of patches is never going to be a good design goal
18:19:50 <Eddi|zuHause> (in this instance)
18:20:23 <glx> any patch is compatible with the version it's designed for
18:24:27 <Eddi|zuHause> and the bigger the patch is, and the longer the time between original creation and (hypothetical) trunk inclusion, the higher the risk that the codebase diverges too much.
18:28:16 <Belugas> Aali, are you suggesting that noAI should have been programmed in order to not conflict with all the other patches around?
18:29:24 <Aali> Belugas: no i'm suggesting distant join should have been programmed in order to conflict with as few things as possible
18:31:47 <petern> bit 15 still signifies a callback, yes?
18:32:02 <petern> so bit 15 can't be the reverse flag
18:32:07 <DaleStan> Var 47 version bump definitely needed. It's a change.
18:32:12 <frosch123> true, have to shift it right by one :)
18:32:40 <petern> that limits articulated parts to IDs under 16384, which should be okay
18:34:31 <petern> i want 32 bit results for cb36 ;)
18:35:18 <DaleStan> Missing change: In v8, if all callbacks are 15-bit, then should FF## be 7F## instead of 00##?
18:35:21 <petern> actually that one's problematic
18:35:34 <petern> as it coexists with 8bit values too :o
18:36:15 <frosch123> hmm, 16 bit callbacks :)
18:37:04 <petern> 0xffff is a callback value of 0x7fff
18:38:02 <frosch123> petern: reload, I changed it into a proper 15 bit callback
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18:38:17 <Yexo> cb18 (and maybe others) cannot be extended for more rail types currently
18:39:05 <frosch123> Yexo: you can add new subtypes to cb18. so it does not need a grf version bump
18:40:28 <petern> cb18 is an abomination anyway :)
18:41:15 <DaleStan> <petern> 0xffff is a callback value of 0x7fff <-- not so in v4-v7.
18:45:11 <frosch123> Yexo: That suggestion would restrict callback 18 to be a noai only callback, and would stop supporting TTDP AIs. You have to add a new value for variable 86 for noai stuff. Then you can do what you like, without any version bump.
18:45:47 <Yexo> frosch123: I don't see why a TTDP AI couldn't use that callback
18:47:32 <frosch123> you have to discuss that with a patch dev. but I guess they will happily await your patch :)
18:47:58 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: translators * r14575 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
18:47:58 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-11-11 18:47:38
18:47:58 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: dutch - 2 changed by Excel20 (2)
18:47:58 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: latvian - 14 fixed by v3rb0 (14)
18:47:58 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: macedonian - 161 fixed, 15 changed by sashozs (176)
18:48:00 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: portuguese - 1 fixed by joznaz (1)
18:50:01 <frosch123> Yexo: despite of that, "81 W" is highly incompatible with everything that has been specified for newgrfs before
18:51:20 <frosch123> i.e. 80+x variables are just offsets into a memory area. so when 81 is a word, 82 is the high byte of 81
18:52:00 <DaleStan> Ditto 84 and 85. And thus it will stay.
18:52:48 <Yexo> still, the current cb18 has "82 B default selection" where "default selection" is an EngineID when features = 00-03
18:52:57 <Yexo> ie it doesn't work with the engine pool
18:56:04 <FloSoft> 82B? thats not sooo big *scnr*
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19:17:27 <Chrill> you dont have the power to eat up passwords on the brianetta server?
19:17:57 <Chrill> seeing how the site says "contact brianetta irc email blabla", Chrill wants his password :P
19:18:39 <Chrill> would you do that for chrillums?
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19:43:57 <nicfer> I can't wait for the OCS renewal
19:45:48 <nicfer> it makes powerplants useful again
19:49:58 <Wolf01> I can't wait for any feature, I need some serotonin, new features make me feel slightly better, like purchasing things like games (which I don't play because I have not enough time) or electronics or books
19:53:35 <nicfer> there is a dead patch I liked: the seasons one
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20:02:30 <frosch123> we are playing the finished version for months
20:03:33 <frosch123> havn't you noticed, that there were a lot less commits in the last weeks? what do you think we are doing :p
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20:04:50 <Antdovu> frosch123: learning macedonian :)
20:05:10 <frosch123> serbian would be more useful :)
20:05:32 <Antdovu> well, there are basically two schools of thought...
20:05:35 <Wolf01> they have cbh, diagonal bridges, new map array, rotatable maps and more than 10 new road/rail types too
20:06:07 <Antdovu> I am pretty sure it isn't April yet ;)
20:08:41 <Qball> I don't have time to play gains
20:09:22 <Rubidium> no, April 1st is reserved for releases
20:17:22 <nicfer> still, I think that fake subways are the way to go
20:17:36 <nicfer> even through this feature will kinda help
20:18:08 <Wolf01> the main problem is to set the height of the transparency :P
20:19:33 <nicfer> just tunnel a tramtrack below houses and other stuff, leaving curves and stations visible
20:20:44 <nicfer> I have two words for you: it's unrealistic :)
20:21:00 <Wolf01> I know you're hiding wonderful features like you are Area51 :P
20:21:46 <nicfer> REAL subways, behind all the implementation mess, would be hard to control
20:22:07 <Rubidium> nicfer: if done correctly it's no harder than any normal rail/rv network
20:22:50 <nicfer> having to press a button for seeing your subways is kinda molest
20:23:45 * Belugas wants to elect nicfer as chief-coder for OpenTTD
20:24:27 * nicfer notes that I have no idea about programming
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20:26:53 <petern> "is kinda molest"... what?
20:27:20 <Antdovu1> if we ever get real subways then somebody is going to build a huge coal transporting network underground, on maglev trains if possible :P
20:28:03 <Antdovu1> well, it needs more features
20:28:15 <Antdovu1> a HUGE pink unicorn is needed as well
20:28:40 <frosch123> transporting coal underground is nothing special :)
20:28:41 <nicfer> also they should be coded as trams, only using underground tracks
20:29:16 <Wolf01> then we'll need fully flexible bridges as locomotion to be able to build more levels overground :P
20:29:16 <frosch123> you would need a fitting vehicle grf, like the "heavy whatever stuff"
20:29:49 <petern> any more stupid suggestions and you'll answer to my ban-stick
20:29:56 <Antdovu1> maglev coal trains in a subway isn't probably very common :P
20:30:26 <Antdovu1> but you never know with china...
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20:31:48 <Belugas> yeah! I've got another suggestion : there should be mp3s reading instead of midi ;)
20:34:06 <frosch123> true, a modern game would allow plugging your guitar into the computer, and to increase your initial funds with a good performance
20:34:54 <Wolf01> I was looking yesterday for an usb guitar
20:36:05 <Belugas> oh.. instead of chatting, it will actually send out the sound of the instruments!
20:36:10 <ln-> *for an usb guitar yesterday
20:36:38 <Belugas> and after a while, no one cares about the trains, just grooving on a beat ^_^
20:37:07 <Wolf01> that's easy, it's just an usb cable from the pc to... your pocket :D
20:38:51 <SpComb> a usb air guitar that doesn't generate any kind of signal is kind of useless
21:07:23 <dih> Belugas, how about a chat reader? rather than having to actually pay attention to that text, OpenTTD will read it out loud :-P
21:10:48 <Antdovu> I just don't see the point in such a feature
21:11:03 <Antdovu> How will it help me find out how many trains I need to add?
21:13:17 <Antdovu> then it is certainly completely useless :P
21:14:25 <Belugas> HO MY GOD!!!!!! ARE YOU KIDDING ?????
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21:42:25 <DaleStan> Something. Probably a clamp, but it might overflow.
21:43:10 <DaleStan> OpenTTD and early versions of TTDPatch are more likely to overflow.
21:44:03 <George> And what about the latest nighties?
21:44:05 <George> Would it be hard to make it FF FF then?
21:44:35 <DaleStan> I take it that means you have confirmed it doesn't clamp in the nightlies?
21:46:05 <SmatZ> most likely it is clamped
21:46:25 <George> well, I got only 52K population yet, so it was a theoretical question. But if necessary, I'll make a test on week end
21:46:33 <SmatZ> case 0x82: return ClampToU16(t->population);
21:51:03 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: truebrain * r14576 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_abstractlist.hpp: [NoAI] -Fix: typo in doxygen comment (Finaldeath)
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21:52:07 <SmatZ> ah, George was asking DaleStan, ignore me then :)
21:53:13 <George> sorry, I asked anybody who can answer
21:54:20 <DaleStan> It looks to me like it's clamped in both beta 9 and the latest Patch nightlies.
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22:15:35 <DorpsGek> rortom: TrueBrain was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 0 days, 0 hours, 50 minutes, and 27 seconds ago: <TrueBrain> I hate youtube
22:15:53 <Yexo> rortom: what do you need TrueBrain for?
22:16:16 <rortom> he wanted me to tell a name of a nice climbing hall in the netherlands ;)
22:16:34 <rortom> you tested my patch? :)
22:16:35 <Yexo> ah, he is active in #openttd.noai, just not here
22:16:56 <rortom> ive fixed some bugs i had yesterday
22:17:24 <rortom> also im questining what statistics i should add
22:17:37 <rortom> some more senseful then the ones now
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22:46:44 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Belugas was last seen in #openttd 1 hour, 32 minutes, and 18 seconds ago: <Belugas> HO MY GOD!!!!!! ARE YOU KIDDING ?????
22:47:47 <Chrill> Such a quite can only be Belugas'
22:48:11 <Sacro> almost like he pre-empted me
22:51:49 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: smatz * r14577 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#2403]: vehicle didn't respect its 'refit in nearest depot' order (Swallow)
22:55:32 <Sacro> Anyone else here use Delphi?
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23:02:16 <SmatZ> Sacro: you didn't specify "else than who"
23:03:15 <Antdovu> but then the nightmare ended and I woke up
23:03:52 * SmatZ 's ignore list grows a bit again :)
23:04:57 <Sacro> I want to know what a type 20 is when decompiling a delphi generated file
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