IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-11-10
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00:04:20 <Nite_Owl> Time to feed - Later all
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00:59:49 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: truebrain * r14571 /branches/noai/bin/ai/library/ (6 files in 6 dirs): [NoAI] -Fix: various of fixes in the libraries to work with NAIL-v2
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02:41:01 <Sacro> rortom: missing close bracket D:
02:41:32 <Sacro> (is it a bug or a feature?;)
02:45:02 <SmatZ> rortom: you really dislike OTTD coding style :-P
02:45:50 <rortom> i guess its my { braches?
02:46:17 <rortom> say whats wrong so i can correct it :\
02:53:42 <rortom> fixed some braches, etc
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10:09:07 <Rubidium> Char/Char2: joining one time is more than enough
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10:39:08 <mlankhorst_> Are there plans to remove the dependency on the non-free artwork needed to run openttd?
10:39:43 <FauxFaux> mlankhorst_: Only a few million of them.
10:39:53 <dih> have a look at the forums
10:39:56 <Progman> sure, but they must be replaced by new ones
10:40:08 <dih> esp the graphics replacement project :-P
10:43:15 <FauxFaux> Or just run with -b 8bpp-debug or whatever the flag is. ;)
10:43:48 <dih> you still need those grf's though!
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10:52:37 <petern> so did opengfx copy the palette maps verbatim? :p
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11:42:58 <Antdovu> posted windows binary for those interested in the station gui patch
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12:01:45 <Jango> oil isn't really a feasible cargo is it
12:01:52 <Jango> all my oil wells are shutting down
12:03:43 <Aali> oil wells in temperate are kind of useless, but you can still use oil platforms
12:04:11 <Jango> i'm playing on a massive map and there's 1 oil well left and 3 oil rigs
12:04:20 <Jango> compared to 127 coal mines
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12:18:42 <Aali> hmm, doing a track overlay thing, do i have to create separate sprites for half-tile foundations?
12:19:43 <Aali> or can i just use AddSortableSpriteToDraw and add 8 to z?
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12:22:44 <Aali> using method #2 with code copied from the PBS stuff doesn't look very good, the overlay isn't really part of the ground and ends up on top of things it shouldn't (like the autorail preview for example)
12:23:42 <Aali> but i dont see why DrawGroundSprite would need separate sprites, its already aware of the foundation :/
12:25:57 <davis--> iam afraid I cant help you there D:
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12:38:02 <petern> a track overlay thing? heh
12:39:32 <Aali> like the grass on unused tracks patch
12:40:16 <Aali> and yes, i looked at it, it doesn't even work with half-tile foundations (sprites end up in the wrong place)
12:41:43 <Doorslammer> Hmmm, this should make for an interesting picture video
12:42:01 <Doorslammer> Thomas the Tank Engine characters set to the tune of "Trans Europe Express"
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14:46:11 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14573 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_order.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: getting the order destination of aircraft could assert when the order was a depot order (hangars are referenced by StationID, not by DepotID).
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15:33:04 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Trond was last seen in #openttd 27 weeks, 5 days, 3 hours, 23 minutes, and 40 seconds ago: <Trond> his system*
15:39:43 <bottiger> I'm using Linux, and only the first time i opened openttd I got music - now it's gone. Sounds effects however works fine
15:40:25 <planetmaker> sounds like you disabled music. The right most button(?) will allow you to change settings.
15:40:32 <planetmaker> in the main menu while playing
15:42:00 <bottiger> the jukebox just doesn't want to play anything
15:42:20 <bottiger> but there's lot of songs on the playlist/program
15:42:26 <petern> the music sucks anyway
15:43:12 <bottiger> petern: I never heard it :P but it just bugs me it doesn't work
15:43:34 <petern> common problem, sound cards these days don't do any sort of midi rendering
15:46:11 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14572 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/macedonian.txt: -Add: stub for Macedonian.
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16:25:14 <Belugas> what do you think... Scotland's Shame :)
16:26:45 <petern> hmm, is this really nearly 10 years old..
16:28:36 <Belugas> watch out for your ears!
16:28:44 <Belugas> 10 years old, but still so good :)
16:29:00 <Belugas> like men, getting better with age ;)
16:30:32 <benjamingoodger> hrrm, don't denigrate young people
16:30:53 <benjamingoodger> if generation Y loses motivation, the world will end in a few decades
16:34:04 <Belugas> seriously, i doubt that ;)
16:34:20 <Antdovu> so what? the current old people won't be around to see it :P
16:35:00 <dih> Antdovu, i seriouslly cannot tell what the real point of that station stats is
16:35:05 <dih> what benifit does it bring?
16:35:18 <dih> you just have a growing number - nothing else
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16:35:29 <Belugas> i'll be a ghost haunting the world then!
16:35:41 <dih> Belugas, you already haunt the world :-P
16:35:53 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: glx * r14574 /branches/noai/src/ (52 files in 6 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r14542:14573
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16:40:04 * Belugas re-starts The Precipice
16:41:15 * Belugas plays guitar in his head
16:43:57 * benjamingoodger plays guitar on Belugas' head
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16:47:04 <Belugas> i'm pretty sure you can't even play a Dm5 on a DADGAD tuning! :P
16:51:31 <dih> you 2 are simply not funny
16:51:56 <dih> ln-: for someone who did not speak english just yesterday, you should not even try :-P
16:52:29 <benjamingoodger> ln probably speaks better english than most people I know
16:53:29 <Antdovu> dih: are you a resident that's-a-useless-patch-just-drop-it guy by any chance? ;)
16:54:23 <Belugas> dih is the admin-i-crave-for-total-server-control freak guy :D
16:54:27 <dih> no - i am the kind of guy that does not understand the purpose of patches that have no use :-P
16:55:22 <benjamingoodger> quiet, you megalomaniac
16:55:51 <Antdovu> could I get a second opinion on my question? ;)
16:56:05 <dih> Antdovu, in this case i merely dont sue the point, and asked ;-)
16:56:45 <dih> if it's just displaying numbers that do not help in any way when considering the number of trains needed to service etc. i see really no point
16:57:17 <dih> so i am just asking what it _really_ does and for what use
16:57:49 <Antdovu> actually, it could help with your point
16:58:56 <Antdovu> you can see data about the past and the general direction by comparing last month & year
16:59:25 <Antdovu> if it is increasing then there is a good chance you need more trains
17:02:05 <Antdovu> the amount of cargo going through the station can be a good useful to understand how important the station actually is
17:02:30 <ln-> 18:52 < benjamingoodger> ln probably speaks better english than most people I know <-- thanks
17:03:14 <benjamingoodger> ln-: don't take that as a personal compliment
17:03:27 <Antdovu> right now you have no idea about the cargo flow trough transfer stations and unloading points that don't produce anything
17:03:39 <benjamingoodger> statistically, english-speaking europeans usually speak better english than english-speaking britons
17:04:53 <Antdovu> english-speaking is a relative term :P
17:05:40 <benjamingoodger> no, I'd say the Swedish education system produces better english speakers than the British education system
17:05:43 <dih> Antdovu, so half of that patch is just storing unused numbers wasing space?
17:05:49 <benjamingoodger> it's....horrifying
17:06:50 <Antdovu> many international students in Edinburgh have horrible language skills as well...
17:07:48 <Antdovu> it is just harder to notice when they are busy speaking other languages
17:07:49 <benjamingoodger> I'm not familiar with edinburgh, what nationality are they? the chinese people in cornwall are appalling, I'll admit
17:08:40 <Antdovu> the chinese are noticeable here as well
17:08:51 <Antdovu> but that is probably because there are so many of them ;)
17:11:06 <Antdovu> but the main point is that you won't notice somebodies bad English if they always avoid using it
17:12:10 <benjamingoodger> that is incredibly annoying
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17:53:10 <Rubidium> Char/Char2: fix you IRC client
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17:55:27 <Rubidium> that might be a bit extreme
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18:01:02 <Antdovu> my personality is split into 42
18:01:30 <Antdovu> I require them to use a proxy to access reality
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19:17:59 <arachnid> If I direct a train to go to a depot and select 'refit', why would the list of cargoes I can refit to be empty?
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19:19:01 <Yexo> are you using the default vehicles or some newgrf?
19:19:32 <arachnid> I have newgrfs, but I don't think I'm using them for this.
19:20:27 <arachnid> Oh, I see. Does the refit order only apply to the train's built-in storage?
19:20:34 <arachnid> Not to changing carriages?
19:21:01 <Yexo> Default vehicles are not refittable at all, so you must be using some vehicle newgrf.
19:21:24 <Yexo> The refit order refits all wagons of the train that can be refitted
19:21:40 <arachnid> Okay, so what wagons can and can't be refitted?
19:21:55 <Yexo> that depends on the newgrf you are using
19:22:17 <Yexo> but you can see that information in the new rail vehicle window
19:22:59 <arachnid> Any suggestions for newgrfs to use if I want to be able to refit my rail vehicles between legs, then?
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19:24:40 <arachnid> so take ore to a steel mill, then steel to a factory, etc
19:25:16 <Yexo> ah, I just found out that leg can also mean "part of a journey". :p
19:26:02 <Yexo> I've no idea if there are newgrfs with wagons that can be refitted from steel to iron ore
19:27:19 <frosch123> the first "low border wagon" in dbsetxl can carry both, but it carries only 15 tons and has a 60 kmh limit :p
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20:01:44 <arachnid> Yeah, that's a bit useless :P
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20:14:56 <arachnid> What do I have to do to get PlaneSet working? I get a little exclamation mark icon next to it in the newgrf listing, with no explanation
20:15:29 <Rubidium> probably change the aircraft speed multiplier
20:15:58 <DaleStan> It should work with all multipliers. And if it's a configuration problem, then it produces a message.
20:16:21 <arachnid> Oh, it's "designed to be used with moreairports on" it seems
20:16:30 <arachnid> But I can't find that setting anywhere
20:17:06 <frosch123> 0.6.x or nightlies?
20:17:26 <frosch123> and IIRC it is only a warning
20:17:52 <frosch123> try enabling "airport noise limits" or whatever it is caleld
20:18:27 <Belugas> which version of OpenTTD are you using?
20:18:30 <DaleStan> It's not even a warning. Just a message.
20:18:51 <arachnid> Actually, I think I have some of them, but I can't find any blimps - or any info on when they should be available.
20:19:26 <DaleStan> Early to mid 1930s, I believe.
20:19:43 <arachnid> That's when I checked, but nothing. :/
20:22:04 <arachnid> Turning on 'Aviator's aircraft' newgrf instead got me a generic 'airship'
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21:18:30 <frosch123> well, also night from me
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21:33:04 <rortom> who is working on cargodest?
21:33:14 <rortom> and how far away is a possible merge?
21:34:13 <Rubidium> depends on what merges into what ;)
21:34:34 <Belugas> q2: can't answer that one
21:35:10 <rortom> since i was wondering if i should port my new station GUI to the cargodest branch
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21:46:04 <Cornflower> I need some advice.
21:46:08 <Belugas> time to run home now...
21:48:04 <Cornflower> There's this server caled "!Kurt's Hard Goal!".
21:49:51 <Antdovu> everyone should rename their game to "!current_name"
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21:50:37 <Cornflower> And the guy who made it, Kurt, has a forum that is dedacted to it.
21:51:29 <Cornflower> And to post in it, you have to be rated five times.
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21:53:10 <Cornflower> I've been rated five times, yet, the system doesn't let me post.
21:53:31 <Progman> Cornflower: then ask him why his system doesn't work ;)
21:53:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Cornflower: i don't think this is the right place to ask
21:54:17 <Cornflower> Well I'm clueless...
21:55:12 <Cornflower> I've already sent a PM to him, I got no responce.
21:57:22 <Cornflower> It's been quite a while since then...
21:58:43 <dih> Cornflower, openttd is not responsible for the servers or their respective admins
21:58:54 <dih> and not all admins chill in this channel
21:59:21 <dih> as a few people have already said - this is not the place to direct you question to
22:00:15 <planetmaker> [22:48] <Cornflower> There's this server caled "!Kurt's Hard Goal!". <--- remember that game there, dih? :)
22:00:44 <dih> and we should crash it at some point :-D
22:04:35 <Antdovu> why isn't this CmdSetCompanyColour? :P
22:05:01 <dih> same word different meaning :-D
22:05:04 <planetmaker> leftover I assume :)
22:05:43 <Cornflower> Difference between US and UK english?
22:06:00 <dih> yes - but OpenTTD has chosed to use one of them and not both
22:06:07 <Antdovu> would it be a good idea to create a patch for it and mark it as critical? :P
22:06:32 <dih> you can mark your patches as anything you like
22:06:40 <dih> just dont expect the devs to leave it that way
22:06:53 <dih> nor should you expect them to consider it high priority themselves
22:06:55 <rortom> oh, as you speak about patches :p
22:07:03 <rortom> does someone want to review mine? :|
22:08:08 <Yexo> rortom: you are thomasdev?
22:08:39 <Yexo> you should read the wiki page on coding style
22:08:45 <Cornflower> The bug makes the game more like locomotion...
22:09:10 <Yexo> "for(uint8 j=0;j<CARCAT_NUM;j++) {" should be "for (uint8 j = 0; j < CARCAT_NUM; j++) {"
22:09:31 <rortom> ok, let me clean it up now
22:09:31 <dih> i cannot see where that is a useful patch
22:09:47 <dih> and i remember talking about it to someone else not so long ago
22:10:02 <Antdovu> yeah, you mentioned it to me for some reason...
22:10:29 <Antdovu> probably because I posted the win32 binary?
22:10:30 <dih> i thought it was you having a go at some more coding :-p
22:10:38 <Yexo> rortom: "// set view type" should be "/* set view type */"
22:10:57 <rortom> Yexo: thanks for the tips :)
22:11:09 <rortom> dih: why dont you like the patch?
22:11:09 <Antdovu> I am working on another completely useless patch :)
22:11:31 <dih> Antdovu, what would that be?
22:11:47 <rortom> dih, whats your last patch?
22:11:57 <Antdovu> Saveable Company Info
22:12:05 <Yexo> "+ int y = 27;" <- you change y here from a constant (15) to a different constant (27), maybe you can change it to some defined constant? (or something like this->widgets[widged_num].top or so)
22:12:07 <dih> the last patch in trunk or the last one for wwottdgd?
22:13:05 <dih> rortom: my fav patch in trunk is reload_config, my fav patch over all is move_clients
22:13:38 <rortom> ah, so you know how long it takes to produce stuff
22:13:44 <Yexo> "+ // DrawString(16, y, STR_NSG_NO_RATING, TC_FROMSTRING)" <- don't add commented out code
22:14:04 <Yexo> rortom: I like what the patch does, but it's still a long way from trunk with the current style, but I'm sure you can improve that
22:14:46 <rortom> i will fix the style right now
22:14:55 <rortom> after i read the style guide fully ;)
22:15:05 <rortom> could you review after that again? :)
22:15:21 <Yexo> "+#define CARCAT_NUM 3" <- instead of making a define, just add an extra entry to to the enum named CARCAT_END and use that instead
22:15:36 <rortom> thank you very much :)
22:15:52 <dih> rortom, i too have had my share of small and seemingly useless patches
22:16:13 <dih> and me failing to see a use of a patch does not make the patch useless to those who can see the uses
22:16:34 <dih> i fail at seeing where knowing the throughput of a station could be useful
22:16:38 <dih> i see no need to know that info
22:16:47 <dih> i need to know what i can expect for the next month
22:17:03 <dih> as the increase / decrease is random it's hard to 'foresee' that
22:17:28 <dih> all i would be interested in is - do i need more trains, or do i need less trains
22:17:44 <rortom> with the current layout
22:17:50 <rortom> we can easily add more stats
22:17:51 <Yexo> dih: in my view those statistics are not 'usefull' in a normal game, but they are nice to compare station sizes
22:17:57 <dih> last month and last year dont do it for me :-P
22:18:10 <SpComb> add "next month" and "next year" buttons
22:18:16 <SpComb> and make the amount of cargo editable
22:18:17 <rortom> it was just the first stats that came in my mind ...
22:18:29 <rortom> so if you have better ideas, just say :)
22:18:30 <dih> Yexo, where does that fit in to the game?
22:18:30 <planetmaker> these stats can be nice means to assess efficiency
22:18:46 <Yexo> ^^ that is what I wanted to say
22:18:49 <planetmaker> e.g. a 6 track station handling the same amount as another 8 track or so.
22:18:50 <Antdovu> suggestion: save the monthly data when saving the game
22:19:07 <planetmaker> no. Against. Savegame bumps are evil
22:19:17 <dih> so we store 3 huge variables on top for each station?
22:19:53 <rortom> no, savegame format change
22:20:05 <dih> Antdovu, bumps are easy :-P
22:20:07 <Yexo> planetmaker: a savegame bump is not perse needed, you can have the patch store the information from current_savegameversion+1 without bumping the savegame version, that just means the informatino will only be saved from the next bump onwards
22:20:10 <planetmaker> would make it a non-client-side patch :)
22:20:41 <dih> i really see no purpose :-P
22:20:46 <planetmaker> or, rortom is it client-side?
22:21:06 <planetmaker> Yexo: sure. But if I look at the savegame read procedure... yikes!
22:21:07 <rortom> its saved in the Station class
22:21:12 <Antdovu> if it will make the trunk then it won't be compatible with most multiplayer games anyway...
22:21:12 <planetmaker> it's confusing as it is :)
22:22:05 <dih> rortom, are you saying that data is not stored in a save game?
22:22:17 <dih> so on a multiplayer game people will have different values?
22:22:23 <dih> that will get people started
22:22:30 <Yexo> it is indeed. Antdovu: why would it be imcopatible with most multiplayer games anyway it is hits trunk?
22:22:39 <dih> and one can imagine the overload of useless reports on bugs.
22:23:01 <rortom> i can just remove stats again
22:23:07 <dih> Antdovu, rortom here has some interesting stats you might wanna look at
22:23:09 <rortom> and everyones happy :|
22:23:35 <dih> rortom, not what i mean to say
22:23:44 <dih> just more useful stuff perhaps :-P
22:23:59 <rortom> yes, thats what you should suggest
22:24:19 <Rubidium> SpComb, talking about stats: the stats made out of your log make absolutely no sense
22:24:21 <rortom> since you have more experience
22:24:41 <SpComb> Rubidium: the ones that are offline right now?
22:24:57 <Yexo> rortom: no, he says that if you add stats to the station gui you should do it properly, ie also store that information in the savegame
22:25:02 <SpComb> (seven hour power outage going on there)
22:25:09 <Rubidium> SpComb: I really doubt that e.g. Tron has been active the last few weeks
22:25:16 <SpComb> when were they last generated?
22:25:42 <SpComb> probably some time ago, when Tron was active
22:25:57 <Yexo> dih: then I'm lost. What did you want to say?
22:25:59 <rortom> Yexo: let me first fix the style, then we look further ;)
22:26:21 * SpComb wrote a large hunk of C++ code today, but hasn't had a chance to compile it yet
22:26:28 <rortom> btw, are the language strings in the patch OK?
22:26:39 <planetmaker> SpComb: on what topic / patch did you write it?
22:26:46 <SpComb> not related to OpentTD
22:27:01 <SpComb> networking code for a real-time 2D game using ClanLib
22:28:30 * SpComb may as well be off as well
22:30:11 *** thingwath has joined #openttd
22:30:40 <Cornflower> how do you do the pink text thing?
22:31:59 * Cornflower wrote a bunch of code today also, has compiled it, but refuses to release it.
22:33:05 <Rubidium> I don't see any pink text
22:33:57 <Cornflower> Looks pink to me...
22:34:09 <Antdovu> that's your IRC client making it so :P
22:35:24 <Cornflower> Aha. That make since...
22:36:33 <Cornflower> I blame my computer...
22:37:15 <Rubidium> you can't blame the computer
22:37:28 <Rubidium> a computer can't do anything wrong
22:38:07 <Rubidium> it's always boils down to human error of some kind
22:38:15 <planetmaker> Rubidium: not quite true. You have random bit flips. Rarely :)
22:38:29 <planetmaker> but there's use for radiation hardened equipment :)
22:38:51 <Antdovu> I have a huge radiation source right next to my computer just so I can blame it
22:39:12 <Rubidium> planetmaker: that's humans assuming nothing goes wrong and being too lame to make sure the assumption holds
22:39:19 <planetmaker> for a reason, maned space craft have tripple computers which compare
22:40:38 <Cornflower> I can blame my computer. I'm using Dragon NaturallySpeaking.
22:40:49 <planetmaker> Rubidium: that's, I guess, a matter of definition of "computer cannot do anything wrong". To my definition it is. As it's non-deterministic behaviour
22:41:30 <Eddi|zuHause> you have a problem with non-deterministic computers?
22:41:32 <Rubidium> Cornflower: no, you have to blame either the authors of the software or yourself for not properly calibrating it
22:42:27 <Antdovu> can CMD_SET_COMPANY_MANAGER_FACE fail?
22:42:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: you always find someone who you can blame, you just have to dig deep enough
22:43:38 *** gauthier_ has joined #openttd
22:43:50 <Cornflower> Ok, I blame the same factor that causes xlm files to be the same.
22:44:32 * Nite_Owl cues Twilight Zone theme music
22:44:36 <Nite_Owl> Rod Serling: Submitted for your approval. The story of a chat room from which there is no escape. Users can log off but once they do they find themselves in the unreal and incredibly dull world of reality. It is often said that such a world can crush your soul in mere minutes. So if you do log off remember that you just might end up in... The Twilight Zone.
22:46:08 <Cornflower> Nite_Owl, you just posted that on #tycoon. However, I like it.
22:46:32 <Nite_Owl> variations on a theme
22:47:08 <Nite_Owl> here music then speech - there speech then music
22:48:20 *** gauthier_ is now known as gauthier
22:49:03 <rortom> yeah, just blame me for everything :|
22:49:25 <rortom> btw i search a small drawing engine that combines 2d and 3d
22:49:34 <rortom> like clutter, just not so big
22:50:06 *** [com]buster has joined #openttd
22:50:09 <benjamingoodger> rortom: pygame?
22:51:29 <rortom> benjamingoodger: nice idea, why didnt i thought about that one
22:52:43 <Nite_Owl> Hunger rules all - later
22:58:42 * Cornflower is leaving to finish program, then torture locomotion players with it.
23:21:04 <Antdovu> CmdSetCompanyColor isn't actually used? :S
23:22:46 <Yexo> grep tells me it's called from company_gui.cpp line 488
23:36:10 <rortom> like that? > if ( st->months_gone_by >= 13 ) {
23:39:14 <ReiNDeer> Hey, im trying to start 'openttd -D' but get "libSDL-1.2.so.0: cannot open shared object file" this is on FC8, dedicated host. just to install whats missing or..?
23:39:47 <SpComb> ReiNDeer: build without SDL or install it
23:39:53 <SpComb> but a dedicated server doesn't nee SDL
23:41:21 <Progman> but this openttd build needs it ;)
23:41:22 <ReiNDeer> oh, but it still complains about it, im using generig binary
23:42:11 <ReiNDeer> yeah, and to build i need the..SDL-devel 1.2.5 (or higher)
23:42:13 *** benjamingoodger has quit IRC
23:43:09 <SpComb> can't you `./configure --enable-dedicated`?
23:43:31 <ReiNDeer> this is on a dedicated game host, so i dont know what tools i got to build..
23:43:45 <ReiNDeer> i can try anything though..
23:44:29 <ReiNDeer> so i should get the source and build, using ./configure --enable-dedicated?
23:49:05 <ReiNDeer> so the SDL is "needed", because im using binary version, and it is compiled into it? But a dedicated server does not actually need one, right?
23:51:53 <SpComb> I think there used to be downloadable dedicated binaries, but they phased them out
23:52:56 <ReiNDeer> ok, hmm..well would it be possible to build on another system and then just transfer the resulting openttd bin to the server?
23:55:19 <Eddi|zuHause> as long as the libraries and architecture are the same, that should be easily possible
23:55:44 <Eddi|zuHause> for more difficult crosscompiling, you need a build environment that is prepared for the target architecture
23:56:39 <ReiNDeer> i see, im no expert as you can see, but do understand that it is not that easy as make-->copy
23:56:52 <ReiNDeer> and im using Ubuntu, gameserver is on FC8
23:58:06 <ReiNDeer> well im gonna try to build it now at the host, hope they dont FRAG me for trying to compile on a ded game server system :-P nah..
23:59:50 <ReiNDeer> nope, no gcc binary on this system..
continue to next day ⏵
