IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-10-22
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00:42:37 <Eddi|zuHause> what exactly do you mean?
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06:33:56 <SmatZ> I was so tired yesterday so I fell asleep...
06:34:15 <SmatZ> and I woke up at 7am, that's strange :-x
06:36:26 * petern is, forcibly, woken at 7 every day :o
06:37:42 <dih> i am trying to be at work everyday before 8
06:37:51 <dih> then i can go home earlier :-D
06:38:12 <petern> with the disadvantage of starting earlier
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06:56:16 <dih> ... hehe .... good yawning :-P
07:13:38 <dih> anybody here able to solve a trac error?
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08:16:31 <MURRAY> AND HAPPY INTERNATIONAL CAPSLOCK DAY
08:16:42 <planetmaker> OpenTTD ludituri vos salutant!
08:18:22 <Doorslammer> These Romans are crazy
08:23:26 <planetmaker> OpenTTD competition in circus maximus :P
08:23:44 <planetmaker> only the winner won't be fed to the lions :P
08:34:48 <Celestar> The indians have launched their first lunar spacecraft this morning.
08:35:06 <Celestar> and the Europeans still sit on their fat butts doin' nuttin' in that regard.
08:36:30 <Doorslammer> Um, they have ESA, Ariane etc.
08:36:54 <Doorslammer> Mind you, its all launched in French Guiana or something aint it?
08:40:59 <roboboy> what of source forges services did OpenTTD use?
08:41:35 <roboboy> / what sf services has OpenTTD used?
08:43:35 <petern> bug tracker and file hosting
08:43:41 <Celestar> Doorslammer: yes. and they still haven't managed to send as much as a a grain of salt to a lunar orbit.
08:44:00 <Celestar> let alone lunar surface
08:44:34 <petern> i'd've said svn if it had
08:44:52 <roboboy> so just hosting the compiled version?
08:45:08 <petern> hosting the releases, including source
08:45:29 <roboboy> was the reason OpenTTD moved that the site was unreliable and slow?
08:45:36 <petern> sf is fucking shit, yesz
08:48:00 * Doorslammer looks for Ariane 5 explosion
08:48:27 <Zuu> While the sf service is free it is not the best for productive work.
08:51:39 <Celestar> the Ariane 5 has an ... acceptable success rate.
08:51:53 <Celestar> no comparison against the Delta, Titan or Progress unfortunately.
08:53:10 <Doorslammer> Maybe, I cant remember it now, it was big news at the time
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08:54:36 <Doorslammer> Thats the one, just found it
08:54:58 <Celestar> 157 went badly wrong as well
08:55:13 <Celestar> and two more partial failures
08:55:20 <Doorslammer> Oh? What one was that?
08:55:47 <Celestar> the first flight went off course and was detonated back in 1996
08:56:19 <Celestar> and the first flight of the EC-A variant in 2002 had a failed upper stage
08:56:49 <Doorslammer> Bit crap, aren't they?
08:57:40 <Celestar> but if SpaceX can get their Falcon 9 Heavy right, Ariane will be out of business.
08:58:44 <Celestar> more payload, much lower cost
09:00:00 <Celestar> and at least theoretically a much higher reliability
09:00:33 <Celestar> but first they need to launch the Falcon 9 (non-heavy) onto her maiden flight
09:01:48 <Celestar> the Falcon 9 will be man-rated.
09:02:05 <Celestar> the Ariane 5 is actually man-ratable.
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09:17:58 <dih> 10:23 < planetmaker> only the winner won't be fed to the lions :P <- can we do coop?
09:23:56 <dih> yes - ok Celestar, we'll let you coop with us :-P
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09:30:25 <TrueBrain> can I arrange the lions?
09:30:38 <Eddi|zuHause> according to some past future predictions, we should have extensive moon habitats by now :p
09:31:24 <planetmaker> the warp drive is not far ahead on the invention schedule :P
09:31:28 <planetmaker> Nor the rising of magic.
09:31:34 <planetmaker> Depends upon whom you trust.
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09:39:34 * TrueBrain waves #openttd a good day ... work is upon me
09:44:30 <Celestar> TrueBrain: you arrange the lions, I arrange the code so that I will win :P
09:44:59 * Celestar loves Alt+SysRq+b :D
09:45:50 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: we could easily have several moon bases by now if mankind wasn't that busy trying to kill each other and breaking each other's stuff
09:46:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not so sure about that... mankind would never have left the atmosphere if it wasn't trying to kill each other
09:47:36 <Eddi|zuHause> space flight is merely a small side product of military rocketry
09:48:39 <Celestar> and that's the fundamental fiscal problem we have in spaceflight
09:48:52 <Celestar> it's never been made to be efficient
09:49:33 <Eddi|zuHause> both the russian and the american rocket programs are based heavily on german research during the war
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09:54:17 <dih> 11:45 * Celestar loves Alt+SysRq+b <- without s and u?
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10:16:40 * Brianetta prefers Alt-SysRq-o
10:17:47 <Brianetta> When I press Alt-SysRq, Compiz asks me where to save the screenshot )-:
10:18:54 <DorpsGek> scarabeus: TrueBrain was last seen in #openttd 39 minutes and 18 seconds ago: <TrueBrain> bye :)
10:19:25 <scarabeus> again in wrong time :]
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10:25:13 <dih> Brianetta: try ctrl+alt+sysRq
10:29:04 <Mortal> isn't it called print screen?
10:30:16 <Brianetta> Mortal: Alt-SysRq is supposed to be intercepted by the Linux kernel, regardles of other functions.
10:31:18 <dih> but you can enable a sysrq-trigger file in /proc
10:31:32 <dih> and then simply echo b > /proc/sysrq-trigger
10:32:01 <Eddi|zuHause> is there any information on what these sysrqs do?
10:33:02 <dih> there is also e, but i cannot remember what that one is for
10:35:55 <SpComb> raising elephants is so utterly boring
10:37:04 <dih> no - elephants are fun... esp the little ones
10:37:15 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: sysrq (h)elp, presumeably, there's also some kind of list on wikipedia, under "Magic SysRq key"
10:37:18 <yorick> no, skinny ones are much better
10:37:18 <dih> and always to be had for some fun
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10:37:25 <dih> jsut the mother gets in the way :-D
10:38:04 * SpComb had to REISUB his workstation a couple times last week
10:38:18 <SpComb> X got completely stuck when you logged out or closed/killed the session
10:38:32 <SpComb> and then it started detecting three nonexistant USB devices every second
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10:47:51 <Brianetta> Magic SysRq *is* enabled. It just doesn't work in X.
10:48:08 <Brianetta> This makes it: A fat load of use.
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10:56:52 <dih> Brianetta: even with ctrl+alt+sysrq?
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11:32:50 <Celestar> while [ 1 ]; do beep; done
11:35:07 <dih> Celestar: that would be something to do on a dedicated server :-D
11:35:10 <Celestar> the problem is, this gets ssh-forwarded :(
11:35:24 <Celestar> I need to do it on a remote box :S
11:35:37 <dih> you can configure xterm how to handle bell
11:35:46 <dih> or put the connection in screen and configure screen
11:36:31 <Celestar> in screen I could only find stuff about the visual bell
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11:39:27 <Celestar> man there must be a way to trigger the system beeper of a remote box :S
11:40:29 <Eddi|zuHause> echo the bell character to a terminal not in your ssh session?
11:45:00 <Celestar> or any other way to make a computer generate noise (apart the coolers & disks)
11:46:18 <Celestar> can't. a process is running which I shouldn't interrput
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11:46:47 <Celestar> isn't pulseaudio a little over the top? :P
11:46:49 <dih> Celestar: how about somthing in proc?
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11:47:01 <dih> or find how to create a character device for it :-P
11:47:19 <dih> perhaps there is something in /proc that will trigger the system bell to beep
11:47:37 <dih> or perhaps there is a device you can create with mknod
11:48:35 <Celestar> there's /dev/dsp but that's not the speaker
11:48:46 <dih> but what if there is no speaker?
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11:49:33 <yorick> there's always a speaker...
11:49:36 <dih> else a small c app should be able to do it
11:50:03 <dih> yorick: not true, but that is not what i wanted to say
11:50:12 <dih> i wanted to say, what if there is no audio configured
11:50:22 <dih> perhaps dsp then outputs to the speaker
11:50:23 <Celestar> dih: system beep, not audio (=
11:50:40 <yorick> system beep is likely to be there
11:50:44 <dih> if dsp has nothing to output to, the system might beep, all i am wanting to say
11:50:54 <Celestar> dsp is configured apparently, because I've already tried cat /boot/vmlinuz > /dev/dsp
11:51:12 <dih> i once managed to play songs via the pc speaker :-D
11:51:50 <dih> not present on all systems, however, it will prob be easy to create it with mknod
11:51:56 <glx> pc usually don't have real speaker now
11:51:58 <dih> just need the correct params
11:52:18 <dih> they have a we little beeper
11:52:29 <dih> and if it's too loud you put a drop of hot glue on it
11:52:40 <dih> and it can do more than just 'beep'
11:53:03 <yorick> can it beep with multiple tones?
11:53:25 <Celestar> I need to locate this damn box
11:53:40 <yorick> you forgot where it is?
11:53:54 <dih> and beep does not work (the command)?
11:54:22 <Celestar> beep outputs to the ssh session
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11:54:42 <dih> Celestar: trigger it via a cron job :-P
11:54:43 <yorick> or could it be possible that you are sshing to your own machine?
11:54:58 <Celestar> since I know the location of that one :P
11:55:23 <petern> though it's hard to hear ;D
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11:55:57 <petern> ah, i can hear 2200Hz well
11:55:59 <yorick> I wonder if openttd will output the BELL char to the terminal...
11:56:23 <petern> now to scare colleagues ;D
11:56:33 <Celestar> petern: how are you doing this :D
11:57:31 <petern> coo, you can make it play music ;)
11:58:57 <petern> for i in {20..30}; do beep -l 100 -f ${i}00; done
11:59:35 <Celestar> that puts out a string to my console :P
12:00:25 <dih> Celestar: have 'beep' processed by busybox? :-P
12:00:41 <Sacro> never trust any command that needs to be setuid root
12:01:17 <Celestar> which: no beep in (/sbin:/usr/sbin:/usr/local/sbin:/root/bin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/bin/X11:/usr/X11R6/bin:/usr/games:/opt/kde3/bin:/usr/lib64/jvm/jre/bin:/usr/lib/mit/bin:/usr/lib/mit/sbin:/usr/lib/qt3/bin)
12:02:34 * Celestar goes doing some WORK
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12:04:44 <petern> well you'll have to install it then
12:04:54 <petern> oddly enough, these things have to be installed to work ;)
12:05:08 <Celestar> this clearly isn't my day
12:05:13 <Celestar> I can't read files from the cluster
12:05:24 <petern> now i need something to convert musical notes to frequencies...
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12:05:47 <petern> i was meaning "not manually"
12:06:03 <Celestar> every note above/below is *2^(1/12) more/less
12:06:04 <glx> I'm quite sure a tool exists
12:06:13 <Celestar> yeah, it's called "piano"
12:09:17 <Brianetta> My piano has USB MIDI support
12:09:59 <dih> you could connect it to my lovely mac and start recording various instruments using garage band
12:10:31 <Brianetta> or I could connect it to my lovely Linux PCs and have OpenTTD's music come out rendered by the glorious Roland GM2 processor.
12:11:27 <Brianetta> Yes. They let me borrow for it.
12:11:47 <Brianetta> Couldn't afford £1800 otherwise.
12:12:25 <Brianetta> I thought they were Japanese
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12:15:01 <Brianetta> I can't find any evidence supporting the assertion that they're a Christian company.
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12:20:53 <dih> could be that it's just the branch in germany
12:22:45 <yorick> "...is a Japanese manufacturer"
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12:24:00 <dih> yorick: that does not say that it's not christian :-P
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12:24:18 <yorick> you've seen christian japanese?
12:25:11 <dih> i know chinese christians - in fact there are many many of them
12:25:21 <dih> underground church groups
12:25:45 <yorick> much is wrong with that
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12:26:30 <dih> Roland was at the Promicon 2007
12:26:40 <dih> and nothing is wrong with that at all
12:27:26 <yorick> lets go into the christian - atheist bash topic
12:28:32 <dih> yorick: if you have an issue with roland supporting christians then visit them, send them a letter, phone them
12:28:40 <keyweed_> which side are we on?
12:28:59 <dih> at least that is what the young kid believes he is :-D
12:29:05 <dih> uh oh - i used the wrong word
12:30:28 <dih> anything wrong with that word?
12:30:31 <yorick> what would you consider an "old kid" then
12:30:32 <keyweed_> i'm an agnost and usually considder myself neutral, but i can argue from any side :)
12:30:48 <yorick> keyweed_: at least I know...
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12:30:58 <dih> yorick: no - you dont know anything
12:31:09 <keyweed_> at least i'm smart enough to know my human limitations.
12:31:23 <dih> they are always quite obvious :-P
12:33:53 <yorick> (talking about the whales, not about the humans and/or limitations)
12:34:38 <dih> i was just about to ask if that was a racist comment
12:35:13 <Brianetta> <yorick> you've seen christian japanese?
12:35:26 <Brianetta> Yes, yorick: My aunt
12:35:56 <yorick> your aunt is japanese?
12:36:21 <Brianetta> My aunt is Japanese, yes, and she's a Christian.
12:36:48 <Brianetta> Her husband, my uncle, is Australian. They teach English in Hiroshima.
12:37:14 <dih> 14:36 * yorick touches Brianetta <-- WTF
12:37:18 <Brianetta> It didn't *stay* bombed.
12:37:30 <dih> yorick: you should pay more attention at school
12:37:50 <dih> you seemingly only have picked up bits and pieces
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12:38:19 <yorick> they only teach me about china
12:39:06 <dih> well - there are christians too :-P
12:39:50 <yorick> wasn't it something with nuclear bombs that people can't live there?
12:40:18 <Brianetta> FOr a time, perhaps
12:40:26 <Brianetta> but it was, what, over 60 years ago
12:40:29 <glx> and it was a "small" bomb
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12:42:22 <keyweed_> they sill have more birth defects and cancer there though.
12:43:11 <dih> had the bom exploded a few meters above the ground it would have had a worse effect...
12:44:15 <Brianetta> killed more people instantly, but fewer long-term
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12:45:13 <dih> educational hour to be continued when the kid returnes
12:45:33 <Brianetta> The state of education today is shocking.
12:45:41 <Brianetta> I blame the fall of the Berlin Wall.
12:45:59 <Brianetta> "Why's that there?" is a question that led to *everything
12:46:01 <dih> that has like nothing to do with it
12:46:32 <Brianetta> My wife only knows what I've taught her about the Cold War
12:46:41 <Brianetta> She was born in 1982
12:46:47 <dih> blame the stasi for a few in the DDR, but fall of the wall being blamed for bad education in europe/the world?
12:47:06 <dih> Brianetta: i was born in 82
12:47:07 <keyweed_> i think 'the simpsons' are also to blame.
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12:47:52 <Brianetta> dih: I think the Berlin Wall was an abhorrent creation, sure, but it was a concrete representative of so much history, in a figurative and literal sense.
12:48:18 <Brianetta> I never saw the Berlin Wall, but I did stand at the main east/west border in Bavaria
12:48:25 <Brianetta> The world just ended there
12:48:47 <keyweed_> when the ddr stoped spying on its own citizens, someone had fill the gap
12:48:55 <Brianetta> Helen and I went to Berlin last Christmas
12:49:00 <keyweed_> now all western goverments have stasi-like monitoring systems.
12:49:04 <Brianetta> That city is as cool as f***
13:07:06 <Belugas> dih: what do I should know?
13:07:12 <Eddi|zuHause> <Brianetta> I never saw the Berlin Wall, but I did stand at the main east/west border in Bavaria <- it was not as funny from the other side...
13:07:13 <Belugas> hello all, by the way
13:08:23 <Eddi|zuHause> although, as i was only 8 years old, most of the bad stuff i kinda did not experience
13:09:12 <Vikthor> (15:07:11) Eddi|zuHause: <Brianetta> I never saw the Berlin Wall, but I did stand at the main east/west border in Bavaria <- it was not as funny from the other side... -- and it's not like it wasn't possible to cross it(even legally)
13:09:50 <Brianetta> Vikthor: I was at Eußenhausen. Being a checkpoint, security was tighter for a good few miles each way.
13:09:53 <Eddi|zuHause> it was possible, but basically only if you were above 65 years old
13:09:59 <Brianetta> I was only there on a school exchange trip.
13:10:32 <LN> probably easier the other direction?
13:10:42 <Vikthor> Eddi|zuHause: Not true, at least for Czechoslovakia
13:11:04 <Eddi|zuHause> my mother was once allowed to cross the border, because a relative died. but that was only possible because she could not take family members with her, so she had reasons to come back
13:12:04 <Brianetta> The DDR was probably the most authoritarian government in the Warsaw Pact. Even more so than the USSR.
13:12:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i know "Uncle Walther" from Wolfsburg only from photos
13:12:11 <LN> my mother went to buy a train ticket to the west in DDR, and the person behind the desk had been quite surprised.
13:12:40 <Vikthor> My aunt married a Frenchman in '68 and later according to international treaties on human rights goverment had to allow at least one trip a year for whole family
13:13:41 <Eddi|zuHause> there was regular cross border traffic anyway, because of the transit zones from west germany to west berlin
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13:14:40 <Belugas> mmh... guess it's the time for my medecine
13:15:54 <Zuu> Going off-topic from the DDR/religious discussions, is there a tool out there that can simplify my work of keeping code seperated into diferent subsequent patches? Would be cool if I could tell Tortoise SVN that for this directory tree use patch, X, Y and Z + trunk as base for this directory. Anyone knowing something I can look into?
13:16:14 <blathijs> Zuu: I think you should look into quilt
13:16:23 <blathijs> Not sure if it is available on Windows, though
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13:17:57 <Belugas> Zuu, mostly, i have my repos named upon what they are meant to do
13:20:15 <Zuu> repos being checked out source trees or do you have a local SVN to which you commit code for the diferent patches?
13:22:42 <Sacro> actually, that might be able to do it
13:22:57 <Sacro> and then pull changes from trunk and merge yourself
13:23:16 <Belugas> at work, i have 4 "standard" repos, which i put work i did at home on. So if ever i need to commit something from work, i have to choose and commit from those 4 . Unless it's not a commit related to any work in progress, in that case, i have a general repo
13:23:54 <Belugas> at home, it's the free-for-all. i have about a dozen repos, spread on 2 disks. whatever is required is used as a commit one
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13:24:20 <Belugas> and with visualvsn, i just commit right from the MSVC environnement
13:24:37 <Belugas> that is, when i do commit... which is a bit rare lately ;)
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13:25:02 <Sacro> I use visualhg from VS2005
13:25:13 <Sacro> and I have TortoiseHG installed for explorer
13:25:26 <Sacro> mainly cos SVN confuses me
13:25:49 <Belugas> i promised myself to try hg once. promised still pending to be fulfilled
13:26:09 <Celestar> analysing two terabytes of data is boring
13:26:23 <Zuu> SVN works so far, just that having to maintain many subsequently depending patches becomes quite some work.
13:26:24 <batti5> im sorry about this guys, i tried my best to respect the rules, if it would be possible to avoid a permanent ban, this suff will not repeat ever.
13:26:31 <SpComb> Celestar: first step is to load it all into memory
13:28:24 <batti5> i just tried to be a good ttdforum member, i did not intened to due any harm.
13:28:57 <SmatZ> yeah, what's bad about tomboys thread?
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13:30:40 <SmatZ> as there is "Pretty girls" thread...
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13:31:42 <Belugas> zuu: at home, it's mostly Tortoise and VisualVSN. At work, it's purely VSN . it works quite well :)
13:34:24 <Zuu> I would love to get my hands on VS non-express so I can use ViEmu and other plugins, but don't feel like signing the MS academic license which I think is to restrictive nor cracing it.
13:35:36 <SmatZ> you can code in vim :-)
13:35:55 <Aali> Zuu: seems i was a little late to this discussion but you want mercurial queues
13:36:48 <Zuu> SmatZ: But using an external editor to an IDE gives you problems, but yes I fire up gVIM sometimes.
13:36:57 <Zuu> Aali: Not to late, thank you for your suggestion.
13:38:17 <Aali> it will let you keep a number of patches in a list, with simple commands to reverse/apply patches
13:41:08 <Aali> so you can move to any patch in the list and the repo will contain original files + any patches up to and including the one your working on
13:42:19 <Aali> make some small change, refresh the patch (saving those changes) and move back down to the end of the list and you've got all your patches applied again
13:42:54 <Aali> its really great once you get the hang of it
13:43:23 <Aali> definitely blows SVN out of the water
13:43:51 <blathijs> Zuu: But it seems quite un-google-able, I picked this url out of the Debian package :-)
13:44:16 <Zuu> blathijs: Thanks, indeed the other one I found seamed a bit out of the place.
13:44:18 <Aali> oh and mercurial queues is based on quilt
13:44:25 <Aali> so they should be quite similar
13:44:44 <blathijs> Zuu: I haven't actually worked with quilt before, only tried a bit once
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14:27:35 <Swallow> I'm (still) having a strange problem with my new memory pool...
14:27:50 <Swallow> new (0) Restriction() works fine
14:28:24 <Swallow> but new Restriction() causes a freeze for several seconds, and then the game closes, without error message whatsoever
14:28:40 <Swallow> Can anyone point me in the right direction?
14:30:11 <glx> Swallow: is there a diff somewhere?
14:30:34 <Celestar> new (0) looks bad to me
14:31:13 <glx> Celestar: no it forces the pool index
14:31:13 <glx> but it's used on game load only IIRC
14:31:25 <Celestar> so an overloaded new operator?
14:32:30 <Swallow> new Restriction() also uses an overloaded new operator IIRC, albeit a different one
14:32:52 <Rubidium> Swallow: I guess your "default" constructor doesn't initialize a new pool item as invalid, causing OpenTTD to not find an "empty" index, making more items which also aren't empty ....
14:33:03 <Rubidium> until the pool is completely full and it blows
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14:33:29 <Rubidium> and overriding the new constructor might cause big problems too
14:34:21 <Hirundo> Rubidium, that's a good one, give me a minute to check some stuff.
14:35:32 <Hirundo> I think the default constructor was the problem...
14:35:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see anything to be ashamed of
14:36:34 <Eddi|zuHause> don't ever be ashamed of errors
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14:38:17 <Hirundo> Well, anyway, many thanks :)
14:38:34 * Hirundo continues patch-writing happily
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15:02:40 <scarabeus> TrueBrain: well again just testing if you are around, poke me if you get here :]
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15:05:10 <fjb> Are true and false defined in C today?
15:05:43 <frosch123> sometimes yes, sometimes no
15:08:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the compiler will usually tell you if it isn't :p
15:09:25 <frosch123> iso c++ 98 defines "false" and "true" as reserved keywords
15:09:43 <Eddi|zuHause> that is C++, not C
15:10:06 <frosch123> yes, I interpreted "C today" as C++
15:11:03 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a problem of the naming, because C++ is technically not really a "successor" to C, more a parallel language development
15:12:11 <Eddi|zuHause> "french" is not "latin++" either...
15:12:14 <frosch123> sure, there are also people using csh
15:15:36 <fjb> I simply don't use true ore false if I can not be sure if it is defined in standard C.
15:16:07 <frosch123> in standard c you can hardly use anything
15:17:28 <frosch123> e.g. you can configure some c compilers, so that they do not allow variable declarations inside "for", e.g. "for (int i = 0; ...)"
15:21:09 * frosch123 always says: when object oriented programming would have been introduced in a c style way, "public" would have been represented by "**" and "private" by "***". "protected" would have been "****" as it was added later
15:21:52 <frosch123> though "*" is far to common, maybe "°"
15:22:23 <DaleStan> But that's not 7-bit clean.
15:23:05 <frosch123> hmm true, I thought it was
15:24:26 <DaleStan> One of `, @, or $, more likely -- they are 7-bit clean, and with no defined meaning AFAIK.
15:26:28 <Eddi|zuHause> $ reminds me of basic...
15:26:50 <petern> Belugas, they're being crazy
15:27:10 <frosch123> Belugas: I remember you saying that once before, but I also did not understood it there...
15:27:27 <Belugas> "hein" is like... "huuu"
15:27:38 <Belugas> or "what the fuck are you saying"
15:30:06 <frosch123> Belugas: I was just elaborating that c++ would be a nice language, if it wasn't based on c
15:31:01 <Belugas> well... i'm pretty happy with what Delphi offers, so i compensate :)
15:31:06 <Eddi|zuHause> C++ would be a much nicer language if it was based on python :p
15:31:39 <Eddi|zuHause> (actually, i am really amazed of the python syntax)
15:31:46 <frosch123> is python the language with the imporant indenting, or was that php?
15:31:58 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, python is with the indenting
15:32:09 <Eddi|zuHause> which you should do anyway, because of coding style
15:32:44 <Eddi|zuHause> the advantage is, that you can leave out those pesky {}, which are difficult to type on localized keyboards
15:33:43 <LN> one needs to indent what one intends.
15:34:09 <frosch123> the disadvantage is that you cannot copy&paste temporary code, and that you cannot use with crappy editors that do not show white space and add spaces and tabs to their liking
15:34:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure if you add static types and some declarative sugar you can easily design a compiled language worthy of replacing C++
15:34:34 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the space/tab issue is a problem
15:35:27 <Zuu> And if typing {} is a problem changing keyboard layout can be an option.
15:35:51 <frosch123> or you can use "begin" and "end
15:36:08 <frosch123> or if you are more the 60/70ths gui, use "if" and "fi" :p
15:37:02 <Eddi|zuHause> latex is a little worse with the bracket structure...
15:37:36 <frosch123> I guess I once searched "esac" in a dictionary, when I was not used to such stuff :)
15:38:20 * Zuu hugs his altgr-based keyboard layout with special keys on the "normal" alphabetical keys + alt gr.
15:38:46 <frosch123> isn't that standard for non-windows ?
15:39:14 <Eddi|zuHause> those characters are not particularly useful in programming languages :p
15:39:32 <Zuu> ;/()| = first five keys on my homerow (with alt gr)
15:39:33 <Eddi|zuHause> and especially not in non-utf8 environments
15:39:48 <LN> does python support non-ascii in identifiers?
15:40:17 <frosch123> reminds me, german keyboard contains a "§" key, which was in the range 0-31 under dos
15:40:26 <frosch123> some programs were killed by pressing it...
15:40:39 <Eddi|zuHause> but in strings, if you add an encoding line at the top of the file
15:40:40 <LN> Eddi|zuHause: how sad. java *sort of* does doesn't it.
15:40:47 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: oh yeah, i remember that ;)
15:41:16 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but most programs just ignored the key
15:41:51 <Eddi|zuHause> but § IS an important character in bureaucracy-regulated germany ;)
15:42:03 <Zuu> I'd say that variable names should stay in English, so need for non-ascii characters is low.
15:43:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: german has very specific rules on how to replace äöüß in environments that do not support these characters
15:44:08 <Belugas> mmh... you and your python...
15:44:16 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: none for ë and ï though
15:45:13 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: those are not part of the german language (most of the time)
15:45:44 <frosch123> yeah, "most of the time"... I hear that sentence often... mainly from customers :s
15:46:47 <Eddi|zuHause> but really, words like the french "naïve" are written with "i" in german even in environments that support ï
15:47:36 * Belugas 's stomach is making disturbing sounds
15:47:50 <frosch123> or names like "daniël"
15:47:53 <Belugas> for once, colleagues do not complain about my music
15:48:19 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: honestly, i have never ever seen that before :p
15:48:46 <LN> Zuu: but what if one wants to write code and doesn't know english?
15:50:04 <Zuu> LN: well, yes I do have made programs with variables in swedish and even worked with programs that has mixed var names, but it become ugly unless you find a programming language that is also in your native language.
15:51:08 <frosch123> something killed that link...
15:51:51 <frosch123> he is named "boëtius"
15:55:24 <Eddi|zuHause> some clients interpret als "colour" command code
15:55:33 <Eddi|zuHause> some clients interpret %C als "colour" command code
15:55:40 <svippery> Some clients sucks. :)
15:55:41 <Eddi|zuHause> like mine, for example :p
15:55:55 <Eddi|zuHause> it's solved here by doubling the %
15:56:10 <Eddi|zuHause> which it does automatically on copy-paste
15:56:13 <Brianetta> In English, the Umlaut is correctly named a "diacritic mark" and signifies that a vowel pair is a diaeresis and not a diphthong.
15:56:36 <svippery> Not only the umlaut, Brianetta, all diacritics are diacritics.
15:56:41 <Brianetta> So naïve is a natively spelled English word.
15:56:43 <svippery> Oh dear, did I just state the obvious?
15:56:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Brianetta: that's because umlaut and diacritic are substantially different things
15:56:47 <planetmaker> If found above e or i, it's the same meaning.
15:56:49 <Brianetta> svippery: 'fraid so
15:56:53 <svippery> Just like mêlée, Brianetta?
15:57:21 <Brianetta> svippery: circumflex and acute. We have specific names for them ones. (:
15:57:30 <svippery> But a combined name?
15:57:39 * Brianetta shrugs and says, "meh."
15:57:49 <svippery> I did not realise "meh" meant that! O_O
15:58:10 <Eddi|zuHause> german spelling rules usually say "you can just leave out this french mess" :p
15:58:33 <svippery> Lucky the Danish spelling rules says "write it how it looks best, regardless of origin".
15:58:37 <Eddi|zuHause> means the words are "naiv" and "Armee"
15:58:51 <Brianetta> Eddi: English rules say that it's an English mess too. We could (although it's unconventional) spell vacuum as vacuüm.
15:59:10 <svippery> Why? Isn't the double u one vowel?
15:59:24 <svippery> A better explain would be cooperation.
15:59:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Brianetta: that'd look significantly wrong in german :p
15:59:34 <svippery> Which the New Yorker continues to spell "coöperation".
15:59:40 <Brianetta> Eddi: Good job it isn't German (:
15:59:59 <Brianetta> That's correct, too. A diacritic oo.
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16:00:21 <Sacro> svippery: no, double u is a consonent
16:00:32 <Eddi|zuHause> everybody just knows that "Vakuum" is spoken with separate vowels, instead of one long vowel (which is usually meant by doubling a vowel)
16:00:35 * Brianetta buries Sacro in mud
16:00:58 * Brianetta tarmacs over that mud
16:01:06 <planetmaker> you spoilt the joke, Sacro :S
16:01:11 *** welshdragon has joined #openttd
16:01:12 <svippery> It's odd though, "coordinate" is used in Danish as "koordinat", but the 'oo' is only one vowel in Danish, which is not common in Danish (to have more than one vowel character create a single vowel).
16:01:17 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: Vakuhm :p
16:01:20 <svippery> In other words, we don't favour vowel clusters.
16:01:36 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: Kuh dich selber :p
16:01:58 <svippery> :) Luckily "vacuum" is spelt "tomluft" in Danish.
16:02:07 <svippery> Which translate literally as "empty air".
16:02:10 <planetmaker> Aotearoa <-- you'll like Maori language, I guess :P
16:03:09 * Zuu waves for nordic languages, let it be Danish in this case :)
16:03:10 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... "Help, i get outperformed by the AI" topics are kinda fun ;)
16:03:28 <svippery> Just shows the logic of English, Belugas.
16:03:32 <svippery> Or rather, lack there of.
16:03:35 <Belugas> in french, it's double v
16:04:01 <svippery> At least we retain some logic.
16:04:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Belugas: in old roman texts you often find U written like V
16:04:22 <svippery> Because they did not have an U.
16:04:34 <Eddi|zuHause> no, they had no V
16:04:38 <planetmaker> Taumatawhakatangihangakoauauotamateapokaiwhenuakitanatahu <-- you also wouldn't want to live near that mountain :)
16:04:39 <Belugas> no, pronunciation changes over time
16:05:26 <planetmaker> wow... 6 vowels in a row o_O
16:05:28 <Roujin> i german, they skip calling w "double something" and give it its own name in the first place :P
16:06:09 *** [alt]buster is now known as [com]buster
16:07:35 <ben_goodger_> what an appalling URL scheme
16:07:53 <ben_goodger_> the person who came up with that ought to be taken to the presence of tim berners-lee and shot as an example
16:08:18 <LN> ben_goodger_: i know, and one can even leave some stuff out of it and it still works.
16:08:24 <Eddi|zuHause> "Phol ende uuodan uuorun zi holza.
16:08:26 <Eddi|zuHause> du uuart demo balderes uolon sin uuoz birenkit."
16:08:37 <ben_goodger_> LN: what's with the caps?
16:09:00 <dih> Brianetta, i looked at the red dwarf stuff - i like it :-)
16:09:15 <Eddi|zuHause> where a modern transcription would replace those either by "W" or by "F"
16:09:15 <LN> ben_goodger_: the international CAPS LOCK DAY is a good opportunity to educate people about the fact that my nick is not "In".
16:09:46 <Eddi|zuHause> [That is the oldest written occurance of old german, btw.]
16:09:48 <ben_goodger_> silly people ought to use a monospace font...
16:10:10 <ben_goodger_> my name has put out a tendril
16:10:16 *** ben_goodger_ is now known as ben_goodger
16:10:34 <Eddi|zuHause> [Actually, that is the only written occurance of old german]
16:15:16 <Eddi|zuHause> LN: TRWTF is the bridge has no emergency stop mechanism for such an occurance
16:15:42 <ben_goodger> quite difficult to pin down a single language to call "old german", I suppose, considering the region was hugely varied in culture and politics for quite a while
16:16:13 <frosch123> LN: Ï ĵüşţ ŵäñţ ţö pöïñţ öüţ ţħäţ ćäpş ïş ćömpöşë föŕ më
16:16:20 <Eddi|zuHause> the correct naming is "old high german" anyway
16:16:34 <frosch123> damn, that took long
16:16:44 <frosch123> and I dislike "p" and "m"
16:16:51 <ben_goodger> frosch123: you forgot the Ps and Ms
16:17:25 <Eddi|zuHause> ben_goodger: the people at that time called their language "frankian" anyway, the word "deutsch" evolved much later
16:17:37 <ben_goodger> well, I suppose the franks did
16:17:46 <ben_goodger> what of the goths?
16:18:02 <ben_goodger> and all the other civilisations I've heard about through Age Of Empires II.... :P
16:18:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the goths were not part of the "frankian empire"
16:18:36 <ben_goodger> no, but they must have spoken a proto-germanic tongue
16:18:36 <Vikthor> frosch123: try this ṕ ḿ :p
16:19:16 <dih> NukeBuster made a server crash by crashing trains :-)
16:19:55 <frosch123> Vikthor: thanks, but my default font, does not even know them :)
16:20:27 <ben_goodger> indeed, ṕ is missing from my display font (but not my interface font)
16:20:38 <Brianetta> dih: Have all eight series on DVD
16:20:51 <Vikthor> it's acute, try fonts with support for Slavic languages
16:21:24 <Eddi|zuHause> displays fine here
16:21:26 <dih> Brianetta, you want to mail the first one to me? i'll mail it back after watching it :-P
16:21:55 <Brianetta> dih: Sign up to lovefilm.com
16:22:14 <Brianetta> Use the code RAF96 and the email address helen@ppcis.org for a referral discount
16:22:30 <Vikthor> though it's strange because none of these two actually makes any sense in Czech and most probably not even in other Slavic languages
16:22:32 <Brianetta> When I say use that address, I mean use it as a referrer
16:23:23 <Brianetta> stick RAF96 into the gift code bit
16:24:12 <dih> openttd: /home/fairplay/openttd/src/rail_map.h:501: bool HasSignalOnTrackdir(Til
16:24:12 <dih> eIndex, Trackdir): Assertion `IsValidTrackdir(trackdir)' failed.
16:24:34 <Eddi|zuHause> ben_goodger: most likely is that the gothic tribes more or less slowly adapted the local (latin) dialects spoken in the lands they invaded (iberia, italy)
16:24:48 <Eddi|zuHause> like the west francs did
16:25:02 <Eddi|zuHause> hence they developed the language "french"
16:25:53 <ben_goodger> my point being, the peoples living in the area now defined as germany cannot have had a single language to call "old german" at any point before the 19th century, which is hardly "old"
16:26:00 <Eddi|zuHause> which is the reason why the east franc population needed a new name for their own language
16:26:49 <Eddi|zuHause> ben_goodger: language historically, "old german" refers to a period around the 8th to the 10th century
16:27:10 <Eddi|zuHause> "middle german" from the 10th to the 14th century
16:27:22 <Eddi|zuHause> and "modern german" from the 14th century onwards
16:27:40 <Eddi|zuHause> german is heavily split in dialects, though
16:28:15 <Eddi|zuHause> which is mainly a north/south split, which explains the "high" and "low" german variants
16:28:21 <ben_goodger> and at the time of "old german", I am under the impression that no language was spoken exclusively in (or throughout) the land that is now germany
16:28:32 <Eddi|zuHause> "high" and "low" referring to the height of the landscape
16:29:29 <Eddi|zuHause> low german, dutch and english being heavily derived from old saxon
16:30:07 <petern> this is why you should all speak english
16:30:29 <petern> it's the 'all inclusive' language
16:31:56 <Eddi|zuHause> ben_goodger: the language difficulties between the dialects only affect people who actually travel, which mainly reduces to the nobility and high clerical layers of the society, in those, often educated, societies, latin evolved as a quasi-standard language
16:32:32 <Eddi|zuHause> later, especially since the 17th century, french took over that part
16:32:32 <dih> now that company passwords are hashed, can they not be stored in the save game on the server?
16:33:02 <Eddi|zuHause> dih: no, as you would not want the hash to be sent to clients
16:36:17 <Ammler> additional passwd file :-)
16:38:16 <dih> Ammler, yeah - htpasswd :-D
16:38:30 <dih> but it's a different hash :-P
16:38:55 <dih> upload your own public key to join this company at a later stage
16:39:18 <Ammler> well, key-pair support would be just awesome
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17:19:40 <dih> have a present for you :-P
17:19:48 <dih> does not work with steamers :-P
17:21:14 <dih> slowly it's paying out to having an autoupgrading nighly :-P
17:28:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Brianetta stopped his nightly server because too many features were developed in branches, and too few differences were between nightlies, so it did not repay the cost of restarting the game and losing the passwords each day
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17:33:10 <dih> i have a new game each day
17:33:31 <dih> and i am after the bug reports, not hosting providing fun :-P
17:33:45 <dih> but nobody has to know that so sshht
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17:44:32 <scarabeus> btw what timezone is TrueBrain?
17:45:18 <frosch123> his timezone, or the timezone of his country?
17:45:26 <Zuu> Belugas [13:21] <SmatZ> comment would be nice
17:45:26 <Zuu> Belugas [13:21] <SmatZ> + } else if (wi->type == WWT_EDITBOX) {
17:45:26 <Zuu> Belugas [13:22] <SmatZ> why that TAB ?
17:45:35 <glx> frosch123: good question ;)
17:52:41 <scarabeus> his would be more usable for me
17:52:51 <scarabeus> since i need to talk to him not to his country
17:53:41 <dih> his bouncer is offline again?
17:53:43 <planetmaker> show time is between 20h and 24h CE(s)T :P
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18:00:48 <Belugas> WWT_EDITBOX)<TAB>{ <- replqce tab by space
18:02:29 <SmatZ> Belugas: PMed already :)
18:04:12 <Zuu> A version 3 is on the way...
18:14:47 <frosch123> damn german forum, I cannot stop laughing :s
18:17:42 <Belugas> hapens on a lot of "external" forums :)
18:19:18 <Zuu> Belugas: You don't need to spend your day reading my longish comment on FS#2375 as the stuff after the dots is what I've said to you earlier.
18:21:40 <frosch123> Zuu: wouldn't it be better to not pass those extra arguments to the constructor but instead overload OpenOSKWindow()
18:21:52 <frosch123> btw. I guess OnOpenOSKWindow would fit better
18:22:13 <Zuu> frosch123: That is a good idea I didn't think of.
18:26:48 <Zuu> OnOpenOSKWindow would call ShowOnScreenKeyboard or would it return the ok/cancel parameters?
18:27:19 <Zuu> Having OpenOSKWindow calling ShowOnScreenKeyboard makes sense, but OnOpenOSKWindow seams less logic to me.
18:27:22 <frosch123> directly calling looks easier and more flexible
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18:28:18 <frosch123> i.e. thinking of cpp-gui, one would move that event to the edit box class
18:30:30 <Zuu> cpp-gui, are there plans to make clases of the widgets? Or just being a wish for future?
18:31:19 <frosch123> it is the standard answer for solving fs#1072 :)
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18:40:05 <LN> what's a nice place to visit in france?
18:41:58 <frosch123> eurodisney of course :)
18:42:05 <LN> Sacro: i thought admiral nelson did his job better?
18:55:59 * Zuu deliveries another version of the unified_open_osk patch and goes and buy pizza :-p
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19:02:05 <Prof_Frink> LN: Anywhere the French aren't.
19:03:22 <frosch123> # [...] und vor Paris steht Mickey Mouse [...]
19:03:25 <LN> Prof_Frink: certain areas of Paris?
19:09:09 <Rubidium> scarabeus: no, that is not applied. Any reasons why it should be applied?
19:09:49 <scarabeus> well mostly we use it in gentoo because it is not working without it if we want to disable/enable iconv based on user needs
19:11:25 <Belugas> "are we going to be sued if we are not PCI Compliant ?"
19:11:46 <Belugas> that is what I call a campaign of fear!
19:12:08 <frosch123> what does pci mean in this case?
19:13:01 <Prof_Frink> frosch123: What a copper sees with.
19:13:33 <Rubidium> scarabeus: that's just plain silly (IMO) because OpenTTD's configure script sets $with_iconv to "0" by default *unless* configure is ran a) on OSX (AFAIK Gentoo is not OSX) or b) with the parameter --with-iconv. If it user needs iconv, run `configure --with-iconv` and if the user doesn't need it run `configure`
19:14:33 <scarabeus> well we have flags $(use_with iconv) and it add -disable -enable based on user settings, so you say if i have iso8869-2 setting instead of utf i wont need iconv?
19:14:36 <petern> Belugas: who's suggesting someone would be sued?
19:15:48 <petern> the best bit about pci-dss is none of the banks are compliant
19:16:07 <Belugas> a customer. we are not yet compliant so far, and the poor customer fears been sued by VISA-MASTERCARD
19:16:57 <Rubidium> scarabeus: I didn't say that
19:17:08 <Belugas> and my boss cannot put in his head that the compliancy just comes when you are STORING a track 2...
19:17:19 <Belugas> being... right... one day i'll make the difference
19:17:50 <Belugas> he thinks that we can avoid compliancy if we do not TOUCH the track2
19:17:56 <Belugas> so let the 3th party do the job
19:18:04 <scarabeus> Rubidium: so we shoud add only --with-iconv and dont add --without-iconv if i get it correct?
19:18:50 <petern> we're currently going through yet another pci-dss audit
19:18:56 <petern> it's total pain in the bum
19:19:04 <petern> every time the requirements have changed slightly
19:19:16 <petern> every time they go through the same stuff that hasn't changed
19:19:29 <Rubidium> scarabeus: --without-iconv doesn't add anything iconv related to the LDFLAGS nor CFLAGS
19:19:33 <petern> and every time they take our word for it
19:20:09 <Belugas> and grab the money at the same time :)
19:20:28 <Belugas> ve heard it cost around 30000$ each time
19:20:38 <scarabeus> oh right i am little tired and reading bady, for us is not working --with-iconv, so if i wont need it in this game if i use iso8859-X i am ok with removing that flag but are you sure it wont cause issues?
19:20:47 <petern> hmm, don't remember exactly, not something i have to deal with
19:21:13 <Belugas> nor do I, but my boss raised it as one of the reasons not to go through it
19:21:19 <Rubidium> scarabeus: I've never used iconv
19:21:27 <Rubidium> scarabeus: but iconv isn't a library?
19:21:27 <petern> i don't think it was that expensive
19:22:09 <scarabeus> Rubidium: actualy i overtaked that patch and there is not in changelog why it was added i am just pretty sure that it does not compile withouot
19:22:30 <Rubidium> scarabeus: have you tried?
19:22:54 <petern> Belugas, the first time we had them in, they demanded we *turn off firewalls* so that they could scan the PCs
19:22:58 <Rubidium> because we have never received any complaints about iconv not compiling from anyone, except gentoo
19:23:02 <petern> i really don't think they understand what they're doing
19:23:14 <petern> actually it wasn't that
19:23:38 <petern> on windows servers, we have windows network disabled... and their system uses that and all the rpc stuff to see what's going on
19:23:59 <petern> so when it can't find that out, instead of flagging it up as secure, it flags it up as unreachable and untested
19:24:23 <Belugas> ho...they were actually trying to sniff your network
19:24:27 <petern> needless to say when we enabled it they complained about remote rpc and the like being enabled
19:24:39 <scarabeus> Rubidium: well is it even anyone using nowdays?
19:24:42 <petern> what their software needs to work
19:24:46 <scarabeus> most of distros is utf
19:24:58 <petern> they're fucking idiots
19:25:21 <scarabeus> Rubidium: btw 0.5 didnt need this patch
19:25:30 <petern> Belugas, yeah, first of all we had to drop the restrictions on the switches, because they're configured only to allow certain hosts...
19:25:47 <petern> pci-dss auditors don't understand security, they understand their scripts.
19:28:32 * Rubidium wonders what library provides iconv; can't find a library with iconv in it's name on my system
19:33:05 <Rubidium> so there's a library called iconv
19:33:37 <Rubidium> and if there's a library called iconv, why can't it link against that?
19:35:32 <Belugas> as usual, petern, as usual... Same when you're doing a certif. "Pass me a debit transaction with a credit". "But i cannot, I check the service code after swiping" "Dont' care, i have that test to verify"
19:37:13 <frosch123> hmm, I have an "iconv.h" but no libiconv, and dev-libs/libiconv is masked and not emerged
19:39:03 <frosch123> iconv.h seems to come from glibc
19:40:41 <scarabeus> /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.3.2/../../../../x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/bin/ld: cannot find -liconv
19:41:00 <scarabeus> it really is not working without that patchie
19:41:08 <frosch123> yup, and configure only checks for iconv.h, which exists
19:41:32 <Rubidium> ah... so that lovely OS called OSX is doing even more non-standard things...
19:41:59 <frosch123> and the "copyright note" of iconv.h refers to glibc, which also contains the symbols defined in the .h
19:42:41 <scarabeus> yeah this is apple issue
19:42:49 <scarabeus> it should not work on any linux this way
19:42:58 <scarabeus> they have that dynlib
19:43:02 <scarabeus> or how they call it
19:43:09 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
19:45:09 <Rubidium> now the question is: what OSes really need -liconv and which ones don't?
19:45:31 <scarabeus> without that liconv
19:45:37 <Sacro> I don't think Arch needs it
19:46:57 <scarabeus> so no need for gentoo and arch
19:47:04 <scarabeus> i would say no need in POSIX systems
19:48:17 <Rubidium> it's just that OSX needs it and is posix compliant
19:48:23 <glx> it's needed for windows :)
19:48:35 <glx> but iconv is optionnal there
19:49:06 <Rubidium> so there needs to be a test that checks whether -liconv is needed or not
19:49:52 <scarabeus> Rubidium: well i think about osX as something that says that it is posix compilant
19:51:12 <Rubidium> only the posix specs are posix compliant ;)
19:52:10 <frosch123> "The libc plug/override mode. This works on GNU/Linux, Solaris and OSF/1 systems only. It is a way to get good iconv support without having glibc-2.1. It installs a library preloadable_libiconv.so. This library can be used with LD_PRELOAD, to override the iconv* functions present in the C library." <- http://www.gnu.org/software/libiconv/
19:52:21 *** XeryusTC is now known as Xeryus|bnc
19:52:45 <frosch123> that that mean, only those have iconv included in glibc?
19:53:11 <scarabeus> it is for those whom does not have >=glibc-2.1
19:53:22 <scarabeus> i am looking on virtual
19:53:37 <scarabeus> and here we pull it only if user does not have this or use fbsd and other
19:54:22 *** Xeryus|bnc is now known as XeryusTC
19:57:10 <scarabeus> i hope you will integtrate some patching in next release so i wont be forced to patch it :]
19:57:48 *** [com]buster has joined #openttd
19:58:03 <Rubidium> scarabeus: the above should solve your issue
20:01:34 <scarabeus> no patches in gentoo for next release
20:01:44 <scarabeus> (i might convince mr_bones to add it into main tree now)
20:01:53 <scarabeus> read with next release ;]
20:04:07 <planetmaker> Rubidium: works here with r14409.
20:11:11 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
20:13:31 <LN> 01:11 < fjb> Is Bjarni back tomorrow?
20:13:31 <LN> 01:12 < ln> fjb: based on the fact that he wasn't here today or yesterday, i'd say yes, he'll
20:13:34 <LN> be here tomorrow at 11:03 CET.
20:14:27 <fjb> Hi Bjarni, we were thinking about you yesterday because somebody had the idea of an kick day.
20:15:09 <Bjarni> ok, what did Sacro do this time?
20:16:28 *** Osai^Kendo is now known as Osai
20:19:42 <Bjarni> looks like he did the unmentionable :(
20:24:49 *** Nite_Owl has joined #openttd
20:25:50 <Bjarni> it's always LN's fault
20:26:00 <SmatZ> 4 patches in 4 minutes, and DorpsGek is quiet :)
20:26:05 <Bjarni> that's why we prefer ln
20:26:18 <Rubidium> scarabeus: DorpsGek isn't quiet
20:26:59 <Eddi|zuHause> your tab failure detector needs to kick in earlier ;)
20:27:17 <Eddi|zuHause> it should be a pre-msg-hook :p
20:27:21 <scarabeus> well cia is not working whole day for us in gentoo
20:27:23 <Rubidium> why doesn't tab completion use brainwaves to determine what user to talk to
20:27:50 <scarabeus> well it works for me in tabcomp in weechat
20:27:55 <Rubidium> their mail server probably is
20:27:59 <scarabeus> but in this quassel i am scared even to write whois
20:28:34 <Bjarni> I like how that tab failure made scarabeus active in this channel :D
20:29:13 <Eddi|zuHause> # I'm not dead just floating
20:29:25 <Eddi|zuHause> # I'm not scared just changing
20:29:26 <frosch123> Bjarni: he was active until you joined :p
20:30:07 <Eddi|zuHause> [22.10.2008 22:03] <scarabeus> s/read/read as/
20:30:12 <Eddi|zuHause> [22.10.2008 22:11] --> Bjarni hat den Kanal betreten (~Bjarni@0x50a46ad5.virnxx14.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk).
20:30:34 <scarabeus> ow i like this kind of highlight
20:30:46 <scarabeus> for that i will kick your cia
20:31:07 <Bjarni> now I should take action
20:31:22 <Bjarni> however CIA is perfectly well at defend itself
20:31:51 <Eddi|zuHause> this is actually one of my favourite songs
20:33:26 <scarabeus> unknown artist\unknown album\track 03.ogg
20:34:13 <SmatZ> unknown artist is the best
20:34:40 <svippery> Man, why isn't Coldplay unknown?
20:35:55 <svippery> Well, cause I am listening to their '42' right now.
20:36:08 <svippery> Oh and, enjoying some crisps.
20:47:10 <Belugas> "Artificial Intelligence is nothing compared to natural stupidity"
20:48:12 <svippery> What about Artificial Stupidity?
20:48:39 <svippery> Eddi|zuHause: What is wrong with last.fm?
20:49:01 <Eddi|zuHause> svippery: it automatically redirects me ;)
20:49:19 <svippery> It is trying to force its German agenda down upon you!
20:49:28 <svippery> First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin.
20:49:44 <Bjarni> that's not a good song :(
20:49:47 <Belugas> "Problem in this world is that idiots are sure of themselves, while brainy ones have doubts"
20:49:56 <Nite_Owl> Been reading the posts on the forum again Belugas
20:49:57 <Bjarni> besides... that group name... "Pink".... gay :P
20:50:21 <Eddi|zuHause> please tell me you have heard of Pink before...
20:50:30 <svippery> I have, and I don't like her.
20:50:42 <Bjarni> and I still think it's a silly name
20:51:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't like most of her songs, but i really love this one
20:51:49 <Nite_Owl> There have been a rather large amount of "substandard" forum posts of late
20:52:15 <Nite_Owl> I rather not name names
20:54:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i noticed that, too...
20:54:20 <Belugas> ho... well... getting used to it. And i don't answer as often as i used too
20:54:42 <Belugas> there is that guy, NekoMaster
20:54:43 <Eddi|zuHause> might be due to the september phenomenon ;)
20:54:55 <Belugas> htat's the only thing he mastered so far
20:55:06 <Belugas> apart from stupidty, of course
20:55:22 <Belugas> and to think he's canadian :S
20:56:35 <Nite_Owl> Ahh yes "The Future Set" thread
20:57:04 <Nite_Owl> I had a good laugh at that one today
20:59:03 <Nite_Owl> Mostly due to DaleStan's "soil yourself" response
20:59:33 <Eddi|zuHause> "Future" as in >2010 isn't likely to affect my OTTD games anyway
21:01:41 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
21:06:58 <scarabeus> you have great users
21:07:10 <scarabeus> i am sad that most of them cant handle gentoo so we dont have such nice comments
21:08:30 <scarabeus> btw how is that we need orginal GRP files- What train set are you using?
21:08:30 <scarabeus> - Which version of TTDPatch are you using?
21:08:30 <scarabeus> - Can you post a screen shot of your train purchase window?
21:08:45 <Zuu> Couldn't he/she turn on the lights before (s)he took the webcam photo..
21:09:52 <Zuu> Always the tools fault, no matter what statistics says... :p
21:10:09 <scarabeus> well you should see quassel
21:10:28 <Zuu> (road traffic statistics says about 90% of accidents are driver error)
21:12:25 <Zuu> dih: ottd wiki for a problem with TTDPatch?
21:12:51 <scarabeus> Zuu: road statistic says that 20% accidents are made by drunk drivers, so whom let the sober ones into streets
21:13:03 <Eddi|zuHause> he fell in the same trap that i did...
21:13:47 <Eddi|zuHause> scarabeus: so why is that client any different from any other irc client?
21:13:48 *** Dred_furst has joined #openttd
21:14:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and "quasseln" is a quite fitting german translation of "chatting" ;)
21:16:04 <Zuu> scarabeus: What does Quasell have to do with WeeChat?
21:16:15 <scarabeus> that i cant use gui client
21:16:27 <scarabeus> weechat asks when i press middle mouse button
21:16:48 *** TrueBrain has joined #openttd
21:17:00 <scarabeus> hey the person i am waiting for :]
21:17:01 <TrueBrain> scarabeus: sorry, working long hours lately
21:17:47 <TrueBrain> I see iconv patch is committed :)
21:17:59 <scarabeus> yes i convinced the others :]
21:19:08 <TrueBrain> the problem I have with iconv in ebuild ... is that we produce iconv-less binaries for .. well .. as long as this project is here, and as far as I can track, never had a problem
21:19:35 <TrueBrain> as it slows down the game a bit, and most Gentoo users have 'iconv' in their USE, I wonder if it would do more harm than good ..
21:20:17 <scarabeus> nopes we have really fast systems and systems from 2004 does not have iconv by default
21:20:32 <scarabeus> so we are pretty ok in this
21:20:47 <scarabeus> i am more concerned about that elog talkie in the end of the ebuild
21:20:55 <TrueBrain> hehe, 'really fast systems' is not a real argument ;)
21:21:30 <TrueBrain> I have a 2007.1 and 2008.0 base install, and 'iconv' is active by default ..
21:22:44 <TrueBrain> but what about the elog?
21:22:50 <scarabeus> desktop $ cat make.defaults |grep iconv
21:23:00 <scarabeus> if i am not saying some wrong stuff in there
21:23:05 <scarabeus> so it is correct :]
21:23:12 <scarabeus> but i guess i didnt miss anything
21:24:34 <TrueBrain> why oh why do you need to modify my ebuild completely every time ;) Lol :p
21:24:45 <TrueBrain> I make it more readable for myself, you put everything back in one statemet :p
21:25:03 <scarabeus> i need to convince mr_bones to open games overlay for users
21:25:06 <TrueBrain> and the annoying DESTDIR got back in :p Get that out for good will you? :)
21:25:09 <scarabeus> so this wont happen :]
21:25:20 <scarabeus> and i am just lazy to post diffs
21:25:58 <TrueBrain> + use dedicated && myopts="${myopts} --enable-dedicated --without-sdl"
21:25:58 <TrueBrain> - myopts="${myopts} --enable-dedicated"
21:26:01 <TrueBrain> diff between mine and yours
21:26:06 <TrueBrain> I like mine better (the '-' one)
21:26:23 <TrueBrain> --without-sdl is not needed (--enable-dedicated disables all video outputs)
21:26:41 <TrueBrain> (there is a reason I change things :p)
21:27:26 <TrueBrain> and the elog stuff at the end looks good to me
21:27:36 <TrueBrain> I am sure someone can write a better story, but it is clear, and understandable
21:28:30 <TrueBrain> contains 'openttd-trunk' and 'openttd-noai'
21:28:35 <TrueBrain> (nightly-builds, ebuild is updated every night)
21:28:52 <TrueBrain> I will merge your changes back into them soon :)
21:29:07 <TrueBrain> I still wonder about 'iconv', but I don't really care .. so we just keep it :)
21:29:31 <scarabeus> TrueBrain: did you hear about proxy-maintaining?
21:29:58 <TrueBrain> (so that is a no :))
21:30:26 <scarabeus> it means that someone write the ebuild and gets the credit, dev is used only to commit the ebuild into cvs and for reviewing
21:30:48 <scarabeus> well i am not sure if mr_bones will allow this to me because i am not member of games herd...
21:31:17 <TrueBrain> sorry, I don't understand what you try to say ..
21:31:48 <scarabeus> well that means you would be the manintainer since you have the live ebuild and so on...
21:31:58 <scarabeus> and i or other dev could do the commiting
21:32:15 <scarabeus> so not again waiting 2-3 months for next release
21:32:22 <scarabeus> but as i say i have to ask mr_bones first
21:32:38 <TrueBrain> hehe, it is a bit insane for OpenTTD currently .. :p
21:32:44 <TrueBrain> having a 0.5 in the portage ...
21:33:11 <scarabeus> actualy i am waiting if they will accept me in games herd, so if they i have some plans about games status in gentoo :]
21:34:24 <TrueBrain> Anyway, I was happy to see someone else taking an interest in the OpenTTD ebuild :)
21:36:01 <TrueBrain> and I really hope they remove the hard mask from 0.6.3 soon .. as you can't override that mask from within an overlay (or at least, all my attempts failed)
21:36:50 <scarabeus> you can do it :P just create profile/package.unmask iirc this should still work
21:36:59 <TrueBrain> scarabeus: STILL 'DESTDIR' ..
21:37:03 <scarabeus> or Documentation/package.unmask which user simlink
21:37:06 <TrueBrain> do I need to slap you with a fish or something? :p Hehe
21:37:16 <TrueBrain> scarabeus: check my overlay .. it contains that file, and it doesn't work :(
21:37:31 <TrueBrain> (not from within the overlay, that is)
21:37:55 <TrueBrain> and a VERY minor thing:
21:37:57 <TrueBrain> myopts="${myopts} --enable-dedicated " <- extra space :p
21:38:03 <TrueBrain> (sorry, I couldn't resist :))
21:38:13 <scarabeus> that is why i use git first
21:38:29 <scarabeus> because pple can tell me what they dont like
21:38:49 <TrueBrain> the reason OpenTTD uses SVN, Git or Mercurial too, yes :)
21:39:02 <scarabeus> ok i will not update it again
21:39:06 <TrueBrain> but we are getting there ;)
21:39:07 <scarabeus> or i will burn our old bugzilla
21:39:15 <scarabeus> and you update your live ebuild
21:39:26 <scarabeus> and we use live ebuild as base for 0.6.4
21:39:42 <scarabeus> since i am sure that i wont get clearance before that release
21:39:44 <TrueBrain> there won't be any, most likely, but 0.7 ;)
21:40:02 <TrueBrain> btw, if you check openttd-trunk on that url (you can walk it via http)
21:40:07 <TrueBrain> it contains 'icu' as dep
21:40:13 <TrueBrain> (required with recent versions)
21:42:35 <scarabeus> because in that case we would have to move this flag from local to global :D
21:43:24 <SmatZ> hmhm call it ... rtl_support then :)
21:43:30 <SmatZ> TrueBrain: local / global USE flag :)
21:45:47 *** Metalcore is now known as MetalDiningHall
21:46:37 <scarabeus> btw is there any way of replacing grf files with something open? i know that noone cares that it is abandonware...
21:47:00 <Eddi|zuHause> there is an OpenGFX project ongoing
21:47:30 <SmatZ> it is possible, but there are no sets with all GRFs replaced
21:48:02 <Eddi|zuHause> some work has already been done to make the game capable of switching between the base sets, but the open sets are not finished yet
21:48:39 <scarabeus> is there some progress bar? :]
21:48:55 <Zuu> An empty sample.cat could do the job, can't it (or even making sample.cat optional), as playing without sound is not a big problem.
21:49:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know... the forum has a graphics section, and probably the wiki has information about it, but i have not looked at anything specific
21:50:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: afaik having not the correct amount of sounds in sample.cat causes trouble with newgrfs containing sounds
21:50:20 <TrueBrain> testing my latest ebuilds ...
21:50:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: but i think there is a full set of replacement sounds in the forum, only it depends on a patch to have more than 8bit sounds in sample.cat
21:51:30 <Zuu> Okay, I've seen the project but didn't knew they got that far.
21:52:34 <scarabeus> well in that case we can make that installable on gentoo and maybe some users will help with improvements
21:53:56 <TrueBrain> (it btw fails on iconv currently, but tomorrow night that iwll be fixed .. I don't feel like adding a patch for 24 hours of not working :p)
21:54:12 <TrueBrain> glx: would you mind syncing NoAI with trunk?
21:54:16 <scarabeus> TrueBrain: why you just dont press enter :D line 45 like line 44 would be nice
21:55:19 <scarabeus> would not be easier to create one -9999 ebuild?
21:55:24 <scarabeus> and dont bother with snapshots
21:55:33 <scarabeus> in result user would not download so much stuff
21:55:44 <TrueBrain> scarabeus: better like this?
21:56:02 <TrueBrain> not download so much stuff? How would that differ?
21:56:19 *** MetalDiningHall is now known as Metalcore
21:56:37 <TrueBrain> and I considered -9999, but not only does the revision matter for multiplayer, also we have 'trunk' and 'noai' (where noai is an extension of trunk), which I would both like to publish :)
21:57:06 <scarabeus> svn eclass can handle branches ;]
21:57:15 <scarabeus> you can even make it use dependable :D
21:57:20 <scarabeus> but i am just picky
21:57:28 <scarabeus> i dont like that ewarn in the bottom
21:57:35 <scarabeus> i will give you better solution
21:57:53 <TrueBrain> I don't mind you being picky, it is why I ask you :) I know nothing about a 'svn eclass', so I hav eno idea if it is more useful
21:59:01 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: that patch is no better then the other gentoo iconv patch
21:59:12 <scarabeus> well i am currently doing some stuff with live kde ebuilds so i had to understand them :]
21:59:27 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I agree :)
22:00:06 <TrueBrain> bah, Rubidium, your patch doesn't work on 0.6.3 out-of-the-box ..
22:01:04 <TrueBrain> okay, it does work, just 'trac' fucks up :(
22:01:18 *** MURRAY is now known as murray
22:01:35 <scarabeus> this add into pkg_setup
22:01:40 <scarabeus> or into something like that
22:03:32 <TrueBrain> use that as libiconv.patch, is what I would suggest
22:03:37 <TrueBrain> a proper backport of the real fix :)
22:03:50 <scarabeus> ok add it yourself aw
22:04:01 <scarabeus> you dont have access to block my additions
22:05:31 <TrueBrain> updated -trunk and -noai with your suggestion
22:05:51 <TrueBrain> oh, you said pkg_setup .. does that matter?
22:06:57 <scarabeus> not actualy it is just common sense to write this *before* the actual merge
22:07:05 <scarabeus> so user can break it and think again
22:07:24 <TrueBrain> pkg_setup it will be
22:08:07 <scarabeus> also i can see i missed two ewarns so promote them into elog
22:08:48 <scarabeus> well there are two ewarn commands
22:09:02 <scarabeus> nothing more nothing less
22:10:11 <TrueBrain> you mean those about the dedicated? You mean they should be 'elog', not 'ewarn'?
22:12:41 <scarabeus> well elog is written again after all other merges ended up
22:12:58 <scarabeus> so i guess people should see it even when compiling lots of packages at once
22:13:06 <TrueBrain> ewarn shows up at the end too here ...
22:13:35 <TrueBrain> but elog is fine by me :)
22:14:24 <TrueBrain> including the openttd-0.6.3.ebuild
22:15:18 <TrueBrain> I hope I didn't forget/missed anything :)
22:17:50 <TrueBrain> anyway, I really should find my bed now .. tnx a lot scarabeus for all the feedback and help :) I hope this ebuild gets in portage very soon .. but I am afraid it will not :)
22:17:58 <TrueBrain> Good luck with getting into games herd :)
22:18:01 <TrueBrain> and good night to you all!
22:18:08 *** welshdragon has joined #openttd
22:23:34 * Bjarni wonders why people go search for their beds at night
22:23:58 <Bjarni> mine is obeying me and stays where I leave it
22:24:47 <scarabeus> well i am going to bed too
22:24:53 <scarabeus> so see you tomorow all :]
22:24:56 <Bjarni> it would be kind of scary if I came home one day and the pillow and stuff were on the floor since the bed ran away
22:25:06 <ln> with a constant number of Sacros waiting on the bed?
22:25:36 <Bjarni> that would be really bad
22:25:48 <Bjarni> I would have to figure out how to get rid of the bodies
22:26:01 <ln> my bed has a constant number of Sacros, and that's zero.
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22:51:59 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Bjarni
22:51:59 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Belugas
22:52:01 *** Metalcore is now known as MetalChemLab
22:52:46 *** Yeggstry is now known as Yeggzzz
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23:02:28 <ben_goodger> good evening, openttdists
23:03:56 <ben_goodger> is anything happening?
23:04:36 <Rubidium> besides the usual debugging not much I think
23:09:47 <SmatZ> what would make you happy, ben_goodger?
23:10:20 <ben_goodger> probably only a huge dose of tricyclics, melatonin and years of intensive psychotherapy
23:10:42 <ben_goodger> but for this evening, I was hoping for some sort of stimulating discussion about openttd or some such thing, as is usual for this channel
23:11:10 <SmatZ> too late I am afraid :(
23:11:21 <Rubidium> ben_goodger: go to OpenTTD's wikipedia deletion page!
23:11:22 <ben_goodger> otherwise, I may be forced to read this book on financial resources planning
23:11:42 <ben_goodger> ack, wikipedia is administered by a lot of prats...
23:14:14 <ben_goodger> as recently discussed on slashdot, evidence is considered less important than citation
23:14:16 <SmatZ> ben_goodger: go read that book, don't let (O)TTD(P) stop you from reading it / studying!
23:14:28 <ben_goodger> I'm not studying finance, that's the trouble
23:14:55 <ben_goodger> I just got it out of the library because it is 472 pages long and will therefore occupy a lot of otherwise wasted time in reading it
23:15:11 <Rubidium> or... write a scientifical paper about OpenTTD so OpenTTD becomes notable
23:15:33 <SmatZ> ben_goodger, you are strange :-)
23:15:42 <ben_goodger> thank you for your support
23:15:47 <ben_goodger> I believe I will do an overall rewrite and pile in the citations on this article
23:15:58 <ben_goodger> stop those officious bastards from deleting it...
23:17:00 * Rubidium wonders what a scientific paper about the notability criteria applied on the OpenTTD page on wikipedia would do for the notability of OpenTTD
23:18:16 <Nite_Owl> I need to feed - later all
23:18:57 <ben_goodger> openttd is written only partly in C++, yes?
23:19:38 <Rubidium> depends on the definition of C++
23:19:54 <Rubidium> technically all of OpenTTD is compilable as C++
23:20:06 <Rubidium> though large parts are also compilable as C
23:20:50 <ln> deleting articles is wikipedists' way of feeling important.
23:20:53 <SmatZ> OTTD uses non-standard-compliant C++ :) but luckily it compiles by most compilers :-)
23:22:10 <Rubidium> the most used compilers don't even complain about it
23:24:07 <glx> <@SmatZ> OTTD uses non-standard-compliant C++ :) but luckily it compiles by most compilers :-) <-- with some hacks for gcc 2.95 ;)
23:24:27 <glx> but it compiles and works
23:25:24 <Rubidium> gcc 2.95 isn't a C++ compiler, more a C+0 compiler ;)
23:27:05 <ben_goodger> good lord, I'm too young for this
23:28:11 <Rubidium> ben_goodger: you don't want to know
23:30:55 <ben_goodger> gah, this article is exceedingly difficult to write
23:32:42 <ben_goodger> and I usually pride myself on my communications skills
23:39:52 <SpComb> there's plenty of mentions of OpenTTD spread out on Wikipedia
23:40:18 <ben_goodger> is anyone willing to be a citation-diver for me?
23:40:29 <SpComb> not at this time of day
23:40:33 <ben_goodger> I have never been any good at phpbb's search function
23:41:54 <Rubidium> but the forum isn't notable ;)
23:42:03 <Rubidium> ben_goodger: just google with site:tt-forums.net
23:42:44 <Rubidium> though you should just add the citations to the forum on the wiki
23:45:07 <Rubidium> ah well, enough wikipedia bitching for now ;)
23:45:13 * Rubidium goes to try to sleep
23:47:54 <ben_goodger> how's the following?:
23:47:54 <ben_goodger> OpenTTD is an open source simulation game based around transport networks. It originated as a decompiled clone of Transport Tycoon Deluxe, but now incorporates many new features, most notably a multiplayer mode, support for internationalisation, a number of AI and user interface enhancements, and gameplay innovations similar to those found in TTDPatch.
23:47:55 <ben_goodger> The player is given a job as the managing director of one of several competing transport companies that operate within a particular region. Beginning with only a modest bank loan, the player must plan routes, build infrastructure, build and maintain vehicles and maintain their company's image in order to maximise profitability and achieve the highest company value by the end of the game.
23:47:56 <ben_goodger> The game requires many of the original data files from a retail copy of TTD to play. Free-content graphics are presently being produced in order to eliminate this dependency.[1]
23:49:53 <Rubidium> it's currently possible to run OpenTTD without any of the original data files
23:49:56 <SmatZ> I think "-decompiled" ... and we got rid of that "clone" word recently, too :)
23:51:25 <Eddi|zuHause> IMHO OpenTTD should be a subsection of a Transport Tycoon article, it does not really warrant a separate article
23:51:35 <ben_goodger> it says "clone" in big letters on the homepage
23:52:45 <Eddi|zuHause> it was never decompliled
23:53:04 <Eddi|zuHause> at best it was disassembled and reverse engineered
23:56:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd probably say "... is a reimplementation in C++"
continue to next day ⏵
