IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-10-11
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01:19:41 <ccfreak2k> 2048^2, that's about the size of Scotland right?
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04:35:05 <Celestar> something is _very_ wrong with my ISP today
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05:12:02 <Sacro> sigh, wireshark is so comple
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05:52:02 <A_Person> wow, I still have release version 0.4.1
05:54:30 <A_Person> Haven't played in over a year
05:56:16 <A_Person> I wonder if any super high volume railway station freaks are abou
05:56:54 <Sacro> I aim for more realistic than ZOMG LIKE HUEG CAPACITY
05:57:28 <A_Person> an experiment or a sort of scenario I tried to create back then has decided to haunt me today
05:59:01 <A_Person> but it required a two point railway that seemed to lack capacit for the amount of goods the game can supply it with
06:06:10 <Eddi|zuHause> damn... i have a severe case of jet lag
06:06:29 <Eddi|zuHause> but i only went to the airport and back (40 minutes each way)
06:06:51 <A_Person> I woke up 18 hours ago
06:09:28 <Sacro> i've been awake 13 hours
06:09:41 <A_Person> a couple hours later here
06:10:24 <A_Person> Haven't seen that format in a while
06:25:33 * A_Person makes some honey coffee
06:30:06 <A_Person> Anything new there? :P
06:30:22 <Sacro> well i'm writing up local council minutes for 1938
06:30:33 <Sacro> it's interesting just how much war preparation there is going on
06:30:47 <Sacro> logs from council meetings
06:31:01 <A_Person> Right, a proper historian there, huh
06:36:08 <A_Person> Hm, might have failed my coffee, could have poured too cool water :/
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08:49:22 <Sacro> hm, the gimp pallete in svn is invalid
08:51:06 <Sacro> I grabbed the html file
08:51:58 <Sacro> right, time to do BRSignals.grf
08:53:48 <Sacro> time to get rid of the silly practice of having YAPP signals with boxes
08:54:06 <Sacro> a non-yapp signal should have a black and white box
08:54:18 <Sacro> yeah, currently a yapp signal has a yellow box
08:54:52 <Sacro> but IRL an automatic signal has a marker
08:54:59 <Sacro> whereas a controlled doesn't
08:55:16 <Sacro> hmm, shall I do different semaphore styles
08:56:20 <Sacro> right, which palette colours are special...
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10:20:22 <DorpsGek> dih: Celestar was last seen in #openttd 5 hours, 45 minutes, and 16 seconds ago: <Celestar> something is _very_ wrong with my ISP today
10:39:46 <dih> how does cargodest handle pbi ?
10:42:22 <Ammler> cargodest has newindustry support.
10:42:58 <Ammler> it has just troubles with cargo which arrives while the industry doesn't accept a type temporarly because of excess.
10:46:03 <petern> It behaves exactly as expected.
10:49:49 <SpComb> how should I expect it to behave?
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10:57:43 <MOG> can I play old savegames from ttd?
11:01:51 <roboboy> MOG yes although certain TTDPatch switches may be incompatible if you used TTDPatch
11:17:32 <DorpsGek> dih: pikka was last seen in #openttd 3 weeks, 2 days, 3 hours, 40 minutes, and 19 seconds ago: <Pikka> how terribly terribly!
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11:21:50 <HyperServX> can anybody tell me, how to edit vehicle attributes (f.e. trains) in openttd or if there is a tool to do it
11:24:02 <HyperServX> ahh good. thx !!! :)
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11:24:23 <d-mike|micha> is there an option to get the game slower? i mean that one day goes longer than 3 seconds?!
11:26:32 <Swallow> there is a daylength patch...
11:30:04 <dih> search the forums for daylength :-P
11:48:10 <Phazorx> for these who are affected by glx's prettying up delimters in 14443, is there a diff w/o leading slashes?
11:48:32 <Phazorx> like that one but sort of propered to relative paths?
11:49:41 <Ammler> you could use the "hg sed": sed "/---/ s|a/||;/+++/ s|b/||;" patch > patch
11:50:15 <Ammler> replace a/ with /trunk/
11:50:41 <petern> Phazorx, glx != skidd13
11:51:10 <Phazorx> sorry if i blmed wrong person, but question remains
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11:53:09 <CommanderZ> pls, what is the fourth and fifth parameter in SDT_CONDVAR macro in setting.cpp? they are labeled "from" and "to", but I can't figure out what to put in there
11:53:27 <Alberth> savegame revision numbers afaik
11:54:35 <CommanderZ> aah, so once this will change the savegame format?
11:54:46 <luso> can you tell me if exist some internet page that explay, how make a public server in openttd?
11:54:51 <Alberth> from would become next(?) savegame number, to is max number
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11:55:41 <Ammler> luso: didn't you believe Progman?
11:55:55 <Alberth> luso: I would be highly surprised if nobody ever discussed this subject at the forums
11:56:10 <Ammler> but search for Multiplayer at wiki.openttd.org
11:56:30 <luso> i must go (supermarket) :)
12:05:32 <MOG> I had some troubles playing in LAN with the 0.6.3-111 build, anyone knows an idea why?
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12:20:28 <Alberth> MOG: it may help if you actually tell what 'trouble' is
12:42:00 <MOG> Alberth: an immediately unsync in the minute I press unpause
12:45:14 <Alberth> MOG: I have very little experience with such problems. Do you have any communication at all? (OpenTTD exchanges quite some data normally)
12:45:23 <Eddi|zuHause> who made that build?
12:45:39 <MOG> it's the build that comes with opensuse
12:45:43 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe they made modifications that they shouldn't have?
12:46:07 <MOG> that could indeed be a problem
12:46:30 <MOG> I thought about downloading the svn version - or is that a totally stupid idea for mp?
12:46:45 <Eddi|zuHause> versions must match exactly
12:47:13 <MOG> it's only for playing at home ;) so same revision shouldn't be a problem
12:47:18 <Eddi|zuHause> 0.6.3 must play with 0.6.3 only, r12345 must play with r12345 only
12:48:14 <Eddi|zuHause> and if you go all experimental on openttd, you could try the cargodest version ;)
12:52:16 <Timmey> When will be the first beta of 0.7.0 released?
12:52:38 <roboboy> in many months if not a year
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13:15:54 <glx> roboboy: usually we say "when it's done" ;)
13:16:57 <roboboy> but I thought id give times and I forgot about when its done (:
13:16:58 <glx> but your version is nive too
13:17:32 <glx> (stupid fingers not doing what I want)
13:18:01 <roboboy> a year is a bit long but thats how long it took 0.4.1 to get to 0.5.0 or thats how long I remember
13:18:02 <Vikthor> glx: Don't drink & type :p
13:18:32 <roboboy> drinking & typing kills the internet
13:20:24 <Eddi|zuHause> every time you mistype, god kills an intartube?
13:20:40 <Ammler> roboboy: there was at one other branch between 0.4.1 and 0.5, wasn't?
13:20:59 <Alberth> roboboy: nah, pouring beer in internet switches does :P
13:21:10 <Eddi|zuHause> there was no 0.4.1
13:21:41 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a 0.4.5 though
14:08:19 <Ammler> arel the scripts of the compile farm availabe
14:08:53 <Ammler> (just wondering, how it compiled successful while all I know failed...)
14:10:03 <Ammler> svn branch about is one year old.
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14:19:02 <dragonhorseboy> any of you in here ever been to the Hindenburgdamm area?
14:19:10 <dragonhorseboy> (near germany)
14:20:14 <Eddi|zuHause> where is that supposed to be?
14:22:13 <dragonhorseboy> heh ty..didn't noticed any maps myself before In
14:24:29 <Eddi|zuHause> why didn't you say "Sylt" then? everybody knows where that is...
14:24:50 <Eddi|zuHause> and no, i have never been there
14:27:22 <dragonhorseboy> seem interesting for a rail-only island link neverminding all photos of cars-carrying trains
14:30:22 <dragonhorseboy> heh so what you three doing now?
14:35:00 <SpComb> someone want to grab a screenshot of the in-game OpenTTD server list, sorted by date, for me?
14:35:10 <SpComb> I can't as the MyOTTD IPs are broken via NAT for me
14:36:11 <Eddi|zuHause> reading about how, after 4 months into building the dam, a flood destroyed everything, and they started over
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14:38:58 <Eddi|zuHause> 1927 they opened the rail line, and 1932 they started transporting cars
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14:46:07 <Leopard> i have a question because my trains sometimes do negative income
14:49:28 <dih> Leopard, try letting them transport something :-D
14:50:17 <Leopard> oh shit. i didnt search the forum. *die with shame*
14:51:14 <Leopard> thank you a lot and have a nice weekend
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15:21:25 <A_Person> I wonder if I update my openttd version my savegames will survive intact
15:22:58 <Alberth> update elsewhere, and try
15:24:52 <Alberth> savegames can usually (always?) be loaded, going back to the old version is often not possible
15:25:00 <Eddi|zuHause> unless you made any modifications, all old savegames should be loaded in a newer version
15:25:18 <A_Person> hmm, now if I could remember where my TTD install is, hmm
15:26:21 <Alberth> use find facility of the OS
15:28:58 * SpComb digs up the MyOTTD topic
15:36:16 <ccfreak2k> I agree with the second poster; cleaning the company after x months of inactivity is better.
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15:37:18 <Ammler> ccfreak2k: that are 2 different things
15:37:41 <Ammler> that patch would "clean" if someone just joins to take a look and leave again
15:38:35 <Alberth> Ammler: how often does that happen?
15:39:51 <Ammler> because if you like the map, you would need to rejoin, just to create a map.
15:41:34 <Ammler> well, the company has also no pw, so someone else can join and take over it...
15:46:34 <Muxy> the reply talk about a network connection lost
15:48:13 <Muxy> and it possible to distinguish between a lost connection and a normal leaving
16:07:38 <ccfreak2k> I.e. any case where the client doesn't tell the server that it's leaving.
16:11:38 <SpComb> being able to tell why the connection was lost
16:12:26 <Muxy> well, it is in the code. and u get the message in the console : leaving or connection lost
16:13:05 * SpComb doesn't know what the OpenTTD code does
16:15:20 <Muxy> That's my 1st reply in the post : the server is able to know if it's normal leaving (user select leave game) or if it's a lost connection. So in the patch I clean the company if it has ZERO vehicle and if it's not a lost connection.
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16:25:06 <A_Person> hmm, I seem to be unable to find any pages describing ridiculously huge flow TTD train stations
16:25:42 <Zoney> i have some multiplayer qs
16:26:29 <Zoney> when i start a internet game. it dose not show up in the list. how do i know what the games ip is?
16:37:27 <Muxy> Hi Zoney, what do you mean by internet game : server ?
16:43:00 <Zoney> a server but it never shows up in the list
16:47:14 <Muxy> in what list ? openttd server list ?
16:51:28 <glx> is it visible on servers.openttd.org?
16:51:56 <Muxy> did u select the publish option ?
16:52:08 <glx> did you configure your router?
16:52:14 <DorpsGek> glx: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
16:53:00 <Zoney> yes i selected advertisv
16:56:44 <Muxy> u have a 0.6.3 release ?
16:57:29 <Muxy> OS : windows, linux ? if windows : firewall ?
16:58:11 <Zoney> windows and6.3 yes.. i think i may have a firewall what ever windows comes with
17:00:02 <Muxy> what about the windows firewall. anyway i think it will let out..
17:00:44 <Zoney> windows firewall is what i have.. it hasent poped up and asked me if i want to unblock it or anything
17:01:51 <Muxy> so can you set it up to let openttd send its stuff out ?
17:02:36 <Muxy> but after, if u want players to connect, and have a router, you wil have to redirect the port on which the server listen
17:03:04 <Zoney> alrighty ill try that. thanks:D
17:20:28 <A_Person> ottd could use some more large scale view scales
17:32:13 *** Yeggs-away is now known as Yeggstry
17:33:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Question: randomized station names have routines for checking the surrounding of the station to choose certain suitible names (like "Mine" when a mine is near, or "Woods" when trees are near). how hard would it be to expose similar functionality to the town name generator (and especially newgrfs), so e.g. certain townname parts can only appear when a town is near water, or on top of a hill, or similar?
17:36:09 <glx> town name is just a number
17:36:32 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i'm aware of that
17:38:34 <Eddi|zuHause> but in germany, some duplicate towns are often described by a suffix, like Halle (Saale) is near the river Saale, while Halle (Westphalen) is in the country of Westphalen, now calling a town with a river name is only suitible when there actually is a river near there
17:39:02 <Eddi|zuHause> so when no water is found near the town, the suffixes for river names should have a probability of 0 being generated
17:39:07 <glx> the name displayed is asked to the generator each time it's displayed
17:39:40 <Muxy> it means tha u must qualify them in the grf
17:39:45 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. the suffix is still there for displaying, but the probability of generating it is 0
17:40:25 <glx> what happens if the water amount changes ?
17:40:25 <frosch123> I guess Eddi is heading for a callback that can deny a random number on while turn founding
17:41:33 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, something like that
17:41:34 <glx> name generator is just an imbrication of switches
17:43:36 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, so the same number must under any circumstance return the same name
17:44:02 <Eddi|zuHause> so there might be a way to deny certain numbers as invalid when generating them
17:44:04 <glx> yes it's totally deterministic, and different numbers can return the same name too
17:44:15 <Eddi|zuHause> like numbers are invalid when the name is duplicate
17:44:44 <Eddi|zuHause> so at the place of this duplication check, there could also be this hypothetical callback
17:45:39 <Eddi|zuHause> so a suffix can be flagged as "needs to be near water", and if the callback fails, the number is discarded as invalid
17:46:29 <glx> I think you can't flag the suffix, but you can use something similar to the name determination
17:47:13 <frosch123> I guess Eddi wants to flag the whole 32 random bits, i.e. the callback knows which bits belong to the suffix
17:47:51 <glx> depends on how the grf interprets bits
17:48:07 <glx> the only way would be to pass the uint32 to the callback
17:48:19 <frosch123> yup, that's what I meant :)
17:48:48 <batti5> News: OpenTTD 6.3 & All Nightly`s work on (K)ubuntu 8.10 Interpred Ibex
17:48:49 <glx> and let the grf do whatever it needs to allow or not the result
17:49:16 <glx> batti5: if it's a "linux" it's not surprising
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17:49:55 <frosch123> maybe a generic callback for feature 08 ...
17:50:33 <glx> the problem will be the possible varaction 2
17:51:46 <Eddi|zuHause> this callback should only affect town generation, after that, all town names are resolved like normal
17:52:13 <frosch123> [19:52] <glx> the problem will be the possible varaction 2 <- because ...
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17:54:51 <frosch123> I thought Eddi was volunteering
17:55:20 <Eddi|zuHause> that'd be a little much ;)
17:55:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know a thing about how to add newgrf callbacks
17:56:25 <glx> adding a callback is not the hardest part ;)
17:56:49 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: take a look at newgrf_generic.cpp, take NewGenericResolver and duplicate it with its own GetVariable() function
17:56:53 <Eddi|zuHause> well, yes, it has to be designed properly to be useful and generic enough
17:57:31 <Eddi|zuHause> and the resulting newgrf code shouldn't be too complicated, or people won't use it
17:57:53 <glx> the newgrf code will be the same as other callbacks
17:58:15 <frosch123> [19:59] <Eddi|zuHause> and the resulting newgrf code shouldn't be too complicated, or people won't use it <- when you start like that, everything would be too complicated :)
17:58:50 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but it wouldn't be good if the newgrf coder has to duplicate the town name part structure for calculating the callback result
17:59:36 <glx> it can just check the bits used to determine an exact suffix he wants to prevent
18:00:30 <glx> but for complex name generator it can be fun :)
18:01:20 <Eddi|zuHause> well, a possible extension to that callback would be to return a replacement suffix to use (i.e. alter the bits)
18:02:06 <Eddi|zuHause> can callbacks return 32 bit?
18:02:09 <DaleStan> the only way would be to pass the uint32 to the callback <-- This would require exposing which bit values correspond to which nameparts. Is that known to be the same in Patch and Open?
18:03:47 <DaleStan> Eddi|zuHause: With difficulty, yes. But if the CB changes the name, then you have to go back and re-run all the name-validity checking.
18:04:05 <Eddi|zuHause> of course, that one is obvious ;=
18:05:05 <A_Person> oops, I updated my openttd while the game was open :/
18:05:32 <DaleStan> Or do the callback before TTD's name-validity code, which would probably make more sense.
18:05:35 <frosch123> [20:04] <DaleStan> the only way would be to pass the uint32 to the callback <-- This would require exposing which bit values correspond to which nameparts. Is that known to be the same in Patch and Open? <- we are taking about the 32 random bits which are used in ActionF
18:06:36 <frosch123> and the callback could only apply to name styles from the same grf
18:07:04 <glx> as this 32 bits value is the one stored as townname
18:07:05 <DaleStan> Yeah. Given three parts, each with probability 01, selected by two bits, what values of those two bits correspond to which part?
18:07:28 <DaleStan> And which part actually has a 50% chance of appearing.
18:07:39 <DaleStan> None of that is currently documented.
18:07:53 <Eddi|zuHause> well, in my imagination it could work like this, assume we have an action F with the following parts: (taken from the action F page):
18:07:55 <Eddi|zuHause> 03 "Alpha" 00 01 "Beta" 00
18:08:13 <Eddi|zuHause> there could be an extension that for each name an action 2 id is given
18:08:33 <Eddi|zuHause> 03 "Alpha" 00 <action 2 id 1> 01 "Beta" 00 <action 2 id 2>
18:09:11 <Eddi|zuHause> so when the town name generator generates a town name with the part "Alpha", the corresponding action 2 is called, and this can call other functions that check for validity
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18:09:28 <Eddi|zuHause> and if that callback result is negative, the whole number is flagged as invalid
18:10:45 <frosch123> [20:09] <DaleStan> None of that is currently documented. <- that does not mean it is not deterministic, and I consider it the fault of the grf author, when they do not sum up to a power of two
18:11:58 <DaleStan> Even if it is deterministic, is it deterministic in the same way in both Patch and Open?
18:12:19 <Eddi|zuHause> does it have to be?
18:12:33 <frosch123> don't know, but it is deterministic between patch and grf2html, and open looks similiar. glx should know :)
18:13:24 <frosch123> However adding a "the probabilities need to sum up to a power of two" to the callback would be the easiest solution
18:13:36 <joey_> I have a strange behavior of trains in 0.6.3.. they are interpreting a standard signal as a semaphore
18:14:04 <joey_> if someone has time, he might want to join my Server (DJGummikuh's Playhouse) and tell me why my trains behave that way please?
18:14:13 *** joey_ is now known as DJGummikuh
18:14:15 <DaleStan> Yes. It does. Else NFO coders would have to use two different action 2 chains. Even if the chain is called after every choice, there might be a condition where the NFO has to know about the existence of two or more parts before it can determine validity.
18:15:28 <Eddi|zuHause> DJGummikuh: screenshot?
18:15:43 <DJGummikuh> a screenshot of a pathfinding behavior? hard to get
18:15:57 <A_Person> Hmm, is it possible to create a scenario beginning with 2048?
18:16:04 <DJGummikuh> Eddi if you have a minute it would make infinetly more sens if you would join and see for yourself
18:16:29 <Eddi|zuHause> it would take significantly more than a minute
18:17:05 <DJGummikuh> just to get sure... ctrl+click once on a signal makes it a "track" signal, clicking twice makes it a semaphore, right?
18:17:46 <A_Person> Oh no! OpenTTD gave me a non-english GUI!
18:17:47 <DJGummikuh> meh I lack the english expressions of these signlas
18:18:07 <DJGummikuh> (I lack the german expressions partly, too >.<)
18:18:13 <Eddi|zuHause> DJGummikuh: do you mean pre- exit- and combo signals?
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18:19:27 <DJGummikuh> ah ok yes.. click once should make exit, right?
18:19:48 <frosch123> normal -> pre -> exit -> combo -> normal -> ...
18:19:49 <Eddi|zuHause> no, once is pre-, twice is exit
18:20:25 <Eddi|zuHause> and a screenshot would have totally shown us your wrong signalling :p
18:20:38 <frosch123> pre = yellow horizontal, exit = white vertical, combo = something yellow-whitish
18:21:38 <DJGummikuh> ok just to get sure.. I put a pre before a station and an exit right before every track of that station, right?
18:22:33 <frosch123> pre before the junction, exit between junction and station
18:23:39 <Eddi|zuHause> and when you get to play nightly/0.7, you have to forget all of that :p
18:24:29 <DJGummikuh> I have latest SVN but I have no built-env on my windows laptop so I can't play the client here :)
18:29:00 <A_Person> Hey if I scroll plane speed factor to 1/1 the planes go 4 times faster than with the deafult 1/4 right?
18:30:12 <A_Person> hmm, max station spread can get pretty high, yet I haven't found writings of even 16 size station management
18:32:07 <A_Person> hmm, manual doesn't explain "stations-allow more realistically sized catchment areas"
18:32:39 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Cottbus%20Transport,%2021.%20Okt%201925.png <- that's 16 if i didn't miscount
18:32:57 <frosch123> A_Person: it is more like "differently sized" catchment areas
18:33:16 <A_Person> yeah, I mean, I'd have to experiment to find what the difference is, heh
18:33:18 <Eddi|zuHause> A_Person: makes bus stations smaller and airports bigger
18:33:41 <Eddi|zuHause> you can see the catchment area when choosing the option when building the station
18:33:42 <frosch123> Turn it on, and enable "show catchment area" when building stations
18:34:51 <A_Person> yeah, I remember that one
18:36:24 <A_Person> crap, game ends just three years after the last new vehicle?
18:36:48 <frosch123> it does not end, it just takes highscore
18:37:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i never ever reached year 2050
18:37:48 <A_Person> I want to experiment with scenarios starting in late years
18:37:54 <glx> <frosch123> don't know, but it is deterministic between patch and grf2html, and open looks similiar. glx should know :) <-- IIRC I coded it like in ttdpatch
18:38:02 <A_Person> apparently the old game only allowed making scenarios as late as 2000 :C
18:38:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i like the early years much more
18:38:28 <A_Person> I want to test something with the superfast vehicles
18:38:49 <A_Person> I want to fiddle with my two town, two railstation two airport scheme again
18:39:02 <A_Person> was impossible to carry the capacity with old trains last time I tried
18:39:52 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i've done some modification to passenger generation...
18:42:15 <A_Person> I was focusing the railway more for the goods, it has very little initial passenger catchment
18:43:17 <A_Person> one of each land industry total split between the two towns/stations, their entire throughput serviced by the two stations, with production cranked to max, seems like an impossible scenario kinda
18:44:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i think two towns is a stupid game
18:44:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i want 3000 small towns, and a real network
18:44:38 <A_Person> I'm not much of a regular gamer either
18:44:42 <Eddi|zuHause> optimised for connectivity
18:44:49 <A_Person> chaos doesn't really entertainm me :/
18:45:59 <Eddi|zuHause> hypnotizing doubletracks flowing through the countryside entertain me
18:46:52 <A_Person> I even made the map with just that one train line in mind, well and airport lots, heh, one long elongated corridor of a map :P
18:47:11 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2028.%20Sep%201927.png <- for example like this
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18:48:22 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2017.%20Okt%201981.png <- or like this
18:48:26 <A_Person> I tried solving my experiment with something like that
18:48:34 <A_Person> only with 16 station lanes
18:48:46 <A_Person> couldn't manage the train flow properly
18:49:33 <A_Person> You have a big loop there! you could've built it straight! :P
18:51:45 <Eddi|zuHause> the entire point of the line is that it is NOT straight, because that would have made it very steep
18:52:13 <A_Person> hmm, guess it makes sense
18:55:48 <A_Person> a coal mine, farm, refinery, sawmill and a steel mill at one station. A power station, oil well, iron ore mine, forest and factory at the other
18:56:34 <A_Person> crank it to max and there's so much cargo to haul the earth will break
18:56:59 <fjb> But doesn't it get boring after a few game years?
18:57:21 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why i like PBI, the production limits force you to actually connect multiple factories and steel mills to your network
18:57:43 <A_Person> it didn't cause I couldn't make the flow work fjb, heh
18:57:52 <Eddi|zuHause> and that's also the reason why i need bloody damn shunting!
18:58:55 <A_Person> if I ever manage to get it to work I'll have to ditch it of course, but when I tried I couldn't, I'm going to try again today, but the map needs editing for the new airport, and changing the rail corridor geometry a bit, I put stupid bends into the station entry that slowed trains down
19:00:01 <fjb> Ok, solving that may be a problem. Kind of optimization problem.
19:00:35 <A_Person> And that was pretty much the meaning of my challenge I guess
19:00:53 <A_Person> want to see if the game's theoretical max is possible
19:01:09 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: The problem with PBI stockpiling is that I regularly overflow the only left steel mill with my two 1885 steam engine trains.
19:02:11 <Eddi|zuHause> well, yes, the closing of unserved industries must be dealt with differently, somehow
19:02:20 <fjb> A_Person: Maybe you should try the new YAPP signals in the current nightly builds.
19:02:43 <A_Person> Well, I just installed the current version, last time I played I had 0.4.1!
19:03:41 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: And the steel mill gets overflowed by less than the load of one train with two steam egines hauling up a hill.
19:04:26 <Eddi|zuHause> what? my steel mills take somethin like 1000 items, how do you put that mass into one train?
19:04:29 <fjb> The new signals greatly enhance the throughput of switchyards.
19:04:51 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: your old alpine game, still playing that?
19:05:13 <A_Person> I guess you're right, I'll give it a try after I've had my taste of the changes since my last encounter
19:05:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: no, it was kinda stuck with an old yapp v3 build, and i never managed to get it loadable in a newer version
19:05:42 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: Coal limit is about 750 tons.
19:05:48 <Ammler> snow-in-temperate is so nice.
19:06:02 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: my observation is that these limits vary from industry to industry
19:06:16 <Eddi|zuHause> but i might be mistaken in that
19:06:28 <A_Person> I've been thinking all evening that beside having snow in tmeperate it would be nice to have a crazy mics of industries in all 3 climates :D
19:06:32 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i love snow
19:06:56 <Eddi|zuHause> if you want crazy, take ECS
19:07:00 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: Then I went unlucky with the only left steel mill. It's iron ore limit is higher, but it consumes as much coal as iron ore.
19:07:22 <Ammler> well, in that case ECS is more "stable"
19:08:01 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: I tried ECS, there things that I like and things that I dislike with ECS. But starting a game in 1831 would had left hardly any industry on the map to play with.
19:08:20 <Ammler> you do not need to fund new primary industries all the time like with PBI
19:09:19 <fjb> Yes, they are dying to fast in ECS. And you earn not that much money starting that early.
19:09:32 <Ammler> ECS has some unttdish graphics, else it is fine (well, don't use all vectors at once)
19:10:24 <Ammler> but not if you service them...
19:11:00 <fjb> All vectors at once is the real fun. But many graphics could be better, more TTD like hand drawn. I like the coal mine and the factory. But I dislike the rendered ones.
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19:12:08 <fjb> I had ECS industries die even when serviced, but it is hard to always get a rating above 80% in early game years.
19:12:41 <Ammler> didn't that change with newest versions?
19:13:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't touched ECS in a while, since it was unplayable on a big map
19:13:53 <fjb> I'm currently playing my 1831 PBI game.
19:14:38 <fjb> Yeah, starting earlier didn't work. Horse carriages are just too slow to get enough money.
19:16:04 <Eddi|zuHause> payment rates need to adapt through the years
19:16:25 <fjb> Now it is 1905 and I'm having 19 trains, 73 horse carriages and two steam boats.
19:17:14 <frosch123> 19 trains after 74 gameyears? isn't that kind of boring?
19:17:32 <fjb> Longest train is my unhappy 968 tons coal train.
19:17:50 <A_Person> I'll rob you of some more of your time, what's ECS and PBI
19:18:04 <fjb> Not that boring. Much thinking to get money with slow trains and horses.
19:18:45 <fjb> STOP, time police speaking.
19:19:02 <fjb> A_Person: That are industry sets.
19:19:17 <A_Person> I was just trying to sound silly
19:19:26 <yorick> hm, interesting: 175 servers online...67 of which use 0.6.2, 56 0.6.3, 17 are still 0.5.3, 12 are 0.6.0, 9 are 0.6.1, most used mapsize is 512x512, most language specific servers are german, followed by english and russian...140 servers are running a random map, there are 106 clients on those, and 140 total
19:20:14 <fjb> We should interconnect the servers. :-)
19:22:29 <fjb> Another problem with slow vehicles is that they are losing reliability too fast. the hardly reach the next depot in time.
19:22:58 <A_Person> I have to redo most of the relevant pices of map :/
19:23:10 <A_Person> airport catchment will go over the edge
19:23:17 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Klein%20Elsmuenster%20Transport,%202.%20Okt%201940.png
19:23:37 <Eddi|zuHause> why is that a problem?
19:25:24 <A_Person> because I want the 10 wide catchment not to be wasted in my pre-planned map?
19:25:53 <Eddi|zuHause> that was one game with the old "new" passenger destinations patch
19:26:15 <Eddi|zuHause> and my first game with PBI
19:26:30 <A_Person> hmm, I can't remember if ships going opposite directions through the same field obstruct eachother
19:26:54 <Ammler> my first cargodest game was with ECS :-)
19:27:48 <fjb> Ammler: My also. But it doesn't matter that much.
19:28:14 <fjb> A_Person: They will pass through each other like ghost ships.
19:30:56 <fjb> I dislike that feature a bit.
19:32:09 <A_Person> I was just wondering how much room I'll need between continent edge and map border
19:32:22 <A_Person> with that, one will do!
19:34:11 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Klein%20Elsmuenster%20Transport,%207.%20Maer%201930-2.png
19:34:14 <broli> where im suposed to put the gm folder in linux? im building openttd from source, but cant hear music, and im trying to find why.
19:34:23 <broli> i cant find any other missing library on the configure script
19:34:40 <Eddi|zuHause> gm folder should get next to the data folder
19:34:49 <A_Person> it's in the main install directory in win...
19:35:10 <A_Person> along with data and everything else
19:35:30 <broli> then my gm folder got corrupted, or im building it wrong
19:35:50 <Eddi|zuHause> what's in the gm folder?
19:36:39 <broli> givme a sec, pastebin is loading
19:37:34 <broli> sorry, the frist one got the color codes in it, readm the second one
19:38:16 <Eddi|zuHause> good, next step: can you play the files with an external midi player? (timidity for example)?
19:40:20 <broli> i didint had timidity++, i only had the libs. could have been that?
19:40:30 <broli> well, im gona find out in 5 mins when yum finishs
19:46:53 <fjb> Hm, cooperative multitasking and real time applications don't get together that well.. :-(
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19:54:10 <broli> ok, i installed timidity, and i am able to hear the gm in the gm folder.
19:54:35 <broli> reconfigured with the option --with-midi=timidity, but still no luck
19:54:57 <broli> should i use the full path ?
19:55:36 <broli> where? i run openttd from console, and i dont see any error
19:55:48 <broli> the player in game shows a tune, but i cant hear anything
19:56:27 <Eddi|zuHause> you can increase the debug level for music
19:57:26 <broli> you should asume i dont know how and go ahead and tell me
19:58:04 <yorick> I mean the configure script
19:58:35 <yorick> also, try putting the volume higher
19:58:50 <broli> yorick the volume is as high as it goes
19:59:25 <yorick> on the openttd soundplayer?
19:59:28 <Eddi|zuHause> go to the ingame console (key left of 1), and type debug_level
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20:01:54 <Eddi|zuHause> which ones are there?
20:02:37 <broli> still no error. i can hear trains and horns, but not music
20:02:41 <Eddi|zuHause> that'll hardly be helpful :p
20:04:06 <broli> i get in game and try to play a song, or change and no message appears
20:06:25 <yorick> ok...try starting openttd using openttd -d10
20:07:30 <Eddi|zuHause> try starting openttd with the option -d driver=3
20:07:50 <Eddi|zuHause> yorick: that output will be totally useless
20:12:35 <broli> well, the only thing i can ee, is that sound is correctly initialized
20:13:29 <Eddi|zuHause> music is the relevant part, not sound
20:14:05 <broli> only occurrence "dbg: [driver] Successfully probed music driver 'libtimidity'
20:14:40 <glx> sdl may block other sound apps
20:15:26 <glx> there's an SDL_something system variable to define
20:16:06 <broli> i tried runing timidity while the game was running and i heard both sounds
20:16:38 <broli> and runing the game while timidity was playing and also worked
20:21:37 <A_Person> Hmm, the game wiki could list catchment areas for other stations like it does for airports
20:30:56 <fjb> A_Person: Just start the gane an look at the cachement area preview.
20:32:37 <broli> Your 'sample.cat' file is corrupted or missing! <-- can this be my problem with music?
20:36:39 <broli> -.-' i feel a little idiot now
20:37:17 <broli> i dont know where im gona get the game now
20:53:18 <A_Person> Woot, I CAN make a nearly flawless street grid around a mega-airport
20:55:56 <broli> ok. i fixed the sample cat problem, but still i dont get any music
20:57:34 <A_Person> I wonder if anyone has determined which cities can have denser population, ones limited to 2*2 cells, or with some proportion of 3*3
20:58:00 <broli> is there any list of files i need fomr the original game?
21:02:18 <Rubidium> Ammler: that set should add a pirate ship
21:03:42 <DJGummikuh> why are there so many morons playing openttd?
21:04:15 <DJGummikuh> I just had some prick that called himself "the flying dutchman" who - before he left - bought exclusive transport rights in every city I have stations in
21:04:19 <Eddi|zuHause> you've got two words too much there
21:04:39 <murray> quality entertainment attracts morons and leeches :p
21:04:41 <DJGummikuh> long story short i rcon-resetted his company but this is really a pita
21:05:00 <Rubidium> DJGummikuh: because TTDP is too complex to install for morons
21:05:19 <DJGummikuh> he collappsed my whole train system because they were waiting for cargo which they didn't get
21:05:27 <Rubidium> and simutrans is too complex to play for morons
21:06:26 <Ammler> Rubidium: if you are here, was there a reason, you do not copy player_name to client_name?
21:06:35 <Ammler> (all join as "Player" now
21:08:40 <Rubidium> there's no player_name
21:09:51 <Eddi|zuHause> in my .cfg, there is
21:11:02 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: he is joking about ant that was also the answer, no reason. :-)
21:11:53 <broli> im about to pull my hair one by one
21:12:32 <dih> r14458: openttd: /home/fairplay/openttd/src/station_cmd.cpp:567: void UpdateStationAcceptance(Station*, bool): Assertion `(rect.right >= rect.left) == !st->rect.IsEmpty()' failed.
21:12:58 <dih> you want a savegame with that?
21:13:10 <dih> Rubidium, my autonightly - clean trunk
21:13:17 <Rubidium> then make a bugreport
21:13:35 <Rubidium> as frosch's already gone
21:13:41 <broli> i completly purged my folder. recompiled, copied the files from TTDX, and still no music
21:14:25 <Rubidium> did you put them in the gm folder, where the gm folder is in the same folder as the openttd binary?
21:15:34 <Rubidium> Ammler: oh... you mean it that way... then I guess there was no reason except not noticing that it might've been "converted"
21:15:52 <Rubidium> though that adds all kinds of complexities and basically wasted memory
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21:17:29 <Ammler> if client_name="" then client_name=player_name ;-)
21:17:57 <Rubidium> Ammler: make a diff that isn't a hack
21:18:14 <Rubidium> broli: might it be that the music is paused/stopped or the music level is 0?
21:18:31 <dih> Ammler, what if player_name = "" too
21:18:58 <Rubidium> nullpointerexception
21:19:04 <broli> Rubidium i start a gme, open the music player, and the volume is 100%, and i push the pay button and i dont hear the music
21:19:19 <dih> shame, i was hoping to confuse Ammler :-P
21:19:24 <Rubidium> and it's not "racing" through the music?
21:19:49 <Ammler> dih: I do not need to discuss it again with you :P
21:19:58 <broli> Rubidium fixed that after i isntalled libtimidity and recompiled :P
21:20:50 <Rubidium> I think (or seem to remember that) libtimidity was never meant for unixy openttds
21:21:29 <broli> the configure script asks for it,m and if i run openttd, it says it loads correctly
21:22:09 <tokai> last time i checked the libtimidity support was rather incomplete
21:22:27 <Rubidium> but whether the music is actually "passed" to libtimidity
21:22:28 <broli> im thinking on just launching timidity on a temrinal and runing the game on top of it, it just works that way :P
21:22:56 <tokai> would be nice to have, IMHO
21:23:04 <tokai> i mean full libtimidity support that is
21:23:22 <broli> i tried recompiling using an external midi player,using the full path, with arguments an all, but i didnt worked
21:25:45 <Rubidium> can't 'easily' test libtimidity here; Debian doesn't support libtimidity out of the box
21:26:07 <Rubidium> but then, I don't want timidity anyway because it sucks way too much CPU cycles
21:29:24 <glx> IIRC libtimidity was added as part of PSP support
21:29:51 <Ammler> heh, just tried, nice music :-)
21:30:06 <broli> it used to work trough the 0.5.x
21:30:13 <Ammler> omg, I feel back 10 years
21:30:41 <broli> so, how i disable lib and enable the old bahvior?
21:30:57 <broli> belh, i will just launch timidity oand the game by hand
21:34:17 <Rubidium> libtimidity is quite "stale" (4 years no new releases)
21:35:23 <dih> Rubidium, i think it has to do with the commit by frosch
21:35:31 <DorpsGek> dih: Invalid arguments for _commit.
21:35:42 <DorpsGek> dih: Commit by frosch :: r14456 /trunk/src (station_cmd.cpp station_map.h) (2008-10-10 20:09:29 UTC)
21:35:43 <DorpsGek> dih: -Fix: Obiwan in catchment-area and station-spread of docks.
21:35:58 <dih> the assert was added in that commit
21:36:36 <Rubidium> dih: that's no news for me; he added it deliberately
21:37:00 <Rubidium> the assert that is, to test some "hypothesis"
21:37:10 <dih> i have 2 saves attached to the ticket, one 28 mins before, one 8 mins before
21:37:28 <Rubidium> and it reproduces when you load it?
21:37:35 <dih> the save 8mins before i reloaded on the server and it did not crash
21:37:50 <dih> i am talking to the guys on the server
21:37:59 <Rubidium> yay for useful bugreports...
21:38:40 <dih> just had the same assert 2 mins ago
21:40:17 <Rubidium> well, you should know that it's only useful to really make a bugreport when you can reproduce it
21:41:21 <dih> Rubidium, i am working on getting there ;-)
21:41:38 <dih> anyway - you have 5 asserts in 6 lines of code
21:41:45 <dih> where 4 are inside an if block
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21:43:36 <dih> Rubidium, it's reproducable
21:46:52 <dih> besides - the assert is silly!
21:47:12 <dih> the asserts after that one are ok - but that one is silly IMO
21:47:21 <dih> but then MO is not always that good ;P
21:49:59 <dih> assert((rect.right >= rect.left) == !st->rect.IsEmpty());
21:50:37 <dih> i read that if rect.right >= rect.left is true and we have an empty rect - crash
21:50:49 <dih> then why have the asserts in the if block?
21:51:43 <dih> i think i have a save game that asserts after 5 mins of doing nothing
21:53:56 <SmatZ> the game in the report asserts after a while
21:54:28 <SmatZ> it asserts when new oil rig is built
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22:06:27 <Rubidium> hmmm.... libtimidity is only a "decoder"; it doesn't seem to actually play the music
22:13:18 <broli> is it normal that terraforming a path uniting 2 shores lines of a lake is actually more cheaper than doing the same until the middle of the lake?
22:15:28 <SmatZ> depends how many water tiles you modify
22:16:34 <broli> 30x2 path uniting 2 shore lines is cheaper than 15x2 path that ends mid water
22:17:00 <SmatZ> sorry I fail to understand your sentences
22:17:12 <broli> yeah, sorry, my english is not that good
22:17:20 <broli> i will make a screenshot and gimp iot
22:17:38 <Nite_Owl> Terraforming water is more expensive but you can only raise it up
22:18:18 <SmatZ> but yeah, there is something wrong
22:18:27 <SmatZ> like, you modify only 3 half-water tiles
22:18:35 <SmatZ> and it costs the same as modifying 4 half-water tiles
22:19:14 <A_Person> Do Coal Mines get depleted?
22:19:50 <Eddi|zuHause> in some newgrf industry sets, yes
22:19:51 <Nite_Owl> Not in the standard game
22:20:06 <broli> where is teh pnd stored?
22:20:09 <A_Person> Ah, but I presume oil wells do?
22:20:25 <A_Person> At least I saw mention of it on some page today, forgot which
22:20:51 <SmatZ> A_Person: yes, in temperate, they do
22:21:11 <SmatZ> their production doesn't increase, and once they die
22:22:08 <A_Person> Hmm, the magic dynamite should help demolish depleted oil wells
22:22:49 <SmatZ> A_Person: they will disappear on their own
22:23:01 <A_Person> Ah, never played to that
22:23:21 <A_Person> I'm thinking if I should put two way coal hauling into my crazy two point scheme
22:23:33 <SmatZ> I think they will die faster when you are not servicing them... but I may be wrong
22:23:36 <A_Person> coal from one station to the other's powerplant and vice versa
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22:27:10 <broli> the "shorter" one costs something like 75% cheaper
22:30:28 <broli> i did some math, it its actually 25%, by the cent
22:31:21 <broli> i can give you the exact same save game if you need it, but im asuming it can be easily reproduced
22:33:23 <sulai> I've a question about "make" when you execute it to compile openttd... if its return value is 1, does this *always* mean there are just compile errors?
22:33:42 <sulai> I've a question about "make" when you execute it to compile openttd... if its return value is 1, does this *always* mean there are just compile WARNINGS?
22:34:41 <Progman> one will be returned if the -q flag was used and make determines that a target needs to be rebuilt"
22:34:44 <glx> it may mean it reconfigured too
22:36:04 <SmatZ> broli: ok, I had wrong assumptions... price for cleaning / leveling "half-water" tile is the same as for "full-water" tile
22:36:13 <A_Person> If you fund or prospect new industries can you pick where they appear?
22:36:22 <A_Person> like, as precisely as in the scenario editor
22:36:38 <SmatZ> A_Person: "Fund" -> you choose place ; "Prospect" -> random place
22:36:51 <glx> prospect may fail and cost
22:37:18 <A_Person> and you can fund any industry of the particulate climate, right?
22:37:35 <sulai> Progman, glx: ok, so if make returns value 1 it still means you get a working openttd executable ?
22:37:38 <glx> depends on advanced settings
22:38:15 <A_Person> Well, thanks for the info, I'm sure to find out in game
22:40:05 <Eddi|zuHause> sulai: command line return values are inverse logic, 0 means "everything ok", the other values are increasing seriousness levels of errors
22:40:28 <sulai> just read the man page, thank you =)
22:41:10 <sulai> Eddi, I know, I just was curious if make returns 1 if everything is *almost* ok
22:42:40 <A_Person> I wonder if having just one square of catchment overlap an industry works, I think I remember it didn't
22:43:50 <Nite_Owl> Primary yes - secondary industries need a specific tile covered
22:44:52 <A_Person> Ah, yes, I remember I had to figure out those by trial and error
22:45:03 <A_Person> (building map for specific station size)
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22:47:17 <glx> just check the accepted/produced stuff when you build a station
22:47:48 <A_Person> Yeah, I just have to adjust the map when the stuff didn't line up as required
22:49:08 <A_Person> Oh, a silly idea for the devs: highlighting the specific square in the placement tool, hehe
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23:15:23 <broli> i think i found out whats the problem
23:15:52 <broli> i hand enough money, to even build one tile
23:16:12 <broli> so when i tried to do the full path, it tried to rise one tile on the far side
23:16:29 <broli> when i tried to stop mid water, it ttried to raise a tile on the close said
23:30:45 <fjb> Nothing to be done for this platform... do people know nothing beside Linus anymore?
23:44:41 <Rubidium> it's more about: do I want to use anything besides Linux
23:50:50 <fjb> Linux has some raw edges that disturb me. Some things are done better in other systems.
23:52:24 * Rubidium has the tendency to wreck MacOS and dislikes the gazillion autoupdaters needed to keep a Windows system up-to-date
23:52:33 <thingwath> everything has some raw edges :)
23:52:48 <thingwath> i prefer to deal with a single set of them
23:53:08 <fjb> Rubidium: There is more out there than just Linux, MacOS and Windows...
23:53:30 <SmatZ> fjb: yeah, like MorphOS :)
23:53:36 <fjb> thingwath: Some raw edges disturb me more than others.
23:53:40 <Rubidium> morphos: doesn't run on my architecture
23:53:58 <Rubidium> (open)solaris: fails to install properly
23:54:13 <ln> i'd be happy if i didn't need to close firefox or other apps on linux in order to be able to hear sounds from mplayer.
23:54:54 <Rubidium> novell: isn't quite useful for workstation/development
23:55:12 <thingwath> ln: two days ago, i was exactly that happy, now, I'm not, again :)
23:55:58 <Rubidium> OS/2 failed to install to
23:56:44 <Rubidium> and that's about all "mainstream" OSes
23:56:56 *** lobster_MB has joined #openttd
23:57:10 <Rubidium> okay, there's also BSD
23:57:16 <fjb> OS/" mainstream? You hardly find anybody remembering that OS today.
23:57:47 <fjb> BSD is way more mainstream than OS/2
23:58:37 <Rubidium> depends on your measurement characteristics ;)
23:59:30 <thingwath> it makes me feeling great about linux, even in times like this, when I can't get the #$% pulseaudio working
continue to next day ⏵
