IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-07-15
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00:34:57 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: belugas * r13705 /trunk/src/ (bridge.h tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Define and use BridgePieces enum, which will remove a few more magic numbers
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03:30:59 <Nite_Owl> Has anyone else been having sound problems with the last few nightly releases?
03:33:16 <kyevan> Maybe some volume issues switching between them and others, but not really..
03:35:00 <Nite_Owl> Well I posted the problem on the forum - Flyspray would not let me in.
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08:31:28 <Celestar> 50 passenger train stations
08:33:09 <Forked> I belive the correct internet response for this is .. "pix or it didn't happen!" :)
08:33:34 <Celestar> you can have the savegame if you wish (=
08:33:49 <Forked> at work, can't load it yet :\
08:37:16 <Forked> but anyway, nice work :)
08:37:24 <Forked> how many trains on the line?
08:37:49 <Celestar> 27 locals, 33 express
08:39:56 <Celestar> did I ever mention that PBS is awesome? ;)
08:42:37 <Celestar> can't build two-way stations without it, or at least found no means how to do it
08:45:43 <Noldo> what kind of layout do you have for two-way stations?
08:46:41 <Noldo> can you show a screenshot
08:50:32 <Noldo> what is the walking person and that bed symbol?
08:51:00 <Celestar> Noldo: hotels and something from TTRS
08:51:43 <Celestar> shows only in transparent mode
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09:13:19 <Celestar> Noldo: like the screenies? :D
09:14:13 <planetmaker> was the town faster than you? ;)
09:14:33 <Celestar> I started out with 3-lane station
09:15:08 <Celestar> I'm just ... "negotiating" about further expansion :P
09:15:40 <planetmaker> town is too big for the tree approach... :S
09:16:18 <planetmaker> build many trees. Appeases local authority
09:16:28 <planetmaker> but it has to be in a certain distance to the town centre
09:16:36 <Celestar> the whole map is full of trees already
09:16:57 <planetmaker> you can first delete them - worse than worst isn't possible - and then replant
09:17:13 <Celestar> I consider that cheating :D
09:17:55 <planetmaker> sort-of. It's exploiting the system, yes
09:18:31 <planetmaker> but cheaper than bribing :)
09:19:05 <Celestar> waiting is even cheaper :D
09:19:27 <Forked> depends on how much you lose by waiting
09:19:33 <planetmaker> yeah. But trees guarantee you 100% success, if town is small enough. Instant gratification so-to-say :P
09:20:29 <Celestar> not too much Forked, it still works fine with the present number of tracks
09:20:59 <planetmaker> but best approach is to have a small, good bus service: good rating = good standing, again and again :)
09:21:10 <Celestar> I use trams mostly however
09:21:24 <Celestar> especially to get PAX to train station
09:21:34 <Yexo> it doesn't need a good rating, just visiting 5 statiosn every 20 days is enough iirc
09:21:36 <planetmaker> or trams. I prefer them, too
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09:21:49 <planetmaker> Yexo: good rating helps town rating quite a bit
09:22:30 <planetmaker> if you've appalling station ratings, the town is unlikely to grant you anything soon...
09:23:00 <Yexo> are you sure about that? I'll check the source code
09:23:17 <planetmaker> quite sure. Number of stations and their rating influence the rise / drop of town rating.
09:23:30 <planetmaker> unserviced stations are a bad thing, too
09:23:46 <planetmaker> Yexo: it's even IIRC on the wiki
09:24:47 <Noldo> Celestar: couldn't build any better myself
09:29:56 <planetmaker> but questionable wether to call that "realistic" :)
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09:35:03 <planetmaker> Noldo: completely other topic: do you think that rivers should be flooding?
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09:36:09 <yexo> planetmaker: after seeing the code I'm 100% sure station rating does not affect town rating
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09:36:50 <planetmaker> hm... that'd contradict my experience, I'd say. But well...
09:37:07 <planetmaker> lunch now. CU later.
09:43:01 * Celestar just found the source for openttd 0.1 or something on his archives
09:44:37 <Noldo> planetmaker: well, their interaction with terraforming may seem a bit odd if they don't
09:45:03 <Noldo> the could be unterraformable
09:46:12 <Noldo> but flooding rivers requires some serious though and maybe computing too so they might not be worth it
09:58:52 <ccfreak2k> "You have too many lorries on the road! Global warming has caused the water level to rise!"
10:04:58 <Celestar> then we need battery-driver lorries :P
10:05:55 <peter1138> is that like battery-hen?
10:05:57 <MorgyN> lower co2, burn all the trees
10:06:05 <peter1138> battery-powered you mean
10:06:29 <peter1138> it's driven by a motor, not the battery
10:06:56 <Celestar> if you propel the battery fast enough out of the rear end of the truck, it's battery-driven :P
10:07:11 <MorgyN> *you have created 5 more coal powerstations, to recharge the batteries, creating a net gain of fossil fuels being burnt* =P
10:08:05 <Celestar> you can recharge the batteries using nuclear wind or PV power
10:08:57 <MorgyN> or just sod it, realise that global warming is the only thing stopping a global iceage and deal withit? ;D
10:11:13 <ccfreak2k> And move your HQ to the highest portion of the map.
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11:51:47 <Yorick> I'd say the current autoreplace is overly complex
11:52:26 <Yorick> 'if it fails, restore the backups', we should check for any possible failures before we start autoreplacing...
11:55:11 <planetmaker> Yorick: I guess Bjarni is working exactly on that...
11:55:24 <Yorick> and I don't think it should keep the cargo when replacing wagons
11:55:29 <Yorick> they don't do that in real
11:55:57 <planetmaker> indeed. Before you go to a workshop, you just dump all cargo at the nearest junk yard :P
11:56:16 <planetmaker> don't mention the 'r' words... - I was told :)
11:56:52 <Yorick> before you go to a workshop, you just dump cargo on the stations
11:57:18 <Yorick> you don't go into a depot with the passengers ON the train, replace the wagons and ask the passengers to get in the new wagons
11:57:30 <Yorick> while they've lost 2 days at getting to the depot
11:57:47 <planetmaker> I've been in such an overland bus already...
11:58:25 <planetmaker> you could either call it adventure or annoying - depends upon attitude and time constraints
11:59:17 <planetmaker> especially if the driver and co-driver don't speak the language of the people of the work shop :P
12:00:14 <Yorick> I'm looking for a proposal on a new autoreplace
12:00:46 <Rubidium> Yorick: autoreplace without backuping is actually more complex
12:02:11 <Noldo> one thing that I wondered about autoreplace backups, don't know if it's still relvant: is it really more convinient to put the backup wagon information into vehicle pool as it is only stored for a little while
12:02:55 <Rubidium> it's only that Bjarni's "new" system that actually does make the backup is very very flawed
12:04:17 <planetmaker> Rubidium: would it be an idea to disable it completely code-wise as long as it desyncs in MP?
12:04:32 <planetmaker> (e.g. just a return in the corresponding function(s))?
12:05:13 <Rubidium> planetmaker: if by disabling you mean disabling autorenew and autoreplace, then yes that can be done
12:05:27 <planetmaker> Rubidium: yes, that's what I mean
12:05:38 <Yorick> we've had troubles with it in wwottdgd
12:05:55 <Rubidium> I'm not touching auto*
12:06:00 <planetmaker> :) understandable
12:06:10 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 5 days, 15 hours, 58 minutes, and 17 seconds ago: <Bjarni> I didn't have any
12:06:50 <planetmaker> extended weekend :P
12:06:53 <peter1138> 12:51 Yorick> 'if it fails, restore the backups', we should check for any possible failures before we start autoreplacing...
12:07:26 <peter1138> NewGRF restrictions which you can only test while actually doing it
12:08:34 <Yorick> nothing should only be testable when doing it
12:09:04 <Doorslammer|BRSet> Attention everyone
12:09:07 <planetmaker> He. we found a volunteer to better that design? :)
12:09:36 <Yorick> planetmaker: we found a volunteer to better[/s]rework the autoreplace
12:09:48 <peter1138> Two methods: Make a backup copy, or make a copy to work on
12:10:14 <peter1138> Making a copy to work on would seem more logical to me
12:10:21 <Yorick> what kind of newgrfs feature these incompatible restrictions?
12:10:42 <Yorick> dbset...we got many bugs with dbset
12:10:46 <Rubidium> (and I didn't play with the rest)
12:10:48 <Yorick> the current system doesn't work
12:11:10 <peter1138> Bugs with dbset, or bugs with autoreplace and dbset?
12:11:30 <Yorick> bugs with autoreplace combined with dbset
12:11:36 <planetmaker> So far in all games I played with dbset it worked like a charm - unless incompatible grf were loaded
12:11:50 <peter1138> Right. I don't think you'll have any arguments from us that autoreplace is problematical in its current form.
12:11:51 <Yorick> planetmaker: before bjarni's backup system
12:12:26 <planetmaker> no idea since when it is around.
12:12:29 <Yorick> peter1138: it backed up cargo packets with count 0
12:12:32 <Rubidium> but... there are 'only' 4 know bugs with Bjarni's new autoreplace system
12:12:49 <planetmaker> all as critical on flyspray :P
12:12:53 <Yorick> because we can't submit bugs on patched versions
12:12:54 <peter1138> Yorick: 13:11 @peter1138> Right. I don't think you'll have any arguments from us that autoreplace is problematical in its current form.
12:14:01 <peter1138> Yorick: Indeed. You'll have to reproduce them in plain trunk.
12:14:23 <Yorick> noone plays plain trunk...
12:15:27 <peter1138> Even if that were true, what does that have to do with reproducing bugs?
12:15:32 <planetmaker> also the fair play server
12:16:41 <Yorick> because reproducing bugs is quite hard
12:17:03 <planetmaker> he, yeah. I still have this assert yesterday with no idea how to reproduce...
12:17:22 <Yorick> and because the bugs on flyspray that have to do with autoreplace don't get fixed anytime soon
12:17:29 <Yorick> some of them are there more than a year
12:18:03 <Rubidium> Yorick: what autoreplace bug is on FS for more than a year?
12:21:02 <Yorick> I submitted a fix for 1890 multiple times
12:22:06 <Rubidium> okay, so more than a year is more than 5 months
12:22:35 <planetmaker> Rubidium: he's talking of mercury years :P
12:22:38 <Yorick> I have some strange time perspectives ^^
12:24:57 <Rubidium> and by the way FS#1264 is the bug Bjarni's trying to solve with his autoreplace rewrite
12:25:23 <Yorick> peter1138: you're wrong at the newgrf restrictions
12:25:27 <DorpsGek> dih: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 5 days, 16 hours, 17 minutes, and 33 seconds ago: <Bjarni> I didn't have any
12:26:51 <Yorick> * When performing the 'allow wagon attach' callback, we have to check* that for each and every wagon, not only the first one. This means* that we have to test one wagon, attach it to the train and then test the next wagon till we have reached the end.
12:26:53 <Yorick> * We have to restore it to the state it was before we 'tried' attaching the train when the attaching fails or succeeds because we are not 'only' doing this in the DC_EXEC state.
12:33:48 <Yorick> it seems that the whole autoreplace backup is based on the false assumption that newgrf wagon attachement can only be tested by actually doing it
12:34:32 <peter1138> That's false is it?
12:35:31 <Yorick> meh, the CMD_MOVE_WAGON also tests the wagon attachement callback without DC_EXEC, but then undoes it
12:40:27 <Rubidium> not to mention that the wagon attach callback can query any vehicle (wagons and engines) in a train
12:42:54 <Yorick> just I wonder if I should transfer the cargo...
12:45:41 <Yorick> do you have any reasons for that?
12:47:02 <Forked> Why not make it so that nothing is autoreplaced if it contains cargo .. (of coure that would suck for passenger lines, unless they had "unload all, go and replace, then if possible go back and fill up and continue on their merry way)
12:47:06 <Rubidium> the moment of vehicle autoreplace isn't controllable by players in most cases
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12:51:04 <Yorick> is it very expected that the cargo would stay on a new vehicle?
12:53:40 <MorgyN> because auto replace vehicles would suddenly nom your profit for the year =P
12:54:29 <Yorick> they don't replace trains that are full in real
12:54:47 <Yorick> hmm, only autoreplace if empty/
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12:56:02 <MorgyN> Reality also doesn't have a godlike person who can raise and lower land at will...
12:56:30 <MorgyN> I think keeping the goods in trucks is a minor concern
12:56:31 <Rubidium> Yorick: in real life a train isn't autoreplaced
12:57:08 <Rubidium> they just buy a new engine or a few new wagons and remove the old ones from service (over time)
12:57:33 <MorgyN> generally they service them when empty too
12:57:58 <MorgyN> because the people who are paying the hauliage firm would be damn pissed if thier 200tonne of coal went missing
12:58:10 <MorgyN> "Yeah we dumped it cause we replaced the carridge"
12:58:32 <Forked> -That is perfectly all right, old chap. Happens all the time.
12:59:23 <Rubidium> would be interesting for the international train from Amsterdam to Berlin; they change engine at the border, should all passengers vanish in thin air at that moment too?
13:00:01 <planetmaker> They're auto-converted from Dutch to German :P
13:00:23 <Rubidium> and the German engine's better ;)
13:00:34 <planetmaker> but do they change engine? I don't think so... lol ^ :)
13:01:08 <Rubidium> it takes soo long that I think they really change the engine
13:01:14 <Rubidium> and repaint the locomotive ;)
13:01:35 <planetmaker> I cannot remember that the last times I took that connection, though... pretty fast :)
13:02:11 <planetmaker> maybe I was lucky :)
13:02:22 <Rubidium> it's a timetabled stop of 15 minutes
13:02:46 <planetmaker> hm. ok... - I guess I had a good book :)
13:02:54 <Rubidium> or you took another train ;)
13:03:51 <planetmaker> na, it was Hannover-Amsterdam - which is part of the Berlin-Amsterdam connection :)
13:04:37 <planetmaker> no ICE, though :(
13:04:59 <Rubidium> I really hate what they've done with that connection though
13:05:53 <Rubidium> they made the train stop more often
13:06:05 <Rubidium> meaning Hengelo->Amersfoort takes 15 minutes more
13:06:12 <Rubidium> and they made it part of the 'normal' timetable
13:06:20 <planetmaker> eh, yeah. Last time I travelled there, they had the train end at Amersfoort :S
13:06:35 <Sacro> Celestar: is that YAPP?
13:06:40 <planetmaker> due to being late. hehe... :(
13:06:46 <Rubidium> meaning that if that train has a delay (which it usually has) there is no backup
13:07:09 <Rubidium> you have to wait 30 minutes for the next train which might even have to wait for the delayed international train
13:07:12 <Sacro> Celestar: you might be better moving the sighnal from the end line
13:07:49 <Rubidium> previously if the international train had a delay you could get on a train and arrive at Amersfoort only 15 minutes later instead of 30
13:08:09 <Yorick> Rubidium: Hilversum->Utrecht now takes some less
13:08:12 <Rubidium> and all in all it means that my average traveltime increased by over 30 minutes
13:09:26 <Rubidium> and I'm actively avoiding that train now
13:10:07 <planetmaker> ^ Does that help? e.g. are there quicker connections for you?
13:10:26 <Rubidium> yes, as the chance of delay gets reduced by ~90%
13:10:48 <Rubidium> though the connection is still 30 minutes longer than before
13:11:07 <planetmaker> He. That's called "improved service", I guess
13:11:37 <Rubidium> and when the international train now has a delay it usually ends up with 90 minutes delay w.r.t. when the international train drove sanely
13:11:54 <Rubidium> (and I would've taken that train)
13:12:23 <Rubidium> Celestar: that network isn't that complex and you've got plenty of space there
13:13:09 <Celestar> Rubidium: no, it's not complex
13:13:47 <Celestar> Rubidium: but I can finally build my beloved 2-way stations :D
13:13:49 <Rubidium> you had seen my map already, right?
13:14:08 <Celestar> Rubidium: how much is your transported cargo units on that map?
13:14:19 <Yorick> I think i'll use the idea of working on a copy of the train
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13:14:45 <Yorick> and instead of modifying one, just add one, and if it's complete, remove the old train
13:15:01 <planetmaker> how do I get quickly the info about my overall transported cargo?
13:15:14 <Rubidium> performance ratings detail
13:15:21 <planetmaker> ... oh right ^ :P
13:15:27 <Rubidium> pile final is ~460,000
13:15:41 <planetmaker> pile transport was a member zone, right?
13:15:49 <Celestar> I'm only at about 150000.
13:15:51 <Ammler> planetmaker: that was before
13:16:06 <Ammler> there was no sandbox at that time.
13:16:12 <Rubidium> pile's map is 1024x1024, mine is 128x128
13:16:20 <planetmaker> oh, even then :) Loooong time ago. :)
13:16:43 <planetmaker> Rubidium: you try to really squeeze out the map, eh? :)
13:17:01 <planetmaker> Celestar: early name of public server
13:17:50 <Rubidium> and the main problem with a small map is that there's not enough space
13:18:58 <planetmaker> Rubidium: I easily believe the "not enough space" :)
13:19:27 <Celestar> Rubidium: how many stations on that map?
13:19:53 <Yorick> 'that's an old version of isr
13:20:39 <Rubidium> 15-20-ish excluding oil rigs
13:21:03 <Celestar> I'm curently trying to deal with 72 passenger-only-train stations
13:22:29 <planetmaker> Rubidium: nice :) But I see a lot of station walking there, too :)
13:22:54 <planetmaker> do you transport pax only by ship?
13:23:10 <Rubidium> not enough space for a train network
13:23:11 <planetmaker> but I like your extensive use of ships.
13:23:22 <planetmaker> Rubidium: but tram might work :) Or blimps
13:23:32 <planetmaker> Horse carriage :)
13:23:35 <Rubidium> planetmaker: tried that
13:23:46 <Rubidium> but the throughput of the stations wasn't enough
13:24:05 <Celestar> I need some kind of throughput monitor
13:24:05 <planetmaker> :) I'd maybe use them very short-range to transfer to the ship terminal
13:24:12 <Rubidium> trams couldn't get loaded/unloaded quickly enough
13:25:06 <Rubidium> and with ships you can have 50 loading at the same time
13:25:27 <Rubidium> and with a capacity more than a tram that's really worth it
13:25:27 <Yorick> if you turn off queing
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13:25:57 <Rubidium> and with ships the footprint on the map is smaller
13:27:04 <Celestar> meh one train with 31 orders in its list
13:28:32 <planetmaker> [15:26] <planetmaker> bugger. Our server crashed: Error: NOT_REACHED triggered at line 101 of /home/openttd/svn-public/src/vehicle_gui.h
13:28:34 <planetmaker> [15:26] <planetmaker> openttd: /home/openttd/svn-public/src/openttd.cpp:142: void error(const char*, ...): Assertion `0' failed. (r13697)
13:28:35 <planetmaker> [15:26] <planetmaker> we'll try to re-produce...
13:28:57 <planetmaker> had that yesterday with my client only... but couldn't reproduce it...
13:29:29 <yexo> the server crahsed in vehicle_gui.h?
13:29:39 <Yorick> so did all the clients
13:30:06 <Celestar> crap I overloaded one of my station
13:30:11 <Yorick> static inline WindowClass GetWindowClassForVehicleType(VehicleType vt)
13:30:56 <Yorick> probably a command that calls it
13:31:01 <planetmaker> server didn't crash yesterday, only clients
13:32:02 <yexo> <Yorick> probably a command that calls it <- no, because in that case the clients wouldn't have crashed, because the server had already crashed before the command was send to the clients
13:32:28 <Yorick> would a server care about (closing?) windows?
13:34:11 <planetmaker> should I post this without a clue how to re-produce on flyspray?
13:34:43 <Rubidium> if you want it to be closed with unreproducable, then yes. If you want it fixed, then no
13:34:58 <planetmaker> I'd feel a bit... bad about that as it probably won't be much of a helpful post... :D ^
13:35:07 <Rubidium> though I suspect it's auto* related
13:35:23 <planetmaker> not sure... but maybe
13:35:32 <Yorick> like on a DISASTER/CRASHED vehicle
13:35:55 <Yorick> there was something with a crash on the order gui...
13:36:23 <Rubidium> it's way more likely that it was an invalid vehicle it was called on
13:36:51 <Celestar> ok closing in on 200000 deliverd units of cargo
13:37:45 <planetmaker> how does it work, if some people have autorenew switched on, some not?
13:38:09 <Yorick> but not synced per company
13:38:29 <Yorick> I suspect it's a command a client sends out
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13:38:59 <planetmaker> peter1138: what happens, if the server gets different info for one company?
13:39:14 <Rubidium> Yorick's suspicions are flawed again
13:39:34 <yexo> <yexo> <Yorick> probably a command that calls it <- no, because in that case the clients wouldn't have crashed, because the server had already crashed before the command was send to the clients
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13:40:11 <Rubidium> using wwwottdgdwhatever?
13:40:13 <Yorick> I think it's an auto* relate thing
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13:40:24 <yexo> if the crash would happen in a command, the server would have crashed before it was able to send the command to all clients
13:40:25 <planetmaker> how is one able to produce invalid vehicles, Rubidium ?
13:40:37 <yexo> so the clients wouldn't crash, but just get a "server exited" or so
13:40:47 <planetmaker> Rubidium: no, we're using r13697 on the server w/o mods
13:40:54 <Rubidium> Vehicle *v = valid_vehicle; delete v; v->type == INVALID
13:41:17 <Rubidium> i.e. just by deleting vehicles
13:41:33 <planetmaker> so... on person working on a vehicle, the other deleting it?
13:41:35 <Rubidium> which happens during auto*
13:41:52 <Rubidium> but also during that
13:42:10 <planetmaker> is there a way to forbid the server to use auto* in current trunks?
13:42:12 <Rubidium> but in that case one command would fail and remove the vehicle and such from the depot
13:42:32 <planetmaker> or is that the "wait for Bjarni"? :)
13:42:35 <Yorick> planetmaker: if (cp->cmd & 0xff == CMD_SET_AUTOREPLACE) return
13:42:55 <planetmaker> Yorick: I don't feel like patching the ps...
13:43:07 <Yorick> you do feel like desyncing?
13:43:21 <planetmaker> it's (also) supposed to be a trunk test server - at least in my eyes.
13:44:19 <Yorick> how does v->cargo_type work with multicargo stuff (planes)
13:44:36 <planetmaker> I don't want to lose the support here with using patched versions :)
13:45:02 <Yorick> planetmaker: ps was long time patched for 11 clients
13:45:14 <planetmaker> Yorick: ... _was_ ...
13:45:29 <Yorick> peter1138: what do you mean?
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13:45:55 <yexo> Yorick: for planes the '
13:46:04 <yexo> shadow is another vehicle with the second cargo_type
13:46:37 <yexo> is it possible to have road vehicels with multiple cargo types?
13:47:05 <Yorick> but it's a silly way...
13:47:17 <peter1138> Tough, that's how it's done.
13:47:53 <Rubidium> why is it actually silly?
13:48:05 <peter1138> Rework for the sake of it?
13:48:11 <Yorick> using the shadow for anything useful
13:49:23 <Rubidium> peter1138: more like rework for the sake of complexifying already complex functions
13:49:34 <Rubidium> like the refit and cargo loading/unloading/payment functions
13:49:58 <Yorick> and what is cargo_type filled with on trains?
13:50:18 <Rubidium> the cargo type of the wagon/engine
13:50:34 <Rubidium> and for ships it's the cargo type of the ship
13:50:54 <Yorick> and roadvehicles the cargotype of the first part?
13:51:13 <Rubidium> and for road vehicles it's the cargo type of the road vehicle's articulated part
13:51:44 <Rubidium> (also the case for articulated train engines/wagons though)
13:51:52 <Yorick> I wonder if the bug where only the first part of the articulated vehicle got refitted is fixed
13:55:02 <bowman> why would you need a cargo unit smaller than one road vehicle hehe
13:58:33 <MorgyN> I've never made an articulated vehicles
13:58:58 <MorgyN> When do they come into the game under stock units?
14:02:22 <planetmaker> hm... where would river creation be better placed: seperate call as GenerateTowns() - or included in tgp.cpp ?
14:02:45 <Celestar> meh I think I have overloaded my network
14:02:55 <Celestar> trains are getting lost
14:03:00 <Yorick> planetmaker: you're building that?
14:03:02 <planetmaker> tgp.cpp might have the advantage, that I have there the height map and a gradient is easier calculated :)
14:03:12 <planetmaker> Yorick: no. I'm just thinking
14:03:30 <Yorick> you should make lively rivers then
14:03:31 <planetmaker> I'm not building anything unless I made some serious progress on it :)
14:03:56 <planetmaker> _IF_ I make rivers, I only place them
14:04:34 <planetmaker> making them lively _might_ be a 2nd step. But first the first has to be made
14:07:11 <Celestar> :S I need faster trains :S
14:07:27 <Yorick> planetmaker: the lively spec includes only placing a source, then they generate themselves
14:09:09 <Yorick> if an aircraft gets refitted, it can then only carry ONE cargo, true?
14:11:32 <Celestar> Yorick: normal planes can carry either passengers and cargo, or cargo only. Except small planes (<100 seats) who normally carry passengers only or cargo only
14:11:57 <Yorick> and how about newgrfs?
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14:18:59 <planetmaker> Yorick: but lively rivers is an ingame functionality - with much higher impact. Creation of rivers is on thing which needs doing anyway
14:19:26 <planetmaker> and the problem with lively rivers is how you avoid having stub river mouths, if you cut it.
14:21:00 <planetmaker> my idea is to use some kind of max. gradient approach on a possibly somewhat smoothed terrain... and some random noise on top of it
14:21:04 <planetmaker> so far: just ideas.
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14:30:26 <Rubidium> Yorick: closing windows is a bad idea
14:30:51 <Yorick> some invalid parts might be opened
14:31:02 <Yorick> refit window, for example
14:31:29 <Rubidium> invalidate the data of that window
14:32:05 <Yorick> that's all for later :)
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14:41:10 <Yorick> I think we should be able to set specific vehicles for autoreplace
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14:48:25 <Rubidium> like all vehicles of a specific group?
14:51:37 <Celestar> Yorick: we have that option with groups
14:51:46 <Celestar> man I have more lost trains than the russian railways
14:52:36 <Yorick> but I'm planning to add a button for a specific train :)
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15:04:54 <dih> if it had been updated, it would have been posted there
15:05:04 <dih> if it had been put into trunk, you'd find it in the changelog
15:06:46 <jez9999> i need to ask Bjarni, really
15:07:03 <DorpsGek> dih: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 5 days, 18 hours, 59 minutes, and 9 seconds ago: <Bjarni> I didn't have any
15:07:05 <planetmaker> @seen B.... --> 2 weeks ago :)
15:07:05 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: seen [<channel>] <nick>
15:08:14 <Yorick> I'm currently working on the autoreplace too
15:08:56 <dih> usually, when there is an update ready to be published, people do so....
15:12:39 <Yorick> jez: I have just started
15:15:26 <jez9999> Yorick: autoconvert when you change track type?
15:15:40 <Yorick> reworking certain stuff
15:17:43 <dih> Yorick: why is it you always start working on stuff that others are already working on?
15:18:59 <jez9999> Yorick: if you look at the thread i posted above, it would be nice if the requested changes to autoconvert were made :-)
15:19:05 <jez9999> then my patch can work perfectly
15:20:19 <dih> jez9999: why dont you do it yourself?
15:20:31 <Yorick> I am not working on autorefit, and I was asking 3
15:21:06 <dih> 17:18 < Yorick> give me 2 example
15:21:33 <dih> so you asked for 3 after you noticed that coming up with 2 is amazingly easy
15:21:39 <Yorick> and I asked planetmaker NOT to include the mute patch into wwottdgd, because it was only for testing purposes, you then discontinued work and planetmaker forgot about that
15:21:46 <dih> jez9999: would you stop that please?
15:22:17 <dih> am i talking to you Yorick?
15:22:35 <jez9999> <Yorick> I am not working on autorefit, and I was asking 3
15:23:01 <Yorick> of me working on stuff that others are already working on
15:23:12 <Yorick> dih: the original question was directed to me
15:24:12 <jez9999> how can you be working on autoreplace but not autorefit?
15:24:14 <planetmaker> kiddies, please...!
15:24:15 <jez9999> the two go hand in hand
15:24:28 <jez9999> they certainly ought to
15:24:53 <dih> pm: i need a bigger ignore list i think... ;-)
15:24:54 <jez9999> when i say refit i mean changing wagons, although i guess refitting engines should also be included
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15:58:38 <Yorick> shouldn't we get the ordercopy click to the ShowVehicle, so it works in all cases?
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16:36:26 <ArmEagle> Hi Purno.. I left some comments on the Dutch Catenary stuff again :).
16:36:51 <ArmEagle> I hope it's making sense.
16:37:11 <ArmEagle> anyway, i'm out for a bit, getting food.
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17:14:14 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: frosch * r13706 /trunk/src/mixer.cpp: -Fix (r13695): Small typo.
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17:36:58 <Yorick> Rubidium: you don't need to send commands over the network if they're called by the autoreplace, as it's called everywhere when a vehicle services, right?
17:38:21 <Eddi|zuHause> only user actions must be transferred
17:39:10 <Rubidium> autoreplace is done locally, i.e. not sent over the network
17:39:22 <Yorick> then does the command have to?
17:39:47 <Yorick> I see no trouble at a DC_AUTOREPLACE flag
17:40:10 <Rubidium> restoring the order backups is done by sending commands over the network
17:40:34 <frosch123> IIRC the order list is stored per depot window.
17:40:45 <Rubidium> it's stored only once
17:40:49 <SmatZ> it is stored locally, and in a global variable
17:40:50 <Yorick> oh, that kind of order list
17:41:28 <Yorick> flags are sent over the network, I'd say
17:42:42 <Yorick> lets get another flag then
17:43:15 <Rubidium> to say: here you have some data that is currently invalid, but will become valid after a few other commands
17:43:19 <SmatZ> why not first set all non-conditional orders, and then restore other orders?
17:43:23 <SmatZ> is that too complicated?
17:44:17 <Yorick> SmatZ: because you could then still have invalid ids, because of the space the conditional orders take
17:44:46 <SmatZ> you would have to recompute IDs
17:45:33 <frosch123> You could set them to order 0, and add a command to edit the destination...
17:46:04 <Rubidium> Yorick: you are suggesting that OpenTTD accepts data that is invalid at the point of command execution?
17:46:30 <Yorick> frosch's idea is better
17:47:08 <Rubidium> that'd also be OpenTTD accepting invalid data
17:47:21 <ln> hmmwtf, a Wii game subtitled in German.
17:48:01 <SmatZ> problem is that you can have what Rubidium said when you edit orders
17:48:02 <Rubidium> 1: jump to 1 is also invalid
17:48:13 <SmatZ> like 1: go to station A ; 2 : jump to 1
17:48:33 <SmatZ> it would be hard to recover this order
17:49:12 <Rubidium> Yorick: infinite loop?
17:49:38 <SmatZ> and jump destination is checked to be valid before order is created
17:49:44 <Yorick> lets just insert a null-order
17:57:01 <SmatZ> you can use a GoTo Depot order as placeholder
17:57:16 <SmatZ> one could call that a hack though...
17:57:24 <Yorick> you can use other things as a better placeholder
17:58:43 <SmatZ> well I would call that a hack, too
17:59:27 <SmatZ> though hacked clients would have no advantage from setting ORDER_NULL
18:00:39 <Yorick> I'd say ORDER_NULL would do nothing and just get skipped
18:01:20 <Yorick> it's just a placeholder
18:09:16 <frosch123> Hmm, am I right that this problem also applies to restoring ship orders which are too far from previous destination (i.e. after deleting some order)?
18:16:22 <Yorick> I think it's quite related to fs#1890
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18:24:52 <Eddi|zuHause> why not check the orders at execution time instead?
18:26:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, no matter how much you statically check them at creation time, you can always have infinite loops and stuff
18:27:41 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: order 5: jump to order 10
18:28:09 <SmatZ> I am not sure if it should be allowed to create such orders
18:28:10 <Yorick> how is that done with copying orders?
18:28:33 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: yes, if such an order is executed, throw an "train x has invalid order" message
18:28:36 <SmatZ> it is done internally, in one command
18:28:51 <Yorick> Eddi: better do that with the order review
18:29:34 <Yorick> SmatZ: turns out there is an ORDER_DUMMY, why not use that as placeholder?
18:30:49 <SmatZ> simply, I am not in favour of allowing users to create invalid orders
18:30:53 <SmatZ> but if there is no other way...
18:31:01 <SmatZ> Rubidium is the order guru ;-)
18:31:21 <Yorick> SmatZ: it would already be possible CURRENTLY
18:31:38 <SmatZ> Yorick: then it is a bug and should be fixed :-P
18:32:37 <Yorick> well why can't they have placeholder orders that do nothing?
18:34:15 <Yorick> the dummy is currently used for invalid orders
18:34:42 <Wolf01> eheh my laments were listened, days, months, years of laments about orders not working as I need :D
18:36:10 <Yorick> frosch: fs#2142 fixed :)
18:37:09 <frosch123> Thanks Yorick, but I am also in #openttd.notice :)
18:38:28 <frosch123> Yorick: task closed :p
18:38:42 <SmatZ> Wolf01: so you are a happy wolf now?
18:38:46 <Yorick> on to the other 3000 tasks!
18:39:13 <frosch123> What do you mean, shall I close all 'feature requests' and 'patches' ?
18:39:13 <Wolf01> maybe, I should try It first :P
18:39:58 <Yorick> frosch: if yapp is also there, and you also commit stuff...
18:41:09 <Wolf01> I want to finish my drag&drop place roadstops, I need it to extend roadstops adjacent to 2 different stations
18:45:20 <Yorick> I can't seem to reproduce FS#2129
18:46:00 <Yorick> oh, you need to redraw :)
19:20:27 <Yorick> weeh, I got assert-thingy
19:20:58 <Yorick> the same we had with wwottdgd
19:21:54 <Yorick> but only if I do not sell the old plane
19:33:35 <ArmEagle> The plane boss! The Plane!
19:51:52 <tuxtgz> anyone there who speaks german?
19:54:30 <tuxtgz> my question is still in german very diffcult too understand.. :P
19:54:56 <Eddi|zuHause> we'll never know...
19:55:38 <tuxtgz> year.. should i use a bouncer to chat with you Yorick ;) mh ok
19:56:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Yorick: what's wrong with that? :p
19:57:36 <ln> Die Deutschen haben die Brücke erreicht!
19:57:47 <tuxtgz> ok is it more useful(financl aspect) to connect two companies which are far away oder to connect two who still next to each other:P
19:58:16 <tuxtgz> ok in deutsch nochmal... ist es besser wenn ich zwei sachen verbinde welche weit entfernt sind um so mehr geld zu bekommen? oder wie wird der ticket preis errrechnet? :P
19:58:42 <tuxtgz> how does openttd calculate the price i get for a transport? <- thats my question;)
19:58:58 <Rubidium> wiki->game mechanics I reckon
19:59:03 <Yorick> you can better connect 2 industries that are far away from eachother
19:59:12 <ln> ich glaube daß zwei sachen weit entfernt mehr geld verdienen, wenn du genug viele zuge hast.
19:59:20 <Yorick> it has a distance/time stuff
20:02:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: it's a wiki, edit it :p
20:03:18 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: I normally do, but with stuff like this (new pages created) I'd like some other opinions
20:04:18 <Eddi|zuHause> when he's saying "new openttd" i'm immediately thinking of Yet Another IN
20:05:16 <SmatZ> Batti5 is probably not fully mentally evolved
20:05:43 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: No. YetAnotherThings are usally trunk candidates :p
20:06:01 <Yorick> "hi im batti5 & this is my new project new openttd!"
20:06:01 <Rubidium> Yexo: I don't really care about the wiki
20:06:24 <Yexo> other opinions? ok if I move them to under his user page?
20:06:26 <Rubidium> and new openttd is nothing more than another opntitle.dat and 32 bits graphics
20:07:30 <Yorick> "I Have crated a new OpenTTD interface form the OpenGFX project do you all like it if yes it coud be in the least-es nigtly no?" <-- I might understand more if he made less typos
20:07:57 <Yorick> and it's nowhere new openttd interface
20:08:13 <Yorick> it's 5 graphics changed and useless arrow keys added
20:09:37 <Eddi|zuHause> of course! those arrows immediately add support for more climates!
20:10:54 <frosch123> Someone should suggest him to add checkboxes to the climates to combine them in one landscape :p
20:12:09 <Yorick> and he should use that blowup button for the magic bulldozer instead
20:13:31 <ln> but so yeah, a Wii game *subtitled* in german, is that normal?
20:14:44 <ln> texts in german, but speech in english, with subtitles.
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20:19:09 <Eddi|zuHause> ln: subtitles are quite rare in german
20:19:41 <Eddi|zuHause> more common with japanese speech
20:20:37 <ln> the whole concept of a game with subtitles is new to me, but i'm not familiar with that many modern games.
20:21:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm quite certain some of the final fantasy games were subtitled
20:21:53 <Eddi|zuHause> but i have never played any of them myself
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20:37:02 <tuxtgz> what are the advantages at transhipping of passengers?
20:37:51 <Eddi|zuHause> you are interpreting too much into this game ;)
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22:56:33 <Sacro> openttd needs a 1280x800 res
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22:59:10 <bilbous> is there any way to optimize car/truck stations?
22:59:33 <yexo> bilbous: what have you already tried?
22:59:46 <yexo> you can add multiple stops or try drive-through stations
23:00:42 <bilbous> I have a truck station, drive through that is 4 wide by three deep and the trucks all want to go to the same row
23:01:21 <bilbous> I always end up with linups and free stations
23:02:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure if there is actually a setting for multistop
23:04:25 <bilbous> It is this sort of thing that makes me try to ignore road vehicles just as I ignore boats
23:06:18 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the feature is definitely there, just i thought it was always switched on
23:06:32 <bilbous> Maybe it has something to do with load availability
23:07:36 <yexo> I don't have such problems with drive-through stops atm (doing a quick test)
23:07:38 <bilbous> my truck stop is at a low yield woodlot and the trucks are always waiting...too many truck
23:07:57 <Eddi|zuHause> <Sacro> openttd needs a 1280x800 res <- what is wrong with 1680x1050?
23:07:59 <yexo> having 1 or 2 trucks waiting should be enough
23:08:26 <yexo> Sacro: not too big, you have a lot of room to keep several windows open and still be able to view something ;)
23:08:56 <bilbous> if you are playing windowed you can scale it arbitrarily, at least in linux
23:09:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: anyway, if your graphics card supports it, it should be there
23:09:19 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: course it does
23:09:35 <Sacro> and i want a 16:10 window that doesn't take up the full screen
23:09:41 <Rubidium> :O Sacro runs a sane resolution ;)
23:09:43 <yexo> I always play windowed and then maximum window size
23:10:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: afaik the resolution can be changed in the .cfg
23:10:27 <Rubidium> 1920x1200 is a sane resolution
23:11:12 <Eddi|zuHause> 1280x768 or something
23:11:25 <bilbous> 1280x800 shows up in my res list.
23:12:06 <yexo> I have both 1280x800 and 1280x768 as available resolutions
23:12:07 <Eddi|zuHause> back in my CRT days i ran on 1280x960
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23:14:20 <Gura> Just wanted to thank everyone who put the amazing effort in making openttd happen
23:14:24 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: everyone was last seen in #openttd 24 weeks, 4 days, 4 hours, 21 minutes, and 53 seconds ago: * Everyone has aids
23:14:29 <Gura> it's a joy to see this game still live after so many years
23:15:55 <Gura> anyone has a good link for tips for this game?
23:16:18 <Gura> been there, I am looking for more people specific strategies
23:16:49 <yexo> money making? creating efficient trains tracks?
23:17:05 <Gura> efficient train tracks, priority of goods and their transfer
23:17:28 <yexo> have a look at some openttdcoop games (www.openttdcoop.org and/or #openttdcoop)
23:17:31 <Gura> especially the goods, since I don't want to destroy cities to put my rail station to accept goods in the middle
23:18:01 <yexo> ever heard of stationwalking?
23:18:25 <Gura> you refering to puting stations back to back?
23:18:57 <yexo> you build a 1x1 station that accepts goods, and 'move' the station (keeping the first 1s1 piece in place) by building new pieces next to it and then removing the middle parts
23:19:16 <yexo> that way you only need 1 tile within the town for acceptance and the station can be outside the town
23:19:43 <yexo> but most of the time there are building at the edge of the town that accept goods, so you don't need to destroy the whole city
23:19:59 <Gura> why do they stop accepting goods after some time?
23:20:09 <Gura> and the whole track kind of becomes useless
23:20:29 <yexo> some city buildings accept goods, and some don't
23:20:41 <yexo> so if a building was replaced, it's possible your station no longer accepts goods
23:21:00 <yexo> just make the city grow a bit (or choose a larger city to begin with) and it'll accept goods again
23:21:44 <Gura> when you said station walking, do I need to keep the original one in place still?
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23:22:14 <Gura> and at the end of it my other station can actually be on completly other side away from city?
23:22:35 <Gura> hmm, cool. I'll try that
23:22:41 <Gura> when you are starting the station empire
23:22:54 <yexo> you might need to set "max station spread" a bit higher (under configure patches -> stations)
23:23:12 <Gura> is the goal to create circle of oil, goods -> city or to put as many different routes gather different resources?
23:23:32 <yexo> that is entirely up to you :p
23:23:50 <Gura> so there is nothing specific that is required then huh
23:24:04 <yexo> I like to build enourmous rail networks, so I transport for example all coal the in the map to 1 powerplant
23:24:04 <Gura> I've played hundred games but I never finished one lol
23:24:21 <yexo> and I don't care about finishing a game in terms of playing 100 years
23:24:28 <yexo> just have fun with it :)
23:27:51 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: miham * r13707 /trunk/src/lang/ (11 files): (log message trimmed)
23:27:53 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-07-16 01:21:36
23:27:53 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 3 fixed by tucalipe (3)
23:27:55 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: bulgarian - 78 fixed, 230 changed by thetitan (3), groupsky (305)
23:27:55 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: catalan - 3 fixed by arnaullv (3)
23:27:57 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: dutch - 3 fixed by webfreakz (3)
23:27:57 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: italian - 3 changed by lorenzodv (3)
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continue to next day ⏵
