IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-07-05
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00:00:20 <Eddi|zuHause3> uk is like a mixture of every major european culture ;)
00:01:00 <Eddi|zuHause3> most obvious in the language ;)
00:02:35 <Eddi|zuHause3> anyway, i'd have grouped europe like this: south (mediterranean, from ancient greek and ancient roman), center and north (germanic) and east (slavic)
00:03:30 <joachim> i think i agree, north is from denmark then, and south/center border is the french/german?
00:04:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> south/center border is basically the alps
00:04:32 <joachim> ok, historically thats fine
00:04:39 <Eddi|zuHause3> and in the middle of france
00:05:02 <Eddi|zuHause3> where that border is a little fuzzy in france ;)
00:05:31 <joachim> still, i can't help myself, i have been to most european countries and i'd like to move to the netherlands :)
00:05:56 <Eddi|zuHause3> germanic tribes moved into the former roman territory, and the habits mixed
00:06:01 <joachim> probably not likely since i'm on the wrong side of the economy...
00:06:56 * Poopsmith is still unsure whether he wants to move to germany or stay here (nz)
00:07:22 <joachim> unless i was born and raised (and bored)
00:07:37 <Poopsmith> yeah, thats what it is
00:07:55 <joachim> ok, then i'd leave :P
00:08:10 <joachim> as long as you get a better standard of living
00:09:00 <joachim> or equal or a tiny bit less, it's always nice to experience a different culture
00:09:24 <Poopsmith> spent a month there when i was 15 (school exchange)
00:09:47 <Eddi|zuHause3> a month is hardly enough to get to know a country ;)
00:09:49 <joachim> ok.. i've been there as well
00:10:11 <Poopsmith> Eddi|zuHause3: yeah, i know :-P and especially when you're 15 :P
00:10:23 <joachim> the difference between western and eastern germany is striking
00:11:12 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, it's (slowly) going back to the traditional north-south difference ;)
00:14:12 <joachim> well, for us half socialists in scandinavia it's weird to see people in one country having that different standard
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07:46:11 <ben_goodger> and this is to be this morning's conversation: a series of varied greetings punctuated by awkward silence
07:46:31 <Poopsmith> yep, something like that
07:46:34 <Poopsmith> except its evening ;-)
07:50:25 * Poopsmith walks back, eyeing Wolf01 with suspicion
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08:55:05 <dih> network/network.cpp:44 needs removing if i am not mistaken
08:55:21 <dih> the variable _network_reload_cfg is not used anywhere...
08:55:36 <dih> it's been made network.reload_cfg
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09:42:50 <planetmaker> while I did that, I guess it's not the intention of the system that user confirm their own reports, ey?
09:47:32 <Alberth> I guess it goes without saying (the other way around would be quite interesting to happen)
09:48:01 <Rubidium> planetmaker: I marked it as confirmed
09:48:19 <planetmaker> hu? right when I entered it yesterday?
09:48:28 <planetmaker> But maybe I was just too tired then :)
09:48:37 <Rubidium> but it was New when I first looked at it
09:48:53 <planetmaker> ah, then you've been at least in my impression lightening fast :)
09:49:19 <peter1138> long standing ttd bug
09:49:23 <planetmaker> but good to know that it's been just my tiredness then... sorry for bothering
09:49:29 <Rubidium> if ~8 hours is lightning fast, then yes
09:51:53 <planetmaker> speed of light can be as low as a few 10 km/s... - just a question of matter :P
09:53:26 <dih> consider the major time difference between the 2 of you :-P
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09:58:56 * peter1138 wants some slow glass
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10:09:15 <Gekz> I remember reading about that
10:15:09 <Mchl> <planetmaker> hehe. You need rubidium in order to stop light <- oh my, how much of coincidence is that? :D
10:22:50 <Doorslammer|BRSet> Rubidium created the heaven and the Earth and I claim my $5
10:30:50 <ben_goodger> I call BS. the FSM created the heaven, the other heaven and the earth :P
10:35:05 <Prof_Frink> Praise be to his noodly appendage.
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15:07:51 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 2 days, 18 hours, 59 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <Bjarni> I didn't have any
15:08:14 <Sacro> he never did have any, that's why he's singe
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16:13:23 <DorpsGek> ln: I have not seen woman.
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16:30:39 <DorpsGek> Mirrakor: I have not seen a_pretty_girl.
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17:01:27 <Doorslammer|BRSet> Oi, question :P
17:02:31 <Doorslammer|BRSet> How can OTTD be made to use win GRFs instead of DOS GRFs?
17:02:39 <Doorslammer|BRSet> And vice versa
17:02:47 <hylje> provide windows GRFs instead of DOS GRFs
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17:03:49 <Noldo> and using the corresponding original graphic files
17:04:26 <Doorslammer|BRSet> Hey, its my question, get your own ;)
17:04:47 <Doorslammer|BRSet> What if said GRFs are not available?
17:05:00 <hylje> the game refuses to run as it is
17:05:01 <Doorslammer|BRSet> Anyway, how is it decided what GRF is needed?
17:05:18 <hylje> i dunno, use what's available but if both are I guess windows ones are preferred
17:05:18 <Doorslammer|BRSet> Why is there a difference in palettes?
17:05:33 <hylje> the difference between windows and dos grfs lies in the palettes IIRC
17:05:38 <hylje> it's just the way it is
17:05:47 <Doorslammer|BRSet> Well I have put on the OpenGFX pack
17:05:53 <Doorslammer|BRSet> And palette is all to pot
17:09:10 <Mirrakor> Is openGFX available yet?
17:09:32 <Doorslammer|BRSet> Individual parts are
17:12:35 <Mirrakor> hm, if they're complete would openttd be completely free available for people who don't have/want to buy the real TTD?
17:13:04 <hylje> there's still some derived work in OpenTTD core
17:13:56 <Doorslammer|BRSet> Good question
17:14:16 <hylje> Noldo: i dunno but i've overheard the devs occassionally
17:14:44 <Noldo> hylje: it doesn't seem to effect them distributing it though
17:15:07 <hylje> it's still an issue of truly Free
17:15:18 <Noldo> but it might be the graphics that are needed for new features
17:15:19 <joachim> sounds like an issue of getting sued
17:15:38 <Noldo> as they are based on the original graphics in order to fit in nicely
17:17:29 <Noldo> Mirrakor: btw. which free do you mean?
17:28:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> free beer costs 5 euro
17:42:51 <Mirrakor> hylje: atm I'm talking about the beer thing - I think that's a thing with which we could win a few windows users too :)
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18:11:29 <Noldo> blathijs: do you still have the "empty" original graphic files?
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18:21:37 <ln> i will not buy this record, it is scratched.
18:22:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> ich möchte diesen teppich nicht kaufen
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18:53:07 <ln> how much is it possible to spoil with just one word?
18:54:14 * Mirrakor stellt Eddi|zuHause2 ein Paulaner Weißbier hin
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19:23:18 <Noldo> how can I get rid of original industries?
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19:25:28 <Ammler> (hmm, was that a serious question?)
19:26:02 <Ammler> if you load only town vector, you have no industry anymore.
19:26:33 <Noldo> I do want some industries, just not the original ones
19:27:00 <Noldo> so some other ecs vector maybe
19:27:23 <Ammler> I fear, ECS is theonly newindustry GRF, which removes the original.
19:28:18 <Eddi|zuHause2> there's also Pikka's industry set, but that rather extends the original industries
19:29:06 <Ammler> glx: is that reson it needs to be first?
19:31:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> a more modular design could duplicate that behaviour into each grf
19:32:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> then the grfs each could check whether they are first, and then behave accordingly
19:32:18 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause2: a ECSReset :-)
19:32:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> Ammler: that's not what i meant
19:33:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> more like an "#include <common_behaviour.nfo>"
19:38:57 <Noldo> Eddi|zuHause2: you are asuming that this would be the desired functionality
19:39:06 <joachim> grf is not very anything (modular, user friendly, customazible)
19:39:48 <joachim> but i guess there already has been a few discussions about moving to a better format?)
19:40:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> not better, just xml :p
19:40:12 <Ammler> joachim: agree to first 2, but fully disagree to 3.
19:40:49 <joachim> Ammler: well, it is customazible, but you have to read up on a lot of stuff
19:41:19 <Ammler> we need ndl or how is it called Eddi|zuHause2?
19:41:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, but i don't have that kind of time
19:42:24 <Noldo> if I only had that those empty grafic files
19:42:56 <Ammler> maybe the language (squirrel or what ever) would also be usefull for GRFs?
19:43:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> Noldo: what do you mean with empty graphic files?
19:43:54 <joachim> grf is not the future, whenever rewrites are considered, grf should go...
19:44:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> joachim: rewrites are not considered at all
19:44:25 <Noldo> joachim: you might be somewhat alone with that view
19:44:51 <Noldo> joachim: not completely but somewhat ;)
19:44:55 <Ammler> Noldo: decode trg* and replace pcx with empty pcx and encode :-P
19:44:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> even NDL is just compiled into NFO
19:46:17 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause2: as I searched for your thread in tt-forums, I found a second proposal
19:46:21 <Noldo> :/ ECS seesto use original graphics for some industries
19:46:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> Ammler: i'm sure there are at least half a dozen of those
19:47:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> but yes, there was a kind of low level extension proposed at the same time
19:47:57 <Noldo> Ammler: as it happens the industries are oil refinery and oil wells, which don't have new graphics in that either
19:48:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> Noldo: well, then you know what is left to do :p
19:48:48 <joachim> Noldo: still, grf, doesn't have to go, but a simpler format, like xml could be introduced and for a (long) while openttd could support both
19:48:55 <Noldo> well, if OpenGFX was ready I would have no problems in the first place
19:49:14 <joachim> would be alot simpler for people to code their mods or vehicles
19:49:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> joachim: xml is the worst thing that can happen
19:49:29 <Ammler> xml is just another save format
19:49:56 <joachim> simpler to the program or simpler to the modders?
19:50:08 <joachim> it seems many struggle with grf
19:50:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> xml is bad in so many ways
19:50:48 <Ammler> joachim: xml wouldn't save that
19:51:03 <Ammler> something like Eddi|zuHause2 proposed would help there much more.
19:51:11 <Noldo> joachim: it's internals that count
19:53:35 <joachim> openttd has strict coding regulations to make it readable for humans... if not, it could be coded in assembler or in hex numbers like grf
19:53:45 <joachim> doesn't really make sense
19:53:51 <Prof_Frink> openttd in asm == ttdpatch
19:54:11 <joachim> didn't mention the patch
19:54:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> it is obvious that NFO was designed by assembler coders
19:54:35 <Eddi|zuHause2> but that does not make it bad
19:54:55 <joachim> it raises the bar for getting involved
19:54:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> the problem is, it did not evolve far from there
19:55:03 <Ammler> yeah, you can still translate to it from high level language.
19:55:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> people don't code in java byte code
19:55:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> but the java compiler transforms every java program into byte code
19:55:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> which was the approach i wanted to take with NDL
19:55:48 <joachim> is there a translator from high level code to/from grf? if there is such a tool, np
19:56:51 <Ammler> joachim: and there is GRFMaker :-)
19:57:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> asm is not hard either
19:57:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> just you have a lot of jiggling with numbers
19:57:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> higher maths is "easier" on a much different level ;)
19:58:17 <glx> and modifying a vehicle is one of the easiest thing
19:58:42 <Eddi|zuHause2> for anyone who can follow the steps of a step by step tutorial
19:59:07 <joachim> for anyone who bothers and has the learning ability to do so
19:59:27 <glx> but I agree advanced action 2 are not easy to begin with
19:59:29 <joachim> noone can say graphic artists haven't given up many times?
20:00:06 <joachim> variable actions... i had a tough time tracing them even after reading all the documentation
20:00:21 <Ammler> joachim: if you show good graphics, you should be able to find a coder.
20:01:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> varaction2 are an easy concept: switch(variable) { case a..b: goto X; case c..d: goto Y; ... }
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20:02:10 <joachim> depending on earlier statements, etc., it wasn't easy for a first timer like me to understand where they were and what they did
20:02:31 <joachim> sure, it's easy when you have a manual and time...
20:03:00 <Eddi|zuHause2> the problem is that the specs were not written like that ;)
20:03:42 <glx> btw it's easier to write a grf than to add support for a grf feature
20:04:01 <glx> as the wiki is for grf coders
20:04:23 <glx> we often need to look at asm to understand how to implement a feature
20:04:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, you still have the "canonical" documentation ;)
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20:14:28 <Noldo> is it possible to make newgrf load so they are in use in the title screen?
20:15:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> having newgrfs in the title screen is not recommended
20:15:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> anyway, you can rename opntitle.dat into .sav and load it like a normal game
20:15:46 <Eddi|zuHause2> or you can rename any .sav into opntitle.dat
20:16:28 <Noldo> it's not that I want them in the thing running on the background, but my messing with the original grfs rendered the gui unusable
20:17:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> oh, like that... then you have to mess around with the grfs like the townname special case handling
20:18:16 <Noldo> the main problem is that the fonts are missing
20:19:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> you can specify fonts in the .cfg
20:26:21 <Noldo> as interesting and promising as this is I need some sleep
20:49:05 <Ammler> do you mind having old cfg format compatible with new?
20:49:43 <Ammler> because it seems, it isn't anymore.
20:49:54 <Ammler> specially the diff_opt
20:51:33 <Eddi|zuHause2> apparently it was decided to not do that :p
20:52:43 <Ammler> so if you have setting in old format, they can't be taken with?
20:56:50 <glx> new version can read old format, but it will be converted to new on save
20:58:52 <Eddi|zuHause2> so make sure to always kill any running app ;)
20:59:31 <Eddi|zuHause2> (or alternatively: make the .cfg readonly)
20:59:58 <joachim> if you don't want any apps to run, there is a better solution
21:00:10 <joachim> don't turn your computer on :)
21:03:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> app = {openttd[.exe]}
21:04:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> it should be possible to run openttd as kernel :p
21:17:11 <Ammler> [22:56] <glx> new version can read old format, but it will be converted to new on save <-- if not, worth a FS post?
21:18:32 <Ammler> but I guess, we need to update the config tool :-)
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continue to next day ⏵
