IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-06-25
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00:00:25 <Tim__> Maybe i have some time and learn that stuff...
00:01:28 <Eddi|zuHause3> hm... the Action0Industries page does not list "black hole" as a flag
00:02:47 <Tim__> Well, i'm off to bed now, goodnight everyone
00:02:47 <SmatZ> Industry production flags (0B) = 0 maybe
00:05:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, looks like that might work ;)
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00:13:41 <dih> fasten your seatbelts... the next 55 client event is on its way... WWOTTDGD comming soon... July 12th 2008
00:21:03 <dih> it's 5 times more than now :-P
00:25:21 <TiberiusTeng> can't the number be higher? :p
00:29:51 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, the higher you push the number the more likely you hit assumed limits hidden in the code ;)
00:30:36 <Eddi|zuHause3> but i suppose those would be more than likely powers of 2 (-1)
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00:46:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> sausages, of course...
01:07:47 <SmatZ> there are different cargo types
01:07:50 <Scaevolus> wiki doesn't support TeX :V
01:07:57 <Scaevolus> I'm working on the table now
01:07:57 <ccfreak2k> The variables need names.
01:08:04 <Scaevolus> but that formula is the same
01:08:19 <Scaevolus> ccfreak2k: is the alt-text enough?
01:08:47 <Scaevolus> no, I just didn't bother writing the whole thing
01:09:18 <ccfreak2k> Not to mention you missed C sub p.
01:15:38 <ben_goodger> why not the euclidean distance?
01:16:33 <Scaevolus> because it's annoying to do diagonal roads
01:17:23 <ccfreak2k> Not to mention impossible at, you know, angles other than multiples of 45.
01:17:50 <SmatZ> mmmm sqrt(dx ^ 2 + dy ^ 2) doesn't depend on angle
01:18:05 <Scaevolus> you're missing the point
01:18:33 <Scaevolus> it it were euclidean distance, you'd get screwed because you have to do 30% more distance
01:18:41 <SmatZ> and also, in OTTD, the speed of trains moving "non-diagonal" is nto the same
01:19:39 <SmatZ> I should go sleep sorry
01:19:54 <SmatZ> forget whatever I said!
01:20:15 <ccfreak2k> I don't even remember what I said.
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02:09:53 <ccfreak2k> Quite a few different types of cargo.
02:10:12 <ccfreak2k> Although a non-insignificant portion of those are for toyland..
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09:47:00 <Eddi|zuHause2> <ben_goodger> why not the euclidean distance? <- because you get non-natural results because of the sqrt
09:59:00 <Tefad> natural numbers not having a fractional component
10:01:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> if you have a natural grid, the 1- and infinity-distances always give natural results
10:05:22 * peter1138 ponders trying to fix the diagonal handling again
10:05:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> didn't celestar once do work on that?
10:06:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> in the gamebalance branch?
10:06:32 <peter1138> i don't think it's worth it
10:06:41 <peter1138> it'll break lots of newgrfs
10:07:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, he introduced a struct for fixed-point numbers and changed the calculation for prices afaik
10:13:17 <peter1138> doesn't have much to do with diagonal handling
10:16:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, you jumped between the topics ;)
10:17:39 <Eddi|zuHause2> the topic was cargo price calculation ;)
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10:45:09 <Neo_> could anybody tell me please why my papermill (ecs vector wood) produces food
10:50:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> because you changed grfs midgame?
10:50:54 <Eddi|zuHause2> after creating the map
10:51:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> like when loading a scenario
10:51:23 <Neo_> build the scenario with the vectors and than played it without changing something on the grfs
10:51:46 <Yorick> have added the vectors in the scenario?
10:51:49 <peter1138> did you change the grfs mid-scenario editor?
10:51:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> you have to add the grfs before creating the scenario
10:53:20 <Neo_> i did both, so i imported the grfs before building the scenario and i checked whether the grfs are functioning in the scenario builder
10:54:23 <Yorick> have you really added the grfs before clicking "Edit scenario"?
10:54:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> you have to add the grfs before clicking on "create scenario" on the main menu
10:55:12 <Neo_> so i have to correct myself the grfs are not imported before building the scenario, i will try to build the scenario with the grfs
10:55:23 <peter1138> it's quite annoying
10:55:37 <peter1138> it should be possible in the scenario editor at least
10:55:50 <peter1138> (and it's all my fault, i believe :D)
10:55:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> use the source ;)
10:56:25 <Neo_> i was really sure that I have imported the grfs befoer I build the scenario
10:56:27 <peter1138> hmm, maybe not, that's only the cargo payment rates
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10:56:38 <peter1138> Neo_: well it could just be that something is broken
10:57:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> imho a "reseteconomy" command is needed, and it should be run when starting a scenario as game
10:57:26 <Neo_> I have to put them in a right order, right? depending on their ID?!?
10:57:45 <Yorick> Eddi, I believe there is one in the wwottdgd forum topic
10:57:55 <peter1138> yeah, ECS has that restriction i believe
11:05:31 <Eddi|zuHause2> <Yorick> Eddi, I believe there is one in the wwottdgd forum topic <-- yes, the first wwottdgd first uncovered the problem
11:06:06 <Eddi|zuHause2> they took an existing europe scenario and added ECS grfs to that
11:06:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> and then found out that the new cargos did not get payed anything
11:06:47 <Eddi|zuHause2> that was then fixed by hacking the savegame
11:07:33 <Yorick> I had the same problem too
11:07:54 <Yorick> I used a hacked copy-paste patch to fix it then
11:08:06 <Yorick> aka lots of money and a new map
11:08:50 <Ammler> Yorick: I made a console command for that
11:09:20 <peter1138> the reason for that is because of the (flawed) way inflation is done
11:09:47 <Yorick> and add a warning about it's buggyness
11:10:47 <Yorick> we got a warning on the station spread too
11:10:48 <peter1138> inflation is not buggy, just odd
11:11:04 <Yorick> yes, it inflates into negativeness?
11:11:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> that's a completely different issue
11:12:01 <Yorick> Eddi: it doesn't happen without inflation
11:12:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> Yorick: that's simply an overflow issue
11:12:45 <Yorick> it shouldn't inflate into overflows
11:13:06 <Eddi|zuHause2> but that has nothing to do with adding newgrfs
11:13:25 <Ammler> same can happen with habitants
11:13:25 <Yorick> peter called it flawed
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11:15:00 <Yorick> btw, turning off inflation doesn't reset the cost
11:16:16 <Ammler> but together with the economyreset, it should...
11:16:46 <Yorick> yes, but reseteconomy isn't multiplayer safe
11:17:14 <Ammler> you need that only once and it isn't in trunk anyway :-)
11:18:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> that just needs sending a command to all client
11:18:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> resetengines must do that, too
11:19:19 <Ammler> well, that patch was only meant for fixing saves.
11:20:50 <Ammler> you can't add GRFs in MP anyway. so a MP safe reset isn't needed, imo.
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11:22:18 <Yorick> if so, you should disable it in MP
11:22:25 <Yorick> I don't think it is now
11:23:22 <Ammler> it is a console command
11:23:43 <Ammler> can you run those without rcon?
11:24:32 <Yorick> I think you should add the NON_MP hook
11:25:31 <Ammler> well, that should be done, if there are interests for trunk.
11:25:53 <Yorick> IConsoleCmdHookAdd ("reseteconomy", ICONSOLE_HOOK_ACCESS, ConHookNoNetwork);
11:26:12 <Yorick> no, because someone could execute it on the server, and make all the clients desync
11:26:43 <Yorick> or someone that has sh access
11:27:01 <Yorick> like...ooh, new command, what does it do?
11:27:10 <Yorick> and then 40 desync messages
11:27:19 <Ammler> you are right, if it is in trunk
11:27:35 <Eddi|zuHause2> it should really be in trunk
11:27:35 <Ammler> else you apply the patch and shouldn't ask that :P
11:29:12 <Yorick> fs#2038 is there for a month now, and most likely urgent since june
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11:31:26 <Yorick> my neutral airports patch is quite finished now
11:31:39 <Yorick> except for the autoreplace bug, and that one happens in clean trunk too
11:31:53 <Yorick> and tracksharing fixes it as long as shared airport hangars are on
11:32:54 <Ammler> Yorick: it should be possible to configure depots for foreign vehicels only can service there.
11:33:12 <Yorick> by disabling the shared airports
11:33:28 <Yorick> that's planetmakers job
11:34:07 <Ammler> well, we will set breakdowns off and disable sharing depots.
11:34:30 <Yorick> that'd uncover the autoreplace bug if it isn't fixed by then
11:35:13 <Yorick> because planes don't care about shared hangars, they just service there, I think
11:35:33 <Ammler> yeah, but we set that off
11:35:44 <Ammler> no service needed in wwottdgd
11:36:24 <Yorick> I haven't found an option to stop planes from servicin
11:36:39 <Yorick> just commenting out the line would do
11:37:26 <Yorick> Ammler, why have you made the extern void ResetEconomy a global in console_cmds.cpp?
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13:09:46 <Eddi|zuHause2> that's gonna happen one way or the other ;)
13:10:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> i'm just glad i am far away from berlin :p
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13:14:43 <fjb> Funny picture. Hopefully the people stay calm.
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13:20:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> how exactly is that relevant to the discussion?
13:27:48 <ln> an off-topic youtube url?!
13:33:08 <Belugas> Gekz, warning: off topic youtubes are not allowed
13:33:27 <Gekz> and theres no link to rules in the topic
13:33:45 <ln> Gekz: the last item on the topic.
13:34:01 <Gekz> and it says nothing about youtube.
13:34:03 <Belugas> reason : we do not care about what you like, outside of the discussion. THis allows to not be floaded by meaningless posts
13:34:52 <Belugas> well.. now, I told you. It's as good as a topic announcement
13:35:41 <ln> Gekz: well, if you are not an idiot, you certainly have made nice attempts at looking like one in the past.
13:37:26 <Belugas> ln, please, do not escaladate. He has been warned
13:45:08 <Belugas> and indeed "No idiots" does not mean no YouTube. But since topics are already VER long, i guess "verbal" warning is good enough
13:45:11 <peter1138> the last rule is ignored a lot
13:45:28 <peter1138> i mean, i'm still here
13:46:35 <peter1138> and that is hilarious
13:47:36 <eekee> peter1138: off topic :D
13:47:53 <fjb> And who needs that anyway?
13:49:46 <eekee> you need a web page for the rules, really
13:50:21 <Belugas> not an useless one, TiberiusTeng. At least, you are working. not simply begging or just be a reckless baby feeded one
13:50:21 <Yorick> banning self via rcon crashes the openttd server :)
13:50:46 <Belugas> now, that is idiotistic
13:52:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> <peter1138> i mean, i'm still here <- afair you put that there :p
13:57:21 <fjb> Hm, the road vehicles only ai in trunk isn't that idiotic...
13:59:59 <dih> Belugas: it is, but still should not happen
14:00:27 <Yorick> is there any way I can get the name of the patch by the index offset in the SettingDesc array of the Patches struct?
14:01:18 <glx> probably (as there's a console function to display them)
14:03:35 <Yorick> thanks glx (_patch_settings[index]->desc.name)
14:07:09 * Belugas restart certification. Won't be around much
14:14:54 <dih> that only does it for the kick command
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14:41:49 <Ammler> glx, the bug occurs not only
14:42:11 <Ammler> in running games, also at scenario editor ;-)
14:46:15 <glx> Ammler: anyway you should chose the grfs before starting to create the scenario
14:46:45 <dih> LA: i see working coming towards you :-D
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14:47:38 <LA> dih: I'll leave very soon for a few days. Some grf adding isn't that hard
14:48:47 <LA> although I think I'll be back in a week or so
14:49:12 <Yorick> patch editing from clients works!
14:49:48 <Yorick> (after commenting out several checks I still have to change)
14:52:27 <Yorick> I channeled the patch settings into rcon :)
14:52:30 <Belugas> that's such a good way to go.. remove all safety checks, and let's run the program!
14:52:54 <Yorick> those safety checks stopped me from doing what I wanted
14:53:00 <dih> Belugas: it uses the rcon_passwd value set on the client
14:53:24 <dih> Yorick: perhaps patch settings would be a wee bit over the top
14:54:00 <dih> and it remains local if rcon passwd is not set?
14:54:17 <Yorick> no, they get disabled as usual if rcon_pw isn't set
14:54:29 <Yorick> and do not change if it's incorrect
14:56:31 <Yorick> just my boolean operator knowledge is starting to faint
14:57:11 <Yorick> if (!(sd->save.conv & SLF_NETWORK_NO) && _networking && !_network_server) return;
14:57:57 <Yorick> now, for if it isn't a network server, I need it to check if the rcon_pw[0] == '\0'
14:58:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> make a second if()
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15:00:03 <Yorick> but would it be a short way?
15:00:24 <planetmaker> yorick, make it a decent patch :) Will be a great patch for all server admins.
15:00:55 * planetmaker tries to avoid the t-word ;)
15:02:05 <Yorick> tongue? talk? type? time? the? ping?
15:02:19 <planetmaker> it ends with runk ;)
15:03:19 * planetmaker now quits sabotaging Yorick's work incentives :)
15:07:45 <Yorick> ah, the final step and the patch settings work :)
15:09:32 <Yorick> now, the move-client gui
15:09:37 <Yorick> most likely the hardest one
15:09:58 <Yorick> I'd use the client list to select a client
15:10:14 <Yorick> then open up a company list to select the company to move the player to
15:10:50 <Yorick> any ideas on that, planetmaker?
15:11:50 <planetmaker> There was an idea to add the 9 company buttons (spectator+companies) next to the clients. The active one is pressed.
15:12:02 <planetmaker> then you could change companies in a jiffy.
15:12:27 <planetmaker> /s/pressed/activated
15:13:30 <Yorick> the active one is activated?
15:13:41 <Yorick> and what if there are no 9 companies?
15:13:57 <Yorick> and the height of the client list is dynamically resized
15:14:06 <planetmaker> well, if I'm in company 1, the button of company 1 is the pressed / active one, the others are raised.
15:14:57 <Yorick> and wouldn't this be dihs job?
15:15:32 <Ammler> <yorick> [13:37:26] Ammler, why have you made the extern void ResetEconomy a global in console_cmds.cpp? <-- how would you do that? (the extern isn't needed, I guess, dunno :-)
15:15:58 <Yorick> Ammler, how much programming knowledge do you have?
15:16:11 <Yorick> compare my submitted patch to yours
15:16:29 <Yorick> you can see the extern void StartupEconomy moves
15:16:38 <Yorick> and yes, I ment StartupEconomy
15:17:31 <Ammler> you still use extern, why?
15:17:43 <dih> yorick: move patch is mine, rcon gui is yours
15:18:08 <Yorick> Ammler, because it IS extern
15:18:57 <Yorick> I could also do a header file, but that'd make you all of the economy functions into console_cmds.cpp
15:19:57 <Ammler> I like to have it very small, not proper
15:20:21 <Ammler> so you can use it very long on clientside.
15:20:35 <Yorick> then extern is the way
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15:20:59 <Ammler> also your hook is too much already :-)
15:21:32 <Ammler> it would only make sence, if devs would be interested to include it in trunk...
15:21:59 <Yorick> and they aren't, because they think they can get away with that big red warning no one actually reads
15:22:22 <Yorick> and they can direct every 'bug'/'complaint' about it into that big red warning
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15:22:50 <Yorick> I don't think they're actually interested in the grfs-ingame feature
15:23:26 <Ammler> commands, which you don't need in MP aren't important to have in trunk in ugly way.
15:24:13 <Ammler> omg half past 5 and I am still not at home.
15:27:34 <planetmaker> there're worst things, Ammler :)
15:28:49 <planetmaker> replace wurst by käse and that sounds like a plan for the next minutes :)
15:29:11 <Ammler> I would like to have too :-)
15:29:49 <Yorick> nah, I don't like cheese
15:30:45 <Yorick> I don't like it cold, that is
15:32:17 <Yorick> problem with integrating the move patch is that it's no longer a seperate patch
15:33:11 <planetmaker> proposal: make it two patches:
15:33:21 <planetmaker> one rcon gui w/o move patch
15:33:36 <planetmaker> another where you only add the gui to the move patch (e.g. move patch xxl :) )
15:36:02 <Yorick> I'm not really good with totaly seperate guis
15:36:36 <Yorick> someone should make a tutorial for the new windowing system
15:36:55 <Belugas> [11:17] <Ammler> I like to have it very small, not proper <--- Booo... why is it not in trunk?? booooo
15:37:35 <Yorick> Belugas: I made a proper version there
15:39:12 <Belugas> it's not the job, it's the attitude...
15:39:32 <Yorick> that's Ammlers attitude to it
15:39:43 <Yorick> I'd still like to see it in trunk
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15:40:55 <Belugas> did not said it was yours ;)
15:41:08 <Belugas> and i don't even know what patch that is
15:41:19 <Yorick> who's the windowing expert here?
15:44:33 <Belugas> i think there is none as per say
15:44:51 <Belugas> we all have some good notions on it.
15:45:15 <Yorick> I'll copy one of those graph keys windows
15:46:17 <Yorick> dih: how's moving to ai companies actually handles?
15:46:24 <Yorick> as you can't reset them and such
15:47:19 <Yorick> you have ai companies in multiplayer
15:47:20 <dih> wwottdgd has no ai controlled companies
15:47:28 <Yorick> no, but they COULD be there
15:47:34 <Yorick> and if you're heading for trunk...
15:48:01 <dih> the move clients patch has not seen me continue decent work on it for a while
15:48:10 <dih> and you misunderstand something
15:48:38 <dih> i write a patch, and if it's liked by the devs, they decide it will head for trunk
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15:50:05 <dih> reminds me (<- Bjarni line)
15:50:21 <dih> what is green and turns red by the push of a button
15:50:55 <dih> what is green and remains green by the push of a button
15:51:05 <Yorick> green liquid in a blender?
15:51:07 <dih> frog in a blender running for its life
15:54:11 <Belugas> [11:47] <dih> what is green and turns red by the push of a button <-- patch setting
15:54:33 <Belugas> [11:48] <dih> what is green and remains green by the push of a button <-- Generate button
15:54:54 <Yorick> or disabled patch setting?
15:55:17 <peter1138> Belugas, your clock is 5 hours out ;)
15:55:54 <blathijs> 17:54:11 <@Belugas> [11:47] <dih> what is green and turns red by the push of a button <-- A frog in a blender?
15:56:33 <peter1138> clearly blathijs has dih on ignore
15:56:43 <peter1138> which i wholeheartedly agree with
15:57:22 <blathijs> Oh wait, I'm making a joke that's been made already :-)
15:58:01 <blathijs> I actually thought you guys were having some serious discussions about buttons in the openttd interface :-D
15:58:49 <frosch123> no they make fun of frogs :(
15:59:32 <Belugas> i love frogs, even more their legs
15:59:37 <blathijs> Belugas: That's exactly what he said, "they" :-)
16:00:02 <peter1138> frogs will stay in my pond
16:00:57 <Belugas> and garlic in my garden :D
16:01:05 <dih> 17:56 <@peter1138> which i wholeheartedly agree with <-- :'(
16:01:06 <Belugas> - since i do not have a pond :S -
16:03:31 <Yorick> now to get started with dinner
16:09:15 <Digitalfox_> Bad Belugas eating frogs =0
16:09:27 <fjb> Is it possible to kind of emulate konditinal loading with the conditinal order jump? I tried a jump back to the previous loading oder as long as the train is not 35% loaded. But that does not work. The trains leaves the station after the loading order.
16:10:25 <Digitalfox_> Seriously I can't even imagine myself touching a dead frog.. So eating it its totally out of the question..
16:10:54 <fjb> Touching a dead cow also isn't that much fun. But they taste great.
16:11:30 <Belugas> not moentionning chicken and so one...
16:12:04 <Digitalfox_> But you eat frogs legs Belugas?
16:12:22 <Belugas> it tastes like chicken a bit
16:13:25 <Belugas> it's all in your head
16:13:42 <Digitalfox_> Well with all respect I feel it disgusting.. I know it's just an animal like any other and that I'm a hypocrite because I also eat dead animals, but frogs is out of the question..
16:14:05 <Belugas> toobad for you, good for me. Give me your plate!
16:14:22 <Digitalfox_> Belugas true, I know this happens to me because I have received that kind of social education..
16:14:35 <Digitalfox_> You are not wrong for eating it..
16:15:05 <Digitalfox_> But here we don't eat dogs, cat's, frogs, horses, etc..
16:15:17 <Digitalfox_> It's the culture of my country
16:15:45 <Digitalfox_> Don't take someone we know to china belugas.. =0
16:16:57 <Digitalfox_> Or she will be served in a plate :(
16:18:07 <Belugas> and i do understand your point, Digitalfox_
16:19:50 <fjb> Can we get back to the topic please? Is there a wai to have a train wait till a certain percantage is loaded?
16:20:09 <Belugas> i don't think it's possible with trunk, no
16:20:23 <Belugas> if it is , i'm not up to date with developpement
16:20:50 <Belugas> although i clearly remember a patch about that
16:21:00 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes. it was in miniin
16:23:10 <fjb> Hm, it would be related to the conditional oders. An stay at the station oder coulb be useful. You could build a loop where a train stay some ticks (days) at the station and the rechecks if new load appeared.
16:24:48 <Belugas> hints : the more you add features to this poor orders system, the more it will become totally out of reach of regular users
16:25:43 <fjb> Maybe the interface could be made a bit more intuitive. But the new conditional oders are great. And you don't have to use them.
16:28:36 <Belugas> could you come up with some drawings of a better one?
16:28:54 <Belugas> not really the prissi style, please...
16:30:07 <fjb> What is the prissi style? Do you have an example?
16:30:17 <Belugas> look in the forums :)
16:30:27 <planetmaker> fjb: you can tune the loading time at a station such that only a certain percentage of your capacity can be filled due to time constraints.
16:30:27 <Rubidium> all the buttons at the top
16:30:34 <Rubidium> all buttons visible at the same time
16:30:52 <Rubidium> i.e. the conditional order buttons should be visible at all time, just greyed out when not useable
16:31:01 <fjb> Ah, ok, I know what you mean.
16:32:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> <planetmaker> fjb: you can tune the loading time at a station such that only a certain percentage of your capacity can be filled due to time constraints. <- no, timetable only can make the train wait longer, not shorter
16:32:39 <Belugas> prissi has some noble intentions. but his approach is not really realistic
16:33:08 <Belugas> altough, i do like his Hints-On patch
16:33:22 <Belugas> just that the way is set is not the best one, i believe
16:33:40 <Belugas> he fails at making it "user-friendly"
16:33:49 <fjb> I will have a look at his patches how to not do it.
16:34:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> how about by default the "advanced" orders are hidden? (and enabled by a button in the window/patch option)
16:34:44 <Belugas> he added a click count in patches. so, the oly way to turn it off is to go in patches and make it at zero (or someting)
16:34:59 <Belugas> i don't think a variable umber shold be used
16:35:21 <Belugas> and it shold be toggled on/off right frim the ? button in main/scenario toolbar
16:35:35 <Belugas> a-la-transparencis and other checkmarks
16:35:42 <Eddi|zuHause2> and we should _REALLY_ quit calling it "patch option"
16:35:46 <Belugas> it would be more adequate
16:35:53 <Belugas> indeed we do, Eddi|zuHause2
16:36:03 <Belugas> i totally agree with you
16:36:29 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause2: really? Hm.... it was my impression that you could force an early leaving of the station
16:36:36 <glx> internally there are no patches
16:36:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> nobody cares about internally ;)
16:37:42 <glx> and in french I use "Configuration avancée"
16:37:57 <planetmaker> I can compliment on the internal rework of the settings. Even I can now try to understand it :)
16:38:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, but nobody cares about french either ;)
16:39:28 <planetmaker> mybe some africans, too
16:40:50 <Belugas> wanna get kicked, Eddi|zuHause2?
16:40:53 <fjb> Oh, the timetable bottons are unreadable with the german translation. The labels are way too big for the buttons.
16:41:16 <Belugas> i kow, let's commit cpp_gui!
16:41:21 <Belugas> that will take care of that!!
16:41:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, it's a fact that all translations are based on english, not on french
16:41:38 <fjb> Belugas: Are you Bjarni in diguise? :)
16:41:52 <Belugas> oh no... far from that...
16:42:00 <Belugas> we only have the B in commun :P
16:42:25 <Belugas> [12:38] <fjb> Oh, the timetable bottons are unreadable with the german translation. <--- let's get rid of german, it is breaking the program!
16:42:28 <fjb> Ok, just the kicking idea got me that idea.
16:43:01 <fjb> Lets use only german in the game. It's a more precise language.
16:43:49 <fjb> But I vote for an c++ gui.
16:43:55 <Belugas> so precise they need a ten foot long name for something that can be said way shorter both in french and english!
16:44:08 <Belugas> [12:41] <fjb> But I vote for an c++ gui. <-- that one was a joke...
16:44:20 <Belugas> c++ gui would not magically solve all the problems...
16:44:28 <frosch123> [18:43] <fjb> Lets use only german in the game. It's a more precise language. <- if only the translators would be that precise...
16:44:30 <fjb> But is the english or french name even that precise then?
16:44:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> Belugas: but the new map array will :p
16:45:30 <fjb> At leasts the labels should not escape their bounding boxes.
16:46:09 <glx> they don't have bounding boxes
16:46:27 <fjb> They may be the couse of the trouble...
16:47:04 <Belugas> the casue of the problem is the fact that the windows do not know how big the lables are gong to be, and they do not resize accordingly
16:47:12 <fjb> The size of the button should be the bounding box.
16:47:32 <Belugas> it would not solve the problem at all, since it's not related
16:47:56 <Belugas> bounding boxes are related to sprites
16:48:09 <Belugas> you do not use sprotes for buttones/labels
16:48:30 <fjb> The java swing interface is nice in that way, easy to build a gui with. As much as I dislaike java in some respecs, that system is great.
16:49:29 <fjb> Belugas: I din not mean that special bounding boxes for sprites. I meant a kind of box around labels that prvent them from overflow the buttons.
16:50:16 <Belugas> you just need to make a proper resizing/ drawing
16:50:39 <Belugas> it all goes down to knowing in advanced the size of the tstring going to be written
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16:50:48 <Belugas> in an automatic way as much as possible
16:50:58 <Belugas> everything else wold be a dirty hack, i wold say
16:51:48 <fjb> Yes. But what do you doo if a translation gets very long, so the label would be too big to fit on the screen? There has to be a maximum size somewhere.
16:52:51 <Belugas> byut you do not need a bounding box for that
16:54:33 <Belugas> it can simply be a new param of the widgets
16:54:48 <glx> we just need real widgets
16:55:10 <fjb> But what the autosizing with limit be useful to implement without using C++?
16:56:19 <fjb> Real widgets could make many things easier. I guess many patches could be implemented in a cleaner way.
16:58:21 <Belugas> i do not really believe that one...
16:59:54 <fjb> Hm, how many ticks are a day?
17:00:50 <Belugas> but i tend to trust peter1138 more than myself
17:01:43 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13627 /branches/noai/src/ (ai/api/ai_cargo.hpp newgrf_cargo.h): [NoAI] -Fix: typo in word 'nuclear' (Finaldeath)
17:01:49 <peter1138> but is it true that it's meant to be exactly 2 seconds...
17:03:20 <fjb> Because I have to calculate somethnig and I never do remember how many ticks a day are.
17:07:57 <Rubidium> fjb: and because it should be exactly 2 seconds a day it's 2.22 seconds a day ;)
17:09:03 <fjb> Ah, ok, so 2 seconds last 2.22 seconds?
17:11:36 <Rubidium> on some computers it is
17:13:02 <fjb> Not leap seconds, stretch seconds...
17:25:16 <fjb> Why does a train always go to the depot when the order is "service at nearest depot"? Or is that another bug in YAPP? Usully "sevice at..." sends a train only to a depot when it needs servicing, even with yapp.
17:26:30 <ben_goodger> in my experience it's always been an explicit order. the train would usually visit the depot by itself
17:27:08 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
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17:30:30 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: skidd13 * r13628 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs):
17:30:30 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Feature: enable building of aqueducts in the scenario editor
17:30:30 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Codechange: related to this split the waterway based buttons from the landscape generation window
17:31:05 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r13629 /trunk/src/newgrf_house.cpp: -Fix [FS#2108](r13603): diameter != radius
17:38:32 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: skidd13 * r13630 /trunk/src/lang/ (37 files in 2 dirs): -Update: apply english.txt changes from r13628 to other languages
17:41:32 <fjb> Hm, no place to plant more trees...
17:42:32 <Belugas> remove than replant :)
17:43:44 <yorick> thanks skidd13 for committing my idea
17:43:51 <SpComb> what if you blow up all the trees, and then plant them again? Does the local authority still hate you after that?
17:44:11 <yorick> without my name on it ;(
17:44:20 <SpComb> there should be an option to make it look as if some other player/company killed all the trees
17:44:55 <yorick> there should be an option to disable local authority as a whole
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17:45:03 <SpComb> isn't there one already?
17:45:07 <Belugas> yorick : "Additional comments about closing: Implemented in r13628
17:45:07 <Belugas> @Yorick: Sorry forgot to mention you in the commit message"
17:45:12 <SpComb> attitude towards landscaping
17:45:17 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: smatz * r13631 /trunk/src/tar_type.h: -Fix (r13618): forgot #define avoiding multiple inclusions
17:46:13 <yorick> oh, I've got some mail
17:47:39 <Belugas> youhave to excuse skiddl13, he has not commited much work outside his own
17:48:09 <Belugas> and local authority is here to stay, if it is only from me
17:51:15 <yorick> or make magic bulldozer allow me to build stations
17:51:23 <yorick> there are cheats for it
17:51:46 <Belugas> magic buldozer allowning to BUILD stations???
17:51:51 <yorick> and is build while pause actually a cheat in a game without cheats
17:52:21 <yorick> these ais play unfair enough
17:52:37 <ccfreak2k> Magic station tool. :)
17:54:53 *** planetmaker is now known as faked_SmatZ
17:55:07 *** faked_SmatZ is now known as planetmaker
17:56:19 <Eddi|zuHause2> i thought there was already a "disable local authority" cheat
17:56:40 <Eddi|zuHause2> must have dreamt this :p
17:56:41 <yorick> yes, somewhere amoung the patches in the OpenTTD Development forum
17:56:49 <fjb> Hm, isn't the game easy enough?
17:56:56 <Wolf01> use shift, right click on the widget and select "run as..." from the dropdown menu
17:57:00 <SpComb> one oops-accidentially-dragged-the-dynamite-tool-into-a-news-viewport-and-blew-up-half-the-map?
17:57:51 <yorick> no news messages while mouse held!
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18:05:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> that never happened to me
18:11:56 <Bjarni> planetmaker: I call you a fake
18:12:29 <planetmaker> hu? :) bugger. Nick changes in all channels :)
18:12:54 <Bjarni> I don't believe that you make planets
18:13:17 <planetmaker> You may not believe that.
18:13:23 <Prof_Frink> Bjarni: No, he really *is* Slartibartfast.
18:13:30 <planetmaker> But from a certain point it IS true :)
18:13:30 <Bjarni> if you could then the number of planets in our solar system would increase and it's decreasing
18:13:54 <[com]buster> by redefinition that is :p
18:14:01 <Bjarni> we had 9 planets when I was born and now we have 8
18:14:03 <yorick> like pluto, all vanished!
18:14:05 <planetmaker> Bjarni: so... would it? There's more to the universe than just this tiny system :)
18:14:19 <Bjarni> we are also losing moons
18:14:19 <Prof_Frink> Bjarni: Yes. Planets keep disappearing.
18:14:37 <yorick> some are hit by a meteorite
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18:14:39 <Prof_Frink> Only The Doctor can possibly save us.
18:14:44 <yorick> some are hit by Humans
18:14:54 <yorick> and others are hit by Bjarni
18:15:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> i'd have said The Doctor is likely the cause of most of these disappearings :p
18:15:33 <Prof_Frink> We shall find out soon enough
18:15:55 <Bjarni> I'm not talking about science fiction
18:16:05 <Bjarni> Phobos really is on a route to it's own doom
18:16:11 <Prof_Frink> Doctor Who is a documentary.
18:16:32 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, it said that in my TV schedule
18:16:41 <Prof_Frink> Bjarni: Well yes. Doom is set on... phobos or deimos. I forget which.
18:16:42 <planetmaker> [20:14] <Bjarni> we are also losing moons <-- of that effect I'm not aware... on the contrary I'd say.
18:17:08 <Bjarni> Prof_Frink: I just said it's Phobos :P
18:17:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> some would be glad to get rid of a phobia :p
18:17:59 <yorick> why does my onclick widget tend to always be 3?
18:18:56 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause2: enjoy the wait
18:19:08 <Bjarni> it will happen in around 11 million years
18:19:29 <yorick> oh, by the fact I did if(widget=3)
18:19:35 <Bjarni> and then Mars will be the only planet in the solar system with a ring and solid surface
18:20:21 <Prof_Frink> Bjarni: Sooner if UAC start dicking about with teleporters.
18:20:34 <Belugas> not using enumification, yorick?
18:21:14 <Bjarni> <yorick> oh, by the fact I did if(widget=3) <-- I did that once and quite magically the code worked anyway o_O
18:21:15 <yorick> Belugas: no, I'm not enumifying a player list
18:21:49 <Bjarni> I mean I really did test all possible actions available from the GUI and every single one worked
18:21:49 <Belugas> why do you care for widget 3 then?
18:22:02 <yorick> because that's the Spectator one
18:22:16 <Belugas> so you need at least a name for that one,
18:22:23 <Bjarni> why not make an enum declaring that as the Spectator?
18:22:25 <Belugas> is it will make the code easier to read
18:22:30 <Bjarni> since 3 tells us very little
18:22:47 <Bjarni> Belugas: glad to see that we agree :)
18:23:05 <Belugas> so we have more than the B in commun ;)
18:23:59 <peter1138> i bet your last.fm 'rating' isn't super :D
18:24:38 <Wolf01> *now* I'm starting to convert hotkeys to variables
18:25:03 <Belugas> bad news, it's STILL super :S
18:25:25 <peter1138> on to ten rapid now
18:27:08 <Wolf01> OR maybe I should look at how language strings are handled and do "teh same thing!©"
18:30:37 <ccfreak2k> Someone beep me when Tiberius comes back around.
18:31:58 <Bjarni> maybe I should just script a beep every time somebody joins the channel. Eventually I will get it right
18:32:22 <Bjarni> besides he didn't say that we were not to beep before he arrives
18:35:12 <yorick> what, DorpsGek doesn't meep?
18:36:03 <Prof_Frink> mip mip mip mip mip meeep!
18:36:54 <yorick> but we knew that already
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18:39:53 *** yorick was kicked by DorpsGek (je bent zelf gek)
18:42:19 <yorick> DorpsGek: it's in your name
18:42:46 <yorick> but you promised me not to kick on #openttd :)
18:44:01 <Prof_Frink> What what, did someone say !password?
18:44:17 <DorpsGek> Bjarni: pv2b was last seen in #openttd 16 weeks, 6 days, 22 hours, 31 minutes, and 15 seconds ago: <pv2b> i think thats the name
18:44:22 *** Prof_Frink was kicked by DorpsGek (Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.)
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18:44:23 <yorick> TrueBrain or Rubidium is controlling DorpsGek again to kick me
18:45:05 <Bjarni> he haven't been around for a while
18:45:37 <DorpsGek> Madassasin: I have not seen Patchman.
18:45:44 <Madassasin> that explains it :))
18:45:50 <Prof_Frink> That is the question.
18:46:30 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r13632 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: Use 'void *' for user-data of CircularTileSearch().
18:47:57 <yorick> IsValidPlayer doesn't actually check if the player exists, does it?
18:48:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> i'm getting a timeout, Bjarni
18:49:14 <Bjarni> it's a link to a page in Swedish with a filmchip in Dutch with Swedish subtitles
18:49:20 <Bjarni> I'm not sure you would benefit from it
18:49:47 <Eddi|zuHause2> dutch subtitles would have been easier ;)
18:50:02 <Bjarni> sometimes they speak Swedish with Dutch subtitles
18:50:26 <Bjarni> basically Belgium wants to sue Sweden for listening to the internet
18:50:53 <Madassasin> listening to the internet?
18:50:53 <Bjarni> Madassasin: yeah that's what I thought
18:51:22 <Bjarni> basically they passed a law that allows the government to listen to emails and stuff while they are being transmitted over the internet
18:51:45 <ccfreak2k> I didn't know one could "listen" to e-mails.
18:52:00 <Madassasin> but it's only applicable in Sweden so what the heck does Belgium have to say?
18:52:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, i heard about the law
18:52:29 <Bjarni> so if you send a mail from England to Finland and it passes though Sweden there is a possibility that a computer scanned this mail for illegal content like planning terror
18:52:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> it was about intercepting any communication going into or out of sweden
18:52:38 <yorick> it's FLEMISH, NOT DUTCH!
18:52:43 <ln> belgium is a former colony of sweden
18:52:57 <Madassasin> except that mail is delivered directly from source to destination in 99% of the cases
18:53:03 <Madassasin> eg from client to server
18:53:27 <yorick> neither can I speak it, but I do mostly know what it means, and I know it sounds wierd
18:53:29 <Madassasin> oh, I didn't read properly
18:53:32 <Bjarni> I like to know what Belgium actually plan to do
18:53:53 <Madassasin> I'm wondering why the heck Belgium cares
18:54:16 <Bjarni> I mean.... it's not like there is an international law declaring that Sweden isn't allowed to read data in Sweden
18:54:35 <Madassasin> so this resumes back to ?!
18:54:35 <yorick> Bjarni: they read everything from and to sweden
18:54:40 <Eddi|zuHause2> Madassasin: that does not take into account IP-routing
18:55:16 <Madassasin> Eddi|zuHause2, and it doesn't take account something else, which I forgot cause I didn't really read that Bjarni said
18:56:12 <Madassasin> so, who's playing in wwottdgd?
18:56:12 <Bjarni> I'm pretty sure that Sweden couldn't care less for some Belgian guy sending a hot mail to a Belgian woman
18:58:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: that sounds awfully like "who does nothing wrong has nothing to fear"
19:01:24 <Madassasin> playing in wwottdgd?
19:02:25 <Prof_Frink> Bjarni: If you send it *from* England, it's practically guaranteed to be scanned for terr'ists
19:02:51 <yorick> G:/BoTTD/BoTTD/msys/home/ottdsrc/rcongui/src/network/network_gui.cpp:2066: error: invalid conversion from `int' to `PlayerID'
19:03:44 * Prof_Frink bowls at Eddi|zuHause2
19:03:47 <yorick> PlayerId = widget - MPW_FIRST_COMPANY + 1;
19:04:09 <yorick> then what does it need?
19:04:49 <Eddi|zuHause2> (PlayerID)(your formula)
19:05:14 <Prof_Frink> Actually, we only need 3, everyone else can be CGI'd in.
19:06:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> like the army at helms deep?
19:06:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> PS: the 'not dutch' is definitely easier to understand than the swedish
19:09:07 <yorick> no, you called it something with dutch
19:09:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> i assume the difference between dutch and 'not dutch' is less than the difference between german and swiss-german
19:09:59 <yorick> what's the difference between german and swiss-german
19:10:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> you practically do not understand it at all...
19:10:39 <Prof_Frink> yorick: swiss-german's slightly more neutral.
19:11:09 <Prof_Frink> swiss-german. Very efficiently doing nothing.
19:12:35 <yorick> I like latin, just precise enough
19:13:06 <Prof_Frink> Latin's a dead language. Dead as dead can be. It killed off the Romans, then it killed me.
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19:13:44 <yorick> it killed off the greek
19:14:34 <yorick> PId = (PlayerID)widget - (PlayerID)4; <-- it still doesn't like me
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19:14:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> it did not... the eastern half of the roman empire spoke greek
19:14:49 <Eddi|zuHause2> and that one lived 1000 years longer
19:15:29 <yorick> it killed off the original greek
19:15:32 <Eddi|zuHause2> yorick: no, i said (PlayerID)(formula)
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19:15:55 <Madassasin> yorick, PId = (PlayerID) (widget - 4); /* this maybe? */
19:16:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> yorick: again no, the "old greek" language died when the turks invaded
19:16:30 <yorick> not the original greeks in italia
19:16:39 <yorick> those were killed by the romans
19:17:04 <Eddi|zuHause2> you are weird. i don't discuss with you any further
19:20:03 <yorick> Eddi: why do you have 4 names?
19:24:19 <Eddi|zuHause2> why wouldn't i?
19:24:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> 4 is really rare
19:24:57 <yorick> because I only have 3?
19:25:11 <yorick> one of those my AFK name
19:25:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> due to a bug in my client it cycles between 2 and 3 on disconnects, not between 1 and 2
19:25:39 <Prof_Frink> And the third is "Profit!"
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19:33:24 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r13633 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Fix: restoring 'service at depot X' orders from the order backup failed.
19:33:52 <yorick> could you update the move patch, so I could test my shiny gui, please?
19:37:42 <yorick> planetmaker, any other suggestions?
19:38:02 *** Osai is now known as Osai`off
19:40:17 <Ammler> yorick: that patch is well updated from planetmaker, afaik.
19:40:47 <yorick> the r13305 version doesn't compile anymore
19:40:51 <Ammler> (you might need to check wwottdgd thread)
19:42:32 <Ammler> hmm, then he updates the whole patch
19:42:45 <Ammler> you need to ask him then, :-)
19:43:00 <yorick> "The admin GUI would be a really nice addon, I think, it should be technically possible like you make your own (not dedicated) server... (If you use rcon <pw> GUI, all patch settings are changeable like you are the server self.)"<-- I've done that :) any other suggestions from you?
19:43:08 <Ammler> but he isn't available while the football is on TV
19:43:25 <fjb> Ah, the order backup bug got fixed. Great. I thought it was my fault when that happened to me last night.
19:44:28 <yorick> we have 4 other bugs with that backup :)
19:45:41 *** Osai`off is now known as Osai
19:46:00 <fjb> Oh, don't know witch bug got me.
19:46:13 <Prof_Frink> He's a witch! Burn him!
19:46:45 <yorick> the service at depot X one
19:50:06 <yorick> Ammler: do you have any suggestions?
19:50:37 <yorick> a reset button on the company window?
19:51:01 <yorick> suggestions for the rcon gui
19:51:12 <yorick> I got kick, ban, move, change patch, pause
19:51:43 <Ammler> yorick: in "not dedicated" servers, you have already the GUI
19:51:58 <yorick> and that gui consists of that options
19:52:33 <Ammler> maybe, it is possible to give someone the server status?
19:52:44 <Ammler> like he has on non dedicated?
19:52:49 <yorick> and what should he be able to change then?
19:53:13 <Ammler> same as on non dedicated servers
19:53:24 <yorick> do you have a list of things?
19:53:25 <Prof_Frink> yorick: Also, make "sudo" an alias for "rcon"
19:54:07 <Ammler> oh, and yorick, remove the barrier for moving server
19:54:38 <yorick> should ask planetmaker or dih
19:54:49 <yorick> but I'd need an updated move patch first
19:55:19 <Ammler> then it would be possible to set the company password with autopilot
19:55:45 <yorick> company password of what?
19:56:09 <yorick> dih has the nice move to spectator on join patch
19:56:18 <Ammler> doesn't say COMPANY password already do that?
19:56:50 <Ammler> I would like to have the ps unpassworded
19:57:13 <Ammler> but if you like to build (join company), you need a pw.
19:58:08 <yorick> I think one could call the hashpassword function on server too
19:58:58 <Ammler> already possible now, you mean?
19:59:45 <yorick> patch the server with the password manager and add a call to GenerateCompanyPasswordHash
19:59:52 <yorick> possibly adapting it a bit
20:00:08 <Ammler> so not possible already :P
20:01:59 <yorick> but I shall be here tomorrow
20:02:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> lmao, picture's out :p
20:04:50 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r13634 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_house.cpp town.h town_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Let house var 0x65 ignore the house, the variable is queried for.
20:06:53 <Mucht> peter1138: picture from basel
20:08:52 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13635 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_cargolist.hpp: [NoAI] -Fix: minor typo (Yexo)
20:09:17 <eekee> hmm.. what's the point of having a vehicle renew button if it only works when autorenew is on?
20:09:40 <Eddi|zuHause2> it's not a renew button, it's a replace button
20:09:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> and you have to set up a replacement rule first
20:10:00 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13636 /branches/noai/ (7 files in 3 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added AIGroupList, to list your groups (Yexo)
20:11:51 <eekee> Eddi|zuHause2: I see. You've got me thinking about replace rules now
20:16:31 <Eddi|zuHause2> ooh... i have an idea: ctrl+click on the replace button should open the replace window ;)
20:17:57 <Belugas> why didn't though of that before ??
20:24:46 <frosch123> but keep in mind, that everyone will expect, that the replacement rules will only apply to vehicles in that particular depot
20:25:45 <frosch123> Like with autoreplace in the vehicle list of stations or shared orders in the past
20:27:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> and is that impossible to accomplish?
20:27:20 <glx> there are already problems with global and group replace
20:27:45 <frosch123> IIRC I fixed some of those
20:29:41 <frosch123> (those which were reported by Eddi|zuHause2 IIRC)
20:30:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> i reported one quite a while ago where having different rules in global and group caused the replacement to fail completely
20:33:16 <eekee> Eddi|zuHause2: Nice idea, but the button can also replace because of age
20:33:46 *** [com]buster has joined #openttd
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20:36:39 <ccfreak2k> glx, do you happen to know if opengl auxillary color buffers (GL_AUXi) are created, or are there a fixed number the whole time?
20:36:55 <glx> I know nothing about opengl
20:37:10 <dragonhorseboy> how're you anyhow glx?
20:38:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> but you are openglx :p
20:40:15 * eekee wonders if glx calls MiniGLX mini-me
20:40:44 <dragonhorseboy> 'glx' could mean something different than gl for what we knows :p
20:43:32 <Eddi|zuHause2> HL = GL+10 (Base 36)
20:45:28 <Belugas> too much of it and out The Door you go
20:46:28 <Belugas> "When the Music is Over..."
20:47:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> the music won't be over for a while...
20:47:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> they're all singing "Finale!"
20:48:24 <frosch123> Do I have to close the shutters?
20:48:38 * frosch123 is living right between the two parties
20:48:57 <glx> I didn't see the end of the match
20:49:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> there's only one party here...
20:49:23 <Eddi|zuHause2> but they are not to overhear
20:50:06 * Belugas guess that there is now football talks in #openttd
20:50:38 * frosch123 is more worried about his windows
20:50:40 <Eddi|zuHause2> nobody said "football" except for you :p
20:51:23 *** Boyinblue0 has joined #openttd
20:51:23 * Belugas shuts up and go back to work
20:59:14 <fjb> Hm, the new bridge set ist great.
21:16:13 *** peter1138 has joined #openttd
21:16:13 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o peter1138
21:16:27 *** Zahl__ is now known as Zahl
21:25:20 *** ben_goodger has joined #openttd
21:27:58 <ln> about the "No idiots" part of the topic... is it ok to have one idiot?
21:35:36 *** [alt]buster has joined #openttd
21:35:38 *** [alt]buster is now known as [com]buster
21:38:30 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: miham * r13637 /trunk/src/lang/ (15 files): (log message trimmed)
21:38:30 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-06-25 23:36:50
21:38:30 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 9 fixed by tucalipe (9)
21:38:30 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: bulgarian - 25 fixed by thetitan (11), kokobongo (14)
21:38:30 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: catalan - 9 fixed, 4 changed by arnaullv (13)
21:38:31 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: croatian - 5 fixed by knovak (5)
21:38:33 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: czech - 8 fixed, 9 changed by Hadez (17)
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21:54:32 <ln> what if all diesel vehicles broke down indefinitely in 2020, when oil runs out?
21:57:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> random event: oil-crisis... running costs for diesel vehicles multiply
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21:59:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> ln: just because oil runs out doesn't necessarily mean that fuel runs out, the germans had a fairly successful program to produce fuel from coal in the 1940's
21:59:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> just the costs were significantly higher than producing fuel from oil
21:59:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> which might change with the increasing oil price
22:01:06 <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause2: Also, increased oil price means smaller oilfields become economically viable
22:02:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, for a similar reason germany does not want to close down all coal mines (in the Ruhr area), because it might become viable again in the future
22:03:57 *** Madassasin has joined #openttd
22:04:09 <thingwath> and you wouldn't have anything to run on non-electrified lines, without diesel vehicles
22:05:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> sure, there are plenty of operational steam engines ;)
22:06:21 <thingwath> in the game yes, in real world no :)
22:06:28 <Prof_Frink> In real world, yes.
22:06:48 <ln> i suppose there are more operational steam engines in germany than thingwath can imagine.
22:06:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> also, germany had used battery powered vehicles for a long time, they'd probably have no big problem reviving that technology
22:07:24 <thingwath> maybe in germany, but in czech republic there are ~20-30 operational steam engines
22:07:56 <Prof_Frink> Or at least in common rumour/conspiracy theory the MOD keep a number of steam engines in a bunker in case of global thermonuclear war wiping out electirc generation and diesel supplies
22:07:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> the russians maintained a big fleet of former german (captured) steam engines in poland
22:08:09 <ln> it's not rocket science to build new steam engines.
22:08:32 <thingwath> there is not even a infrastructure for steam engines
22:08:36 <Prof_Frink> ln: I dunno, rapid heating, expanding gases used for propulsion
22:08:43 <Prof_Frink> Sounds like rocket science to me :)
22:08:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> actually, one of first successful steam engines was called "rocket" ;)
22:09:00 <Prof_Frink> Good ol' Stephenson
22:11:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> but the real problem with steam engines is not finding a significant amount of them for running the network, but the pollution they cause
22:12:50 <Prof_Frink> Well, that all depends on what fuel you use
22:13:41 <thingwath> dunno where we would find hundreds of steam engines, but ok :)
22:15:02 <thingwath> i said how many steam engines we have left, there is really nothing more, in CZ :)
22:17:14 <Prof_Frink> You're screwed. Sorry.
22:18:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> i think the underdeveloped public transport network will break down from increased usage long before fuel runs actually out
22:19:17 <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause2: It's impossible for the british rail netowrk to break down.
22:19:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> it already is :p
22:19:34 <Prof_Frink> That would involve it working in the first place.
22:19:43 <Bjarni> <thingwath> i said how many steam engines we have left, there is really nothing more, in CZ :) <-- that sucks
22:20:08 <thingwath> Bjarni: they have no real use and they are very expensive to maintain...
22:20:08 <Bjarni> this means that I have more than your whole area?
22:20:41 <thingwath> steam engines were just scrapped, when they left the service
22:20:49 *** XeryusTC is now known as Xeryus|bnc
22:20:57 <thingwath> or used as a boilers or something like that
22:21:19 <Bjarni> when did you retire them?
22:21:42 <thingwath> late seventies, mostly
22:22:21 <Bjarni> Denmark officially discontinued steam usage in 1968 and retired the engines until 1972. However the last commercial steam train drove in 1979
22:22:51 <Bjarni> and being a poor railroad they didn't retire it even though they severely broke it by derailing
22:23:15 <thingwath> well, poor railways...
22:23:30 <Bjarni> a few years ago they realised that it's unlikely that they would need it anymore and it's now in the hands of a vintage railroad operator who is repairing it
22:24:28 <Bjarni> you see when you get a great working 2-8-2 tank engine designed for freight you will not let it go :)
22:24:33 <Prof_Frink> Steam trains have been sighted on the british mainlines after the turn of the century
22:25:01 <thingwath> yep, in summer, there are many historical trains
22:25:15 <Bjarni> Prof_Frink: I don't think they count as mass transportation anymore :P
22:25:26 <thingwath> but not in regular service
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22:25:54 <Bjarni> British rails officially switched from steam to diesel in 1960 and they got rid of the last steam locomotive in 1967
22:26:18 <thingwath> well, in fact, even many of our diesel engines could be sold to museum :)
22:26:42 <Bjarni> if the museums had any money
22:26:49 <thingwath> oldest of them were manufactured in early sixties
22:27:24 <Bjarni> I know a who who bought a diesel locomotive from 1952 for his freight company
22:27:47 <thingwath> but they make beautiful noise
22:27:59 <Bjarni> which increased the number of diesel locomotives to... 5 or something like that
22:28:13 <Bjarni> none of them feels like modern diesel on the inside ;)
22:28:18 <ccfreak2k> TiberiusTeng, I've been tinkering with the code.
22:28:26 <ccfreak2k> Also thanks Bjarni,
22:28:50 <ccfreak2k> GLEE_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two returns 0.
22:28:51 <Prof_Frink> Mmmm, one-two-five
22:28:56 <ccfreak2k> GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two returns 1.
22:29:08 <ccfreak2k> GX_AUX_BUFFERS is always 0.
22:29:21 <Bjarni> ccfreak2k: you were in luck. I left IRC shortly after you requested the beep and I returned 6 minutes before I beeped
22:29:37 <ccfreak2k> Which explains why operations involving GL_AUX0 fail.
22:29:55 <ccfreak2k> The question I can't seem to answer is: where did GL_AUXi go?
22:30:37 <Bjarni> <thingwath> but they make beautiful noise <-- that depends on who you are and where you are
22:30:48 *** Osai is now known as Osai`off
22:30:54 <thingwath> me and close to the engine
22:31:02 <Bjarni> like if where is the engine room or on the platform
22:31:18 <TiberiusTeng> ccfreak2k, I think you should keep using GLEE_* variables since they're the ones being set by GLee after check ...
22:32:09 <Bjarni> <thingwath> me and close to the engine <-- it also depends on the state of the engine... if it is out of alignment then even great sounding engines are... well noisy
22:32:24 <TiberiusTeng> from the glDrawBuffer manpage: (GL_AUX_BUFFERS is not the upper limit; use glGet
22:32:25 <TiberiusTeng> to query the number of available aux buffers.)
22:33:00 <thingwath> not in engine room :)
22:33:11 <TiberiusTeng> hmm ... and you got 0 ? strange.
22:33:16 <ccfreak2k> glGetIntegerv(GL_AUX_BUFFERS, &numbuffers);
22:33:19 <Bjarni> I remember one engine (luckily not my own) that started up. It was so loud that you had problems even yelling to the person next to you and the vibrations hurt my stomach... I left ;)
22:33:37 <Bjarni> for the record: I was on the outside
22:34:46 <thingwath> well, it's loud, that is true
22:35:13 <thingwath> to live close to some electrified line is much better :)
22:35:42 <Bjarni> yet a diesel freight train just passed
22:36:59 <thingwath> i've got only trams here
22:37:00 <Bjarni> looks like those engines smoke a lot
22:37:35 <Bjarni> that's not the same as they should smoke
22:37:43 <alexboom> errrr i have a list of the 400 biggest french towns, but i'm too noob to make a newgrf by myself, would anyone be willing to build a newgrf based on this list? i don't realize if it's difficult or not (it seems, but it may be just me)
22:38:16 <thingwath> i don't know, but when they were built, nobody cared
22:39:14 <TiberiusTeng> and I just googled a bit, seems old ATI cards do not have AUX buffers support ...
22:39:31 <ccfreak2k> Depends on your definition of "old".
22:39:34 <TiberiusTeng> perhaps we have to use something like pbuffers instead
22:39:51 <TiberiusTeng> for what I've seen, X1600 got 2 AUX buffers
22:40:25 <TiberiusTeng> and I used it simply because my card have it, nothing special ...
22:41:08 <ccfreak2k> I tried everything I could to find that kind of information. :|
22:41:11 <thingwath> Bjarni: I just don't know :) how powerful is this one?
22:41:15 <TiberiusTeng> anyway I think the map-scrolling problem should be solved first, we can come up another palette-animation method for ATI cards later
22:41:49 <ccfreak2k> Since the scrolling uses AUX buffers, doesn't that make it relevant? :)
22:42:09 <TiberiusTeng> if we used AUX buffers, we should scroll them as well
22:42:25 <TiberiusTeng> but if we are not using it ... we can just ignore it
22:42:39 <TiberiusTeng> i.e. scroll backbuffer is enough
22:42:56 <ccfreak2k> Ok, so GL_ARB_draw_buffers is not there.
22:43:08 <thingwath> 749 has like 1000 kW, i think
22:43:17 <ccfreak2k> This thing is put together in a weird way.
22:43:20 <TiberiusTeng> you should test for GLEE_ARB_draw_buffers or GLEE_ATI_draw_buffers
22:43:46 <ccfreak2k> No way, ARB_draw_buffers IS there in this OpenGL Extensions Viewer thing.
22:43:47 <TiberiusTeng> if we have aux buffer: draw RGB to backbuffer, colorindex to AUX0
22:44:00 <Eddi|zuHause2> <thingwath> oldest of them were manufactured in early sixties <- germany had a famous network of diesel driven express trains in the 30's
22:44:04 <TiberiusTeng> if we DON'T have aux buffer: draw RGB + looked-up RGB together to backbuffer
22:44:10 <ccfreak2k> Also, I didn't "test" it so much as printed the boolean value of GLEE_ and GL_.
22:45:21 <TiberiusTeng> now this one makes me wonder
22:46:16 <ccfreak2k> In order, I get yes yes yes no yes 0.
22:47:51 <TiberiusTeng> hmm ... yeah. perhaps I should check EXT_copy_texture too ...
22:48:29 <TiberiusTeng> with texture atlas in place, non-power-of-two is not a big issue anymore
22:48:45 <ccfreak2k> I just included whatever I saw was in use.
22:49:07 <TiberiusTeng> since we only have framebuffer buffers (?) can benefit from it
22:49:19 <ccfreak2k> Bjarni, I wouldn't mind one of those in my car.
22:49:25 <Bjarni> I don't think they smoke that much considering the age and size and that movie is recorded while driving uphill
22:49:26 <ccfreak2k> Although I'm sure my car would mind.
22:49:41 <Bjarni> ccfreak2k: hehe... I bet you would mind the startup time though
22:49:55 <Bjarni> and the half a ton of batteries needed to start it
22:50:00 <TiberiusTeng> WGL_ARB_pbuffer is difficult to utilize (and I believe it's Windows-specific)
22:50:11 <TiberiusTeng> but there isn't many cards supporting FBO ... ouch
22:50:31 <thingwath> well, maybe there are some filters or something like that, i don't know :)
22:51:31 <Bjarni> btw this is *MY* engine :D
22:51:54 <Bjarni> hence the reason why I have pictures of the inside
22:52:03 <TiberiusTeng> ahh. X850 do support FBO
22:52:16 <TiberiusTeng> now if we create an FBO, bind it to second draw target, and use it just like AUX0 ...
22:52:33 <thingwath> well, 749 still doesn't some as much as soviet-built 781 :)
22:52:35 <TiberiusTeng> by the way, ccfreak2k, did you solved the scrolling issue ?
22:53:01 <ccfreak2k> I was absorbed in the AUX buffer since I thought that was why the scrolling was having issues.
22:53:45 <Bjarni> Soviet diesels smoke a lot for some reason
22:54:11 <thingwath> but those are long time out of service (even though they are younger, CD hates 6-axle engines)
22:54:12 <Bjarni> I don't think they would be allowed in the west with the modern standards
22:54:21 <Bjarni> maybe not in Asia either
22:54:23 <ccfreak2k> I also theorized that ATi cards don't have ARB_precision_hint_fastest might have something to do with them not supporting full precision something or rather.
22:54:47 <Bjarni> what's wrong with 6-axle engines?
22:55:14 <TiberiusTeng> ahh. that one. I think I was misleaded by the error message
22:55:15 <thingwath> thay say it causes too much wear to the track
22:55:37 <Bjarni> that's Cennential, the 8 axle diesel :P
22:55:37 <ccfreak2k> I remember because nVidia cards, by default, use full precision in pixel shaders, leading to performance loss.
22:55:51 <ccfreak2k> That's about the extent of my knowledge on that, though.
22:55:52 <TiberiusTeng> try enable ARB_precision_hint_fastest AND change the following ARB_draw_buffers into ATI_draw_buffers
22:56:04 <thingwath> they rather use two 4-axle engines
22:56:11 <TiberiusTeng> I believe the error's for ARB_draw_buffer, not ARB_precision_hint_fastest
22:56:11 <Bjarni> 6 axles should be ok unless you build your railroad with too sharp turns
22:56:16 <ccfreak2k> TiberiusTeng, we did that last night, remember? ARB_precision_hint_fastest was invalid.
22:56:22 <Eddi|zuHause2> but i don't know if the diesel trainset is actually operational
22:56:25 <thingwath> they have even tried Bo-Bo-Bo engine
22:56:46 <thingwath> it's very nice machine :)
22:57:01 <Bjarni> the middle bogie is a pain
22:57:18 <TiberiusTeng> ccfreak2k, yes, but omitting ARB/ATI_draw_buffers without removing result.color[0/1] will cause errors too
22:57:20 <Bjarni> unless it's two chassises
22:57:27 <Bjarni> so the chassis can bend
22:57:35 <Bjarni> then it would be doable
22:57:41 <Eddi|zuHause2> that would be helpful ;)
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22:58:01 <ccfreak2k> We didn't omit ARB_draw_buffers, though. It was just changed to ATI_draw_buffers.
22:58:14 <Bjarni> that's the stupid design
22:58:19 <thingwath> they are still in regular service for a mining company
22:58:30 <Bjarni> the middle bogie has to move sideways when the locomotive passes a curve
22:58:52 <ccfreak2k> One of the shaders had an error while compiling, but the others compiled without issue.
22:58:55 <Bjarni> meaning the connection between the bogie and the locomotive is really complicated, expensive to build and expensive to maintain
22:59:03 <Bjarni> and I wouldn't trust it for reliability either
22:59:18 <thingwath> SD likes them, and even ordered some others after the first delivery :)
22:59:55 <ccfreak2k> "While you're reading about FBOs, take our weight test!"
23:00:29 * Bjarni notes not to buy stocks in SD
23:00:42 <TiberiusTeng> seems it can't be used as one of multiple drawing targets ...
23:00:48 <TiberiusTeng> now I wonder if we can draw to BACK_RIGHT
23:00:58 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause2: the green locomotive is the oldest, then the front one, right?
23:01:05 <TiberiusTeng> (is there anyone plan to play OpenGL OTTD with stereo glasses? :p)
23:01:18 <Bjarni> then the steamer and the newest is the DMU thingie in the middle
23:01:31 <Bjarni> at least I think that's the age order but I'm not sure
23:01:34 <alexboom> good night every body
23:01:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> they are both E 18, so the one with the lower number should be older
23:02:13 <Eddi|zuHause2> and the diesel trainset is from roughly the same time
23:03:03 <Bjarni> which makes the steam locomotive the newest part of the train?
23:03:11 <Bjarni> thought it's not surprising
23:03:14 <TiberiusTeng> hmm, it doesn't work. GL_BACK_RIGHT is not a solution.
23:04:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't know much about the steam engine
23:04:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> i thought it said 58
23:04:56 <Bjarni> we should both read the text :P
23:04:57 <Bjarni> E 18 047 mit E 18 31 und SVZ 137 "Leipzig" im Schlepp und BR 52 8154 hintenan
23:05:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> there was an 8 ;)
23:05:42 <TiberiusTeng> seems we can bind FBO color attachments (textures) as draw buffers ... great.
23:05:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> but i don't know when the 52's were produced
23:06:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> E 18 and SVT 137 were from the mid to late 30's
23:06:50 <Bjarni> Build date 1942 – 1945 <-- wikipedia
23:07:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> then it was obviously a wartime locomotive ;)
23:07:36 <Bjarni> Grand total: 6,161 units (approximately) <-- number of built locomotives
23:09:06 <Bjarni> according to wikipedia BR52 is a BR50 built without the gadgets they couldn't get during the war
23:09:56 <Bjarni> I have always been told that it was an advanced BR50
23:10:08 <Bjarni> but the wikipedia version makes more sense
23:10:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> "perfection is not when you have nothing more to add, but when you have nothing more to leave out"
23:10:56 <Bjarni> BR50 in Belgium, NMBS/SNCB class 25; in Denmark, DSB class N. <--- yeah we got 12 of them and scrapped all of them
23:11:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, if things have been used in the war, they are probably not very useful anymore afterwards :p
23:12:03 <Bjarni> they had to give a lot of them to Belgium and they didn't need them (now that was a clever move, taking the locomotives from somebody who really needs them and give them to somebody who don't know what to do with them)
23:12:17 <Bjarni> so they sold 12 of them to Denmark for nearly nothing
23:12:45 <Bjarni> and they pulled heavy freight for years
23:13:02 <Bjarni> it's the strongest freight steam locomotive ever used in Denmark
23:13:28 <Bjarni> too strong it seemed because they lowered the boiler pressure from 16 to 12 kg/cm^2
23:14:01 <ccfreak2k> Also, I updated the opengl blitter topic with my binary for people to test.
23:14:35 <Bjarni> Denmark got 4 locomotives as direct wartime damage compensation. 3 BR42 (I think it was) was left behind and we just started using them as our own
23:15:00 <Bjarni> we also got one far less known locomotive and... well they never managed to get it operational again
23:15:34 <Bjarni> so it ended up being a wagon with a boiler used to deliver heating steam to passenger wagons when no locomotive was connected to them
23:16:55 <TiberiusTeng> ccfreak2k, thanks!
23:17:32 <Bjarni> it screwed the switches :P
23:17:43 <ccfreak2k> It's mostly to collect stats, although something else useful might come from it.
23:17:47 <TiberiusTeng> IMO the scrolling problem is not that complex ... since it only used copy_texture functionality, and almost the same as mouse cursor background processing ...
23:18:13 <ccfreak2k> That's implemented in uh
23:18:23 <ccfreak2k> ScrollBuffer right?
23:19:04 <Bjarni> It was prone to frequent derailments, and despite its large number of wheels, it was still too heavy for the track. As a result of its long wheelbase, the AA20-1 also spread the track and wrecked the points of the switches it passed over. It was too big to fit on the turntables, too powerful for the couplers in use at the time and unable to run at full power for very long due to its undersized boiler. <--- gee I wonder why they only
23:19:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, i read of this engine somewhere
23:20:45 <Bjarni> I need my beauty sleep
23:21:02 <Bjarni> either that or I need regular sleep because I have to get up in the morning
23:28:22 <ccfreak2k> TiberiusTeng, glTexImage2D() is throwing GL_INVALID_OPERATION (I assume), but the OpenGL specs state that it shouldn't.
23:29:20 <TiberiusTeng> yep. really puzzles me.
23:29:47 <ccfreak2k> It makes me wonder if it throws that if there's some other undefined error.
23:29:49 <TiberiusTeng> I'll write a macro to glGetError() when calling every OpenGL macros in debug build only.
23:30:09 <TiberiusTeng> or I did something wrong with other functions ...
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23:32:47 <Digitalfox> ccfreak2k and TiberiusTeng, I have post a screen shot of command line when running Open in Debug mode on a Radeon 9800XT, hope it helps :)
23:33:29 <ccfreak2k> I was hoping for a text dump, but good enough.
23:33:58 <TiberiusTeng> 9800XT does not have EXT_copy_texture ?!
23:35:50 <TiberiusTeng> but looks like it do have glCopyTex* functions, else it will display black screen ...
23:36:59 <ccfreak2k> Is there some specific point where querying GLEE_ would be best? I did it in b->PostDriverInit();.
23:39:33 <TiberiusTeng> there's no difference I believe.
23:40:19 <TiberiusTeng> but caching the result in PostDriverInit() would be better ...
23:40:21 <Digitalfox> Would the log from command line from a radeon 9600 mobility also help?
23:40:23 <ccfreak2k> I didn't think so, but I wanted to be sure.
23:40:32 <ccfreak2k> Digitalfox, anything would.
23:40:40 <Digitalfox> will post that also
23:41:08 <TiberiusTeng> if the button text color in title screen is black, then there's hope. :p
23:41:19 <TiberiusTeng> ouch, one second late
23:42:01 <ccfreak2k> Yeah the text looks like that when AF or FSAA (I dunno which one) is enabled.
23:44:03 <Digitalfox_> TiberiusTeng I'm still here :)
23:45:21 <TiberiusTeng> ccfreak2k, disabling AF/FSAA will cure it?
23:45:43 <TiberiusTeng> if it does, then I don't have to dig into texture coordinates again :p
23:45:54 <ccfreak2k> Keeping it from being forced makes the text look normal blocky again.
23:46:42 <ccfreak2k> So the text is fine. The colors and scrolling and what not are still erroneous, though.
23:46:49 <TiberiusTeng> I was thinking that I did something wrong with texture coordinates ... fortunately it's not my fault this time
23:47:02 <Digitalfox_> ok 9600 post uploaded
23:48:17 <Digitalfox_> this is with radeon oficial drivers on 9800 and 9600, but not the most updated like with 3 or 4 months
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23:52:38 <ccfreak2k> Actually, I can't seem to replicate the behavior again..
23:53:21 <ccfreak2k> Actually I can't replicate it AT ALL.
23:53:29 <TiberiusTeng> ccfreak2k, could you mention that AF/FSAA thing in your post containing the binary ?
23:53:33 <ccfreak2k> If I turn on my super deluxe settings, the text just looks fucked up in general.
23:53:43 <ccfreak2k> Instead of the nice smooth anti-aliasing.
23:53:57 <ccfreak2k> Not that openttd would benefit from FSAA. :)
23:54:06 <TiberiusTeng> well I think the driver tried to interpolate 'color indexes'
23:54:26 <TiberiusTeng> which will certainly blow up the graphics ...
23:55:16 <TiberiusTeng> because in early development I once forgot to set GL_NEAREST on color index textures, and the result looks exactly the same.
23:55:20 <ccfreak2k> Mobility 9600 support copy textures.
23:55:40 <TiberiusTeng> and it made me spend about 5 hours tracing the issue ...........
23:56:12 <ccfreak2k> Well, it claims support.
23:56:42 <TiberiusTeng> if the card doesn't support copy textures, mouse cursor will blow up
23:56:47 <ccfreak2k> Digitalfox, Mobility 9600 on Windows, right?
23:57:00 <ccfreak2k> That's why I added "claims".
23:57:28 <ccfreak2k> If there's one thing I've learned from this experience, it's that "claims" and "supports" are mutually independent.
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continue to next day ⏵
