IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-06-21
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00:02:42 <SpComb> right, now the same thing iwth the ICE3
00:14:13 <fjb> Shit. I have an helicopter which stands above a heli port and doesn't move.
00:18:08 <fjb> I can stop it in the air. Strange.
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00:36:56 <fjb> It is standing in the air above the heliport and is stoped. Ofcourse it is blocking the heliport.
00:37:53 <SmatZ> fjb: save that game. Maybe report bug. Does changing planespeed patch help? What value do you have now?
00:38:04 <SmatZ> anyway, savegame would be interesting
00:38:49 <fjb> Yes, trunk +YAPP +infrstructure sharing. So I'm not sure if that bug is in plain trunk.
00:39:12 <SmatZ> YAPP shouldn't affect anything
00:39:28 <fjb> The bug occured after one of the orders got invalid.
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01:00:21 <fjb> Hm, what problem are the Canset guys having now? No version is availlable anymore. The official reason is the engine pool of OpenTTD. I don't understand that. Why do they not allow any downloads of that set anymore?
01:08:58 <Belugas_Gone> fjb, can you read?
01:09:02 <Belugas_Gone> "Updates including bug fixes for v0.3 are now suspended until we can provide a workable solution that can cater for multiple GRF engine sets in OpenTTD; it'll be v0.4 ..."
01:09:53 <Belugas_Gone> Thig is, i think OzTransLtd works on impulsion
01:10:04 <Belugas_Gone> nto really taking the time to think
01:10:27 <fjb> Yes, but just documenting that there ist a bug with that feature enabled would be enough till version 0.4 is out. No reason to entirely withdrw version 0.3.
01:13:09 <fjb> The set works in TTDP. TTDP has no engine pool. So why should people playing TTDP not use version 0.3 of that set?
01:16:35 <Belugas_Gone> dont' know. Maybe it's easier than to sustain the critics like "why Canset does not load in ottd" and such...
01:16:56 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13596 /branches/noai/bin/ai/library/pathfinder/road/main.nut: [NoAI] -Fix: speed-up pathfinder.road a lot (Yexo)
01:17:05 <Belugas_Gone> A personall experience, criticism that are flying like bullets are NOT pleasant...
01:17:13 <Belugas_Gone> so i can understand them a bit
01:17:18 <Belugas_Gone> them ... or him...
01:20:29 <fjb> Some of the criticisms were not nice. But there are idiots every where. You can do nothing about that. But some other criticisms where home grown. Just disabling the set under certain circumstances without explaining any reason is not nice either. Unexpected behavior that is intended by the author is confusing people.
01:22:39 <Belugas_Gone> Granted, but it's their decision, for their reasons. I think it's not a good think to moan about it
01:23:46 <fjb> Explaining the decisions would keep most of the moaning down.
01:25:49 <Belugas_Gone> are you kidding ? It will just start another round of discussions from wannabe coders and others, as to how to circumvent it...
01:25:59 <Belugas_Gone> no, believe me, it's better taht way
01:26:34 <Belugas_Gone> you do not know how often did i wanted to be VERY nasty on forums lately... I can totally undersdtand those guys
01:27:10 <Belugas_Gone> just take a look at the autodownload of newgrfs
01:27:35 <Belugas_Gone> we said no countless of times, as with the reasons why not.
01:27:42 <Belugas_Gone> go you think it has stopped the converstaion?
01:28:06 <Belugas_Gone> at some point, you read it all and say... "haa.... shut up"
01:28:13 <Belugas_Gone> and don't say a word anymore
01:30:08 <fjb> That reasons wehre explained. Nothing stops idiots. But that is another case than doing things without giving the reason.
01:30:27 <fjb> Or do you expect evry one out there to be an idiot?
01:32:47 <Belugas_Gone> most of the new users are pretty clueless
01:36:11 <fjb> Clueless doesn't mean not wanting to learn. Nobody know everything at the moment of birth. You have to learn everything.
01:38:42 <SmatZ> some think they know everything
01:38:57 <Belugas_Gone> and baby feeding has bever given any reasults
01:40:06 <fjb> The only solution would be to hide the project from new users then.
01:41:08 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: belugas * r13597 /trunk/src/toolbar_gui.cpp:
01:41:08 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Codechange: Enumification of the Map menu items.
01:41:08 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: The rework allowed to remove a function, by merging two quite similar ones.
01:41:24 <Belugas_Gone> not really possible :)
01:41:40 <glx> at least they could use the search function
01:43:13 <fjb> Most people are using the search function. But nobody hears about them. Only the few stupid people are making much noise.
01:53:01 <SmatZ> the problematic ones are the most loud
01:53:22 <SmatZ> nobody knows about satisfied people
02:03:15 <bcool> ah man, I forgot why I came into this room
02:03:27 <bcool> I joined then had to go do something now I forgot why I joined
02:06:52 <bowman> what have the clueless users done now? I missed the beginning of this discussion :)
02:09:46 <Belugas_Gone> mostly, harassing with comments on how stuff can be done instead of curent way, asking for features without searching for related (if not identical) versions of the requests, not taking a NO for an answer and keep on asking the same stuff over and over again..
02:10:20 <Belugas_Gone> and the attitude...
02:10:24 <Belugas_Gone> I KNOW IT ALL!!!!
02:10:31 <Belugas_Gone> you know NOTHING
02:13:05 <Belugas_Gone> and a page full of code :)
02:14:28 <Belugas_Gone> nasty stuff, SpComb
02:15:07 <SpComb> I saved the game about two minutes before it crashed, though, so it wasn't that bad for me as a player
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02:19:19 <Belugas_Gone> you might give it to michi_cc, whenever he'll be around
02:36:29 <fjb> Hm, when I'm having an indutry with stockpiling then it may happen that the indutry doesn't take the cargo I'm delivering there. What happens if I'm just dumping the cargo there? I don't get paied for that cargo then. But later when that industry need the cargo again it takes the cargo already waiting at it's station. Du I get paied then for that cargo?
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07:12:03 <Wolfensteijn> /server -m 192.168.1.144 9003 7yC00n
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09:12:40 <Eddi|zuHause3> # ich zahle und verlasse den Bäcker
09:12:40 <Eddi|zuHause3> # hör noch den Nachrichtensprecher
09:12:40 <Eddi|zuHause3> # "Lage wieder mal dramatisch verschlechtert,
09:12:40 <Eddi|zuHause3> # heute fantastisches Wetter"
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09:31:05 <dih> very clever mr. Wolfensteijn
09:31:19 <dih> i hope for you, you dont use that password everywhere, and have changed it by now!
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09:35:54 <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, let's hack his server 192.168.1.144!!
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09:38:42 <dih> it's more like, try to hack my gateway!
09:39:18 <dih> + the highlight and all...
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11:39:48 <Doorslammer> Any helpful people here know which side of train has to be lighter? / or \
11:42:14 <Mchl> Doorslammer: what do you mean?
11:42:26 <Doorslammer> Well, Im attempting my first ever GRF
11:42:34 <Doorslammer> Ive done a / view already
11:42:53 <Doorslammer> But would like to know before I start the \ view if that has to be lighter or darker
11:43:01 <Gekz> why not just start a game and have a look
11:44:15 <Mchl> ln: what do you need non-returnable bottle for?
11:44:20 <Doorslammer> Now, my poor eyesight tells me it's \ that is darker. Correct?
11:45:09 <Mchl> as sun is on the eastern side, that would make sense
11:45:09 <Doorslammer> Just wanted it to go well and not have a major fault to correct later ;)
11:45:20 <Doorslammer> Cheers, just the info I needed
11:45:37 <Doorslammer> Making the Tyne and Wear Metrocars
11:46:36 <ln> Mchl: nothing. see, i don't know how to say "hello" in polish, so i had to use one of the few phrases i know.
11:47:21 <Doorslammer> In: I thought Eurovision would teach me :P
11:56:39 <_SmoKe_> i gotta do that to my next ex girlfriend
11:59:13 <Doorslammer> Your future ex :P
12:07:29 <Doorslammer> Now for the electric pickup to draw
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12:24:14 <Doorslammer> Gah! Stuck on the electric pickup on the roof
12:26:02 <EER> I am having trouble with one of my lorry stations, it appears that every once in a while the rating drops to 0%, even though I am servicing it quite well
12:26:49 <EER> I have 53 lorries travelling about 25 tiles (transferring goods)
12:27:10 <Doorslammer> Thats a fair few guv :P
12:27:17 <EER> the station itself has 7 tiles of truck stops
12:27:37 <EER> yes, I need to push 1000 goods a few tiles away to my train station ;)
12:27:52 <EER> I have the savegame: www.eer.cc/stuff/Wronnville Transport, 5th Jun 1995-2.sav (nightly r13592)
12:28:14 <EER> be warned though, I am experimenting with the toyland stuff, so it may be hard on the eyes
12:28:39 <EER> the name of the station is 'Wronville transfer'
12:28:41 <Mchl> load OpenGFX and it won't
12:29:25 <EER> I'm trying to get my sister to like this game, so gfx like this may help, then I'll have her move on to real scenarios :D
12:29:52 <EER> anyway, I saved that game about one month before the drop in rating
12:30:13 <EER> upon reloading it seems to consistently drop around the 9th of july
12:30:27 <Doorslammer> I may have bodged a fix to my Metro
12:30:35 <Doorslammer> I believe it is finished for now :)
12:30:51 <Doorslammer> Just need a coder
12:31:09 <Mchl> EER: there's quite nice replacement for standard Toyland tiles
12:31:10 <Doorslammer> Shall upload to the server post haste
12:31:20 <Doorslammer> TT Forums I meant
12:32:28 <Eddi|zuHause3> EER: bugs.openttd.org
12:32:31 <EER> is that the 'toyland preview'
12:33:02 <EER> ok, I'll report it as a bug. I wish I had a debugger here so I could investigate further, ah well.
12:34:05 <Mchl> also there some other GFX abailable on that page, you might want to take a look at them
12:34:50 <EER> can you load a new grf with a game in progress?
12:35:14 <Mchl> there should be no problems with these ones, as they only replace graphics, without other changes
12:36:05 <SmatZ> bugreports with savegames where newgrf was changed in-game are likely to be closed
12:36:40 <Mchl> never had any problems with OpenGFX GRFs :P
12:37:02 <glx> they can be static so of course
12:37:03 <SmatZ> OpenGFX seems to replace only sprites
12:37:08 <EER> no problem, I didn't change it before the problem occurred
12:37:40 <EER> and it seems reproducible with the savegame, so I'll go ahead and upload it :)
12:37:40 <Rubidium> EER: it isn't a bug what you are experiencing. Everytime someone dies in one of your vehicles the ratings of station nearby drop.
12:37:53 <EER> oh, that could be the case
12:38:01 <Rubidium> and your road vehicles are getting run over by trains all the time
12:38:18 <EER> true, I didn't know that impacted ratings so heavily
12:38:33 <Mchl> here's preview of toyland
12:38:59 <EER> it's a lot less straining on the eyes with opengfx
12:39:12 <Rubidium> EER: ratings are going -60% on a crash
12:39:25 <EER> I'll have to try and avoid the railroad then :D
12:39:30 <Rubidium> of stations within 22 tiles
12:41:23 <EER> ok, that's why I was confused, I seemed to comply with all demands listed :)
12:42:04 <Doorslammer> Um, hooray I think
12:42:30 <Doorslammer> Balls, accidentally left an oversized Pikka engine in the PNG :O
12:42:43 <Doorslammer> Oh well, I shall go cure that now :S
12:43:26 <Neo_> hi i have a problem with new industries and openttd could please someone help me
12:44:00 <SmatZ> EER: when you add "OpenGFX Infrastructure", maglev will become available, and AI players will try to use it...
12:44:04 <SmatZ> but there are no maglev trains
12:44:11 <SmatZ> so all AIs will bankrupt soon
12:44:28 <EER> is that only in toyland, or in every scenario type?
12:44:42 <SmatZ> EER: tested in your savegame
12:44:55 <glx> Neo_: just explain your problem
12:45:00 <EER> ok, I won't load it then ;)
12:45:25 <EER> I can simply buy them out if I'd like, but I enjoy the chaos that is called AI
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12:48:04 <Neo_> I've build a scenario in which I included all the grfs I wanted to use, but when I start the game all the new industries (fish, beer and so on) all the trains with this products don't earn money
12:50:31 <Doorslammer> Right, posted properly now ;)
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12:56:20 <EER> Rating is not affected by a crashing airplane, I assume this is intentional
12:57:04 <EER> checked by looking for ModifyStationRatingAround in aircraft_cmd.cpp, which is not called, but is in train and roadveh
12:57:29 <EER> So I'll say that 'crashing train' and 'crashing road vehicle' will affect ratings
12:57:38 <Rubidium> the station is already blocked by the aircraft effectively lowering the rating
12:57:55 <EER> yes, but not in the surrounding 22 (or 30 in the case of trains) tiles
12:58:53 <SmatZ> interesting, I would bet it used to lower rating at airport a lot
12:59:10 <EER> since no planes can land, I think it does lower rating a lot
12:59:22 <EER> unless you have an international airport ofcourse
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13:14:09 <Doorslammer> More mistakes cured, god blimey
13:14:21 <Doorslammer> Im acting like its amateur hour today
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13:30:50 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: glx * r13598 /branches/noai/bin/ai/regression/regression.txt: [NoAI] -Fix (r13596): regression failed
13:35:44 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13599 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_controller.cpp ai_controller.hpp): [NoAI] -Fix: AIController::Sleep() should always have a value > 0. Warn people if the value is 0 or lower.
13:37:40 <ln> what a non-openttdnian way.
13:40:45 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r13600 /branches/noai/ (75 files in 14 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r13508:13599.
13:43:49 <Neo_> could please somebody tell me how is it possible to fish in open TTD
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13:53:45 <planetmaker> Neo_: you have to load also the fitting vehicle grfs
13:54:55 <Neo_> I play without ecs, so only with the newcargo, and i my case there are only some birds over the finshing ground
13:55:18 <Neo_> and I can't tell the ships to go and fish ;-)
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13:57:52 <glx> Neo_: raise land and build a dock
13:57:52 <Artamir> in spanish train set please?
13:58:14 <Artamir> i want to edit a train
13:58:30 <Artamir> and put it in electric railway type
13:59:17 <Neo_> glx_: ok very expansive but I will try, thanks
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14:21:22 <Artamir> I want covered stations set
14:21:27 <Artamir> someone can pass me a link please?
14:22:05 <Artamir> I'm watching grfcrawler
14:22:13 <Artamir> I can't download this
14:22:43 <Artamir> How can I download this grfs?
14:23:36 * eekee just woke up. Still slow.
14:24:01 <eekee> I would download all the .GRF links
14:24:44 <eekee> ah yes, you want the ones ending in w
14:25:04 <Artamir> someone speaks spanish?
14:25:54 <Doorslammer> I can say que though ;)
14:26:06 <Doorslammer> But thats about it
14:26:28 <Artamir> we are quite different from the rest of spain
14:28:30 <EER> interesting scenario, is it up for download somewhere?
14:29:07 <Artamir> I do a Barcelona's model
14:29:49 <Artamir> Cities are too small at first
14:29:52 <EER> I'm interested, if you ever upload it somewhere :)
14:30:05 <Artamir> to build infrastructures easier
14:30:20 <Artamir> I'm going to upload it at the post
14:41:45 <EER> ah well, I'll just check the forums regularly if it's somewhere :)
14:41:55 <EER> right now, I'm off for the day. o/
14:45:06 <eekee> grfcrawler is flakey today. lots of "can't connect to database" errors
14:59:31 <planetmaker> Can I deactivate computer players in an existing game?
15:00:37 <eekee> maybe from the console?
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16:14:45 <TiberiusTeng> finally got the palette animation thing done. now's texture atlas ... :D
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16:49:08 <TiberiusTeng> combine all the sprites onto one (or few) textures to reduce texture state changes
16:49:55 <TiberiusTeng> it's the main bottleneck for now ......
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17:07:09 <peter1138> but how do you organise them into often used texures?
17:12:53 <TiberiusTeng> I plan to do it in naive way ... create a 2048x2048 texture then put sprites with Encode() ... left to right, top to bottom ...
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17:15:09 <eekee> that would be quicker than texture state changes?
17:15:13 <peter1138> hardcoded 2048x2048 or find out the biggest the card can do?
17:15:31 <peter1138> eekee: it could reduce state changes a bit
17:15:44 <TiberiusTeng> find the card limit & another clipping (I wanna do 4096x2048, my card do support 4096x4096)
17:16:14 <TiberiusTeng> it's some kind of knapsack problem, so I don't think it'll have an optimized algorithm :p
17:16:25 <TiberiusTeng> but maybe I can sort sprites small-to-large later
17:18:23 <TiberiusTeng> well, it's fine as long as we don't open the highscore chart ... ;)
17:19:01 <TiberiusTeng> there's few huge sprites in there
17:22:37 <eekee> I noticed some big textures when I unencoded all the original GRFs
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17:53:19 <mikk36> changing difficulty options from console aint possible ?
17:53:32 <glx> it should be possible in trunk
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18:24:25 <curson> how comes that no tracks from 4LV is refittable for oil? o_O
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18:36:50 <fjb> They should be refittable. In my actual game they are.
18:39:06 <fjb> In which order did you load the GRFs?
18:43:00 <curson> fjb: they are refittable
18:43:12 <curson> to pretty much everything, excluding oil/fuel
18:43:58 <fjb> That still sounds like GRFs loaded in wrong order.
18:44:49 <curson> no warnings or errors here
18:45:36 <curson> which GRFs could be responsible?
18:46:18 <curson> "fuel" (example) is introduced by ECS, and 4LV must be loaded after it (and so it is)
18:46:21 <fjb> All. The order is important.
18:46:40 <fjb> Are the ECS GRFs in the correct order?
18:47:15 <curson> ECS town - construction -machinery - wood
18:47:25 <curson> wait... were is the chemical
18:48:33 <curson> gotcha, I'm an idiot :p
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18:59:29 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: smatz * r13601 /trunk/src/misc_gui.cpp: -Codechange: resize the Tile Info window when it is needed, make it better readable
19:03:01 <fjb> My stupid engineers don't find a new sand pit.
20:02:36 <fjb> Hm, some train sets are not made for worlds with lots of water...
20:28:33 <fjb> They found sand. No need to kill them anymore.
20:32:31 <mikk36> why can't i change some patch options from command line in dedicated server ?
20:33:45 <Rubidium> because changing those settings causes desyncs
20:42:48 <dih> Rubidium: because the server has a setting change and the clients dont?
20:46:01 <Rubidium> because they are readable from a newgrf
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20:54:14 <dih> so when they are updated, the grf will not know about it?
20:55:15 <dih> but then the server and client should still be in sync, as the servers grf would not know off the change either!
20:55:40 <dih> or would ther be a trigger on the server, notifying the grf of the change?
20:55:44 <Rubidium> dih: but someone who joins...
20:57:16 <ln> aren't you all supposed to watch football right now?
20:57:20 <dih> so, could grf's have a callback function for that stuff?
20:57:43 <dih> rubidium does not like football if i am not mistaken
20:57:54 <dih> and i dont really either (though i do watch games where germany plays)
20:58:02 <Rubidium> dih: and then hope that every NewGRF author handles it properly?
20:58:13 <Rubidium> seriously not going to happen
20:58:24 <ln> i don't either, but i'm assuming everyone but me does.
20:58:28 <dih> not hope they handle it properly
20:58:47 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: smatz * r13602 /trunk/src/blitter/8bpp_optimized.cpp: -Codechange: little speedup for 8bpp-optimized blitter
20:59:22 <dih> can the game know if grf's use a certain setting?
21:00:22 * Prof_Frink commits r13603: Correct spelling of "optimised"
21:01:04 <dih> ln: i really wish i could read your thoughts!
21:01:09 <SmatZ> Prof_Frink: bin/openttd -h
21:01:10 <valhallasw> Prof_Frink: depends on where you live :)
21:01:12 <dih> i have no idea what you are trying to communicate
21:01:30 <SmatZ> it is called "8bpp-optimized" so it is correct spelling
21:01:41 <Prof_Frink> valhallasw: No. I'm English, and therefore right.
21:01:46 <Prof_Frink> Everyone else is wrong.
21:01:49 <SmatZ> even if it was called "8bpp-otpmiziped", it would be correct :-P
21:02:32 <Prof_Frink> SmatZ: Search-and-destroy across the entire checkout.
21:02:59 <SmatZ> I wonder why there is "optimized" and "color" everywhere in the code
21:03:05 <SmatZ> when there is no US dev
21:03:16 <Rubidium> color is just plain wrong
21:03:50 <valhallasw> america is just plain wrong
21:04:03 <Rubidium> unless the Oxford English Dictionary is wrong
21:04:31 <dih> has the use of colour and color then been 'united' to color?
21:04:50 <valhallasw> it should be 'kleur'. every other spelling is wrong
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21:06:55 <dih> why on earth is there colour and color in the source?
21:07:39 <SmatZ> dih: it used to be "color" everywhere, now it is slowly changing to "colour" :-)
21:17:50 <TiberiusTeng> well, forget my question :p
21:18:00 <dih> i was just about to respond!
21:18:14 * TiberiusTeng feeding Colour's to glColor3ub()
21:19:43 <Wolfensteijn> richting snackbar, heb trek en niets in huis
21:19:45 <Wolfensteijn> <@Floor-is> voetbal is duidelijk Wolfensteijn's ding niet
21:19:47 <Wolfensteijn> <Wolfensteijn> niet echt nee :)
21:19:58 <Wolfensteijn> the dutch just lost from the russions
21:20:10 * Wolfensteijn really can't type, for some reason
21:20:30 <Prof_Frink> But then, England lost to the kiwis, and England lost to the kiwis.
21:20:53 * Wolfensteijn isn't a football fan
21:21:00 <Wolfensteijn> I'm kinda relieved the dutch lost
21:21:10 <Prof_Frink> Wolfensteijn: Neither England loss was football.
21:21:10 <Wolfensteijn> it's gonna be nice and quiet now :)
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21:52:27 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
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22:32:47 <dih> [00:28] >Belugas< as far as i can tell, we have 2 reproducable asserts + no desyncs
22:33:12 <dih> that was not intended....
22:33:22 * peter1138 points at michi_cc, then
22:33:38 <dih> feedback has already been given in the forums
22:33:45 <dih> i was merely wanting to let Belugas know ;-)
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23:07:59 <mikk36> why does 0.6.1 stop loading server info ?
23:10:36 <Rubidium> stop loading? In what way?
23:17:10 <Rubidium> totally no servers in the list? only IP addresses in the list? only a few servers and the rest IP addresses?
23:59:51 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: belugas * r13603 /trunk/src/newgrf_house.cpp:
23:59:51 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Feature{newGRF]: Add var 65 in Variational Action 2 Variables for Houses.
23:59:51 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: This var will return the manhattan distance of the nearest house that match a given criteria.
23:59:51 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: The criterias can be: 0 : house ID/ 1 : Class ID/ 2 : grf ID
23:59:51 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: The search radius can be defined too, up to 64.
continue to next day ⏵