IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-06-10
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00:17:12 <Belugas> i would relly like to know what he's saying...
00:17:31 <Belugas> most unclear, if ou ask me
00:21:43 <glx> he likes using hard ways it seems
00:22:17 <Belugas> yeah... or he has no idea whatsoever what you have suggested
00:26:58 <Belugas> so, are you going to commit it? or ask to Oskar, Lakie or even Dalestan?
00:28:04 <glx> for now only OzTrans replied
00:33:22 <Kiloman> just out of curiosity, is openttd multithreaded?
00:33:49 <Belugas> and don't ask for making it multithreaded either please ;)
00:33:53 <Kiloman> does the newai stuff run in a thread or something?
00:33:55 <glx> except for saving and map generation
00:33:57 <Kiloman> not asking, just curious
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00:34:23 <SmatZ> there were attempts to make it multithreaded, but with ~10% performance gain
00:34:24 <glx> each ai is it's in own thread in NoAI, but they don't run in parallel
00:34:28 <Kiloman> 'cause I saw some stuff in the changelog about threads, and was confused... since it seemed like it was pretty monolithic
00:34:31 <Belugas> Lakie, can you voice your opinion on the var Pikka proposed and glx built?
00:34:51 <Kiloman> is that just for simplicity's sake?
00:35:01 <Kiloman> so you don't have to worry about locking etc?
00:35:18 <SmatZ> the performance gain is not worth the code complexity growth
00:36:05 <SmatZ> 10% perf gain with rather unsafe threads usage... is not worth it
00:36:09 <glx> it's indeed easier to run ai in "serialised" threads else you have to lock/unlock the map way too much
00:36:20 <SmatZ> because if it had to be really safe, that 10% would probably vanish
00:36:26 <glx> every openttd action is based on the map state
00:36:49 <Kiloman> so why do them in threads at all, just to keep 'em in an easy run queue?
00:37:14 <glx> because it's also easier to have them in threads
00:37:26 <glx> so they use their 'own' memory
00:38:33 <glx> Belugas: you made hi die ;)
00:41:29 <glx> Kiloman: and serialisation is needed for networking too, to prevent desyncs
00:42:07 <SmatZ> in the experimental thraded branch, rendering and different vehicle types run independently
00:42:17 <SmatZ> unless newgrf needs Random(), it works :)
00:42:36 <Lakie> What did you want, Belugas?
00:42:41 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: belugas * r13437 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp town_map.h): -Feature[newGRF]: Add long format introduction and maximum construction year for house.
00:42:45 <SmatZ> of course, one could use different Random() for different vehicle types
00:42:46 <glx> road and rail can't be splitted anyway
00:42:58 <SmatZ> and rail uses most of CPU time anyway...
00:43:15 <glx> unless you use boats with ypaf ;)
00:44:09 <Kiloman> does boat yapf consider every water tile a decision node or something?
00:44:41 <SmatZ> in fact, it is not the best solution performance-wise
00:45:04 <SmatZ> I would say it is the simplest and slowest solution
00:45:48 <Belugas> Lakie, basically, your opinion on the idea Pikka brough up, and which glx created the supporting code.
00:46:00 <Belugas> do you think it is a good direction?
00:46:07 <glx> there has been an attempt for a "region" pathfinder
00:47:13 <SmatZ> take (important) coast borders and create YAPF based on it...
00:48:02 <glx> anyway "openspace" is the worst case for an A* pathfinder
00:48:24 <Lakie> I'm not sure really, I guess it would be semi useful however it wouldn't nessarily solve the issue and may just lead to a 'if (!(veh.grfid != this.grfid))' check
00:48:25 <SmatZ> take straight line if you can
00:49:19 <Kiloman> yeah like a straight-line raycast virtual path or something
00:51:09 <SmatZ> problem is that ship asks at each tile where it should go now
00:51:14 <SmatZ> and you have to check the path
00:51:20 <SmatZ> maybe cache is too small
00:51:40 <SmatZ> anyway, I think recommending YAPF as default PF for ships wouldn't hurt
00:51:53 <SmatZ> as maximum buoy distance is hold
00:52:19 <Belugas> Lakie, do you think the "array" of friends and foes would be a better direction?
00:53:11 <Lakie> I'm not sure to be really, both have their merits.
00:53:29 <Lakie> I'd imagine the friend foe would be ok-ish
00:53:36 <Lakie> But, both have one common issue
00:54:34 <Lakie> Ie. they don't take into account grf changes (in which the id normally alters) or new grf sets
00:55:31 <glx> the main usage for this var will probably be to prevent attaching wagons not commit from the grf itself
00:58:03 <Lakie> But its shorted sighted
00:58:38 <SmatZ> so can it be defined only for wagons?
00:58:48 <Lakie> UKRS was not been released for it, and following that policy, all addon sets would be considered foes
00:59:10 <Lakie> Thus meaning UKRS would have to b updated every time there is an addon
01:00:03 * SmatZ should have a look at glx's patch
01:03:02 <Belugas> unless glx's var can be used in a callback, where the author can verify if the attaching wagon can be matched with the loco itself
01:03:06 <Belugas> or something along the way
01:03:20 <glx> hmm maybe I should use grf overrides
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01:04:15 <Belugas> thanks for comments, Lakie
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02:20:54 <gousty> is there a way to return the patch settings to defautl?
02:21:31 <gousty> and what patch settings do you guys recommend?
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02:26:36 <Kiloman> gousty: delete your ini file perhaps?
02:27:59 <gousty> it've tried uninstalling and erasing the folder, it didn't work, i'm scanning registry now...
02:28:58 <Kiloman> :\Documents and Settings\<username>\My Documents\OpenTTD
02:30:19 <gousty> what patch configs do you recommend Kiloman?
02:30:28 <Kiloman> a little weird, since I generally expect user-specific config files and the like to go into <profilePath>\Application Data\<appname>
02:30:38 <Kiloman> don't ask me, I'm just a nosy newbie :p
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02:57:15 <Belugas> gousty, the ones that are going to make ou happy. not the ones that others do like...
02:57:23 <Belugas> it's a personnal decision.
02:58:19 <Belugas> kiloman: config files, grfs, savegames, screenshots,.. all those are documents
02:58:54 <Belugas> granted, config files coulds be in applicaion data, but then it means they will eventually be scatered all around the place.
02:59:06 <Belugas> som keep it in one section is better
02:59:29 <Belugas> hence, My Documents which is, after all, a user based one
03:02:28 <Pikka> Belugas: how did you get on with that var? :)
03:02:36 <Kiloman> yeah but you could also say that a user's bookmarks, application settings, etc are documents
03:03:48 <Belugas> Kiloman, yo have to draw a line somewhere. we did it. that was our decision. sorry
03:05:29 <Belugas> i just want to be sure, so it's a matter of verifying all that i can :)
03:08:03 <Belugas> but... why since 1920?
03:08:14 <Belugas> that is what B0 is, iirc
03:13:26 <Kiloman> I think you can even just use %APPDATA% if you don't want to mess with the CSIDL resolution BS
03:14:07 <Belugas> thqt is sooo boring...
03:14:53 <Kiloman> if I had a Windows box and VS I'd submit a patch for it
03:15:18 <Belugas> it is a standard tried to be enforced by a company who is very well known to break standards whenever it sees fit.
03:15:20 <Kiloman> maybe if I get bored I'll set up a vm
03:15:29 <Pikka> B0 is from 1920, I want a long date version (ie, from 0). :P
03:16:10 <Belugas> you saod something like B0, but for vehicles...
03:16:19 <Belugas> my fault, i shou;ld have figured it out...
03:16:33 <Pikka> I said a long date equivalent of B0 for industries, I think. :P
03:17:00 <Belugas> seems like i ha dnot enugh coffee yet...
03:17:31 <Pikka> there's already a vehicle equivalent. ;) C0 W Vehicle age in days
03:17:48 <Belugas> ok, i'll go to sleep now. tomorrow i'll be very busy. but i might try to work a bit on it more
03:18:05 <Belugas> anyway, good night/day :)
03:19:34 <Kiloman> 15 different ways to do something, and they all change all the time
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05:37:19 <pm|away> It may happen that for (smooth) terrains in arctic no woods are created.
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05:38:26 <planetmaker> just as in tropic sometimes no lumber mills
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07:29:23 <FR^2> Those files from the original game still aren't available for free, are they?
07:30:40 <Tefad> the copyright is still valid, yes
07:30:58 <Tefad> available? free? somewhere
07:31:21 * Tefad looks around whistles and drums fingers
07:31:55 <Tefad> with some research you can probably find the files. google might even help you out
07:32:30 <FR^2> No, I was just talking about the official, legal state ;)
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07:35:58 <dih> uh - a new nick in this channel
07:36:10 <dih> talkinga bout the official legal state?
07:36:13 <FR^2> Not really new, but long time no see ;)
07:36:26 <dih> when were you here? how long is that ago
07:36:30 <iAN_> good morning every single one
07:36:37 <FR^2> Well, I was just asked "does it still need those extra files?" and I thought, why not ask here directly.
07:36:57 <FR^2> Some computer game companies give their old things away for free, some don't.
07:36:57 <dih> but there are some good replacement projects going on
07:37:08 <FR^2> Ah, that sounds promising
07:37:33 <dih> the thing with OpenTTD is that one company claims to have the copyright and that atari has no rights other than to make cd's and distribute / sell
07:37:48 <dih> and atari sees no need to invest time into it
07:38:09 <dih> furthermore atari does not even make a statement about OpenTTD of any kind
07:38:42 <dih> and in the other post too: TTD instead of OpenTTD ;-)
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07:39:50 <iAN_> They just wait unti openTTD is _the_ game with all those features everyone wants. And _then_ they claim it is theirs and sue you/us
07:40:07 <iAN_> Then they print it on DVDs and sell it
07:40:22 <dih> iAN_: you are being silly, or seriously ignorant
07:41:29 <FR^2> From wikipedia: "Currently the artificial intelligence of competitors is poor; it builds bizarre and overcomplicated route. The AI is also unable to deal with any of the new features introduced. A special branch for the creation of a new AI has been set up." - is that still the case?
07:42:10 <iAN_> AI does not work in my version of openttd (0.6.1)
07:42:15 <dih> FR^2: go to openttd.noai channel
07:42:25 <FR^2> Well, I'm not trying it out right now - I'm at work ;)
07:43:01 <dih> well, there is 1. an irc channel, 2. a very nice branch using squirrel as the ai language so you can write your own ai, 3. it's very well documented 4. wip
07:43:09 <Mchl> NoAI's now capable of running planes, ships and roadvehicles
07:43:37 <Mchl> and people actually write their AIs :)
07:43:41 <iAN_> what means "WIP". I run over this abbr. several in the docs too
07:43:59 <FR^2> Well, I thought it has been improved a lot
07:44:44 <FR^2> Well, that would be interesting: Write my own ai...
07:45:13 <FR^2> dih: The channel you were talking about is #openttd.noai, I guess?
07:45:25 <Mchl> it would... I started my own, but didn't really have time to finish it yet
07:48:56 * Ammler could watch the LED save for hours... ;-)
07:56:14 <Ammler> dih: Digitaltechnik :P
07:56:40 <Ammler> well, I guess, you could also have usage for NOT and AND
07:58:16 <Ammler> I remember a save, where we was looking for such a solution and OwenS made the NAND patch.
07:58:43 <dih> i think TrueBrain once started something like that at some point
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07:59:44 <dih> apparently it was someone else
07:59:50 <Ammler> It is just the first time I see NOT and AND in a unpatched game.
07:59:53 <DorpsGek> dih: peter* could be peter1138 (14 hours, 23 minutes, and 56 seconds ago), peterbrett (10 weeks, 5 days, 18 hours, 18 minutes, and 56 seconds ago), peter1139 (12 weeks, 1 day, 0 hours, 28 minutes, and 9 seconds ago), petern (15 weeks, 1 day, 0 hours, 35 minutes, and 33 seconds ago), peter__ (21 weeks, 1 day, 12 hours, 36 minutes, and 54 seconds ago), peter____ (21 weeks, 3 days, 17 hours, 29 minutes, and 58 seconds (1 more message)
08:00:43 <Ammler> he apears on a yearly base here :-)
08:01:04 <dih> no - it was someone i spoke with more often!
08:03:43 <Ammler> maybe we could use that gate for a gap generator?
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09:22:24 <FR^2> Hmm... Combine openttd and freeciv? That would be some interesting thing.
09:23:01 <TiberiusTeng> Taiwan Set is on the way ... hope my friend can finish painting it :D
09:23:41 <Mchl> FR^2: add UFO2000 for good measure... and maybe VegaStrike as well
09:25:22 <FR^2> Mchl: Now we're talking! *gg*
09:26:33 <TiberiusTeng> peter1138, the set? I ask my friend to paint with Windows palette ...
09:32:21 <iAN_> whatfor do I need "nand" signals?
09:34:02 <dih> though i would prefer seeing programmable signals
09:35:02 <TiberiusTeng> put signals on a connected graph and let signal query its neighbor signals, or ask them to query farther signals? ;p
09:36:23 <dih> if( Train.speed > 100 ) this.state = false; /* turn the signal red if train faster 100 */
09:37:14 <TiberiusTeng> ahh ... miss that yello signal
09:38:00 <dih> the phone goes 'green, green', i pink it up and say 'yellow'?
09:40:25 <TiberiusTeng> I mean, the yellow speed-limiting signal
09:41:00 <dih> but programming it would be awsome
09:41:12 <dih> though would allow me to slow down the server
09:41:34 <dih> even if limited to x opcodes
09:41:43 <TiberiusTeng> loops should be prohibited
09:41:47 <dih> i just would need to setup x signals and let trains run by :-P
09:41:58 <TiberiusTeng> but then someone can play with recursion lookup
09:42:36 <dih> that would be so hillarious :-P
09:42:48 <dih> if a train approaches, pause the game for x
09:47:36 <TiberiusTeng> some stupidly simple (imaginary) signal script :p
09:49:36 <iAN_> block.limit is the allowed train speed?
09:50:19 <TiberiusTeng> but since it's imaginary I didn't consider complex situations ... e.g. multiple 'next' signals, emulating presignals, etc :p
09:50:20 <iAN_> would slow down the network enormous, when two trains drive at exactly one block length. they would go 25 all
09:51:22 <TiberiusTeng> yep, I was just imitating the signal system of Japan railways :p
09:51:48 <TiberiusTeng> not the best way for OTTD though
09:52:00 <iAN_> are there any signals in TTD except Green and Red?
09:53:43 <iAN_> I've seen another interface in one of those non-official rc-versions. with new gui-elements and switches at the transparency to switch things transparent OR invisible.
09:54:08 <iAN_> when does _that_ become part of a version for silly users like me?
09:55:52 <dih> there _are_ transparency options
09:56:16 <dih> and what non-official rc's?
09:57:19 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13438 /branches/noai/src/ (squirrel.cpp squirrel.hpp): [NoAI] -Fix: sq_pop when needed, to make sure the stack keeps as clean as possible
10:00:39 <iAN_> ja. I have transparency options. but just to make things "transparent"
10:01:16 <iAN_> I've seen transparency options with a second row below the category icons, when pressed, those things became "invisible"
10:03:20 <dih> i think it brings up the transparency gui
10:03:43 <iAN_> yes, but without the second row of switches
10:04:03 <iAN_> Ctrl+X just shows the icons for the categories to switch to "transparent" (black shadow)
10:04:27 <dih> i get my trees to disappear
10:04:37 <iAN_> I've seen a button below each of those category icons, to make those shadows completly transparent (invisible)
10:04:57 <iAN_> trees -> yes. cities, stations, industries -> no
10:06:52 <Ammler> iAN_: do you need a old version?
10:07:07 <Ammler> the invisible option is there since 0.6, iirc.
10:07:36 <iAN_> I use the regular 0.6.1 version from the openttd homepage
10:07:51 <Ammler> that should have adv. transparency options.
10:08:18 <Ammler> the buttons below the symbols...
10:08:49 <iAN_> I could prove by a screenshot
10:09:12 <iAN_> I just have _one_ option in the interface/patch settings -> invisible trees on transparent trees yes/no
10:15:31 <iAN_> wieso versteht mich denn keiner?!
10:17:34 <iAN_> Pikka: That's no valid semantical answer ;)
10:24:28 <iAN_> Pikka: "Jawohl" fits probably when the questions does not start with the letter "W"
10:25:11 <iAN_> Pikka: When a question starts with a "W" word, most probably its not a yes/no question
10:25:42 <Pikka> I find most questions are yes/no if you try hard enough ;)
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10:28:10 <dih> iAN_: why on earth do you assume people dont understand you?
10:28:24 <dih> and why on earth dont you understand everybody else in this channel :-P
10:30:42 <iAN_> I just wanted to know, when an official release of openttd will have those invisible buttons below the trancparency buttons.
10:31:01 <iAN_> dih: which version will have those buttons?
10:31:10 <dih> that is a very silly question
10:31:37 <dih> noone even knows _if_ that would ever get included
10:31:55 <dih> why asking for _when_ is not a good idea :-P
10:32:25 <iAN_> Is there a schedule, where _I_ can see who is working on what actually?
10:34:03 <iAN_> explain the difference please
10:35:12 <iAN_> so, what is batman doing right now?
10:36:16 <dih> if you want to know what the developers are doing, ask them
10:36:31 <dih> if you are interested in knowing what different patchers are up to, search the forums
10:36:58 <dih> ln: any patcher < any cop :-D
10:37:02 <dih> cops have something to say
10:37:10 <dih> patchers only believe they have something to say
10:37:28 <Ammler> 0.6 branch was done around r12395 (> r12102)
10:37:48 <dih> and what happened in 12102?
10:37:57 <iAN_> Ammler: That means the buttons did not make it into 0.6.1? :-(
10:37:58 <Lachie> any italian speakers here?
10:38:29 <Ammler> hehe, just checked, they aren't
10:38:57 <ln> it's not possible to speak italian as mode +c prevents colors here.
10:41:26 <dih> iAN_: just patch your client :-P
10:41:48 <Ammler> ah, the thread I pointed was the lock patch :-)
10:42:25 <iAN_> I'm a end-user. I can read a manual and play the game. (exclusively only those two things)
10:42:49 <iAN_> Ammler: I couldn't find anything in the thread you posted here. :-(
10:46:10 <Belugas> iAN_, can you give us the screen shot you meantionned earlier, please?
10:47:00 <Ammler> iAN_: That thread is about transparency locking, I thought it is the invisible
10:47:32 <Ammler> inivisible came later, that's why it is not in 0.6.x
10:49:22 <dih> iAN_: i dont believe that you can read a manual :-P
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10:51:17 <iAN_> Belugas: the one showing the non existent buttons?
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11:05:03 <SmatZ> iAN_: they will be in 0.7.0
11:05:47 <iAN_> trying to upload it somewhere
11:06:57 <Belugas> iAN_, have you tried the nightlies?
11:07:11 <dih> he's not allowed to stay up that long Belugas
11:07:28 <Belugas> tut tut tut... nasty dih
11:07:38 <dih> that was a joke on 2 things
11:07:39 <Belugas> put some soap in your mouth!
11:11:19 <iAN_> I go to find some lunch now. will be back afterwards
11:11:52 <iAN_> Belugas: I'm a stupid user. I can use regular versions only
11:12:13 <dih> iAN_: just lookup what 'nightly' means!!!
11:12:34 <dih> before you make even more stupid statements!
11:13:09 <dih> they are as easily installed as any other release of OpenTTD
11:39:30 <ln> zomg, i spotted Tron #elsewhere
11:44:34 <ln> if i reveal that, i expect a mass-join by 200 people.
11:48:14 <peter1138> he's not hard to find
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12:48:16 <Sacro> make sure to clock back in
12:49:10 <iAN_> dih: question: when the latest nightly has a readme reading "Release version 0.6.0-beta5" is that more recent than the "official 0.6.1"?
12:50:22 <Rubidium> nightlies' readmes are outdated
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13:01:41 <Belugas> iAN_, you're not stupid becasue you do not use nightlies. You just do not know about them, maybe
13:01:44 <glx> hmm to kick or not to kick
13:05:14 <Belugas> hope you'll find it interesting
13:05:35 <Belugas> there are a few new features, but not spectucular ones
13:05:40 <Belugas> apart the engine pool, of course
13:06:01 <Belugas> prooudly sponsored by mister Nelson
13:09:53 <Belugas> hooo.. which is, by the way, back, after a whole night of absence :)
13:22:15 <iAN_> can I "see" the engine pool?
13:22:24 <iAN_> or is that more "game internal"?
13:22:48 <SmatZ> iAN_: if you enable it, you can use more engine sets at once
13:23:55 <iAN_> wtf are town controlled noise level for airports?
13:27:55 <Belugas> instead of been blocked with only 2 airports max per town,
13:28:14 <Belugas> the airports are generating noise, that the town will tolerate up to a certain point
13:28:28 <Belugas> so, you can have miore than 2 airports per town
13:28:39 <Belugas> proudly sponsored by me
13:29:17 <Gekz> Belugas: you made that a patch?
13:29:38 <Belugas> it's not a patch, it's a FEATURE
13:30:33 <iAN_> and "noise" is generated by "airplanes"?
13:30:50 <Belugas> let say by the operations of the aiport in general
13:30:53 <iAN_> So I place there 12 airports around the city and _then_ start buying aircrafts?
13:31:04 <Belugas> so even when there are no planes, it does still generate noise
13:31:37 <ln> the plural of "aircraft" is not "aircrafts".
13:32:25 <Belugas> iAN_, as soon as you place the airport, the noise stuff quicks in :)
13:33:26 <iAN_> so, how do you distinguish between aircraft and aircraft then?
13:34:09 <iAN_> people boarded the aircraft
13:34:21 <iAN_> how many persons entered how much airplanes?
13:35:28 <Belugas> well... a trick would be to not use aircraft, but airplane(s) instead ;)
13:35:32 <Rubidium> persons boarded the trains: how many persons entered how much trains?
13:35:56 <iAN_> at least two trains and at least two people
13:36:11 <iAN_> so, your station has at least two platfors,
13:36:34 <iAN_> I'd like to use "aircrafts" in future, just to be sure
13:36:41 <Rubidium> they could along the same platform
13:37:18 <Rubidium> iAN_: gramatically 0 persons boarding 0 trains is also possible
13:37:46 <iAN_> would that be possible in OTT that I place a signal on a platform and have several "short" trains on the same platform?
13:38:35 <iAN_> would not make sense, because the first would stop in the first part of the station then :-(
13:38:48 <Rubidium> possibly yes, would it work okay? not sure, is it going to be implemented soon? probably not
13:39:36 <iAN_> I can place a long platform (7 tiles) and add two short platforms (3 tiles) with a signal in the middle.
13:40:21 <iAN_> so. no need to implement this =)
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13:46:53 <DorpsGek> Gekz: dvdb was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 1 day, 20 hours, 5 minutes, and 47 seconds ago: <dvdb> question: are there plans to realize diagonal bridges/tunnels?
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14:09:03 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13439 /branches/noai/bin/ai/ (3 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Fix: set svn props and keywords, and fix Author and Version
14:10:29 <Ammler> is there somewhere really old nightlies available (around r3000)
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14:11:48 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13440 /branches/noai/ (14 files in 6 dirs):
14:11:48 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add: introducing ai/library, a method to load libraries into your AI.
14:11:48 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Note: to use a library, use in your AI: import("categorie.name", "LocalName", version_number_of_library)
14:11:48 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Example: import("sets.priority_queue", "PQ", 1); local pq = PQ(2); pq.insert(2, 1);
14:11:48 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add [Library]: sets.priority_queue (based on work by Morloth)
14:12:30 <Rubidium> oh boy... someone wants PBS?
14:12:47 <Ammler> well, then I would prefer YAPP
14:12:59 <Ammler> no, we want to make a "nostalgic game"
14:15:31 <peter1138> hmm, did 0.4.5 have newstations?
14:15:31 <Rubidium> but I guess DBXL has the best chance in working
14:16:28 <Rubidium> judging on changelog.txt
14:20:30 <glx> you can try on the archive
14:24:26 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: glx * r13441 /branches/noai/src/ai/ai.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix (r13440): NO_THREADS compilation
14:24:50 <Rubidium> the archive only has sources
14:25:02 <Rubidium> and if you need sources a svn co can be done as quickly
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14:40:45 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: glx * r13442 /branches/noai/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added 'rescan_ai' console command. Use it to rescan the ai dir when you add AIs or libraries without needing to exit and restart openttd.
14:41:16 <Eddi|zuHause3> <ln> not penny's boat <- you are sooo last year
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14:48:37 * dih pitties Rubidium for some of the people he has to deal with ;-)
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14:56:58 <Eddi|zuHause3> <Pikka> I find most questions are yes/no if you try hard enough ;) <- people always stare at me like an oven if i try that :p
14:58:29 <Eddi|zuHause3> <iAN_> would that be possible in OTT that I place a signal on a platform and have several "short" trains on the same platform? <- "real" stations do that without a signal in the middle, there is a special signal state for "you can enter carefully, but the end is blocked" [e.g. dead end platform, or another train waiting]
15:05:36 <DJNekkid> Eddi|zuHause3: or ian: no, not without makeing an inbetween track first ...
15:05:52 <DJNekkid> but it's an interesting idea
15:06:32 <Eddi|zuHause3> i thought about how this could be possible, but it needs very advanced shunting, don't expect that in the next decade :p
15:08:13 <Eddi|zuHause3> obvious problem of an interrupted platform is you cannot use it as a long platform if you need it
15:12:31 <DJNekkid> it might be a thing that could be done with GRF ... i mean ... we have "cannot enter tile"-flag ...
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15:17:56 <DJNekkid> made a "giant" Screenshot :)
15:18:19 <Eddi|zuHause3> you have a weird opinion of how game mechanics work
15:18:39 <DJNekkid> ehm, sorry ... wrong channel
15:19:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> anyway, there are screenshots of development versions of signals on stations (with that flag)
15:19:16 <Eddi|zuHause3> but they are no real signals
15:19:24 <Eddi|zuHause3> they are either always red or always green
15:20:21 <DJNekkid> but as u say, orikky not the next decade
15:21:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> EOffsetKeyboard
15:35:23 <iAN_> whatever. I can work-arround with a platform (7tiles) and two (3tiles) with a regular signal in the middle
15:35:34 <iAN_> makes up one station with two 7tile platforms
15:35:52 <iAN_> I have to assign waypoints to seperate short from long trains
15:36:18 <iAN_> or assign long trains the order "non stop via short platform to short platform"
15:36:38 <Mchl> it won't work I'm afraid
15:36:56 <Mchl> both platforms belong to one station?
15:37:24 <Mchl> well...I'd say the train would stop on the first one... but it's better to check
15:37:26 <iAN_> the train leaves the station (one tile with regular signal) and enters the other part right after it
15:37:37 <iAN_> assign long trains the order "non stop via short platform to short platform"
15:38:00 <iAN_> makes the train "ignore" the first part, leave to the signal and enter (again) and stop
15:38:40 <Rubidium> iAN_: you actually tried it?
15:40:04 <Mchl> but then... even if it works, the seven-tile train stops on a three tile platform...
15:40:26 <Mchl> load/unload speed is reduced
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15:47:07 <iAN_> even go nonstop via station is ignored and train stops
15:48:38 <Ammler> :-) seems like 0.4.5 doesn't work with vista
15:48:49 <iAN_> ok, I'll finish for today .. will go home now
16:11:18 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: belugas * r13443 /trunk/src/newgrf_industries.cpp:
16:11:18 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Feature[newGRF]: Add var 0x69 for industries, long format construction date.
16:11:18 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: Same as var B0, but base year is now 0, instead of 1920
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16:46:25 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r13444 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt order_gui.cpp): -Codechange: make the order GUI somewhat more efficient. The most used options can be done with a single click now.
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17:28:50 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: smatz * r13445 /trunk/src/blitter/ (32bpp_optimized.cpp 32bpp_optimized.hpp): -Codechange: make 32bpp_optimized blitter ~10-20% faster in drawing (depends on architecture and compiler)
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17:48:08 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: belugas * r13446 /trunk/src/newgrf_industries.cpp: -Fix(r13443): changed the var previously introduced from 69 to 46, as no param was required (thanks frosch)
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18:05:17 <Wolf01> my clock says "sunday early morning"
18:05:37 <Wolf01> oh shit, the batteries!
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18:06:03 <Mchl> your job has been changed for you
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18:28:51 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13447 /branches/noai/bin/ai/ (7 files in 3 dirs):
18:28:51 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add [Library]: Binary Heap ( O(ln n) insert/pop )
18:28:51 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Fix [Library]: Priority Queue now is a bit more robust (and hit version 2)
18:47:43 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13448 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/Doxyfile: [NoAI] -Fix: indicate in doxyfile too that this is NoAI
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18:59:21 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13449 /branches/noai/src/ai/ai_squirrel.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: .tar support is not yet available inside the library-structure .. disable it for now
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19:05:25 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13450 /branches/noai/bin/ai/ (library/queue/ library/sets/ regression/regression.nut): [NoAI] -Change [API CHANGE]: renamed library category 'sets' to 'queue', as it represents more what the implementations do
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19:11:42 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13451 /branches/noai/src/ai/ai_squirrel.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: no comments ...
19:13:16 <DJNekkid> -1 * 0 04 80 7F 01 00 "70 Passangers per wagon" 00
19:14:08 <DJNekkid> -1 * 0 04 48 80 7F 01 00 "70 Passangers per wagon" 00
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19:14:33 <Prof_Frink> hylje: No, Pass Angers
19:14:41 <Prof_Frink> They're all Matthew Garrett
19:16:03 <Belugas> should not it be "-1 * 00" ?
19:16:30 <DJNekkid> it might, but it dont matter :)
19:17:07 <frosch123> "80" means NO language
19:17:29 <Kiloman> regular expressions are your friend
19:17:29 <Prof_Frink> s/\w/0\w/00/ if my regex memory is right
19:17:45 <Prof_Frink> Except I've grown an extra /
19:17:59 <DJNekkid> i thought 80 were "generic text" thingy
19:18:11 <frosch123> but you have to combine it with the 7f
19:18:14 <Prof_Frink> Kiloman: boring :)
19:18:43 <frosch123> plus the textid will be two bytes
19:19:06 <DJNekkid> i have to add d0 before 00 "text" ?
19:19:09 <frosch123> plus I don't know whether feature 48 is supported by ottd at all
19:20:01 <frosch123> litte endian, so "after"
19:20:22 <frosch123> btw. if d0xx text do not belong to feature 48
19:20:36 <DJNekkid> that is, as i understand it, add generic texts ... and lots of trainsets have generic texts
19:21:01 <DJNekkid> -1 * 0 04 48 FF 01 D0 00 "70 Passangers per wagon" 00 <-- worked :)
19:21:07 <frosch123> the 80 flag in the language id means, you specify a 16bit textid, i.e. a generic text of some feature
19:21:39 <frosch123> otoh. feature 48 means, you want to replace the strings of the original game, like texts in the menu. these things are done using webtranslator2 in ottd
19:22:41 <frosch123> -1 * 0 04 00 FF 01 \wxD000 "blabla" 00
19:23:24 <frosch123> where "\wxD000" is equivalent to "00 D0"
19:24:46 <Kiloman> also, fix your damned spelling :p
19:26:47 * Belugas is amazed by frosch123's knowledge
19:28:41 <DJNekkid> sorry frosch123 ... i have a hint of dyslexia...
19:28:55 * frosch123 hopes he told the thruth
19:30:05 <DJNekkid> unless you talk about my useage of "u" and x'es and stuff
19:31:30 <DJNekkid> that is mainly lazynes
19:32:54 <Prof_Frink> At least, the monster does
19:33:36 <Prof_Frink> There's no roof of Vashta Nerada either.
19:34:11 <Belugas> and no gold in Rouyn-Noranda.
19:34:12 <Mchl> Supersticktion? That's one of these 'Super glues' or what?
19:42:07 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13452 /branches/noai/bin/ai/library/queue/ (binary_heap/main.nut priority_queue/main.nut): [NoAI] -Fix: minor coding style. Also, BinaryHeap is based on work by GeekToo!
19:57:55 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: michi_cc was last seen in #openttd 3 weeks, 6 days, 4 hours, 17 minutes, and 5 seconds ago: <michi_cc> peter1138: should I take that as a sign for anything, or are you just doing code cleanup?
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20:06:27 <ian_> I got a Microsoft Visual C++ Runtime Library error on r13434
20:06:44 <ian_> File newgrf_text.cpp Line 414
20:07:05 <ian_> Expression: _grf_text[stringid].grfid!=0
20:07:40 <ian_> I tried to place a Powerplant near my station
20:08:00 <glx> did you change newgrf ingame?
20:08:01 <SmatZ> ian_: can you reproduce it?
20:08:43 <ian_> so, I would have to start a new game and try again
20:08:51 <Bjarni> use the newest one and try the same thing again
20:09:16 <Bjarni> <ian_> so, I would have to start a new game and try again <-- no... we have autosave to avoid this
20:10:55 <SmatZ> can you post crash.sav ?
20:10:56 <glx> SmatZ: it's not a release ;)
20:11:50 <glx> anyway it looks like you changed grfs ingame
20:12:21 <SmatZ> can you post at least that autosave?
20:12:26 <ian_> and I disabled autosav :(
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20:13:04 <Bjarni> I always use monthly autosave
20:13:21 <ian_> ja. would be a good idea for nightly builds =)
20:13:42 <ian_> anyhow it started to get frustrating
20:13:46 <SmatZ> I don't use autosave, but I save game regularly, like 10 times a month :)
20:14:03 <glx> btw what grf provides the powerplant?
20:14:27 <ian_> 11 platforms with length 12, permanent trains aproaching and unloading for a steelmill and two glass works
20:14:38 <ian_> had too much coal, so I wanted to build a power station
20:14:52 <SmatZ> ian_: (any) save would be better
20:15:08 <glx> (and the station doesn't matter ;) )
20:15:24 <Bjarni> <SmatZ> I don't use autosave, but I save game regularly, like 10 times a month :) <-- I always forget to save when I pay attention to something ingame (which happens in all games) so I always turn on autosave in all games
20:15:26 <ian_> I'm playing with all ECS
20:15:47 <glx> the crash happened when you clicked on the map I guess
20:16:01 <ian_> haveing the powerplant on the cursor...
20:17:22 <ian_> well.. usually it takes some time, but I assume yes. I clicked several times on different spots and got error messages like : no space, unsuitable location, etc. and than it crashed on a "free" space
20:18:04 <ian_> That's why I assume it could have be placed there and therefor "appear"
20:18:24 <glx> or it wanted to show a custom error message
20:20:51 <glx> so it's related to ECSBasic I think
20:21:04 <glx> what is the exact version you of yours?
20:22:33 <glx> ECSBasic version is enough (as it's the one with powerplant)
20:23:25 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
20:24:40 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
20:25:00 <glx> planetmaker: stop spamming
20:25:07 <planetmaker> ^^those are the ports you need, hzzzln
20:25:11 <Prof_Frink> DorpsGek: You too.
20:25:13 <SmatZ> planetmaker: once again, maybe it will say something different!
20:25:48 <planetmaker> try to enable people help themselves :)
20:25:59 <ian_> ecs. basic vector beta 4 (13 apr 2008)
20:26:08 <Bjarni> planetmaker: you remind me of two guys I once saw. They tested their software and it failed at the same point every time. After trying 3 times they kept on trying because "eventually it will have to learn how to do it"
20:26:43 * [com]buster recalls *his* IRC bot
20:27:03 <Prof_Frink> [com]buster: You are an IRC bot.
20:27:03 <Wuisch> Hello, Little question I seem to have lost my button to activate Enable multiple NewGRF engine sets... i'm using 6.1... any Idea where it could have gone?
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20:27:26 <Bjarni> like it's not where it used to be?
20:27:27 <planetmaker> hzzzln: except those two ports you shouldn't need any other.
20:27:29 <glx> and tell the md5 too (to be sure I try the right one)
20:27:43 <SmatZ> Wuisch: there is not such a button in 0.6.1
20:28:03 <Wuisch> it wasn't there I tell ya ... I put up busses with its description in a couple of towns but to no avail
20:28:23 <[com]buster> Prof_Frink, 1+1=10 and i'm not a bot :p
20:28:33 <Wuisch> ahhh I see. Is it automatically on or was it buggy or what happened to it?
20:28:40 <glx> Wuisch: use a nightly build and it will reappear
20:28:53 <Prof_Frink> [com]buster: Yeah yeah, that's what they all say.
20:29:49 <glx> I mean the grf version ;)
20:29:52 <Wuisch> I've looked through a couple of howto's but I can't seem to get builtottd to do its magical thing.
20:32:11 <Wuisch> basicly when I start up buildottd and press the update and compile thingy shouldn't the nightly be installed on my computer? or do i need to hack some gibsons after that?
20:32:50 <glx> depends on your windows version Wuisch
20:33:05 <[com]buster> Let me get *my* bot in here
20:33:05 <[com]buster> AFAIk bots dont make other bots
20:33:13 <glx> buildottd is known to not work on vista
20:33:36 <Wuisch> So how could I procure the nightly ?
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20:36:13 <Wuisch> hmmm I probably could have figured that out eventually Thanks,
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20:39:23 <hzzzln> how can i get the ip of the MP game i run on my comp
20:42:50 <[com]buster> use e178076141.adsl.alicedsl.de :p
20:43:54 <Wuisch> on a side note is there a grf with all the original vehicles?
20:44:22 <glx> ian_: I can't reproduce, we will need a savegame
20:44:45 <frosch123> but it is not a newgrf
20:44:51 <glx> Wuisch: there's one in the engine pool thread
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20:46:30 <Wuisch> I'll check it out will a non new grf work like the other grfs?
20:46:56 <ian_> glx: okay.. trying to make one..
20:47:34 <glx> the first loaded newgrf will modify original vehicles, so you need a newgrf to restore the original vehicles
20:47:46 <glx> and there's one in the already mentionned thread
20:49:41 <ian_> why does the industry generation takes soooooo long?
20:49:48 <Wuisch> ah I found it thanks glx :)
20:50:20 <glx> because george likes restrictive placement rules, so the game has to retry more times
20:50:55 <Rubidium> ian_: because the ECS NewGRF performs very heavy (time consuming) calculations to determine whether it might be build and then it rejects build sites way more often than with the original industries
20:50:56 <ian_> I would like to switch it off when the map is generated
20:52:30 <Bjarni> at least you aren't stuck in what seems like forever
20:52:54 <Bjarni> try the biggest map size with max industry on a hilly terrain
20:53:04 <Bjarni> and leave the computer for a while
20:53:10 <Bjarni> check if it's done tomorrow
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20:59:24 <Bjarni> <SmatZ> Bjarni: with ECS? <-- odds are that we can make the map generator get stuck because it can't place all the industries if we try that with ECS
21:00:25 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13453 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_controller.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: allow import inside a library (or class, for that matter)
21:00:27 <SmatZ> can't every GRF make the game lock up?
21:01:29 <glx> dunno if it's possible when chaining action 2
21:03:41 <SmatZ> glx: combination of action 10+7/9 ?
21:04:36 <SmatZ> Note that it is generally not safe to skip backwards, i.e. to an earlier position. While the patch will happily do that, you will get strange results if certain actions are repeated. Only action 0, 6, 7, 9, C and D are reasonably safe to execute more than once.
21:05:51 <frosch123> ttdp has hardly any range checking
21:06:11 <frosch123> iirc you can tell the autoreplace callback to replace trains by aircraft etc :p
21:11:44 <Bjarni> you could do that at one time in OpenTTD too
21:12:01 <Bjarni> I mean the code would not check if your replace order would be valid
21:12:18 <Bjarni> but it would reject the replacement when the game actually tried to do it
21:13:25 <Bjarni> now I think it checks both when setting the order and when building
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21:16:20 <Bjarni> not that kind of order :)
21:16:21 <Bjarni> I meant the thing you get when you click "start replacing" in the autoreplace window
21:16:52 <Bjarni> maybe we should make an official name for those
21:16:57 <Bjarni> how about "replacement rules"?
21:17:22 <Bjarni> for replacement rules :P
21:17:39 <SmatZ> on "go to depot" orders?
21:17:53 <Bjarni> the list of whatever you want to replace
21:18:03 <Bjarni> like replace 1 with 4, 2 with 4 and so on
21:18:08 <Prof_Frink> Autoreplace criteria
21:18:20 <SmatZ> better rules than criteria
21:18:45 <Bjarni> I would make spelling mistakes in criteria way too often :P
21:19:04 <SmatZ> I think "criteria" is something like "conditions"
21:19:26 <Bjarni> because I would be thinking about what I'm saying and not how I spell what I'm saying
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21:21:14 <Bjarni> I'm not really happy about rules either
21:21:29 <Bjarni> because I think people will fail to understand that they will make the rules
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21:30:43 <Bjarni> maybe I should dare to ask on the forum for a good name
21:30:51 <Bjarni> we will get at least 50 bad ones
21:30:53 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13454 /branches/noai/src/openttd.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: kill all AIs when leaving game in any way (restart, loadgame, ..) (tnx Yexo for reporting, and glx for fixing)
21:31:13 <Bjarni> but if somebody actually manages to come up with a good one then it's worth it... I think
21:32:45 <SmatZ> I thing current code is fine
21:34:28 <Bjarni> but what should we call it? :)
21:35:57 <Kiloman> it's not completely auto since you have to trigger it
21:36:01 <Kiloman> it's more like a batch job
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21:36:30 <Bjarni> but we need to find a name that "normal" people would understand
21:36:56 <Bjarni> a name that should hopefully say it all so you don't have to think about what we meant by this
21:37:26 <Kiloman> also, the text on the 'start replacing' button has been getting corrupted for me in some of the nightlies
21:38:04 <Bjarni> no it should be for a single replacement "order"
21:38:13 <Bjarni> like "replace A with B"
21:38:21 <Bjarni> "replace D with E" would be another one
21:39:02 <Kiloman> yeah but it's kind of confusing as it is... there can be multiple orders active, but you don't ever see them presented in a list
21:39:14 <Kiloman> you just have the GUI, and can click on a current model to see if it's being replaced
21:39:15 <Prof_Frink> Bjarni: Just put s/A/B/
21:39:45 <Kiloman> and then you have to manually stop it, even when the game knows there are no more instances of '
21:40:13 <SmatZ> yeah, normal people know sed
21:40:39 <Prof_Frink> Like I care about normal people
21:40:51 <Bjarni> Prof_Frink: you should
21:41:16 <Bjarni> I care not to talk about it
21:41:43 <SmatZ> they all have to know sed
21:41:58 <Bjarni> <SmatZ> and Windows users <-- those aren't normal people
21:42:29 <Prof_Frink> Easiest would be to have two columns titled "From" and "To"
21:42:41 <SmatZ> still they are in majority :)
21:42:54 <Prof_Frink> Doesn't make 'em normal.
21:43:23 <Kiloman> yeah, if the To and From lists had headers that said that, it would help
21:43:42 <SmatZ> majority defines what is normal
21:44:26 <Kiloman> and if the list item changed its visual appearance when it was being replaced, that would help too
21:44:46 <Kiloman> as it is you have to click through the list and see if the 'stop replacing' button is enabled to know if it's being replaced
21:46:05 <Bjarni> basically the GUI for autoreplace was written to make access to what I had already coded but couldn't access.
21:46:18 <Bjarni> and it's kind of like nothing happened to it since then
21:46:24 <Bjarni> except for minor changes
21:48:17 <Bjarni> Kiloman: if you have so many ideas on how it should work then go write it
21:49:11 *** planetmaker is now known as pm|away
21:50:13 <Kiloman> I am a giant Perl weenie :( C++ scares me
21:51:13 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13455 /branches/noai/bin/ai/regression/ (regression.nut regression.txt): [NoAI] -Fix: extend the regression to test the queues a bit more
21:51:13 <Bjarni> you don't have to write feature requests in C++ if you don't want to
21:52:13 <Kiloman> oh you mean write a feature request in bugs :P
21:52:19 <Kiloman> I thought you meant "go write the code"
21:52:52 <Bjarni> a diff file would also be accepted ;)
21:53:24 <Kiloman> yeah you guys have template and macro'd the hell out of the code
21:53:38 <Kiloman> it's impressive but more than a little imposing
21:59:34 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: smatz * r13456 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: use AllocaM() macro instead of alloca() at most places
22:33:10 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13457 /branches/noai/bin/ai/library/queue/binary_heap/main.nut: [NoAI] -Fix: fix the binary heap implementation to ... remain a valid binary heap tree :)
22:33:32 <Rubidium> Kiloman: sounds FS#1072-ish to me
22:35:11 <Kiloman> ahh thx, I wasn't being generic enough with my search :P
22:35:29 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13458 /branches/noai/bin/ai/regression/regression.txt: [NoAI] -Fix r13457: fix the regression Luke...
22:58:09 <fjb> Oh, two lines, just for me...
22:59:21 <Bjarni> it's a cheap way to make you feel special and welcome
22:59:28 <Bjarni> first step in mind controlling you
22:59:43 <Bjarni> to make you do the boring tasks that we don't want to do :P
22:59:53 <Bjarni> anyway I'm out of here
23:00:18 <fjb> So far for the mind control thing...
23:02:35 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13459 /branches/noai/bin/ai/ (library/queue/binary_heap/main.nut regression/regression.txt): [NoAI] -Fix: final fixes in binary_heap
23:16:44 *** mucht_home has joined #openttd
23:30:15 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13460 /branches/noai/bin/ai/library/graph/ (. aystar/ aystar/library.nut aystar/main.nut): [NoAI] -Add [Library]: added graph.aystar, an A* implementation (Yexo)
23:44:30 *** Sanity_ has joined #openttd
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