IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-06-01
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04:48:32 <Neo_> Is somebody here that has open TTD on an iPhone ?
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07:20:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> certainly nobody is here before 7AM
07:22:52 <Eddi|zuHause2> see for yourself what i was replying to
07:25:12 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause2, let's rephrase it for Lex: certainly nobody is here before 6AM on a sunday...
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08:50:15 <LA> is there a patch option somewhere which makes oil wells act the same in temperate as in arctic
08:50:31 <LA> so they wont start losing production and eventually close down
08:55:09 <Eddi|zuHause> write a newindustries grf
08:55:46 <Eddi|zuHause> no, really, that is exactly the option you want
08:55:48 <LA> you know I cant do something so tricky
08:56:00 <LA> I can code only some easy things
08:56:13 <LA> a few var2 s too.. but no industrues
08:56:49 <LA> I would need a hell lot of help from DaleStan and maybe Pikka :P.. He has helped me so far with the wwottdgd grf :D
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10:11:54 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r13349 /trunk/src/ (news_gui.cpp news_type.h): -Codechange: remove a pointless flag; the flag is set before calling a function and is then reset in the function without ever reading it. Patch by Cirdan.
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12:29:19 <Wolf01> Q: timetables and load orders: what is wrong?
12:29:35 <Rubidium> load orders override timetables
12:29:54 <Rubidium> full load orders that is
12:30:43 <Rubidium> because then: "load if available", "full load" and "full load any" are equivalent
12:30:51 <Rubidium> in the context of time tables
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12:31:04 <Rubidium> because it'll always be at the station for X days/ticks
12:31:26 <Rubidium> with timetables it won't leave early
12:31:31 <LA[afk]> how many ticks in one day?
12:32:12 <Rubidium> LA[afk]: in what context? vanilla OpenTTD?
12:32:23 <Rubidium> or random patchpack?
12:33:27 <Wolf01> I need to start a train if full loaded before the timetable time, but if not full loaded it should stay at station until timetable time expired
12:33:29 <LA[afk]> I woudln't ask a question about a random patchpack here
12:33:59 <Rubidium> Wolf01: doesn't work that way
12:34:30 <Rubidium> ever noticed trains leaving too early?
12:34:47 <Rubidium> that'd be really ground breaking
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12:35:06 <dragonhorseboy> I agree rubidium
12:35:15 <Pinchiukas> is there a better manual on signals than in the wiki?
12:35:30 <Progman> what agains the manual on the wiki?
12:36:06 <LA[afk]> dunno if it's better though
12:36:28 <LA[afk]> and they cover pre-signals, not usual
12:38:39 <dragonhorseboy> LA...there's one particular signalling that I never could quite figure out before...hmm let me see if I can try explain it...
12:39:29 <dragonhorseboy> 2 platforms at both ends (3 trains)... and one single in middle of the single line .. never could quite figure if it was possible to signal the middle properly or not :/
12:39:54 <dragonhorseboy> eg train 1 at north and train 2+3 at south .. train 3 often follow train 2 but problem is making train 1 wait till the middle signal isn't red
12:40:27 <dragonhorseboy> otherwise getting 'cornfield meets' in the middle :p
12:42:30 <Pinchiukas> ok what the FUCK do I have to do to make the trains use one track to go one way and the other one to return
12:42:32 <Wolf01> so Rubidium, how can I set the orders to avoid:
12:42:32 <Wolf01> 1) trains loading more than 30 days when they are already full loaded
12:42:32 <Wolf01> 2) trains waiting 30 days and then start empty, because 2 trains arrived at the same time but there is no cargo for both
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12:44:56 <Rubidium> use full load and don't use time tables
12:45:13 <dragonhorseboy> good question: whatever happened to partial load? ;)
12:45:14 <Wolf01> but then they'll wait 150 days
12:45:27 <Rubidium> dragonhorseboy: there never has been partial load
12:45:36 <shodan> oooh - presignals guide
12:45:51 <dragonhorseboy> rubidium...there was
12:45:59 <Rubidium> dragonhorseboy: really? which revision?
12:46:11 <Rubidium> maybe in some <Crappy>IN
12:46:13 <dragonhorseboy> they just seem to not be able to bother rolling it into any RC builds for some reason tho
12:46:34 <dragonhorseboy> I often had many 60-70% loaded freights (still do at times)
12:47:35 <Rubidium> Wolf01: if they wait 150 days you've got too many trains on the route
12:47:54 <Wolf01> no, only periods of very low production
12:47:58 <dragonhorseboy> (kinda a bit like in RT2 where I had 3 grain cars to one farm and at random it may be all cars loaded or sometimes only two cars alone .. but at least never ever empty thanks to the cargo flag option)
12:48:52 <Rubidium> Wolf01: time tables are not a tool to handle production changes automatically
12:50:28 <Progman> Pinchiukas: using one-way signals
12:50:54 <Wolf01> So what is timetable useful for?
12:51:03 <Pinchiukas> Progman: how do I put a one way signal?
12:51:16 <dragonhorseboy> pinchiukas..umm..click again?
12:51:20 <Progman> place a signal and ctrl-click on ot
12:51:23 <dragonhorseboy> even ttdx was like that
12:51:33 <Rubidium> Pinchiukas: as described in the wiki: Click on an existing two-way signal to toggle it to a one-way signal. Click on it again to change its direction (leaving it one-way); the third time will revert it back to a two-way signal.
12:51:42 <Wolf01> My buses, timetabled with autofill are all stuck together, trains wait at stations too much or start too early
12:52:34 <Rubidium> timetables are useful when you want trains to take the same amount of time for each trip
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12:53:07 <Rubidium> you need to reset the lateness timer manually to get them initially separated
12:53:17 <Rubidium> after that they'll automatically keep separated
12:56:03 <Wolf01> I think timetable is another feature based on the game of some players, which doesn't fit other players game, like the transfer order which imho doesn't work at all but if you make the route in the only way it can work
12:57:36 <Rubidium> but why do we have 11 bridges then?
12:57:43 <Rubidium> 1 type would be enough
12:57:55 <Rubidium> why do we have 4 rail types? 1 would also be enough
12:58:16 <dragonhorseboy> umm rubidium..how do you make electric engines not suddenly decide to run with no overhead wires? :p
12:58:21 <dragonhorseboy> and what about the few of us that likes to use NG?
12:59:06 <Rubidium> dragonhorseboy: by making sure that the train can actually take a path to it's destination that does have electrification all the way
12:59:37 <SmatZ> problematic can be two-way red signal if you use firstred_twoway_eol
12:59:46 <LA[afk]> hehe.. the trains could go by inertia :D
12:59:57 <Rubidium> if there isn't such a path it'll get into the 'take random junction until you find the destination.
13:00:07 <Pinchiukas> ok so if I have two tracks that could be used to leave a station, but if I only want to use one, I put a one-way signal on it (facing the station) and the trains will prefer it to the track with no signal?
13:00:58 <dragonhorseboy> rubidium...I'll rather prefer to be able to build one line with a mix of wire and no wire and just let the trains only have to know which station to stop at and not route-figuring-out
13:01:13 <dragonhorseboy> strangely enough I often do kinda the same thing with RT2 (and nope no waypoints used at all)
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13:01:38 <dragonhorseboy> my way of letting fast freight and express share one mainline but head to seperate end stations
13:02:44 <dragonhorseboy> to our own of course :p
13:03:18 <Hendikins> Hrm, boring night at work tonight.
13:03:29 <Hendikins> I've only sold one ticket, but at least it is an expensive one
13:03:39 <LA[afk]> dragonhorseboy: Then electrifythe whole track.. Diesel and steam are able to run at it.. and just give out the proper orders
13:03:40 <Rubidium> there must be something fishy with either the signalling or the electrification if it does such a thing. Trains will not willfully take tracks where they don't have power on.
13:05:02 <dragonhorseboy> LA...nah when thats done the trains often take wrong legs at times
13:05:17 <dragonhorseboy> so there...the line's only partial wired and partial not wired for a reason
13:06:12 <dragonhorseboy> funny enough RT2 is a bit smarter tho...if it determines that the next station is not electrified the train refuses to leave the station its already sitting transparent at
13:06:56 <Rubidium> OTTD just gives you a news message that it can't reach the next ordered station and start driving randomly trying not to clog up the station
13:09:07 <dragonhorseboy> well it does clog up the line if its only a small network tho?
13:09:15 <dragonhorseboy> hence why I kinda like RT2's behaviour a bit better in this case
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13:24:02 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: glx * r13350 /trunk/src/rail_gui.cpp: -Fix: wrong tooltip for waypoint picker scrollbar
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13:24:55 <Pinchiukas> so if a train has a choice of a red signal and no signal at all, it chooses the path to the red signal?
13:25:47 <Rubidium> does "no signal" means absolutely no signal or signal in the opposite way?
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13:26:12 <Rubidium> in the former it'll take the path without signal, in the latter it'll way at the red signal
13:28:25 <Pinchiukas> Rubidium: oh, ok thanks :)
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13:36:26 <Sacro> Here’s the first problem. The new KDE launcher is a gynecologist interface: There you are, sitting in front of a 20″ screen, but the programmer has dictated that you have to do everything by poking around in a small box.
13:36:55 <Pinchiukas> but if I want say three trains leaving the station on one track, I still need to put a buttload of signals on the track?
13:38:04 <Rubidium> yes and no; the track needs quite a few signals, but you can place most of them automagically
13:38:23 <Rubidium> just build the first one way signal pointing to the right direction
13:39:16 <Rubidium> then 'drag' that signal towards the direction you want the signals to be placed, press the CTRL key on your keyboard then 'end' the dragging by releasing the mouse button
13:39:25 <Rubidium> voila... signals build till the next junction
13:40:44 <Rubidium> this is *also* described in the same signal wiki page as the rest of the signalling stuff is described on
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15:08:36 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: smatz * r13351 /trunk/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: disable warnings about unused variable for builds without asserts
15:10:13 <LA> SmatZ: Can you give me the url to your fixed patvch for wwottdgd?
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15:34:33 <LA> How can I specify the revision text with bottd?
15:34:57 <LA> when I patch something, it still shows the trunk revision
15:34:58 <glx> modify rev.cpp.in in the patch
15:35:26 <glx> but bottd should at least show rXXXXM
15:35:49 <LA> hmm.. maybe it didn't get the patch then :D
15:36:26 <glx> means unpatched source or changes outside src
15:37:01 <LA> It's a hell trouble compiling on windows actually :P
15:37:18 <LA> If I had interent connection in Linux, Id be ready ages ago
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15:55:40 <planetmaker> ok, doesn't work :(
15:59:51 <Nijn> i felt like symphatizing with your pain.
16:00:11 <Touqen> Laughing at your expense;
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16:45:46 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r13352 /branches/0.6/ (7 files in 6 dirs):
16:45:46 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: [0.6] -Backport from trunk (r13348, r13222, r13221, r13217):
16:45:46 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: - Fix: Industry tiles would sometimes tell they need a 'level' slope when they do not want the slope (r13348)
16:45:46 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: - Fix: Attempts to make the old AI perform better (r13217, r13221, r13222)
16:56:13 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r13353 /tags/0.6.1/ (12 files in 4 dirs): -Release 0.6.1.
16:57:20 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
16:57:44 <Eddi|zuHause> is this a late april's fools joke?
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16:58:17 <Eddi|zuHause> like, a june's fool?
16:59:05 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause: you mean you can get the AI to perform worse?
16:59:35 <Eddi|zuHause> who talked about AI?
17:00:04 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i mean the line after that
17:01:00 <Eddi|zuHause> (and the previous line with a similar content, which was exactly 2 months ago)
17:01:06 * Bjarni imagines that Eddi|zuHause might wait for a while
17:01:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm on strike, you know
17:01:22 *** ProfFrink is now known as Prof_Frink
17:01:41 <dih> whats wrong with 0.6.1 release?
17:03:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: yes, i will not play openttd until PBS is in ;)
17:03:49 <Bjarni> you will wait THAT many years???
17:04:26 <dih> Bjarni: i made a bug report for you :-P
17:04:38 <Eddi|zuHause> that almost was a palindrome :p
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17:06:14 <Rubidium> YARTRAY has a similar meaning as YARTNAY
17:07:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i still have no idea what it should mean
17:08:05 <Rubidium> yet another reason to (not add|rejection adding) yapp
17:09:46 <Rubidium> YAЯTRAY looks even better :)
17:10:27 <Eddi|zuHause> yay for the cyrillic messengers dropping the alphabet table :p
17:10:28 <dih> out of curiosity, what is the reason?
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17:12:15 <peter1138> the reason is we need 0.6.1 to get used ;)
17:12:51 <dih> seriously, is it not coded by the guideline, or what is the hinderance?
17:13:20 <dih> i am not arguing, just wanting to understand :-)
17:15:38 <peter1138> basically at the moment we're all busy do other stuff
17:15:51 <peter1138> be that other changes or real-life, etc
17:16:23 <Rubidium> big, *ultra* complex, did not like it when I tried it
17:16:27 <Dred_furst> Pikka just did an awesome job of making the original TTD trains be able to be refitted to newindustries
17:17:08 <dih> Rubidium: code or gaming wise?
17:17:20 <dih> peter1138: is that not a constant situation :-P
17:18:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: why? it reduces the amount of (useful) signal types from 4 to 2
17:19:01 <dih> i am guessing it's to complex to setup a pbs area ;-)
17:19:04 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: because my big station's throughput became LOWER with YAPP signals
17:19:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i have never actually seen your station
17:19:32 <Rubidium> it'd have gotten faster with simple TTDP-a-like PBS signals
17:20:26 <dih> where is the difference in the 2 Rubidium?
17:20:54 <peter1138> big differences, but for the better in most people's opinions
17:21:05 <Eddi|zuHause> my guess is if you get lower output, you probably have put a signal where you shouldn't have
17:21:42 <dih> where exactly is the difference in their approach?
17:21:55 <Eddi|zuHause> they don't allow trains going backwards
17:22:23 <Eddi|zuHause> only with doublesided signals
17:22:36 <Eddi|zuHause> which imho causes more troubles than it solves
17:23:21 <peter1138> ttdp's pbs (and ottd's) and pre-signalling always had problems with two-way stations
17:23:48 <peter1138> but i think ttdp got a new feaure to fix that
17:23:54 <Rubidium> dih: TTDP-PBS is more like: "don't care which exit it takes" and YAPP is more like "oh, that exit means that the route to the station is longer, so I'd better not use that exit AT ALL"
17:24:16 <Rubidium> and then later... hmm, it's the only free exit, lets get a train to there
17:24:20 <dih> so a yapf inside the yapp
17:24:29 <Rubidium> it should've done it EARLIER
17:24:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: that is the point... there is no such thing as an "exit signal", totally remove those
17:25:06 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: then I get a 20-ish tile signal block leading to two platforms
17:25:25 <Rubidium> so the two platforms are only used like 25% of the time instead of 60-ish
17:25:25 <Eddi|zuHause> do you have a screenshot?
17:27:43 <Eddi|zuHause> but imho... ONE (rare special case) layout performing worse should not be a reason to not include yapp (because you can still do that one segment with traditional signals)
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17:28:50 <Rubidium> it's kinda how I build all high capacity, litte space stations
17:29:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i still have never seen it!
17:29:41 <Pinchiukas_> ok now why do my trains go to the wrong service depot?
17:30:02 <Pinchiukas_> I specify that they go to one in their schedule, and they go to another
17:30:30 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: can't find the pre-YAPP savegame, there's a YAPP savegame in the YAPP thread with the problem
17:31:36 <Eddi|zuHause> "Better handling of spread out stations like the example from Rubidium." <- whatt is this about then?
17:31:59 <Rubidium> that improved it, but AFAIK did not completely solve the issue
17:35:16 <Eddi|zuHause> of course i have no version 5 YAPP...
17:39:33 <Ammler> dear devs, it seems current nightly doesn't use server pw anymore
17:39:58 <Ammler> it is set with server_pw
17:40:04 <Ammler> but you can still login without
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17:49:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea why, but svn access totally chokes every few kb i get... it's like this for several months now
17:50:29 <Eddi|zuHause> if i do "svn up" i get a random amount of 2 to 10 files, and then nothing for 5 minutes
17:50:37 <Eddi|zuHause> then it suddenly decides to continue
17:50:51 <Eddi|zuHause> and this is the only svn server that shows this behaviour
17:51:36 <Rubidium> though svn really fails in magic ways when the internet connection isn't 100% fine
17:51:47 <Rubidium> i.e. it goes haywire when packets get lost any such
17:52:03 <peter1138> personally i set up svn over http
17:52:52 <peter1138> 'zero ballistics' really is wank
17:53:01 <Eddi|zuHause> well, this only shows with the openttd svn, and my internet connection is nowhere near full
17:56:10 *** glx changes topic to "0.6.1 | Website: *.openttd.org (DevBlog: blog, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, NightlyArchive: archive, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | English Only | http://bugs.openttd.org/ for all related bugs/patches"
17:59:23 * orudge shall probably have to install Virtual PC on XP on his Mac now to compile OS/2
17:59:31 <orudge> as OS/2 doesn't seem to want to boot in VPC2007 or VMWare on my main PC
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18:02:19 <Bjarni> but I guess that problem is nothing against what problems VPC could produce when emulating an x86 on PPC hardware
18:02:41 <Pinchiukas_> can somebody look at my saved game and tell me why do my trains get lost all the time?
18:05:04 <Mchl> Rubidium: there's typo in 0.6.1 announcment. last line
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18:06:43 <Mchl> hmmm... or maybe that's just alternative spelling
18:07:39 <ben_goodger_> no, it's incorrect
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18:32:18 <Wolf01> I'm waiting for the topic on the forum to post the news on my site :P
18:32:33 <Pinchiukas__> can somebody look at my saved game and tell me why do my trains get lost all the time?
18:32:41 <Roujin> oh btw: wiki article 0.6.1 says: "This version was released on a time in the future."
18:35:39 * Prof_Frink gets in his TARDIS
18:35:59 * Prof_Frink goes to The Library
18:36:43 <Eddi|zuHause> *Prof_Frink has been saved*
18:37:25 <Prof_Frink> I've gone one of those 1M candle power torches
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19:09:49 <Pinchiukas__> can somebody look at my saved game and tell me why do my trains get lost all the time?
19:11:53 <Eddi|zuHause> have you ever actually provided a savegame?
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19:20:57 <Backeman> Hi! Are you allowed to discuss gamplay-tips in here?
19:21:49 <Backeman> Are there any good tips on how to make a smooth crossing where you from two tracks to one with trains?
19:23:19 <Eddi|zuHause> try the openttdcoop wiki
19:23:42 <Eddi|zuHause> they have some very extensive explanations on track layout
19:24:45 <Backeman> Ì checked the wiki and it has very nice drawings of ordinary crossings. What I want is if there is any smart way to go from two tracks inot one (which render a taffic-queues).
19:25:01 <Backeman> btw, openttdcoop-wiki?
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19:36:20 <Backeman> thanks, I'll bookmark that one for sure! ;)
19:37:08 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: smatz * r13354 /trunk/src/blitter/8bpp_optimized.cpp: -Codechange: make 8bpp_optimized blitter ~25% faster in encoding and ~15% faster in drawing (depends on architecture)
19:41:48 <krix> just a dumb question, maybe i did not read every docs :) If i build openttd with --enable-dedicated then i got _only_ server binary ? Or i got client binary which can serve as a dedicated server ?
19:42:04 <krix> (i'm trying to package ottd thats why i'm asking)
19:43:04 <SmatZ> you will be able to run only dedicated server
19:43:16 <SmatZ> normal client can run dedicated server, too
19:43:30 <krix> thx thats what i wanted to figure out :)
19:44:07 <krix> and if i'm not thinking wrong, --enable-dedicated need less library depends than 'normal' compile ? (i mean less lib deps for binary?)
19:44:19 <krix> well i can figure it out with ldd tho
19:44:59 <SmatZ> you don't need for example SDL
19:46:45 <krix> maybe its a good idea to integrate some '--build-server-tooo' option for configure things ? Because if i want to package for a distro then i need to do it 'twice' :) or well not just me.
19:46:57 <krix> and maybe if its a dedicated only server then other binary name should be great
19:47:31 <krix> (or maybe not a good idea :p )
19:48:14 <SmatZ> I think it is fine that a normal build can run a server - the added code for that is minimal
19:48:27 <SmatZ> two binary names could be confusing...
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19:49:33 <krix> yes maybe, but the default build gives client/server type binary so it can be openttd. But when you select --enable-dedicated you can only run dedicated server and that binary could not act like a client.
19:49:38 <krix> thats confusing i think :)
19:49:49 <Prof_Frink> It's not that hard to do make dedicated && mv openttd openttd_dedicated
19:50:13 <krix> this is about 'just make a little more packager-friendly-thingy :)
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19:55:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure i asked that before, but what is the sense of town_cmd.cpp:1012?
19:55:45 <Eddi|zuHause> when a town tries to build a road, it unconditionally flattens the land
19:56:05 <Eddi|zuHause> while a town would look much more organic when it would try to build on the slope instead
19:57:08 <Eddi|zuHause> it could be made like in town_cmd.cpp:1133, where it is guarded by a "if (Chance16(1, 6))"
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20:02:25 <Eddi|zuHause> even worse, it does this before even deciding if it can possibly build a road on this tile
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20:07:16 <Mchl> yeah... it looks somewhat strange, that towns grow 'tentacles' instead of adapting to whatever terrain they're on
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20:45:46 <Eddi|zuHause> # All I ever wanted
20:45:46 <Eddi|zuHause> # All I ever needed
20:45:46 <Eddi|zuHause> # Is here in my arms
20:45:46 <Eddi|zuHause> # Words are very unnecessary
20:45:46 <Eddi|zuHause> # They can only do harm
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23:10:58 <Belugas> whooohou,.... depeche mode Eddi|zuHause :D
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23:54:43 <Dred_furst> Where can I get hold of GRFwizard or whatever the new one is called?
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