IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-04-13
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00:00:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> you do it wrong
00:00:44 <Diadem> but what do I do wrong?
00:00:54 <Diadem> Is it because the town is 90% station?
00:00:58 <glx> how is the passenger transport?
00:01:01 <Diadem> I mean it has plenty of room to grow in the remaining 10% :)
00:01:04 <Eddi|zuHause2> town growth is not dependent on what you deliver, just how many stations you service
00:01:27 <glx> did you remove the road tile under town name?
00:01:33 <Eddi|zuHause2> also, a town will not grow if you destroy the road under the name
00:01:35 <Diadem> I have always understood that goods sped up town growth? There's probably a maximum, but still
00:01:40 <Diadem> Delivering passengers to it with good rating
00:01:51 <Diadem> ah now *that* might be a problem
00:02:00 <Diadem> Just the road under the name? Or others as well?
00:02:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, the other roads must be connected to that tile ;)
00:03:14 <Diadem> Hmm, there's 5 tracks of railroad through there :)
00:03:30 <Diadem> but I guess I can put roads down. Is it aproblem if there's a railroad through the road?
00:03:47 <Eddi|zuHause2> you should have considered that before demolishing the town ;)
00:04:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> historically, stations were mostly placed at the edge of towns, which then grew heavily around these stations, so they are now in the center
00:05:02 <Diadem> I thought it would grow if I gave it plenty of room at the side
00:05:08 <Diadem> It's only 1 tile away from the center, after all
00:05:28 <Diadem> And I would've placed my station further away, but the edge of the map is in the way
00:05:44 <Eddi|zuHause2> take a bigger map ;)
00:06:49 <Diadem> Bigger than 1024x1024?
00:07:00 <Diadem> I'm transporting goods to this town precisely because it's at the edge of the map actually
00:07:11 <Diadem> It just would've been better it it were 5 tiles further from the edge :P
00:07:54 <Eddi|zuHause2> i never had your kind of problems...
00:08:29 <Diadem> You have to consider the scale of my operations :)
00:08:33 <Diadem> There's 300 goods trains on that line
00:09:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, i really am a passenger network guy...
00:09:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> only sporadically i throw in cargo trains
00:09:26 <Diadem> I'm not. I dabble a bit in aircraft, but my trains are industry only
00:09:52 <Diadem> But thanks for your advice. I'm fast-forwarding now for a bit and town seems to be growing normally now
00:09:56 <Diadem> in fact it's growing like mad :P
00:11:35 <Eddi|zuHause2> take this station for example: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Erlangen%20Transport,%2012.%20Jul%201933.png
00:11:38 <Patrick`> I think I'll enjoy ecs a lot more
00:11:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> when i built it, there were no houses near there
00:11:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> it hardly accepted passengers
00:12:05 <Patrick`> there's nothing satisfying in hooking up industries and solving the logistic problem of building really wide train lines
00:12:38 <Patrick`> one thing bugs me - irl, some industries would be supplied by the closest available
00:12:51 <Diadem> Eddi|zuHause2: I know. I always build my airports way outside towns and wait for 'em to grow
00:12:51 <Patrick`> not the farthest away as currently happens
00:13:16 <Diadem> Eddi|zuHause2: I just don't use trains for 'em. And I only service a few towns with my aircraft :)
00:13:21 <Diadem> But I do do it, a bit ;)
00:13:49 <Eddi|zuHause2> Patrick`: introduce cargo destinations ;)
00:14:46 <Diadem> Patrick`: I don't know. I find it quite satisfying to see 5 lanes of good trains packed to the brim :P
00:15:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> Diadem: in that game i made "many" towns, and a ratio of 1:40 for "cities"
00:15:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> you end up with lots of villages to connect with side lines ;)
00:15:46 <Eddi|zuHause2> also, it was with passenger destinations
00:16:11 <Diadem> One day I'll try a passenger only game
00:16:27 <Diadem> But for now my coal is hooking up all industries on this map
00:16:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> after PBS, that is one of the most important patches to get trunk ready
00:16:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> i just don't see it happening anytime soon, though...
00:16:56 <Diadem> At least all iron ore / wood / farms. I don't bother with oil (they close too soon anyway) and coal can't be retransported so not as much fun
00:17:33 <Diadem> 377 industries to connect total. Done 142 now :)
00:18:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, each time i tried to get along with ECS, i gave up, because its sense of "difficulty" does not match my playing style
00:19:10 <Diadem> Nah I don't use ECS either :)
00:19:23 <Diadem> Though I'm thinking of getting pbs
00:19:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> basically, it does not obey to the "stability" setting
00:20:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> you see PBS in my picture
00:20:56 <Diadem> It's useful, but I don't really need it for my current network layout
00:21:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> it is pretty much essential for mine...
00:21:30 <Diadem> I have no tracks crossing, just merging and splitting
00:21:44 <Eddi|zuHause2> i tried without for a while, but i constantly hit the limits of presignalling
00:22:28 <Diadem> Like a giant river of iron ore flowing through a steelmill :P
00:23:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> like this station: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2024.%20Dez%201939.png
00:23:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> it is just not possible to get it right with presignals
00:24:53 <Diadem> yeah looks like a pbs situation
00:25:35 <Eddi|zuHause2> it's not the path thing that is really important there
00:26:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> but that a train chooses the right set of presignals to listen to, and ignore the ones that do not lead into its station
00:26:48 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause2: do you have alpine.grf loaded or how do you get snow there?
00:27:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> it's an alpine game
00:27:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> i think i have the PBS version here: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%201.%20Jul%201981#1.png
00:28:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> doesn't like the #
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00:34:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> there: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%201.%20Jul%201981-1.png
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00:39:48 <Gekz> I can't play with trees visible
00:39:52 <Gekz> I have them completely invisible
00:40:09 <Eddi|zuHause3> you are a sad person
00:40:42 <Gekz> I cant see when there's trees
00:42:02 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, i occasionally turn them off, when i do terraforming, but while just watching the trains move, they must be on
00:42:59 <Diadem> I sometimes bulldozer trees just because they block my view :)
00:43:11 <Gekz> Eddi|zuHause3: you dont like € I see? :P
00:43:41 <Eddi|zuHause3> not before 2002, typically
00:44:12 <Eddi|zuHause3> i just rarely get to that year :)
00:44:16 <Diadem> But trees can sometimes be pretty
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00:44:36 <Gekz> You made me want to compile ottd on my eee
00:44:51 <Gekz> can I crop anything from my compile to shrink ottd
00:45:26 <Diadem> Gekz: You can't see it, but that's a maximum height mountain
00:45:32 <Diadem> Just to waste money :P
00:45:57 <Gekz> I like to play small maps
00:46:02 <Gekz> so I can micromanage more
00:46:30 <Gekz> I play multiplayer, 4 people
00:46:47 <Gekz> oh dear the whole sentence was crap.
00:46:48 <Diadem> lol that sounds really insane
00:47:05 <Gekz> my friend owned the buses
00:47:06 <Eddi|zuHause3> i play something around 1024x1024, too, sometimes a little asymmetric
00:47:13 <Gekz> and then the other two were just scavenging :P
00:47:30 <Patrick`> just for once I want to play normal density 256 squared
00:47:33 <Eddi|zuHause3> and a pretty big scale
00:47:39 <Patrick`> but 512 always calls me back
00:48:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> i can't play 256x256 anymore... the map fits almost completely on the screen...
00:48:38 <Gekz> how can trams be in 0.6.0
00:48:45 <Gekz> you can get them stuck on tracks
00:50:42 <Gekz> glx: no, multiplayer + trolls
00:50:43 <Eddi|zuHause3> this station could use a little PBS, too: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2023.%20Jan%201952.png
00:50:50 <Gekz> or misclicking of a noob you're vsing
00:53:07 <Gekz> I wonder if i can download the ottd source to ram, and compile in ram
00:53:58 <Eddi|zuHause3> 1GB? what do you need all this space for...
00:56:05 <Eddi|zuHause3> i mean concerning OTTD
00:56:26 <Gekz> with the actual files residing in the ram as well
00:56:35 <Eddi|zuHause3> how would that require that much space?
00:56:54 <Gekz> I'm saying I already have that much
00:56:55 <Eddi|zuHause3> use svn export instead of checkout
00:57:16 <Eddi|zuHause3> but you have to specify the revision then
00:58:56 <Eddi|zuHause3> because it does not create .svn directories
00:59:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> which contain a copy of every file
01:02:24 <Gekz> Eddi|zuHause3: where do I have to specify the revision?
01:02:41 <Eddi|zuHause3> ./configure --help
01:03:01 <Gekz> that's not what I meant, but it answers teh question lol
01:03:15 <Gekz> I was wondering if you meant with the svn command or the configure
01:03:58 <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, the makefile cannot detect the revision without .svn dirs
01:13:33 <Gekz> can I stop it fromm compiling every language?
01:13:56 <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, delete the .txt files
01:15:04 <Eddi|zuHause3> make sure to keep english.txt though ;)
01:21:19 <Belugas> OTTD cannot interpret nor display "no language"
01:28:47 * Gekz cant remember the make install bundle command
01:38:59 <glx> and make bundle_zip _gzip _bzip2 IIRC
01:44:03 * Gekz proceeds to UPX compress the binary!
01:45:02 <Gekz> woo, got it down to 800KB from 2MB
01:51:26 <glx> I UPX win9x binaries, but not win32 ones
01:51:35 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: belugas * r12679 /trunk/src/airport_gui.cpp: -Codechange : a little bit of widget enumification
01:52:39 <glx> to have win9x bin size equivalent to win32 bin size
01:54:11 <glx> but MSVC doesn't support win9x :)
01:54:56 <Gekz> that still doesnt answer the quesiton
01:55:03 <Gekz> why wouldnt you want them as small as you can get them
01:57:32 <glx> 1723392 -> 803840 46.64% win32/pe openttd.exe
01:58:25 <Gekz> is the the ucl or nrv algorithm upx?
01:58:41 <glx> 2632704 -> 1055232 40.08% win32/pe openttd.exe <-- that's the win9x
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02:03:23 <Belugas> :) my sn will be pleased... I've just activated Thomas the tank engine set :)
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02:43:04 <shodan> now the theme music is stuck in my head!
03:45:16 <pschulz01> How do I get electric trains?
03:45:36 <pschulz01> Belugas: Re. Thomas :-)
03:46:43 <pschulz01> I keep getting 'Not suitale railway track' message.
03:48:52 <pschulz01> Ahah.. found it :-)
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06:01:15 <Gekz> so what are some "must have" NewGRFs?
06:10:54 <Gekz> Eddi|zuHause3: I'm sure you have a good opinion on the matter
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07:42:06 <lartza> I can't find the dataflies, the filename in my installation is trg1.grf, but openttd wan't trg1r.grf in readme
07:43:12 <Rubidium> just copy the *grf files from your TTD dos (and sample.cat)
07:43:51 <lartza> should i rename them with r on the end?
07:45:12 <lartza> well, now i noticed i dont have differnt folders (gm) so i cant get music from there, what are the filenames for music? gm.cat?
07:45:42 <Rubidium> the dos music files are not supported by OTTD
07:45:56 <Rubidium> only the dos graphics + sound (samples.cat)
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07:47:38 <lartza> well i dont get music then? readme says i shuold :(
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08:07:50 <lartza> I can't get music to work
08:10:26 <lartza> Now I got music, but it's really choppy
08:18:23 <Mirrakor> you installed the midi files?
08:25:33 <peter1138> what OS are you using?
08:28:58 <lartza> so? nay way to get them work?
08:29:32 <peter1138> so probably using timidity
08:30:04 <lartza> timidity -iA or something
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08:32:33 <peter1138> probably your computer isn't fast enough to run openttd and timidity together
08:33:30 <peter1138> timidity is quite demanding, which is annoying as its output isn't that great
08:33:31 <lartza> but its fast enough to run compiz, awn, firefox, ams, xchat, audacious and openttd together :D
08:34:02 <peter1138> timidity skipped for me on a 1250MHz machine
08:34:04 <lartza> ill go get some breakfast
08:34:13 <peter1138> i've solved it now by having a multi-core cpu ;)
08:34:14 <lartza> so the timidity really eats cpu
08:34:28 <lartza> well, ill listen to my mp3's with audacious then
08:34:38 <peter1138> well, not as such, it's just affected badly by latency
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09:00:44 <Gekz> peter1138: how is it pointless
09:04:59 <peter1138> you save 0.0001% of modern drive capacities
09:05:19 <peter1138> and it takes longer to load and more ram
09:09:09 <Mirrakor> hm.. is there any way to increase synchronization during a multiplayer game?
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09:11:06 <Gekz> peter1138: I'd rather actually use my CPU cycles and RAM and save space
09:11:12 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12680 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_order.hpp ai_order.hpp.sq): [NoAI] -Fix [API CHANGE]: don't use very very long AIOF_NON_STOP flags, but AIOF_NON_STOP_INTERMEDIATE / AIOF_NON_STOP_DESTINATION instead
09:11:18 <Gekz> I'd rather that 2MB I saved be filled with porn than an openttd executable
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09:15:37 <peter1138> Mirrakor: "increase synchronization" ?
09:17:44 <Patrick`> Gekz: do you have any idea how hilariously small 2 meg is ?
09:17:59 <Patrick`> if your machine is old enough to warrant saving that much space,you shouldn't be able to run ottd
09:18:42 <Gekz> Patrick`: I have 800GB of space free right now
09:19:03 <Patrick`> and you advocate eating 2 meg of ram to save 2 meg of disk space?
09:19:09 <Patrick`> do you have 800GB of ram free?
09:20:04 <Patrick`> did I just get my wires crossed somewhere
09:20:11 <Patrick`> surely you're not in favour of UPX
09:21:51 <Gekz> I'm not going to upx everything.
09:22:20 <Gekz> busybox replaces coreutils nicely :P
09:23:13 <Patrick`> now -Os I can agree with
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09:29:40 <peter1138> upx also prevents things like shared memory working
09:29:53 <hylje> shared memory is teh evil!
09:35:31 <Mirrakor> peter1138: yes, the synchronization between two different players, which when it's out of sync results in a disconnect of one client
09:40:18 <SmatZ> Mirrakor: clients are synchronised with the server - how else would you know which client is the "faulty" one?
09:40:50 <SmatZ> it is not possible and will never be possible, as it may be impossible to connect two clients behind NATs
09:41:04 <SmatZ> and would be pretty useless
09:42:27 <Mirrakor> SmatZ: sure they are - but my question is more "is there a way to make the connection more stable?"
09:46:07 <SmatZ> Mirrakor: what problems do you have?
09:47:00 <Mirrakor> I got disconnected several times yesterday, during a MP game over the internet
09:47:47 <Mirrakor> even though my bandwith usage was low and I expected a more stable connection (other games played on the same evening worked fine)
09:48:42 <SmatZ> Mirrakor: OTTD game communication goes over TCP... also, there are several timeouts so people with slow connection do not lag the game for other players
09:49:17 <SmatZ> Mirrakor: what is your "ping" time to the server?
09:50:15 <Mirrakor> don't remember that, but I'll have an eye on it the next time :)
09:50:15 <SmatZ> Mirrakor: it is also possible that your CPU can't handle the game
09:50:33 <SmatZ> if you get disconnected after zooming out, then it can be the case
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09:57:38 <Ammler> hmm, patch setting "same_industry_close" doesn't have effect with ECS, it seems.
09:58:21 <Eddi|zuHause3> "close" means more than 1 per town allowed
09:58:30 <SmatZ> I think there are newgrf callbacks / properties that override the general patch settings
09:58:36 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause3: thats an other setting
09:58:37 <Eddi|zuHause3> ECS has additional distance restrictions
09:58:52 <SmatZ> like you can have only 1 of that industry in the whole map
09:59:11 <Patrick`> so ECS will hook into industry generation?
09:59:19 <Patrick`> or you have to place them manually on a new map
09:59:28 <Ammler> but that makes those patches useless...
10:00:01 <Ammler> patches should overrule GRFs, shouldn't they?
10:01:11 <Eddi|zuHause3> Patrick`: they are newgrf callbacks, when the industry generation wants to place an industry, it asks the newgrf wether that industry can be placed here
10:01:17 <Ammler> hmm, maybe there is a GRF paramber for that?
10:02:17 <Eddi|zuHause3> Patrick`: but it makes industry generation very slow
10:04:50 <Patrick`> so I get it from george's site, grfcrawler isn't a hosting site as well?
10:05:10 <Gekz> Cross-compiling openttd is a painful process
10:05:46 <Gekz> Eddi|zuHause3: did you see my question about the must-have GRFs?
10:05:53 <Gekz> because if there's anyone to ask, it's surely you
10:06:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, i did, but why would i be the highest authority on newgrfs?
10:06:34 <Eddi|zuHause3> besides i need to go now
10:07:27 <Gekz> Eddi|zuHause3: opinions are cool?
10:07:35 <Patrick`> yeah, if he keeps not answering your question you'll have to dock his pay
10:07:51 <Patrick`> asking on the forums is more likely to get an answer
10:08:38 <Eddi|zuHause3> i have seen forums way more busy than this chat
10:09:32 <Patrick`> you can't always get an answer Right Now
10:09:38 <Patrick`> especially with volunteers
10:10:08 <Gekz> its not even worthy of job lol
10:10:13 <Gekz> so you volunteer for nothing
10:10:34 * Gekz runs to #debian on freenode
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10:27:02 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12681 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1921]: aircraft stopping mid-air.
10:27:27 <Wolf01> nooo that was nice :DDD
10:27:46 <hylje> they always fix the nice bugs first
10:28:38 <Wolf01> maybe useful too, for helicopters
10:29:25 <Wolf01> instead of making them flying around over the helipad, make them stop in mid-air
10:32:41 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12682 /trunk/src/road_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1920]: removing road pieces from a town gave you twice the intended penalty.
10:45:30 <BtbN> Hi, i have a problem with my planes. They stop flying around somewhere in the landscape.
10:46:29 <BtbN> They just stop moving. If i skip the current Order, it turns around and flys back.
10:47:30 <Rubidium> using yesterdays nightly I presume?
10:53:26 <Ammler> is there a "trick" to prevent town from growing along a road?
10:53:48 <Rubidium> maybe removing the road tile under the town sign
10:54:03 <Rubidium> but that basically means along any road
10:54:21 <Rubidium> otherwise not that I'm aware of
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11:00:17 <Gekz> maybe I'll succeed at crosscompiling today
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11:16:02 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12683 /trunk/src/news_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#1906]: in some cases a news messages would not be shown.
11:36:21 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12684 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix [FS#1891]: manually given service at depot order is not forgotten anymore when autoservice 'interferes'.
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13:37:03 <yeti_> am i right to assume that it's a better idea to set the economy to fluctuating (in the difficulty menu) because industries which have a station with good service will grow faster then?
13:37:40 <Patrick`> yes, this question interests me also
13:38:09 <ln> they just switched to new grey uniforms beteween episodes, without saying anything.
13:39:13 <Patrick`> I think uou have the wrong channel
13:39:53 <ln> no, this is the correct channel.
13:47:02 <Eddi|zuHause3> yeti_: afaik "fluctuating" just makes them close for no reason
13:47:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> the "reason" being to annoy the player who relied on this industry
13:51:07 <Gekz> that would be fun on multiplayer
13:51:14 <Gekz> finish that massive maglev line from one place to another
13:51:35 <Tefad> it'd be interesting on a small world
13:56:13 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, in later stages you have either a flexible enough network to reroute the trains, or you just fund the industry again
13:56:23 <Eddi|zuHause3> but in the beginning this may really hurt
13:57:00 <yeti_> i wasn't aware you could fund forests/oil rigs/all that raw material producing stuff
13:57:17 <Eddi|zuHause3> that's a patch option
13:57:19 <Patrick`> it's a patch option and it's really expensive
13:58:29 <Gekz> makes your ball collapse into themselves expensive
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14:18:08 <lolman> That's such a crap meme
14:19:31 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: smatz * r12685 /trunk/src/debug.h: -Codechange: DebugDumpCommands() couldn't be inlined, define it as a macro instead
14:21:03 <Gekz> they're for unoriginal people
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14:25:51 <hylje> don't be so pretentious
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15:04:36 <BtbN> Why doesn't my sawmill produce any goods?
15:05:49 <hylje> do you deliver wood to it?
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15:07:48 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: glx * r12686 /trunk/src/misc_gui.cpp: -Fix: MSVC signed/unsigned warning
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16:48:41 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12687 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt vehicle_gui.cpp): -Change: show when a vehicle is actually leaving the station instead of loading/unloading.
16:51:06 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12688 /trunk/src/order_gui.cpp: -Change: make default non-stop for depot/waypoint orders the same as for stations.
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16:54:30 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12689 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Feature: non-stop(or rather no non-stop) and via orders for road vehicles.
16:59:31 <Wolf01> uhm, I just read again my orders and found that I need a "resume next" order after the jump
17:00:02 <Wolf01> or another way to do it with the current order system
17:01:48 <Wolf01> I have star shaped routes
17:02:32 <Eddi|zuHause3> so you need an accumulator to store the last visited station in
17:02:51 <Eddi|zuHause3> (or whatever arbitrary value you want to store)
17:03:13 <Wolf01> I'm changing all the orders to go back to A (to load) only if the vehicles are empty
17:04:27 <Eddi|zuHause3> "jump and link" [store the "return address"]
17:04:28 <Wolf01> but I found that I made all vehicles to visit only the first station, because it accepts the cargo (not always, because ECS)
17:06:21 <Eddi|zuHause3> this is a prime example... give them a slightly hint of a programmable interface, and they immediately want a turing complete system
17:06:22 <Wolf01> now I need to modify the orders in this way:
17:06:22 <Wolf01> A->B->empty?A:C->empty?A:D->...
17:06:54 <Patrick`> Eddi|zuHause3: exactly :P
17:07:00 <Rubidium> Wolf01: you're also allowed to not use conditional orders
17:07:01 <Wolf01> this mean that I'll fill the order list very quickly
17:07:48 <Wolf01> but with no conditional orders the vehicles must come back to A every time, also if still loaded
17:08:13 <Eddi|zuHause3> Wolf01: have multiple instances of "A", and skip that "A" if not empty
17:08:40 <Eddi|zuHause3> 3: if !empty jump 5
17:08:43 <Patrick`> just implement brainfuck
17:09:09 <Patrick`> or don't use star-shaped designs
17:10:30 <Eddi|zuHause3> you understand that, Wolf01?
17:11:06 <Wolf01> [19:06:33] <Wolf01> A->B->empty?A:C->empty?A:D->... <---- the same thing I'm going to do
17:15:18 <Wolf01> is possible at least to colour the orders differently?
17:23:39 <Patrick`> I just discovered that to play new industry types, one also needs a newgrf for new cargo types
17:24:28 <Wolf01> bah, stupid petrol stations... they disappear so quicly to appear again in the previous place
17:24:30 <Patrick`> I don't want 12 dozen new super awesome realistic types of engine made by a bored railway enthusiast, I just want to carry fuel oil
17:27:05 <Wolf01> Petrol stations are the main cause which made me to create star shaped routes... I have 8 road stations around the city, and the petrol stations appear randomly near one of these, to disappear again and apper near another one...
17:27:32 <Wolf01> so I send my vehicles to all the stations
17:27:48 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: smatz * r12690 /trunk/src/tgp.cpp: -Cleanup: remove unused table from tgp.cpp
17:29:16 <Wolf01> when station B doesn't accept gasoline, there is sure another station in the city which accept it, but the oil refinery is really far away of the city
17:29:28 <Patrick`> everyone just seems to assume that everyone else knows what to do - how do I transport the new cargo types?
17:29:38 <Patrick`> I assume I need a grf for new wagons, and I've had a look
17:29:48 <Patrick`> but all the sets are geared towards new engines
17:29:59 <Wolf01> long vehicles, dbset with ecs extension or ukrs
17:30:19 <Wolf01> dbset works with ECS and ukrs with pikka's one
17:31:33 <Patrick`> long vehicles is a separate grf?
17:31:45 <Wolf01> yes, for the road vehicles
17:31:54 <Patrick`> ah right, don't care about them then :)
17:32:05 <Wolf01> you can use ukrs with ecs too, but you'll get some wagons carry the wrong cargo, like tourists on flatbed wagons and steel on coal wagons
17:32:22 <Patrick`> I'll just grab them both
17:32:35 <Patrick`> I'm starting on pbi to kinda ease me into it
17:32:47 <Patrick`> in your opinion, should I just skip straight to full ecs?
17:33:04 <Patrick`> or even just the ecs basic
17:33:53 <Wolf01> I managed to use half ecs after 10 hours of play
17:34:07 <Eddi|zuHause3> <Patrick`> I don't want 12 dozen new super awesome realistic types of engine made by a bored railway enthusiast, I just want to carry fuel oil <- on georges page there is a grf that provides a wagon supplement for the default vehicle set
17:34:47 <Patrick`> Eddi|zuHause3: I feel shamefully noobish for not looking all over that first
17:35:29 <Eddi|zuHause3> the PBI cargos might not fully fit into the ECS scheme
17:35:32 <Ammler> ECS wiki is also very helpful
17:36:12 <Patrick`> sounds like there'll be more headaches, I'll skip straight to ecs
17:36:14 <Ammler> there is a ECS vector with PBI
17:36:29 <Patrick`> unless you think it'll be discouragingly complicated
17:37:24 <Eddi|zuHause3> you don't have to use all ECS vectors simultaneously
17:37:50 <Patrick`> I've just got ecs basic here
17:37:54 <Patrick`> reading the wiki now
17:38:45 <Patrick`> the "ecs default vehicles set" ?
17:40:48 <Eddi|zuHause3> something like that, yes
17:43:17 <Ammler> that set is not recommend by George
17:49:13 <Patrick`> he mentions an extension to dbsetxl but it's not on grfcrawler or the dbset homepage or george's page
17:49:51 <Patrick`> mind you michael blunck's page 404's
17:50:06 <Patrick`> so that's probably it
17:53:59 <Eddi|zuHause3> dbsetxl+extension has the problem that it does not have graphics for the cargos
17:54:46 <Patrick`> right, let's get this party started
17:55:01 <Patrick`> well, I can try out ukrs first
17:55:25 <Patrick`> shame nobody's made sets that just update the wagons but I can always just ignore the new train types
17:57:00 <Patrick`> aaand it's time for dinner and stuff
17:57:10 <Patrick`> but tomorrow! tomorrow I build a *real* industrial challenge
17:57:14 <Patrick`> no more grinding cash
17:58:08 <Ammler> [19:55] <Patrick`> shame nobody's made sets that just update the wagons but I can always just ignore the new train types <-- default ECS Vehicels?
17:58:25 <Patrick`> the ones that everyone warns not to use?
17:58:36 <Patrick`> and won't work with monorail or maglev?
18:00:05 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: glx * r12691 /trunk/src/news_type.h: -Fix (r12459): all company related news displayed the 'company is in trouble' message
18:00:17 <Patrick`> one thing confuses me, how come ttdpatch still exists?
18:00:38 <DaleStan> Because it's better, of course :p
18:01:16 <Patrick`> mind you, the wiki's not been updated for a few years
18:01:20 <Patrick`> and oss is awfully fast
18:01:40 <Patrick`> specifically the hilarious page about "ttd on linux"
18:01:54 <Patrick`> either it's a koreanesque demonstration of censorship
18:01:59 <Patrick`> or it was before openttd existed
18:02:01 <DaleStan> Because it has features that Open doesn't have. Like all the powerful signaling and sufficiently many acceleration settings to satisfy anyone.
18:02:46 <DaleStan> And because you can still play something indistinguishable from TTD with TTDPatch, if you so desire. You can't with Open.
18:03:30 <DaleStan> Or, if you prefer, "indistinguishable, except that it runs on NT/XP OSen".
18:03:31 <Patrick`> DaleStan: I thought there was still a combination of patch settings and terrain generation that made the game behave exactly like the original
18:04:08 <DaleStan> Not in Open. You can't get rid of the landscape toolbar, or the fast-forward button, at least.
18:04:29 <SmatZ> rail conversion, waypoints,...
18:04:39 <SmatZ> drive-through road stops
18:04:51 <SmatZ> pathfinders and much more
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18:05:15 <Rubidium> nor can you get rid of the fact that you do not have to use wine to run it on a non-Windows platform
18:05:27 <DaleStan> Pathfinders, right. OPF for trains is gone too, isn't it?
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18:05:54 <DaleStan> True. That's part of the whole "indistinguishable from TTD" thing.
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18:12:22 <SmatZ> DaleStan: when loading TTDP savegames, should I expect the data hidden in the map array are either at the "old" place or at the "new" place? (old = NE border, new = SW border) even when the game was created in a "new" ttdpatch, then loaded in older ttdpatch and saved again? (so it could have special dat aat both places if it doesn't clear it)
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18:13:54 <DaleStan> I think TTDPatch stopped using the old place long ago. Probably before 2.0, but I don't know for sure.
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18:16:02 <DaleStan> But with data saved in the new area, old versions of TTDPatch won't find it and will probably break anyway. There's a magic number somewhere that indicates whether the data in the new location is valid; I'd just trust that.
18:18:16 <Shiiva> aircraft AI is hilarious : non stop plain crashes :D
18:18:50 <SmatZ> Shiiva: are you talking about the noai branch?
18:19:05 <Shiiva> yeah, i improved the wright ai a little
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18:24:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> improved the efficiency of the crashes?
18:26:44 <Shiiva> no just make them build more plains, and more planes means more crashes
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18:37:19 <Mark> if i change larger_towns in a running game will that take effect immidiatly?
18:38:51 <Rubidium> no, it'll only affect newly created games
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18:59:45 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12692 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Codechange: swap to functions to remove a function declaration.
19:01:48 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12693 /trunk/src/ (window.cpp window_gui.h window_type.h): -Documentation: add some documentation to some window related stuff. Based on a patch by Albert.
19:06:41 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12694 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix: do not call the mouse over callback on already deleted windows.
19:14:08 <Patrick`> I thought the portables was done by some randon guy
19:14:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> i mean the frame around OpenTTD ;)
19:14:21 <yeti_> an asus eee pc? *ducks*
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19:16:44 <KingJ> I played OTTD on a Axim x50v (PDA with 640x480 4" screen) and while it worked, not exactly playable
19:17:18 <ln> Eddi|zuHause2: some GPS device, i believe.
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19:25:26 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12695 /trunk/ (8 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: only allocate window structs when needed. Based on a patch by Alberth.
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19:41:22 <Alberth> Rubidium: Tnx for the improvements, nice! Any specific reason why Window is not a class? (doesn't really matter, I can fix that in a next patch)
19:41:43 <glx> Alberth: all code is C based
19:41:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> class is the same as a struct
19:41:45 <Rubidium> cause there was no need to do it
19:42:06 <glx> and as Eddi|zuHause2 said :)
19:42:58 <glx> not totally the same (members are public by default in struct, private in class)
19:46:37 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12696 /trunk/src/ (openttd.cpp order_cmd.cpp): -Fix: loading ancient savegames could result in invalid orders in order lists with all related problems.
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20:23:08 <Wolf01> nice, 2 years with 8 coal trucks and I repayed the loan :D
20:25:50 <Ammller> someone of you tried Roujins menu jumper?
20:26:23 <Ammller> Wolf01: me is failing at compiling
20:26:49 <Ammller> /home/marcel/bin/ottd/trunk/src/signs_gui.cpp: In function ‘void QuerySignEditWndProc(Window*, WindowEvent*)’:
20:26:50 <Ammller> /home/marcel/bin/ottd/trunk/src/signs_gui.cpp:258: error: jump to case label
20:27:31 <SmatZ> Ammller: what compiler are you using? (just curious :)
20:28:13 <Ammller> gcc version 4.2.1 (SUSE Linux)
20:29:50 <SmatZ> I thought gcc allows that
20:30:16 <Ammller> seems, like Roujin is a windows developer?
20:31:34 <Ammller> do I need to configure something ?
20:32:09 <SmatZ> just create a new label and chage that goto at line 258
20:32:57 <Ammller> well, there are many of that errors
20:37:19 <Wolf01> i got 4 of those errors too with vc80
20:42:17 <Wolf01> move the signs variables declarations above the switches
20:42:53 <Wolf01> seem that declaring variables into switch cases is not funny for the compilers
20:43:23 <Alberth> assuming they are local to one case, you can also put the entire case code in curly brackets
20:44:51 <Alberth> where case code is code from one case to the next
20:48:48 <Digitalfox_> This is strange.. Well I was playing just now a savegame from 1 year ago where I have more than 1000 trains and 500 ships.. And well when using original ship pathfinding is gets slow when i activate YAPF it's getter faster.. Well shouldn't it bee the other way ? :\
20:53:23 <yeti_> when upgrading from rail to monorail, you need to manually replace the trains, right?
20:55:44 <Eddi|zuHause2> Digitalfox_: ship pathfinding speed is heavily dependant on the distances between buoys
20:55:55 <Wolf01> Seem I have a problem with trams, is the serbian tram set not compatible with long vehicles?
20:56:40 <Digitalfox_> So Eddi|zuHause2 if i use lot's of buoys with small distances from eachother what pathfinder should I use? :)
21:01:44 <Eddi|zuHause2> imagine a rail network where each tile has all trackbits on it, that's how water looks to the ship pathfinder
21:02:26 <Rubidium> and don't forget to enable 90 degree turns
21:02:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> OPF is "faster" for ships, because it stops looking after some time
21:02:43 <Ammller> newgrfs don't work in opntitle.dat, I assume?
21:02:57 <Eddi|zuHause2> YAPF tries to go the whole way
21:03:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> so for short distances, YAPF should be slightly faster than OPF
21:03:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> but it does not enforce these short distances
21:04:38 <Rubidium> Ammller: they could work, but there might be serious issues with them
21:05:04 <Digitalfox_> Eddi|zuHause2 for the explanation :)
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21:05:31 <Ammller> ah, I might have used an "old" save which doesn't have settings saved.
21:05:41 <Ammller> I try an other one...
21:06:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> Ammller: newgrfs in the title screen are not recommended
21:06:15 <orudge> OpenTTD support for the Repository is working nicely
21:06:23 <Ammller> :-) yeah, believeable...
21:06:45 <Ammller> I am just watching Roujins patch with coop saves
21:06:49 <Madassasin> owen, could I get my hands on your sound patch, please?
21:07:05 <orudge> I'd have to tidy it up a little bit
21:07:12 <orudge> but I daresay that's not impossible
21:07:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> Ammller: something with town name grfs and dropdown lists needs the newgrf list to be applied to the title screen, which breaks all sorts of things
21:07:56 <Ammller> is town names not only needed for generating the map?
21:08:17 <Madassasin> Hmm, looks like someone forgot some references, MinGW's linker complains about that: win32.o(.text+0x97a):win32.cpp: undefined reference to `_set_error_mode(int)'
21:08:17 <Madassasin> collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
21:08:18 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, but you need to choose the town name generator from the dropdownlist on the titlescreen
21:08:33 <Eddi|zuHause2> for generating this list, the town-newgrfs must be known
21:10:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> ideally, you'd run the title game in a sandbox independent from the to-be-generated game, but that needs a lot of restructuring
21:10:49 <Ammller> possible to relocate the Menu?
21:12:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> i'd like the ability to move the title menu, too
21:12:18 <Ammller> btw: [22:43] <Alberth> assuming they are local to one case, you can also put the entire case code in curly brackets <-- that solved my issues, thanks.
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21:16:19 <Ammller> is it possible, the title save needs a lot less CPU then in game mode?
21:17:44 <SpComb> dih: was it you that had the zip of some of the icons ripped out of OpenTTD?
21:18:17 <Ammller> this jumping mode would also be cool in usual game play
21:18:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> Ammller: you mean if you load the title game and play it, it uses more CPU?
21:19:10 <Ammller> no, I took a coop game which used around 50% and now as title only 20%
21:19:22 <Ammller> but I need to test it further
21:20:08 <Ammller> (with our grfpack of course)
21:22:45 <Ammller> cpu usage was just a thought, not true.
21:26:15 <orudge> the Repository now reads and gets lots of information about OpenTTD games :)
21:26:18 <orudge> as it does for TTDPatch games
21:26:25 <Madassasin> what the, no towns in Romania? :(
21:26:34 <orudge> so when you're browsing the Repository, you will be able to view a full-sized map of the game
21:27:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> what kind of map size is this supposed to be played on?
21:27:39 <Eddi|zuHause2> right, it says that...
21:28:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> sad that you cannot put town information into the heightmap generation
21:28:36 <orudge> town information is there
21:28:41 <orudge> it's just that's done later in the process
21:29:21 <orudge> one can enlarge the maps so it's a bit more readable ;)
21:29:49 <Eddi|zuHause2> i mean the ottd heightmap-to-game converter
21:30:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> so you could e.g. put a towns.txt file next to it, with (Name, Location, Size) triplets in it, and it will automatically place the towns there, instead of random generation
21:31:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> or similar for industries
21:32:19 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause2: there was a thread about it at tt-forums
21:32:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> hm, the code to read ini-files is already there, reading that data should not be that hard to code
21:34:17 <ln> Bjarni: have you taken the ICE to Hamburg yet?
21:35:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> i have only taken ICE trains during my army time, where it was free
21:35:34 <Bjarni> why would I want to do that?
21:35:54 <Eddi|zuHause2> and that only rarely
21:35:55 <Bjarni> I haven't even seen it
21:36:21 <Bjarni> whenever I'm at a station where it stops it's always somewhere else
21:36:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> there was no long-distance connection between my city and the barracs
21:37:49 <Bjarni> so how did you get home?
21:38:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> by a series (meaning 2) of short-distance trains?
21:40:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> there is a train going from Halle to Kassel (and back), which is a short distance "express" train
21:41:10 * Bjarni wonders about taking the doll away from Sacro
21:41:22 <Bjarni> looks like he thinks it's alive and that it's me
21:41:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> the long distance trains from Kassel go either via Erfurt-Leipzig or via Göttingen-Magdeburg
21:41:50 * Bjarni wonders about committing something
21:42:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> between kassel and frankfurt, at the rail line, there are a lot of barracks
21:42:53 <Bjarni> I was expecting a wtf link from Sacro but still
21:43:19 <Bjarni> life sized sex doll o_O
21:43:36 <Bjarni> I don't even want to know how you found that link
21:43:46 <Eddi|zuHause2> you'd not exactly want to be caught selling under-life-sized sex dolls...
21:43:55 <ln> has anyone been to Melsungen?
21:44:07 <Sacro> Bjarni: i just pressed up a few times
21:45:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> doesn't strike me as a particularly important place to go
21:45:46 <ln> probably not, just a sort of nice small town near Kassel.
21:48:41 <Bjarni> Sacro: I bet you ordered one
21:48:58 <Bjarni> the question is... where did you get £3.3k from?
21:49:05 <Digitalfox_> peter1138 enginepool12670.diff fails to compile
21:50:22 <ln> why doesn't google maps show main railroad lines?
21:50:47 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Bjarni
21:50:47 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v peter1138
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21:50:56 <Digitalfox_> peter1138: It gives this error "patching file `src/settings.cpp'
21:50:58 <Digitalfox_> patching file `src/lang/english.txt'
21:50:59 <Digitalfox_> Hunk #1 succeeded at 3302 (offset 1 line).
21:51:01 <Digitalfox_> can't find file to patch at input line 29
21:51:02 <Digitalfox_> Perhaps you used the wrong -p or --strip option?"
21:51:04 <Bjarni> Sacro: I heard a story about a sailor who got an STD on board a ship and he claimed not to be gay and there were only guys on board
21:51:14 <Bjarni> nobody trusted his claim of not doing it
21:51:41 <Bjarni> turned out that sharing a sex doll can be just as dangerous as real women of unknown background
21:53:23 <ln> that's why Bjarni doesn't share his with others.
21:54:14 <Bjarni> 2: I don't feel like something like that
21:54:26 <Bjarni> 3: it might be tricky to explain it to a girlfriend
21:54:35 <Bjarni> 4: it just seems wrong
21:54:40 <Bjarni> 5: it's a waste of money
21:56:29 <Sacro> Bjarni: you don't have to tell her
21:57:24 <Bjarni> Sacro: you give the wrong impression of humanity
21:58:09 <Bjarni> <ln> 3: to a what? <-- girlfriend... that's the thing the heroes in the movies always have
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22:05:36 <ln> Bjarni: when did you last speak english irl?
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22:17:12 <glx> Digitalfox_: using r12670?
22:17:52 <Digitalfox_> But i've tried enginepool 12625 and have the same problem..
22:18:04 <glx> and what is the rev in the diff headers?
22:18:15 <Ammller> Digitalfox_: with file engine_pool, I guess?
22:18:18 <Digitalfox_> I'm using BuidOTTD by the way.. But before it always worked :)
22:18:43 <Digitalfox_> glx 12670 if I'm not mistaken :)
22:19:59 <Digitalfox_> I just select the patch in BuildOTTD and force revision to match the patch ..
22:21:31 <glx> added files are probably not cleaned
22:22:18 <Digitalfox_> glx you mean in my local repository?
22:23:08 <glx> yes, I don't know if buildottd deletes all before patching, or if it just do svn revert
22:24:29 <Digitalfox_> well i just deleted my local repository and after it gets all 12670 source files it does the same :p
22:25:30 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12697 /trunk/src/signs_gui.cpp: -Codechange: give signs_gui.cpp a touch of coding style.
22:28:01 <Ammller> glx, the patch from peter1138 does alter a file called engine_base.cpp, but I don't find that file in svn repo.
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23:12:08 * Chicken would slap Digitalfox_Home, but is not being violent today
23:13:10 <Chicken> openttdcoop needs one person
23:15:00 * Chicken slaps Digitalfox_Home upside da head with a hairy goldfish
23:15:36 <Digitalfox_Home> Theres more people around here you know :p
23:16:18 <Chicken> dont make me slap again
23:19:07 <Digitalfox_Home> Where did I put that red phone with nuclear missile drawing, it would take care of this case :p
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23:24:45 <glx> <Ammller> glx, the patch from peter1138 does alter a file called engine_base.h, but I don't find that file in svn repo. <-- indeed it's a svn copy of engine_type.h
23:29:30 <Ammller> aha, and he didn't commit that yet?
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