IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-04-06
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07:07:44 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12586 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Codechange: do not access an order's refit variables directly.
07:13:57 <Noldo> is there some kind of bounding box information available for a station?
07:16:45 <Rubidium> depots on the kind of bounding box
07:16:52 <Rubidium> in game tiles or visually
07:17:14 <Rubidium> must not be awake yet
07:19:09 <Noldo> struct StationRect, thank you
07:22:38 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12587 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: unduplicate some code in the Unpack*Order functions and move the 'normal' case Pack/Unpack to Order.
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07:49:03 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12588 /trunk/src/ (18 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: do not access the destination of an order directly.
08:01:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> rubidium is into orders today?
08:02:40 <Rubidium> nah, just breaking some patches ;)
08:06:24 <Tefad> patches do things that aren't kosher?
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08:53:33 <Wolf01> hey, something gone wrong with r12580... all my vehicles, trains, ships, aircrafts are stuck in a loop of "enter and exit the stations"
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08:56:29 <Wolf01> mmm no, seem that ships are the only which still work
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09:00:30 <Maedhros> Wolf01: that might be fixed in r12581
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09:50:18 <larsemil> hey. Sdl is fun. why didnt anyone tell me
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11:38:32 <jez> Just watched Total Recall for the first time, freaky
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11:46:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> would you recall (:p) me what that movie was about?
11:48:57 <Wolf01> schwarzenegger on mars
11:52:57 <peter1138> recall you? what language is that?
11:53:13 <peter1138> Wolf01: and a 3rd breast, or something
11:53:35 <peter1138> something about instant terraforming
11:59:47 <Patrick`> I was playing my ottd save last night when I was drunk
12:00:15 <Patrick`> and I did ctrl-clone instead of clone to set up new train stations, so every time I made a new coal pickup I sent every single coal train there
12:02:02 <Patrick`> basically, instead of passenger destinations we need something that emulates the end result but is programmatically simpler.
12:02:45 <Patrick`> currently, if you have half a dozen towns in a line with a train station in each,you make more money passing one train between the two furthest stations and ignoring the ones inbetween. stopping at every single station is amusingly less profitable.
12:02:56 <Patrick`> this needs to be reversed. passenger destinations is one way to do it
12:03:04 <jez> yeah schwarzenegger on mars
12:03:14 <jez> bit too much gratuitous violence, unfortunately
12:03:18 <jez> think that detracted a bit from the storyline
12:03:22 <jez> apart from that cool movie though
12:03:36 <jez> and you dont know whether the whole thing was a memory implanted into him or not, they leave it in suspense
12:08:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> <peter1138> recall you? what language is that? <- it was not supposed to be correct... it was supposed to be "remind me" but with a play on words
12:10:22 <Eddi|zuHause2> schwarzenegger movies have storylines?
12:15:00 <Wolf01> schwarzenegger movies can change between "nice family movie" to "true lies" in a bunch of seconds
12:16:59 <jez> yeah true lies is ok up until they start doing off and shooting people
12:17:08 <jez> then it descends into just another Rambo
12:27:04 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12589 /branches/noai/ (7 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: GetLastError support for AIBridge.
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12:48:31 <Ammler> how do I protect old revisions (0.5.3) from loading a GRF?
12:51:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> by checking the OTTD revision/version from the grf?
12:51:36 <Ammler> thats supported after 0.5.3 :-)
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12:52:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> exactly, and what value does that return before that was introduced?
12:53:11 <Ammler> hmm, since when is "Fatal Error" (stopping loading) impelmented?
12:54:51 <Rubidium> Ammler: see extras/ottd_grf/split/openttd.nfo
12:55:19 <Eddi|zuHause2> you do not necessarily need to generate an error to skip loading the file
12:56:43 <Rubidium> Ammler: extras as in svn://svn.openttd.org/extras
12:57:04 <Ammler> seems nice commented nfo :-)
12:57:51 <Ammler> I have made a real town names grf with around 2k names and get some segmentations errors
12:58:26 <Ammler> there is no size limit for sprites in nfo?
13:05:08 <Rubidium> but if it segfaults, that's bad... maybe glx knows more
13:05:31 <glx> do you know where it segfault?
13:06:08 <Ammler> glx: it segfaults at 0.5.3
13:06:27 <Ammler> but hats not a problem, because that doesn't support New Names anyway
13:06:28 <glx> hmm does 0.5.3 support action F ?
13:06:39 <Ammler> so I just looking to skip it :-)
13:07:39 <Ammler> the nfo Rubidium pointed does help for that
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13:16:52 <Ammler> seems to work fine now, thanks Rubidium. Now I am going to check it with current trunk.
13:17:23 <Ammler> Is it wanted, that a Town Names GRF with same Name replaces the builtin Names?
13:18:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> (Translation: i don't understand that question, can you rephrase that please?)
13:18:49 <Ammler> I made a GRF "Swiss", that is already in the ottd source.
13:19:24 <Ammler> but in the GUI list, you find only one Swiss and if you create a map with that, it takes the Names from GRF
13:20:03 <Ammler> Thats fine with me, but I am not sure, if that is wanted by the devs or just a lucky accident :-)
13:20:04 <Eddi|zuHause2> it would be very confusing to have two "Swiss" entries
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13:26:15 <peter1138> maybe all GRF town names should be suffixed with (NewGRF) or similar)
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13:27:33 <Ammler> peter1138: I like the idea with replacing
13:27:47 <peter1138> why did you bring it up then? :p
13:27:47 <Ammler> you can disable the GRF if you want the original
13:28:46 <Ammler> I didn't test, if that also has influence to the name in the CFG
13:30:21 <Ammler> and if you haven't translated info a special language, you have still both
13:30:49 <Ammler> (Swiss and Suiçe or whater ever)
13:31:42 <Ammler> I saw, glx added (GRF) at his examples.
13:32:12 <Forked> I really should learn to code.. but gta4 is out soon :\
13:32:20 <Forked> oh I mean.. err.. meep meep
13:33:47 <Ammler> can I see somehow easy, how many towns are on a map (2048²)
13:39:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> new game, many towns, will show a counter xxx/yyyy generated
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13:45:59 <jez> weekend seems to have disappeared quickly again
13:53:07 <Alberth> Anybody else experiencing crashes with r12588?
13:55:07 <SmatZ> Alberth: what kind of crashes?
13:55:09 <Alberth> oldpool.h:125: T* OldMemoryPool<T>::Get(uint) const [with T = Station]: Assertion `index < this->GetSize()' failed.
13:55:31 <Ammler> [15:39] <Eddi|zuHause2> new game, many towns, will show a counter xxx/yyyy generated <-- only if there are so many available
13:56:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> what do you mean with "available"?
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13:56:52 <SmatZ> seems to happen with AI
13:57:55 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause2: if a grf has only about 100 Names but it likes to generate about 1000 Names, the GUI says 1000 Names generated
13:58:05 <Ammler> but you only have those 100 Names
13:58:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> you can't easily calculate the number of possible combinations, because you cannot filter duplicates
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13:59:55 <Ammler> I was just wondering, if there is possibility _after_ generating, how many towns are on the map
14:00:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> it should be easy code wise, but the town list only shows the total population, afaik
14:00:58 <Ammler> I have the feeling, I don't get all my Names, something with the probablity is wrong...
14:01:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> after you get close to saturation, the probability to find a new name is quite low
14:02:38 <Ammler> then it will skipped not repeated?
14:02:54 <Ammler> I thought it tries an other time
14:03:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> you pull from the urn with putting back (in case you have multiple parts, the same part may be used again to form another combination)
14:03:52 <Eddi|zuHause2> if you hit a combination that forms a duplicate, you throw it away and try again
14:03:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> but you stop after a few tries
14:04:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> within these tries, you might not find that last possible unused combination
14:04:34 <Ammler> that must be my problem...
14:04:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> so it will not appear in the game
14:04:41 <Ammler> I have NO combinations
14:04:56 <Ammler> only a list with real names
14:05:04 <Eddi|zuHause2> you have combinations with 1 element each
14:05:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> but the game is probably not optimised for this
14:05:56 <Ammler> so you need about 20k possibilities to reach 1k Names
14:06:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> no... definitely not...
14:07:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> mathmatical experiment
14:07:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> say you have a list of 1000 names
14:07:39 <Eddi|zuHause2> and try to generate 100 towns, and get a combination once for each town
14:07:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> first town is 0% chance to hit an existing name
14:08:04 <Eddi|zuHause2> second town is 0.1% for an existing name
14:08:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> third town is 0.2% for an existing name
14:08:44 <Eddi|zuHause2> sum up these probabilities, and you'll get an expected value for the number of "missed out" towns
14:08:49 <Ammler> then I have to adjust probablity better, I feat :/
14:10:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> assume this probably rises linearly with the number of towns you generated, then the sum will rise with the square of that number
14:11:22 <Eddi|zuHause2> so the closer you get to the maximum number of names, it gets almost impossible to find a new name
14:12:31 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12590 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_airport.cpp ai_bridge.cpp ai_company.cpp ai_error.hpp): [NoAI] -Add: EnforcePrecondition macro to make code much better readable.
14:12:39 <Eddi|zuHause2> but 0/1000+1/1000+2/1000+...+100/1000=5050/1000, so of the first 100 towns, roughly 5 towns don't get a new name
14:12:47 <Eddi|zuHause2> so you end up with 95 towns
14:13:40 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause2: I guess so...
14:14:15 <Ammler> I set the probablity to the well known towns to high, so they was choosen too much
14:14:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, my example was assuming even distribution
14:15:23 <Eddi|zuHause2> the more you divert from that, the less towns you end up with
14:15:52 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause2: it tries a few times per 'town' in generated towns
14:16:01 <Rubidium> with different location and name iirc
14:16:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, i said that, i just simplified it for the example
14:17:47 <Ammler> Rubidium: I had some strange results at the beginning as I set the range of probablity to 32bits, most time only one town was generated
14:18:06 <Ammler> OzTransLtd said something simular for CaNames
14:18:49 <Ammler> now, I summarized all town probablity and use only the needed probablity bits, seems to work
14:20:13 <Ammler> OzTrans coded canames for both plattforms splitted, he didn't use intermediate sprites.
14:27:55 <Alberth> SmatZ: I think I got the problem. In aircraft_cmd.cpp, near line 709: v->current_order.GetDestination()=65535
14:28:27 <Alberth> looks a bit too suspicious :)
14:28:45 <SmatZ> 65535 is 0xFFFF, that is INVALID_ORDER
14:28:59 <SmatZ> or something INVALID :)
14:29:28 <SmatZ> Rubidium did changes there today, he will know how to fix it :)
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14:50:50 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: smatz * r12591 /trunk/src/ (command.cpp command_type.h): -Codechange: move CommandCost accessors to header file, 8kB of binary size saved
14:50:58 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12592 /trunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r12580): aircraft's go-to-depot handling is a mess, which assumes destination to be a station even when it did not set a destination yet.
15:09:57 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12593 /trunk/src/ (17 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: hide Order's flags in most of the code.
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15:43:37 <Alberth> (10:59:33 AM) Maedhros: Wolf01: that might be fixed in r12581 <--- in r12593, it is not solved.
15:44:24 <Alberth> The crash on GetDestination() is solved though. Tnx Rubidium
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16:25:21 <Mark> is it not kind of weird owned-land-signs of competitors can be bridged?
16:25:32 <Mark> hmm channel seems pretty in-active
16:37:37 <edeca> Well.. they own the square, not the sky too! :)
16:49:14 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: smatz * r12594 /trunk/src/ (driver.cpp driver.h): -Codechange: move large functions from driver.h to driver.cpp to reduce binary size and compile time
17:08:44 <amix> ok. want to report a quiting bug in the morphos version of openttd.
17:08:47 <amix> ***Unfreed signals 00800000!
17:09:27 <amix> he claims its not on his side ;p
17:10:55 <Rubidium> he's the only one that might be able to fix it because he has a) knowledge of MorphOS and b) MorphOS (or so I hope)
17:12:25 <amix> but he says its got to do with openttd, not the morphos version as ive understood it
17:13:41 <Rubidium> if it is OpenTTD you should be able to reproduce it on non-MorphOS
17:14:15 <Rubidium> as long as I do not hear about the same bug from someone running non-MorphOS, the only assumption I can make is that it has be something MorphOS specific
17:15:53 <Rubidium> ah, it seems like it's something with SDL
17:22:41 <edeca> Argh, why doesn't a station near a power station accept oil (newgrf with ECS)
17:24:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> ECS does not make all power plants accept oil
17:25:11 <Rubidium> the library used for graphics stuff
17:27:53 <edeca> Eddi|zuHause2: Ar, annoying. It has a queue space for it, that's all
17:27:53 <Rubidium> or it isn't as chatty with other versions
17:29:33 <Rubidium> amix: anyhow, exiting an application means: OS please clean up my mess because you know what I took *and* because you have to do it in case other applications do not clean up everything
17:30:02 <Rubidium> closing everything 'nicely' from OpenTTD would cause the closing of OpenTTD take a bit longer and then the OS has to recheck everything anyways
17:30:34 <amix> just that tokai dosent like bugs i guess
17:32:16 <Rubidium> the support for MorphOS at the moment is so messy that it's not even likely that there'll be a 0.7.0 version for MorphOS, unless MorphOS releases a newer compiler and such.
17:33:14 <Rubidium> (read: quite horrible hacks are currently done to make MorphOS create a working binary, but that's likely not enough to get 0.7.0 running based on what might go into 0.7.0)
17:33:56 <edeca> ECS definitely make the game harder :)
17:35:04 <edeca> I can usually break even in a few years and make millions.. ECS I am running at about 2:1 profit:cost
17:35:44 <amix> Rubidium: new graphics stuff into 0.7.0 ?
17:36:38 <Rubidium> amix: no, just code cleanups (use of templates that gcc 2.95 doesn't understand)
17:36:45 <Rubidium> and NoAI is a nice example of that
17:36:51 <Rubidium> won't compile with gcc 2.95
17:37:22 <edeca> That's a very old GCC though :)
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17:37:47 <Rubidium> well, that's the whole problems with MorphOS
17:39:17 <amix> what version of gcc does openttd need?
17:39:41 <Rubidium> for NoAI I guess 3.3+
17:40:00 <amix> i dont know what morphos 2.0 will support
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17:42:21 <amix> Rubidium: without sounding as a morphos fanboy or anything like that. to be honest, ive never experienced better gameplay on other oses. morphos version seems to be the most stable version ive tried of winxp, osx and morphos.
17:46:31 <Sacro> do i need a ppc for morphos?
17:46:57 <amix> Efika or Pegasos, PegasosII
17:47:37 <amix> but this is something tokai knows more about
17:47:44 <amix> as he is a morphos developer
17:48:45 <Rubidium> there hasn't even been any MorphOS related chatter on the gcc website for more than 3.5 years
17:49:07 <Rubidium> so not quite encouraging for a gcc >= 3 for MorphOS
17:50:17 <Rubidium> and the MorphOS website(s) aren't exactly user friendly
17:50:47 <amix> morphos people kinda keep things silent i guess
17:54:22 <Rubidium> amix: that site sucks; there are exactly 0 projects, a forum with three posts in the last 2 years, there is exactly 1 development tool (sounds a little scarce), the 'library' has a 50% chance of showing empty 'categories' and the other 50% has 1-3 posts from before october 2003
17:56:07 <amix> and you have www.aminet.net
17:56:17 <amix> which is one of worlds biggest file archives
17:57:51 <Rubidium> wow... signs of a gcc 4
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17:59:03 <amix> Rubidium: when mos2.0 releases. people will come back to the platform
17:59:21 <amix> as it is now, its pretty community driven more or less
17:59:59 <Bjarni> in order to at least have a chance it has to have a fully working GCC 4
18:00:10 <Bjarni> otherwise porting is too hard
18:00:35 <Rubidium> Bjarni: why do you promise that it is portable?
18:00:36 <Bjarni> and then the platform will lack apps
18:01:12 <Rubidium> porting is too hard != porting is impossible
18:02:43 <Patrick`> I thought openttd was already on morphos
18:03:08 <Rubidium> Patrick`: it is, but it's a hack to get it working
18:03:20 <Patrick`> since the switch to c++ or always?
18:03:33 <Rubidium> and with the current state of affairs their ancient compiler won't handle NoAI
18:04:00 <Patrick`> would it be hard to write python bindings for noAI?
18:04:04 <Rubidium> hacks are since C++ (IIRC)
18:04:08 <Patrick`> I know that's totally retarded because python's so slow
18:04:14 <Patrick`> but it would be nice to hack about a bit
18:04:52 <Rubidium> Patrick`: I've got no idea
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20:58:49 <thgergo> what the hell is that?
21:00:24 <Rubidium> probably due to a leaking sewer pipe
21:01:08 <Wolf01> I have one of these under my house, tomorrow I might not me here O_O
21:01:47 <Sacro> Wolf01: meh, you'll be fine
21:03:36 <Wolf01> think about how much time you take to dig that hole with ordinary machinery... just forget a leak and the water does it for you :P
21:04:43 <Wolf01> and now... they'll fill it?
21:05:12 <Digitalfox> How can a Hole of that size happen without people noticing it days before? Like little holes, any shaking, etc.. ?? :\
21:05:49 <Digitalfox> And where does the land go?
21:06:20 <Wolf01> the water digs out the land, transform it to sand and carry it to the sea
21:06:33 <Digitalfox> It's amazing the size of it, I can't even see the end of it :|
21:07:08 <Digitalfox> But wolf01 are there any river below that hole?
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21:07:28 <Digitalfox> It's just so many land it has to take :\
21:07:59 <Wolf01> maybe not, as Rubidium said is enough a leak on a pipe... larger is the pipe, quick is the work of the water
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21:09:56 <Rubidium> Digitalfox: it just takes very long before the hole is so big that the ground above the hole is so weak that it collapse. In that long period a lot of soil can be moved by a leaking sewer pipe.
21:11:41 <Wolf01> "very long", not so many years, if the rock is weak, the water consume it quickly enough to have such hole in 10 years
21:13:19 <Digitalfox> And when a hole of that size appears can it be filled with land?
21:15:09 <Wolf01> maybe... but I won't build anything over it
21:17:36 <Wolf01> (I think they used to fill it with asbest, plutonium, scrap cars, dead livestock and desaparecidos)
21:18:46 <sHELL> kinda suprising it does not cave in or something
21:19:15 <sHELL> yes.. but the surounding area
21:19:43 <sHELL> I mean, cave in any further
21:24:26 <Wolf01> doesn't that is enough?
21:26:28 <sHELL> hmmm gues the earth is a bit diffrent then what I am used to
21:27:20 <sHELL> here its always sand... if there would be a hole in my hometown, the entire town would disapear because verything would cave in until its leveld
21:28:06 <Wolf01> ok, seem that I can't put two words together in italian too
21:30:23 <Sacro> 4. spelen. geen crack nodig. <- thoughts?
21:33:10 <Rubidium> should I express them directly?
21:34:18 <Sacro> i think it says "4. play. no crack needed."
21:36:04 <Rubidium> another of Sacro's suggestive sentences...
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21:54:36 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12595 /trunk/src/ (order_base.h order_cmd.cpp order_gui.cpp): -Codechange: hide Order's flags in the last few cases.
22:01:05 <Eddi|zuHause> "4. spielen, kein crack nötig." ... it's not THAT hard to translate...
22:08:21 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: well i was fine up until nötig
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22:14:59 <ln> where is this world going if a second generation fascist cannot have a nazi-themed orgy without losing his job?
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22:32:33 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12596 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 2 dirs): -Feature: show what cargos a station could be supplied with. Patch by Roujin.
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22:52:08 <Zuu> Nice to see that patch hit trunk :)
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23:08:02 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12597 /branches/noai/ (133 files in 12 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r12501:12596.
23:42:22 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12598 /branches/ (MiniIN/ cargo-packets/ coopetition/ map/ mempool/): [Several] -Remove some obsolete and (thus) stale branches.
23:44:06 *** Osai is now known as Osai^zZz
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23:49:58 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: smatz * r12599 /trunk/ (16 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: force AllocateSafeRaw() to be linked to simplify compiler's decisions about inlining
23:50:45 <SmatZ> Ammler: what was the meaning of coopetition?
23:51:25 <SmatZ> to include some patches for openttdcoop?
23:54:36 <Ammler> I guess, there is only the branch
23:54:47 <Ammler> Truelight had some patches
23:55:02 <Eddi|zuHause> ln: next thing you start talking about second generation pedophiles or something... you definitely deserve a big slap for this
23:57:21 <Ammler> SmatZ: the date of creating the branch was almost same as death of it
23:57:40 <Ammler> but the idea is still cool :-)
23:58:11 <Ammler> some guys also programmed a ladder system
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