IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-03-31
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00:06:29 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12489 /trunk/src/ (54 files in 5 dirs): -Codechange: split station.h into station_base.h and station_func.h.
00:17:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12490 /trunk/src/ (47 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: rename engine.h to engine_func.h and remove unneeded inclusions of engine.h and/or replace them with engine_type.h.
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06:32:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12491 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (42 files):
06:32:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Documentation: made parts of the comments more uniform (@file header and class header)
06:32:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Documentation: fixed the order of functions: SetNN before GetNN, Build after Set/Get, Remove after Build. This makes reading the docs more easy
06:32:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Documentation: Removed unneeded comments which were direct copy/paste all over the place
06:32:44 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Fix: missing $Id$ tags
06:33:00 *** Xeryus|bnc is now known as XeryusTC
06:33:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12492 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_tile.hpp ai_vehiclelist.hpp): [NoAI] -Fix: missing propset
06:37:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12493 /branches/noai/ (9 files in 4 dirs): [NoAI] -Remove [API CHANGE]: AIPathFinder should never been part of this API (more like a contrib or extended something)
06:37:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12494 /branches/noai/projects/ (openttd_vs80.vcproj openttd_vs90.vcproj): [NoAI] -Fix r12493: update MSVC project files when removing files
06:42:38 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12495 /trunk/src/ (18 files): -Codechange: reduce the dependency on newgrf_station.h (especially because newgrf_station.h includes a lot of stuff).
06:45:55 <DorpsGek> Celestar: Open Bugs: 30; Not assigned: 22; Closed this week: 7; Opened this week: 17
06:46:11 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12496 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (37 files):
06:46:11 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Documentation: give the .cpp files a nice uniform format too
06:46:11 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Fix: fixed the last missing $Id$ and propset
06:49:13 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12497 /branches/noai/ (7 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Change [API CHANGE]: AIMap.DemolishTile -> AITile.DemolishTile (that makes much more sense, doesn't it? ;))
06:49:25 <Celestar> why does a "sound cracking" bug have "high" severity?
06:50:44 <Patrick`> because it actually affects something the end-user experiences?
06:51:20 <peter1138> because users think their bug is most important
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06:58:41 <Rubidium> Celestar: new bugs, most the cause of the RC but none of them are actually interesting :(
07:03:47 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12498 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Codechange: bring a little 'order' to openttd.cpp's includes and do not 'define' VARDEF for files that do not have them anymore.
07:04:14 <peter1138> Just remove all VARDEFs!
07:04:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> what's a VARDEF anyway?
07:04:55 <Rubidium> that's the final plan, but this is just preventing people from adding VARDEFs to most of the code-base
07:05:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> and what's bad about laziness ;)
07:06:03 <Celestar> variable definitions shouldn't be in headers.
07:06:20 <Celestar> whatever ... /me goes to work
07:11:30 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12499 /trunk/ (4 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: some coding style tweaks for network_internal.h.
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07:21:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12500 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (6 files): [NoAI] -Documentation: many comment changes, mostly Capitals and lines end with a dot. Makes doxygen look pretty :)
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07:26:08 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12501 /trunk/ (16 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: split signs.h.
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07:27:10 <Celestar> you're really pissed at the state of the header files aren't you?
07:27:41 <Celestar> not without reason ;)
07:27:49 * peter1138 ponders testing the build time now
07:29:19 * Celestar wonders whether Rubidium will help him with syncing NewGRF_ports now ;)
07:29:31 <Celestar> peter1138: is it me or did the build time get out of hand?
07:29:59 <peter1138> it did, not helped by moving to c++ but it got worse after that
07:30:27 <Celestar> peter1138: debug or no debug? ;)
07:30:28 <ln> just buy 4-core machines, people
07:30:30 <Rubidium> some templates are pretty heavy
07:30:51 <peter1138> but i like my 8 year old machine, ln
07:31:02 <caladan> hmm, use some distcc? :D
07:31:18 <Celestar> man ... LHR's terminal 5 is really a disaster, right? ;)
07:31:43 <Rubidium> I just thought they continued to improve their record
07:32:14 <Celestar> Rubidium: yeah, apart from the fact that they ask people not to bring luggage because the luggage system doesn't work, everything else is ok.
07:32:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> Celestar: well, i haven't been to that many airports
07:32:58 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause2: Heathrow sucks. Ass.
07:33:19 <Celestar> it's _almost_ as bad as Charles-de-Gaulle
07:34:00 <caladan> and not as bad as the one in Warsaw ;-)
07:34:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> what are the criteria for judging the suckiness of an airport?
07:34:56 <Rubidium> number of lost pieces of luggage a minute and number of canceled flight per minute being more than resp. 50 and 1?
07:35:18 <peter1138> Monty Python already did a song about it...
07:35:37 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, and you already have a patch for it ;)
07:35:39 <peter1138> # And I'm worried about the baggage retrieval system they've got at Heathrow
07:36:04 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause2: lost luggage, delays, cancellations, signage, roofs falling on passengers....
07:36:34 <Celestar> :o 3:39 for building ottd
07:37:16 <Celestar> caladan: _nothing_ sucks as much as does LHR or CDG. well ... JFK maybe
07:37:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> i've been to munich airport some 10 years ago
07:38:12 <caladan> Celestar: you see, the airport in warsaw is almost in the center of city. no way to get there in rush hours, and its overcrowded :]
07:38:14 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12502 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_engine.hpp ai_industry.hpp ai_map.hpp ai_marine.hpp): [NoAI] -Documentation: even more comment consistancy
07:38:18 <Celestar> 158.721u 16.273s 3:39.05 79.8% 0+0k 0+0io 14pf+0w
07:39:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> i shoul have timed svn up first ;)
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07:40:14 * Celestar wonders which part of the compilation is so slow :S
07:40:44 <Eddi|zuHause2> but yapf didn't really change
07:43:25 <Rubidium> Celestar: yes, it's a lot but reducing the size (and thus dependency on other headers) of the headers helps quite a bit in compile time
07:44:23 <Celestar> I was just wondering ;)
07:45:53 <Rubidium> Celestar, about NewGRF_ports: I've quite given up on that one
07:46:26 <Celestar> Rubidium: the syncing?
07:46:45 <Rubidium> it getting finished within reasonable time
07:46:53 <Celestar> Rubidium: it basically is finished ;)
07:47:08 <Celestar> we need one more newgrf features (station animation) and it's done.
07:47:11 <Celestar> grep -c "^#include" * | awk -F: '{print $2 " " $1}' | sort -n | tail -3
07:47:11 <Rubidium> Celestar: no it is NOT
07:47:39 <Celestar> Rubidium: what's missing?
07:47:40 <Rubidium> Celestar: and they're all needed -> ergo openttd.cpp has become one big mess
07:47:59 <Rubidium> Celestar: it is one big copy-paste which is already unmaintainable
07:48:15 <Rubidium> furthermore there are todos and warnings all over the place
07:48:23 <Celestar> Rubidium: I'll see through the newgrf_port code and see what can be done.
07:48:26 <Rubidium> coding style suck as much as T5
07:48:41 <Celestar> so you suggest starting over?
07:48:57 <Rubidium> and RichK couldn't be 'bothered' about coding style because he first wanted to get it working
07:49:14 <Rubidium> that reminds me of TGP which also took a few months of work after he said it was finished
07:49:32 <Eddi|zuHause2> i have voiced my concern about "first get it working" before...
07:50:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> only i have no voice
07:50:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> so nobody listens ;)
07:50:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12503 /branches/noai/ (140 files in 7 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r12461:12501.
07:51:13 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause2: only RichK doesn't listen
07:51:31 <Celestar> Rubidium: so .. start over and implement the features in an orderly style?
07:51:51 <Rubidium> Celestar: and RichK's last episode doesn't encourage me to continue with his work either.
07:56:10 <Rubidium> he basically said that we didn't plan ahead because we didn't add much unused free bytes to the map in one go
07:58:35 <Celestar> what do we need that 1 bit for?
07:58:55 <Rubidium> for his 'all climate world map' idea
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07:59:26 <Rubidium> but that isn't the problem, it's just that he blames us for trying to keep the savegame file as small as possible with the current features
08:00:19 <Eddi|zuHause2> i think he missed the point that the extension of the map array was not meant to be static, but that it can easily be extended further if necessary
08:08:11 <Celestar> Rubidium: I'll try to re-implement, k?
08:08:42 <peter1138> most of it just station code anyway
08:09:05 <Celestar> peter1138: will you help? ;)
08:09:26 <Rubidium> Celestar: better get station anims working first :)
08:10:00 * peter1138 coughs at his patch
08:10:02 <Celestar> good point. peter1138 has it working? ;)
08:11:08 <peter1138> as in, probably but not completely tested
08:11:14 <peter1138> and some triggers are not in place
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08:23:38 <amix> just want you to know that SDL is now ported to symbian mobiles
08:23:56 <amix> openttd on Nokia E90 would be great!
08:25:00 <Celestar> amix: what's the display size on that device?
08:25:09 <Trond> is the big screenshot option broken, or is it just that my system cannot handle the huge png/bmp files?
08:25:22 <Rubidium> Trond: broken in what manner?
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08:25:39 <Trond> broken in the manner that I get a file I cannot open...
08:25:44 <Rubidium> amix: AFAIK there's already a symbian port somewhere
08:26:07 <Phantasm> How well does it run? As long as you don't play bigger maps than 64x64? ;P
08:26:08 <Rubidium> then you most liky do not have enough memory
08:26:41 <Trond> 2gb isnt enough for a 600mb file?
08:26:57 <Trond> the files come out around 600mb :P
08:27:10 <Rubidium> Trond: not when it's highly compressed and your view is lame enough to uncompress it in memory
08:27:11 <Gekz> Phantasm: I ran OpenTTD on my Palm TX
08:27:25 <Gekz> do not use the new ai >_>
08:27:36 <Trond> my view? meaning the app I use?
08:28:31 <Rubidium> well, it should work on E60
08:28:34 <amix> openttd on e90 would be great
08:28:50 <Celestar> amix: that should be enough :)
08:28:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> i have had problems with big png files independent from ottd
08:29:04 <amix> E90 got 128mb internal mem
08:29:29 <Phantasm> Out of which about 80 MB is free after the OS and stuff.
08:29:47 <Trond> ok eddi, I guess I'll try with a smaller map and see if that works... I tried open them with irfanview, paintshoppro, paint...
08:30:03 <Phantasm> amix: 128 MB out of which the OS uses about 50 MB.
08:30:34 <amix> Celestar: well.. lots of programs is installed on internal mem
08:30:38 <Rubidium> Trond: what size map did you screendump by the way?
08:31:07 <amix> make use of the memcard would be nice
08:31:10 <Phantasm> amix: Don't talk about memory when refering to storage space.
08:31:35 <amix> we store stuff in ram disk
08:31:40 <Rubidium> @openttd calc 1024x32x2048x64/1024
08:31:47 <Rubidium> @calc 1024x32x2048x64/1024
08:31:47 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: Error: invalid syntax (line 1)
08:31:55 <Rubidium> @calc 1024*32*2048*64/1024
08:32:13 <Rubidium> so it'd just need 4 GB to uncompress the png
08:32:44 <Phantasm> E90 got 256 MB of NAND that allows a max of 128 MB user storage.. It has 128 MB of SDRAM memory of which about 80 MB is free after OS and such.. Upto 4 GB MicroSD card is officially supported.
08:32:45 <Rubidium> and that means that only 64 bits binaries can open the png 'the lame way'
08:32:52 <Trond> that explains it I guess, thanks rubidium :)
08:33:13 <Trond> what programs does not open it the lame way then? :D
08:33:44 <amix> Phantasm: then symbian supports virtualmem i guess
08:33:56 <amix> since quake 2 requires a lot
08:34:08 <mrfrenzy> ottd runs really nice on sony ericsson M600i, BUT, the small screen makes it impossible to play
08:34:13 <Phantasm> I'm sure symbian port of Q2 won't require more than 80 MB.
08:34:29 <Phantasm> Does the symbian port of Q2 run on say E70?
08:35:29 <amix> Phantasm: openttd could use of 3D to make openttd run faster also
08:35:37 <Rubidium> Trond: no idea, but maybe some of the command line conversion tools
08:35:53 <Rubidium> amix: please provide proof for that statement
08:35:58 <Phantasm> 25-30 MB of free RAM for symbian Q2.
08:36:09 <amix> Rubidium: what statement?
08:36:15 <Phantasm> Some more for hardware renderer.
08:36:22 <peter1138> 10-20MB RAM is enough for openttd
08:36:25 <Rubidium> amix: that 3D make openttd run faster
08:36:58 <amix> same with amiga emulator
08:37:06 <amix> with gl, it renders faster
08:37:09 <Phantasm> Software rendering uses the CPU, while hardware rendering uses the GPU more or less.
08:37:30 <Phantasm> So, using hardware rendering, more of the CPU should be free for other stuff.
08:38:18 * Rubidium wonders whether gl can handle 10.000+ textures, especially on a symbian
08:39:00 <amix> well, e90 got wlan, hsdpa support. playing openttd on it would be great. a neat feature for it would be keymapping offcourse. build with one key, move arround with others. in that way, a mobile version would be nice
08:39:03 <Rubidium> or even *many* more when you have many NewGRFs loaded
08:41:01 <amix> duke nukem 3d is now out also
08:42:08 <amix> Phantasm: i am using morphos, macosx, symbian and windows
08:42:35 <amix> i love morphos, idore macosx, use symbian, play in windows
08:42:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12504 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (9 files): [NoAI] -Documentation: the last few files which now are consistent in their comments (anyway, so I hope :))
08:43:46 <Phantasm> amix: Which windows?
08:44:59 <Phantasm> You should use 2003 or 2008 server as workstation.
08:45:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12505 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (7 files): [NoAI] -Documentation: still forgot some files ;) (minor stuff, capitals mostly)
08:45:48 <Rubidium> hmm... 2008 server... oh, lets add a big fat 3D graphics card to the requirements of our server software
08:45:51 <Celestar> you should use a proper OS as a workstation.
08:45:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> Gekz: "-ez" and "tu" don't really match
08:45:59 <amix> Phantasm: i use morphos 99% of the time
08:46:05 <Rubidium> because maybe you want to play CounterStrike on your server
08:46:06 <Celestar> Rubidium: yeah. possibly Quad SLI so that the system becomes stable.
08:46:08 <Phantasm> Rubidium: There is also server core for 2008 server that has no GUI.
08:46:32 <Celestar> there are also OSes that actually WORK as a server.
08:46:33 <Phantasm> Only command line interface.
08:46:41 <Gekz> Eddi|zuHause2: I fail grammar in frenfh
08:46:52 <Phantasm> Not that I would use windows * server as server.
08:47:10 <Rubidium> Phantasm: and you think that the gui-less server gets used? Really...?
08:47:53 <Phantasm> Rubidium: Prolly not.. But I don't think it needs much of a video card to work even with gui. All aero and such are disabled by default..
08:48:01 <Rubidium> oh... the boss doesn't pay my: how to use the keyboard bootcamp course of 14 days with Microsoft, well, then add the big fat 3D card to the server
08:48:33 * Celestar is running SLES10 on all servers
08:48:48 <Celestar> and non-Windows ans non-linux OSes on firewalls
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08:48:55 <Phantasm> But for windows workstation, 2008 server is like vista without all the bloat and such (you can even have it without windows media player).. And 2003 server is like xp.
08:50:51 <Maedhros> Gekz: "thyself" refers to the person you're talking to :p
08:52:34 <Rubidium> hmm... wonders how much 'no-GUI' is when one is being able to play solitaire
08:53:16 <Phantasm> Rubidium: I don't think one can play solitaire on server core install.
08:53:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> i'm sure there are aalib based X servers ;)
08:54:52 <Celestar> "(And that's including the 2 reboots, hardware detection, and everything!)"
08:55:00 <Celestar> why the FUCK does an installation need 2 reboots?!
08:55:22 <Maedhros> "The thing is lean and mean, and can run very well in just half a gig of RAM"
08:55:42 * Celestar wonders why they don't even pack a proper editor :S
08:55:51 <Phantasm> Half a gig of ram and no swap and you can't start notepad on vista. ;P
08:55:54 <Eddi|zuHause2> windows always needed two reboots
08:56:07 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause2: how many kernels does it have?!
08:56:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> one after it set up the installation system, and one after it configured the hardware
08:57:01 * peter1138 ponders getting a Q6600 and clocking it at 3GHz
08:57:11 <Phantasm> peter1138: Why only 3?
08:57:21 <Phantasm> And if you want 60% the heat, get Q9450.
08:57:25 <peter1138> because that's the safest overclock, heh
08:57:26 <Phantasm> Those are properly available now.
08:57:47 <Phantasm> Safest... Any overclock is safe IF you test it is safe.. Nothing is safe before you test it.
08:57:52 <Phantasm> Not even default clock.
08:58:20 <Phantasm> Q9450 might not overclock that much though..
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09:02:45 <peter1138> Q9450 costs considerably more than the Q6600
09:03:40 <peter1138> and as you say, as it already has a 1333 FSB, it won't overclock so well
09:03:59 <Phantasm> FSB won't matter if you get suitable motherboard.
09:04:01 <peter1138> might just stick with the E8400
09:04:15 <Phantasm> Celestar: And half the L2?
09:04:38 <peter1138> One core is enough for ottd, so... ;)
09:04:50 <Celestar> Phantasm: it's faster than the Q6600
09:05:02 <peter1138> Q6600 @ 3GHz is fast ;)
09:05:37 <Phantasm> Celestar: I'm actually not sure about that.
09:05:37 * Celestar doesn't like overclocking
09:05:46 <Celestar> Phantasm: in every review it is
09:05:50 <peter1138> hence why i will probably stick to the E8400
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09:07:52 <Phantasm> If not, then perhaps Q6600 is best cheap one for OC.. But otherwise Q9* are better quads as they only produce about 60% the heat.
09:08:35 <Celestar> Phantasm: and are faster clock-for-clock. not much, but a little
09:08:43 <Celestar> and the Q9300 seems to go 3.2-3.4 on air ...
09:08:54 <Phantasm> Nothing special then.
09:09:05 <Phantasm> About same for Q9450... Effectively not worth the effort.
09:09:08 <peter1138> 2.5 -> 3.4 is quite a lot
09:10:08 <amix> you know where the symbian build is?
09:10:16 <amix> i would love to be a betatester
09:10:18 <peter1138> Hmm, E8400, £124.99, Q6600, £125
09:10:37 <Phantasm> I won't bother trying to OC Q9450.. Even if it may go to 3-3.4 GHz, the OC is so small it is not worth the more expensive mobo etc and all the effort.
09:10:42 <amix> ive been betatester for wirelessirc, delfmpeg etc
09:11:43 <Phantasm> For OC to be worth trying, it would take about 30% guaranteed OC without voltage raise.
09:12:19 <Phantasm> Some OC tests for Q9450 have used quite a lot of extra voltage to achieve the OC and as such it easily gets out of the quiet comp..
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09:13:10 <Phantasm> PSU starts to make too much noise when the CPU eats too much power (along with 3D card and all the other stuff).
09:13:55 <Celestar> Phantasm: page 4 and 5 are interesting as well (vs 6600 and vs 8500)
09:15:38 <peter1138> Phantasm: that's the point, the Q6600 does not need a more expensive board to overclock, as even the cheap ones do an FSB faster than the CPU
09:16:04 * peter1138 underclocks his Athlon XP 2000+ to 1250MHz atm
09:16:27 <Phantasm> Yep, that is why I don't bother trying to OC Q9450.. And I ordered it because of the less heat than Q6600.
09:17:34 <Phantasm> My current one is 2.5 GHz opteron 165 (1.8 GHz normally).
09:19:09 <Phantasm> Celestar: The OCs done there make the power consumption go havoc.
09:19:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> who remembers the days when 25MHz was a high end PC, and they had "turbo" buttons to downclock them?
09:20:15 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause2: I remember my first C64 ....
09:20:24 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12506 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/Doxyfile:
09:20:24 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: REQUIRES Doxygen >= 1.5.4, or documentation will be a mess
09:21:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> the glorious days of DOSShell!
09:21:46 <Phantasm> I remember my first Aquarius.
09:21:54 <Eddi|zuHause2> which was just a lousy attempt to beat the dominant Norton Commander
09:22:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> and nobody heard of "browser wars" yet
09:22:29 <Phantasm> I had a game book for it.. The book had source codes of games I could type in the machine to play.. And then record them to audi o casettes.
09:25:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12507 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (Doxyfile ai_object.cpp ai_object.hpp): [NoAI] -Fix: enable Doxyfile warning about missing params and fix 3 missing params in AIObject
09:27:16 <peter1138> Phantasm: basic listings were common in those days...
09:27:59 <Celestar> FFVII hangs in the final battle
09:28:23 <Gekz> the situation lets you be free
09:28:31 <Gekz> you realise that the game owned you up until this point
09:32:12 <ln> Gekz: your lol quota for today has been exceeded.
09:33:03 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12508 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_engine.hpp ai_tile.hpp): [NoAI] -Fix: @note that refer to @return should come after @return, not before @param
09:33:24 <peter1138> bloody noai spam ;p
09:34:37 <Gekz> ln: lololooloololooloolol
09:35:33 <Celestar> The russians have built the first prototype of a mobile nuclear power plant
09:35:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> does it fit in a pocket yet?
09:36:10 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause2: no, it's a naval vehicle.
09:36:18 <Celestar> about the size of a large ferry
09:36:34 <Celestar> enough to supply a town of 200.000 people
09:36:54 <Eddi|zuHause2> great... as if illegal disposal of waste is not a big enough problem already
09:37:14 * Celestar fails to see the connection
09:37:46 <Gekz> russian + nuclear waste + waterways unguarded = glowing penis syndrome
09:38:19 <Gekz> "IT TINGLES MOMMY!" "Don't touch it."
09:38:36 <edeca> Hrm, does the UK train renewal set not work with current openttd? It says that the climate bit is incorrect no matter what I set it to :(
09:38:44 <Celestar> well, apparently the idea seems as China, Namibia and South Korea already showed interest in purchasing some.
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09:40:21 <Celestar> the mobile NPP costs apparently only 300 million EUR
09:40:39 <Phantasm> As if Russia wasn't bad enough.. Now they are giving it away to China etc...
09:41:56 <Gekz> Lets give idiots da bomb so they may spam
09:42:01 <Gekz> All your base are belong to us
09:42:47 <Celestar> Phantasm: giving what away exactly?
09:42:56 <Celestar> it's not that the Chinese dunno how to build a NPP
09:45:03 <Phantasm> Yea, but they haven't done it.
09:45:26 <Gekz> the chinese are busy breeding like chinese people.
09:45:33 <Phantasm> It is so much easier to dump radioactive stuff from mobile npp than from one on land.
09:45:59 <Phantasm> A naval vessel + big enough npp -> they can effectively load any radioactive material there and just drop it all they care.
09:46:00 <Gekz> "Alright kids, powers out until we empty this steam chubby!"
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09:46:18 <Eddi|zuHause2> Phantasm: there are international institutions that watch very closely which bit of radioactive material goes where
09:46:34 <Celestar> .oO(people have VERY weird ideas about nuclear power)
09:46:36 <Gekz> too bad china says go away
09:46:49 <Phantasm> Eddi|zuHause2: Yes, and how do they plan on doing that on every naval vessel carrying npp?
09:47:10 <Celestar> Phantasm: do you know how many nuclear powered vessels we have today?
09:47:22 <Phantasm> Celestar: As long as they are small enough there isn't much of a problem.
09:47:31 <Celestar> Russia has a fleet of like 100 nuclear ice-breakers alone ...
09:47:43 <Celestar> Phantasm: I don't see size being an issue
09:47:43 <Phantasm> But capably of supplying a town of 200k people gives some size.
09:47:59 <Phantasm> The bigger it is the easier it is to hide some extra stuff around.
09:48:00 <edeca> Most people don't realise that half of the power plant at Chernobyl was active until way into the 1990s :)
09:48:00 <Gekz> I dont like nuclear anything
09:48:09 <Celestar> Phantasm: yes, that's 60MW. that's 1/4th of what the Nimitz-Class has.
09:48:16 <edeca> Gekz: Hope you never get cancer then..
09:48:40 <edeca> Gekz: Heh, well it's all radiation :)
09:48:54 <Celestar> cancer has been around since the beginning of life ... it's nothing to do with nuclear power plants.
09:48:58 <Gekz> too bad its a concentrated dose of carbonfuck
09:49:05 <edeca> Celestar: I wasn't suggesting that
09:49:12 <edeca> Celestar: But modern treatments rely on blatting your cells with radiation :P
09:49:41 <edeca> Celestar: As do some forms of scans where they inject you with radioactive materials :)
09:49:53 <Celestar> edeca: there are even scans where they use antimatter
09:50:19 * Celestar suggests that you have nfi
09:50:27 * Gekz suggests you want to have nfi
09:51:18 <edeca> I still stand by my previous point. So many people say "radiation is bad, look at Chernobyl!" then argue like schoolgirls when you tell them it was generating power until 2000
09:51:51 <edeca> s/radiation/nuklar powar/
09:51:56 <Celestar> what does being gay having to do with anti-matter?
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09:52:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12509 /branches/noai/ (8 files in 3 dirs): [NoAI] -Fix: add some missing return/parameter documentation; probably not the last, but Doxygen couldn't find these.
09:52:19 <edeca> Celestar: Ah, that's the form of scanning I was referring to
09:52:23 <edeca> Celestar: Now I know the name, ta!
09:52:31 <Eddi|zuHause2> in what kind of physics a positron is antimatter?
09:52:49 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause2: in the Standard Model?!
09:52:57 <edeca> I imagined antimatter as some sort of science fiction stuff, but meh :)
09:53:01 <Celestar> a Positron is an anti-electron.
09:53:16 <edeca> I want to edit that picture so it says "COMPUTAR" below the terminal.. mwuhaha
09:53:57 <Eddi|zuHause2> hm, probably i mixed up stuff
09:54:05 <Celestar> same mass, same spin, same group, same generation, opposite charge => anti-particle
09:55:15 * Celestar wonders why Gekz is so quiet all of a sudden :P
09:55:49 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, it's the dangerous kind of half-knowledge about quantum mechanics ;)
09:56:13 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause2: lol yeah. the half that goes "boom" or the half that goes "bam!" ?
10:00:40 <edeca> Does anybody here know why the uk train renewal set doesn't work with my current openttd though (openttd + yapp from buildottd). I mean, that's got to be more important than anti-matter ;)
10:01:52 <Celestar> edeca: does it work with vanilla openttd?
10:02:11 <edeca> Good question, let's try
10:02:56 <Maedhros> edeca: which climate are you trying to use ukrs in?
10:03:18 <edeca> Sub tropical or temperate
10:03:34 <edeca> In the newgrf window it says that the climate bit is wrong when set to 1 2 or 3
10:04:03 <Rubidium> so you're in subtropical and it (UKRS) needs to have temperate
10:04:15 <edeca> Heh, that's not an option either. Darn, it works in vanilla. Must be broken buildottd or yapp
10:04:28 <edeca> Rubidium: Sorry, I meant arctic
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10:05:55 <edeca> OK, it works now.. I must have been smoking something earlier :|
10:06:16 <edeca> Shame that I'd just started breaking even in my old game without it.
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10:06:35 <Phantasm> Aww, Q9450 has half the L1 cache per core than Opteron 165. :/
10:06:39 <edeca> I might have to compile on Windows myself though, too many patches I miss :(
10:10:58 <peter1138> Phantasm: it has more cores then ;)
10:11:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> so? you get 2% more cache misses then...
10:12:22 <Phantasm> Opteron has 64+64 kB L1 data+inst. And Q9450 has 32+32 kB L1 data+inst.
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10:17:28 <peter1138> 386 must win, as it has no cache misses...
10:19:34 <Celestar> when was L1 cache first introduced?
10:28:54 <peter1138> For intel, it was the 486
10:29:21 <edeca> And 1995 for L2 cache by the looks of it
10:29:59 <peter1138> hehe, 800 nm technology :D
10:31:01 <Gekz> does anyone here speak french
10:31:14 <Celestar> only if I'm forced to :P
10:31:22 <Gekz> i just need to know if this is valid
10:34:22 <Celestar> MA mere <name> I'd say
10:35:40 <edeca> What's even more scary is that we'll be laughing at the consideration of a processor with only 4 cores and only 128K L1 cache in 20 years ;)
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10:48:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> Celestar: does that picture imply that they released it 4 years too late?
10:48:48 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause2: appears so. Possibly ;)
10:49:06 <Celestar> 4 years late and a failure ... I think someone found himself a new job ....
10:55:39 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12510 /branches/noai/ (12 files in 5 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added AIError, which allows you to catch errors triggered by commands (Morloth)
10:57:38 <edeca> 4 years late and a failure, would make a perfect policitian
10:57:44 <edeca> Even better if I could spell
10:58:30 <Celestar> Rubidium: peter1138: so the recommended procedure for newgrf_ports is re-implementation, do I read correctly?
11:00:12 <edeca> What is the chance of patches like yapp or the land cloning tool making it into trunk eventually? I'm sure it must get asked lots but they are the only two reasons I don't play trunk at the moment
11:02:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> yapp is very likely to get into trunk, if by "land cloning" you mean "copy paste", that is doubtful to be included
11:03:02 <edeca> I'm glad about yapp, that's one of my biggest annoyances :)
11:03:09 <edeca> copy paste because of multiplayer?
11:09:04 <peter1138> Where's ARM on that?
11:09:56 <peter1138> what is the "top 500"?
11:10:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> the top 500 supercomputers?
11:13:02 <Phantasm> Copy/paste could be made such that for multiplayer, the host could enable/disable it..
11:15:13 <edeca> Yes, hence me wondering why it couldn't be in trunk
11:15:22 <edeca> Unless it is simply too difficult to keep up to date with map changes
11:15:40 <edeca> I haven't played in a while and there are lots of neat things in trunk now :)
11:15:48 <edeca> Like the little percentage above a loading train
11:15:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> there are also implementation details about it
11:16:06 <Eddi|zuHause2> look for previous discussions on the matter
11:16:18 <edeca> And grouping trains, mm. That's nice.
11:17:05 <Celestar> I really should play it at some point :P
11:17:30 <edeca> Hrm, how about % loading? That would be nice too, I miss that
11:17:41 <edeca> The last time I played was when miniin was updated regularly, heh
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11:30:33 <Celestar> what about FS#1888? Switching grfs during the game is not really recommended, is it?
11:31:57 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12511 /branches/noai/ (8 files in 5 dirs): [NoAI] -Add (WIP): AI Debug GUI. For now it is a stripped down copy of performance details. In future it will allow reloading of AI, changing settings, and reading the log of the AI
11:32:55 * Celestar wonders whether we should disable loading grfs during a running game
11:34:43 <Gekz> Celestar: or at least, without them enabling a patch
11:34:48 <Maedhros> some of them are harmless - adding station / house grfs shouldn't cause a problem
11:35:05 <Maedhros> removing houses shouldn't be a problem either (i'm not sure about stations)
11:35:05 <Celestar> Maedhros: true. but maybe we should "mark" the savegame so that we know right away.
11:35:13 <Ammler> at least it should be possible to add industries
11:35:37 <Maedhros> Celestar: that's a good idea, yes
11:36:09 <Celestar> and then trash all bugs that have such savegames
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11:36:52 <Gekz> make it increment every time they change the grf
11:37:00 <Gekz> so you can say LOL NOOB YOU CHANGED IT 13421e3 times
11:37:32 <Ammler> Gekz: there is already a msg box...
11:37:49 <Gekz> Ammler: idiots disregard them
11:37:55 <Gekz> thats why windows is such a success
11:38:04 <Gekz> "Press OK to proceed to destroy your system."
11:38:33 <Ammler> maybe you could take the time for fixing that, instead of blocking user from doing it
11:39:01 <Gekz> they need to be protected from themselves
11:39:13 <Maedhros> there are some things that can't be fixed - articulated vehicles becoming non-articulated, vehicles running on the wrong track-type
11:39:34 <Maedhros> trains finding themselves on parts of stations that they're not supposed to be able to use
11:39:38 <Ammler> Maedhros: adding newindustries to a scenario should be possible
11:40:23 <Maedhros> mmm. i don't know much about how newindustries works in openttd, to be honest
11:42:00 <Ammler> the problem with it, some properities won't go to the save after generation the map and adding GRF after
11:42:17 <Ammler> something with cargo types
11:42:33 <Ammler> you don't get income for example sand, as coal works
11:43:40 <Ammler> means, you need to know, BEFORE you creating a scenario, which cargo types you like to use
11:45:40 <Ammler> and does also mean, you can't use existing GRFs
11:47:51 <Mirrakor> wouldn't it be possible to allow "graphi change only" mode or something like this? Ignoring the other settings
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11:57:47 <Ammler> [13:47] <Mirrakor> wouldn't it be possible to allow "graphi change only" mode or something like this? Ignoring the other settings <-- useless for newindustries, you need to alter save for cargo types
11:58:35 <Mirrakor> for newindustries yes - but for other stuff?
12:05:37 <Eddi|zuHause2> <Mirrakor> wouldn't it be possible to allow "graphi change only" mode or something like this? Ignoring the other settings <- some special grfs can be put under [newgrf-static], these are graphical only
12:06:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> but the grfs have to be prepared for that, it won't work with most grfs
12:06:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> examples for this are tree replacement, catenary graphics and some bridge replacements
12:07:03 <Ammler> i.e. all OpenGFX grfs except landscape would work with static
12:07:31 <Ammler> (landscape doesn't because of the rivers)
12:08:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> it'd kinda make sense to split the rivers from the landscape, or not?
12:10:22 <Mirrakor> if a train station accepts items - does it also mean it provides?
12:11:01 <Mirrakor> do I only get them from industries?
12:12:59 <Maedhros> no, houses can produce things as well
12:13:00 <Ammler> you could use transfer
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12:14:03 <Mirrakor> oh sorry - I guess I phrased my question wrong: when it says "station xyz, accepts: mails, items, passengers" - does that mean I can get items from this station and transfer it to another station(which also accepts items)
12:16:33 <Maedhros> not unless you use transfers - otherwise the items will be delivered to the station and effectively disappear
12:17:14 <Maedhros> if you use transfers you can make them accumulate at that station instead so they can then be picked up again and delivered to the other station
12:18:15 <Mirrakor> so if build a transfer depot next to the train station the items can go on rthe rails?
12:26:12 <edeca> There's no such thing as a transfer depot..
12:26:20 <edeca> You just include "transfer" in the orders
12:27:22 <Mirrakor> sorry, I meant a truck depot
12:28:18 <edeca> Ah, yes, you can transfer between trucks/trains/planes
12:28:24 <edeca> That works really nicely in some cases
12:30:02 <Mirrakor> edeca: now I've the following situation - I build two truck stations(which says "accepting: mail, items") - now I want to transfer those items.. but it doesn't seem to work - the truck keeps empty
12:31:03 <edeca> Well if you're definitely using the right sorts of trucks and something is producing 'items', I'm unsure why
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12:31:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> Mirrakor: accepting != producing
12:31:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> goods are produced in a factory or a saw mill
12:31:56 <Mirrakor> yeah - that's exactly the point/problem - what does really produce such stuff?
12:32:05 <Mirrakor> okay, they're usually out of town
12:32:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> but only if you deliver raw materials
12:32:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> like if you transport wood from a forest to a saw mill, the saw mill will turn this wood into goods
12:32:49 <ln> given the number of recent Nazi-related movies, is there some company somewhere that is specialized in manufacturing uniforms for movie studios?
12:33:18 <Mirrakor> ln: yesterday I thought the same - they certainly could share some stuff..
12:33:23 <Eddi|zuHause2> ln: i have no idea
12:33:37 <Mirrakor> Eddi|zuHause2: so is it actually resonable to invest in goods?
12:34:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> ln: usual problem is to justify that nazi-related stuff is not used for neonazi purposes
12:34:14 <edeca> Mirrakor: If you own the end-to-end goods chain, you'll make lots of money
12:34:26 <edeca> Mirrakor: Start by developing routes from the raw materials to the factory
12:34:31 <edeca> Mirrakor: Build up a town so it accepts goods
12:34:32 <ln> and question #2, does the copyright holder of the uniform design get royalties? (if it is a person, certainly he/she has not been dead for 70 years yet)
12:34:42 <edeca> Mirrakor: Then transport the goods to the town
12:34:52 <edeca> ln: Can you copyright a uniform?
12:35:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> ln: german law states that official signs of state institutions have to be public domain
12:35:21 <Mirrakor> ln: I don't think they get royalties, it's for a historic/documental reason
12:35:36 <edeca> ln: I didn't know of a "why not" :)
12:36:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> i.e. nobody can collect royalties on flags and stuff
12:36:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> i'm not sure if that extends to uniforms
12:37:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> but be aware that these "flags and stuff" are subject to other laws beyond copyright
12:37:36 <Mirrakor> edeca: thanks for the info - is there any special kind of industrie you'd invest in?
12:38:16 <edeca> Mirrakor: Meh I play with "allow multiple industries" enabled and look for an area with a number of decent producers
12:38:36 <edeca> Mirrakor: Or pull up the "industry" list (little factory item on toolbar) and look for what is producing the most raw material
12:39:04 <Mirrakor> allow multiple industries - is when you can have different industries in a city?
12:39:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, more of the same
12:41:03 <Mirrakor> hm.. it says here there's coal, animals and corn produced
12:41:43 <Mirrakor> do they turn into goods somehow? (sorry for bothering you with endless questions - I didn't found a wiki entry on those specific theme)
12:42:09 <edeca> Animals and corn turn into food
12:42:21 <edeca> Coal doesn't turn into anything except power, but nothing happens with that
12:42:33 <Mirrakor> but who accepts corn?
12:42:38 <edeca> Food processing factory
12:43:12 <edeca> And my brewery, mm, beer
12:43:15 <Mirrakor> hm I don't see such a factory around anywere
12:43:56 <Mirrakor> hm.. so I guess I should go with wood
12:44:13 <Mirrakor> bring it to a saw mil and then directly in the city
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12:58:34 <edeca> Can you compile trunk with vc2008 express edition?
12:58:44 <edeca> Or am I going to have to pull out my gentoo laptop? :P
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13:07:08 <Mirrakor> sorry *gg* but what was that "Food processing factory" I don't see any
13:07:38 <Ammler> Mirrakor: use arctic clima
13:08:30 <Mirrakor> okay, so in a normal clima food isn't useable at all?
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13:26:31 <Mirrakor> how can I get raw materials such as wood?
13:27:19 <Mirrakor> I mean, there's a wood, but if I place a truck station next to the wood it doesn't accept wood
13:28:25 <Ammler> wood will be accepted by Lumber Mill
13:29:02 <Ammler> the station at Forest will load wood
13:29:53 <Ammler> but first you need to have a truck/train there, which can carry wood
13:45:34 <Diadem> I just discovered that realistic acceleration removes deceleration by curves
13:48:27 <Diadem> I always thought it slowed down trains
13:48:31 <Diadem> but it speeds them up :)
13:48:37 <hylje> if you have long enough straigth track before and after the curve
13:48:44 <hylje> that depends on train length
13:48:59 <Ammler> Diadem: it makes trains growing not speed up
13:49:09 <Ammler> but thats the perspecitve
13:51:04 <Diadem> Gonna have to do some testing with it I guess :)
13:52:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12512 /branches/noai/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix r12511: it was pointed out to me to handle widgets with enums... I only wish there was a guideline for their names ;)
13:54:06 <Diadem> So how exactly does it change things?
13:54:16 <Diadem> Realistic acceleration goes uphill a lot faster. It takes corners without slowing at all
13:54:19 <Diadem> What are the drawbacks?
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13:55:31 <edeca> Anybody know if there is an easy way to grab all the dependencies (like png.h) to build openttd on windows?
13:55:38 <edeca> Oh I wish my dekstop was gentoo :|
13:55:55 <glx> Diadem: with RA, going uphill slows the train down
13:56:01 <keyweed> Diadem: i don't know all the details, but the mass of the train is taken into account on uphill stretches
13:56:49 <glx> so it's or slow in curves, or slow on slopes
13:56:54 <Diadem> Actually going uphill slows the train down less, a lot less, with RA
13:57:15 <Phantasm> It slows realistically.
13:58:18 <Diadem> I'm using engines with very little power here, steam
13:58:42 <Diadem> They seem to accelerate slightly slower on straight stretches
13:58:54 <Phantasm> Both low power and low speed.
13:59:01 <Phantasm> I think the physics are somewhat explained in the wiki.
13:59:29 <Diadem> It has very little on it
14:01:13 <Diadem> I was looking at hte page about realistic acceleration
14:03:43 <Diadem> What is the default setting for "Weight multiplier for freight to simulate heavy trains"?
14:12:26 <Diadem> what exactly does it do?
14:12:59 <Diadem> it only affects cargo? So loaded trains?
14:13:13 <Diadem> Say you put it on two, then 30 tonnes of coal would 'weigh' 60 tonnes?
14:13:36 <edeca> Urgh, need directx sdk, urgh ;)
14:14:09 <Trond> I have no idea Diadem... wiki says nothing about that option...
14:14:40 <Diadem> Hence me asking here :)
14:14:51 <Diadem> If we could figure it out we could even update the wiki :)
14:15:31 <Trond> yeh, so I guess you try it and see what happens =)
14:16:15 <Trond> I'll get a coffee while you're testing, hehe :P
14:24:41 <Diadem> RA accelerates a lot faster at slower speeds
14:24:45 <Diadem> but less fast near top speed
14:25:48 <Celestar> Diadem: which is how it works IRL
14:26:09 <Diadem> And the weight multiplier does nothing at all
14:28:14 <Diadem> both with and without RA trains accelerate at exactly the same speed wether the weight multiplier is 1 or 10
14:29:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> it only applies for _full_ trains, and not for passengers/mail
14:29:37 <Diadem> I tried it with full trains
14:30:12 <Diadem> To be exact I tried it with a SH'8P' with 9 fully loaded coal trucks behind it
14:30:19 <Eddi|zuHause2> have you tried uphill?
14:31:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> preferably, going uphill from 0 speed
14:31:56 <Trond> so the weight multipl. only works uphill?
14:33:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, but the effects are most visible there
14:33:44 <Diadem> Eddi|zuHause2: But it only works on full trains, right?
14:34:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> Diadem: empty trains should have no significant weight anyway
14:34:43 <Diadem> But that makes it harder to test, I can't build full trains in the depot )
14:48:23 <edeca> Anybody here compile on windows? I've got the directx sdk (400MB!) but it doesn't have some of the headers in, where should they come from?
14:48:47 <Eddi|zuHause2> you need an older release
14:49:05 <Forked> np :) I remember it was a pain
14:51:20 <Trond> BOTTD makes it really easy to compile on windows :)
14:51:44 <edeca> Trond: Not if you want more than 1 patch :)
14:52:29 <Trond> well... tortoise+bottd makes it really easy to compile on windows then
14:52:49 <edeca> Trond: I already have it checked out thanks to svn in cygwin.. can I just patch && compile with bottd?
14:52:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> edeca: the limitation to 1 patch is on purpose
14:53:22 <Trond> I apply several patches on tortoise, then make a patch from that, and use that in BOTTD
14:53:36 <hylje> manual merging ain't very pretty
14:53:43 <edeca> Eddi|zuHause2: It does make sense
14:53:57 <Trond> I use six patches on my own builds with BOTTD that way
14:54:19 <Mirrakor> where can I disable breakdowns? (is it in the Patch -> Vehicle tab?)
14:54:33 <edeca> Trond: That's a good idea, I'll do it like that.
14:54:53 <hylje> Mirrakor: oh, wait, it's in difficulty
14:55:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> Mirrakor: no, difficulty settings
14:56:00 <Eddi|zuHause2> but in the patches there is "disable servicing if breakdowns are off"
14:58:00 <edeca> Trond: Meh, it wouldn't be an issue if I didn't have a windows desktop :)
14:58:05 <edeca> Trond: svn + patch + gcc = win
14:59:05 <Trond> windows is nice and easy for slackers :P
14:59:43 <Trond> its just 'press play on tape' and repeat after crash
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15:08:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, it's much more difficult to type "make" and it just does it right
15:10:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> edeca: it's called 'irony'
15:10:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: skidd13 * r12513 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_house.cpp town.h town_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: rename OriginalTileRandomiser something more descriptive
15:11:24 <edeca> Eddi|zuHause2: Where do i type the codez 'make'? in the black box with the bash sign? (</sarcasm>)
15:12:16 <ln> edeca: and where was the opening tag?
15:16:30 <edeca> ln: I don't claim to be compliant ;)
15:18:10 <Mirrakor> I've got a question (yet again.. :D )
15:18:57 <Mirrakor> I build a truck station near a oil plant - but my trucks can't pickup any oil...
15:19:17 <edeca> Mirrakor: Do you mean an oil well?
15:19:17 <mrfrenzy> is it a truck station and not a bus station
15:19:27 <Mirrakor> I've got oil trucks :D
15:19:27 <edeca> Mirrakor: Oil refineries accept, they don't produce
15:19:37 <edeca> Mirrakor: And is the depot near enough to the oil well
15:19:48 <Mirrakor> the depot or the station?
15:20:50 <Mirrakor> it's an oil field (or in fact it's a plasticwell)
15:21:46 <hylje> toyland, you sick person
15:22:50 <edeca> Why is that even still part of the game? :)
15:24:31 <Trond> the eleven year old here liked it...
15:25:25 <edeca> It makes me ill just looking at it
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15:26:22 <Trond> I started a game there once...
15:26:41 <Trond> it didnt even last a week (gametime) =)
15:28:32 <Belugas> is there anyone who is bored and who would like to help fixing a bug? Or at least provide data for fixing it?
15:28:44 <Belugas> the more data we will gather, the better it is.
15:28:50 <Belugas> it is an easy task, in fact
15:29:11 <Belugas> all you have to do, is to run the game, for a 100 years,
15:29:24 <Belugas> with NO interventions, NO AI, nothing
15:29:51 <Belugas> and every 10 years, tell me the number of all industries
15:30:09 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12514 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_object.cpp ai_object.hpp): [NoAI] -Fix: 'const <integral> Function()' make absolutely no sense.
15:30:25 <Belugas> so, total number, plus number of individual industry type
15:34:31 <Belugas> until Rubidium comes up with his idea, i forgot to specify it has to be done on 2048*2048 and 256*256
15:35:07 <Belugas> Very low amount of towns
15:35:17 <Belugas> allow multiple factories on same town.
15:35:22 <Belugas> close to each other is allowed.
15:35:51 <Rubidium> well, lets try that :)
15:35:53 <Phantasm> And high starting industry count.
15:36:48 <Belugas> we would like to be able to verify the difference of the decrease of industries depending of the map sizes
15:37:22 <Belugas> the assumption is the the bigger the map, the fastest the number of indutries do decline
15:37:45 <Belugas> so, it can be viewed as a bug, or as an unbalancing. depends
15:37:52 <Belugas> but it may need to be fixed
15:38:19 <Belugas> problem, it requires a lot of data to be able to follow the decline
15:38:24 <Belugas> therefore, asking users
15:38:37 <Rubidium> therefor making a patch that dumps that to the console
15:39:44 <Rubidium> does print it yearly though
15:40:11 <Belugas> even better if it yearly
15:40:20 <frosch123> Standard/smooth economy is also important, I guess
15:40:37 <Belugas> the 10 years idea was to have a general idea without bugging too much
15:40:50 <Belugas> i don't thuink standard/smooth is important
15:41:03 <Phantasm> It might be, so better have it at same setting for everyone.
15:41:06 <Belugas> unless it makes an impact on the speed of death
15:41:33 <Belugas> or maybe have a few batches on smooth, and a few batches on standard?
15:41:43 <Belugas> but distinctively markes
15:41:45 <frosch123> IIRC smooth economy calls production change for every industry every month (including the same chance for every industry to close). While non-smooth economy picks only one industry per month
15:42:10 <Belugas> both are called monthly
15:42:18 <Belugas> they just differ on their processes
15:42:25 * Maedhros suggests a standard config file as well
15:42:32 <Phantasm> Industry dies when the production goes too low, so it should matter. If not on average dying time, at least on variance.
15:42:53 <Belugas> good idea too, Maedhros
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15:43:18 <Belugas> mmh... i need a bench so i can lay my feet :(
15:43:33 <Belugas> comuter is too cubic :(
15:44:19 <Belugas> naaa... that is randomproductionchange VS monthly...
15:46:47 <frosch123> well yes, smooth economy uses monthly, while standard uses randomchange
15:50:07 <nicfer> hmmm openttd is already a game about making cities grow
15:50:42 <nicfer> maybe if temperate cities don't grow by theyselves it would be good
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16:07:48 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12515 /branches/noai/src/ai/ai_threads.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: when an AI dies on its own, don't kill the AI-script, just mark it as dead and don't do anything until the company dies with it
16:08:02 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: skidd13 * r12516 /trunk/src/core/ (random_func.cpp random_func.hpp): -Revert r2583: Removed mersenne PRNG cause it is not used and won't be used in the future
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16:11:22 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12517 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_error.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: type in @file of ai_error.cpp
16:13:00 <Mirrakor> edeca: it's not my fault - it's the only theme my gf is willing to play :D
16:13:23 <edeca> Mirrakor: Buy her a laptop, that solved my problems
16:14:23 <edeca> Or even better, buy yourself a decent laptop and let her use the old pc
16:14:38 <Mirrakor> this is dark *gg* no seriously - I think the theme shouldn't actually matter?!
16:19:16 <Mirrakor> Is it possible that another player already "reserved" it?
16:22:53 <Digitalfox> I'm so fuc* .... I have 2 weeks to learn the basics of C and C++ for my admission exam to university.. :|
16:23:53 <Digitalfox> Shit where should I start? Any book recomended or tutorial?
16:24:10 <Mirrakor> there are many books around - the basics are fairly easy :)
16:24:36 <Digitalfox> Mirrakor I really hope it is or i'm fuc*
16:24:52 <Digitalfox> yorick will take a look, thanks
16:25:09 <Mirrakor> Do you have to write real code or just structograms?
16:25:12 <ln> learning C _and C++ in 2 weeks... that's well yeah.
16:25:36 <Mirrakor> btw. isn't there a book series - "learning xyz in zwy days?"
16:26:06 <Digitalfox> Mirrakor I'm only knowing what to study tomorrow when they publish the exam requirements
16:26:22 <ln> Mirrakor: yes, but it's 21 days, and 21 > 14.
16:26:55 <Digitalfox> ln fuc* it.. I'll study day and night, I have no other option :(
16:27:12 <ln> besides, since we are on an English channel, let us not talk about "2 weeks" but instead "fortnight".
16:27:58 <Digitalfox> I need also to study maths.. But that I'll have some classes with math's teachers who I know..
16:28:44 <Mirrakor> ln: if he's nothing else to do.. *gg*
16:28:58 <Digitalfox> But I'm pretty much screwed this 2 weeks...
16:29:30 <Digitalfox> I did have work to do.. But this is my first priority :)
16:32:58 <Mirrakor> hm.. I've 0.6.0-RC1 when I want to play multiplayer, does the other play have to has the same version?
16:33:50 <Mirrakor> even the RC1 has to macht?
16:33:54 <Digitalfox> Well I choose the road of work on my early life and have taken many certifications thinking university wouldn't be needed, but my country Portugal is in a bad situation and so university opens many new doors.. :)
16:34:47 <Maedhros> Mirrakor: yes - the version must be exactly the same, unless you know exactly what you're doing
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16:47:13 <dih> indian call centeres have a requirement for their futur staff
16:47:45 <dih> they need to construct a sentance, including 3 certain words
16:48:30 <dih> "the phone goes green green, i pink it up and say: yellow?"
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16:59:25 <Maedhros> well, that was horrific
17:00:35 <Diadem> Income: About 60 million
17:00:41 <Mirrakor> hm.. what is more efficient: Same distance: Truck or Train
17:00:42 <Diadem> Construction costs this year: 200 million
17:03:26 <Patrick`> Mirrakor: train by far
17:03:51 <Diadem> Building a 10-track steel line over the entire lenght of a 1024 map
17:04:10 <Diadem> The problem however is that I'm out of money now and the track isn't quite finished yet :)
17:04:31 <hylje> where do you need a 10-track line
17:04:35 <Diadem> But I should make enough to finish the remainder while my trains are going
17:04:51 <Diadem> I don't. But gotta think of the future :)
17:06:29 <Diadem> 300 trains now, about 150 of those bringing iron ore to the same steel mill
17:06:45 <Diadem> And 100 of those on the line I just build transporting steel :)
17:08:39 <Mirrakor> How's that with Multiplayer and the patches...
17:09:32 <Mirrakor> Can everyone set the settings(I'd doubt that), can the host set the settings(during game) or do they have to be set before the game starts
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17:13:35 <Diadem> I wonder how much it'll pay
17:13:38 <Diadem> probably not that much
17:13:56 <Diadem> since I get a huge time penalty
17:18:50 <Sacro> though i have no idea how it works
17:19:23 <Diadem> 100 trains, each takes about 14 months for the entire trip, and they get 330K per trip. That's, hmm, about 30 million a year
17:19:27 <Diadem> Not bad for a single line :)
17:21:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12518 /branches/noai/src/ai/ai.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: minor change of order avoids silly one-in-a-milion errors :)
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17:27:37 <jez9999> looks like OOXML will pass as an ISO standard
17:27:56 <jez9999> time for a new standards body methinks
17:28:08 <Sacro> we need a standard standards board
17:28:12 <jez9999> more stringent rules; if bribery is detected, all involved parties are permenantly banned from the organization
17:28:47 <Mirrakor> jez9999: could it be more obvious?
17:29:00 <Wolf01> Any way to clean a svn folder? My 2 OTTD checkouts take 350MB each one o_o'''
17:30:53 <Wolf01> *without recreating the checkout
17:30:59 <Diadem> Mirrakor: One second, turns out 100 trains isn't enough, need 50 more :)
17:31:03 <Wolf01> jez9999, I'll try to suggest a new standard, compatible with meter but also with beer, pizza and cheese
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17:32:00 <Prof_Frink> Wolf01: gas, electric or water?
17:32:05 <yo> everybody gratz with the 0.60 version
17:32:47 <Wolf01> so I can recharge my plasmagun
17:33:04 <jez9999> so i was shopping just now, and i was coming down on the escalator
17:33:26 <jez9999> some hideous woman behind me was saying to her child, "you should've slapped his face off! i told you you should've slapped his face off!"
17:33:31 <jez9999> shame these people breed
17:33:55 <jez9999> everyone was looking at her though heh
17:34:11 <Prof_Frink> jez9999: When I rule the world, they'll be rounded up and used as fuel.
17:36:13 <Phantasm> Diadem: Uhm.. A pair of tracks can transport about 20 000 cargo a month (with normal breakdowns).
17:36:16 <Patrick`> don't belive in networks?
17:36:24 <jez9999> Diadem: im guessing you dont like towns
17:36:27 <Patrick`> Phantasm: and without networks?
17:36:32 <jez9999> Diadem: plonninghall is destroyed
17:36:47 <Diadem> jez9999: Yeah took me ages, was over 1200 people :)
17:36:56 <Diadem> jez9999: I often remove towns if they are in the way ;)
17:37:18 <Diadem> Phantasm: With maglevs?
17:37:23 <Diadem> Phantasm: Not with steam trains
17:37:34 <Phantasm> 12-16 station tracks with suitable depot system and a pair of tracks can do 20 000 cargo a month with maglevs yea.
17:37:35 <Prof_Frink> You know the easy way to kill a town?
17:37:52 <Phantasm> Diadem: Btw, at the era of steam trains, you won't have 20 000 cargo to transport.
17:38:08 <jez9999> has anyone written any half-decent Squirrel AIs for NoAI yet?
17:38:12 <jez9999> im sure there must be some around, cant find any
17:38:14 <Diadem> Patrick`: What do you mean? I don't believe in networks?
17:38:28 <Prof_Frink> Diadem: No, demolishing four buildings/road pieces and letting it decay
17:38:31 <Patrick`> Diadem: on closer inspection, you have some
17:38:40 *** Osai is now known as Osai`off
17:38:48 <jez9999> i want an AI that will give me a good challenge and try to bankrupt me by making my services unprofitable
17:39:06 <Phantasm> The normal AI can't even make profit in hardest possible settings. ;P
17:39:08 <yorick> jez9999: to #openttd.noai?
17:39:18 <Diadem> Phantasm: My steel mill does about 5000 a month. Trust me, I need so many trains to transport that all to the other side
17:39:30 <yorick> the WrightAI, that comes shipped with the noai branch, is a perfect competition
17:39:34 <Diadem> I could do with less lines I guess. But not with one. Just check the train density. Would need at least 3. Might as well make it 5, nicer number :)
17:39:37 <Phantasm> Diadem: 5k a month.. I'd say about 2 pair of tracks is enough.
17:39:54 <Phantasm> Diadem: The key is to fully utilize the tracks.. It takes quite a strange and optimized station to do so.
17:40:19 <Patrick`> I had an amusing idea once
17:40:22 <Phantasm> Do you have the tracks fully utilized?
17:40:28 <Diadem> Patrick`: I have a huge network towards my steel mill. Away from it, nope, no need, just one single long line
17:40:33 <Patrick`> to disable collision detection and just use a single railway line to carry 500 trains
17:40:33 <Phantasm> So that you have train after train with almost no space between going there?
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17:41:12 <Diadem> Phantasm: Nope. Still working on that. But for this steel line, it's really not needed. There's room enough, just a cost limitation
17:41:17 <Diadem> And it was only 200 million to build this line
17:41:37 <Diadem> Would have been maybe only 100 million with just 2 tracks
17:42:01 <Phantasm> Diadem: Try playing with as hard settings as possible.
17:42:08 <Phantasm> Nothing but water and mountains etc.
17:42:18 <Phantasm> And subarctic map style preferably. :)
17:42:26 <Diadem> I know this is an easy game for fun
17:42:38 <Phantasm> That way you won't get hundreds of millions of money in dozen years.
17:42:42 <Diadem> Played on mountains/seas often enough
17:42:50 <Phantasm> For me, I lose interest when I have too much money to spend.
17:43:06 <Patrick`> but even so after 5-10 years I have several million
17:43:10 <Patrick`> and it starts to get silly
17:43:21 <Wolf01> mmmh seem the only way is to blow up the checkouts and remake them... clearup freed only 4MB
17:43:23 <Patrick`> I want, like, train morgages, and lines that take 20 years to break even
17:44:25 <jez9999> the proper way to prevent yourself from getting 100s of millions is to code an AI so good it competes with you
17:44:40 <Patrick`> competition is annoying and frustrating
17:44:42 <Phantasm> jez9999: Won't really help.
17:44:49 <yorick> after which you know how to compete with it
17:44:53 <Patrick`> I'd rather see some asymmetric coop games
17:44:55 <jez9999> your routes arent very profitable because its rating is very high and you dont get much production. also the industries' productions shouldnt increase over time, they massively increase you you make stupid amount of money
17:44:56 <Phantasm> There is enough space to go around.
17:45:00 <Patrick`> where a "line master" builds track to industries
17:45:05 <jez9999> Phantasm: depends on the mapsize
17:45:09 <Patrick`> and then rents capacity to the train companies
17:45:11 <Phantasm> jez9999: Standard map.
17:45:14 <jez9999> on a 512^2, i'd say the CPU could give you a good run
17:45:21 <jez9999> after 50 years it'll be competing well
17:45:27 <jez9999> (if it's a very good ai)
17:45:28 <Diadem> The main thing is that operating costs aren't high enough
17:45:39 <Patrick`> I hate upgrading rail types so much that I start with monorail
17:45:42 <Diadem> Construction costs, no matter map type, etc, just don't matter anymore after a while
17:45:48 <Phantasm> jez9999: After 10 years you have enough money. Map insn't full yet.. You can go around well with ideal AI not making you bankrupt.
17:45:50 <Patrick`> but now it costs > max loan to build a single monorail line
17:45:51 <Diadem> The only way to avoid that is by making things much less profitable
17:46:52 <jez9999> Phantasm: mmhmm, hard to think of a solution
17:46:55 <jez9999> i guess there are several
17:47:11 <jez9999> high operating costs... having to pay big shareholder dividends if you're rich might be good
17:47:14 <jez9999> so you have to keep earning
17:47:31 <jez9999> and of course a good AI to keep you having to create good services
17:47:32 <Phantasm> jez9999: Have you played Railroad Tycoon 2?
17:47:44 <jez9999> isnt it an old dos game?
17:47:52 <Phantasm> Something like that.
17:48:02 <jez9999> but it looked horrible compared with TT :-)
17:48:09 <jez9999> TT looks cute and fuzzy
17:48:23 <Phantasm> Looked yes, and part of the gameplay is quite off.. But it has awesome stock system!
17:48:44 <Phantasm> OTTD could use such stock system.
17:49:10 <Phantasm> It is quite hard to explain.. It is more or less realistic stock market made into there.
17:49:23 <jez9999> so comp players could buy you out?
17:49:27 <Phantasm> You start with personal money, you can make a company with your own money and get investor money to help with it.
17:49:28 <jez9999> not sure that would be good for gameplay
17:49:33 <Noldo> it can't be applied directly because the chairman/manager == company in openttd
17:49:36 <Phantasm> Yes, comp could buy you out.
17:49:42 <Phantasm> But in a realistic sense.
17:49:55 <Phantasm> You can also prevent the comp from buying you out if you are good enough.
17:49:57 <jez9999> i mean in the real world buyouts happen, but that doesnt mean the company bought out 'loses', they just become rich
17:50:07 <jez9999> in openTTD a buyout would put you out of the game as if you had 'lost'
17:50:16 <Phantasm> jez9999: You could start new company.
17:50:27 <jez9999> but at a massive disadvantage
17:50:33 <jez9999> you lose huge amount of infrastructure
17:50:41 <Phantasm> You would get loads and loads of personal money if you got bought. And you could start fully self owned company that can't be bought unless you agree to.
17:50:55 <jez9999> well you could do that at the start
17:50:56 <Phantasm> But you get money worth the infrastructure (depending on how much of the company you own).
17:51:08 <Phantasm> You don't have enough money at start to do so.
17:51:09 <jez9999> if you cant be bought out why even offer the option
17:51:30 <Phantasm> Anyway, if you had played RT2 you would know the system is good and buying someone else out isn't just like that. So it would work just fine.
17:52:00 <Diadem> Well for a start they should fix company values then
17:52:02 <Phantasm> There are various things that can be done with the stock market.
17:52:03 <jez9999> im looking to get a system that keeps you playing, and keeps you working hard to create good services
17:52:06 <jez9999> what are you looking for? :-)
17:52:11 <Diadem> Mine is worth only slight more than my yearly income
17:52:17 <Diadem> Should be 20x as much, at least
17:52:25 <Phantasm> Diadem: The company value in OTTD is a joke.
17:52:39 <Noldo> it's only the book value
17:53:01 <Phantasm> RT2 had a real life company value simulation.. The company value depends on the economy.. If economy is booming the value is more and if there is depression the value goes less etc.
17:53:09 <Phantasm> And lots of factors matter on it.
17:53:25 <jez9999> i think that's more than is needed (initially) to have a more competitive game though
17:53:30 <Diadem> Last year I made 43 million *net* profit
17:53:40 <Diadem> My company value: 44 million
17:53:57 <Phantasm> Diadem: Old trains don't have much value, so yea, OTTD company value is a joke.
17:54:02 <jez9999> you must be spending a lot of money :-)
17:54:28 <Diadem> Yeah see the screenie :)
17:54:37 <Diadem> I spent about 200 million this year. So atm I have only 5 million cash
17:54:50 <jez9999> i think my problem with OpenTTD main branch is i have different priotiries to the main devs
17:55:00 <jez9999> the main devs seem to want to make the game good for the #openttdcoop people
17:55:04 <jez9999> tons of trains, graphics, and stuff
17:55:13 <jez9999> good train networks, signals etc
17:55:26 <jez9999> all good but if you want a fun 1 player game that isnt enough, you need to concentrate on competition and AI
17:55:27 <Diadem> I don't understand the focus on graphics... Noone plays a 10 year old game for the pretty graphics
17:55:33 <jez9999> main devs dont give a damn about that :-(
17:55:46 <jez9999> we could do with a few major branches
17:55:55 <jez9999> what, do you dispute that statement?
17:56:13 <Belugas> you do not know waht you are talking about
17:56:17 <jez9999> there is still a crappy AI and it's far too easy to make money :-)
17:56:31 <blathijs> jez9999: It's more of an issue of what people are able to do, or like to do
17:56:31 <Rubidium> jez9999: there are already too many branches to manage
17:56:57 <Diadem> Well jez9999 resources are limited
17:57:09 <blathijs> jez9999: Writing a good AI is hard, and there aren't too many devs that actually like working on that part
17:57:11 <jez9999> maybe NoAI could be the branch focussed on competition etc
17:57:26 <Diadem> I mean you can say the development is focussed on that... But realistically. We still don't have PBS in the main branch. Or a good autoreplace/upgrade functions
17:57:42 <Diadem> That's two things that are really needed imho
17:57:46 <jez9999> Diadem: autoreplace is ok?
17:57:47 <blathijs> jez9999: Same goes for making the game more competitive, that's a very nontrivial job...
17:57:58 <jez9999> blathijs: sure, but if accomplished it would be very cool :-)
17:58:12 <Diadem> It's just a lot of work making a game
17:58:16 <Diadem> And noone gets payed for it
17:58:50 <jez9999> i dont dispute that, i just think there's a limit to how fun it can get building big complex networks
17:58:57 <jez9999> at some point i want a challenge from another company
17:59:11 <jez9999> still you wont go bankrupt
17:59:24 <jez9999> ive dablled with the AI :-)
17:59:50 <Diadem> Well...Start with a simply patch I guess: Operating costs *= 50
17:59:53 <jez9999> but i also think the business rules need changing
17:59:56 <Rubidium> in MP you can go bankrupt
17:59:57 <Diadem> That should make the game a bit more challeging
18:00:07 <Rubidium> Diadem: for that there's a newgrf
18:00:18 <jez9999> as we were talking about earlier, Rubidium, operating costs need to be higher, rich companies have to pay dividents, etc
18:00:18 <Rubidium> that changes the base costs of almost everythinh
18:00:27 <jez9999> otherwise if you get a good start going bankrupt takes about 100 years
18:00:37 <jez9999> we need a way to have to constantly make money or be in trouble
18:00:38 <Diadem> It's not construction costs, it's the running costs taht should go up
18:00:57 <jez9999> a good AI is part of that but not the whole solution
18:00:57 <Rubidium> Diadem: also influencable by a newgrf
18:01:10 <Diadem> Basicly once you have a line it effectively amkes 100% profit. That's just insane
18:01:49 <blathijs> 19:57:57 < jez9999> blathijs: sure, but if accomplished it would be very cool :-) <-- That's something entirely different then yelling stuff like "main devs dont give a damn about that :-("
18:01:57 <Rubidium> Diadem: happens in the real world too
18:01:57 <jez9999> another thing i'd change is setting the default subsidy multiplier to about 10, anything less is rarely worth doing
18:02:18 <Patrick`> it should not be profitable to lay a long line to a 50ton/month primary industry and have one train wait 6 months for a load.
18:02:19 <Phantasm> Subsidy multiplier at 10 would break the hell lose.
18:02:30 <jez9999> blathijs: well im afraid ive suggested quite a few things that would make things more competitive, main devs havent exactly worked with me on them :-)
18:02:33 <jez9999> so i do come to that conclusion
18:02:35 <Rubidium> Diadem: in the real world most companies are forced to run less profitable lines
18:02:45 <Diadem> tbh I wouldn't even use it at 20 multiplier... those lines are simply to short to bother with
18:02:47 <Patrick`> we're reluctant to modify the gameplay
18:02:51 <Patrick`> even if bigmaps did that
18:03:00 <jez9999> Phantasm: really? subsidies only last for a year
18:03:08 <jez9999> you have to rush-build a track
18:03:10 <Phantasm> Diadem: Select as hard as possible settings and you'll know why.
18:03:13 <blathijs> jez9999: I'd invite you to write down a proposal with changes, find a programmer to implement them, and then we can see if things improve
18:03:22 <Diadem> Phantasm: I've played on hard often enough
18:03:25 <jez9999> blathijs: i write patches.
18:03:30 <Phantasm> Diadem: Hard is NOT really hard.
18:03:40 <jez9999> i also propose stuff on the forum
18:03:40 <blathijs> jez9999: The problem with these kinds of changes is that they're probably only useful when applied at the same time
18:03:42 <Phantasm> Diadem: I mean the hardest possible custom settings you can pick from everywhere.
18:03:43 <Diadem> bah I played the OLD TTD on hard often enough... OTTD is much easier than TTD
18:03:56 <blathijs> jez9999: That makes part 2 of my suggestion an easy job (finding a programmer ;-p)
18:04:06 <Phantasm> Diadem: Such settings that AIs at highest intelligency etc won't ever make profit.
18:04:21 <jez9999> blathijs: it's less motivating when you know it wont get into the main trunk though. nobody else will work with me on it
18:04:22 <Diadem> Phantasm: I never play with AIs anyway
18:04:26 <jez9999> much more difficult that way
18:04:41 <Phantasm> Diadem: Neither do I really.. Anyway, if you try the hardest possible settings, you'll see what the subsidies do.
18:04:54 <jez9999> isnt the default 1.5x on hardest? :-)
18:05:01 <blathijs> jez9999: I can't deny that it's not so trivial to find a motivated dev willing to help you out improving and applying patches, unfortunately...
18:05:09 <Diadem> Phantasm: On hard it's 1.5 which is pointless for only 1 year and a very short route
18:05:28 <Phantasm> Diadem: Actually even 1.5 matters.
18:05:30 <jez9999> blathijs: i would be such a dev but will they give me SVN commit access? :-)
18:06:26 <Diadem> Phantasm: Or are you talking about not just difficulty settings but also changing patches to make it harder?
18:06:29 <jez9999> it's all very well me posting a patch for some better business rules on the forum but if it doesnt get into any main codebase, it's depressing
18:06:35 <jez9999> and very few people get to experience it
18:07:02 <Rubidium> that's because very few people write good patches
18:07:05 <Phantasm> Diadem: Difficulity, map settings and reasonable patch settings.
18:07:11 <Belugas> those programmers who made good enough a job at writing patches are usually devs right now
18:07:31 <Rubidium> and *if* a patch is so worse that I'd spend more time on it to get it to trunk than to write the feature myself, I'm not even considering it
18:07:45 <jez9999> Rubidium: i wrote a good patch
18:07:48 <Belugas> and jez9999, the least that can be said about your patches is that they do not reach the required level
18:07:50 <jez9999> you said "no" and gave me no justification.
18:07:51 <Diadem> Phantasm: One thing about OTTD is that patches make it easier compared to TTD. Like, for example, being able to build an entire stretch of diagonal railroad at once
18:08:11 <Diadem> Phantasm: And autoreplace. And longer trains, better pathfinding, presignals, etc, etc.
18:08:20 <jez9999> im talking about my map colours patch, it's as simple as it gets and only improves the game
18:08:22 <Diadem> All good changes, but they do make the game eve neasier
18:08:22 <Rubidium> jez9999: no, you asked for my personal opinion
18:08:36 <jez9999> Belugas: i dont deny that my other one is not good enough yet
18:08:37 *** lobster_MB has joined #openttd
18:08:39 <Prof_Frink> Diadem: OTOH, newgrfs like DBSet, USSet and UKRS have rebalanced costs to make it harder
18:08:39 <Phantasm> Diadem: Autoreplace, presignals, better pathfinding etc don't matter at start.
18:08:54 <Belugas> other "ones" you mean...
18:09:22 <Belugas> jez9999, i saw the map color one. I did not liked it. I prefer the way the colors are right now
18:09:39 <jez9999> i dont get that :-) they're not good right now.
18:09:45 <jez9999> how can you like blue player being the same as water??
18:09:52 <Belugas> YOU think they are not good
18:09:59 <Belugas> YOU changed them to YOUR liking
18:10:14 <jez9999> YOU think they are, i wonder how many people do
18:10:16 <Belugas> but there is no reason why it should go in trnk
18:10:25 <jez9999> maybe some vote process
18:10:26 <Prof_Frink> I agree with jez9999. The current way is bad.
18:10:42 <Rubidium> jez9999: so when I like OpenTTD to be all purple, I should just commit it?
18:10:52 <Phantasm> Very low towns, industries, min loan, max interest, high running costs, normal breakdownds, 1.5 subsidy, high cost of construction, fluctuating economy, hostile city council's attitude. Sub-arctic, mountainous terrain, high sea level, very rough smoothness, snow line heigth 2.
18:10:59 <Phantasm> Something like that.
18:11:05 <jez9999> Rubidium: i dunno how it works, it seems to be a bit random. bjarni tends to 'just commit' his stuff as do other devs
18:11:22 <Belugas> jez9999: how old is ottd? And just NOW, it's unbearable? come on...
18:11:29 <jez9999> i didnt say unbearable
18:11:34 <jez9999> im saying this makes it better
18:11:43 <Rubidium> jez9999: might look like that, but that isn't the case
18:11:44 <dih> everybody sais that about their patches
18:11:49 <jez9999> i think most people would prefer the new colours
18:12:02 <dih> every body sais that about their stuff too
18:12:19 <yorick> I would like new colors, but not in that way, it makes the whole map darker
18:12:19 <jez9999> dih: and some people get 'their stuff' in trunk.
18:12:21 <Belugas> ok, little secret about users: they will ALWAYS applaude new stuff, no matter waht it is
18:12:29 <yorick> while I only want a changed blue color
18:12:43 <jez9999> you didnt say "YAPF is good for you, but why should it go in trunk?"
18:12:46 <dih> jez9999: no - _they_ dont get their stuff into trunk
18:12:52 <Diadem> Phantasm: very few towns actually makes the game easier
18:12:53 <yorick> **attention: Belugas reveald his secret about being a dev!***
18:13:02 <dih> _the devs_ accept _their_ patch and put it into trunk :-P
18:13:02 <Phantasm> Diadem: In what way?
18:13:21 <Diadem> Less towns to demolish :)
18:13:27 * Belugas remembers seen devs patches been rejected a lot before going in....
18:13:35 <Diadem> I really need only one town on my map, preferably in a corner
18:13:39 <Belugas> don't thuink it is an easy process either
18:13:44 <Phantasm> I'm talking about starting up with those settings.. Not the case 10-15 years later.
18:13:46 <dih> Diadem: then make that map
18:13:56 <jez9999> can you give me a 'more competitive' branch on the OpenTTD SVN server then?
18:14:03 <jez9999> it doesnt have to be the main trunk :-)
18:14:10 <Phantasm> I can agree that once you get started, no matter the settings, you can't go back down.
18:14:19 <Rubidium> dih: there are quite some dev's patches that have been rejected
18:14:20 <dih> jez9999: make a IN thread in the forums
18:14:31 <Noldo> jez9999: you can make a branch on your own svn server if you feel like it
18:14:41 <Diadem> Phantasm: Ah. Well then we are agreed aren't we :)
18:14:53 <dih> Rubidum: i am actually supporting 'the dev's here - at least i am trying to
18:14:55 <jez9999> yeah but who decides about the main server
18:14:59 <Diadem> Phantasm: I agree that starting up is quite challenging under those settings. But once you're going it reduces to easy mode really
18:15:16 <Diadem> (And btw, I have started under such settings, succesfully)
18:15:35 <jez9999> so, im asking the devs to consider it :-)
18:15:45 <dih> they already said no afaik
18:15:51 <Phantasm> Diadem: Easy yes, but with those settings it is still quite a much slower even after the start.
18:15:51 <yorick> the how manyth time, it is/
18:15:56 <Belugas> and they will say it again
18:16:09 <yorick> we've got 2 converstations going besides eachother ^^
18:16:21 <Phantasm> Keeps the game interesting as you don't have too much money so fast.
18:16:59 <Phantasm> Also that gives a point of not doing excessive amount of tracks. If you have say 500 long route on those settings, it'll cost a forture.. Adding few more tracks costs another fortune.
18:16:59 <dih> whatever you start today will not live any longer than any other IN
18:17:17 <Diadem> Phantasm: Anyway my current goal is to see how far I can take a network. My ultimate goal is to transport every industry on a 1024*1024 map to the same place
18:17:23 <jez9999> the MiniIN branch still technically exists :-)
18:17:38 <yorick> argh * ignores ph and dia*
18:18:30 <jez9999> there was talk of a 'community' IN
18:18:32 <jez9999> i kind of like the idea
18:18:47 <jez9999> basically an IN with patches that are democratically decided on
18:18:47 <yorick> and it already exists, and is called "trunk"
18:18:56 <jez9999> nonsense, there is zero democracy there :-)
18:19:09 <jez9999> a few people, like me
18:19:23 <yorick> who fixes bugs coused by patches that are "democratically decided"
18:19:34 <jez9999> yorick: the few people, like me
18:20:08 <Diadem> yorick: gotta love IRC 'eh? Always fun 3 different conversations in one channel :)
18:20:19 <Rubidium> problem with INs is that they die and usually pretty quickly
18:20:21 <jez9999> ah but we could have a committee
18:20:27 <jez9999> and if people drop off then others are appointed
18:20:33 <yorick> and who exactly would that be?
18:20:35 <jez9999> then it wouldnt die so easily
18:20:41 <Rubidium> furthermore the quality of those INs is usually very bad
18:20:47 <yorick> you're basically recreating trunk this way
18:20:56 <jez9999> there's a major difference
18:20:58 <Phantasm> Diadem: 3 isn't much.
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18:21:01 <yorick> patches made by the public, a few reviewers...
18:21:04 <Phantasm> Diadem: 20 at a time on same chan is good.
18:21:11 <jez9999> 1) trunk doesnt have patches that arent 100% stable and tested
18:21:11 <Rubidium> jez9999: yes, that trunk is stable, and that your IN is not
18:21:19 <jez9999> 2) trunk doesnt have patches the devs dont personally like
18:21:25 <jez9999> they're the two things i'd like to change
18:21:31 <jez9999> yeah, sure, but that's ok
18:21:37 <Rubidium> and the IN will most likely not load savegames made in previous versions
18:21:39 <jez9999> they have 2 different functions
18:21:50 <jez9999> but for example my map colour change is 100% stable
18:21:53 <yorick> that IN would also not include patches the committee basically doesn't like
18:22:02 <jez9999> if the majority of users wanted that in it could get in
18:22:06 <yorick> people always say that about their patches
18:22:26 <Diadem> Dude.... the main trunk will always contain those changes the devvers like. That's the nature of devs.. That they make the game
18:22:29 <jez9999> yorick: the whole idea is that there would be a rule that the committee didnt decide
18:22:31 <Diadem> kind of comes with the job
18:22:37 <jez9999> they basically took a list of patche submissions and took votes
18:22:40 <Diadem> If you dislike it become a dev yourself
18:22:43 <yorick> they would be committing patches agains their will
18:22:51 <yorick> and quit being committee
18:23:00 <yorick> and *poof* no committee anymore
18:23:05 <Rubidium> jez9999: in what way is a committee different than the current 'committee of devs'?
18:23:06 *** Diadem is now known as Di|gone
18:23:30 <jez9999> Rubidium: they have a set of rules that includes 'your personal opinion doesnt matter when it comes to deciding on which patches get in'.
18:24:09 <Rubidium> oh, so when my patch follows some guidelines it goes in without asking?
18:24:15 <jez9999> no, it goes to a vote
18:24:24 <Rubidium> so personal opinion matters
18:24:30 <jez9999> public opinion matters
18:24:36 <Rubidium> voting == personal opinion
18:24:50 <yorick> jez9999, you're one of 2
18:24:51 <jez9999> yeah, personal opinion _of many people_
18:24:58 <jez9999> ie. the whole userbase
18:25:00 <yorick> the creator of the idea also liked it
18:25:04 <jez9999> anyone who wants to vote
18:25:11 <Rubidium> jez9999: 99.9% doesn't bother voting
18:25:28 <Rubidium> and then, what qualifies as a user?
18:25:43 <jez9999> have a registration system
18:25:50 <Dominik> for any project (and also games) someone has to decide what will be done and what won't. someone has to shape that project based on their experience and personal opinion. not everyone will like it but but too many cooks spoil the broth. unlike with closed source projects you could always start your own project based on OpenTTD.
18:25:50 <jez9999> there already is one; tt-forums
18:26:27 <jez9999> Dominik: yes, but that person may be using one of several systems to determine what goes in
18:26:32 <jez9999> im proposing a different system
18:26:47 <Dominik> start your own game project then
18:27:27 <jez9999> does Owen Rudge ever talk anymore?
18:27:31 <jez9999> anyone know how i could contact him
18:27:42 <blathijs> orudge: jez9999 wants to talk to you
18:27:45 <Prof_Frink> I heard him last night
18:28:02 <Sacro> orudge: and you never shut up
18:28:05 <blathijs> jez9999: Your ideas are actually pretty ok, in theory. In practice, things just won't work like that, unfortunately...
18:28:07 <Dominik> this is not a commercial project and your not putting any money into it. if you don't like how it is, do it differently yourself. but you can't force anyone (the OpenTTD devs) to work on any patches that they don't like
18:28:26 <jez9999> orudge: i'd quite like to start a community IN version of openTTD, and it would help a lot if it had a section on the tt-forums board
18:28:49 <orudge> do you really need an entire forum for such a thing? would a topic or two not suffice, for now at least?
18:28:49 <yorick> jez9999, if the public doesn't like democracy, it's basically useless
18:28:50 <jez9999> orudge: the idea would be that mature patches would be proposed for it and voted upon by registered tt-forums users
18:29:03 <orudge> I'd rather not create confusion with "proper" OpenTTD though
18:29:09 <orudge> there are enough -IN versions around
18:29:11 <orudge> that just cause problems
18:29:16 <jez9999> Sacro: does it have its own forum or a democratic vote system, and is it actively maintained?
18:29:32 <jez9999> orudge: would it create confusion?
18:29:36 <Sacro> jez9999: no, it had a topic, and it kinda fell apart around 0.5.0
18:29:39 <jez9999> you could call it 'community IN' with no openttd in the name
18:29:40 <Sacro> it got too hard to maintain
18:29:43 <orudge> jez9999: for new users, often, yes
18:29:47 <Sacro> i think community IN is lready used
18:29:50 <orudge> as they come along and see all these separate versions
18:29:52 <Sacro> wasn't the first one called that?
18:29:55 <orudge> that are incompatible with each other
18:30:08 <jez9999> 'community IN' is not used for any forum section
18:30:23 <jez9999> im talking about a new forum section like ttdpatch, openttd, etc
18:30:56 <orudge> but I'm not sure that I particularly like the idea of your project, if I'm honest
18:31:04 <orudge> many "integrated nightly"-type projects have been and gone
18:31:15 <jez9999> but my idea's kind of fundamentally different
18:31:16 <yorick> ah, lets vote to his project
18:31:17 <orudge> you're very welcome to have a topic or three on the forum
18:31:20 <jez9999> they all revolved around 1 guy building it :-)
18:31:25 <orudge> but I think a whole forum isn't something I want to give you at the moment, anyway
18:31:29 <orudge> if it becomes really popular, perhaps
18:31:33 <Rubidium> jez9999: MiniIN was a multi-person thing
18:31:45 <yorick> raise hand if you like it!
18:31:57 <jez9999> didnt get enough of a critical mass though
18:32:07 <jez9999> szeparate forum area might get more of a dedicated community
18:32:11 <jez9999> one thread doesnt tend to
18:32:13 <Rubidium> jez9999: it did get to the critical mass to kill itself
18:32:21 <yorick> hmm...107 people are agains it :)
18:33:22 <Rubidium> yorick: thanks for holding the vote. For what I've seen it was completely fair and nobody has obstructed it.
18:33:23 <dih> yorick: ask in #openttdcoop
18:33:56 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12519 /branches/noai/ (13 files in 5 dirs):
18:33:56 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add: added AILog with Info(), Warning(), and Error()
18:33:56 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add: redirect AI outputs to the AI Debug GUI to show it per AI, in a clear way ingame (no more need for stderr viewing)
18:33:56 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: NOTE: it still does output to stderr, but on an other DEBUG() level (depending on the message).
18:34:01 <dih> IN's just dont tend to live _that_ long
18:34:30 <Patrick`> mmm, the miniIN had lots of cool patches
18:34:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12520 /branches/noai/projects/ (openttd_vs80.vcproj openttd_vs90.vcproj): [NoAI] -Fix r12519: of course I forget to regenerate MSVC project files (bah, MSVC.. always MSVC... who uses MSVC?!)
18:35:08 <Rubidium> the whole problems with INs is that once they get 20 to 30 patches they simply die because they've become unmaintainable
18:35:21 <jez9999> Rubidium: you dont seem to have been listening to my proposal
18:35:25 <jez9999> maybe i didnt explain it properly
18:35:37 <Patrick`> jez9999: he gets paid to listen to you, you know
18:35:43 <jez9999> it basically would get continually repatched from scratch, and patches would be added/removed based on constant voted
18:35:50 <dih> jez9999: i am pretty sure Rubidium has read enough of your proposals
18:36:13 <dih> all devs in here also have lives
18:36:14 <yorick> that looks very labor-intensive and unmaintainable
18:36:19 <dih> so what they do on OpenTTD is free time
18:36:34 <blathijs> What? Free time? Where?
18:36:34 <yorick> they seem to have a lot of :p
18:36:38 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12521 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_abstractlist.hpp ai_company.hpp): [NoAI] -Change: make the style of end-of-line doxygen comments be the same for the whole AI API.
18:36:56 <dih> yorick: what appears to be on the surface aint what is underneath
18:37:33 <yorick> that line really needs one ^^.
18:38:02 <dih> jez9999: as for all your proposals
18:38:08 <blathijs> While you're at it, might as well capitalize it as well :-)
18:38:08 <dih> just look at the number of IN's around
18:38:28 <dih> just look at how many are actively maintained
18:38:38 <dih> check how long they have been around for
18:38:41 <jez9999> dih: that's like comparing saddam hussain's dictatorship with Finland's democracy
18:38:47 <jez9999> they're both leaderships, but one is democratic
18:38:51 <Mirrakor> hm.. can I do something against the synchronisation errors in multiplayer?
18:39:02 <dih> jez9999: you seem to talk bull crap
18:39:20 <Rubidium> jez9999: so you can as non-politician vote directly for every law?
18:39:46 <dih> jez9999: you know the best thing you can learn here
18:39:53 <Belugas> youhou! democracy in motion!
18:39:54 <dih> is accepting leadership :-D
18:40:04 <jez9999> thanks, but nobody offered it to me
18:40:08 <dih> and the 'leaders' are the devs
18:40:29 <dih> so you can suggest, but dont expect
18:40:39 <Rubidium> jez9999: you haven't answered my question
18:40:43 <jez9999> Rubidium: well, yeah. it doesnt work well with regular democracy as laws are very complex, but with openttd patches...
18:40:56 <jez9999> combined with a userbase that is inherently interested in openttd
18:41:02 <yorick> good ones are also very complex
18:41:09 <jez9999> but the ideas behind them arent
18:41:19 <jez9999> you're voting on the ideas
18:41:26 <dih> jez9999 another thing is - asumptions are bad
18:41:32 <Rubidium> jez9999: the ideas behind laws are very easy too, and there are very easy laws to vote for
18:41:32 <yorick> the ideas behinds laws aren't, are they?
18:41:43 <yorick> the contents are what makes a law complex.
18:41:48 <dih> i doubt that many people here will be able to grasp what actually goes on behind the scenes of OpenTTD
18:42:05 <jez9999> unless they're implementing the patch
18:42:23 <dih> because if they do they can once and for all stop the nagging
18:42:31 <Mirrakor> another question sorry: Is it possible to exchange some goods between a truck station and a train station?
18:42:37 <jez9999> i'd say most laws in a parliament are much more complex than an openttd patch
18:42:46 <jez9999> law in parliament: 50 pages of text
18:42:48 <yorick> try transfer & unload, Mirrakor
18:42:55 <jez9999> openttd patch: the patch does x, y, and z. should it go in?
18:43:11 <yorick> jez9999: idea behind a law: 1 page
18:43:18 <dih> jez9999: just look at coding guidelines
18:43:28 <dih> as that can already be a reason for deniying it
18:43:37 <jez9999> dih: in the trunk, yeah
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18:43:41 <jez9999> we're not talking about the trunk
18:43:48 <Patrick`> Mirrakor: you know stations merge, rigth?
18:43:48 <Belugas> dih, jez9999 does not know waht is code style, for starter :(
18:44:01 <jez9999> Belugas: heh, i do now
18:44:05 <jez9999> i had that hammered into me
18:44:08 <yorick> he didn't speak to you!
18:44:24 <dih> jez9999: register openJezTTD
18:44:25 <Mirrakor> Patrick`: not sure - I just clicked the transfer button and afterwards clicked unload... :)
18:44:40 <dih> (where you might already fail ^^)
18:45:00 <dih> but dont expect anybody from here to follow
18:45:06 <jez9999> i could do with tt-forum tho
18:45:08 <yorick> (where you certainly fail ^^)
18:45:12 <dih> well - perhaps you could get yorick if you give him svn access :-P
18:45:30 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12522 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_log.hpp: [NoAI] -Fix: forgot to comment one struct
18:45:39 <dih> jez9999: start something before wanting to shoot over the mountains
18:45:46 <yorick> but not for committing patches against my will, dih
18:46:05 <Mirrakor> hm.. now it said transfered (and showed an amount of euros.. but where is it now?
18:46:20 <dih> Mirrakor: there are wiki pages
18:46:33 <jez9999> probably need to re-apply the patches in the communityIN on a weekly basis
18:46:36 <dih> people dont just write that drivel for decoration
18:46:47 <jez9999> also if the author didnt update the patch to be compatible it couldnt go in
18:47:05 <dih> jez9999 you can discuss your "IN' in #jez_out
18:47:14 <Mirrakor> dih: I'm perfectly fine if you give me keywords :)
18:47:21 <Rubidium> jez9999: so you force people to start over with their games every week, just to get bugfixes?
18:47:29 <dih> Mirrakor: you had the keyword all the time
18:47:36 <dih> you just did not use your thinker :-P
18:47:38 <Mirrakor> my Problem is that I try to translate it back and then search for another keyword
18:47:50 <Dominik> have you ever tried applying more than 3-5 patches to a working copy?
18:48:02 <Mirrakor> no I searched for things like "exchange" and got 0 results :/
18:48:03 <jez9999> if the bugfix makes the game incompatible with a previous build, that's exactly what they have to do with the trunk
18:48:04 <Rubidium> jez9999: just removing/adding patches when people have not updated them causes savegames to be incompatible between 'releases'
18:48:14 <Rubidium> *unless* you start adding savegame compatability code like a mad man
18:48:16 <jez9999> well yeah that would be a last resort
18:48:26 <jez9999> but i guess occasionally it would happen
18:48:38 <yorick> it happens all the time in trunk
18:48:40 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
18:48:46 <Rubidium> jez9999, from personal opinion: s/occasionally/usually/
18:48:49 <jez9999> the aim is to have a good functional game, not so much savegame compatibility
18:48:58 <Rubidium> jez9999, from personal experience: s/occasionally/usually/
18:48:58 * yorick made a typo at first ;(
18:49:02 <peter1138> A[A[Ad savegames and newgrfs and ...).
18:49:11 <dih> jez9999: go to the ChrisIN page
18:49:30 <Rubidium> jez9999: without savegame compatability people will whine like hell and you would generally not get a wide user base
18:49:47 <jez9999> they do have compatibility
18:49:57 <jez9999> they just finish their previous game in the previous version :-D
18:50:00 <Rubidium> MiniIN started to gain momentum once the people got assured that savegames could be loaded in later versions of the MiniIN.
18:50:14 <Rubidium> jez9999: so you force people to play with bugs that are fixed in a newer version.
18:50:32 <jez9999> as i said before, i hope incompatibility wouldnt happen often
18:50:43 <Rubidium> and quite a lot of people tend to play games over weeks, month or years
18:50:43 <jez9999> if certain patches were unreliable that would probably be a candidate for not committing them
18:50:55 <Dominik> why don't you just start your own "patched version" for a start and if it runs well you could make it into the kind of project you're talking about.
18:51:19 <Rubidium> jez9999: the after about 1 month of inclusion in MiniIN 50-80 % of the patch authors stopped maintaining their patch because "it is in MiniIN"
18:52:05 <jez9999> well, yeah, it would be nicer if there were some devs prepared to work on the trunk as well as a 'cutting edge' version
18:52:09 <jez9999> many projects have such a setup
18:52:18 <jez9999> with openttd there is the trunk and cutting edge isnt really maintained
18:52:55 <jez9999> if it were people wouldnt need INs
18:52:57 <Rubidium> jez9999: too few good developers and too little free time for the good developers
18:53:13 <jez9999> Rubidium: ahh, 'good' developers :-)
18:53:19 <jez9999> nice way of screening me out
18:53:29 <Rubidium> jez9999: any idea *how* many custom versions of the Linux kernel there are?
18:53:29 <jez9999> 'good' being subjective
18:54:00 <Rubidium> jez9999: that has a 'stable' and 'IN' version
18:54:26 <Rubidium> and *many* *many* different custom flavours of that vanilla stable version because the IN doesn't contain what they like
18:54:53 <jez9999> linux is vastly more complicated than openttd, and that is a bad comparison
18:54:56 <Rubidium> just because their stuff doesn't get (or isn't) into the linux kernel
18:55:43 <yorick> jez9999, as said may times before, set up openjezTTD
18:55:51 <jez9999> when i say vastly, i mean about 10,000 times more
18:56:08 <Rubidium> jez9999: then show me a project being as complex as OTTD that has the setup you want
18:56:18 <Rubidium> or rather, show me at least 10
18:56:37 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
18:56:42 <jez9999> but that was a handwavey thing
18:56:47 <Rubidium> I'm pretty fair, because many would be several hundreds for me
18:57:07 <jez9999> cPanel has a stable and EDGE
18:57:39 <jez9999> well i think openttd trunk is a bit too conservative
18:57:44 <jez9999> i wouldnt call it edge
18:57:51 <yorick> ok, go maintaining your own
18:57:55 <yorick> and stop complaining here
18:58:16 <yorick> get to #jez_out, and get your community there
18:58:20 <Noldo> consevative in what way?
18:58:32 <yorick> not many patches committed
18:58:52 <Bjarni> <jez9999> well i think openttd trunk is a bit too conservative <-- what do you mean?
18:59:31 <yorick> Bjarni, get yourself a copy of the logs
18:59:37 <Rubidium> jez9999: cPanel cannot be compared with OpenTTD because cPanel is much bigger than OpenTTD. It's even proprietary
19:00:19 <jez9999> so, openttd is an even better candidate for an edge version
19:00:51 <Rubidium> jez9999: there is a paid staff; there isn't a paid staff for OpenTTD
19:00:57 <jez9999> i'd also say Firefox has quite a few patches committed
19:01:03 <jez9999> although it is more conservative than i'd like
19:01:04 * Belugas thinks that edge version sounds like laboratory in jez9999's vocabulary
19:01:13 <Rubidium> Firefox is also HUGE and has paid staff
19:01:22 <Sacro> Rubidium: like your mum
19:01:38 * Maedhros doesn't see how the fact that OpenTTD is smaller than cPanel means it should be more unstable
19:01:52 <jez9999> it should be easier to keep stable
19:02:15 <jez9999> and anyway it doesnt have the be the main trunk, it can be a branch labeled 'UNSTABLE AS HELL' for all i care
19:02:24 <Maedhros> heh. have you ever tried to track down a desync?
19:02:40 <jez9999> if it breaks, you take the trunk and reapply patches until it breaks
19:02:49 <jez9999> when it breaks, that patch is at faulkt
19:03:14 <Rubidium> jez9999: have you ever tried to make a desync reproducable enough to test it that way?
19:03:36 <jez9999> because it would be called 'unstable' :-)
19:03:54 <jez9999> that's the idea of edge versions
19:04:29 <Rubidium> so the idea of an edge version is NEVER making it stable?
19:04:33 <Belugas> that is really a funny way to solve stuff :D
19:04:41 <jez9999> no, but the idea is that it isnt a priority
19:04:48 <jez9999> the priority is new and exciting features
19:04:57 <Rubidium> jez9999: that means NO stables
19:05:06 <jez9999> depends how you define stable
19:05:16 <jez9999> maybe not stable enough to hold an openttdcoop multiplayer
19:05:20 <jez9999> but that's not the focus of the build
19:05:22 <Rubidium> well, something that doesn't crash and desync every few minutes
19:05:29 <jez9999> not the focus of the build
19:06:39 <Rubidium> what does edge lead to then when it does not lead to stables?
19:06:44 <Belugas> jez9999, that's not EDGE, it's butchery
19:07:16 <yorick> how many times, it's said that he should get himself openJezTTD?
19:07:44 <yorick> stop complaining about a free project, please, if you want it better, make your own
19:07:47 <Patrick`> jez9999: you think that it'd be personally more beneficial for you if the system was run this way? there's a patch you wanted but saw fall into disrepair?
19:08:17 <dih> jez9999: take it to #moocows
19:08:25 <mrfrenzy> I will be happy to be betatester of openJezTTD
19:08:31 <yorick> patrick`, there've been multiple
19:08:35 <mrfrenzy> when will the first rc be out? ;)
19:08:58 <yorick> subsidiaries, PBS, signals on bridges, ...
19:09:01 <jez9999> it's already out, it's on my hard drive actually
19:09:20 <Rubidium> because it will NEVER lead to a stable, because the priority is new and unstable features, not making it stable in any way
19:09:34 <Rubidium> and a RC would mean some kind of stableness
19:09:35 <jez9999> why do you place so much importance on stability?
19:09:46 <jez9999> that's what trunk is for
19:09:47 <stillunknown> Because it is important.
19:10:08 <Belugas> game that always blow up is a very good feature...
19:10:15 <jez9999> and it wouldn't happen much anyway. most patches arent *that* bad
19:10:21 <Belugas> Hey, do not need to bur report it, it is EDGE!
19:10:40 <jez9999> no, bug report it, but the difference it's in the edge, and not in the trunk
19:10:43 <dih> sounds like jez had a wee bit too much of MS
19:10:43 <stillunknown> Obscure crashes are hardly desire-able.
19:10:47 <Belugas> jez9999, you really do not know waht you are talking about.
19:10:50 <Rubidium> jez9999: yeah... me finding *big* bugs in patches that are apparantly tested months in an IN
19:10:58 <jez9999> Belugas: i think i do, but ok.
19:11:13 <Belugas> if you did, you would not say stuff like you do
19:11:15 <Rubidium> the big problem about INs is that people do not complain about bugs and/or crashes
19:11:23 <Rubidium> or at least not complain as much
19:11:36 <Rubidium> which then causes people to think they patch is flawless
19:11:40 <jez9999> Rubidium: did i say you had to integrate patches in the edge IN?
19:11:47 <jez9999> you wait until you want to, or never do
19:12:05 <jez9999> you carry on with the trunk the same as now
19:12:11 <yorick> or 1/bool true/!false/!0/!bool false :)
19:12:12 <Rubidium> I'll just feed you some patches
19:12:28 * yorick would slap jez9999, but is not being violent today
19:12:58 <yorick> I wasn't violent today :)
19:13:25 *** ben_goodger has joined #openttd
19:13:26 <stillunknown> jez9999 is like those people who think one memory error per hour is good.
19:13:58 <jez9999> Bjarni: he probably means page faults
19:14:02 <yorick> very small soft windows!
19:14:17 <stillunknown> I mean a bit that didn't hold it's value, or something like that.
19:14:34 <Rubidium> jez9999: actually stillunknown knows the difference between memory errors and 'page faults'
19:15:19 <blathijs> Actually, page faults are supposed to happen IIRC, while memory errors means you need to get new hardware :-)
19:15:32 <jez9999> blathijs: sigh, it sucks when you have to explain jokes
19:15:59 <stillunknown> In some cases you actually want to create massive amounts of page faults.
19:16:10 <Bjarni> I said that I forgot what "memory errors" is.... indicating a memory error
19:16:24 <Bjarni> but you guys appears to miss that point :/
19:16:34 <jez9999> Bjarni: comedy doesnt work in here
19:17:39 <stillunknown> jez9999: The fact remains that in C(++) you have to be very careful, and even the thought of letting bugs slip is not good.
19:17:41 <yorick> ...too...complicated...lost...one...hour...of...sleep...sleepy...zzz...ZzZ...zZz...zzz...ZZZ.......
19:17:44 *** Dominik has joined #openttd
19:18:12 <stillunknown> Not to mention merging with mainline becomes a huge problem.
19:18:16 <jez9999> stillunknown: i take the point, but i think it could be managed without having the level of strictness that trunk has.
19:19:40 <Rubidium> jez9999: really got no idea how much work it is to hunt bugs
19:19:46 <Rubidium> and especially to hunt desyncs
19:20:05 <Belugas> no, he does not, since he just offer patches, no bug fixes...
19:20:27 <Belugas> maybe if he did, his opinion would be VERY different
19:20:41 <Dominik> you're still discussing that ridiculous idea?
19:20:43 <Rubidium> the best way to improve your 'goodness' status is fixing bugs
19:20:53 <jez9999> i guess chrisIN is pretty close to what i want, just could do with being more democratic :-)
19:21:05 <jez9999> and also chrisIN will probably die sometime, and with a committee it would be less likely to
19:21:09 <jez9999> so they're the two main points
19:21:17 <Rubidium> jez9999: START you IN
19:21:29 <jez9999> still based around 1 person
19:21:38 <Rubidium> well... find someone who wants to help you
19:21:45 <Belugas> well... find some good souls :)
19:22:04 <Rubidium> 3 persons are not enough to keep an IN running with 30+ patches applied
19:22:38 <Belugas> Let see... chris, gonozo and jez
19:22:49 <Dominik> hey jez9999, i'll help you!
19:22:53 <Dominik> ...at only 50 Euro/hour
19:23:24 <yorick> I would help you for 100 euro/hour
19:23:45 <yorick> with a max of 1 hour/day, 3 days/week, if more, double the costs
19:23:54 <dih> yoyick: you are too young
19:24:11 <Belugas> henkie, INtegrated version of different user patches
19:24:54 <stillunknown> jez9999: You're better of trying to get a single feature into trunk.
19:25:11 <jez9999> stillunknown: heh, wow, that's saying something
19:25:28 <henkie> am i looking for an AI which helps me build, so i can just watch the trains move :)
19:25:49 <henkie> maybe a self-learing thingie
19:25:55 <henkie> i would call it SkyNet
19:26:05 <Belugas> you'll havge better chance of learning through multiplayer games :)
19:26:22 <jez9999> you can't compete properly in the current version of OpenTTD
19:26:30 <henkie> Belugas, i dont want to learn, i want the AI to learn :)
19:26:35 <jez9999> i'd love multiplayer more if you could put a competitor out of business
19:27:28 <jez9999> maybe you should be able to shoot competitors
19:27:34 <dih> then play that and give peace
19:27:56 <henkie> or combine OpenTTD with GTA :)
19:28:12 <jez9999> there are no other cars on the road in openttd
19:28:37 <jez9999> although running over opponents' busses is fun
19:28:41 * dih ignores jez9999 - annoying kid
19:28:43 <Belugas> who votes for kicking jez9999?
19:28:55 <Prof_Frink> Belugas: on IRC, or reality?
19:29:14 <Belugas> i take that as a Yeah!
19:29:34 <yorick> wahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
19:29:34 <Di|gone> don't you need operator status in this universum, to kick someone in reality? :)
19:29:36 <henkie> hehe, he went and told his mom i bet
19:30:20 *** Di|gone is now known as Diadem
19:31:41 <henkie> now i dont have anything to read anymore :(
19:32:05 <henkie> is there a Changelog for beta5 -> rc1?
19:32:45 <Belugas> yes, on the forum's announcement of RC1
19:32:49 <Rubidium> see the rc1 changelog
19:32:50 <Belugas> and on the packages too
19:34:59 *** Dominik has joined #openttd
19:35:07 *** Aerandir has joined #openttd
19:35:12 * Belugas listens to Orgy - Blue Monday
19:42:16 <yorick> shh...dih wants to speak
19:43:49 <Belugas> by the way, did anyone ran some of these industry tests , apart dih?
19:44:37 <Belugas> and of course apart Rubidium, Maedhros and Phantasm
19:49:24 * yorick pats Rubidium, Maedhros
19:49:56 <yorick> but Phantasm could bit
19:51:52 <Belugas> and Phantasm is very usefull and not lazy as we had first tough of. There has just been a lot of misunderstanding
19:52:07 <Belugas> just for the record...
19:52:44 * Phantasm bites yorick again. ;P
19:52:45 <Belugas> fantasms are never straight... alwasy devious..
19:53:11 <Phantasm> yorick: You run a test as well and I might not bite you anymore in the future. :)
19:53:16 <Belugas> feqwww...two new features and a release...
19:53:18 * yorick gets Phantasm a rabies-immunity
19:54:24 <dih> fibble wibble foo and bar went to a....
19:54:24 <Bjarni> so how many of you were late today?
19:54:39 <Bjarni> or works/studies with somebody who were an hour late
19:54:42 <Sacro> Bjarni: i was, think i might be pregnant
19:55:18 <dih> Sacro: you WERE late and think you ARE pregnant?
19:55:30 <Bjarni> Sacro: that reply was right on time though
19:56:05 *** Osai`off is now known as Osai
19:56:18 <Bjarni> Sacro: who is the lucky fellow who boned you?
19:56:27 <Bjarni> I don't want to know :P
19:56:57 * Bjarni hands a minute to Osai
19:56:58 <dih> that line just came to the wrong time
19:56:59 <Osai> first training today after my sickness
19:57:50 <Osai> noro is something really evil
19:57:59 <dih> sacro on his/its own is unhealthy
19:58:07 <Bjarni> you were possessed by Sacro?
19:58:14 <ln> Bjarni: does danish use the "som" thing in indirect questions?
19:58:27 * yorick are possessed by ourselves
19:58:53 *** Osai is now known as Osai^away
19:58:58 <Bjarni> but Sacro always finds different purposes for stuff he is around
19:59:23 <Bjarni> ln: err.... what kind of question is that???
19:59:29 <dih> [21:59] * [jez9999] (virtua@87-194-212-214.bethere.co.uk): Jez
19:59:29 <dih> [21:59] * [jez9999] #openttd.ChrisIN #openttd.noai
19:59:29 <dih> [21:59] * [jez9999] galapagos.oftc.net :The Netherlands
19:59:29 <dih> [21:59] * [jez9999] 87.194.212.214 :actually using host
19:59:29 <dih> [21:59] * [jez9999] End of WHOIS list.
19:59:57 <dih> as if that would help :-P
20:00:15 <ln> Bjarni: for example, "Vet du vem _som_ bor här?"
20:00:41 <Bjarni> maybe Sacro's boyfriend is a sadomasochist and that's why Sacro cries
20:00:57 <dih> in which case Sacro would enjoy it
20:01:13 * dih just does not want to know
20:01:35 * dih puts on a life suite and jumps
20:01:57 <Bjarni> <ln> Bjarni: for example, "Vet du vem _som_ bor här?" <-- that's not an indirect question (or Danish for that matter)
20:02:11 <dih> that is not indirect danish?
20:02:28 <ln> Bjarni: Jeg vet, men jeg taler ikke så fint danske.
20:02:29 <Bjarni> but I guess it's possible to use "som" in an indirect question
20:03:23 <Bjarni> <ln> Bjarni: Jeg vet, men jeg taler ikke så fint danske. <-- it's better than some of the people who applies for Danish citizenship o_O
20:03:26 <ln> Bjarni: but my point is: in swedish it is wrong to omit that "som", i.e. "Vet du vem bor här?" is wrong.
20:04:05 * glx points Bjarni and dih to the topic
20:04:21 <Bjarni> I think I would say "Ved du hvem der bor her?"
20:04:52 * dih points out to glx that he did not use another lang
20:05:12 <Bjarni> but maybe dih failed to use UTF-8
20:05:31 <glx> no but I see lot of non english words
20:06:02 <Bjarni> it would appear that he is studying Danish for some reason
20:06:15 <ln> i'm definitely not studying Danish.
20:06:48 <Bjarni> I use it on a daily basis
20:06:57 <dih> eny language could be considered a nice language
20:07:30 <Bjarni> <dih> eny language could be considered a nice language <--- it wouldn't take long to make a list of exceptions
20:07:39 <Bjarni> but it would take forever to make it complete
20:07:49 <dih> [22:07] <dih> appart from swiss german <-- i have already started the list :-D
20:08:13 <dih> that that is even unpleasent to speack
20:08:17 <Bjarni> you can change that line
20:08:44 <dih> <german swearing sensored>
20:08:44 <glx> canadian french is weird ;)
20:08:45 <Bjarni> actually German isn't that bad
20:08:59 <dih> we can at least be very creative with words
20:09:37 <dih> no that would get any half way decent person confuddled
20:09:39 <Bjarni> but tricky to understand for non Welsh people
20:09:59 <Bjarni> and remember placenames
20:10:03 <dih> jasdlkfjaslkdfj asdlkja sdlkfjasd
20:10:11 *** O^Brien has joined #openttd
20:10:26 <dih> as far as i am concerned it could :-P
20:10:33 <Bjarni> it doesn't sound Welsh at all
20:10:45 <dih> they never write what they say
20:10:48 <Bjarni> sounds more like dihish
20:10:49 <dih> they never say what they read
20:11:10 <Bjarni> it's hard to tell the difference between those two
20:11:48 *** Osai^away is now known as Osai
20:11:53 <Sacro> Rubidium: thanks for the help ^^
20:12:10 <Bjarni> Rubidium is the father?
20:12:20 * dih was thinking in a similar direction
20:12:26 <Sacro> no, i coulnd't remember the name of element number 37
20:12:43 <Bjarni> I have that on a shirt
20:13:13 <Bjarni> actually I have a shirt with the whole periodic table
20:13:19 <orudge> that's not so bad, then.
20:13:23 <Bjarni> and the radioactive elements glow in the dark :D
20:13:32 <orudge> if you were to go around wearing a shirt saying "orudge", it'd be a little bit disturbing
20:13:49 <Bjarni> it was actually a present but I might have bought it myself if I had seen it in a shop
20:14:42 <Bjarni> "put orudge in the Oven" <-- now that would be disturbing to put on a shirt
20:15:03 <Bjarni> basically that's why I don't have a shirt like that
20:15:05 <dih> what is black and knocks on the glas from the inside
20:15:18 <orudge> somebody actually did that not so long ago
20:15:23 <orudge> they were sentenced recently
20:15:30 <dih> what is green and turns red when you press a button?
20:15:42 <orudge> a baby covered in green paint in a blender?
20:15:46 <Belugas> [16:08] <+glx> canadian french is weird ;) <-- buwhahahah!!!1
20:16:10 <dih> and what is green, and stays green when you press a button?
20:16:11 <Belugas> french canadian is better than french from france :D
20:16:26 <Belugas> dih, a rotten clitoris?
20:16:29 <dih> frog in a blender running for it's life :-P
20:16:33 <orudge> Canadian French is vaguely weird
20:16:36 <glx> it's closer to the "original"
20:16:38 <orudge> from the little of it I heard when in Toronto
20:16:51 <orudge> (which was a fair bit more than I expected to hear, I must admit)
20:16:52 <Belugas> toronto??? french????
20:17:09 <dih> my inocent mind has been ... yuck
20:17:20 <Bjarni> French is the Gaul guys trying to speak Latin and it didn't go well
20:17:20 <glx> they still use some 17th century words
20:17:23 <ln> Belugas: maybe it was a tourist from france.
20:17:34 <dih> Belugas: what should your kid think of you ^^
20:18:32 <Bjarni> but why is he a bad daddy?
20:18:35 <Belugas> glx, that is quite true :)
20:18:48 <dih> [22:16] <Belugas> dih, a rotten clitoris? <-- that's why ^^
20:19:09 <Bjarni> now Belugas is bad and rotten
20:19:11 <Belugas> and we do not have included as much english words as you do. although i do not know if it's good or bad...
20:20:10 <Bjarni> including English words in a language that's not related to English is likely a bad thing
20:20:14 <glx> Belugas: worse you adapt english expressions in french
20:20:26 <Sacro> NAME ME EUROPEAN COUNTRIES ><
20:20:29 <Belugas> no, it's call evolution, Bjarni
20:21:04 <Sacro> wtf is the big one between latvia and ukraine
20:21:11 <Belugas> glx: but i have to admit, some are absolutely stupid. like transforming CD to cdrom
20:21:30 <Sacro> and tis not european ><
20:22:31 <Sacro> right then, to the left of that
20:22:33 <Maedhros> did you just try to tab-complete Belarus? :p
20:22:43 <Sacro> it worked with Rubidium :p
20:22:56 <Sacro> Belugas: you are not quite a country :(
20:23:19 <Belugas> although my colleagures would say i have an ego as big :S
20:24:01 <Sacro> wtf is that little bit between belgium france and germany
20:24:07 <Sacro> i don't recall there been a country there
20:24:35 <Maedhros> (probably not spelt right...)
20:24:47 <dih> cédérom <--- not an english word :-D
20:24:51 <Sacro> right, i can't recall any of the former yugoslavian ones
20:24:56 * dih points towards the topic ^^
20:25:46 <Sacro> it won't acccept yugoslavia
20:25:51 <Sacro> well that's what my globe says is there
20:26:06 <dih> i read 'great' - not 'correct'
20:27:28 <Belugas> dih, of course it's not an english word. That was how our "brillant" Ministry of French Sanity decided that CDROM should we written. By using phonetic writing. Which is an insanity, in my view
20:28:12 <Belugas> the only good stuff they come up with is the "Courriel" word. For EMail. Courrier Electronique -> courriel. Nice one
20:28:17 <Ammler> is the the binary openttd the only one which is plattform dependend, so if you like to have a cross plattform portable bin, you need just openttd.exe and openttd?
20:28:39 <Diadem> 36/46 countries and only 5 min left
20:28:42 <Belugas> Ammler, don't get it...
20:28:42 <dih> Ammler: that is described in the readme
20:28:54 <glx> Belugas: or clavardage for chat
20:29:27 <Belugas> but "butineur" for browser was a real laught
20:31:18 <dih> and Ammler: yes - you only need the different executables
20:31:38 <Ammler> no problem to rename them?
20:31:59 <Bjarni> You got 41 out of 46 European countries. <-- didn't finish :(
20:32:53 <Bjarni> my biggest problem was spelling all the names in English
20:34:17 <Bjarni> in fact I missed Luxenbourg (or however you spell it) because I couldn't figure out how to spell it :(
20:34:53 <dih> Bjarni: i am dissapointed
20:35:02 <dih> i write such a readme and nobody reads it :-(
20:35:37 <Bjarni> it should be named "read me and go to jail" and a whole bunch of people from the internet will read it
20:36:58 <Bjarni> only 13,5% miss Iceland
20:37:06 <Bjarni> like Iceland is more important or something
20:37:26 <Prof_Frink> People remember the supermarket
20:38:09 <Bjarni> Herzegovina <-- this is a name I got right in the like 5th attempt :s
20:38:40 <Bjarni> almost 60% miss that one.... the question is how many knows it but can't spell it :P
20:39:41 <Bjarni> nobody should miss the big countries like France, Germany and England
20:44:30 <Sacro> Bjarni: i know it, but couldn't spell it
20:44:44 <Sacro> i started with iceland, did the top
20:44:51 <Sacro> and then started at portugal and went right
20:45:44 <SmatZ> hmm yeah "Bosna i Hercegovina" is hard to spell in English...
20:46:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> You got 44 of 46 European countries
20:46:50 <Digitalfox> Sacro say otorrinologista
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20:47:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> i couldn't in any way remember the country that monte carlo is in...
20:47:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> and i missed albania
20:48:01 <bowman> you got san marino? :P
20:48:19 <Sacro> andorra, san marino, monaco, vatican
20:48:22 <SmatZ> but I can't spell Vatikan :-x
20:48:39 <bowman> yeah got all those except san marino hehe
20:49:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> i had to google for the german names, click on the wikipedia link, and there click on the "english" link to find out how to spell some countries
20:49:12 <SmatZ> You got 43 out of 46 European countries. :-x
20:50:06 <SmatZ> but I cheated a bit with translations :-x
20:50:07 <Patrick`> periodic table = win
20:50:34 <Patrick`> je suis une chemiste
20:50:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> i'll suck at that
20:50:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> half the names are completely different than in german
20:51:09 <SmatZ> Can't connect to database
20:51:18 <Patrick`> did someone slashdot it?
20:51:18 <Prof_Frink> Patrick`: I got 116/118 on the periodic table
20:51:25 <Prof_Frink> Patrick`: hammer refresh.
20:51:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> like what is the translation of "Zinn", or "Wolfram"
20:51:40 <glx> missed all the small ones (monaco, andorre, vatican city,...)
20:52:03 <SmatZ> liechtens... very hard to spell in English :-x
20:52:11 <SmatZ> also Bosnia i Herzegovina
20:52:22 <Eddi|zuHause2> Liechtenstein... it's always written like this...
20:52:29 <glx> I got liechtenstein right
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20:53:02 <glx> but couldn't spell netherlands
20:53:28 <SmatZ> yeah, I cheated to find that 's' in google
20:53:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> it's always plural
20:54:06 <Eddi|zuHause2> wtf is the english name of Kalium (K)?
20:55:04 <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause2: alanblanchflower.co.uk/stuff
20:55:14 <Prof_Frink> You will find a very useful file.
20:55:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> this game sucks
20:56:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> i'm at 13/118 after 4 minutes
20:56:46 <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause2: Grab the file. It will help.
20:56:52 <Eddi|zuHause2> what is Bor (B) ?
20:57:35 * Maedhros has a periodic table on the wall above his desk ;)
20:57:57 <Eddi|zuHause2> wtf? it doesn't accept Aluminium
20:58:08 <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause2: American
20:58:26 * SmatZ should watch StarTrek once again
20:58:27 <Prof_Frink> Similarly, they don't accept S
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20:58:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, the problem is how to figure out which letter to randomly leave out :p
20:58:52 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause2: maybe double ll ?
21:00:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> SmatZ: no, they leave out the i in -ium
21:01:26 <SmatZ> it doesn't accept Unununium :)
21:03:06 <Patrick`> got the periodic table
21:03:40 <Patrick`> they cut and run after darmstadt's element
21:03:49 <Patrick`> the higher-ups get named after scientist
21:03:54 <Patrick`> like bohrium or seaborgium
21:08:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> 28/118 final result
21:08:23 <Eddi|zuHause2> this translation thing is really a problem
21:12:38 <Patrick`> I hate games like thise, they waste my time
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21:18:04 <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't even know half the presidents
21:18:16 <Sacro> i wish we could half the president
21:18:32 <Eddi|zuHause2> that is a different question ;)
21:20:04 <Eddi|zuHause2> You got 13 out of 43 Presidents.
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21:23:42 <Bjarni> that thing takes too much time :(
21:24:07 <Bjarni> and I missed 2 US states (couldn't spell Mass. and missed Maryland)
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21:37:33 <Eddi|zuHause2> bah... spanish numbers are difficult... i always mix them with french
21:38:39 <ln> uno dos tres quatro cinque seis siete otto nueve dieci?
21:38:52 <ln> (how many of those are french or italian?)
21:39:00 <Patrick`> uno dos tres quatro cinque cinque seis
21:39:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> it doesn't accept quatro for example
21:39:12 <Patrick`> how many of those are mexican instead of spanish
21:44:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> i couldn't figure out 17-19 and 30-90
21:46:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12523 /branches/0.6/src/ (newgrf_text.cpp ottdres.rc.in): [0.6] -Backport from trunk (r12486): wrong copy right data in Windows binaries.
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21:57:38 <Diadem> Doesn't it go awefully fast without pause?
21:57:59 <Diadem> I'm used to pausing all the time. Whenever I think, but even while building
21:58:20 <Diadem> How long does 1 game last?
21:58:39 <Sacro> |<-------- this long --------->|
21:58:57 <Diadem> That's a measure of length, not time
21:59:02 <Diadem> are we assuming c=1 or something?
21:59:14 <Sacro> but i can still do the kessel run in 5
21:59:39 <Rubidium> Diadem: could be more than a fortnight
21:59:56 <Rubidium> but usually it's less
22:00:06 <Diadem> doesn't time always run at the same speed?
22:00:34 <Sacro> nope, it depends on how fast you are moving
22:00:43 <Sacro> time slows down as you approach the speed of light
22:00:52 <Diadem> Sacro: That's nothing. A photon does it in 0... In his own timeframe, ofc
22:00:53 <Rubidium> it just depends on how often people are playing and whether the game gets restarted at a specific point in time
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22:01:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> i'm 3 countries short in south america
22:01:16 <Sacro> Rubidium: or a non specific point in time
22:01:17 <Diadem> But how many OTTD years are there in a real-life hour?
22:01:25 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause2: Surinam?
22:01:50 <Sacro> that's the pereodic table
22:02:05 <Diadem> Better than 3 countries short in North-America )
22:02:22 <Rubidium> Diadem: a tick is 30 ms, there are 74 ticks in a day -> rest is math
22:02:42 <Diadem> Rubidium: So 2220ms for a day. That sounds about right I guess.
22:02:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> a day is roughly 2 seconds
22:03:11 <Diadem> So one year is about 880 seconds
22:03:39 <Diadem> So 4.44 years in an hour
22:03:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> Diadem: they have all the carribean islands in north america
22:04:22 <Diadem> Eddi|zuHause2: That's not North America imho. North America is Mexico + USA + Canada
22:09:40 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12524 /branches/0.6/ (5 files in 3 dirs): [0.6] -Update: some documentation.
22:13:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> only 5 out of 12 greek gods, because i can't spell again
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22:19:06 <Eddi|zuHause2> i'm not significantly better with the roman gods...
22:29:19 *** anhedral is now known as dih
22:31:45 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12525 /tags/0.6.0/ (11 files in 4 dirs): -Release: the April Fools' edition of OpenTTD.
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22:37:42 <Prof_Frink> And half an hour early
22:38:01 <Patrick`> in solviet russia, april fools you!
22:38:40 <Sacro> Rubidium: can't it have 0.7.0 ;)
22:39:13 <Sacro> or is that the actual release :o
22:39:56 <Prof_Frink> Sacro: I'm not sure.
22:40:07 <Prof_Frink> It *looks* like an actual release.
22:40:19 <Prof_Frink> But, it is labelled as April Fools
22:40:21 <Sacro> Prof_Frink: yes, i[m quite convinced too
22:40:25 <Sacro> looking at the last commits
22:41:02 * dih scratches sacro's head too
22:41:09 <Sacro> dih: i'd get yourself checked
22:41:41 <Prof_Frink> Five! Four! Three! Two! One! OpenTTDs Are Go!
22:41:57 <Sacro> Rubidium: don['t announce it thoguh
22:42:01 <Sacro> i wanna start a server up
22:42:36 <Sacro> or at least don't post the report until 00:00 GMT
22:42:43 <Sacro> cos then nobody will belive you anyway
22:44:11 <Prof_Frink> Sacro: That's not for an hour and a bit yet
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22:52:12 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12526 /tags/0.6.0/projects/determineversion.vbs: -Fix: determining the version failed on Windows.
22:55:20 <SmatZ> people here who use Fedora... all my admire goes for you!
22:58:10 <SmatZ> I am having hard times with it :-x
22:58:38 <Prof_Frink> < Sacro> Use Arch.
22:59:21 <SmatZ> I have to use Fedora because we use it in school and I want to have as little compatibility problems as possible :)
22:59:47 <Sacro> without being a testbed for new stuff
23:01:07 <peter1138> CentOS still has the drawback of being RPM based.
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23:16:00 <Diadem> Which directory should I play newgrf files?
23:16:04 <Diadem> I can't browse it seems
23:16:47 <Ammler> Diadem: mydocs/.openttd/data/
23:18:09 <Ammler> how is it called in windows? OpenTTD ?
23:20:17 <Diadem> for me? D:/Games/OpenTTD/data :)
23:20:52 <glx> better put them in mydocs\openttd\data
23:21:22 <glx> that way you can have multiple openttd versions, but only one dir for grfs
23:23:22 <Diadem> mydocs? where do I find that? :)
23:23:55 <Ammler> Diadem: depense on your local settings
23:24:06 <glx> c:\documents and settings\<username>\...
23:24:18 <Diadem> You meant *that* mydocs
23:24:23 <Diadem> Didn't know Ottd put stuff there
23:24:29 <Diadem> annoying.. I hate programs who spam my c-drive
23:27:04 <Ammler> it you think grf is spam, you shouldn't install them
23:28:03 <peter1138> Unsolicitied commercial email from ottd!
23:29:41 <Diadem> Ammler: I didn't mean that
23:30:01 <Diadem> Call me old-fashioned, but I'm off the opinion that programs and games should keep track of their settings and savegames etc in their own directory
23:30:06 <Diadem> not at some other random place on your hard-drive
23:30:32 <peter1138> acceptable with dos, but modern OSes are multi-user
23:30:57 <Diadem> I have a "Touch my pc and die" policy
23:31:34 * Sacro likes his ~/.openttd{,-svn,-beta} folders
23:31:40 <peter1138> i have a 'touch my pc and all my stuff is locked away from you' policy
23:31:54 <peter1138> well, assuming no boot cds are used...
23:31:57 <Sacro> i have a 'touch my pc and get infected' policy
23:32:08 <Prof_Frink> Heh, my stuff is mainly ~/src/openttd/*
23:34:49 <SmatZ> because skype won't run without staticqt on amd64
23:35:17 <Sacro> i don't know anyone with a 64 bit phone number
23:37:11 <Ammler> peter1138: have you crypted home?
23:38:11 <Diadem> peter1138: oh my really private stuff is locked away behind a 40-word PGP password :)
23:38:36 <Diadem> still though... Don't touch my pc... My settings and programs and stuff aren't passworded ;)
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23:55:07 <Diadem> those newgrf trees don't go invisible
23:56:09 <Ammler> why do you include tree grf and like to have them invisible?
23:56:21 <Diadem> I didn't, the game did
23:56:30 <Ammler> but you can set a patch setting
23:56:37 <peter1138> there's no reason for them no to
23:56:57 <Diadem> I have the patch setting on
23:57:01 <Diadem> but trees are still visible
23:57:10 <Diadem> (in the #openttdcoop game)
23:57:28 <peter1138> transparent or just normal?
continue to next day ⏵
