IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-03-23
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00:00:58 *** Osai is now known as Osai^zZz
00:02:55 <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause4: Nothing realy wrong. I like how explicit the language is.
00:03:22 <Eddi|zuHause4> i still have no idea what you are referring to...
00:04:48 <Zuu> I was refering to that if you have an if-then-else statement the true-block do not have an ending ;, but the false block should have a ;.
00:07:11 <Zuu> One thing it lacks though in explicitnes is that you don't have do declare that a method throws exceptions as you must in Java. Which is a good thing.
00:10:05 <Eddi|zuHause4> you got that wrong... ; separates statements, but if-then-else is one single statement, so it does not have ; inbetween, only at the end
00:11:33 <Eddi|zuHause4> the ; does not belong to the statement itself
00:11:49 <Eddi|zuHause4> it is a separator for sequences of statements
00:12:02 <Eddi|zuHause4> which is why you can leave out the ; before "end"
00:12:50 <Eddi|zuHause4> "end" is not a statement, so it does not need to be separated from the previous statement
00:16:46 <Zuu> Okay, yea kind of what my mental idea was, but I would not have expressed it that clear. Thanks :)
00:25:55 <nicfer> one question... the town growth in temperate is determined by the amount of passengers transported or by the amount of active stations?
00:36:16 <Eddi|zuHause4> the second, actually ;)
00:38:27 <nicfer> hmmm okay... would be more fun for making cities grow if it was the first way
00:38:53 <Eddi|zuHause4> feel free to provide a patch ;)
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00:41:18 <nicfer> and also while most big is the city, it should require other cargos, example at 500 mail and at 1000 goods
00:53:18 <nicfer> something like in the spinoff
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02:47:25 <Digitalfox> OMFG 0.6 Branch =0
02:48:18 <Digitalfox> I go to the disco to celebrate my 2 years of relationship with my girlfriend and find the 0.6 branch.. Nice Work guys =0
02:48:34 <Digitalfox> I have to go more times to the disco lol
02:50:41 <DaleStan> Maybe then we'll get more 0.6 branches?
02:50:57 <a1270> Discos still exist? I thought for sure they were banned.
02:52:02 <Digitalfox> well in portugal we call it "discoteca" so i thought the translation would be disco..
02:54:04 <Digitalfox> I guess Nightclub is a better translation =0
02:55:24 <Digitalfox> The strange thing is that i have 24 and on over 1000 folks i think i was the older one :\
03:03:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> it gets worse ;)
03:23:16 <Sacro> Digitalfox: Discoteque i think
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03:23:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> surely not with 'th'?
03:25:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, it's spoken the same way in german
03:27:52 <Eddi|zuHause2> like the nordic god of thunder (Thor) is spoken the same as the football goal (Tor)
03:29:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> you know what's worse than people who quote the entire post to just say "thanks"?
03:30:12 <Eddi|zuHause2> people who make that a double-post :p
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05:38:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> haha, it's completely white outside ;)
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06:56:56 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12397 /trunk/src/timetable_gui.cpp: -Codechange [FS#1856]: enumify widget number for time tables. Patch by Phil Sophus.
07:35:40 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12398 /trunk/ (8 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange [FS#1770]: Move toolbar related code to it's own little neighbourhood. Based on a patch by Dominik.
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07:44:33 <mrfrenzy> If you like it I suggest you do some encouraging in the thread
07:45:20 * Rubidium gives it a 10% chance to succeed (and that's probably even too optimistic)
07:46:13 <Wolf01> that guy is a legend... if only he can finish all his good patches
07:52:12 <peter1138> Hmm, proper snow :o
08:16:47 *** jez is now known as jez9999
08:16:50 <DorpsGek> jez9999: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 4 days, 11 hours, 28 minutes, and 20 seconds ago: <Bjarni> lol
08:25:33 <jez9999> what is the purpose of INVALID_STRING_ID?
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08:26:19 <jez9999> seems like it gets passed to things like ShowErrorMessage
08:26:23 <yorick> all these things have an INVALID type, so they added one to STRING_ID aswell
08:27:45 <jez9999> i cant seem to find a string in english.txt that matches up with it
08:27:49 <jez9999> so im wondering what it prints out
08:33:14 <jez9999> does seem to just cause a blank error
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10:29:33 <DorpsGek> yorick: LordAzamath was last seen in #openttd 5 days, 22 hours, 6 minutes, and 17 seconds ago: <LordAzamath> (::)::(::)
10:38:24 <jez9999> i need to create a dynamic array for an OpenTTD patch i'm developing
10:38:34 <jez9999> i'm going do be, during a loop, adding certain entries to it
10:38:53 <jez9999> i'm not going to be able to know how many entries there will be, so i need to be able to keep adding to it dynamically
10:39:02 <jez9999> what's the standard way of doing this in Openttd?
10:39:18 <jez9999> do we have some dynamic array class we use in C++? is there some example dynamic array code you can point me to?
10:39:35 <jez9999> is that typically used in the openttd codebase?
10:39:42 <jez9999> im wanting to stick to the openttd coding style
10:40:23 <Maedhros> it's used in a few places, yes
10:40:33 <Maedhros> but then so is malloc / realloc
10:41:56 <jez9999> Tefad: hmm interesting
10:42:04 <jez9999> i come out with vector or deque, for that
10:42:41 <jez9999> i guess it might be easier to get help on list, tho
10:42:45 <jez9999> more people are likely to use it
10:43:29 <Tefad> list is a doubly linked array
10:43:39 <Tefad> it's good for when you're processing arbitrary amounts of data
10:44:02 <Tefad> say.. you query a database and you could have 5 results come back.. or 5000...
10:44:20 <jez9999> or... someone drags over a matrix of 4 squares... or 400
10:45:16 <Tefad> if you know the size of the area before you populate memory, you should use something like deque or vector
10:45:47 <jez9999> not really, because im not storing info on every square
10:45:55 <jez9999> only squares that fulfil a certain criterion
10:46:09 <jez9999> im building that store up as i go along
10:46:20 <Rubidium> then you want a map of some sort and not a list/array/vector
10:47:08 <jez9999> that assumes i need to find an element by key
10:47:29 <Rubidium> well, if you can't use a pool then yes
10:47:39 <jez9999> why cant i use a pool?
10:48:07 <Rubidium> you said "not really" after I said to use a pool
10:48:18 <jez9999> i was responding to Tefad
10:48:23 <jez9999> <Tefad> if you know the size of the area before you populate memory,...
10:48:37 <Tefad> if you're building something by hand and you don't know how many you're going to end up with, use list as intermediate
10:48:43 <Tefad> then you can pass it as whatever you want
10:48:56 <jez9999> i must confess ive never heard of a deque
10:51:24 <jez9999> might that be better than a list for this purpose
10:51:33 <jez9999> i think in C#, the List<> basically is a deque
10:51:49 <jez9999> in fact im not sure what the difference between a list and queue is; i always thought List preserved order too
10:51:49 <Tefad> lists have great use of pointers
10:52:01 <Tefad> deque/vector usually allocated contiguous memory
10:52:20 <jez9999> ok i'll go for a std::list then
10:52:27 <jez9999> next thing: in C#, i happily dont worry about this
10:52:32 <Tefad> lists have more memory overhead
10:52:39 <jez9999> in c++; do i need to worry about memory management when using std::list?
10:52:50 <Tefad> vectors/deques suck when you keep growing your memory size.
10:52:50 <jez9999> what's the process of using it
10:52:58 <Tefad> (lists allocate each element separately)
10:53:26 <jez9999> what's the c++ overall process
10:53:29 <Tefad> jez9999: you can use a list just like you would use a vector, it's transparent
10:53:36 <jez9999> in C# it's basically new List<>... add stuff... then forget
10:53:51 <jez9999> in c++ is there a destructor or something you must call?
10:54:26 <Tefad> not unless you're doing fancy stuff
10:54:50 <jez9999> i always thought in C++ you had to manually dispose of objects to avoid mem leaks
10:56:52 *** Wolf01 is now known as Wolf01|AWAY
11:00:58 <Maedhros> if you allocate them with new, then you have to delete them
11:01:36 <Maedhros> in the case of things like containers, the memory they allocate will be freed when the container goes out of scope and the destructor is called
11:04:26 <Keir> does anyone know where I can rent an openttd server from?
11:06:40 <Keir> i'm sure i can find one cheaper :P
11:07:05 <jez9999> paypal's fees will be that much :-)
11:07:31 <jez9999> what do you want it for anyway
11:07:45 <Keir> to host an openttd server with :)
11:08:00 <jez9999> i know but do you have a bunch of people who definitely wanna play on it?
11:08:06 <jez9999> or are you gonna put it online and hope for the best? :-)
11:08:23 <Keir> well there's me and a mate who play regularaly and other than that, to hope for the best :)
11:09:14 <jez9999> i wonder whether anyone's gotten the openttd server working on CentOS...
11:11:13 <jez9999> there's no downloadable RPM build of openttd
11:11:45 <jez9999> im just investigating, Keir
11:11:51 <jez9999> i'll need to install it on CentOS
11:11:58 <jez9999> wonder if anyone's done it
11:12:02 <jez9999> what version of the server do you want
11:12:15 <jez9999> hmm that'll need compiling
11:12:30 <mrfrenzy> jez9999: just compile it, it's a breeze
11:12:44 <jez9999> on 'doze, i had to download tons of stuff to compile it :-)
11:12:49 <Rubidium> jez9999: that's because nobody ever has been bothered enough to make rpms
11:13:23 <mrfrenzy> atleast on debian you would only need to install the build-essential package and you have all tools needed to build it
11:15:56 <Maedhros> Keir: i'm sure you could get a good deal from orudge (zernebok.com) :)
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11:18:56 <yorick> keir: you know about FREE server hosting services, myottd.net?
11:20:06 <Keir> the site doesnt load lol
11:20:40 <yorick> its the same server where the ottd runs upon
11:20:40 <jez9999> does it let you run whatever build you want?
11:22:26 <yorick> hmm...jez is very cheap aswell :)
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11:51:26 <jez9999> i can connect to it via telnet
11:51:39 <jez9999> yet openttd just says 'SEVRER OFFLINE', seems to make no attempt to connect when i add it
11:53:26 <jez9999> i enabled it, and can connect to other servers
11:56:17 <jez9999> it's made apparently no attempt to connect to it
11:56:23 <jez9999> the server is accepting connections just fine
11:56:43 <jez9999> does my server need to be in the list that openTTD gets its "Find servers" from before it will connect to a server?
11:58:36 <yorick> only when server_advertise is on
12:05:07 <jez9999> according to Wireshark, it's not even sending out a UDP packet!
12:05:11 <jez9999> when i click on refresh server
12:05:21 <jez9999> i wonder if that whole 'add server' functionality is kaput
12:09:29 <yorick> maybe company_info is done using a tcp packet?
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12:25:26 <jez9999> how often is the master server list refreshed
12:29:31 <Rubidium> new servers: immediatelly, servers going away that notify the ms: immediatelly, servers going away without telling it: within 5 minutes, updating the game stats: every 5 minutes.
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12:29:58 <Rubidium> client rerequesting the server list: whenever the user clicks the button (or opens the window)
12:48:27 * yorick wants to see extra flags so he can go on with flags in client list
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13:00:11 <yorick> I would say that [FS# 1868] is a feature request instead of a bug
13:07:05 <yorick> Jez9999: was it you that was working on the train-tracktype-upgrade?
13:08:18 <yorick> I said something like it was already done, didn't I?
13:13:27 <yorick> the difficulty options window lacks a close button
13:16:55 <Volley> i just tested "Timetable based separation patch" ( needed some manual merging with my YAPP patched version), played around, had fun, but basically i think all this seperation stuff could go way more easily... shouldn't a "wait until full loaded or other train of shared order list arrives"- option in the train orders do?
13:17:18 <glx> yorick: there's a cancel button
13:17:37 <yorick> which isn't on the top left, while I like buttons to be on the top left
13:17:46 <yorick> its just...consistency that's missing
13:18:05 <glx> there was a close button, but it has been removed because it confused many players
13:18:15 <yorick> every other window has a close button
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13:18:49 <glx> no you have an explicit apply or dismiss
13:19:36 <yorick> then remove the cancel button and readd the close button
13:20:15 <yorick> even confirmation windows have a close button ;)
13:21:15 <yorick> don't you have an explicit apply or dismiss on confirmation windows?
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13:25:17 <yorick> LordAzamath! You've returned!
13:25:40 * yorick goes celebrating and dancing
13:26:31 * yorick presses pause button for music
13:26:40 <yorick> how do you mean, 'almost'?
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14:38:12 <Pinchiukas> I tell a truck to go to a lorry station near a sawmill that produces goods, load up some boxes, go to a town and unload them, but it doesn't get any money for that, what gives?
14:39:00 <yorick> have you set overload?
14:45:07 <shodan> Pinchiukas: easiest thing is not to set 'unload'
14:47:59 <Pinchiukas> ok now everything seems fine, but there is a bunch of goods standing in the station
14:48:15 <yorick> which means your station didn't accept goods
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15:04:29 <Maedhros> because you don't have any houses near the station that accept goods
15:09:59 <Pinchiukas> ok, why would the local authority not allow me to build a bus station or a lorry station?
15:15:49 <yorick> hmm....we need official openttd MP servers!
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15:30:13 <yorick> and now you appear here?
15:30:44 <yorick> yes, people can remove parts that connect stations to make them appear joined afterwards
15:31:17 <yorick> btw, this channel is english only
15:31:38 <ln> yes, and may i also say that this channel is ENGLISH ONLY
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15:33:32 <yorick> I've looked at the bits for houses
15:34:05 <RichK67> i would guess i could steal bit 15 of m2... since i cant see there being > 32768 towns
15:34:48 <yorick> ah yeah, it would probably fit
15:35:35 <yorick> lets see, m6 bit 2 is free if newhouses is activated
15:35:50 <RichK67> but ill do whatever Rubidium suggests, since otherwise ill get complaints - heck, i get them anyway
15:35:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> <yorick> @calc 2048*2048/32768 <- what exactly should this calculation yield? "average 'square tiles' per town"?
15:35:59 <yorick> if not activated, m7 bits 7..4 are free
15:36:17 <RichK67> cant assume its not activated
15:36:31 <yorick> m6 bit 2 is free if newhouses is activated
15:37:02 <RichK67> yup, and m6 bit 2 would be very nice (its the one im using elsewhere)
15:37:40 <RichK67> if newhouse.... bits 7..2 : Current animation frame (bits 5..0); bit 6 in m3
15:38:12 <yorick> you could use 2 different bits?
15:38:28 <lestat_spanish> As a question can I do to have two separate stations late the same station?
15:38:34 <RichK67> yeah - id just switch which bit to look at based on tile type
15:38:49 <yorick> lestat_spanish: I already answered it to you
15:39:13 <RichK67> slightly ugly, but my philosophy is prove it works first, then make it pretty
15:39:35 <yorick> but, can't you switch between m6 bit 2 if newhouses is activated and m7 bit 4 if not?
15:40:04 <RichK67> m6 bit 2 is *used* when newhouses in use
15:40:11 <lestat_spanish> Forgiveness was in the bathroom and was not English
15:40:37 <lestat_spanish> I am using the translator google
15:40:51 <yorick> ah, ignored that lestat guy, now, m6 bit 2 is not, landscape.html says
15:41:14 <yorick> m6 :* If newhouses is activated
15:41:14 <yorick> o bits 7..3 : Current animation frame
15:41:45 <RichK67> not in the docs im looking at... (ex-trunk)
15:41:57 <yorick> you might want to try trunk
15:42:44 <lestat_spanish> ~yorick~ Do not be so wrong
15:42:58 <RichK67> just synced to trunk... here is the quote:
15:42:59 <RichK67> * If newhouses is activated
15:42:59 <RichK67> o bits 7..2 : Current animation frame (bits 5..0); bit 6 in m3
15:43:01 <RichK67> o bits 7..2 : lift position (for houses type 04 and 05)
15:43:01 <RichK67> * bits 1..0 : tropic zone specifier
15:43:15 <yorick> wait-yes-animation frames got extended
15:43:42 <lestat_spanish> Someone throws a game?
15:44:57 <DorpsGek> yorick: Commit by frosch :: r12347 /trunk (5 files in 2 dirs) (2008-03-06 14:21:10 UTC)
15:44:58 <DorpsGek> yorick: -Feature(ette): Increase house animation frame number from 32 to 128.
15:48:10 <yorick> which basically means nothing is free when newhouses are enabled
15:48:34 <RichK67> yup, although i am sure that m2 bit 15 wont exactly be missed for a very very long time
15:49:20 <yorick> but it is possible to build that many towns on a 2048 map
15:50:31 <yorick> and what if it will go being missed?
15:50:50 <RichK67> possible, but highly improbable... as you showed, you would have to have only 128 tiles per town ie 16x8 max. call it 11 squared: minimum separation is more than that
15:51:07 <lestat_spanish> 87.223.193.135
15:51:12 <RichK67> and that assumes no space lost to edge tiles, etc
15:51:15 <lestat_spanish> Someone throws a game?
15:52:03 <yorick> and with the extra large maps patch?
15:52:32 <RichK67> doesnt increase the surface area beyond 2kx2k
15:53:10 <yorick> it makes 4096*4096 possible
15:54:17 <RichK67> there are two versions. One with "reasonable" limits (max 8192 map, max 4 Mi tiles (2^22)) that aims for trunk
15:55:00 <yorick> and that makes 8192x8192 possible
15:55:19 <yorick> weren't you saying something about thinking about future?
15:55:40 <RichK67> its obviously not an adequate solution
15:57:19 <Wolf01> hi RichK67, I noticed the screens of your new work, really nice, congratulations, I hope you'll finish it :D
15:57:51 <RichK67> its an experiment - it might not fly
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15:58:14 <RichK67> but it does look seriously cool though ;) :)
15:58:29 <RichK67> just breaks a lot of things ;)
15:58:33 <yorick> m3 bits 5432 seem exploitable
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15:59:22 <RichK67> once a house is complete, m3 is fully used for date of build
16:00:03 <yorick> I don't know how, but landscape #2 says "bit is accessed, but does not really have a meaning (e.g. owner of clear land is always OWNER_NONE)"
16:00:09 <RichK67> m3 bit 5 : bit 6 of current animation frame (see m6)
16:00:25 <RichK67> m3 bits 4..0 : triggers activated (newhouses)
16:00:57 <yorick> maybe the triggers could be compressed?
16:03:27 <yorick> you could decrease animation counter to 49
16:04:50 <RichK67> i would rather add m8, than damage someone else's developments
16:06:02 <yorick> then m8 would be a bool?
16:06:45 <RichK67> nah add a full byte, and then i would probably relocate all snow/desert related bits into it, so m8 represents all climate related info
16:07:01 <yorick> how does ttdpatch cope with extra bits needed?
16:07:31 <RichK67> this is not for patch... and wont work on it
16:07:51 <yorick> that's right, but I'm just curious
16:08:26 <RichK67> afaik, patch cannot load any OTTD game, so it cant handle what we have already
16:09:25 <yorick> no, I mean, I guess ttdpatch needs map array bits aswell someway, how do they do it, also by extending the map array someway?
16:10:14 <RichK67> no idea... ive never really paid much/any attention to their internals. its enough hassle trying to cope with the mess of newgrf
16:11:32 <Eddi|zuHause2> my "educated guess" is that [savegame wise] new data is stored in new chunks, to keep upwards compatibility for old versions that cannot understand this chunk
16:12:34 <yorick> I guess adding m8 would solve most of the problems RickK has
16:13:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> what are you trying to do anyway?
16:13:29 <yorick> then relocate density, ground type in it
16:13:40 <yorick> he's finding a free bit for houses
16:13:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, i figured that, but why?
16:14:06 <yorick> to have tropical, arctic, temperate in one map
16:14:07 <RichK67> yeah - as i say, there is climate info splattered all over the place - eg. snow is m4 bit 3..0=C in rails, m5 bit 4..2=4 in clear, m3 bit 7 in roads, etc
16:14:48 <RichK67> Eddi|zuHause2: i have a prototype working, but houses are a pain, as they use all bits
16:14:52 <yorick> we could have snow-aware default towns aswell
16:16:17 <yorick> I would say: go for m8!
16:17:02 <RichK67> my experiment expands the tropiczone to m6 0..2, where 0=temperate, 1=arctic, 3=toyland, 4=tropic normal, 5=tropic desert, 6=tropic rain
16:18:17 <yorick> do you need 3 bits for that?
16:19:46 <RichK67> its an experiment - i needed a way to store more climate info, and we already had 4 states available using the common-to-all tropiczone, so i just added one bit and redefined it
16:20:15 <RichK67> m8 would be nice, and using that 8 bit version would be cool
16:20:53 <RichK67> i could then make old and new entirely switchable: use old settings, or use m8
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16:22:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> i'm not sure what a switch like this should achieve
16:24:21 <RichK67> keeping some people happy? one side effect of the all-climate terrain is that some newgrfs that are climate dependant will get broken by it, as the TTDP newgrf wont be able to query the new climate settings correctly
16:24:25 <yorick> we could extend to toyland aswell
16:24:49 <RichK67> yeah, i noticed that - have climate as 0..2, with 4=toyland
16:25:21 <RichK67> opengfx does sprite replacement globally, i have to keep all graphics in memory at the same time
16:25:31 <yorick> grf's should be able to define 2 versions of the snow sprite: one to be used for temperate, other one for arctic snow
16:25:52 <RichK67> its already got temperate snow working
16:26:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> apo'strophe's 'should not be abu'sed
16:27:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> it has nothing to do with "pedants"... it's occasionally a big problem for non-native speakers to do on-the-fly error-compensation
16:27:17 <yorick> another problem: what industries should go where? what cargo should towns accept? which vehicles could be used where?
16:28:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> yorick: all newgrf
16:29:00 <yorick> should water & food be available anywhere? or only to be built at depots in tropic or arctic zone?
16:29:04 <RichK67> yup, my current compromise is that you get the buildings and industries of whatever is the "base" climate you select - so you either get a temperate/arctic/tropic industry set.... or, someone nice could actually produce an all-climates-industries newgrf :)
16:29:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> yorick: the default climates should not be changed, only the possibility of a combination opened
16:30:13 <yorick> that 2 answers can't really be combined ^^
16:30:34 <yorick> one is talking about base climate, other about "mixed" climate
16:30:41 <RichK67> i did once ask in the TTDP forum, but they werent too receptive to something that would only work in OTTD
16:31:57 <RichK67> the "base" climate is the one you select when you generate.... it then creates the world with that climate's attributes, but with the map painted in the other climates' terrain as appropriate
16:32:12 <RichK67> its just an experiment, so anything is up for change though
16:32:58 <RichK67> my preference would be to have all climates available, all houses of all climate available, all industries, etc... but one step at a time
16:33:49 <RichK67> and then, once it is working, you can always restrict the map back to one climate if desired
16:34:30 <RichK67> ie. the current climate selections are a subset of the whole world climate
16:35:42 <yorick> and how are maps supposed to be generated?
16:35:49 <yorick> what zone should go where?
16:36:03 <RichK67> have you looked at my screenshots?
16:36:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> yorick: those are map generator options, they should all be user-adjustable
16:37:00 <yorick> the North pole is arctic, Northen hemisphere is temperate, the southern one is desert, and the south pole is a secret toyland pinguing utopia?
16:37:01 <RichK67> ive generated the climate zones using the perlin random noise algorithms, but done in large swathes, rather than the finer terrain detail
16:37:25 <RichK67> no toyland in the auto generator
16:38:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> civ has a lot of generators for climate zones
16:38:15 <RichK67> its more a concept of concentric rings - it doesnt make sense to have arctic next to tropic without some temperate inbetween, so thats what ive created
16:38:36 <RichK67> but look at the screens
16:40:32 <RichK67> ok, ill just generate another random one, and post it
16:43:39 <RichK67> snow in temperate against tropical ... a problem not yet resolved
16:44:08 <yorick> like desert against temperate
16:44:21 <RichK67> yup, there are missing "transitions"
16:44:55 <RichK67> NB as i said earlier, its experimental (grrr... why do ppl expect completeness on prototypes!)
16:45:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> i see no real problem with snow in tropical (assuming you get transition graphics at a later point)
16:45:39 <Eddi|zuHause2> maybe with different snow lines (-1 for arctic, +1 for tropic)
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16:46:08 <RichK67> already have that changing snowline - snowline in temperate is +1 relative to arctic
16:46:18 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, i noticed ;)
16:46:39 <RichK67> yorick: my kilamanjaro has permanent icecap on the equator - its tropical
16:49:02 <yorick> there is a tropical thing inbetween desert and rainforest, isn't there?
16:49:10 <RichK67> personally, i would like to have arctic deserts (eg. Gobi), temperate deserts (Asian steppe in summer)
16:49:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> yorick: that is calculated on-the-fly
16:49:31 <RichK67> yes, TROPIC_NORMAL - ie grass
16:50:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> (if you mean the grass-desert transition)
16:50:48 <RichK67> grass-desert transition is only 1 tile of "mixed"
16:50:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> RichK67: well, with 3 bits you have 8 terrain types at your disposal ;)
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16:52:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> RichK67: also allow for newgrfs to specify what terrain number should mean something
16:52:25 <LordAzamath> a break.. gotchya
16:52:43 <RichK67> Eddi|zuHause2: ? sorry what do you mean?
16:53:12 <LordAzamath> RichK67: Did you get help from Zephyris?
16:53:13 <yorick> bare rocks, do they exist?
16:53:24 <yorick> rocks have no density? ok, thanks
16:53:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> RichK67: i mean for newgrfs to redefine terrain types
16:53:41 <Eddi|zuHause2> to mean something other than desert, for example
16:53:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> like swampland or something
16:54:07 <DaleStan> <yorick> no, I mean, I guess ttdpatch needs map array bits aswell someway, how do they do it <-- We allocate the various new arrays (L6, L7, L8) at runtime, if the config calls for it. And then use some magic I don't quite understand so all accesses to them are as fast and as efficient as if they were compile-time allocated.
16:55:08 <yorick> you have 8 arrays aswell?
16:57:15 <DaleStan> Yep. L8 doesn't do much yet, though.
16:57:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> yorick: we only have two arrays
16:57:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> the names m1..m7 are hysterical
16:57:49 <RichK67> Eddi|zuHause2: this will probably not allow newgrfs to redefine anything terrain wise, as they are all geared to overwriting the core terrain graphics, not staying separately resident at the same time
16:58:13 <LordAzamath> RichK67: Any full zoom screenies?
16:58:26 <LordAzamath> I'm interested in transition sprites :P
16:58:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> RichK67: i know, i mean the far future...
16:58:28 <RichK67> yeah, but they dont show much
16:58:49 <Eddi|zuHause2> once upon a time, in a galaxy far far away...
16:59:10 <RichK67> Eddi|zuHause2: i would have to trap the attempted relocation, and then map over my load of the newterrain sprites
17:00:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> RichK67: well, the main idea is to have anything you design now already as newgrf, to not have to add a second logic for newgrf terrains
17:01:42 <Eddi|zuHause2> a newgrf would then provide a number of available terrains, terrain graphics for each terrain number, transition graphics, and maybe a few flags how the terrain should behave (do towns need food? water? etc.)
17:01:56 <RichK67> no go. it will NOT be newgrf... it is and will be a specially prepared (and thus logically organised) sprite set... i need a strict, and predictable sprite order. newgrf does not provide that
17:03:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> why sprite order? you have n terrain sprites, and n/2*(n-1) transition sprites [nxn-triangular matrix]
17:05:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> then some house magic to figure out the proper ground sprite for each house type, and wether it is allowed on this terrain (e.g. swampland might not support skyscrapers)
17:06:08 <RichK67> because normally tropical or arctic sprites are loaded in over the temperate tiles. i need to keep all 3 sets active at the same time. to ensure that i can do a simple relocation, i can just multiply the climate 0,1,2,3 by the number of sprites in the set... i dont have to go hunting through the mishmash of newgrf junk to find what i need
17:08:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't see the problem with that, you can still address the terrain sprites by the terrain index
17:08:11 <yorick> it even allows for another rough/rocks ground thing
17:09:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> what i am trying to say, is, if you design such a complex feature, make it as flexible as you can
17:09:51 <RichK67> my point is that my design *is* simple... its newgrf that is the complicated, and not very useful thing here
17:10:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't see the advantage of hardcoding sprite numbers into the algorithm
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17:10:44 <RichK67> and i cant wait for the whines from the TTDP side of "this doesnt work with my XYZ newgrf" ... tough, sometimes for progress, the old things must be sacrificed
17:11:37 <RichK67> ok, Eddi|zuHause2, off you go and code your version then... the terrain sprites are hardcoded currently... so nothing changes
17:12:13 <Eddi|zuHause2> solution to that is very simple: only add new terrain types if a newgrf specifies them, if someone wants to add a no-terrain-type-aware grf in the intended way, he can limit it to the climate it was designed for
17:12:15 <RichK67> just take 1 look at sprites.h to see all the current hardcodign
17:12:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't think i will do any kind of coding like that ;)
17:12:53 <RichK67> getting other people's hypothetical newgrfs working is the lowest of priorities
17:12:54 * yorick feels like not getting payed attention to
17:13:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> RichK67: it doesn't have to be a priority. if the design is "right", it will "just work"
17:14:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> i just want to point your attention to the fact that people WILL request this at some point
17:15:38 <RichK67> Eddi|zuHause2: noted. and known prior. personally i dont believe in overcomplicating designs just to try to prevent something becoming obsolete
17:16:26 <RichK67> the simple approach here is to say... create an entirely new terrain system first... then worry about how old features can interface with it
17:16:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> the transition: have only default climates -> allow all climates on the same map -> allow to chose to not have all but only few climates -> allow to add my own climate ... is not that far fetched
17:16:52 <RichK67> yorick: nice m8 idea... copied to my notes, thanks
17:16:57 <Eddi|zuHause2> i am not talking about old features... i am talking about next generation features
17:17:39 <RichK67> supporting old newgrfs that dont understand the new terrain system is not next gen
17:18:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, but creating own terrain types is
17:18:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> and creating new newgrfs that understand the new terrain system
17:19:56 <yorick> newgrfs are further down the implementation list
17:20:08 <RichK67> well, that should actually already work... the new terrain graphics are loaded as ordinary sprites below the newgrf boundary, so you should be able to do normal replacements of them.... adding attributes i dont know - eg. your swamp under skyscraper thing... that may be a loooong way down the list
17:20:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, i am thinking at least 3 steps in advance ;)
17:21:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> i occasionally have problems with people not able to follow me ;)
17:21:16 <RichK67> but the (my) core terrain graphics will not be loaded as newgrf... i need to be 100% sure where they are to make display of them predictable - that is how the existing system works
17:21:46 <Eddi|zuHause2> but what is the problem with a "dynamic" lookup table?
17:22:19 <RichK67> for the moment it overcomplicates it when there is currently no need/demand
17:22:31 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, when you touch the code anyway, you can "do it right"
17:22:50 <yorick> one has to have a base to build upon
17:23:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> instead of leaving it like it is, and when later dynamicising(?) the code, you maybe miss a few instances
17:23:09 <RichK67> i dislike this "do it right"... the only thing "right" at the mo, is anything that works
17:23:51 <yorick> Eddi: do you have any coding experience? If not: then shut up about that waay down the list dynamic stuff :)
17:23:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, yes, the first prototype is always to find out "how to _not_ do it"
17:23:59 <RichK67> who is to say what is "right" anyway?
17:25:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> RichK67: well, probably not me, i just give opinions that you should already have considered yourself
17:25:18 <RichK67> its proof of concept, so it can be a bit of a dogs breakfast... .so far ive proved you can create a terrain that zones nicely, and all the graphics can be displayed at the same time
17:25:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> RichK67: yes, but at some point, you have to step out of the prototype phase
17:26:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> at that point, you should be certain what is "right", not start to think about what is "right"
17:27:01 <yorick> Eddi: do you have any coding experience? If not: then shut up about what is "right" :)
17:27:04 <RichK67> newgrf is always an irritating issue, and i have little truck with newgrf coders who whine that their precious newgrf is broken by a new development... dont whine, update it ;)
17:27:06 <jez> anyone know when Bjrani might be on?
17:27:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> the prototype phase is about getting "all" ways, and separating out the ones that are "wrong"...
17:27:23 <Eddi|zuHause2> all that is left must be "right"
17:27:37 <DorpsGek> yorick: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 4 days, 20 hours, 39 minutes, and 7 seconds ago: <Bjarni> lol
17:27:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> jez: he's probably on some kind of holidays
17:28:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> considering it's easter and stuff ;)
17:28:21 <RichK67> Eddi|zuHause2: if it was up to me, i would scrap the whole terrain system and start afresh; but i want some life, and have better things to do
17:28:35 <jez> also my openttd server has been set up
17:28:37 <RichK67> apart from that, it would break everything
17:28:50 <jez> but it isnt appearing in the openttd servers list (even tho it is set to advertise)
17:29:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> RichK67: it's always an option when doing rewrites:
17:29:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> screw the old system at first
17:29:29 <yorick> provider disables server-ing?
17:29:33 <jez> it doesnt seem to be outputting any errors about advertising
17:29:35 <Eddi|zuHause2> and then reimplement the old system on top of the new system
17:29:40 <jez> i have my own dedicated server
17:29:42 <Ammler> is there somewhere a howto for hacking the save?
17:29:48 <jez> and you can connet to and play on it
17:29:51 <RichK67> Eddi|zuHause2: yeah, i dont believe anything is sacrosanct
17:29:54 <Ammler> for fixing industry bugs
17:30:23 <jez> who administers the master openttd server list?
17:30:23 <yorick> ottd saves are compressed and such
17:30:39 <Eddi|zuHause2> jez: then you did forward TCP, but not UDP
17:30:51 <jez> im not forwarding anything
17:30:54 <jez> why would i be forwarding
17:31:02 <Ammler> yorick: well, uncompressing would be easy
17:31:13 <Ammler> how about the other things?
17:31:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> "forward" meaning "open the firewall port, an make sure the packet arrives at the destination"
17:31:39 <jez> i opened up all UDP ports for egress
17:31:52 <jez> hence you can connect to and play on the server
17:31:58 <yorick> and forwarded at router?
17:32:09 <jez> why wouldnt the router forward it?
17:32:14 <yorick> maybe only locals can play when not forwarded
17:32:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> jez: UDP is not used for the game
17:32:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> only for advertising
17:32:22 <yorick> because it's incoming, not outgoing
17:32:51 <jez> i have no reason to believe the router wouldnt be forwarding my udp packets
17:32:59 <jez> although im not sure it's possible to be sure either way
17:33:08 <yorick> if you haven't set it so, it doesn't
17:33:16 <jez> im not in control of the router upstream
17:33:30 <yorick> no, but your home network?
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17:33:45 <jez> i have a dedicated server, hosted in a professional dataserver. it runs CentOS.
17:34:08 <yorick> have you forwarded 3979 to that pc?
17:35:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> jez: if playing is possible, but advertising not, then the problem MUST be UDP
17:35:27 <jez> how can i debug the problem tho
17:35:58 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause2: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
17:36:29 <Ammler> a dedicated server should have its own ip, so no forwarding needed, I assume
17:36:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> but still the firewall must be set up properly
17:36:55 <Ammler> but you might open the firewall of the server itself
17:37:22 <Ammler> I would disable the firewall for testing...
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17:38:31 <yorick> ..and get the virusses in
17:42:26 <jez> i had only opened 3979 for ingress UDP
17:42:31 <jez> i'll try also opening 3978
17:45:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> PS: yorick: i'm not saying "i have 50 years of coding experience", but there are a few fundamental ground rules that i had quite some success with
17:46:02 <jez> dbg: [net] [NET] Resolved master.openttd.org to 81.171.98.111
17:46:02 <jez> dbg: [net] [udp] advertising to master server
17:46:12 <jez> am i supposed to see something like 'got response from master server;?
17:46:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> like: if a feature takes more than 5 lines, maybe you should spend more time on infrastructure instead
17:47:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> a well designed infrastructure allowes a lot of features with little effort
17:48:40 <Eddi|zuHause2> jez: i can only say what i said before, your UDP port is not open
17:50:52 <jez> but what am i meant to see as output from openttd?
17:51:13 <yorick> exactly that, only "Recieved confirmation from master server", I think
17:53:43 <glx> [udp] advertising on master server successful
17:53:46 <jez> even when i disable my firewall i dont get that
17:54:04 <jez> dbg: [net] [NET] Resolved master.openttd.org to 81.171.98.111
17:54:04 <jez> dbg: [net] [udp] advertising to master server
17:54:21 <glx> then it can't reach master server
17:54:51 <jez> it works when i try as root
17:54:56 <jez> so why when im logged in as a user doesnt it
17:55:19 <glx> your user doesn't have rights to go outside maybe
17:55:43 <jez> elinks www.google.com works
17:56:12 <glx> www.google.com doesn't use UDP
17:56:35 <jez> i cant think what would be stopping the user's account receiving udp
17:56:53 <glx> it's not receiving, it's sending
18:08:49 <Pinchiukas> so what makes a bus service profitable?
18:09:24 <Pinchiukas> I've joined a server, blew all my money on an incomplete railway, managed to build two stations in a town and a bus, and it's not profitable! :(
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19:44:31 <Pinchiukas> ah, so openttd is something like dopewars :)
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19:52:04 <Pinchiukas> what's the point in playing it anyway :(
19:54:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> what's the point in playing? www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2012.%20Mai%1939.png
19:55:01 <mrfrenzy> that url is really fucked up eddi|zuhause2
19:55:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2012.%20Mai%201939.png
19:56:43 <Pinchiukas> Eddi|zuHause2: well playing should be fun
19:57:26 <Pinchiukas> and you pretty much have to wait until the round ends and the server restarts to be able to win
19:58:44 <Eddi|zuHause2> you win in the end, what should be the problem with that?
19:59:00 <jez> Pinchiukas: that's why NoAI will be so good once it's finished and some good AIs are made. ;-)
20:00:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> AI is a computer player
20:00:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> they are really bad, so NoAI is a rewrite of the AI
20:00:53 <Pinchiukas> yeah, I noticed they do some weird shit
20:01:00 <Eddi|zuHause2> it's called NoAI because the first step of implementing a new AI is ripping out all evidence that there ever an AI existed
20:02:28 <jez> what will be cool is we can have an aggressive ai
20:02:39 <jez> and their president photo can be some guy with sunglasses
20:02:51 <jez> and their photo can be some woman looking timid
20:04:40 <Pinchiukas> well basically openttd sucks cause the time is limited, I'd like the game to continue until there is no place to build anything or something like that
20:05:29 <glx> you can play for as long as you want
20:06:24 <Pinchiukas> well the server restarts
20:06:59 <glx> it can be changed by server admin
20:07:05 <Pinchiukas> so you can play until the year 9000?
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20:08:18 <Pinchiukas> but with years some technical achievements show up, right?
20:12:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> only if you have designed some, default vehicles stop changing after 2050
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21:13:07 <henkie> is there a way to automatic remove the "void order"?
21:18:45 <planetmaker> Does anyone know how I can easily tell a savegame or scenario tell to use a certain config file?
21:18:57 <planetmaker> e.g. replace the existing configuration which comes with it?
21:19:26 <planetmaker> That's sad to hear :(. So I've to activate all grf by hand?
21:19:57 <glx> modifying grfs in an existing game can lead to crashs
21:20:02 <Ammler> planetmaker: there is patch
21:20:57 <jez9999> what port(s) does openttd use when it's acting as a server
21:21:01 <jez9999> all ports, all protocols; a list
21:21:13 <DorpsGek> glx: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
21:21:40 <Ammler> that should make it easier
21:21:49 <planetmaker> glx: I don't plan to modify a running game. I've created a map and want to change before start
21:22:07 <jez9999> so it DEFINITELY doesnt use any ports under 1024?
21:22:20 <jez9999> because when i run it as a user, it cant seem to advertise to the master server
21:22:24 <planetmaker> Ammler: right. That looks nice :). I hope for that to make it into trunk
21:22:27 <jez9999> it's ok as root but buggered as user
21:22:44 <Ammler> planetmaker: can't you build it self?
21:23:26 <Rubidium> jez9999: *unless* you for the port to be different in the config files...
21:28:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> <planetmaker> glx: I don't plan to modify a running game. I've created a map and want to change before start <- that may still cause trouble, especially with newindustries there have been problems
21:29:07 <jez9999> Rubidium: netstat says it is binding UDP port 3979
21:30:12 <Eddi|zuHause2> it does not recieve on 3978, why should it bind that port?
21:30:58 <Ammler> hmm, newgrf GUI is too old for current trunk
21:31:06 <jez9999> but it has bound udp port 3979
21:31:11 <jez9999> so why the heck isnt it working?
21:31:35 <jez9999> dbg: [net] [NET] Resolved master.openttd.org to 81.171.98.111
21:31:35 <jez9999> dbg: [net] [udp] advertising to master server
21:31:48 <jez9999> would it give me an error if it couldnt send?
21:31:55 <jez9999> can i assume that it's failing to receive, not send?
21:32:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12399 /trunk/src/oldloader.cpp: -Fix: some old DOS savegame didn't load properly due to 'garbage' that was sprinkled in some places.
21:34:25 <jez9999> why do we use UDP, anyway/
21:34:32 <jez9999> wouldnt tcp be better? udp seems to cause problems
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21:37:40 <Rubidium> something with windows servers not being able to handle lots of tcp connections...
21:38:01 <Rubidium> and udp being far more efficient resource wise for the masterserver than tcp
21:38:25 <jez9999> who really knows about networking stuff in the openttd team?
21:38:28 <jez9999> i need a word with them
21:38:34 <jez9999> someone needs to help me diagnose the problem
21:40:35 <glx> and udp is the best thing for master server communication
21:41:28 <jez9999> not when linux boxes have problems allowing users to access udp!
21:41:35 <jez9999> it's uttely useless then
21:41:57 <glx> others have no problem with that
21:42:06 <Rubidium> well... if users are not allowed to have udp connections then your system is totally and utterly screwed
21:45:27 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12400 /branches/noai/bin/ai/regression/completeness.sh: [NoAI] -Fix: reduce the number of false positives in the regression test completeness check script.
21:53:15 <Wolf01> hmhmhmhmmh somebody changed the main toolbar? seem that I'm unable to see competitors company info (the dropdown menu doesn't appear)
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21:54:09 <Lillefix> I was just wondering, do you have any solutions with the nightly-troubles that comes with leopard?
21:55:40 <jez9999> now i cant even advertise successfully to the master server as root
21:56:39 <Lillefix> No solutions for leopard and nightly?
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21:59:37 <Digitalfox> Lillefix could you mention the problems you have with leopard?
22:00:16 <Lillefix> Firefly mentions that the X11 that comes with Leopard is broken
22:00:36 <Lillefix> The app just won`t open
22:00:44 <glx> Lillefix: many options :) use the ppc version, or compile it yourself
22:00:55 <Lillefix> trying to compile now...
22:01:08 <Lillefix> I can`t use the ppc version on my macbook...?
22:01:23 <Patrick`> well, it would run through rosetta I guess
22:01:35 <Patrick`> I don't actually know the answer to your question, please ignore me
22:02:05 <Lillefix> Yeah, but rosetta is such an hassle
22:02:56 <Patrick`> there should be universal binaries
22:03:02 <henkie> will there also be newmusic? to complement the newgrfs?
22:03:18 <glx> Patrick`: hard to do when not on a mac
22:03:19 <henkie> will be hard to replace the awesome midi's
22:05:47 <jez9999> im not too fond of those new graphics
22:06:07 <jez9999> frankly, unless you want to zoom in to 1000% i see no point in them, and they're not as cute as the normal ttd ones
22:07:33 <Patrick`> well, the new ones are Free To Redistribute
22:07:48 <Patrick`> so with a full set plus free sounds we can finally get a working standalone downloadable product
22:08:01 <Patrick`> and not something nichely-legal like freedoom or UQM
22:12:24 <jez9999> how can i get really verbose debug output from the openttd linux commandline server?
22:12:32 <jez9999> like if calls are failing
22:12:38 <henkie> can i still register my server even when it is behind nat?
22:13:00 <glx> henkie: yes if ports are forwarded
22:13:04 <henkie> it now shows as offline
22:14:10 <jez9999> i cannot figure this out
22:14:15 <jez9999> even with debuglevel set to 9
22:14:20 <glx> 3978 is the port used to contact master server
22:14:24 <jez9999> it just says that it's advertising to master server, and nothing more
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22:15:05 <henkie> glx, yes my bad, i have the right ports forwarded
22:15:18 <jez9999> the openttd daemon needs more useful output
22:15:20 <henkie> and i can join from an external location
22:15:25 *** XeryusTC is now known as Xeryus|bnc
22:15:27 <jez9999> that's the other problem with udp. you can't easily diagnose the problem
22:15:31 <henkie> still it shows as offline
22:15:34 <jez9999> i mean it just fires off a packet and that's it
22:15:41 <jez9999> how am i meant to diagnose why it isnt working?
22:16:40 <henkie> does it also ping my connection? cause that could be disabled
22:17:34 <Lillefix> excuse me, but where do I find the config-file in which I am supposed to set the font?
22:18:26 <henkie> i am btw 130.89.163.214 in the server list
22:22:46 <glx> Lillefix: do see questionmarks in intro ?
22:23:02 <Lillefix> seems like I am missing openttdw.grf
22:23:25 <Lillefix> What did I do wrong?
22:24:23 <glx> latest nightly or pre-r12396 ?
22:24:42 <Lillefix> planned to play online
22:25:04 <glx> ok so you need to do ./configure --revision=r12368
22:28:36 <henkie> ah, must be because i am behind the same NAT
22:28:55 <henkie> is there a mechanism to transfer the newgrf from the server to the clients?
22:29:29 <henkie> cause of possible copyright or virii?
22:30:04 *** xerxes is now known as shodan
22:33:43 <DaleStan> Newgrf virus shouldn't be possible. Doesn't mean "isn't", of course, but TTDPatch, at least, never uses stack buffers for newgrf data, and all code is before the buffer, so any overflow won't hit code either.
22:36:08 *** Sacro` is now known as Sacro
22:36:27 <henkie> it's kinda troublesome to find the right mix of newgrf for me :)
22:38:02 <Lillefix> glx: Thanks, I got it now
22:46:02 <cyber> well i can tell sacro is the nick of an imbecil ...
22:55:50 <cyber> do i need the tt original files to play ?
22:58:55 <henkie> is the game still for sale btw?
22:59:33 <valhallasw> transport tycoon deluxe? no
22:59:58 <lolman> eBay would be best bet for getting a copy of TTD, I would assume
23:00:26 <lolman> That's of questioned legality though
23:04:16 <henkie> btw, what can i do with the "timetable" feature? or is it just for stats?
23:04:55 <glx> you can use it to force your trains to wait at stations without using "full load"
23:06:06 <henkie> ah i see, but when it states a train is "late", that's just for my info?
23:06:59 <glx> but that be caused by a traffic jam
23:07:21 <henkie> yeah, the bad kind of jam :)
23:07:32 <cyber> i hate transport just because theres no sea faring
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23:08:00 <henkie> then may i suggest another game :)
23:08:30 <henkie> planes are way to easy
23:08:51 <cyber> but you cant beat a ship
23:09:00 <henkie> busses are ok, when you have like 2 dollar
23:09:41 <henkie> ships dont run on track, so i dont really dig them
23:10:20 <cyber> well that the fun thing about ships and that they carry lots of goods
23:11:09 <Born_Acorn> Ships aren't fun! They're serious pieces of maritime equipment!
23:11:10 <henkie> yeah, but placing signs and all is fun
23:11:32 <cyber> im no expert but i think boats and trains are the best energy efficients transport means
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continue to next day ⏵
