IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-02-25
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00:00:48 <Tekky> so in a multiplayer game, the clients could a different YAPF cache state?
00:00:57 <Tekky> so in a multiplayer game, the clients could have a different YAPF cache state?
00:01:05 <glx> no because it is invalidated on connexion
00:02:02 <Tekky> ah, wait, I think KUDr told me that he used to do that, but that was only a workaround for a bug and that the latest YAPF is not invalidated anymore on client connection.
00:02:16 <Tekky> hehe, thx for refreshing my memory :)
00:02:49 <Tekky> I now remember I had this discussion before with KUDr :)
00:03:06 <glx> IIRC with the bug, the cache was invalidated more often
00:04:00 <glx> and all caches are invalidated on connection
00:06:13 <Eddi|zuHause2> the initial bug was that KUDr assumed, the different cache states would not yield different result (desync)
00:06:32 <Eddi|zuHause2> the first workaround was to invalidate the cache on each tick
00:06:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> until it was implemented that the invalidation happens on connection
00:07:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, not entirely, the cache was still used within the same tick
00:11:09 <Tekky> hmmmm, I think I need to have a talk to KUDr again about this issue, because I plan to make major changes to YAPF. Has KUDr been around lately?
00:11:28 <DorpsGek> glx: KUDr was last seen in #openttd 17 weeks, 4 days, 9 hours, 47 minutes, and 1 second ago: <KUDr> good
00:11:46 <DorpsGek> glx: KUDr* could be KUDr (17 weeks, 4 days, 9 hours, 47 minutes, and 20 seconds ago), KUDr_wrk (28 weeks, 5 days, 8 hours, 41 minutes, and 21 seconds ago), or KUDr_mac (31 weeks, 0 days, 12 hours, 8 minutes, and 37 seconds ago)
00:12:05 <Tekky> oh :( That's a long time :(
00:14:01 <Tekky> thanks for the information, though.
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01:26:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> why does the "full animation" setting not switch off industry animation?
01:28:01 <Gonozal_VIII> do default industries have animation?
01:28:37 <Eddi|zuHause2> power plant sparks
01:29:51 <Gonozal_VIII> but that's not palette based
01:30:05 <Tefad> it should be palette animation.
01:30:29 <glx> Eddi|zuHause2: industry animation is part of industry state
01:30:52 <Eddi|zuHause2> may there be any other way to switch that off?
01:31:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't care about network ;)
01:32:07 <glx> if it's off for a player, it should be off for all, and some newindustries uses animation state to store things about their production
01:33:19 <Eddi|zuHause2> is there a hack for this? i want to find out if industries are what is taking so much CPU power
01:34:35 <glx> there are callbacks for newindustries
01:35:23 <glx> and if the code in the callback is complex, it may need more cpu
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01:36:02 <glx> what's the last thing you read?
01:36:29 <Eddi|zuHause3> the logs page ;)
01:37:30 <DaleStan> When I made a cursory attempt at profiling TTDPatch (Yes, I know. The other program) ages ago, TTD code consumed the vast majority of the processor time; I doubt there is that much work involved in the newindustries callbacks.\
01:38:02 <Eddi|zuHause3> but did you test it with 3000 industries on the map?
01:39:25 <glx> anyway drawing takes more CPU than anything else
01:39:28 <SmatZ> map full of industries :)
01:39:46 <SmatZ> drawing electrified railway is very CPU intensive...
01:40:37 <Eddi|zuHause3> the problem is, i have a virtually empty map (player wise), and want to find out why i still have 100% CPU
01:40:47 <glx> bridges too, as for each middle part you need to get the bridge end
01:42:21 <glx> Eddi|zuHause3: using 8bpp blitter?
01:42:55 <Eddi|zuHause3> i suppose... using Gonozal_VIII's patch pack... and i want to narrow this down
01:43:33 <glx> as patches may have performance issues
01:44:19 <Gonozal_VIII> there are some with high cpu drain capabilities... but they shouldn't do so on an empty map
01:49:33 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, my primary suspects are paxdest and industries
01:49:55 <Gonozal_VIII> paxdest without stations shouldn't do anything...
01:50:32 <Gonozal_VIII> i didn't read every line... but i think so
01:51:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, there are several fishing ground stations on the map
01:51:36 <Eddi|zuHause3> and especially they are not connected
01:51:56 <Eddi|zuHause3> which is always the worst case for a pathfinder
01:52:40 <Gonozal_VIII> hmmm right... those are stations too
01:54:10 <glx> the same can happen for oilrigs (if you have some of them)
01:54:39 <Gonozal_VIII> map generator doesn't generate them with the ecs vectors
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02:09:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r12244 /trunk/src/engine.cpp: -Fix (r12150): typo resulting in no players are given the engine preview offer
02:26:07 <Eddi|zuHause3> glx: i just tried a clean trunk game with the same settings for map generation (1kx2k, lots of towns (~1500), few industries (~2500)), and it is also using almost 100% CPU
02:58:39 <Belugas> pffff.... and people want even bigger maps :P
03:02:24 <Belugas> grrrrr... "if (something = this)" is really not the same as "if (something == that)"
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08:45:25 <yorick> the NoAI towns seem capable of removing AI road
08:45:35 <yorick> and blocking the AI that way
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09:24:16 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12245 /branches/noai/bin/ai/regression/regression.txt: [NoAI] -Fix r12243: regression.txt wasn't updated (glx)
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10:28:22 <SpComb> hmm, a multiplayer game of OpenTTD where the AIs written by different people play against eachother
10:32:42 <yorick> you could also let the AIs behave as client
10:32:53 <yorick> so people could join using their AI
10:39:33 <yorick> I'm still waiting for Morloth to hand me over his pathfinder :)
10:39:34 <De_Ghost> you'd have more luck coding an ai that play go
10:49:26 <Vikthor> What might be interesting is using AI to take care of some micro-management tasks, ie. it would play in the same company as player and manage optimizing timetables, adding more wagons to a consist when more cargo is supplied etc.
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10:53:15 <SpComb> where is OpenTTD's git repo at?
10:54:20 <SpComb> what's the url for e.g. svn/trunk.git?
10:55:24 <Vikthor> git://git.openttd.org/svn/trunk.git
10:56:40 <De_Ghost> what if the tacks are overloading
10:56:47 <De_Ghost> it woud try to add train
10:56:55 <Gekz> when did we convert to git
10:57:03 <yorick> svn://svn.openttd.org/trunk ;)
10:57:07 <Noldo> De_Ghost: ai is exactly as dumb as the programmer who made it
10:57:20 <De_Ghost> really hard to do so much checking
10:57:22 <Vikthor> Gekz: There is even hg.openttd.org
10:57:32 <De_Ghost> it's like a life long task
10:57:38 <Noldo> De_Ghost: it's hard to do by hand too
10:58:35 <De_Ghost> so the chance of an ai doing something so varible as train adding while taking into account track conditions and all those other fun things is
10:59:51 <Gonozal_VIII> 1 km/h tourist ship with very high income...
11:00:14 <Gonozal_VIII> doesn't go anywhere, just stays docked and generates money^^
11:01:53 <Vikthor> And then gets searched by police and your company is closed?
11:03:30 <globester> you can even do abortion on it \o/
11:08:35 <Vikthor> Well not everybody is in the Netherlands and then, AFAIK you can't change profit for vehicle, but only cargo payment rate
11:10:59 <Gonozal_VIII> that wasn't a real suggestion :P
11:13:02 <globester> how long was it again untill you could buy shares?
11:14:15 <Vikthor> look into patch settings
11:21:15 <SpComb> hmm... make just bombs out with "make: *** [all] Error 2" without actually giving me any error messages
11:23:36 <SpComb> interesting, apparently the .patch doesn't include new files...
11:24:54 <SpComb> ah well, at least now I know that nobody's actually tried to apply and compile my .patchs, or hasn't told me they don't work :)
11:31:25 * yorick added a WrightAI wiki page :)
11:32:38 <yorick> notice my extensive use of , :P
11:33:57 <yorick> wiki.openttd.org/index.php/AI:WrightAI
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11:39:17 <yorick> I need that Morloth thingy to be back
11:42:37 <planetmaker> ^^ What's a Morloth thingy?
11:43:30 <yorick> poor Morloth gets highlighted all the time :p
11:44:12 <yorick> he's developed a pathfinder in squirrel for ai's
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12:53:37 <pm|away> den: wrong channel :)
12:56:22 <TheMask96> your password is: *******
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13:29:04 <Eddi|zuHause3> <yorick> you could also let the AIs behave as client <- no, the other way round, you should be able to run AI functions and scripts from the console
13:38:24 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r12246 /trunk/src/newgrf_industries.cpp: -Fix (r10460): Proper usage of Clamp().
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13:48:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r12247 /trunk/src/newgrf_town.cpp: -Fix (r9315): Town variables 0x9E to 0xAD (company ratings) returned wrong values.
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14:03:26 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12248 /branches/noai/src/ai/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
14:03:26 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Codechange: last_command_res was in AIThread, while it should be in AIObject, like all other variables like it
14:03:26 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Codechange: minor comment/code update in ai_threads.cpp
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14:38:53 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12249 /branches/noai/src/ai/ai_threads.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: finally found why closing the game gave an assert() on running AIs
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14:56:57 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12250 /branches/noai/bin/ai/wrightai/main.nut: [NoAI] -Fix: ChangeName -> AICompany.SetCompanyName
15:00:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12251 /branches/noai/src/console_cmds.cpp: [NoAI] -Add: 2 console commands: 'list_ai' and 'start_ai', listing or starting an AI
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15:40:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12253 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_road.hpp: [NoAI] -Fix: removed obsolete comment at AIRoad
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16:06:45 <Yorick> Te eeh eehee gah boink!
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16:10:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12254 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_tilelist.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: make AITileList_Industry* newgrf compatible (tnx glx)
16:14:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12255 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_tilelist.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: ensure AITileList_Industry* only operates on valid tiles (Morloth)
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16:26:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12256 /branches/noai/ (bin/ai/regression/regression.txt src/ai/api/ai_tilelist.cpp): [NoAI] -Fix: because of a 'bug' in OpenTTD, FindStationsAroundIndustryTile gave inconsitant results with GetProductionAroundTiles (first ignores station layout). Fixed with HACK, waiting for real solution in OpenTTD.
16:29:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12257 /branches/noai/src/ai/ai_threads.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: flush stdout and stderr when killing a thread, avoids data-loss ;)
16:30:24 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r12258 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix: GetProductionAroundTiles() may fail if only the second production slot exists
16:36:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12259 /branches/noai/ (3 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Fix: depots were considered buildable (tnx Progman)
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17:13:53 <Yorick> has there been any bug with football stadions being built over town roads lately?
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18:18:57 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12260 /branches/noai/src/ai/ (ai.cpp ai_factory.hpp): [NoAI] -Change: make SelectAI return the factory, so some GUI might read how the AI is called, and who wrote it, etc etc
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18:49:22 <DJ-Nekkid> anyone with experience with callbacks (nr 36) who wanna give a hand?
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19:21:04 <Bjarni> I just turned it on and guess what the first sentence was
19:21:24 <Bjarni> (I had no idea what was on at the time and it started on a random channel)
19:22:19 <Yorick> please go on, o mighty bjarni!
19:22:29 <Bjarni> basically you have no idea?
19:22:59 <Bjarni> it was a woman inviting to a treesome (or however it's spelled) and I was like WTF
19:24:08 <Gonozal_VIII> with two males or two females? or three females? :O
19:24:30 <Bjarni> and if SpComb is being a copy cat now then I will ban him :P
19:24:51 <SpComb> /lastlog "ooh, Bjarni"
19:25:09 <Bjarni> I mean... this isn't AOL
19:25:12 <SpComb> I was just expressing my surprise at you being online!
19:25:48 <SpComb> hmm... wasn't AOL going to start using Jabber for AIM?
19:26:05 <Gonozal_VIII> who cares about aol?
19:26:12 <Bjarni> but whatever they do they aren't welcome here
19:26:15 <SpComb> the suckers that use it
19:26:20 <Bjarni> at least not the stereotyped AOLer
19:27:41 <SpComb> but I guess these instructions are outdated
19:27:45 <Gonozal_VIII> people that have no idea how to use the internet and got it through some fance 48h free cd...
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19:33:42 <Yorick> huh...that's no Bjarni!
19:34:05 <Gonozal_VIII> wow, you noticed it
19:37:27 * Gonozal_VIII gives yorick a cookie
19:37:57 * Yorick gives cookie back to Gonozal_VIII
19:50:02 <Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> [...] 48h free cd... <-- you mean they can use their CD drive for free for 48 hours and then they have to pay for the driver?
19:50:31 <Bjarni> quit trying to avoid the question
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19:51:10 <peter1138> Yorick, fortunately not.
19:52:41 <Bjarni> Yorick: there is a big difference
19:53:21 <Bjarni> one can code really good, has great English skills and knows how to deal with troublesome individuals
19:53:32 <Bjarni> the other one can count to 1138 :P
19:56:31 <Bjarni> however I think there is a plot to merge us
20:03:03 <peter1138> Bjarni, I can't believe somebody submitted that quote. Was it you?
20:04:28 <Bjarni> but it was at a time when somebody submitted a lot from the channel
20:04:40 <Bjarni> a fair amount of it appeared to be more or less random
20:04:48 <Prof_Frink> Well, it was back in the Dark Ages
20:04:48 <Bjarni> and we never figured out who did it
20:05:39 <Bjarni> did you submit this one?
20:06:19 <Bjarni> or any of the other not so funny ones
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20:16:40 <Gonozal_VIII> were there important changes in trunk in the last few days?
20:17:02 <Bjarni> read the log if you really want to know
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20:17:44 <Gonozal_VIII> that could be an option...
20:19:23 <Gonozal_VIII> hmm lots of revisions... i guess i should update
20:19:49 <Gonozal_VIII> all that anime watching delays codestuff^^
20:21:31 <Gonozal_VIII> it's kind of complicated to read the subtitles and type at the same time... but it works
20:22:42 <Gonozal_VIII> it's not the best of the best... but it's good
20:23:10 <Gonozal_VIII> full metal panic
20:24:47 <Bjarni> but I just read a quick summary
20:24:54 <Bjarni> clearly nothing for me :/
20:25:09 <Gonozal_VIII> what is something for you?
20:26:10 <Bjarni> but I don't like fighting stuff
20:28:43 <Vikthor> Gonozal_VIII: Most of the recent revisions are on NoAI branch though
20:31:06 * peter1138 wonders where all the 'omg my engine sets don't work properly' bugs reports are from Gonozal_VIII's pack...
20:32:00 <Gonozal_VIII> hmmm? your patch breaks sets?
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21:58:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> <Gonozal_VIII> were there important changes in trunk in the last few days? <- there was a bug with the prototype offering
21:58:36 <Eddi|zuHause3> no player got the prototype
21:59:10 <Gonozal_VIII> can't somebody delazify me?
22:01:26 * Bjarni picks up a tazer, connects it to Gonozal_VIII's computer and writes a script to give a burst every time there is an svn mail
22:01:48 <Bjarni> now all we need to do is to hide the tazer in his bed and he will feel each time there is a commit
22:01:55 <Gonozal_VIII> i don't get those mails :P
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22:07:21 <Yorick> cation.oftc.net oxygen.oftc.net
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22:07:38 <Eddi|zuHause3> Yorick: no, that's the connection between two servers that broke
22:07:38 <Gonozal_VIII> but everybody has those 2...
22:08:07 <Eddi|zuHause3> usually means that one of the two servers went down
22:08:44 <Eddi|zuHause3> it would all be less of a hassle if IRC wasn't designed as tree
22:09:21 <Eddi|zuHause3> if there were two independent paths between each server, only the people on that particular server would be affected
22:09:37 <Eddi|zuHause3> but in a tree, if a central server breaks, you end up with two separated networks
22:10:45 <Gonozal_VIII> but a tree seems to be a bad idea for irc servers
22:11:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> a tree has advantages
22:11:34 <Gonozal_VIII> but every server has to communicate with every other... that's complicated in a tree
22:12:00 <Eddi|zuHause3> no, a server that gets a package from one connection broadcasts it on all other connections
22:12:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> if you had 2 path, you would get the same package from two connections, at different times
22:12:28 <ben_goodger> surely it won't be that complicated
22:12:30 <ben_goodger> it can't be more than a hundred lines anyway... tasers don't need very complex controllers
22:12:33 <Eddi|zuHause3> you would have to scan for duplicated messages
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22:13:59 <Gonozal_VIII> connect every server directly to every other...
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22:14:49 <Gonozal_VIII> depends on the number of servers
22:14:57 <Gonozal_VIII> no idea how many oftc has
22:15:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> you need O(n) connections, it doesn't scale well with big networks
22:15:55 <Eddi|zuHause3> a ring would make more sense, but is difficult to alter dynamically
22:16:27 <Eddi|zuHause3> but tree is definitely the most simple and cheapest version
22:16:34 <Sacro> how am i getting ctcp replies for stuff i didn't send
22:16:41 <Eddi|zuHause3> star? that is worse than a tree
22:16:59 <Eddi|zuHause3> Sacro: vicious ctcp attack ;)
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22:17:14 <Gonozal_VIII> you need one server with a hugeish bandwidth and the others don't have much to do
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22:18:03 <Eddi|zuHause3> Gonozal_VIII: exactly, much worse than a tree
22:18:05 <Sacro> unless people are doing it to me
22:18:17 <Gonozal_VIII> depends on the hardware
22:18:44 *** glx|away is now known as glx
22:18:55 <Eddi|zuHause3> Gonozal_VIII: the IRC protocoll is probably like 30 years old
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23:02:01 <Progman> what is the different between cargos which are flagged with is_freight?
23:02:26 <glx> they are affected by freight_multiplier
23:05:20 <Gonozal_VIII> they are freight
23:08:48 <Eddi|zuHause3> Progman: what else would you want it to mean?
23:11:00 <Sacro> Beskriv följande begrepp som tas upp i kursen.
23:11:05 <DorpsGek> Yorick: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 hour, 9 minutes, and 16 seconds ago: <Bjarni> now all we need to do is to hide the tazer in his bed and he will feel each time there is a commit
23:11:23 <Yorick> Sacro: bjarni is online ;)
23:11:41 <Bjarni> are you looking at the computer or the mind?
23:13:17 <Yorick> I has, you has, that is me comp
23:13:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r12261 /trunk/src/vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#1805]: autoreplace did not update vehicle index for timetable window
23:13:46 <Gonozal_VIII> i think he wanted to write "mine has"
23:14:37 <Gonozal_VIII> It's, not it's. not It's not it's
23:14:52 <Bjarni> nomatter where you place the word "I" it has to be uppercase
23:15:45 <Bjarni> Gonozal_VIII: I inside a word is not a word by itself
23:15:56 <Tefad> like i'm going to the store
23:16:17 <Tefad> or he and i are going to go bug hunting
23:16:36 <Bjarni> well... I need some sleep
23:16:50 <Tefad> for the greater part of it, i ignore the shift key and punctuation on IRC
23:17:10 <Tefad> sometimes there's ambiguity.. i'll use punctuation
23:17:15 <Bjarni> you are American. You vandalise English anyway
23:17:45 <Tefad> vandalize maybe, but it's the true american way.
23:18:10 <Tefad> who needs all those useless 'u's
23:18:51 <Bjarni> English is the official channel language
23:18:55 <Tefad> the -ise -ize thing ins't a big deal.
23:19:08 <Tefad> "english" is a bastardized langauge to begin with
23:19:58 <Bjarni> but it's the best we can do where people can still understand it
23:20:16 <Tefad> it's like saying speak HTML
23:20:45 <Bjarni> lame Romans and French guys put Latin into it >_<
23:21:25 <Bjarni> but nobody talks about how people shouldn't use toilets
23:21:43 <Tefad> english replaced french as the common denominator
23:21:47 <Tefad> rather odd, but works for me
23:21:50 <Bjarni> because the alternative isn't better
23:22:21 <Tefad> seriously, why put letters on words soley for decoration
23:22:32 <Tefad> at least in english they were once pronounced
23:22:49 <Bjarni> French is a language made by some people who didn't know Latin but were forced to speak Latin. The result goes without saying
23:22:59 <Tefad> know gnat gnaw .. pnuematic?
23:23:04 <Bjarni> French is to Latin as Engrish is to English
23:23:56 <Bjarni> but I need to sleep anyway
23:24:14 <glx> <Tefad> merci beau coup. <-- no space in beaucoup ;)
23:24:40 <Tefad> je suis bete.. etc etc.
23:24:43 <Bjarni> now you can go on harassing perfectly fine European languages without me interrupting you
23:25:01 <Bjarni> <Tefad> c'est la merde <-- no thanks :P
23:25:10 <Gonozal_VIII> even i understand merde
23:25:22 <Bjarni> Gonozal_VIII: bullshit :P
23:25:35 <Bjarni> anyway I'm out of here
23:26:37 <Gonozal_VIII> but really... there are a whole lot of useless letters in french words
23:27:00 <Tefad> i think i said something along the lines of i require a donkey
23:27:07 <glx> it's the whole sentence that didn't parse
23:27:51 <Prof_Frink> Pfft, who needs a donkey when you have a goat?
23:27:52 <Tefad> i never did grasp articles very well
23:28:01 <Tefad> they're seldom specified in english : x
23:28:17 <Tefad> romance languages anger me in that regard.. latin was much easier
23:29:03 <Tefad> or rather FATVVSSUM i suppose
23:29:05 <Gonozal_VIII> genders are completely random in french as far as i understood
23:29:14 <Tefad> they match latin somewhat
23:29:39 <Tefad> i never liked inanimate objects having a gender
23:30:00 <glx> Gonozal_VIII: no they aren't
23:30:09 <Prof_Frink> Tefad: What about connectors?
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23:59:48 <Eddi|zuHause3> <Gonozal_VIII> genders are completely random in french as far as i understood <- my french teacher used to say "anything good is female"
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