IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-01-24
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00:00:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> <fjb> Yes, when it can not enter the desired track (because of a red signal) it simply doesn't wait, it takes the next switch. And then that train is lost. <- why does nobody ever listen to me?
00:00:47 <Gonozal_VIII> more fun without listening?
00:01:50 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause3: I listened to you. But you settings didn't seam to help. Maybe I set the wrong value.
00:02:15 <Eddi|zuHause3> fjb: changes made to the config will not affect savegames
00:02:35 <Eddi|zuHause3> to affect a savegame, load it, change the setting from the console, and save it
00:02:49 <fjb> So what do I have to set before starting the next game?
00:03:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> you can change it in the game, you only have to do it from the game console (^ key)
00:03:43 <Eddi|zuHause3> Sacro: not on german keyboards ;)
00:04:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> in the general case: whichever key is above [tab]
00:04:27 <Eddi|zuHause3> (and below [Esc])
00:04:47 <Gonozal_VIII> and right of nothing
00:05:00 <fjb> Ok what command do I have to give the console?
00:06:02 <Eddi|zuHause3> use Shift+PgUp to scroll, there should be an entry like "yapf.rail_first_twoway_eol"
00:06:57 <Eddi|zuHause3> then type "patch whatever_that_setting_is_really_called off"
00:09:21 <fjb> Does that enable the penalties in the next two lines?
00:10:11 <Eddi|zuHause3> that does not do anything with penalties
00:10:28 <Eddi|zuHause3> it allows trains to wait in front of red two way signals
00:10:37 <Eddi|zuHause3> instead of discarding that route alltogether
00:11:09 <Eddi|zuHause3> and that setting should really be off by default, but i couldn't quite convince KUDr of that
00:11:25 <Gonozal_VIII> naaah, i like it how it is
00:12:01 <Gonozal_VIII> waiting depots don't work with that off
00:12:32 <Eddi|zuHause3> fjb: something about TTDP handling of red signals, i believe
00:13:40 <Eddi|zuHause3> Gonozal_VIII: that kind of advanced abuse of features is suitible to have the people fiddle with the config, default values should be for the uninformed newbies
00:14:26 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause3: It is working much better now.
00:14:34 <Gonozal_VIII> hmmm ok, that's a point i guess
00:15:00 <fjb> And the waiting depots didn't work for me. I tried that.
00:15:18 <Eddi|zuHause3> Gonozal_VIII: besides, you can still change the penalties so that the path through the depot is preferred
00:15:21 <Gonozal_VIII> they do work, depots have a presignal entry built in
00:15:50 <Gonozal_VIII> so train enters and doesn't leave until exit is free
00:16:06 <Gonozal_VIII> while it's waiting, other trains can enter, no jams
00:18:17 <fjb> The train lenters the depot and leaves it in the oposit direction.
00:19:30 <Eddi|zuHause3> fjb: you have to make the signal an exit signal
00:19:42 <Eddi|zuHause3> and you can't have two exit signals
00:19:53 <Eddi|zuHause3> and it's probably not a solution of your probllem
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00:21:30 <fjb> Exit signals and pre signals are a bit problematic at single track lines.
00:23:11 <Eddi|zuHause3> i know, which is why it's not a solution to your problem
00:23:16 <fjb> And yapf still should try to get a lost train back on the route.
00:24:28 <Gonozal_VIII> you shouldn't let them get lost in the first place
00:24:39 <Eddi|zuHause3> it does, but if the train is lost, there is no route anymore
00:25:04 <fjb> Gonozal_VIII: As I told you that is unavoidable with yapf and single track layouts.
00:25:10 <Gonozal_VIII> what happens, if you skip orders?
00:25:39 <Gonozal_VIII> it's not, they will wait now with that switch
00:26:28 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, i occasionally found that the waiting time should be increased as well
00:26:29 <Gonozal_VIII> if they still somehow get lost, your layout is bad
00:26:29 <fjb> There could be a lock with two trains facing each other now. One will get a timeout and turn around. That train is now lost.
00:26:58 <Gonozal_VIII> there are also waiting time settings...
00:27:01 <fjb> A bad layout is no excuse for al router malfunction.
00:27:05 <Eddi|zuHause3> when two trains directly face each other at a signal, one of them immediately turns around
00:27:22 <fjb> One of the trains has to time out in that situation.
00:27:22 <Gonozal_VIII> but trains facing each other could be avoided with presignals that ignore 135 corners
00:27:49 <fjb> Gonozal_VIII: Right, but presignals are not implemented that way.
00:29:08 <fjb> And a lost train causes much trouble because it can not choose a free track or platform. It takes the first and happily sits in front of a red signal while the track next to it has a green signal.
00:29:32 <Gonozal_VIII> i know, they behave like trains without orders
00:30:12 <Gonozal_VIII> maybe let any train prefer green signals, no matter if it has orders or a path?
00:30:18 <fjb> Even a train without orders should not act that stupid. red is red and green is green, if it has orders or not.
00:30:38 <fjb> Yes, that would be a good starting point to make it better.
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00:34:24 <Sacro> In short, 100 means nothing on the Fahrenheit scale, 96 used to mean something but doesn't anymore, and 0 is colder than it ever gets in Denmark.
00:35:01 <fjb> Kelvin is all that matters.
00:35:22 <Gonozal_VIII> kelvin is compatible with celsius
00:36:07 <fjb> Kelvin is celsius with the offset corrected.
00:36:26 <fjb> Fahrenheit is strange at best.
00:37:07 <Eddi|zuHause3> Sacro: not denmark, east danzig
00:37:32 <Gonozal_VIII> problem with kelvin is, that normal temperatures are high numbers, not like 1-2 digits like they are with celsius or even fahrenheit
00:39:06 <Gonozal_VIII> maybe a temperatur scale that has 0 at 250K would be a good compromise
00:39:21 <fjb> 7 segments leds are cheap today.
00:42:12 *** Osai|away is now known as Osai
00:43:37 <Sacro> "I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road."
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00:46:01 <fjb> How does it get calculated which train wins when more then one train is waiting for a signal block get become free?
00:46:39 <Gonozal_VIII> i would guess if they are looped through each tick, the one with the lower id wins
00:46:49 <Eddi|zuHause3> whoever is first in the list
00:51:31 <Gonozal_VIII> [01:50:53] Bartleby: man sollt jeden einzelnen ami mit nem pool versorgen
00:51:31 <Gonozal_VIII> [01:51:03] Robert: h
00:51:31 <Gonozal_VIII> [01:51:06] Bartleby: und ihm sagen hat 100, kann rein hpfen
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01:05:32 <glx> <Eddi|zuHause3> whoever is first in the list <-- the faster to start indeed
01:16:32 <Gonozal_VIII> yay, ships in 1875
01:32:41 <Gonozal_VIII> yay, ford t in 1908
01:34:02 <fjb> George started work on LV5. Maybe you should put that on the wishlist for LV5.
01:34:59 <Gonozal_VIII> would that work with patch?
01:35:10 <Gonozal_VIII> what happens to the long format date in patch?
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01:36:33 <Sacro> can anyone explain quicksort to me D:
01:37:08 <fjb> Hm, don't know. Ask George, he will tell you if it is possible.
01:37:18 <Gonozal_VIII> isn't that the one that always compares two entries and switches them if they are in the wrong order?
01:38:09 <Sacro> Gonozal_VIII: yes, quite possibly
01:38:14 <Sacro> but ... it confuddles me
01:38:32 <Gonozal_VIII> lots of sort mechanisms, i mix them up all the time
01:38:46 <Gonozal_VIII> then it's the recursive thing?
01:39:05 <Sacro> qsort uses pivots and hi/lo things
01:39:50 <fjb> Begin in the middle, then go to the middle of the upper half and then the lower half and so on.
01:39:55 <ln-> but quicksort is notorious for being explained wrong even in textbooks.
01:40:52 <Gonozal_VIII> you split in in half until you reach single entry level, then you sort them all the way back through the recursion
01:41:32 <Gonozal_VIII> i guess it's not easy to explain that...
01:41:32 <GoneWacko> ooh I implemented quicksort (read: copy pasted some code and added some bits) for an assignment not too long ago
01:41:34 <Sacro> ln-: our lecturer kept doing loads of diagrams and never really explained it
01:41:42 <Sacro> GoneWacko: what language?
01:42:25 <Gonozal_VIII> shouldn't be much difference to c#
01:42:38 <GoneWacko> We had to make a distributed sorter that would split a list in X parts and sort them all on a bunch of threads which may or may not have been on remote servers.
01:43:01 <ln-> is some sorting algorithm particularly good to run in parallel? (or does that matter anyway)
01:43:23 <Gonozal_VIII> what would you want to sort that requires multiple servers to do so :S
01:43:31 <GoneWacko> well QuickSort uses partitioning so I suppose that might be good for distribution.
01:43:59 <Gonozal_VIII> recursive stuff should be easy to do parallel
01:44:06 <GoneWacko> But in my case we'd just split it up into parts and use a random sorter (I did QuickSort and BubbleSort because one sucks and one is good -_-)
01:44:50 <Korenn> qsort can be written to work very well on parallel execution
01:45:12 <Sacro> i mean, your first split is 2 way
01:45:19 <Sacro> could shove one on each core
01:45:37 <Korenn> it doesn't require multiple servers
01:45:57 <GoneWacko> And in my case you can shove the next split onto four cores[/showoff]
01:46:32 <Korenn> when I did parallel programming at uni, we wrote programs for cell systems, with lots of processors in a gridlike setup
01:46:46 <GoneWacko> Korenn: well I did a 6 month semester called Develop a Distributed Object Oriented Application so the focus was on the distribution part, not the sorting algoritms :p
01:46:47 <Korenn> qsort becomes amazingly efficient in such a setup
01:47:06 <Korenn> I did that as well, but it was a different course :)
01:47:28 <GoneWacko> Quick dabbles in RMI and EJB3 and I've never really used it afterwards :p
01:47:52 <Korenn> and advanced courses into webservices etc
01:48:31 <Korenn> I specialized in stuff like that, but will probably never use it :P
01:49:46 <GoneWacko> Well first there was 3 months of courses on the subject and now I finished a 3 month (or 9 weeks + christmas holidays) project for a third party in which I've used exactly NO distributed technologies at all :p
01:50:06 <GoneWacko> Ended up creating a JSP-based information system (although we did make a nice little OO design and such)
01:50:20 <Gonozal_VIII> and airship available in 1906 :-)
01:50:50 <Korenn> JSP is a distributed technology, or at least part of the middleware for it
01:51:41 <GoneWacko> Well this Friday I have to do my assessment where I prove that I'm competent on the subject, so that's what I'll say :p
01:52:25 <Korenn> show them a standard 3 tiered distribution diagram of browser - jsp server - backend, that always convinces people you've been doing distributes stuff :P
01:52:57 <GoneWacko> I think I will, haha.
01:53:20 <GoneWacko> But as far as I know none of the project groups did much in the way of distributed systems so it shouldn't be an issue anyway.
01:54:15 <Korenn> 3 months isn't really enough to build a complex distributed system from the ground up anyway, at least not if you need to learn how to use the software while building it
01:54:36 <Korenn> took me a year to work on my thesis on distributed rule engines :)
01:55:39 <GoneWacko> Well it was pretty hard to make an information system in 9 weeks :P In hindsight I could've worked harder.
01:55:54 <Korenn> uhhuh, sounds familiar
01:56:12 <GoneWacko> But really we had to do research into a lot of new middleware (not really, mostly Hibernate :p)
01:56:18 <Eddi|zuHause2> i think insertion sort might be suitible for distributed compution, if bandwidth is the limiting factor
01:56:29 <Korenn> I did a course where the teacher broke up the work by having all groups work on separate parts of the whole, and add all the results together at the end. Naturally, none of it worked :P
01:56:33 <Eddi|zuHause2> like you do in card games
01:56:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> the "dealer" gives out chunks of data
01:56:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> and the other ones start sorting them as they come in
01:57:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> then you can merge the sorted lists when they come back
01:57:23 <GoneWacko> Actually yesterday I went to the company that we did the project for and it took a total of 3 minutes to get the project to work on the man's laptop :p
01:57:52 <GoneWacko> we were both amazed (him being a professional Java developer)
01:57:55 <Korenn> Eddi|zuHause2: but worst case that's a lot of extra computation to merge all the fractional lists together
01:58:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> merging lits is not much computation
01:58:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> it just needs twice as much memory
01:58:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> because you have to create a new array, and fill it
01:59:22 <Korenn> well, given two lists with length n and m, it's at least a cost of n+m to merge them in worst case
01:59:27 <Gonozal_VIII> you could do some hashing there to send bigger things to one server and smaller to the other, that way there won't be much trouble while merging
01:59:34 <Korenn> and that's excluding the sort
02:00:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> that's not "worst case", you have to copy the entire list anyway
02:00:10 <Gonozal_VIII> but the load could be badly balanced
02:00:56 <GoneWacko> in the case of my simple (and probably inefficient) course assigment we'd, for example, split a list of numbers between 1 and 100 into lists of 1-25, 26-50, 51-75, 76-100. And then each sorter would sort the fragment. This meant that sometimes some threads would have nothing to do while some threads virtually had to do all the work.
02:00:56 <Korenn> why do you need to copy the whole list?
02:01:04 <Eddi|zuHause2> but as i said, the precondition is bandwidth is expensive, calculation is cheap
02:01:15 <Korenn> yeah sounds about right
02:01:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> so inbetween packages, you have lots of time to calculate
02:02:06 <Korenn> I remember there being a problem with insertion sorting in parallel execution. but it's too long ago and I never used the information :P
02:02:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> parallel computing is a science of its own ;)
02:03:05 <Gonozal_VIII> there would only be problems if they try to insert into the same array
02:03:10 <glx> yeah and many people think it's easy to use multi-threading
02:03:33 <Eddi|zuHause2> threading is only half of the problem ;)
02:03:43 <GoneWacko> I wonder if I should go to university after I finish my current study (Computer Science @ Hogeschool van Arnhem en Nijmegen), I'm not much for all the scientific stuff but on the otherhand it does seem interesting :P
02:03:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> the other half is distributing the data over the clients
02:04:21 <glx> and a third half for the synchronisation ;)
02:04:48 <Korenn> GoneWacko: nooooooo, go to a technical university then.
02:04:58 * Korenn advises University of Twente :)
02:05:04 <Gonozal_VIII> half man, half bear, half pig! 3 halfes? it's huge!
02:05:13 <Eddi|zuHause2> my current project involves model checking of parallel algorithms
02:05:14 <GoneWacko> Korenn: that's on my list of places I might want to go
02:05:22 <glx> Gonozal_VIII: stop watching south park ;)
02:05:22 <GoneWacko> if only because of SNT :P
02:05:22 <Korenn> GoneWacko: you're currently doing HBO?
02:05:47 <GoneWacko> There are actually ways to get a master's degree through this HBO :|
02:06:03 <Korenn> then you should really do a technical course, the master is way more interesting than those of Drs. courses
02:07:10 <Korenn> and there are several openttd and ttdpatch development people who came through the UT :)
02:07:39 <GoneWacko> Well yes I suppose that was really what I was suggesting in the first place :p
02:07:39 <Gonozal_VIII> dr med... take all organs out, give each dr some of them, let them fix everything and then put the organs back in^^
02:09:32 * Sacro wants to follow in the footsteps of the greats
02:10:01 <GoneWacko> I know a bunch of tt-forumers (be it TTDPatch or OpenTTD) come from UT, I'm just not sure if I'd want to learn more or just be happy with my already insane salary when I finish HBO :p
02:10:29 <Korenn> that's true, you already have your bit of paper by then
02:11:23 <GoneWacko> but I'll see, first I'm going on a 6 month work placement in Finland in 3 weeks, then I'm doing a minor of another 6 months and then I'm doing another work placement to graduate :p
02:11:26 <Korenn> personally, I'd do it because it allows you to specialize in an area that interests you, far more than the HBO will allow you to
02:12:41 <Korenn> ugh... 3 am already... off to bed :)
02:13:11 <Korenn> gl in finland gonewacko, I hope you'll be going in the summer, horribly cold in the winter :P
02:13:59 <GoneWacko> well luckily it'll be Salo, which is at the south coast. But according to the Windows Vista sidebar it's currently -4°C there, it was -7°C a few hours ago :p
02:14:11 <GoneWacko> I'll be there in spring/summer luckily :o
02:40:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> hey, i have trees growing through a bridge :p
02:41:12 <Gonozal_VIII> now that's realism!
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03:04:01 <murray> in the same way flowers can grow through asphalt you know
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09:08:19 <Forked> is it talk like a pirate day again?
09:12:23 <Dominik> i used to have that "talk like a pirate" addon in wow. that was fun
09:12:36 <peter1138> hilarity ensued, i am sure
09:25:06 * peter1138 goes 'GAH' at CDP and non-Cisco kit...
09:33:31 <peter1138> You know what I'm talking about, right?
09:34:39 <Forked> I know about CDP and cisco equipment :)
09:35:01 <Forked> I even have my own little cisco-lab at home .. that I should play more with
09:36:05 <peter1138> You know about CDP and non--Cisco equipment too?
09:36:53 <Forked> but any cisco-protocol that is implemented by not-cisco sounds like something I'd try to avoid :)
09:36:57 <peter1138> Crap router (10baseT) -> non-cisco switch -> Decent router (100baseTX)
09:37:11 <peter1138> it's not implemented, but it's passed through
09:37:37 <peter1138> in that configuration, with cdp enabled, it will complain that the duplex and speed settings are wrong. every few minutes.
09:38:11 <peter1138> ah well, cdp isn't that useful except for occasional "where the hell is that plugged into" uses...
09:38:14 * Forked plays the clueless card once again
09:39:03 <Forked> hah I remember the scenarios in the CNAP curriculum (spelling?) .. what a wonderfull thing CDP is when the old network admin that suddenly left the company had not documentet a thing .. and you, the new one, wanted to see how it was.. good thing there was CDP then! :p
09:39:21 <peter1138> but only when it's all cisco kit, otherwise it tells lies :)
09:39:46 <peter1138> "hmm, this gigabit port appears to have two 10baseT devices on it!"
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09:40:43 <Forked> I haven't gotten a cisco-job yet though .. but working on it! infiltrated my own ISP now .. lurking in the shadows waiting for a chance
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10:41:37 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r11970 /trunk/src/engine.cpp: -Cleanup: Remove old comment
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10:47:56 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r11971 /trunk/src/ (elrail.cpp engine.cpp oldloader.cpp): -Codechange: use of FOR_ALL_ENGINES/ENGINEIDS_OF_TYPE instead of for-loops
10:49:28 <peter1138> heh, 1.2KB cleaned off :p
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12:57:48 <Ti> so how about them trains and busses huh
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13:43:02 <dih> hehe - some people really get on me nevers
13:43:20 <dih> when they think developers ow them anything
13:43:29 <dih> esp if it's an os project
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14:22:25 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: smatz * r11972 /trunk/src/ai/default/default.cpp: -Fix: old AI shouldn't build fast planes with a small airport in orders
14:24:13 <Eddi|zuHause2> old AI shouldn't do lots of things :p
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14:25:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> how about a project where you rip out the AI and replace it by a completely new scripting interface
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14:42:19 <glx> Eddi|zuHause2: something like NoAI? ;)
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14:49:52 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: frosch * r11973 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp newgrf.h): -Fix (r11726, r11947)[FS#1683]: Use grass tiles for corner shores, if shores got replaced by ActionA.
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14:57:55 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: frosch * r11974 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1684]: Shore and sea tiles under bridges were converted to canals in old savegames.
14:58:07 * frosch123 hates to collect all these numbers.
14:58:33 * hylje collects frosch123's numbers
14:58:33 * Belugas hates to compose meaninfull commit messages ;)
14:58:56 <Belugas> that more time than to actually code !
14:59:00 * frosch123 agrees with Belugas
15:02:19 * Digitalfox is testing a 4 sticks of RAM each 512 and the four are burn :(
15:02:36 * Digitalfox now thinks how to explain that to his client
15:04:54 * Belugas wishes good luck to Digitalfox ;)
15:05:28 <hylje> probably a broken mobo/PSU
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15:05:57 <Digitalfox> Now how the hell am i going to explain to my client that his kid burn the 4 sticks of 512MB of Ram by overclocking.. When this client never worked with a computer and know 0 about what a MHZ is.. :(
15:06:00 <Belugas> unfortunate drops of coffee
15:06:52 <Belugas> tell you client to ask his kid to explain to old daddy what overclocking means :)
15:07:01 <Belugas> as well as the dangers of it!
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15:11:08 <Gonozal_VIII> overclocking bad for ram ok... but why all 4 sticks at the same time?
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15:11:47 <Hendikins> Maybe after that he'll dish out mega-hurts to the son :P
15:13:16 <Gonozal_VIII> now to apply some more patches because patches are cool :-)
15:13:27 <Gonozal_VIII> all the cool kids have them
15:13:59 <Hendikins> Gonozal_VIII: Microsoft Windows is a patchwork quilt :P
15:14:17 <Gonozal_VIII> i already have daylength, disable tree growth and the build & refit patch
15:15:20 <Draakon> me only has Multiple sets patch and no industries closure and opeining one
15:15:33 <Hendikins> I don't use patches.
15:16:52 <peter1138> i don't use them either
15:17:01 <Draakon> i never stop using patches :P
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15:17:29 <Gonozal_VIII> no wonder you don't use them peter, you can just add anything you want to trunk^^
15:18:06 <Gonozal_VIII> yay copy & paste patch
15:18:56 <Draakon> Gonozal: but devs dont submit their work right away, they need to be tested
15:19:48 <Gonozal_VIII> daylength, disable tree growth and copy & paste had plenty of testing
15:19:58 <Draakon> which reminds me, i must thinking of getting PBS patch too
15:20:36 <Gonozal_VIII> i somehow want my trains to move out of depots and don't crash afterwards^^
15:21:26 <Draakon> that bug is fixed in the trunk in a ancient revisions ago
15:21:45 <Draakon> if you are meaning clean trunk
15:22:42 <Gonozal_VIII> pbs.. i just saw a screenshots of trains that were about to crash yesterday
15:25:30 <Gonozal_VIII> no something about pbs
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15:28:26 <Draakon> gargh! compiling failed
15:30:54 <peter1138> that pbs is a little... "risky"
15:31:53 <Draakon> and the author has made a patch in the wrong way too
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15:33:24 <Draakon> at last SVN fails for me on applying it
15:34:15 <Gonozal_VIII> i use that too :-) but didn't try pbs
15:35:36 <peter1138> tortoisesvn is good a failing on perfectly valid patches for no reason
15:36:08 <Gonozal_VIII> hehe indeed, had that yesterday with the build&refit patch
15:37:17 <Gonozal_VIII> failed to open the patch file because it didn't like a line in the file for some reason.. the line looked completely normal
15:39:14 <Gonozal_VIII> yay r11974 with copy & paste
15:39:56 <Gonozal_VIII> my compile didn't fail
15:44:10 <Draakon> and see what world is
15:45:16 <Gonozal_VIII> not again that video games make people violent crap
15:45:56 <Draakon> the thing is, one killed another for that game
15:46:38 <Gonozal_VIII> that guy would most likely have killed for different reasons too
15:46:59 <yorick> walls work really therapeutical
15:47:17 <Draakon> Gonozal: but currently he dint
15:53:21 <Gonozal_VIII> oh noes, i played too much openttd, now i'll steal a train and run over some trucks...
15:55:28 <Gonozal_VIII> afk calling the police?^^
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15:56:37 <Gonozal_VIII> [16:55:27] Gonozal_VIII: afk calling the police?^^
15:56:37 <Gonozal_VIII> [16:55:40] *** Draakon has joined #openttd.
15:58:23 <Gonozal_VIII> what's sh.exe.stackdump?
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16:04:56 <Gonozal_VIII> daylength_treegrowth_refit_copypaste_r11974.patch <-- filename gets longer and longer^^
16:05:52 <Draakon> why do you make the patches into one?
16:06:04 <Draakon> anyway my compiling is done too
16:06:10 <Gonozal_VIII> easier update to new revision
16:06:36 <Gonozal_VIII> and less conflicts
16:07:13 <yorick> and buildable with bottd :)
16:08:29 * Draakon wants some patches to be updated :P
16:08:38 <yorick> well...not that I use it, but it comes with a whole packet of libs
16:08:46 <LordAzamath> /Draakon wahts too much/
16:09:07 <Draakon> LA: and how do you know that?
16:09:44 <Draakon> well hes wrong anyway
16:09:59 <Gonozal_VIII> those patches were all for older revisions and applied without problems... guess i got lucky there
16:10:07 <peter1138> [TXT] enginepool20080116b...> 16-Jan-2008 17:56 75K
16:10:07 <peter1138> [TXT] enginepool20080122a...> 22-Jan-2008 19:23 74K
16:10:07 <peter1138> [TXT] enginepool20080124b...> 24-Jan-2008 16:09 73K
16:10:36 <Draakon> are they updated from r11813 too?
16:11:21 <Draakon> can you send me that one?
16:11:28 <yorick> more and more things are being included
16:11:45 * yorick wants to know where its used for
16:12:12 <Gonozal_VIII> enginepool is for more different vehicles
16:12:32 <Draakon> peter: where? it will be in revision 11971?
16:12:51 <yorick> Gonozal_VIII: really usefull ;)
16:12:53 <peter1138> no, that's the revision it's against
16:12:54 <Gonozal_VIII> imho trains, rvs and planes are enough but 11 ships?
16:13:24 <Draakon> only one ship set is out there so why need of increasing it?
16:13:58 <Gonozal_VIII> maybe there would be more ship sets with more possible ships?
16:14:06 <Digitalfox> peter1138: smaller?? Must be that comment you erased lol
16:14:10 <Gonozal_VIII> like river ships...
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16:14:16 <hylje> because its not much of a stretch to implement a generic way of doing stuff
16:16:47 <Draakon> peter: sorry i dint get you, must be of the direness
16:18:53 <Dominik> is it supposed to be possible to make rivers in the scn editor even when no river graphics are installed? there are graphical glitches when canal graphics are used on slopes
16:18:53 <Gonozal_VIII> hmmm now the only thing i'm missing in my game version is a platform type for transrapid track
16:19:32 <Gonozal_VIII> install river graphics and the glitches are gone
16:20:00 <Gonozal_VIII> placing rivers without them doesn't make much sense ;-)
16:20:21 <Dominik> that's what i mean, it shouldn't be possible imo
16:20:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> <Gonozal_VIII> i already have daylength, disable tree growth and the build & refit patch <- i have no fences, daylength, trains-stop-in-the-middle-of-platform and modified-terraforming-costs-fix
16:20:47 <Gonozal_VIII> trains stop in the middle of platform?
16:21:06 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, it's my own creation
16:21:17 <Gonozal_VIII> i have no fences too, but that's because i replace the sprites with emptyness
16:21:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> although i didn't ever officially release it
16:21:35 <Eddi|zuHause2> but i'm sure i put it somewhere
16:21:36 <hylje> hence the lack of neat name
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16:22:14 <Gonozal_VIII> and what does modified terraforming cost do?
16:22:33 <hylje> .. modify terraforming costs?
16:22:47 <Gonozal_VIII> i know that:P but how?
16:22:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> it's from wwottdgd, they patched the building of foundations to not be based on terraforming costs
16:23:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> to make terraforming really expensive, but foundations a reasonable alternative
16:23:28 <Gonozal_VIII> well, i don't care about that...
16:23:57 <Eddi|zuHause2> anyway, my patch could be at www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/middle_stop.diff
16:24:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> and it could possibly be against r10450 ;)
16:24:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> and i'm sure it had one minor conflict recently
16:25:23 <Eddi|zuHause2> the conflict was about the naming of a constant
16:26:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't change the deceleration though, so the realistic acceleration steers towards the end of the platform, and then does an "emergency stop"
16:26:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> it's completely savegame agnostic though
16:26:44 <Gonozal_VIII> O_o for such a small file it makes a lot of colourful lines
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16:28:47 <Eddi|zuHause2> what colourful lines?
16:29:04 <Gonozal_VIII> in tortoise merge
16:31:28 <yorick> I would like to see the move patch included :)
16:31:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> move patch? what does that do?
16:32:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> move trains? move aircraft?
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16:32:34 <Gonozal_VIII> that's a cheat^^
16:32:40 <Eddi|zuHause2> oh that... i don't think that would be widely useful
16:33:17 <Draakon> for games like WWOTTDG
16:33:42 <Eddi|zuHause2> i know, it was invented specifically for that
16:33:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> and i hardly think that anyone outside that project would use it...
16:34:25 <yorick> you know the feature it doesn't mind passworded companies?
16:34:38 <yorick> I think it would be usefull for admins
16:34:51 <yorick> to move themself between companies, to restore/change things
16:35:39 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, you don't have to convince me ;)
16:36:12 <Gonozal_VIII> bah stupid tortoise merge
16:36:44 <yorick> if I got someone saying it's not usefull, the patch will never be included ;)
16:36:49 <Gonozal_VIII> impossible to move the position of a line there?
16:37:37 <Eddi|zuHause2> it's not like anyone listens to me anyway :p
16:37:41 <Gonozal_VIII> stupid use mine before theirs and theirs before mine only shuffles the lines and creates chaos
16:38:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> Gonozal_VIII: yeah, it lacks an "edit manually" mode
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16:39:27 <Gonozal_VIII> can't apply your patch
16:39:31 <Eddi|zuHause2> the "patch" approach is probably better
16:39:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> it just adds the lines and puts conflict markers
16:40:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> patch -p0 -i <file>
16:40:34 <Gonozal_VIII> when i try to modify stuff manually, it usually stops working
16:40:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> i believe just a constant was renamed
16:41:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> and i believe it was OF_NON_STOP to OBF_NON_STOP or something
16:41:27 <Gonozal_VIII> it wants to place the if (bla train has to stop) after the variable declaration
16:41:47 <Gonozal_VIII> but only part of the if
16:42:17 <Gonozal_VIII> which is very much not good
16:42:55 <Gonozal_VIII> and i can't tell it to move the line one down...
16:43:42 <Eddi|zuHause2> how about www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/middle_stop2.diff ?
16:46:15 <Gonozal_VIII> train stops in the middle :-)
16:46:46 <Gonozal_VIII> thanks for that eddi
16:47:21 <Gonozal_VIII> now that's a strange... coast guard train
16:47:41 <Eddi|zuHause2> looks like a tram to me
16:47:51 <Gonozal_VIII> how can you tell?
16:48:00 <yorick> I'l see if I can slice the lively rivers into eatable chunks
16:48:23 <Gonozal_VIII> wtf you've already coded them? :O
16:48:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> Gonozal_VIII: it's about splitting the ideas down to easily programmable slices
16:49:22 <yorick> I'l start with rivers that just flood(everything) downwards and on same level
16:49:40 <Eddi|zuHause2> yay, whole map flooded ;)
16:49:51 <Gonozal_VIII> or start with introducing different tile types of water...
16:50:09 <yorick> I;m talking about ideas
16:50:13 <Gonozal_VIII> default, flooding, flowing and spring
16:50:30 <hylje> still, flowing, flooding, spring
16:50:47 <Eddi|zuHause2> you need spring flowing and spring flooding
16:51:11 <yorick> would that all fit in how-much-bytes-are-free-in-map-array?
16:51:26 <hylje> water tiles have plenty free i believe
16:51:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> afaik water has plenty of free bits
16:52:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> it only gets worse if you want to add half-flooded houses and stuff ;)
16:52:09 <yorick> they only know they're "water"
16:52:40 <Gonozal_VIII> hmmm train can now stop multiple times at the same station in one go
16:53:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> Gonozal_VIII: only if you have the order multiple times
16:53:10 <Gonozal_VIII> or only one order^^
16:53:46 <yorick> I will start with removing lakes, instead "water level can not go above 4", for the moment
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16:54:47 <hylje> water level isn't worth the effort in my view
16:55:06 <hylje> a water body will have an uniform water level for all we know
16:55:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> water level beyond "flowing" and "flooding" should not be in the initial version
16:55:38 <hylje> a lake can't have different levels of water
16:56:04 <yorick> but it has to increase-in versions after initial
16:56:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> water level gets interesting on merging rivers
16:56:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> it doesn't have to be height levels
16:56:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> but might be width levels
16:56:22 <Gonozal_VIII> hmmm the northern end of our lake is several meters lower than the southern
16:56:33 <hylje> Eddi|zuHause2: width levels, a novel idea
16:56:55 <yorick> merging isn't even in our plan
16:57:01 <hylje> Gonozal_VIII: and that's a free-flowing lake?
16:57:51 <Gonozal_VIII> water flows slowly towards the lower end where a river starts :-)
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16:59:01 <hylje> i dont think we want to bother with that
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16:59:40 <yorick> Gonozal: are you going to draw the needed graphics, for the different water levels?
17:00:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> i explained my thoughts a while ago: like -4: dry river bed, -3: small stream, -2..-1 wider stream, [new] 0: ship-able, +1: floods to adjacent plain, +2: floods to adjacent infrastructure (rail, road, house), +3: floods over reinforced shore/canal, +4 [=-3] raise tile
17:00:07 <yorick> I think the visual representing starts at 0, and not at -4
17:00:13 <Gonozal_VIII> but that width thing sounds good
17:01:18 <Eddi|zuHause2> you also might shift this -4..+3 range to 0..7
17:02:12 <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't even have a wiki account
17:03:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> but water level should be implemented later
17:03:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> basic expansion should be enough for now
17:03:42 * yorick thinks Eddi doesn't want to edit the wiki(shy! :O)
17:04:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> meaning from the spring you go linearly straight and downwards, until you hit a water tile
17:05:10 <hylje> Eddi|zuHause2: you can edit the wiki anonymously
17:05:21 <yorick> with your ip displayed
17:05:22 <Eddi|zuHause2> that's no fun ;)
17:05:31 <Gonozal_VIII> if you don't hit water?
17:05:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> my preciousss ip!
17:05:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> Gonozal_VIII: if you don't hit water, you are in the special case of a 1x1 hole
17:06:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> you can adjust to that
17:06:09 <yorick> fixed by the lake idea
17:06:23 <Gonozal_VIII> linearly straight <-- nope^^
17:06:40 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, don't take "straight" too literal ;)
17:06:58 <yorick> The newly flooded tile's flow direction can change from the original. Mostly though straight ahead (using the flow direction of the original): chances can be like 3/4 straight, 1/8 to left and right each.
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17:07:27 <Gonozal_VIII> yep i know... but straight ;-)
17:07:46 <Eddi|zuHause2> if you hit a wall, you change direction, if you are trapped, you will end up at a place where you only have the chance of going to a previously flooded tile -> tadaa
17:08:00 * yorick is wondering if Prof_Frink is listening, at least now he is :)
17:08:11 <hylje> basically snake with rivers
17:08:26 <hylje> there's some good ideas
17:08:55 <Gonozal_VIII> where you only have the chance of going to a previously flooded tile -> tadaa... game over
17:08:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> yorick: ignore lakes... lakes == later step
17:09:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, it's basically snake
17:11:30 * yorick gives up slicing and leaves work to eddi
17:11:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> what did i do to deserve that?
17:12:22 <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't have time to resolve that properly
17:12:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> just giving hints
17:13:10 <Gonozal_VIII> daylength_treegrowth_refit_copypaste_middlestop_r11974.patch <-- btw^^
17:13:30 <hylje> remember to write up stuff
17:14:26 <yorick> hey-the one that suggest-has to write it on the wiki
17:16:50 <yorick> Gonozal_VIII: now write a patch that is compantible with openttd servers
17:17:15 <Gonozal_VIII> kind of impossible with things like daylength^^
17:17:52 <Gonozal_VIII> the build and refit and copy&paste patches could work
17:18:04 <peter1138> build and refit is broken
17:18:08 <peter1138> unless it got fixed
17:18:52 <Gonozal_VIII> the default window size is too small... but other than that it works fine
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17:19:04 <yorick> I made a new version with dropdown. It looks better now, you can see full cargo name and not just abbreviation.
17:19:04 <yorick> Screenshot and diff file are in first post.
17:20:05 <peter1138> if (DoCommandP()) DoCommandP()
17:20:51 <yorick> Gonozal_VIII will find out
17:21:55 <Gonozal_VIII> well, it works for me...
17:22:02 <Gonozal_VIII> don't know what should be broken
17:22:41 <yorick> [18:20] <@peter1138> if (DoCommandP()) DoCommandP()
17:22:54 <yorick> would mean the building or the refitting or both
17:23:22 <Gonozal_VIII> yes i read that but i didn't see anything broken ingame
17:23:43 <yorick> you dont have to see it, but try building something
17:24:07 <yorick> Ammler: what do you mean?
17:24:31 <Ammler> the patch you linked to, isn't from you?
17:24:57 <Gonozal_VIII> a friend of mine just suggested to list vehicles of same type but refitted to different cargo seperately in the autoreplace window
17:25:29 <Ammler> [18:19] <yorick> I made a new version with dropdown. It looks better now, you can see full cargo name and not just abbreviation. <-- was that a quote?
17:26:00 <yorick> [18:19] <yorick> <quote from topic>
17:26:08 <Gonozal_VIII> [18:17:51] Bartleby: man kann also eine waggonart die 2 verschiedene sachen transportiert durch 2 verschiedene waggons gleichzeitig ersetzen?
17:26:15 <Gonozal_VIII> that's what he said
17:26:34 <yorick> I don't even speak german that good
17:27:01 <Gonozal_VIII> he thought that the build&refit patch would do that
17:27:08 <Ammler> Gonozal_VIII: german tt channel?
17:27:50 <Gonozal_VIII> i translated & rephrased it to be a suggestion ;-)
17:27:52 <Gonozal_VIII> [18:24:56] Gonozal_VIII: a friend of mine just suggested to list vehicles of same type but refitted to different cargo seperately in the autoreplace window
17:28:35 <Gonozal_VIII> and i didn't know there was a german channel
17:31:36 <Gonozal_VIII> would that be difficult to do?
17:31:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> i've only seen a german forum, not a german channel
17:32:27 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: frosch * r11975 /trunk/docs/landscape_grid.html: -Documentation: Distinguish between station types in 'landscape_grid.html'.
17:32:45 <Gonozal_VIII> aaaah, was that a question about the source of my quote? that was icq
17:34:52 <Eddi|zuHause2> <Gonozal_VIII> a friend of mine just suggested to list vehicles of same type but refitted to different cargo seperately in the autoreplace window <- he can put the trains into different groups, and then set rules for the groups separately
17:35:29 <Gonozal_VIII> yes but that's more work :-)
17:36:18 <Eddi|zuHause2> more work than setting up compiler, find appropriate code, change code, bug-test it, add to flyspray, get it committed?
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17:37:00 <yorick> the last will need the most work
17:37:17 <Gonozal_VIII> if you have for exampe lots of different routes where you transport coal and lots of different routes where you transport cereals and you use the same waggons for that but then a new better one is available that can only transport coal...
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17:40:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> you can still first replace all coal wagons, then all cereal wagons
17:40:50 <Gonozal_VIII> for all the routes...
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17:41:44 <Gonozal_VIII> or even mixed trains...
17:42:07 <Gonozal_VIII> passenger/tourist wagons... you only want to upgrade the tourist wagons
17:42:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> you will always find a scenario which fails for autoreplace
17:43:27 <Gonozal_VIII> with seperated entries for different refits, it's much less likely :-)
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17:45:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> and why would you only want to replace tourist wagons?
17:46:43 <Gonozal_VIII> because you like the other tourist wagons better?
17:47:28 <Gonozal_VIII> something like restaurant or sleeping wagon maybe...
17:48:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> anyway, listing each vehicle for each refit option will make the list extremely crowded, when each wagon has like 30 refit options
17:49:09 <Gonozal_VIII> only the ones you use of course
17:53:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> who says you don't use 40 refit options?
17:54:10 <Gonozal_VIII> then the crowded list is ok
17:55:42 <Gonozal_VIII> oh i think i understood him wrong
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18:16:16 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: belugas * r11976 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix: It seems that industries using results 0D/0E on callback cb29/35 were a bit too eager to close down.
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18:29:04 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: belugas * r11977 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp:
18:29:04 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: -Fix(r11976): not a typo, not a bug. Just a removal that should have been done.
18:29:04 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: Would help to compile first...
18:30:04 <Sacro> Belugas: i wanna be a dev :(
18:30:32 <Gonozal_VIII> you are a dev :P
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18:31:28 * Sacro ponders what to do next
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18:32:29 <Gonozal_VIII> newbugs branch^^
18:33:22 <peter1138> we have a special one for that
18:35:19 <Gonozal_VIII> WDP_AUTO, WDP_AUTO, 240, 174, 240, 256,
18:35:59 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: skidd13 * r11978 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Replace some global variables with window owned ones
18:36:02 <Gonozal_VIII> search function :S
18:36:04 <skidd13> Gonozal_VIII: wiki should be helpfull
18:36:09 <glx> the 4 numbers are min size and default size
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18:36:28 <Gonozal_VIII> yay, default size is what i was looking for
18:36:32 <skidd13> and the first two are placement
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18:40:22 <Gonozal_VIII> error, error, lots of errors...
18:41:14 <Gonozal_VIII> huh, errors in command queue :S didn't change that
18:41:17 <Draakon> what are you compiling?
18:41:55 <Gonozal_VIII> openttd with patches
18:42:35 <Gonozal_VIII> daylength_treegrowth_refit_copypaste_middlestop_r11974.patch
18:43:01 <Draakon> paste your errors to paste.openttd.org :)
18:43:14 <Gonozal_VIII> can't copy console stuff
18:43:42 <Gonozal_VIII> and the command queue is from copy paste patch... worked some minutes ago and i didn't change it
18:44:03 <Draakon> what compiler are you using?
18:44:32 <glx> Gonozal_VIII: you applied the patch twice
18:45:08 <Gonozal_VIII> ah right... didn't delete the old command queue file
18:45:11 <Draakon> gonozal: i use it too but i can copy from it
18:46:47 <Gonozal_VIII> very likely that that's the problem, thanks glx
18:47:19 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11979 /trunk/ (13 files in 3 dirs):
18:47:19 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: -Codechange: drop MSVC 2003 support because MSVC 2003 is broken in such a manner
18:47:19 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: that it triggers an internal compiler error without any clue what of the code is
18:47:19 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: wrong. Even trying to bisect the problem does not give a single line of code
18:47:19 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: that causes the trouble.
18:48:09 <Draakon> Gonozal: i have got that error many times too by applying a patch twice
18:51:11 <Gonozal_VIII> hehe now the patch failed to apply because the vcproj file is gone
18:52:14 <Draakon> mingw does not need that one
18:52:30 <Gonozal_VIII> i removed the lines from the patch
18:53:11 <Draakon> you should do this: do new SVN checkout, apply your patches, then compile
18:53:28 *** Yorick|food is now known as Yorick
18:53:32 <Gonozal_VIII> that's what i do :P
18:53:47 <Gonozal_VIII> but the patch wants to change the svproj file
18:54:27 <Gonozal_VIII> and for some strange reason configure only works the second time
18:54:55 <Gonozal_VIII> first time it complains that endian thing is not defined
18:58:12 <Yorick> that's what im asking you
18:58:17 <Gonozal_VIII> compiling worked
18:58:45 <Gonozal_VIII> and the default size is changed :D
19:00:08 <Gonozal_VIII> cool, now the cargotype filter dropdown and those long vehicle names that serbian rail set uses fit in the default size
19:00:09 <Draakon> what did you do then? :=)
19:00:48 <Gonozal_VIII> WDP_AUTO, WDP_AUTO, 240, 174, 240, 256, <-- changed the 240 in that line to 386
19:01:08 <Gonozal_VIII> (found the best size through a screenshot)
19:01:42 <Gonozal_VIII> only the 2nd 240...
19:03:00 <Gonozal_VIII> (serbian rail set has some very long names)^^
19:06:14 <Gonozal_VIII> makes me very happy when i change something and it works :D
19:07:29 *** AntB is now known as Guest434
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19:16:43 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o peter1138
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19:22:18 <Draakon> i have a question: if i have a desert map, i switch to temperate map with a cheat, do towns that were in desert still need water to crow if i changed to temperate map with a cheat?
19:23:40 <Gonozal_VIII> that would be bad... no water there
19:23:43 *** Greysc[a]le is now known as Greyscale
19:24:17 <Draakon> but still do towns that required water require water after change?
19:24:30 <Gonozal_VIII> no idea, test it
19:26:22 <Belugas> so, we do not think so!
19:27:01 <Yorick> "You will be assimilated!"
19:27:52 <Gonozal_VIII> renaissance is furniture!
19:28:04 <Draakon> so on change towns dont need water? :)
19:29:19 <Yorick> Belugas: I thought the same!
19:30:03 <Yorick> You will be Islaminated
19:30:19 <Draakon> but is the town growth affected how much passengers a city will get?
19:31:16 <Yorick> only how frequent stations are serviced
19:31:25 <Yorick> and how much of them are there
19:31:39 <Yorick> and how much goods/food/water is transported to the town
19:32:07 <Gonozal_VIII> really how much? not only yes/no?
19:32:30 <peter1138> goods has no effefct
19:33:15 <Draakon> food and water has effect
19:33:47 <Draakon> in arctic and desert only
19:33:50 <peter1138> actually food and water have no effect
19:33:55 <peter1138> absense of them has an effect
19:35:12 <Draakon> can this be removed from grf coding or it is coded into source?
19:35:25 <Yorick> I cant find it in the source...
19:35:35 <peter1138> grfs can define which cargo types behave as water and food
19:35:45 <peter1138> but now how it behaves after that
19:36:12 <Yorick> transporting water in a food container :)
19:36:21 <peter1138> src/town_cmd.cpp:2170
19:36:58 <Yorick> I thought I searched that file
19:37:31 <Yorick> why the t->population > 90?
19:37:51 <Gonozal_VIII> grows to 90 without water i guess
19:37:53 <peter1138> because small towns may not accept food or water
19:38:02 <peter1138> so you'd never be able to supply
19:38:24 <Yorick> the t->act_food==0 won't trigger?
19:38:51 <Yorick> [20:33] <@peter1138> absense of them has an effect
19:39:51 <peter1138> maybe one day there's be stuff to change all that
19:40:36 <Yorick> I guess that "one day" will be pretty soon then
19:40:42 * Draakon builds a train which has length of 64
19:41:11 <peter1138> just making stuff up, heh
19:41:21 <peter1138> Draakon, do you want a medal?
19:41:32 <Yorick> he has to let it crash
19:41:37 <Draakon> i cant make a train larger than 101 carries
19:42:12 <Yorick> even mamoth trains doesnt go that far
19:42:13 <Gonozal_VIII> 100 of them makes a 200 tile train
19:42:39 <Draakon> 2 carries make 1 tile long train
19:43:02 <Belugas> [14:44] * @peter1138 winks at Belugas <--- i do not know this guy, i totally refute any assumptions based on this wink
19:43:24 <Gonozal_VIII> ah you mean real tiles
19:43:38 <Draakon> whit means if train to be 64 tiles long it needs to have 128 carriers
19:43:47 <Draakon> game currently lets only 101 carriers
19:43:52 <Gonozal_VIII> you can still do that
19:44:02 <Gonozal_VIII> double engines :P
19:44:03 <Belugas> compilagination of nightlies is done
19:44:34 * Belugas hopes over zealous industries would be history now
19:44:51 <Draakon> gonozal: i should add one more engine then?
19:45:13 <Gonozal_VIII> there are engines that consist of 2 parts
19:46:35 <peter1138> there are maglev 'engines' that consist of 6 or more parts
19:46:51 <Draakon> which cant carry passengers
19:49:11 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
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19:51:17 <Draakon> ok now time to see if desert towns need water if i change climate to temperate by cheat
19:51:52 <peter1138> only if you changed the code
19:52:07 <Yorick> _opt.landscape == LT_TROPIC
19:52:18 * Belugas warns Draakon TO EVER post a bug report based on cheat abuse!
19:52:40 *** Diabolic-Angel has joined #openttd
19:53:33 <Draakon> anyway, yes towns dont need water if they are desert ones and climate is changed from desert to temperate by cheat
19:53:38 <Belugas> reads: if ever you think this or that is a bug, and that is happened while playing with the cheats, please, do not report it as a bug
19:54:19 <Yorick> where is the cheat engine stored?
19:55:51 * Yorick knows he is asking dumb questions
19:57:16 <Draakon> its not a dumb one, i would like to know too :P
19:58:07 * Belugas thinks that a simple search would be required
19:59:34 <Yorick> if I just would find out how to get grep to search all files in current dir...
20:00:02 <Belugas> taht indeed woldbe a start :D
20:00:22 <Yorick> I has done it last time
20:00:30 <Yorick> but I cant find out today
20:00:36 <Belugas> MSVC has a nice build-in search engine
20:00:46 <Yorick> yes, but I don't use MSVC
20:01:12 <Yorick> only because it begins with "M" that stands for "Microsoft"
20:01:30 * Yorick had no choice when installing windows
20:01:49 <Forked> does that search engine include a dog?
20:01:50 *** AntB is now known as Guest442
20:01:59 <Yorick> grep: .: Invalid request code
20:02:53 <Prof_Frink> What's wrong with `grep pattern *` ?
20:02:58 <Draakon> belugas: if you find that file, can you tell me which one is it?
20:03:02 <SpComb> Prof_Frink: doesn't recurse into subdirs, I guess
20:03:12 <SpComb> and what's wrong with rgrep?
20:03:19 <SpComb> grep foo *.c might make sense, but
20:03:21 <Prof_Frink> SpComb: That's not what was being asked (:
20:03:34 <Belugas> I'm not searching for it
20:03:40 <Prof_Frink> "search all files in current dir"
20:03:49 <Yorick> except for all files ending with .cpp nowadays
20:03:59 <Belugas> but I can tell you it is a cpp file
20:04:13 <Belugas> that MIGHT be involved with SETTINGS
20:04:25 * SpComb greps Prof_Frink with a fork
20:04:41 * Prof_Frink greps SpComb for a fork
20:05:15 <Yorick> for being so helpfull today
20:05:26 * Yorick gives Belugas a cookie
20:06:39 <Belugas> needless to say, the Graphical User Interface file is easy to spot too ;)
20:06:54 <Belugas> since it is about G U I
20:07:06 <Yorick> I don't expect cheats to be in mist_gui.cpp
20:07:19 <Belugas> might be surprised what's in misc_gui :P
20:07:28 <Yorick> I do expect them to be in cheat_gui.cpp :)
20:08:18 <Yorick> something went wrong there
20:08:45 <Belugas> well... cheat_gui might eventually exists
20:09:03 <Belugas> trhere is a plan for having a source file for each gui
20:09:09 <Belugas> but now, it is not the case
20:09:38 <Prof_Frink> Belugas: cheats should done as console commands
20:09:50 <Yorick> only for "advanced" users
20:10:07 <Draakon> static int32 ClickMoneyCheat(int32 p1, int32 p2)
20:10:14 <Draakon> is this money cheat code?
20:10:24 <Prof_Frink> Double points for making "idkfa" allow all vehicles to be bought
20:10:53 <Yorick> Draakon: no, offcource not! ;)
20:12:14 <Belugas> Draakon, No. This is the code required for call ing a pizza on a blue moon night :P
20:12:40 <Draakon> cheech, nobody helping me out :(
20:13:27 <Yorick> that is a dumb question
20:13:43 <Yorick> one suggestion: learn ANY programming language
20:14:01 <Yorick> and you'll get much further at using cpp :)
20:16:59 <Draakon> how come a normal TT savegame has too many stations for OpenTTD? :S
20:17:00 <hylje> try something not restricted by silly technicalities
20:18:50 <Yorick> the real money cheat is at misc_cmd.cpp:353
20:19:41 <Yorick> hylje: try to say some more languages that do not even look like C
20:22:47 <Draakon> hmm, i see it too, too bad i cant see a number to change amount of money will be got from that cheat :P
20:23:20 <Gonozal_VIII> you want to get even more per click?
20:24:41 <Yorick> you'l have to modify the misc_gui.cpp file
20:24:52 <Yorick> DoCommandP(0, 10000000, 0, NULL, CMD_MONEY_CHEAT);
20:25:05 <Yorick> change the 10000000 value
20:34:00 *** DannyMac has joined #openttd
20:34:21 <DannyMac> anybody on here know bjarni?
20:34:45 <Gonozal_VIII> bjarni? no, never heard of a nick like that
20:35:17 <DannyMac> he looks after the OS X port of open ttd.
20:36:12 <DannyMac> nevermind, ive got his email from the openttd site
20:37:08 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
20:37:18 <Digitalfox> Well i'm not a programmer, but is it possible to open a DLL and edit it?
20:37:30 *** planetmaker has joined #openttd
20:37:55 <blathijs> I tried once, swapping all occurences of "Letter" with "A4" and vice versie
20:37:57 <Bjarni> Gonozal_VIII: I got to change my nick to something you can't type that fast
20:38:03 <blathijs> still made my printer settings default to Letter, though
20:38:13 <planetmaker> hi, anyone knows which file is broken if the standard coasts are not displayed correctly (nightly 11947)?
20:38:16 <Yorick> [21:34] <DannyMac> anybody on here know bjarni?
20:38:32 <Yorick> planetmaker: could have something to do with missing shores?
20:38:32 <Bjarni> like typing "Bjarni" in Asian chars
20:39:03 <Digitalfox> Well my problem, my notebook uses ATI AGP Gart driver, that is made for XP, and ATI doesn't care for vista users, so and since other companys have released Gart drivers for vista, would it be possible for to open them and compare and change what could be the problem?? I know this rather crazy idea, but if it's possible to do, why not try..
20:39:06 <Bjarni> DannyMac: I think you really want me to do something for you
20:39:12 <planetmaker> yorick: don't know. just re-installed the ottdcoop grf pack and didn't help...
20:39:15 <Bjarni> like requesting a new binary
20:39:31 <Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> bad bjarni <-- I can't... I already tried >_<
20:40:05 <planetmaker> apropos, bjarni: ages ago I posted a bug report about crashing the mac versions with display resolutions other than 640x480.
20:40:16 <planetmaker> you still interested in my config as you closed it?
20:40:30 <planetmaker> still works with 11947...
20:40:38 <Bjarni> I closed it because the user didn't replied in ages ;)
20:40:45 <planetmaker> peter:thx, will try to replace it
20:40:51 <Bjarni> standard procedure as so much happened in the meantime
20:40:57 <DannyMac> you ever work out what was wrong with the server compiles?
20:41:08 <planetmaker> bjarni: I know *blush*. I only seldom play on my laptop though. That's why...
20:41:16 <Bjarni> planetmaker: is the problem still showing up at your computer?
20:41:31 <Bjarni> DannyMac: yeah... the linker is borked
20:41:45 <Bjarni> fixing it is a whole different story though :(
20:42:03 <DannyMac> thought an element of sods law would come into it
20:42:41 <DannyMac> im just saying, something not working with my computer would be hard to fix -"sods law"
20:43:28 <planetmaker> bjarni: yes. just crashed :)
20:43:50 <DannyMac> can you do me a MASSIVE favour and compile me a copy?
20:44:33 <DannyMac> r11947, beaten to it
20:44:48 <Bjarni> planetmaker: can you remember what the bug report number was?
20:45:05 <planetmaker> bjarni, will find out
20:45:39 *** Rexxars has joined #openttd
20:48:43 <planetmaker> bjarni: was report #1488
20:50:41 *** thgerg1 has joined #openttd
20:51:27 <Bjarni> planetmaker: now you can attach the config file
20:59:51 *** AntB is now known as Guest447
21:00:54 <planetmaker> what's up with bugs.openttd.org.
21:01:02 <planetmaker> I cannot connect ...
21:04:42 *** Progman has joined #openttd
21:13:39 <planetmaker> odd. Everything else wrt to networking works for me...
21:15:27 <Bjarni> how is it not working?
21:15:36 <Bjarni> I can use it just normally
21:16:21 <planetmaker> When searching for issue #1488 it's never getting anywhere. Or when looking for it in the whole list nothing happens, if I click on it...
21:17:17 <planetmaker> the ping times are fine with 64msec
21:17:46 <planetmaker> yes. And Safari tells me it cannot open as the server isn't responding anymore... :(
21:18:07 <planetmaker> I'll keep trying...
21:18:53 *** Frostregen has joined #openttd
21:18:59 <Bjarni> here it works in safari too
21:22:19 <planetmaker> anyway. I transferred it to my desktop computer. I have much more frequent access there - in case it shouldn't work today...
21:25:15 <Bjarni> btw test the config on your desktop computer as well (just in case)
21:25:25 <Bjarni> remember that it overwrites the config when using it
21:26:19 <planetmaker> It's odd. I didn't have problem accessing the web page from my desktop computer... very strange.
21:26:50 <Bjarni> are you sure it's not your notebook that's broken?
21:26:51 <planetmaker> files are uploaded. cfg which works, cfg which crashes and a new crash log from today.
21:27:02 <planetmaker> I just get serious doubts.
21:27:23 <planetmaker> But I wonder... It's nearly as out of the box... :/
21:27:26 <Bjarni> you could have borked the system
21:27:33 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
21:27:38 <Bjarni> but I have no idea how you could manage to do that
21:28:06 <Bjarni> you could have filled up the HD more or less completely which is a bad idea
21:28:24 <planetmaker> no, I've something like 60GB free space.
21:28:34 <Brianetta> A comfortable amount.
21:28:35 <planetmaker> Only installed something like paralles desktop and stuffit.
21:28:48 <Bjarni> 60 GB is nice on a portable device
21:29:07 <Bjarni> parallels can really take up room if you make a big disk image :p
21:29:42 <planetmaker> It can. But parallels only has a minimalistic win install with powerpoint as i don't own a mac version thereof
21:30:04 <planetmaker> and paralells is configured such that it uses mac's hard disk.
21:30:28 <Bjarni> I'm not that much into parallels but if you can control that stuff then it's fine
21:30:46 <planetmaker> anyway, it's still 60GB free space that remains, not overall.
21:32:01 <Bjarni> as long as you ensure that you always have more than say 10 GB free then there should not be any issues
21:32:22 <Bjarni> but the more you have free the better
21:32:38 <Bjarni> anyway I have no idea what's wrong with your computer
21:33:24 <planetmaker> It's just... funny. Elsewhere I don't have any issues whatsoever...
21:33:54 <Bjarni> that config file works just fine
21:34:09 <Bjarni> it sets the game to German though
21:34:23 <planetmaker> yes, it does on my desktop, too
21:34:32 <planetmaker> That's fine for me :)
21:36:25 <Gonozal_VIII> german sucks for ottd
21:36:31 <Gonozal_VIII> everything too long
21:37:33 <Bjarni> Gonozal_VIII: you can become a German translator and fix that issue if you like
21:37:50 <Gonozal_VIII> it's translated correctly...
21:38:06 <Bjarni> planetmaker: well... do you feel like installing a debugger and figure out where it crashes?
21:38:35 <Gonozal_VIII> would have to leave parts out everywhere
21:38:36 <Bjarni> Gonozal_VIII: I meant figuring out how to write the same with fewer letters
21:39:06 <planetmaker> I can do that. But I'd need a step by step instruction as I'm not that familiar with mac peculiarities
21:39:59 <Gonozal_VIII> but i randomly tried some other languages and most of them have longer strings than english
21:40:02 <Bjarni> are you familiar with gdb?
21:40:17 <planetmaker> Not very. I know it by name.
21:40:45 <Bjarni> basically just install Xcode (as new as possible)
21:41:36 <Bjarni> then get the source and compile it with make and then write "make run-gdb" and it will do the rest for you
21:42:08 <planetmaker> okay... working on it
21:42:12 <Bjarni> naturally I have no idea on what goes wrong when I can't reproduce it and I have no idea where in the code it crashes
21:42:31 <Rubidium> Bjarni: tell him to configure with debugging symbols
21:43:00 <Bjarni> planetmaker: tell when you have installed Xcode and have the source ;)
21:43:12 <Belugas> bye bye, good night all
21:47:13 <planetmaker> bjarni: do I need to get the gdb code or is it included in the xcode?
21:47:24 <Bjarni> it's included in Xcode
21:47:36 <Bjarni> basically Xcode contains everything you need
21:48:13 <Bjarni> except for libpng and svn but we can do without those two for now
21:48:53 <planetmaker> Do I need ottd source?
21:49:06 <Bjarni> just download the source from the nightly build
21:53:33 <planetmaker> okay. got source and xcode installed
21:54:31 <Bjarni> cd into the right dir (the source dir)
21:54:34 <planetmaker> any options to make?
21:54:45 <Bjarni> you need to run configure first
21:54:54 <planetmaker> oh. right. any options to that?
21:55:00 <Bjarni> "./configure --enable-debug=3"
21:55:48 <Bjarni> and while compiling COPY (not move) the broken openttd.cfg into the bin dir
21:59:20 <Bjarni> either you aren't telling me when it's done or you haven't got state of the art MacBook Pro
21:59:28 <planetmaker> okay. Compiling and copying done
21:59:29 <Bjarni> we both hope for the first ;)
21:59:36 <planetmaker> it's a normal macbook
22:00:03 <Bjarni> so... type "make run-gdb"
22:00:22 <Bjarni> then "run" (inside gdb)
22:00:29 <Bjarni> and wait for it to crash
22:01:47 <planetmaker> Program received signal EXC_BAD_ACCESS, Could not access memory.
22:01:49 <planetmaker> Reason: KERN_PROTECTION_FAILURE at address: 0x00000000
22:01:50 <planetmaker> 0x00000000 in ?? ()
22:02:06 <Bjarni> NULL pointer exception
22:02:11 <Bjarni> but something went wrong
22:02:19 <Bjarni> it should tell WHERE in the code it happened
22:02:37 <Bjarni> and we can see the stack
22:02:43 <planetmaker> just saw: it's complaing about sample.cat
22:02:47 <Rubidium> planetmaker: and post the bt on paste.openttd.org, not in this channel
22:02:59 <Bjarni> that goes without saying
22:03:22 <planetmaker> don't understand though. copied it from my running desktop...
22:03:23 <Bjarni> nobody will post a full stack in the channel and live to see the next sunrise
22:03:47 <Bjarni> it shouldn't make this error even if sample.cat is missing
22:04:25 <Bjarni> then it should call the error command and make a nice little popup window telling what went wrong
22:04:27 <peter1138> especially if it involved recursion
22:05:57 <Prof_Frink> There was an error creating the error dialogue: The error was "There was an error creating the error dialogue: The error was "There was an error creating the error dialogue: The error was "There was an error creating the error dialogue: The error was "There was an error creating the error dialogue...
22:08:07 <planetmaker> anyway, the output of bt is pasted on the given address (didn't know it existed, though...)
22:08:12 <Bjarni> Prof_Frink: you will be dead before sunrise
22:08:45 <Bjarni> that stack looks really odd
22:09:10 * Prof_Frink shoots down the sun
22:09:19 <Bjarni> in fact I have never seen anything like it
22:09:35 <Bjarni> I go for "(corrupt stack?)"
22:09:39 <planetmaker> Now. That's something *I* find odd...
22:10:38 * Bjarni wonders how to tell pm to read a pm without sounding odd
22:11:04 <planetmaker> how do I quit gdb? I could give it a new try with a working data directory from my desktop
22:11:18 * Bjarni sends a pm to pm about how to use pm when he should pm people
22:11:19 <planetmaker> :D I thought about that already, too. Don't know :P
22:11:43 <Bjarni> you quit qdb by typing quit
22:11:53 <Bjarni> or is it exit... I always try both :P
22:12:14 <Bjarni> I use it countless times and I still manage to do this part wrong once in a while
22:13:18 <Bjarni> planetmaker: I have no idea on what went wrong so I can't solve it
22:14:45 <planetmaker> bjarni: got another error message now. see paste.openttd.org
22:15:40 <Bjarni> apart from the fact that it makes no sense
22:16:06 <planetmaker> I see sound... ?!?
22:16:26 <Bjarni> if you increase the window size then you extend it so you can see the maglev depot and it tries to play the maglev sounds
22:16:45 <Bjarni> if you can't see the depot (or whatever tile is causing this) then main menu can start just fine
22:17:03 <Bjarni> because the tile triggering this crash is outside the screen and will not play sounds
22:17:14 <planetmaker> I see it, yes, just at the edge.
22:17:35 <planetmaker> So it's a bloody sound problem? (Sorry my language)
22:17:51 <dih> we excuse the word 'sound' :-)
22:19:47 <planetmaker> Is there a way to get rid of any sound - which would sort-of circumvent this problem?
22:20:14 <dih> perhaps with a ./configure switch
22:20:51 <Bjarni> it's "./openttd -s null" or something like that
22:21:18 <planetmaker> you mean open it in an editor, right?
22:21:58 <Bjarni> I mean executing from terminal instead of the bundle
22:22:04 <Bjarni> with the argument to mute sounds
22:22:30 <planetmaker> sorry. couldn't read. read "openttd.h" :)
22:23:15 <Bjarni> "./openttd -s null" <-- this one starts a mute game here
22:23:24 <Bjarni> the question is if it's enough
22:23:29 <planetmaker> tried that. crashes, too
22:23:53 <Bjarni> then it's because the sound is read and not forwarded to the sound driver when using null
22:24:14 <dih> why read the sound when not wanting it?
22:24:54 <Bjarni> because the null driver isn't a clever one
22:26:06 <dih> call it 'the super null driver'
22:28:33 <Bjarni> it sounds like your sample.cat is broken
22:28:42 <Bjarni> maybe you should replace it with a known good one
22:28:45 <planetmaker> it tells me that.
22:29:04 <Bjarni> and ensure that it's in the data dir
22:29:34 <planetmaker> is there anything special I've to consider when copying from a windows machine to my mac?
22:29:55 <Bjarni> those days should be over
22:29:57 <planetmaker> that's what I just did and it still tells me that sample cat and openttdw.grf are corrupted...
22:30:09 <dih> Bjarni: fixed the pasting on macs? :-)
22:30:20 <Bjarni> dih: didn't look at it at all
22:30:29 <Bjarni> didn't think about it either
22:30:34 <Korenn> planetmaker: is it a version that you used a .exe on?
22:30:53 <dih> just wanted to tease you before i post it on bugs.openttd.org :-D
22:32:06 <planetmaker> okay, copied it again. Now sample.cat isn't broken anymore, but openttdw.grf still... strange
22:32:26 <Bjarni> you should only copy the TTD files
22:32:38 <planetmaker> korenn: yes. from a working version of ottd on my win machine
22:32:44 <Bjarni> because the ones that comes with OpenTTD are hidden inside the bundle
22:33:02 <Bjarni> so delete all grf files that doesn't start with tr
22:34:39 <planetmaker> doesn't seem to crash now anymore...
22:37:00 <planetmaker> I know that file transfer errors happen.
22:37:20 <planetmaker> But if that's what happened here, it happened to me a dozen times in a row...
22:43:03 <planetmaker> anyway. That seems to work now. A thousand thanks to you, Bjarni :)
22:43:38 <Bjarni> I find it really odd that the file broke though
22:43:55 <Gonozal_VIII> so cool :-) i'm playing a multiplayer game with a friend atm, it's jan 1875
22:44:32 <Gonozal_VIII> lots of little narrow gauge trains puffing around at 16km/h
22:45:13 <Bjarni> you will run out of vehicles early though since you use all the EngineIDs early
22:45:54 <Gonozal_VIII> serbian railset... has modern trains too :-)
22:45:56 <Bjarni> I will still charge waiting time as working time
22:45:59 <planetmaker> I'll delete all files in the downloaded nightly (not the compiled) and try again...
22:46:33 <Bjarni> btw are you using Tiger or Leopard?
22:47:12 <Bjarni> we have a known issue with Leopard on intel with the nightly build server
22:47:23 <Bjarni> like... it's not working :p
22:47:37 <Bjarni> (releases works just fine... luckily)
22:49:21 *** ConstyXIV has joined #openttd
22:49:58 <ConstyXIV> does the WinCE port work on Smartphone (non-touchscreen) devices?
22:50:14 <planetmaker> ok. There were still the broken files. With the working ones from where we just compiled it works
22:50:59 <planetmaker> actually... it is 10.4.11. Just didn't remember updating.
22:54:08 <planetmaker> ok, how can I thank you, Bjarni? Must be pretty annoying this kind of bug-hunting which is none...
22:54:27 <Bjarni> now I'm wondering about this
22:54:44 <Bjarni> OpenTTD should have detected the broken file and reported it instead of crashing
22:54:57 <Bjarni> so the bug is something completely different
22:55:03 <Bjarni> did you delete the broken file?
22:55:20 <glx> ConstyXIV: don't know, we do not make them
23:03:10 *** Osai is now known as Osai^zZz
23:03:14 <planetmaker> the broken sample.cat was still in the trash bin
23:03:34 <planetmaker> it's definitely broken as quite a bit smaller...
23:04:13 *** Osai^zZz is now known as Osai^zZz`off
23:06:08 <planetmaker> yes, something like that will be the cause.
23:06:30 <planetmaker> And I didn't notice... *bangs his head*
23:08:35 <planetmaker> hm... I should slowly go to bed now...
23:08:51 <planetmaker> Bjarni, you want the "specially crafted sample.cat"?
23:10:12 *** murray__ has joined #openttd
23:10:14 <planetmaker> I understood that ottd should say that it's broken and not say bye bye w/o any trace of decency
23:10:58 <planetmaker> "bus error" is not what points to it. Is it?
23:11:36 <glx> and it should display a message
23:11:53 <Bjarni> <planetmaker> Bjarni, you want the "specially crafted sample.cat"? <-- yes. Then we have something to test the code on
23:12:02 <Bjarni> because it really should detect that it's broken
23:12:26 <planetmaker> where shall I put it? Upload it? e-mail it?
23:13:04 <Bjarni> email would be ok I guess
23:14:13 <planetmaker> uh... where do I find your e-mail?
23:16:26 *** dih is now known as anhedral
23:19:25 <planetmaker> okay, it's on its way. And now I'm off for tonight. Have a good night all!
23:29:42 <mindlesstux> gonna guess there is no server command to unlock a company without deleting it is there?
23:30:07 <mindlesstux> without using autoclean_protected
23:35:58 *** Vikthor has joined #openttd
23:53:23 <Gonozal_VIII> [00:52:47] Bartleby: Level: 3% (Sehr tiefer)
23:54:31 <Gonozal_VIII> why is low = tiefer?
23:57:05 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: smatz * r11980 /trunk/config.lib: -Fix: newer versions of cut do not accept field index 0
continue to next day ⏵
