IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-01-23
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00:01:39 *** Nukebuster has left #openttd
00:02:20 <Bjarni> at least not the last time I checked
00:02:43 <SmatZ> [01:00:10] <Bjarni> Gekz: watch and learn
00:03:23 <Gekz> if it were something like "chicken murders man" then I would lol
00:04:38 <Bjarni> SmatZ: well.... yeah I write clever stuff like that once in a while
00:06:18 <Bjarni> with people clever enough to act like that no wonder the Czech didn't want to be in the same country as the Slovaks
00:06:53 <Bjarni> there is no stupidity or (potential) death involved
00:07:27 *** Osai^zZz is now known as Osai^zZz|away
00:09:03 <Gekz> and my sister is laughing
00:10:10 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause2: but they didn't use modern ones
00:10:21 <Bjarni> in fact they replaced it with a coin
00:10:21 <ln-> Eddi|zuHause2: also since the extension cable is not waterproof, it is certainly already filled with water.
00:10:39 <Bjarni> [01:08:55] <Gekz> lolol
00:10:39 <Bjarni> [01:08:58] <Gekz> my mum is crying
00:10:45 <Bjarni> you are a mean bastard
00:10:54 <Eddi|zuHause2> again, i fail to see the "lol" part
00:11:20 <Bjarni> now I see the lol part
00:11:44 <Gonozal_VIII> misc.cpp changed a lot...
00:11:46 <Gekz> hmm, who puts a powerboard in a pool
00:12:06 <Bjarni> but it's still nowhere near Heath Ledger though
00:12:26 <Bjarni> Gekz: Eastern Europeans
00:14:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> Es meistens "lol"t was innen "hohl"t
00:15:26 <SmatZ> Bjarni: it is most likely not from Slovakia - I saw it on other servers too
00:15:32 <SmatZ> not to mention the strange house
00:16:02 <SmatZ> but I am failing to recognize it
00:16:37 <SmatZ> they look a bit British... :)
00:17:44 <Bjarni> isn't it Shuko power cords?
00:18:07 <Bjarni> then again Germany managed to export their standard to other countries
00:18:14 *** dih is now known as dih|away
00:19:12 <Eddi|zuHause2> hm... still no flash player installed...
00:19:34 <Bjarni> I pretty sure that I didn't see that
00:19:49 <Bjarni> because nobody would be that crazy
00:20:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> the picture could be german, but i don't recognise the beer either
00:22:57 <Bjarni> can people really want to die that much?
00:23:07 <Bjarni> or... get so close to dying for fun
00:23:24 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause2: he sets his parachute on fire on purpose
00:25:53 <Gonozal_VIII> it compiled again! me are bestest!
00:27:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> i are th3 bestest0r!
00:28:01 <Bjarni> Hot air balloon full of strangers crashes in my backyard! <-- interesting youtube movie title
00:28:23 <Bjarni> it's an emergency landing without any damage and not a crash though
00:28:45 <Bjarni> wind turned and took the balloon on a dangerous course :)
00:29:57 <Gonozal_VIII> stupid ai... built a train line with 90 curve but 90 curves are disabled
00:30:51 <Gekz> Gonozal_VIII: report that
00:31:12 <Gonozal_VIII> i don't think somebody will fix that ai
00:31:40 <Gonozal_VIII> i'm surprised that it actually built something and not just messed up the landscape
00:31:55 <SmatZ> Gonozal_VIII: AI doesn't work with 90deg turns - I think even the patch states that
00:32:25 <Gonozal_VIII> you mean without 90 turns?
00:32:44 <Eddi|zuHause2> AI doesn't work [...]
00:33:10 <Bjarni> it tells why I'm not heading out there to clear tracks of snow
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00:34:56 <Gonozal_VIII> fixed the track...
00:35:01 <ln-> Bjarni: there's snow only in fairytales.
00:35:17 <Bjarni> once in a while we get snow
00:35:18 <Gonozal_VIII> had to enable build in pause because it kept destroying it
00:36:37 <Gonozal_VIII> nice narrow gauge passenger line now, even profitable
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00:37:02 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: smatz * r11953 /trunk/src/road_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r11172): do not allow modifying roadbits when other roadtypes would need different foundation
00:38:42 <ln-> i've never witnessed railway plowing in finland.
00:39:07 <Bjarni> I have driven with a snowplow
00:39:35 <Bjarni> we moved it during the summer :)
00:41:20 <Bjarni> was the snowplow heavier than the car?
00:43:15 <Bjarni> at one time the guys at the town hall who were in charge of clearing roads for snow skipped a certain road on purpose because it had less priority. The people on it complained that they didn't clear it for days and they didn't care. Then some guy took his front loader and cleared the road
00:43:32 <Bjarni> how do you think the guys at the town hall reacted to that action?
00:44:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> was that a rhethorical question?
00:44:36 <Bjarni> for clearing snow without a license
00:45:23 <ln-> crime should not be tolerated.
00:45:23 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause2: actually it was a test to see if you could detect enough stupidity as there are in real life
00:45:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> you need a license to clear snow?
00:46:22 <Eddi|zuHause2> around here, everybody who owns a house is responsible for clearing the snow on half of the road adjacent to his property
00:46:42 <Bjarni> we have to do that with the sidewalks
00:47:04 <Bjarni> and we can be responsible if we don't and it causes an accident
00:47:19 <Bjarni> but we aren't allowed to remove snow from the road itself
00:47:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> only the main road gets cleared by a plough
00:49:54 <ln-> Eddi|zuHause2: btw, does that responsibility cover all snow, or snow that has fallen from the sky?
00:50:32 <Bjarni> that's actually a good question
00:50:35 <Eddi|zuHause2> hm, i believe for human-produced dirt the producer is responsible
00:50:59 <Bjarni> here when people clear the sidewalks some people throw all the snow onto the road
00:51:12 <Bjarni> then a snowplow throw all the snow up on the sidewalk
00:51:19 <ln-> because over here (finland) people are not very happy about the town plowing trucks dumping the snow on the sidewalk.
00:52:15 <ln-> still the responsiblity is trasnferred to the house owners as that happens, in practice. i guess it has not been tested on court.
00:52:20 <Bjarni> if we listen to the weather forecasts we are told that the huge amount of CO2 will make snow a thing of the past
00:53:06 <Eddi|zuHause2> the last time we had big amounts of snow was 3 years ago, i believe
00:53:11 <Bjarni> Baghdad was snow covered last week or so
00:53:27 <Bjarni> for the first time in a lifetime
00:53:37 <Bjarni> most of the locals saw snow for the first time
00:53:53 <Gonozal_VIII> we don't have any problems with sidewalks... we don't have sidewalks
00:54:14 <Bjarni> then where should you walk?
00:54:21 <Gonozal_VIII> on the road of course
00:54:41 <Bjarni> last week I saw something odd
00:55:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> we don't always have a clear distinction between road and sidewalk either
00:55:14 <Bjarni> at a location with a sidewalk, a bike trail and then the road a woman was walking on the road like it was the sidewalk
00:55:16 <ln-> Gonozal_VIII: and your cars are horse powered, like in Borat's Kazakhstan?
00:55:27 <Bjarni> she was walking in the middle of the lane blocking traffic
00:55:32 <Bjarni> and the sidewalk was empty
00:55:46 <Eddi|zuHause2> was there traffic?
00:56:08 <Bjarni> since traffic slowed down at that spot
00:56:41 <Eddi|zuHause2> i'd call the police
00:57:05 <Bjarni> and if they came she would likely be gone by then
00:57:19 <Bjarni> because I had to get to a phone first
00:57:39 <Eddi|zuHause2> you can hold her back until police comes
00:57:55 <Bjarni> then how should I contact the police?
00:58:02 <Bjarni> besides what Gonozal_VIII said
00:58:13 <Eddi|zuHause2> causing unneded blocking is a violation of traffic rules
00:58:35 <Bjarni> but it's not severe enough to allow a citizens arrest
00:58:38 <ln-> Bjarni: we have things called "cell phone" in here.
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00:59:41 <Bjarni> all of a sudden the battery didn't last a whole conversation
00:59:44 <Gonozal_VIII> you broke it! it's your fault!
00:59:54 <Gonozal_VIII> ah, that's normal^^
01:00:05 <Gonozal_VIII> they're designed to fail after some time
01:00:07 <Bjarni> and then leave if off for a few hours
01:00:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> you should have at least 2 years guarantee
01:00:18 <Bjarni> and it will have 2 minutes of talk on the battery
01:00:19 <ln-> Bjarni: i was just about to say you need to charge the phone now and then
01:00:25 <Gonozal_VIII> nope, not on the battery
01:00:41 <glx> Eddi|zuHause2: the law says 1 year, and batteries are not included
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01:01:10 <Bjarni> the broken phone is a Nokia
01:01:19 <Bjarni> and I don't like stuff that breaks on it's own
01:01:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, i'm boycotting all cell phones, but...
01:01:27 <glx> one good thing about Nokia, is they use only 1 charger type
01:01:45 <Bjarni> I have two different ones
01:01:55 <Gonozal_VIII> you can get new batteries for about 2 euro from ebay shops
01:01:57 <Bjarni> one could be considered a museumspiece though
01:02:24 <Bjarni> Gonozal_VIII: I don't trust batteries from a source like that
01:02:34 <Bjarni> batteries are dangerous if they malfunction
01:02:35 <Gonozal_VIII> does that matter for 2 euros?
01:03:19 <ln-> glx: smaller connector means smaller footprint on the circuit board, and also it is related somehow to this chinese requirement of being able to recharge through usb. (these i heard directly from someone working for nokia.)
01:03:23 <Bjarni> I read about one guy who had a phone in his breast pocket and the battery exploded and he died
01:03:35 <Gonozal_VIII> they could only do that while loading... just load it behind something^^
01:04:10 <Bjarni> they tend to explode if they are charged and they get a physically shock like if you drop it
01:04:12 <glx> Gonozal_VIII: ever heard of dell batteries explosions?
01:04:15 <Gonozal_VIII> where did you read that? i don't think that's possible
01:04:16 <ln-> Bjarni: guys and breasts don't sound a good combination.
01:05:05 <Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> where did you read that? i don't think that's possible <-- it was in the news here when it happened for the 2nd time
01:05:36 <Bjarni> I mean TV and stuff... big time news
01:05:54 <Gonozal_VIII> of course it was sony's fault
01:06:02 <ln-> Gonozal_VIII: i've read and heard about several Li-ion batteries spontaneously burning.
01:06:15 <Gonozal_VIII> stuff, that's designed to break tends to break sometimes
01:06:29 <ln-> and li-ion batteries are dangerous if not manufactured properly.
01:06:30 <Bjarni> ln-: why should we boycott Nokia anyway?
01:06:36 <Gonozal_VIII> yes burning... but not exploding
01:06:44 <ln-> Bjarni: you don't follow the news?
01:07:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: they are closing down their factory in germany, after collecting lots of government support money to establish the place
01:07:17 <glx> I have a nokia monitor in front of me
01:07:23 <Bjarni> here the news is about the government is in minority in parliament and the risk of a new election (we had one a few months ago)
01:07:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> relocating production to romania or something
01:08:03 <Gonozal_VIII> most companies do that.. can't boycot everything
01:08:09 <Bjarni> it's a leftover from Siemens Mobile, right?
01:08:36 <glx> yeah boycot Michelin too :)
01:08:39 <Eddi|zuHause2> i can't imagine that...
01:09:18 <Bjarni> they have to do something major about Siemens Mobile (now part of Nokia). They lost millions on a daily basis
01:09:28 <Bjarni> because something was seriously wrong
01:09:40 <ln-> is Nestl still on the boycott list?
01:09:47 <Gonozal_VIII> no, siemens is good
01:10:16 <Bjarni> <glx> yes their phones <-- actually I don't think the phones themselves appears to be bad... it's just crap software to sync it with a computer
01:10:23 <Bjarni> and it crashes all the time
01:10:35 <Bjarni> and if it crash then you have to reboot to be able to find the phone again
01:10:49 <glx> my brother had many problem with the screen of his siemens phone
01:11:26 <glx> we regulary need to use a screwdriver to get the image back
01:11:33 <Bjarni> I think all products has bad stuff once in a while
01:11:54 <Bjarni> I once managed to kill a HD in just a week
01:11:56 <glx> it's a conception problem for this one
01:12:26 <Bjarni> and it was even supposed to be a high standard HD
01:13:00 <Bjarni> it was the one in my (at that time) brand new PowerBook
01:13:48 <Bjarni> <ln-> is Nestlé still on the boycott list? <-- it's on mine and it will stay there until they figure out to make something that I would actually consider buying
01:14:25 <Bjarni> actually it's the only powerbook that I ever owned and now they aren't calling them that anymore so I will never get another one
01:14:25 <ln-> Bjarni: they are involved in so many products that it's hard to avoid them completely.
01:14:40 <glx> Bjarni: what do you eat then?
01:15:27 <Bjarni> well... I eat bread, pasta, meat, fish, pizza...
01:15:33 <Gonozal_VIII> i had a siemens a55, that was a great phone...
01:15:33 <Bjarni> do I really have to list all of it?
01:15:46 <ln-> Bjarni: no, only the ones by Nestl.
01:16:01 <Bjarni> "" <-- that's the list
01:16:13 <Bjarni> wow... I managed to do that quickly
01:16:19 <glx> are you sure you don't eat any ?
01:16:33 <Gonozal_VIII> nestle does a lot of stuff...
01:16:34 <glx> they have a lot of brands
01:16:45 <ln-> i doubt your list for a whole month would be that short.
01:17:11 <ln-> yeah, hint: the brand on the package isn't "Nestl" with 5-cm letters.
01:18:28 <Gonozal_VIII> hmm after eight too
01:18:41 <Gonozal_VIII> kitkat, smarties
01:18:41 <Bjarni> a fair amount of what I eat is homemade
01:18:52 <Bjarni> Gonozal_VIII: I'm not eating any of those
01:19:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> homegrown? i have thought better from your :p
01:19:30 <Bjarni> we do have stuff in the garden but that's not what I meant
01:19:54 <Bjarni> but the flour isn't from Nestlé
01:19:54 <ln-> Nesquik, Nestea, Smarties, KitKat, Lion, Cheerios, ...
01:20:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> you do realise that "homegrown" is a reference to "weed" :p
01:20:05 <Bjarni> neither are the stuff from the butcher
01:20:26 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause2: oh... right... Didn't think of that
01:20:45 <Bjarni> I'm not getting high by any funny cakes if that is what you mean :P
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01:21:12 <Bjarni> you mention a whole lot of stuff and I don't eat any of it
01:21:54 <ln-> well give us some brand names
01:22:18 <glx> volvic is a nestlé brand too IIRC
01:22:40 <Gonozal_VIII> they have chocolate water?
01:22:53 <glx> hmm no it's danone indeed
01:22:58 <Bjarni> it's not that I don't recall the brand names but it makes little sense to mention local stuff that you never heard of
01:24:29 <Bjarni> no Danish word ends on "nn"
01:24:58 <glx> ln-: next time use the a with a circle on it ;)
01:25:36 <Bjarni> it's the key thatøs on top of ø
01:26:24 <Gekz> you and your norsk keyboards
01:26:44 <ln-> man mste ofta tnka p gula sidr
01:26:54 <Bjarni> I'm sitting here writing Danish with a Norwegian keyboard
01:27:01 <Bjarni> now that sounds realistic :p
01:27:19 <Gekz> I could write english with a german keyboard xD
01:27:26 <Bjarni> Norwegian is totally different
01:27:41 <glx> Gekz: try with a russian keyboard ;)
01:27:51 <Bjarni> they write "buss"... everybody knows that it's supposed to be "bus"
01:27:54 <Gekz> glx: mmm that's good cyrillics
01:28:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> Gekz: you'd be Geky then
01:28:06 <ln-> Bjarni: i bet you haven't heard of Valiojtel, but unfortunately that too has been Nestlfied a few years ago.
01:28:12 <Gekz> Eddi|zuHause2: i'd still be Gekz.
01:28:17 <Gekz> I know where the z key is boy
01:28:25 <Gonozal_VIII> [02:27:51] Bjarni: they write "buss"... everybody knows that it's supposed to be "bus" <-- bus is bus ;-)
01:28:56 <ln-> but the most shocking thing is that norwegian has three genders!
01:29:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> i noticed that SuSE has zast symliked to yast ;)
01:29:20 <Bjarni> here is a good one. Uncle Scrooge is called "onkel skrue" (uncle screw)
01:29:23 <Gonozal_VIII> so? german has 3 genders too
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01:29:38 <Gekz> two balls, no balls and one bals.
01:29:38 <ln-> Gonozal_VIII: yes, but swedish doesn't, danish doesn't.
01:30:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> what is an "uncle scrooge"?
01:30:10 <Gonozal_VIII> male, female, neutral... for objects...
01:30:21 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause2: Donald Duck's rich ungle
01:30:27 <Gekz> Gonozal_VIII: masculine, feminine, and neuter
01:30:33 <Bjarni> he is named Scrooge McDuck in English
01:30:57 <Eddi|zuHause2> the uncle of Donald is called Dagobert
01:31:16 <Gonozal_VIII> it wants me to die :-(
01:31:31 <Gekz> you don't know any german do you
01:31:41 <Gekz> Die is the feminine "the"
01:31:42 <Bjarni> Scrooge McDuck is named after Ebenizer Scrooge from Dickens' "A Christmas Carroll"
01:31:44 <glx> how are called riri, fifi and loulou ?
01:31:53 <Bjarni> (I hope I wrote the name rigth)
01:32:32 <Bjarni> glx: Huey, Duey and Louis?
01:32:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> glx: i can only assume you mean Tick Trick and Track
01:33:37 <Gonozal_VIII> gekz, you're good at german?
01:34:14 <Gekz> by the end of this year, hopefully :)
01:34:21 <glx> Bjarni: oh right, now I remember I saw their names in "The Lucky Dime Caper starring Donald Duck" (on sega master system)
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01:36:51 <Eddi|zuHause3> Gekz: anyway, whenever i am at an english keyboard, i constantly mix up y and z
01:37:16 <Bjarni> Huey, Dewey and Louie <-- that's how it's spelled (according to Disney)
01:37:36 <glx> I think it's weird when you are used to an azerty keyboard
01:38:06 <Eddi|zuHause3> how do you think i noticed that "zast" thing? :p
01:38:48 <ln-> azerty.. is q where a is supposed to be then?
01:39:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> glx: i don't think so ;)
01:40:40 <ln-> mine is qwertyuiopasdfghjkl'<zxcvbnm,.-
01:41:00 <Eddi|zuHause3> ; is on shift+, here
01:41:21 <glx> azertyuiop^$qsdfghjklmù*wxcvbn,;:!
01:41:38 <glx> hmm missed the < before w
01:42:11 <glx> and the worst change: &é"'(-è_çà)=
01:42:16 <Eddi|zuHause3> qwertzuiopü+ asdfghjklöä# <yxcvbnm,.-
01:42:57 <Eddi|zuHause3> QWERTZUIOPÜ* ASDFGHJKLÖÄ' >YXCVBNM;:_
01:43:29 <ln-> QWERTYUIOP^ ASDFGHJKL* >ZXCVBNM;:_
01:43:31 <glx> AZERTYUIOP¨£ QSDFGHJKLM%µ >WXCVBN?./§
01:44:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> that's on AltGr+M here
01:44:22 <glx> dunno why it is in the layout
01:44:52 <ln-> glx: and $ and without and with a mere shift only?
01:45:15 <Eddi|zuHause3> $ is shift+4 here
01:45:36 <Eddi|zuHause3> £ is not on the layout originally
01:45:48 <glx> ln-: I don't get the second char
01:45:55 <Gonozal_VIII> i have and $ keys above my left and right cursor keys
01:45:55 <Eddi|zuHause3> but here it is mapped to AltGr+Shift+3
01:46:17 <Eddi|zuHause3> Gonozal_VIII: you don't have UTF-8
01:46:38 <Eddi|zuHause3> no, the other one
01:47:02 <Gonozal_VIII> can't copy the other one because nobody wrote it^^
01:49:17 <Gonozal_VIII> there are two shifts^^
01:49:34 <Gonozal_VIII> try both + 4 ;-)
01:49:36 <ln-> glx: who decided that the french need to have quick access to american money without pressing even shift?
01:49:41 <Tefad> Gonozal_VIII: no difference
01:49:59 <Eddi|zuHause3> on some keyboard layout, caps enables a different set of shift results ;)
01:50:06 <Tefad> programming on european keyboards must be annoying
01:50:29 <Gonozal_VIII> yes eddi, that's called lowercase
01:50:32 <Tefad> caps+shift here doesn't do anything
01:50:53 <Eddi|zuHause3> Gonozal_VIII: no, i mean something different
01:50:55 <Tefad> in some broken systems, you'll get numbers instead of symbols though
01:51:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> caps does not make the default uppercase
01:51:23 <Eddi|zuHause3> but changes the way some keys are handled
01:51:25 <Tefad> urmom doesn't make the default uppwercase.
01:51:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> e.g. the swiss keyboard layout
01:52:05 <Eddi|zuHause3> which swiches between french and german special letters
01:53:37 <Gonozal_VIII> alt shift switches between keyboard layouts...
01:54:02 <Gonozal_VIII> but only if you have multiple of them active what i don't
01:55:35 <Gonozal_VIII> i had that in a game where alt shift was used for something and wasd for running... i had something often used mapped to y and half of the time it didn't work...
01:57:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> Gonozal_VIII: no, it's not different keyboard layouts
01:57:19 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's one keyboard layout
01:58:51 <Gonozal_VIII> O_o it's 3 already
01:59:03 <Gonozal_VIII> i should probably sleep... have to get up in 4h
02:00:16 <Gonozal_VIII> i'm so tired, i even posted in the coding style topic...
02:01:25 <Gonozal_VIII> yay for delete button
02:02:07 <Gonozal_VIII> always no time...
02:02:14 <Gonozal_VIII> oh noes, i'm so poor
02:03:55 <Eddi|zuHause3> i rather play civ4
02:04:40 <Gonozal_VIII> ever played on a donut shaped world with water in the middle?
02:05:45 <Gonozal_VIII> not donut shaped as in ns and ew connected...
02:05:57 <Gekz> Eddi|zuHause3: you can't attack a city with a ship on civ4
02:06:06 <Gekz> that's the worst part about the civ series, the navy is nerfed
02:06:19 <Gonozal_VIII> you can shoot down the defenses
02:06:35 <Eddi|zuHause3> you can cause collateral damage i believe
02:06:42 <Gekz> you can't kill units >_>
02:06:49 <Gekz> it only injures them down to 1/10
02:06:55 <Eddi|zuHause3> and you can block traderoutes
02:07:02 <Gekz> I like to kill their entire city with my ships, then send in a warrior on freeciv
02:07:04 <Gonozal_VIII> if you can't kill them then, you suck^^
02:07:23 <Gekz> Gonozal_VIII: idiot, you can only bombard, not attack
02:07:24 <Eddi|zuHause3> so? you'll have to bring along more troops
02:07:32 <Gekz> I played civ for too long :)
02:07:42 <Gekz> why should I have to bring troops along when I have 100 battleships
02:07:49 <Gonozal_VIII> always mixed troops not just some ships
02:07:50 <Gekz> logic would say they could blow everything up :)
02:08:09 <Gonozal_VIII> blow everything up... but not hold a city
02:08:13 <Gekz> I love it when people on freeciv build their entire nation on the coast
02:08:16 <Eddi|zuHause3> logic would say the troops figure out how to hide from the ships
02:08:41 <Eddi|zuHause3> you are just twisted and abuse a misfeature
02:08:46 <Gekz> Eddi|zuHause3: when missiles are flying at building everywhere, where do you hide? ;)
02:08:49 <Eddi|zuHause3> and then cry because they fixed it
02:09:14 <Gekz> it's a Sid Meiers Civ "feature"
02:09:18 <Eddi|zuHause3> it was totally unbalanced
02:09:20 <Gekz> I don't liek the ruleset, so I don't play the game
02:09:30 <Gekz> I play freeciv, because it rocks :)
02:10:38 <Eddi|zuHause3> in civ 2, ships were heavily overpowered against troops, and could attack a half a dozen times
02:10:40 <Gonozal_VIII> but the stupid ais in civ4 always nuke the earth...
02:11:00 <Gonozal_VIII> barbarians win blah...
02:11:14 <Gekz> I like pirates on freeciv, they make me laugh
02:11:17 <Gekz> they're harder than half the ais
02:11:30 <Gekz> they cap your base and you can't get it back easily :)
02:12:10 <Eddi|zuHause3> but i didn't quite figure aircraft out in civ 4 yet
02:12:25 <Gekz> aircraft in civ4 suck so badly.
02:13:16 <Gonozal_VIII> i played on a huge highlands map with one city challenge... then one of the enemys moved in a stack with about 300 cavalry, 200 artilry, 200 rifleman and lots of other units...
02:13:41 <Gonozal_VIII> i had a couple of mgs and they fought it off!
02:14:05 <Gonozal_VIII> of course i had defenses
02:14:06 <Gekz> and they weren't veterans :D
02:14:25 <Gonozal_VIII> lots of first strikes
02:15:05 <Gekz> I like on freeciv how I could fortify 2 legions on a mountain looking down on the desert, then my friend sends a stack of 20 musketmen and they all die in one attack, stack death
02:15:10 <Gekz> because height defensive xD
02:15:36 <Gonozal_VIII> no stack death... they all attacked on their own
02:15:52 <Gonozal_VIII> i had to turn attack animation off or it would have lasted for hours
02:16:16 <lolman> Didnt they stack die unless they had fortified themselves?
02:16:39 <Gonozal_VIII> what is stack die?
02:16:55 <lolman> Gonozal_VIII, when a stack of units are attacked and defeated they all die
02:17:06 <lolman> Unless they're on a fortified square
02:17:15 <Gekz> fortified as in fortifications
02:17:27 <lolman> Gonozal_VIII, Civ4 changed everything
02:17:53 <Gekz> religions were a blowout.
02:17:59 <Gonozal_VIII> companies are huge...
02:18:23 <lolman> Civ1 FTW, except the warrior beating tank thing
02:18:26 <Gonozal_VIII> the enemy could never have afforded that stack without his company that he spread everywhere
02:18:44 <Gonozal_VIII> so i went out and blew up his company hq city
02:18:54 <Gekz> lolman: play freeciv with civ1 rules then?
02:19:05 <lolman> Gekz, don't have freeciv yet ;)
02:19:08 <Gonozal_VIII> some turns after that he lost his whole army, couldn't afford it anymore^^
02:19:11 <Gekz> lolman: get it? it's free
02:19:19 <lolman> Gekz, it's downloading now
02:20:06 <Gekz> I have to update my aur package for freeciv
02:20:16 <Gekz> a simple number change and it works the same
02:20:25 <lolman> I may as well grab the SVN one :P
02:20:46 <Gekz> they're changing a lot for 2.2
02:21:03 <lolman> Grabbing the gtk one off AUR now
02:21:10 <lolman> I'd got whatever was in the normal repos
02:21:28 <Gekz> lolman: edit the PKGBUILD
02:21:34 <Gekz> change the pkgver from 2.1.1 to 2.1.2
02:21:39 <Gekz> and it will download the correct sources
02:21:53 <Gonozal_VIII> don't try to stop me again!
02:22:07 <Gekz> but 2.1.1 and 2.1.2 are only different if you dont speak english
02:22:17 <Gekz> you can use any 2.1.x client with any 2.1.x server
02:22:45 * Gekz proceeds to update his pkgbuild
02:22:51 <Gekz> I don't even use Arch on this PC any more >_>
02:23:37 <lolman> Especially when configured properly
02:23:45 <Gekz> I needed a stable system to play nwn on
02:23:50 <Gekz> Arch and NWN do not play nice.
02:23:57 <Gekz> so I have Debian and Arch installed.
02:24:09 * lolman gets frustrated at one of the deps
02:24:56 <lolman> Looks for libggz version 0.0.14 (which I have)...fails to find it and dies :o
02:25:11 <Gekz> can you specify where it is
02:25:26 <lolman> Aha, worked out the issue
02:25:34 <lolman> Missing dep in the PKGBUILD for it
02:25:55 <Gekz> aur can be a pain in the ass
02:26:25 <lolman> Nothing else comes close :P
02:27:00 <Gekz> when you get the freeciv 2.1.2 source
02:27:04 <Gekz> give me the md5sum please >_>
02:27:59 <lolman> I'll just wget it, hang on :P
02:28:33 <Gekz> I have the elite slow australian internet
02:29:51 <lolman> 8574ad8cf28663d6aeec8b5e74d01f33 freeciv-2.1.2.tar.gz
02:29:56 <Gonozal_VIII> no torrent for that stuff?
02:30:16 <lolman> Gonozal_VIII, who needs torrents when you have belnet?
02:30:58 <lolman> Gekz, I'm grabbing the bz2 as well if that helps at all
02:31:22 <lolman> 358d140f545c4ac9e05c4e2b13de7a55 freeciv-2.1.2.tar.bz2
02:32:24 <lolman> Gekz, having a 20Mb line rocks :P
02:32:28 <Gekz> I click new game and the server crashes
02:33:15 <Gekz> lolman: do not mix svn nations with stable version nations
02:33:22 <Gekz> it bitches about no barbarian nation
02:35:38 <Gekz> I then bought a 500GB HDD.
02:35:54 <lolman> I changed repos...and forgot to change i686 to x86_64 >_<
02:35:59 <Gekz> pacman -Rss or whatever the cache clearer is xD
02:36:46 <lolman> Time to get reinstalling stuff before it's too late :P
02:37:21 <lolman> I was wondering why freeciv didn't work ~_~
02:41:02 <Gekz> I've made a mess with the nationsets
02:42:25 <lolman> There, damage sould be dealt with now
02:43:28 <Gekz> I worked out why it didnt work
02:43:34 <Gekz> they have now implemented two kinds of barbarian
02:43:40 <Gekz> land barbarians and sea barbarians xD
02:43:52 <Gekz> so a new variable breaks it
02:43:57 <Gekz> man, 2.2 is going to rock
02:49:07 <Eddi|zuHause3> the worst part about freeciv is the interface
02:49:23 <Eddi|zuHause3> it looks so... unprofessional
02:50:15 <Gekz> theres 3 different interfaces
02:50:19 <Gekz> and 2 more unofficial ones
02:52:03 <ln-> i really think it would make OTTD more interesting if half of the country could suddenly become inaccessible. or, the country could suddenly extend to double size.
02:54:04 <Gekz> we're hosting a game if you want to play
02:54:17 <lolman> Gekz, hmm, I suck, and I'm tired :P
02:54:34 <Gekz> We suck, and I just woke up
02:54:52 <Gekz> good, you can hide as wellas you can
02:55:24 <lolman> Point me at the server then :P
03:09:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> err... can anyone explain to me why i have this local change?
03:09:03 <Eddi|zuHause3> -static void PlaceInitialIndustry(IndustryType type, int amount)
03:09:03 <Eddi|zuHause3> +static void PlaceInitialIndustry(IndustryType type, uint amount)
03:09:22 <Eddi|zuHause3> [src/industry_cmd.cpp]
03:09:41 <Belugas> a negative amount is not possible?
03:10:15 <Eddi|zuHause3> i can only imagine it's leftover from an old newindustries diff
03:11:04 <glx> and a mistake made while fixing a conflict
03:14:36 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's the only local change i cannot match to a patch...
03:15:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> newindustries.diff:+static void PlaceInitialIndustry(IndustryType type, uint amount)
03:15:37 <glx> or maybe it didn't conflict when merged
03:16:05 <Eddi|zuHause3> i guess that line was never changed in the final version
03:21:29 <ln-> if a klingon eats, is it essen or fressen?
03:21:52 <Eddi|zuHause3> err... i never payed attention to that :p
03:25:24 <ln-> i'm making a wild guess that a dictionary doesn't specify whether essen is used for all humanoid life forms.
03:29:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> "Gagh heißt [...] der Würmerfraß, den die Klingonen in Star Trek fressen."
03:30:05 <Eddi|zuHause3> anyway... "klingonen fressen" ~> 500 results, "klingonen essen" ~> 40000 results
03:31:05 <ln-> it would make an excellent Wikipedia "article" -- "List of Star Trek species that eat with fressen"
03:34:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> anyway, "fressen" is usually associated with animals, and "Fraß" is associated with really bad food
03:40:14 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: richk * r11954 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/water_cmd.cpp: [NewGRF_ports] -Fix: Seaplane airports need protecting from flooding by adjacent tiles.
03:40:38 <Eddi|zuHause3> what are my eyes witnessing here?
03:41:01 <glx> broken eyes, change eyes ;)
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06:49:16 <SquireJames> this is more of a OTTD subject, so, i'll post her here
06:49:29 <SquireJames> i've done some NFO before but, typically, i've sort of forgotten how
06:50:01 <SquireJames> essentially, I just want to tweak UKRS so that certain trains and the early carriages and waggons are purchasable in 1900
06:51:33 <Gonozal_VIII> 00 00 in the date available thing is 1920... earlier dates are in that long format date thingy (not that i am a pro with grfs or something^^)
06:51:57 <SquireJames> which collumn is the date in?
06:52:31 <SquireJames> I did have an example NFO that showed each collumn with an arrow indicating what action was what
06:52:36 <SquireJames> Do you have that handy?
06:53:02 <Gonozal_VIII> grf2html is great for looking what does what in a grf
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06:54:35 <SquireJames> well, okay, id rather learn it "native"
06:55:02 <SquireJames> basically, from what I understand notepad converts certain things into characters rather than native hex
06:55:03 <Gonozal_VIII> with descriptions
06:55:17 <SquireJames> and theres some setting or some program somewhere that opens it without this conversion
06:55:37 <Gonozal_VIII> the hex in the grf are characters
06:55:44 <SquireJames> 423 * 14 02 00 FA 81 0C 00 FF 01 "##" 00
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06:56:08 <SquireJames> I have forgotten how to turn it off
06:56:17 <SquireJames> the last time I did NFO was, oooh. 2003/04
06:56:25 <Gonozal_VIII> you can write strings between " " and they get converted to hex by the grfcodec
06:56:38 <Gonozal_VIII> author wrote it that way ;-)
06:56:42 <SquireJames> made a Bulleid Leader Class, worked nicely but since then, eek
06:56:53 <SquireJames> ah, yes, that, how do i do that exactly?
06:57:25 <DaleStan> <Gonozal_VIII> action 2A <-- action 2A is not defined.
06:57:30 <SquireJames> you'll have to go more basic ith me i am afraid
06:57:44 <SquireJames> i have made a batch to convert grfs for me
06:57:55 <DaleStan> That would be a property, not an action. There's enough troubles when we do keep to the correct names.
06:58:05 <Gonozal_VIII> action 00, property 2A
06:58:09 <SquireJames> grfcodec -d pb_ukrs.grf
06:58:18 <SquireJames> so where do I define the string to be converted to hex?
06:58:42 <Gonozal_VIII> i have a .bat for that too :-)
06:58:54 <SquireJames> its a batch file that runs grfcodec, and decodes pb_ukrs.grf
06:58:58 <Gonozal_VIII> you don't, it's automagically
06:59:03 <SquireJames> :) then we are in the same wavelength
06:59:09 <DaleStan> Or renum -? (and its readmes), if you want more control over what gets hexified and what gets stringified.
06:59:50 <SquireJames> okees, so, how do I make it keep names (0-4-0T Saddle Tank for example) and convert those were y##y things to hex
07:00:05 <DaleStan> grfcodec can't do that. NFORenum can, though.
07:00:20 <SquireJames> sorry if i sound thick, I just forget things easily
07:00:39 <SquireJames> im used to working with more advanced (i.e easier to work with) coding, like in ST Armada
07:00:59 <SquireJames> once i have it thought, i'll write it down!
07:01:33 <SquireJames> (indeed i am in the final stages of releasing my A2 Total Conversion as we speak, but I digress)
07:01:53 <Gonozal_VIII> hehe, did that too
07:01:55 <SquireJames> So, to get Verrrrrrrrry basic, I have extracted the UKRS nfo
07:02:12 <DaleStan> I seriously doubt that ST:A is more advanced that than NFO. The only thing NFO is missing for Turing completeness is infinite memory.
07:02:25 <SquireJames> well, not advanced in that sense
07:02:37 <SquireJames> whats the term, higher level
07:02:47 <SquireJames> its a simpler language for us, more complex for the computer
07:03:09 <SquireJames> NFO is lower level, closer to assembler, than the bastardised C++ that Armada uses
07:04:20 <SquireJames> So, i've extracted the NFO, and i have found my first victim, the 0-4-0 Saddle Tank
07:04:48 <SquireJames> the name is a little weird, its called "60-4-0 Saddle Tank (Steam)" so, not sure where the 6 comes from as it doesn't show it but anyways
07:05:10 <Gonozal_VIII> leave the 6 there when you rename it
07:05:37 <SquireJames> Well, i'm not renaming her, and i discovered that when I edited the name of the 2-6-4T Tank
07:05:41 <Gonozal_VIII> it depends to something else, shouldn't have been stringified... many strings have that for some reason
07:06:03 <SquireJames> so, from that name there, which collumn and line refers to action 00 property 2A
07:06:13 <SquireJames> (or whatever it is that does intro date)
07:06:21 <Gonozal_VIII> obviously the action 00 :-)
07:06:34 <Gonozal_VIII> that's usually a very long line
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07:06:47 <SquireJames> Heres line 1, as it were
07:06:48 <SquireJames> 426 * 31 04 00 1F 01 "60-4-0 Saddle Tank (Steam)" 00
07:07:31 <Gonozal_VIII> 04 is more like 04
07:08:16 <Gonozal_VIII> 0 <-- line, length, action type
07:08:39 <SquireJames> okay so thats Action 00 property 4?
07:09:33 <SquireJames> i've read that page, but i can't make much sense of it
07:09:56 <SquireJames> I dont understand where the actions are in relation to actual code (where they begin and end in that line i posted)
07:10:00 <DaleStan> The first byte is essentially always the action number.
07:10:20 <Gonozal_VIII> something is weird with the formatting of the line you pasted, when i try to copy that it messes up
07:10:43 <SquireJames> well, thts what i mean, I can't remember how to unfudge it
07:11:05 <Gonozal_VIII> it begins with the action number and ends with newline...
07:11:25 <DaleStan> Occasionally you'll run into something that looks like an action 0, but parses poorly and is 257 bytes long; those are not action 0s. Occasionally you'll run into things that look like actions FE and FF; those are not, strictly speaking, actions.
07:12:18 <SquireJames> what do i need to alter my batch to say to extract it so it makes more sense
07:12:49 <Gonozal_VIII> makes more sense?
07:12:58 <SquireJames> well you said the line is screwy
07:13:18 <SquireJames> and as we identified, it sometimes extracts things as y##y or other such gibberish
07:13:20 <Gonozal_VIII> no, only the formatting somehow
07:13:26 <DaleStan> It copies fine here; I'd guess the Gonozal_VIII's client doesn't like tabs.
07:13:51 <Gonozal_VIII> <Sprite-number> * <Length> 04 <feature> <language-id> <num-ent> <offset> <text>
07:13:58 <Gonozal_VIII> and that's how you read it
07:14:12 <DaleStan> SquireJames: You need to run NFORenum too. With the proper argument(s) to -b. The definition of "proper" depends on your personal preferences.
07:14:35 <SquireJames> running NFORenum will make it easier to understand, as rookie?
07:14:59 <LA[lord]> DaleStan: What does -b do?.. hmm.. I probably should go and check it out myself :P^^
07:15:23 <Gonozal_VIII> all i did with renum so far is drag nfos onto it without any params^^
07:16:06 <LA[lord]> I think I have missed some interesting features then..
07:16:32 <SquireJames> So DaleStan, after i've run GRFCodec and decoded it (like I have now)
07:16:43 <SquireJames> I run the nfo through NFORenum, with a batch also?
07:17:10 <DaleStan> Or you could do it manually, but yes.
07:17:38 <SquireJames> okay, (again sorry for seeming stupid) so, what ideally should the batch say/
07:18:42 <DaleStan> renum -b <something> [-b <something else> [...]] grfnamewithoutextension
07:19:17 <DaleStan> <something> and <something else> are subject to personal preference.
07:19:49 <Gonozal_VIII> i didn't get that^^
07:20:09 <SquireJames> renum -b <rob1> [-b <rob2> [...]] pb_ukrs
07:21:14 <LA[lord]> renum -b arandomfile.nfo somethingnew.nfo
07:21:35 <LA[lord]> and the end is somthig I don't use
07:21:41 <SquireJames> where randomfile is my existing nfo
07:21:51 <LA[lord]> and new file is the file it writes
07:22:10 <DaleStan> And again no; -b requires a different sort of argument; square braces indicate something optional.
07:22:15 <Gonozal_VIII> ah... i just let it overwrite :-)
07:22:23 <LA[lord]> if you don't provide newfile, it'll overwrite the randomfile.nfo but creates randomfile.nfo.bak too
07:22:55 <DaleStan> For me, I'd probably use renum -b setcookie=686031254 PlaneSet
07:23:30 <Gonozal_VIII> cookie in a grf?
07:24:29 <DaleStan> READ THE DOCUMENTATION!!!
07:24:39 <SquireJames> missing or invalid argument to beautify command?
07:25:27 <DaleStan> Then you typed something wrong. Or you failed to read the documentation.
07:25:54 <SquireJames> renum -b pb_ukrs pb_ukrsRob
07:26:05 <SquireJames> even when i add .nfo to the ends, still says the same
07:26:10 <DaleStan> I spent quite a bit of time documenting how @@BEAUTIFY works, and quite a bit more documenting the link between -b and @@BEAUTIFY.
07:27:04 <LA[lord]> so documentation is a good place to start ^^
07:27:25 <SquireJames> okay, bugger the bats, I just dragged and dropped
07:27:35 <DaleStan> It's all there. Some is hiding in the doc folder, and other parts are hiding behind the magical -?
07:28:04 <SquireJames> and, well, it created a new folder in my user directory called .renum
07:28:12 <SquireJames> with a lot of pretty dats in it
07:28:38 <LA[lord]> hmm.. DaleStan, I just compiled nforenum in linux and it works... Therefore I can now make grfs in linux too :)
07:29:38 <DaleStan> The documentation does, I believe, cover the the .renum folder too.
07:29:55 <SquireJames> however, i've just ran my comparision program on the pb_ukrs.nfo, and the bak it made
07:30:11 <SquireJames> and apart from lines saying //!!Warning (170): Default result cannot be reached. its the same
07:30:38 <DaleStan> That would be because you failed to engage the beautifier. How to do so is covered ... *gasp* in the documentation.
07:31:08 <SquireJames> which is *gasp* where
07:31:21 <DaleStan> <DaleStan> Some is hiding in the doc folder, and other parts are hiding behind the magical -?
07:33:16 <SquireJames> renum -b pb_ukrs.nfo ukrsRob.nfo
07:33:48 <LA[lord]> the ones DaleStan pointed out in []
07:34:09 <SquireJames> <DaleStan> For me, I'd probably use renum -b setcookie=686031254 PlaneSet
07:34:35 <SquireJames> I just changed the name of his files from setcookie thingy to pb_ukrs and PlaneSet to ukrsRob
07:34:39 <Gonozal_VIII> cookies taste good :-)
07:34:58 <SquireJames> so, if thats what DaleStan uses, should work?
07:35:27 <SquireJames> and yet, not, since it complains that the beautify command isn't working again
07:36:00 <LA[lord]> SquireJames: I for one am not sure of this.. But to be sure, I would read /docs/COMMANDS.en.txt
07:36:10 <Gonozal_VIII> i guess it's renum -b optional stuff ukrsRob
07:36:19 <Gonozal_VIII> but i shouldn't guess
07:36:38 <SquireJames> renum -b+ pb_ukrs.nfo ukrsRob.nfo
07:36:52 <DaleStan> But "setcookie thingy" isn't a file.
07:36:59 <SquireJames> (hazarding a guess since the docs say that -b+ turns on the beautifier)
07:37:05 <SquireJames> This allows, for example, -l- to turn the linter off,
07:37:05 <SquireJames> or -b+ to turn the beautifier on.
07:37:47 <SquireJames> that seems to have worked
07:37:51 <DaleStan> + is indeed one of the myrads of things acceptable as an argument to -b.
07:38:40 <SquireJames> good, okay so the NFO has changed
07:38:54 <SquireJames> it now reads as that first line (first line applicable to the Saddle Tank)
07:38:55 <SquireJames> 426 * 31 04 00 1F 01 36 "0-4-0 Saddle Tank (Steam)" 00
07:39:07 <SquireJames> the square thingy is a tab id wager
07:40:16 <Gonozal_VIII> so the 6 is outside the "" now
07:40:21 <SquireJames> sooo, now we have codey that makes sense
07:40:47 <SquireJames> (and the y##y has become A1 FF 23 23 FF which is gorgeous, wonderful hex
07:41:06 <SquireJames> so, which little chunk is the action that controls introduction date
07:41:24 <SquireJames> i'd hazard a guess at 1F 01 36 but id probably be very wrong
07:41:54 <Gonozal_VIII> nothing from there as that's an action 4
07:42:05 <SquireJames> next line perhaps?
07:42:06 <Rubidium> SquireJames: you're better off by starting to read the whole NewGRF spec to understand what the different actions do
07:42:20 <Gonozal_VIII> could be anywhere in the file
07:42:21 <SquireJames> i've tried Rubidium, i can't make sense of it
07:42:31 <SquireJames> i did have a file that had commented headers telling me which was what
07:42:51 <Gonozal_VIII> use grf2html, then you'll find the right line much easier
07:43:03 <Rubidium> for example, action 4s can be defined almost anywhere in the file and do not need to be right in front (or behind) the code that handles the vehicle/industry/whatever related to the introduced string
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07:43:41 <SquireJames> it says, and i quote in the wiki
07:43:48 <SquireJames> 03 B vehicle life in years
07:43:54 <SquireJames> so, where is 03 B?
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07:44:07 <Gonozal_VIII> in the html you can search for something related to that engine... like the engineid or the hp or anything and you'll know which line it is
07:44:25 <DaleStan> *facepalm* What is the header for the column with the "B"?
07:44:30 <Gonozal_VIII> that's how long a vehicle lasts before it needs replacement
07:45:12 <Rubidium> and what does the rest of the page tell you about the meaning of "vehicle life"?
07:45:13 <LA[lord]> hmm.. IIRC he said about action04.. not action0
07:45:18 <SquireJames> ah, indeed Gonozal indeed
07:45:30 <SquireJames> okees, so, vehicle introduction
07:45:41 <SquireJames> 00 W date of introduction
07:45:52 <SquireJames> hmm, where is that i wonder
07:46:03 <DaleStan> Also in the action 0.
07:46:12 <Gonozal_VIII> i told you, use grf2html and search for the right line there :P
07:46:15 <SquireJames> and where is the action 0 in that line
07:46:43 <Gonozal_VIII> it's a different line anywhere in the grf
07:47:14 <LA[lord]> SquireJames: Every action is different sprite
07:47:51 <Gonozal_VIII> grf2html parses the action 0 to a table with data in it, much easier to find it that way
07:48:02 <SquireJames> So, with that in mind, how do I, or infact how does the game know which action belongs to which vehicle if this curious Action 00 can be on any line anywhere else in the nfo?
07:48:12 <SquireJames> there has to be some rhyme or reason to it
07:48:40 <LA[lord]> look at action0 specs.. <Sprite-number> * <Length> 00 <Feature> <Num-props> <Num-info> <Id> (<Property <New-info>)...
07:49:06 <LA[lord]> Sprite-numberAction 0 can appear anywhere in the GRF file, so set it to the sprite number you are currently at.
07:49:35 <LA[lord]> I could copy-paste everything from there, but I guess it's easier if you looked up it yourself
07:49:38 <SquireJames> so in the line 426 * 31 04 00 1F 01 36 "0-4-0 Saddle Tank (Steam)" 00
07:49:49 <SquireJames> sprite number is 426?
07:49:52 <Gonozal_VIII> that only defines the string
07:49:53 <LA[lord]> 426 is sprite number
07:49:55 <SquireJames> length is 31, and so forth
07:50:02 <SquireJames> good, getting somewhere, okee
07:50:27 <LA[lord]> lenght is how many bytes are after the lenght thing in that sprite
07:50:37 <SquireJames> so, i need to find another line with 426 as the sprite number, to find the action 00?
07:50:47 <SquireJames> since sprite number is how it references isnt it?
07:50:52 <Gonozal_VIII> there's only one line with same sprite number
07:50:59 <SquireJames> oh sorry vehicle id
07:51:14 <LA[lord]> you are looking at wrong action
07:51:22 <LA[lord]> action04 defines new names
07:51:26 <Gonozal_VIII> there's no vehicle id in that line
07:51:45 <SquireJames> well i gathered that, but that was the only way to find where to start looking
07:51:48 <Gonozal_VIII> that line doesn't help you in any way to find the right action 0
07:51:51 <SquireJames> from that line down, it looks like this
07:51:52 <SquireJames> 426 * 31 04 00 1F 01 36 "0-4-0 Saddle Tank (Steam)" 00
07:51:52 <SquireJames> 427 * 22 00 00 08 01 36 12 FD 00 00 00 02 10 03 1C 04 28 05 00 06 03 1A 00
07:51:52 <SquireJames> 428 * 22 00 00 07 01 36 08 00 0D 2F 0E 30 4C 00 00 17 07 19 00 14 00 21 03
07:51:52 <SquireJames> 429 * 15 00 00 04 01 36 09 38 00 16 19 0B 5E 01 1F 53
07:51:52 <SquireJames> 430 * 4 01 00 07 08
07:52:22 <SquireJames> after that it just references the pcx so that must be the part that says what the 0-4-0 Saddle Tank looks like
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07:52:53 <SquireJames> ah, indicated by the leading 00 right?
07:53:02 <SquireJames> 04 00 1f etc = action 04
07:53:09 <DaleStan> <DaleStan> The first byte is essentially always the action number.
07:53:12 <SquireJames> 00 00 08 is an action 00, and so forth
07:53:19 <SquireJames> ah, okay, now im getting somewhere
07:53:44 <SquireJames> so the first byte, as DaleStan says is the action number
07:53:51 <Gonozal_VIII> and why exactly do you keep ignoring me telling you to use grf2html?
07:53:55 <SquireJames> now, what is the second byte
07:54:01 <Gonozal_VIII> depends on action
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07:54:05 <SquireJames> (im not ignoring you, i am reading the documentation for it)
07:54:11 <SquireJames> (having trouble getting her to work)
07:54:22 <LA[lord]> ok.. I'm getting like DaleStan.. read specs
07:54:24 <Gonozal_VIII> no need for documentation, drag the .grf onto it
07:54:27 <DaleStan> Whatever the documentation for that action says it is.
07:54:50 <SquireJames> o've tried tht Gonozal, it blinks up real quick then produces nothing
07:55:04 <Gonozal_VIII> no dir with html inside?
07:55:40 <SquireJames> nope, i drag the pb_urks.nfo over the program, it blinks up a dos window, then does nothing
07:55:56 <Gonozal_VIII> drag the .grf onto it <-- did i write .nfo?
07:56:00 <SquireJames> anyways, so, action 00 word length is the year of introduction
07:56:39 <SquireJames> so , action 00 property 00 is year of introduction
07:56:56 <SquireJames> right, so, the second byte is the property?
07:57:07 <SquireJames> so, 00 00 is action00 property 00?
07:57:53 <LA[lord]> says feature 00 not prop
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07:58:50 <SquireJames> 00 00 is action00 feature 00 (trains)
07:59:06 <Gonozal_VIII> drag pb_urks.grf onto grf2html.exe and look at the result :P
07:59:34 <SquireJames> i'll try that after Gonozal, im getting somehere now
07:59:39 <SquireJames> soo, with that in mind
07:59:55 <Gonozal_VIII> everything you ask is described there!
08:00:07 <LA[lord]> Gonozal_VIII is right..
08:00:17 <SquireJames> 08 is properties to change
08:00:40 <LA[lord]> <Num-props> B How many properties you would like to change per vehicle or station
08:00:55 <LA[lord]> so how many props, not the property
08:01:18 <SquireJames> prsumably thats 08 because we are changing long format date (word length)?
08:01:35 <LA[lord]> <Num-info> B How many vehicles/stations you would like to change
08:02:55 <LA[lord]> so it should be 01 I guess..
08:03:33 <SquireJames> well, as i've posted, the lines i have are
08:03:42 <SquireJames> 426 * 31 04 00 1F 01 36 "0-4-0 Saddle Tank (Steam)" 00
08:03:42 <SquireJames> 427 * 22 00 00 08 01 36 12 FD 00 00 00 02 10 03 1C 04 28 05 00 06 03 1A 00
08:03:42 <SquireJames> 428 * 22 00 00 07 01 36 08 00 0D 2F 0E 30 4C 00 00 17 07 19 00 14 00 21 03
08:03:42 <SquireJames> 429 * 15 00 00 04 01 36 09 38 00 16 19 0B 5E 01 1F 53
08:03:42 <SquireJames> 430 * 4 01 00 07 08
08:03:57 <Gonozal_VIII> you have lots of more lines
08:04:06 <SquireJames> so the first Action00 changes 08 properties
08:04:13 <SquireJames> the second, 07 and the third 04?
08:04:14 <Gonozal_VIII> those don't have to be the ones belonging to that action 4 string
08:05:05 <SquireJames> right, so where do we find date (2A) in this mess
08:05:07 <LA[lord]> Gonozal_VIII: I think he has ignored the action4 for now.. good :P
08:05:31 <SquireJames> I simply use 04 to find the name of the loco so i knew where to start looking :P
08:05:34 <Gonozal_VIII> but he wants to change the 0-4-0 saddle tank
08:05:43 <SquireJames> I know that simply effected the name
08:05:57 <SquireJames> I believe the 0-4-0 Saddle Tank has a current start date of 1903
08:06:31 <Gonozal_VIII> that has some random in it
08:07:54 <SquireJames> according to grf2xml
08:08:01 <SquireJames> line 427 is indeed the right line
08:08:13 <SquireJames> and the date is set to 0x000 (0) but wouldnt that be 1920?
08:09:23 <Gonozal_VIII> not sure about that 00 00, could be something like "whenever the game starts"
08:09:53 <SquireJames> ah correction, my mistake
08:10:01 <SquireJames> the 0-4-0 is set to appear in 1919
08:10:03 <LA[lord]> arghh.. I can't find 2a there,..
08:10:10 <SquireJames> so, that woould be close as damn it to 1920
08:10:16 <shodan> hey, i've got a problem with the latest beta, when it starts up I'm giving a couple of conf warnings
08:10:27 <Gonozal_VIII> 00 00 is 1920, yes...
08:10:30 <shodan> anyone know how to fix it? I couldn't see an answer on the wiki last night
08:10:41 <LA[lord]> shodan: what warnings?
08:11:03 <LA[lord]> what was the one you updated from?
08:11:08 <Gonozal_VIII> something like trailing characters?
08:11:15 <shodan> ini: trailing characters at end of setting 'advanced_vehicle_list'
08:11:24 <shodan> also 'loading_indicators'
08:11:26 <LA[lord]> remove the offending line from cfg
08:11:31 <Gonozal_VIII> changed from true/false to 0,1,2
08:11:49 <shodan> 0 false, 1 true, 2... ?
08:12:03 <Gonozal_VIII> check the settings
08:12:16 <SquireJames> hmm, I can't find the tram locomotive on there which is weird
08:12:20 <Gonozal_VIII> something like none, only for player, for all
08:12:22 <LA[lord]> I believe that's show cometitior's loading .. the 2
08:12:52 <SquireJames> In the converted html
08:13:02 <SquireJames> although, i have found the 4-4-0 which starts in 1902
08:13:08 <Gonozal_VIII> trams are road vehicles
08:13:24 <SquireJames> tis an 0-6-0 Steam Tram, its a rail locomotive
08:13:40 <SquireJames> anyway, forget the tram, I can use the 4-4-0
08:13:55 <LA[lord]> wait.. the grf name is..? I'll decode it to see whatäs going on :D
08:14:06 <SquireJames> heres the confusing part, both the 4-4-0 Express Locomotive and the 0-4-0 Saddle Tank have the date set as 0x000 (0)
08:14:25 <SquireJames> buuut, the 4-4-0 Express Locomotive appears in 1902, the Saddle Tank not till 1919
08:14:54 <Gonozal_VIII> wow, i have vehicles available in the 1870s
08:15:28 <Gonozal_VIII> check the long format date
08:15:51 <SquireJames> okay, where in the html is that
08:16:11 <Gonozal_VIII> if it's not in the same table, it's not defined there
08:16:43 <Gonozal_VIII> then maybe you have the wrong lines :-)
08:17:00 <Gonozal_VIII> check stuff like hp and max speed
08:17:20 <Gonozal_VIII> and you can sort the vehicles ingame by id... that could help too
08:18:23 <SquireJames> right well everything else checks out, the weight, hp, tractive effort etc
08:18:34 <SquireJames> all matches ingame (have it open and paused)
08:19:06 <SquireJames> would Miscellaneous Flags be anything to do with long format date
08:20:47 <DaleStan> Does the documentation for Miscellaneous Flags say anything about long format date?
08:22:09 <SquireJames> no, but i was checking since it was the only thing not clearly defined
08:22:25 <SquireJames> i.e the power box hmm, might just be dealing with power
08:22:58 <SquireJames> miscellaneous flags could be defined as anything, hence i was wondering if pikka somehow used it for Long Format Date
08:23:16 <peter1138> long format date is defined by the long format date field
08:23:25 <peter1138> if grf2html doesn't show that then it's out dated
08:23:32 <peter1138> (and i've never heard of it)
08:23:58 <SquireJames> clearly it must be
08:24:00 <DaleStan> peter1138 needs to lurk the TTDPatch Graphics forum, then.
08:24:09 <SquireJames> so, back to the old NFO
08:24:51 <Gonozal_VIII> grf2html shows long date format, if it's not there, it's just not there
08:25:03 <Gonozal_VIII> maybe the date gets changed somewhere else
08:25:43 <SquireJames> I cant personally find anything on the TTDPatchWiki that deals with Long Format Date
08:26:01 <DaleStan> And the long format introduction date is very definitely in grf2html's output.
08:26:50 <SquireJames> ah okays, must have missed that on the search
08:27:14 <Gonozal_VIII> no need to search... click on action 0, click on trains, there it is
08:27:57 <Gonozal_VIII> search for different lines with the same vehicle id
08:28:31 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r11955 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r11926): Prevent bridge and tunnel ends being placed on rivers.
08:28:32 <LA[lord]> SquireJames: I really really suggest you to start with the tutorial.. It explains some basic things too which you seem not to know.. Really.. And I'm not being mean or anything. It's just difficult to explain, if I don't know what things need to be explained.. :)
08:29:35 <SquireJames> Where does Vehicle ID lurk in the html Gonozal
08:29:48 <Gonozal_VIII> the head of the table
08:29:52 <DaleStan> Somewhere near the letters "ID", usually.
08:31:15 <SquireJames> 0x12 "Sprite ID" 0xFD (253
08:31:27 <SquireJames> so, i nee to find more lines with the 253 Sprite ID right?
08:31:44 <Gonozal_VIII> somehow all of them have sprite id 253^^
08:31:55 <Gonozal_VIII> something like that
08:32:09 <Gonozal_VIII> next to property
08:32:16 <Gonozal_VIII> first line in the table
08:32:50 <SquireJames> Text 0x01 "0-6-0 Pannier Tank (Steam)"
08:32:50 <SquireJames> #631 Action0 - Define Properties
08:32:50 <SquireJames> Feature 0x00 "trains" Property ID 0x01 (1)
08:32:50 <SquireJames> 0x12 "Sprite ID" 0xFD (253)
08:33:14 <SquireJames> but, the 4-4-0, the 0-4-0 Saddle Tank, and infact, all of em, have the same Sprite ID
08:33:24 <SquireJames> but that cant be right
08:33:29 <Gonozal_VIII> [09:31:43] Gonozal_VIII: somehow all of them have sprite id 253^^
08:33:43 <DaleStan> Try reading the fine documentation.
08:33:56 <SquireJames> Okay, so if they all have the same sprite ID
08:34:08 <Gonozal_VIII> i guess that means something like last defined sprite bla
08:34:23 <Gonozal_VIII> ID 0x01 (1) <-- that
08:34:26 <SquireJames> I'll have to try Vehicle ID or something
08:37:00 <peter1138> it's not a sprite id
08:37:06 <Gonozal_VIII> that's id 1, so if it's a complete set, you have vehicles never expire on, some late year like 2100 and sort the list of available vehicles by id, it's the second
08:37:16 <peter1138> it's an index into a table of sprite ids, heh
08:37:47 <SquireJames> so the 0-4-0 Saddle tank would be id 54/
08:37:48 <SquireJames> Property ID 0x36 (54
08:38:11 <SquireJames> no thats not right either
08:38:21 <SquireJames> since as you say the 0-4-0 is the first train sorted by ID
08:38:24 <SquireJames> so it has to be 1
08:38:45 <SquireJames> either way its not 54!
08:38:56 <SquireJames> 0x1A "sort the purchase list" 0x00 (0)
08:39:05 <DaleStan> Except that not all IDs are necessarily available at any one time, and that the by ID sort likely obeys prop 1A.
08:39:44 <Gonozal_VIII> prop 1a... why is that useful?
08:40:07 <Gonozal_VIII> couldn't they just use the ids in the order they want them to be?
08:40:31 <DaleStan> Not without changing all the old IDs, and breaking compatibility.
08:40:58 <Gonozal_VIII> but the set replaces all...
08:41:00 <peter1138> 1A was a bitch for doing the engine pool :)
08:41:17 <DaleStan> But the set wasn't necessarily developed all at once.
08:41:23 <peter1138> Gonozal_VIII, backward compatibility with itself
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08:42:12 <SquireJames> So, do we have more of a chance of finding this Long Date Format in the NFO than we do in the HTML/
08:42:37 <Gonozal_VIII> no, you can just search for the text in the html
08:43:29 <SquireJames> Well, I find nothing to seperate the introduction dates of the 0-4-0 Saddle Tank and the 4-4-0 express
08:43:31 <DaleStan> *I* have an equally good chance of finding it in either. *You*, on the other hand, seem incapable of searching for "long" in the HTML, so the chances of you finding anything useful in either are slim.
08:43:42 <SquireJames> even though they are ingame 17 years apart
08:44:21 <Gonozal_VIII> search for "Long format introduction date" in the html
08:44:25 <SquireJames> DaleStan, if you wish to change from helping me to insulting me, find someone else
08:45:04 <Gonozal_VIII> and search for lines containing 0x00 (0)
08:45:16 <SquireJames> #3993 Action0 - Define Properties
08:45:16 <SquireJames> Feature 0x00 "trains" Property ID 0x00 (0)
08:45:16 <SquireJames> 0x2A "Long format introduction date" 0x000AA9C7 (698823)
08:45:23 <DaleStan> SquireJames: If you wish to get useful help, READ THE SPEC. If you don't understand something there, ask about THE SPEC.
08:45:32 <Gonozal_VIII> see, there you have it
08:45:50 <SquireJames> i'd rather talk to a person than a piece of paper. If i get stuck, people can understand and help
08:46:05 <SquireJames> well, except for yourself it seems, then again whether your a person is debatable
08:46:10 <dih> people that understand and can help write those
08:46:21 <dih> to not have to be asked every 5 mins
08:46:30 <SquireJames> anyways, yes, I seem to have found it, so presumably 69882 converts to 1919
08:47:23 <SquireJames> well, 69882 converts to a hexidecimal number, which is interpretted as 1919
08:47:43 <SquireJames> 69882 is something to do with number of days or something I presume
08:47:44 <Gonozal_VIII> the hex is also there
08:47:57 <Gonozal_VIII> 000AA9C7 <-- hex
08:48:01 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r11956 /trunk/src/ (station_cmd.cpp water_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS#1675]: Disallow building locks and docks on rapids.
08:48:20 <SquireJames> so, if 000AA9C7 is 1919
08:48:24 <Gonozal_VIII> the bytes are the other way around in the nfo... endianness thing...
08:48:50 <SquireJames> 000AA9C7 would be C7 A9 A0 OO ?
08:49:01 <Tefad> four digits of hex cannot be larger than 65535
08:49:10 <Gonozal_VIII> look at line 3993
08:49:27 <Rubidium> SquireJames: better 'just' used \w<decimal number>
08:49:53 <Rubidium> or there might even be a year-month-day thingy, but I don't know whether that outputs 'long dates'
08:49:53 <Gonozal_VIII> tefad, it's 8 digits of hex
08:50:01 <SquireJames> 3370 * 14 02 00 03 82 B4 00 FF 01 02 00 00 05 11 00
08:50:21 <Tefad> between character encoding, base conversions...
08:50:25 <SquireJames> sorry wrong line, going by lines in the document
08:50:47 <Gonozal_VIII> hint: it starts with 3993
08:50:53 <SquireJames> 3993 * 10 00 00 01 01 00 2A C7 A9 0A 00
08:51:06 <SquireJames> well my program lists the line of the document (line 1 for example) first
08:51:14 <SquireJames> hence I misread it
08:51:22 <Gonozal_VIII> [09:48:50] SquireJames: 000AA9C7 would be C7 A9 A0 OO ? <-- see... it's right there
08:51:52 <SquireJames> ah ha, I see it :)
08:52:23 <SquireJames> so, changing that to another already defined number (i,e i want it to appear in 1902, same as the 4-4-0 is easy
08:52:25 <Gonozal_VIII> but 00, not OO^^
08:52:38 <SquireJames> (yes, sorry syntax mistake there)
08:52:51 <SquireJames> how does one define, for example, 1885
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08:52:52 <Gonozal_VIII> i guess just removing that line could do the trick
08:53:33 <SquireJames> well according to the wiki
08:53:47 <Gonozal_VIII> if you meant 1920, not 1902...
08:54:01 <SquireJames> 701265 is 1920, and we have discovered that 698823 is 1919
08:54:11 <SquireJames> no, the 4-4-0 appears in 1902
08:54:19 <SquireJames> so, i find the Long format date that references the 4-4-0
08:54:30 <SquireJames> and copy the date over to the Saddle Tank
08:55:07 <SquireJames> but, i don't want either of them to appear in 1902, to be precise i want the saddle tank to appear in 1903, when the first Hunslet 0-4-0 was made, and i want the 4-4-0 to date back prior to 1900
08:56:05 <SquireJames> so, if 701265 is 1920, and 698823 is 1919
08:56:11 <SquireJames> the difference between them is 2442
08:56:17 <Gonozal_VIII> 0x000A7051 (684113) that's 1873
08:56:43 <SquireJames> question then, how does one know what number is what year
08:56:49 <DaleStan> If I thought it would do any good, I'd point out that the spec contains interesting information about how to type dates and get them automatically converted into the correct numbers.
08:57:08 <LA[lord]> 694595 is about 1903
08:57:24 <Gonozal_VIII> Set the vehicle introduction date, in days since the year 0
08:57:40 <SquireJames> I thought it might be something like that
08:57:44 <LA[lord]> because there are 364 days in year.. it's somewhat inaccurae
08:57:49 <SquireJames> so, long format date uses year 0 as a start point
08:57:55 <SquireJames> whereas normal format uses 1920?
08:58:19 <SquireJames> well, according to the wiki, its usually number of days since 1920
08:58:27 <SquireJames> ah good, finally i grasp something
08:58:37 <LA[lord]> and long format is number of days from 0 ?
08:59:22 <LA[lord]> Long format introduction date (2A)Set the vehicle introduction date, in days since the year 0.
09:00:00 <Gonozal_VIII> it's all documented in the link i posted earlier :P
09:00:15 <SquireJames> so, technically, if you set the 0-4-0 to appear in 389090 it would appear intime for the Battle of Hastings :)
09:00:31 <SquireJames> but one must convert 389090 to hex first
09:00:44 <Gonozal_VIII> and turn it around
09:00:49 <SquireJames> (and it assumes you can set the game that far back but i digress)
09:00:50 <LA[lord]> btw 694595 is a9943 in hex -> 43 99 0a 00
09:01:17 <SquireJames> but hex conversion is relatively easy using the calculator right
09:01:23 <SquireJames> just enter your number and then hit hex
09:01:32 <Gonozal_VIII> you can start the game in year 0
09:01:35 <LA[lord]> that's what I did :P
09:01:43 <SquireJames> (if my lessons in hexidecimal serve me right)
09:01:52 <SquireJames> hehe, interesting but youd need one hell of a vehicle set!
09:02:24 <Gonozal_VIII> guys that carry stuff on their backs^^
09:02:43 <SquireJames> Well, its been a pet project of mine to slide the game back to 1870 something
09:03:14 <Gonozal_VIII> serbian rail set starts in 1873
09:03:15 <SquireJames> with a number of trains, a horse drawn tram and omnibus, some clipper ships and early steamers
09:03:29 <SquireJames> well, i would use that but im not Serbian ;)
09:03:34 <Gonozal_VIII> ships are problematic without engine pool
09:03:42 <Gonozal_VIII> only 11 of them...
09:03:46 <SquireJames> i'd rather have me Stirling Singles :)
09:04:11 <SquireJames> heres a more advanced, theoretical question
09:04:21 <LA[lord]> "guys that carry stuff on their backs^^" >> slaves
09:04:43 <SquireJames> ive heard its possible to configure grfs so, for example, the same train built in 1945 would have different stats to the one identical built in 1925
09:04:54 <SquireJames> using date based changes along the same lines as livery changes
09:04:56 <Gonozal_VIII> first engine in the serbian set has top speed 16 km/h :-)
09:05:22 <LA[lord]> SquireJames: It's controlled by action7/9
09:05:31 <SquireJames> so, with this in mind
09:05:35 <DaleStan> LA[lord]: No, it's not.
09:05:48 <Gonozal_VIII> action 2 i think
09:06:00 <SquireJames> would it not be possible to have a single sailing ship, and have it change at certain dates into one with new graphics (as per livery change) and new stats
09:06:09 <SquireJames> getting around the 11 ship rule?
09:06:41 <SquireJames> so, yes you couldn't build a Tea Clipper in 1930 because the Tea Clipper has changed into a Steam, Steel Hulled Cargo Freighter
09:06:49 <LA[lord]> DaleStan: action7/9 to skip the sprites if certain year I meant..
09:07:08 <LA[lord]> and have another set for differnet years
09:07:10 <DaleStan> But that's not how trains with different stats in different build years are done.
09:07:16 <SquireJames> through date and livery changes. Even if the name didn't change, you could atleast just call it "Cargo Ship"
09:07:30 <SquireJames> I just heard talk of it
09:07:32 <LA[lord]> but you can do it, can't you.. just have to reload grfs :P
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09:07:51 <SquireJames> and wondered if it were possible to kind of, roll over unused sprite ids with this idea
09:08:07 <SquireJames> so, say for example, by 1980 you don't let the player build 0-4-0 Hunslets any more
09:08:34 <SquireJames> that id could be, using the grf date based changes, into a Diesel Shunter
09:08:50 <peter1138> sprite ids are not a problem
09:09:02 <SquireJames> well, vehicle ids, sorry
09:09:03 <Gonozal_VIII> the idea is not bad but that nice guy that just joined is working on something better^^
09:09:04 <LA[lord]> better use peter1138's 'Engine pools' patch
09:09:08 <DaleStan> LA[lord]: Not unless you want all vehicles to get the new stats in 1945.
09:09:27 <LA[lord]> DaleStan: Have I stated something opposite?
09:09:44 <DaleStan> If you want just the vehicles that built after 1945 to get new stats, then you can't use 7/9.
09:09:47 <LA[lord]> all trains get repaired
09:09:49 <SquireJames> well, if theres something better being made then good :) It was just an idea that bounced around in my head since i heard it was possible
09:10:24 <SquireJames> actually, 7/9 could be used to "refit" locos automatically
09:10:24 <DaleStan> You use action 2, like Gonozal_VIII said.
09:10:34 <SquireJames> for example, removing the streamlining from Merchant Navies
09:10:44 <LA[lord]> DaleStan: Useless arguing ^^
09:10:47 <SquireJames> or automatically changing A1 4-6-2s into A3 in 1945
09:11:01 <peter1138> action 7/9 cannot be used to change things dynamically
09:11:20 <SquireJames> Well, from what i have read, it applies to all vehicles of that type based on date
09:11:30 <LA[lord]> but that can be covered in readme ^^
09:11:40 <SquireJames> if i made a hunslet change to a paxman in 1945
09:11:40 <DaleStan> But there are ways that don't require reloading the grf. So why no use those ways instead?
09:11:52 <SquireJames> then in 1945 all hunslets magically change to paxmans
09:11:59 <SquireJames> not just those built after 1945
09:12:03 <LA[lord]> because action2 chains are confuzing me?
09:12:10 <SquireJames> Obviously not good
09:12:25 <DaleStan> Ok, then: So why not learn those ways instead?
09:12:52 <SquireJames> but, that same functionality would be very good for forced refits, like I said, simulating the conversion of A1s to A3s or perhaps uprating the engines on a Class 47
09:13:14 <LA[lord]> because I have no sprites to work on.. and I'm too lazy to draw some louzy sprites to learn complex action02 .. ^^
09:13:48 <SquireJames> With UKRS I have to sell my Merchant Navies and buy a whole new one to remove the Streamlining in 1963
09:14:04 <SquireJames> not very economical or realistic
09:14:21 <SquireJames> well, then it gives me bsically a whole new engine
09:14:36 <Gonozal_VIII> just use different colored rectangles and see if you can get it to build a slow blue rectangle in 1920 and a fast red rectangle in 1950 from the same id (or something like that)^^
09:14:49 <SquireJames> i'd rather have the same locomotive (i.e it was built in 1943 and still says it was built in 1943 even after being rebuilt in 1953)
09:15:12 <LA[lord]> I don't like ugly things Gonozal_VIII.. You can see that from my avatar @ tt-fporums ^^
09:15:28 <SquireJames> just rebuilding the engine (as they did with the Merchant Navys) didn't really extend their lifespan
09:15:40 <SquireJames> not like selling a new engine and buying a new one does
09:16:00 <SquireJames> See what i'm getting at?
09:16:08 <LA[lord]> and learning action2 would certainly need some help.. I don't like asking helpp very much either ^^
09:16:59 <LA[lord]> SquireJames: Autoreplace.. Train goes to depot -> is "rebuilded" -> leaves depot
09:18:58 <SquireJames> but would that reset the lifespan of the locomotive?
09:19:20 <peter1138> yeah, that's the point of autorenew, heh
09:19:22 <Gonozal_VIII> of course it does, it's a completely new engine
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09:19:31 <SquireJames> well thats not what im talking about
09:19:57 <SquireJames> the Merchant Navys were "rebuilt" but all that entailed really was a change of the drive system and removing the cladding
09:19:59 <LA[lord]> DaleStan: To finish off.. I need some very good reason to start learning Action02 and it's variational things.. Really. Atm I can handle everything I need with actionD, ActionA, Action8, Action7/9 and sometimes Action0's..
09:20:03 <peter1138> you want the merchant navy to automatically lose its streamlining
09:20:09 <SquireJames> the boilers and so forth were the same
09:20:15 <SquireJames> buuut, retain its lifespan
09:20:33 <SquireJames> so, even after the streamlining is removed in 1963, it still says the Locomotive was built in 1943
09:20:34 <peter1138> well, ask pikka to implement it. i don't see why though
09:21:11 <Gonozal_VIII> that would suck big time, as the reliability would be around 0% and breakdowns all the time
09:21:20 <SquireJames> it doesn't magically give me a brand new shiney Merchant Navy in 1963, it gives me a clapped out "Rebuilt" Merchant Navy with only a few years left on the clock, as per real life
09:21:40 <SquireJames> hehe Gonozal, thats pretty much what happened to them
09:21:48 *** dih is now known as dih|away
09:22:17 <SquireJames> although, perhaps with the rebuilt (unstreamlined) version, you could boost the reliability, to simulate the repair and change of the drive trains
09:22:23 <Gonozal_VIII> and you pay full prize for autorenew, it's not like you get that for free
09:22:57 <SquireJames> BR was cheap, and the Merchant Navys broke down alot, so they changed the drive change system, took off the troublesome cladding
09:23:04 <SquireJames> and it helped to extend their lives a little
09:23:09 *** dih|away is now known as dih
09:23:20 <SquireJames> not brand new engines, but helped to fix a few reliability issues
09:23:59 <SquireJames> with a small reliability boost through the grf, along with an automatic change of sprite at the same time, that effect could be achieved
09:23:59 <peter1138> what was the point of this discussion again?
09:24:07 <SquireJames> hehe, sorry, got side tracked
09:24:23 <SquireJames> Just to check my hex, since its been two years since i dabbled in it
09:24:41 <SquireJames> 1903*365 = 694595
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09:25:16 <Gonozal_VIII> i guess you could change the sprites and the vehicle life....
09:25:18 <SquireJames> which according to the calculator is A9943 in hex, and thats formated as A9 94 30 right
09:25:23 <peter1138> leap years & the like
09:25:25 <yorick> peter1138: I think locks could be built on rapids
09:25:51 <SquireJames> well, when its done backwards for NFO yes
09:26:00 <peter1138> well you always just remove the rapids first, heh
09:26:02 <SquireJames> so, add trailing (or in this case leading) 0s
09:26:28 <peter1138> but locks are usually not built on top of rapids
09:26:43 <SquireJames> So A9943 = A99430 = 00 A9 94 30 = 30 94 A9 00
09:27:09 <peter1138> where did the extra 0 come from
09:27:22 <peter1138> A9943 = 00 0A 99 43 == 43 99 0A 00
09:27:50 <SquireJames> ah forgot, 0s go in front not behind
09:28:15 <yorick> building a canal with a lock next to it looks soo strange
09:28:21 <peter1138> 10 is not 100 is it...
09:28:22 <SquireJames> so A9943 = 0A9943 = 00 0A 99 43
09:28:43 * yorick gotta install something
09:28:47 <SquireJames> As I said, the last time I dabbled with hex was two years ago
09:29:06 <SquireJames> yes LA[lord] because of the sorting system
09:30:03 <SquireJames> :) its coming back, slowly
09:30:13 <SquireJames> i must have gone soft modding Armada2
09:31:29 <LA[lord]> hmm.. I gotta draw something now.. with paper and pencil :D
09:31:32 <Gonozal_VIII> additional 0s in front and not at the back has nothing to do with hex, same in decimal and binary ;-)
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09:33:42 <SquireJames> well indeed, i just forgot
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09:44:05 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r11957 /trunk/src/ (rail.cpp road.cpp): -Codechange [FS#1678]: Minor simplification and optimisation when checking for available road/rail types (bilbo)
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10:22:04 <Gussoh> if configure says "WARNING: no video driver found, building dedicated only". What should I install?
10:24:49 <Gussoh> peter1138: it worked, thank you
10:38:19 <Gussoh> Is i normal to have red questionmarks instead of shorelines? =D
10:38:39 <Gussoh> looks as if i am missing a texture.. :/
10:39:04 <Gussoh> ah "Your 'OPENTTDW.GRF' file is corrupted or missing! The file was part of"
10:40:44 <peter1138> i'm not sure how people get that, as it comes with the source and binaries...
10:41:55 <Gussoh> i had a zipfile of the datafiles from an old version of openttd.
10:42:37 <Gussoh> I think it would have been much better if the original files should be located in a separate folder
10:42:42 <Gussoh> not mixed in with the new ones
10:44:38 <peter1138> put the original data files in a global place
10:44:43 <peter1138> put your newgrfs in .openttd/data
10:44:56 <peter1138> and leave the game grfs in bin/data
10:44:57 <Gussoh> okay. where is the "global place"?
10:45:36 <peter1138> dbg: [misc] /usr/local/share/games/openttd/ added as search path
10:45:49 <peter1138> run openttd -d misc=4 and check the first few lines
10:45:56 <peter1138> unfortunately you get a ton of other spam too :(
10:46:27 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
10:46:29 <SquireJames> right, wows, I have just about got to grips with this
10:46:42 <Gussoh> okay, that would work for me. but my friends run as user :/
10:47:03 <SquireJames> so now, the 0-6-0 Tram, the 4-4-0 Express, and the 0-6-0 Freight along with all the early carriages/waggons appear in 1899
10:47:04 <peter1138> well if they're compiling it then it can be set via configure
10:47:13 <SquireJames> and the 0-4-0 Saddle tank appears in 1903
10:47:40 <Gussoh> peter1138: haha, just the compileing-part is way to difficult already :) but ofcourse. there are always solutions
10:47:59 <peter1138> but, run as user -- no access at all to the global path?
10:48:20 <Gussoh> no, we use the computers as school
10:49:04 <peter1138> in that case you can put the original data in ~/.openttd/data
10:49:35 <Gussoh> Id really like it so search in data/original/ or something like that. that would be very easy for me _D:
10:50:00 <Gussoh> strange keyboard, sorry
10:50:08 <peter1138> all search paths are used, so they can be in any of them
10:51:03 <Gussoh> but i doesn't search recursive, does it?
10:53:06 <peter1138> newgrfs can be in subdirectories though
10:53:25 <Gussoh> yeah, i have a subdir for them. that is very good
10:54:57 <Gussoh> one thing i would like about newgrf is if there were any "compilations" of newgrfs that works with each other. like a list of newgrf that enables some new industries and new cargos and new vehicles.
10:55:43 <Gussoh> it is very hard to put together a working set of newgrf. you have to know what each of them conatins and what depends onwhat
10:55:55 <LA[lord]> most station sets work with eachother
10:56:28 <Gussoh> but i always get problems with being unable to transport some cargos
10:56:31 <LA[lord]> I think coop games have a long list of grfs which they use.. and whihc work with eachother
10:57:00 <Gussoh> but they just have lists of ALL the grfs they use
10:57:06 <Gussoh> so you are able to join a game
10:57:24 <Gussoh> so the server decides which of them to use
10:57:26 <LA[lord]> nope.. they have cfg file up somewhere too (wait a mom)
10:57:44 <Gussoh> that would be really greay
10:58:25 <Gussoh> when we start games today we start with manually copying a list of grfs by searching for servers and listing the grfs used
11:00:59 <Gussoh> another great feature would be if openttd downloaded the grf:s automatically also :) that would be very good
11:01:15 <Gussoh> and it cant be too hard, can it? :D
11:03:20 <LA[lord]> hmm.. can't find the cfg atm..
11:03:31 <Gussoh> LA[lord]: ok, thank you anyway
11:10:34 <yorick> Gussoh: some copyright issues
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11:54:49 <SmatZ> uptime 1234:19 ... whoo, 1234:56 soon :)
11:56:31 <blathijs> The other way around is cool too
11:57:05 <blathijs> 9 years, 87 days, 65 hours, 43 minutes, 21 seconds
11:57:12 <blathijs> Though 65 hours might pose a problem :-)
11:58:07 <SmatZ> :) 9 years would be a problem for me too :(
11:59:16 <Gekz> heath ledger commeration ceremony.
12:01:00 <SmatZ> Gekz: you will die because of upcoming commeration ceremony?
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12:47:09 <peter1138> that's only 20 days...
12:47:58 <peter1138> 12:47:52 up 1162 days, 16:12, 1 user, load average: 0.02, 0.07, 0.08
12:48:22 <SmatZ> 20 days is a lot for me :)
12:51:00 <blathijs> peter1138: That's quite a lot... :-0
13:01:12 <Digitalfox> 1162 days o_O.... What OS do you have?
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13:04:57 <Gekz> peter1138: you dont use xorg xD
13:05:13 <Gekz> peter1138: print uname -a here
13:05:37 <peter1138> not that xorg gives me problems
13:06:13 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: smatz * r11958 /trunk/src/ai/trolly/build.cpp: -Fix (r11204): NewAI couldn't build any road vehicles when there were any tram grfs loaded
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13:12:06 <yorick> is there any progress on NoAI?
13:13:06 <yorick> truelight was the main developer on it
13:15:51 * yorick randomly points finger on dev list
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13:16:08 <yorick> belugas: do you know who's working on the NoAI branch?
13:16:48 <Digitalfox> yorick: I think no one.. But you could learn how it works and code some AI's :)
13:17:06 <yorick> I'm already doing that
13:17:47 <yorick> I think rubidium is doing the most for it now
13:19:23 <Digitalfox> yorick: A user who done some NewAI's was Zuu
13:19:38 <yorick> I have been learning squirrel the past few days
13:19:57 <Digitalfox> But if you're looking for a DEV i supose Rubidium will be your best bet
13:21:03 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r11959 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 3 dirs):
13:21:03 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: -Codechange: Use macro to loop for specific engine types instead of using specific indexes each time.
13:21:03 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: -Codechange: Minor scope changes in said loops.
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13:53:30 <Eddi|zuHause3> wtf are "indexes"?
13:53:59 <Eddi|zuHause3> shouldn't those be "indices"?
13:53:59 <ln-> alternative spelling for "indices"
14:01:57 *** dih is now known as dih|away
14:02:41 *** dih|away is now known as dih
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14:12:36 <peter1138> it's not interesting
14:15:57 <Eddi|zuHause3> err... frosch123? i did not understand your reply
14:16:27 <frosch123> Load the attached grf after alpine, and it should work.
14:17:09 <peter1138> the perils of default-on new features...
14:17:14 <peter1138> or rather, always-on
14:18:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> appears to work
14:20:45 <Gekz> peter1138: it interests me, atleast /msg it please :)
14:21:10 <peter1138> it's just a debian box, they all look the same anyway
14:22:51 <Eddi|zuHause3> i'd say he wants to try some kernel specific vulnerabilties ;)
14:23:29 <Gekz> i'm wondering what kernel hes using that made it so stable
14:23:49 <peter1138> it's a stock debian 2.6 kernel
14:24:26 <peter1138> how could that have been up for over 1000 days?
14:26:12 <peter1138> OS installed 2004-11-11 14:43 UTC
14:26:21 <peter1138> last rebooted 2004-11-16 21:30 UTC
14:26:54 <peter1138> (timestamps of /var/log/debian-installer and /var/log/dmesg)
14:27:00 <Gekz> thats why i wanna see your uname -a xD
14:27:26 <Gekz> Linux bbqsrc 2.6.23-1-686 #1 SMP Fri Dec 21 13:57:07 UTC 2007 i686 GNU/Linux
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14:28:15 <Eddi|zuHause3> hm... indeed... leo says "index - pl. indexes, indices --- der Index - Pl. die Indizes"
14:29:11 <Eddi|zuHause3> so it's something where german is more strict than english
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14:34:27 * SpComb is approaching 300 days uptime
14:34:44 <SpComb> I don't want to say how many days left because if I do, it's sure to go down on the second-to-last day or something
14:34:50 <Eddi|zuHause3> i just made a new installation this saturday
14:35:06 <Forked> I stopped caring about uptime the day I had 364 days uptime.. and my dad drilled a hole through a wall hitting the power cable on the other side
14:35:19 <peter1138> now that's a nice way to go, he
14:35:45 <Korenn> did you dad go down with your system? ;)
14:35:45 <SpComb> I don't care about uptime on my desktop, but this is a server that's now been running untouched in a corner of a room for a while now, so it's nice to try and keep its uptime up
14:35:49 <Forked> Gekz: no, I stopped caring about uptime :p
14:36:11 <SpComb> some time four months ago the box itself was moved from the cellar to the other side of the building on the first floor... but it has an UPS, so there wasn't any need to shut it down :P
14:36:18 <Korenn> kernel updates > uptime!
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14:36:31 <Forked> more hard drives > uptime ..
14:36:33 <SpComb> said box is also debian stable
14:36:55 <Korenn> saving power while you're on vacation > uptime :P
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14:37:17 <SpComb> and it doesn't do anything except run screen, irssi, a bunch of ssh processes, and unfortunately enough, apache/php/mysql
14:37:22 <SpComb> I should probably get rid of those
14:37:46 <SpComb> and a DNS server, so I guess it's not really that unloaded after all, meh
14:38:33 * SpComb wouldn't have minded a physical box dedicated only to his irssi process
14:42:48 <Draakon> :S when i try to patch player.h file, svn says that there is no url for player.h
14:44:00 <Eddi|zuHause3> there is no player.h
14:44:13 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's been split into player_*.h
14:44:37 <Eddi|zuHause3> where * in {base, face, func, gui, type}
14:45:05 <yorick> use grep to see in wich file the edits must come
14:47:10 <SpComb> terom@qmsk:/bin$ grep grep grep
14:47:10 <SpComb> Binary file grep matches
14:49:11 <SpComb> or a short C tool that fixes chmod's chdmod
14:49:16 <SpComb> gcc probably doesn't need chmod
14:49:22 <Eddi|zuHause3> i have backups of my root partition, i probably wouldn't even need a live cd
14:49:47 <SpComb> a LiveCD would be a far quicker fix to a broken chmod than doing a restore
14:49:58 <Eddi|zuHause3> i mean not restore
14:50:03 <SpComb> well, unless you can restore that one file quickly, and with the correct permissions
14:50:05 <Eddi|zuHause3> but run the chmod in the backup ;)
14:50:28 <SpComb> hmm, you could scp the chmod binary from another system over and then just run that
14:52:02 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: smatz * r11960 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 3 dirs): -Cleanup: simplify some IsTunnel(Tile) / IsBridge(Tile) conditions
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14:56:16 <Draakon> i like games more if they have their own game language not C++ :P
14:56:47 <hylje> how does that relate to liking games
14:57:14 <SpComb> their own game language?
14:57:35 <Draakon> imo if a game has its own scripting languages its better to mod
14:57:50 <hylje> scripting lang is another thing
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15:13:55 <SpComb> Draakon: there's some kind of rule that custom scripting languages generally suck
15:14:04 <SpComb> as opposed to embedding lua, python, etc
15:14:40 <Dominik> AntB: thanks for the dstoolbar.grf! it's great for a start
15:15:00 <SpComb> if a game has a custom scripting laugage that was written for that game, then that scripting language will, with high probablity, suck
15:15:01 <dih> you can script your own ai's there :-)
15:15:03 <yorick> I found out when learning squirrel for noai :P
15:15:22 <yorick> squirrel generally sucks :)
15:15:50 <Draakon> dih: i dont want to do that, just saying that scripting is better than C++
15:16:09 <Draakon> SpComb: do you know Elders Scroll IV Oblivion?
15:17:32 <Draakon> that game has a very good scripting support that it can run about 150(if it is that limit) so called, mission(feature) mods together with no conflicts at all
15:17:36 <SpComb> and of course, the language that a game is implemented in is different from anything that it uses for scripting
15:17:45 <SpComb> OpenTTD uses the console with .scr files or whatever they are for "scripting"
15:18:22 <dih> very very limited console / scripts
15:19:35 <Draakon> SpComb: that games files can be modified anyway you want
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15:38:49 <DorpsGek> yorick: I have 5 registered users with 5 registered hostmasks; 1 owner and 0 admins.
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15:45:30 <yorick> from stats page: Sacr0 wasn't very popular, getting kicked 73 times!
15:45:30 <yorick> For example, like this:
15:45:30 <yorick> *** SacrO was kicked by Bjarn1
15:45:30 <yorick> Bjarn1 seemed to be hated too: 30 kicks were received.
15:45:31 <yorick> (names distorted to avoid highlights)
15:46:18 <ln-> yorick: and to protect anonymity
15:46:25 <yorick> 14 glx "system.out.println("Bored :(");"
15:46:53 <yorick> 20 ln- "btw, does someone know where i could buy TTD?"
15:47:05 <glx> we were printing "Bored :(" in many languages
15:47:19 <ln-> i did eventually buy TTD, btw.
15:47:44 <glx> anyway my line doesn't compile
15:48:02 <glx> case is important in java
15:50:44 <yorick> B3lugas was also very polite: 11 ops from him/her.
15:50:58 <yorick> Rub1d1um deoped 11 users.
15:51:17 <glx> lol usually they op/deop theirselves
15:51:25 <yorick> names distorted to protect anonimity
15:51:38 <yorick> DorpsGek donated 33 ops in the channel...
15:51:46 <yorick> DorpsGek is the channel sheriff with 22 deops.
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15:51:56 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o peter1138
15:53:10 <yorick> Bjarn1 is a very aggressive person. He/She attacked others 73 times.
15:53:10 <yorick> For example, like this:
15:53:10 <yorick> * Bjarn1 slaps hexeditor
15:53:10 <yorick> d1h3dral can't control his/her aggressions, either. He picked on others 57 times.
15:53:54 <yorick> I'll stop flooding the channel with random facts now
15:54:17 <yorick> talking about random things is DaleStan 's job
15:55:06 <dih> yorick... dangerous lines you are spitting out :-P
15:55:25 <DaleStan> You might attract undesirables.
15:57:09 * peter1138 smirks at the "Electric trains' corner speeds again reduced in beta3" topic
15:57:51 <yorick> he doesn't get its a bug that should be fixed long before
15:58:02 <yorick> but because of some reason...wasn't
15:58:26 <dih> there are people that dont get that it's not a bug because of newgrf indus closing down
15:58:49 <dih> DaleStan could sing a song of that thread
15:59:30 <DaleStan> I wasn't aware that flamethrowers were usually very melodic.
16:18:43 <Belugas> [11:03] <dih> there are people that dont get that it's not a bug because of newgrf indus closing down <-- yeah... and there are quite stuborn it. Wanting to have their views been the official one, without even considering what's happening nor why
16:18:57 <Belugas> and of course, not willing to work on proposed solutions :P
16:19:56 <dih> dont you just need an @kick command for the channel 'earth' ?
16:20:31 <DaleStan> Ah. I thought that there was just something that made posts with NFO-related words/information fail to appear to the majority of the forum users.
16:20:36 <Belugas> i would be sanctionned for abusing it
16:21:07 <Belugas> indeed DaleStan, indeed :)
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16:50:15 <fjb> Why do not all foundations get replaced by a foundation replacement grf?
16:50:52 <hylje> foundation replacements might not have diagonal foundations
16:51:35 <Eddi|zuHause3> what's an "afoon"?
16:52:21 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause3: I guess "good AFter nOON"
16:52:54 <Belugas> i'm guessing fjb says "morning" by shredding the word in smaller pieces. therefor, afternoon folowed the same pattern ;)
16:52:57 <fjb> The tile with the houses in the upper middel of the picture.
16:53:42 <fjb> Belugas: "Moin" is a nothern german greeting, used every time of a day.
16:54:37 <fjb> Belugas: But I think it is somehow related to the english word "morning".
16:54:42 <yorick> "But the grf is not complete. The first 14 foundations are missing. They are not loaded by an Action5 but by an ActionA."
16:55:06 <fjb> frosch123: Thank you. That explains it.
16:55:20 <yorick> "Foundations with walls at both north edges must be replaced by an ActionA."
16:55:38 <frosch123> no need to quote everything
16:56:05 <Belugas> fjb, as i am not from nothern germany, i cannot guess
16:56:42 <fjb> Belugas: I know you are not from germany, but I thought you were good at guessing. :-)
16:56:48 <Belugas> like i could say "Salut la gang" and pretty much nobody would understand...
16:57:04 <fjb> Belugas: I would understand it.
16:57:22 <Belugas> well.. i guessed, but not came up with the right meaning ;)
16:57:46 <fjb> Yes, I know enough french.
16:59:24 <fjb> Are the missing foundation replacement sprites in the grf and only wrong coded or are the whole sprites missung?
16:59:39 <glx> Belugas: expression from your side only ;)
17:01:09 <frosch123> missing, but you can construct them from the other sprites, or use the ones of an old release, if you have some spare time :)
17:02:38 <fjb> frosch123: Thank you. Sounds not hard to fix it.
17:07:38 *** dih is now known as dih|away
17:08:48 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: belugas * r11961 /trunk/src/ (map.cpp map_func.h newgrf.cpp): -Feature[newGRF]: Add support for Action 0D, var 13: informations about current map size.
17:09:03 <frosch123> Arghh! grf2html is outdated!
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17:10:55 <DaleStan> But it's not supported in TTDPatch ...
17:14:07 <fjb> DaleStan: So OpenTTD at least invented one thing that MB didn't invent.
17:15:33 <DaleStan> Well, MB doesn't do much that cares about the map size.
17:16:48 <fjb> But he invented everything. At least he likes to tell that. :-)
17:17:04 <Belugas> doing the doc as we speak, DaleStan
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17:30:28 <Phoenix_the_II> ppl still play with ttdpatch?
17:30:40 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: smatz * r11962 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Cleanup: OPF is no longer used to update signals
17:30:48 <DaleStan> Um... That was rhetorical, right?
17:31:29 <yorick> but SmatZ, what is used now?
17:31:35 <Phoenix_the_II> DaleStan, half-half :p
17:31:37 * AntB started playing patch about 2 weeks ago :P
17:31:49 <SmatZ> yorick: there is signal.cpp since 11802
17:31:56 <SmatZ> with faster and cleaner code...
17:32:08 <SmatZ> no new functionality though
17:32:10 <Phoenix_the_II> i mean, i don't know the difference anymore between openttd and ttdpatch
17:32:18 <Phoenix_the_II> since im used to openttd now
17:33:20 *** yorick is now known as Yorick|AFK
17:33:57 <Belugas> Phoenix_the_II, that does not mean ttdp is dead. There are a lot of people who prefer ttdp over ottd
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17:34:22 <Phoenix_the_II> but doesnt openttd have the advantages right now?
17:35:54 *** Diabolic-Angel has quit IRC
17:36:09 <Belugas> 1) there is no competition
17:36:20 <Belugas> 2) there are stuff that is better handled by ttdp
17:36:30 <Belugas> 3) there are different features in both
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17:36:59 <Belugas> more, but it's enough for the point
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17:37:39 <DaleStan> PBS is a big sticking point for people considering the switch to Open.
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17:40:49 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: belugas * r11963 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix(r11961): Forgot to specify the meaning of the magical 6 substraction
17:41:12 <Belugas> only 15 minutes left :(
17:42:02 <DaleStan> !? OHFSCK!! Missed that -6 in the patch, and therefore in Patch.
17:43:16 <Belugas> i forgot to mention it in the doc, yes
17:43:20 <Belugas> it has been fixed now
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17:43:47 <DaleStan> I looked at your patch, didn't see the -6, and coded Patch to report 01888810, not 01222204
17:44:46 <Belugas> when you asked me to confirm, i mentally calculated it without the -6, since i was (and still) am in a hurry
17:45:14 <Belugas> mention me if you wish in your commit log :(
17:45:27 <Belugas> that will eventually teach me
17:46:01 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r11964 /trunk/src/newgrf_commons.cpp: -Fix [FS#1685]: Tropic zone data was returned incorrectly.
17:53:03 <Belugas> DaleStan is too good, not a single mention of my fault, taking all the blame ;)
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18:24:28 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: smatz * r11965 /trunk/src/pathfind.cpp: -Codechange: simplified tunnel/bridge code in TPFMode1
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18:28:27 <Sacro> yorick: capitalising a nick doesn't stop it from highlighting
18:49:07 <dih> [19:35] -yorick- some kicked JJ, so the logs weren't updated for a while
18:49:07 <dih> [19:36] -yorick- and one did that again
18:49:07 <dih> [19:37] -yorick- stop making fun of me while I'm not there!
18:49:15 <dih> i can do with my bot and in my channel as i wish
18:54:53 <Gonozal_VIII> that build and refit patch is great :D
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19:06:20 <yorick> Sacro, yorick: capitalising a nick doesn't stop it from highlighting, how do you mean?
19:06:42 <Sacro> [15:45] <yorick> *** SacrO was kicked by Bjarn1
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19:31:36 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: smatz * r11966 /trunk/src/pathfind.cpp:
19:31:36 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: -Fix: OPF was searching through depots and normal road stops
19:31:36 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: In effect, it also fixes old AI bugs like FS#1403 and FS#1506
19:33:07 <yorick> did they fix the search over other's tracks
19:34:58 <SmatZ> rail doesn't search over others' track
19:35:04 <SmatZ> for road it doesn't matter
19:38:16 <yorick> dunno if it changed meanwhile, but some time ago, signals on others' tracks were handled as if they were on the owner of the connected track
19:39:03 <Belugas> you made a bug report? have you checked since?
19:39:20 <yorick> I havent checked since
19:40:09 <SmatZ> yorick: it was there a very very long time ago
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19:42:18 <SmatZ> when there is a crossing
19:42:23 <SmatZ> OPF doesn't handle it well
19:43:06 <yorick> it's not in beta3 anymore
19:43:19 <yorick> when I reported it, it was "known"
19:43:45 <yorick> and "fixing would require rewriting of OPF"
19:44:42 <SmatZ> yeah, signals were propagated over crossing when the owner of tile next to crossing is different
19:46:45 <Belugas> irc == bug oblivion zone
19:47:09 <Belugas> ARRRHHHGG... a BUG!!!! Close your eyes, run away!!!
19:47:27 <Forked> yeah thats a good combination :)
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19:47:40 <Forked> lets all close our eyes and run in random directions =p
19:49:10 * yorick looks at the world from underneath the stone he hid in when dih got mad at him
19:49:29 <HUNRusty> has anyone some experience with suse 10.3 and scripts?
19:49:34 <yorick> I think I hid under it
19:49:43 <HUNRusty> i cant make my scripts work
19:49:58 * yorick closes eyes and accidentally slams head agains stone
19:50:03 <fjb> HUNRusty: Which shell are you using?
19:50:42 <yorick> I think the ##linux channel would suit better for that question
19:51:36 <HUNRusty> i run dedicated server from konsole
19:51:46 <fjb> HUNRusty: The thing that is supposed to execute that script.
19:52:33 <HUNRusty> on_server_connect doesnt work, i tried every place for scripts dir
19:52:34 <fjb> yorick: konsole can not execute scripts. It has to run a shell to do that.
19:52:58 <yorick> where did you install your data files?
19:53:31 <yorick> try /usr/share/openttd/scripts :)
19:53:52 <HUNRusty> i tried /usr/bin/scripts/
19:54:20 <HUNRusty> and takind into my home folder's openttd folder too
19:54:32 <yorick> where's your opentd.cfg?
19:55:19 <HUNRusty> "/home/rusty/.openttd/" but it doesnt work here
19:56:19 <yorick> you should know that there is no on_server_connect
19:57:28 <HUNRusty> i read about it at wiki.openttd
19:58:00 * yorick is going to paste big piece of txt
19:58:01 <yorick> OpenTTD supports scripts.
19:58:01 <yorick> - 'autoexec.scr' is executed on gamestart [all - use this for custom aliases per ex.]
19:58:02 <yorick> should be used to set client optimization settings:
19:58:02 <yorick> - 'on_client.scr' is executed when you join a server [all clients]
19:58:04 <yorick> should be used to set the servers port/ip and/or server optimization settings/patches:
19:58:04 <yorick> - 'pre_server.scr' is executed before the servers tcp stack is started [in-game only]
19:58:06 <yorick> - 'pre_dedicated.scr' is executed before the servers tcp stack is started [dedicated only]
19:58:06 <yorick> should be used to set the servers name, password and so on:
19:58:32 <yorick> - 'on_server.scr' is executed after starting a server [dedicated and in-game]
19:58:32 <yorick> - 'on_dedicated.scr' is additionally executed after starting a server [dedicated only]
19:58:32 <yorick> For examples how a script can look, check the .example examples.
19:58:38 <HUNRusty> on_server_connect.scr - This script will be executed by the server whenever a client connects (usefull for motd)
19:58:52 <yorick> executed BY the server
19:59:01 <HUNRusty> yes, and im the server
19:59:20 <yorick> it only scans on starting ottd
20:00:29 <peter1138> .openttd/scripts/on_server_connect.scr should work
20:01:10 <yorick> sure you restarted ottd?
20:01:27 <HUNRusty> yes, i did it many times
20:02:42 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: smatz * r11967 /trunk/src/pathfind.cpp: -Fix (r1400): MP_ROAD can have railbits too - OPF searching over rail of diffent owner behind crossing
20:02:43 <yorick> its dedicated only, isn't it?
20:03:26 <SmatZ> yorick: I was going to fix that anyway :)
20:03:42 <Eddi|zuHause3> who uses OPF anyway?
20:04:01 <LA[lord]> ahh... I'm getting a bit wicked because of being on tt-forums... Before, when I saw DaleStan answering exactly the question, but not what the asker wanted, I have tried to interrupt.. but now I laugh when a somebody again fails to get the answer.. Although only if the answerer wasn't rude.
20:04:05 <yorick> signals-untill short ago
20:04:06 <Eddi|zuHause3> who uses AI anyway?
20:04:29 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause3: it was used to propagate signals until r11802, now it is used by old AI, ships, aircrafts... depends on patch settings
20:04:49 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause3: many people
20:05:22 <yorick> I think NTP and NPF aren't used
20:06:23 <SmatZ> yorick: NTP is used by trains instead of OPF (though it is buggy a lot :-x, NPF is used for example on DS port :)
20:06:49 <peter1138> aircraft do not use pathfinding
20:06:56 <peter1138> it's a to b for them
20:07:02 <SpComb> they just fly around randomly until they happen to fly close enough to an airport
20:07:14 <yorick> remove the "Enable YAPF for aircrast" patch setting then
20:07:23 <SmatZ> well, aircraft do not use pathfinder :)
20:07:38 <SpComb> "straight line" is still a pathfinder
20:07:50 <SmatZ> yorick: there is not such an option
20:07:56 <SmatZ> SpComb: you saved me :)
20:08:24 <SpComb> actually, planes only fly in the same eight directions as trains go, so they don't even go in straight lines
20:08:48 <yorick> but NTP could be removed
20:09:03 <peter1138> i love their 180° instant turns :o
20:09:04 <yorick> YAPF could easily replace it
20:09:33 <SmatZ> peter1138: wasn't that fixed?
20:09:36 <yorick> I've seen them making a 240degree turn, to the wrong way
20:09:57 <peter1138> SmatZ, worked around, really
20:10:41 <yorick> current way, you get users thinking NPF is better than YAPF
20:11:00 <yorick> "because YAPF works only for regions"
20:11:09 <yorick> NPF is used in the DS port
20:12:14 <Prof_Frink> peter1138! lessoldstuffthatsbeenreplacedbybetternewstuff!
20:13:05 <Eddi|zuHause3> you violatedd the rule
20:13:06 <yorick> no, it goes !peter1138 LessOldStuffThatsBeenReplacedByBetterNewStuff remove
20:13:23 <Eddi|zuHause3> and you have no idea, yorick
20:13:36 <yorick> you violateddi the rule?
20:13:51 <yorick> that's right, I have no idea
20:15:49 <Prof_Frink> yorick: Not all of us are bots
20:15:57 <DaleStan> I thought it was usually "new", not "less".
20:16:24 <Prof_Frink> I believe it's only SpComb that responds to ! commands
20:16:41 <yorick> Gonozal_VIII believes so
20:17:16 <Prof_Frink> DaleStan: So, "newgettingridofoldstuffthatsbeenreplacedbybetternewstuff"?
20:18:17 <Prof_Frink> "newrmspacedashrfspaceslash"
20:18:44 <yorick> Gonozal_VIII: you're saying I am a bot, right?
20:19:18 <Gonozal_VIII> of course you're a bot
20:20:14 * yorick is getting payed imaginary money by Prof_Frink
20:20:20 *** Diabolic-Angel has quit IRC
20:20:59 <yorick> my coder isn't perfect
20:21:22 <Prof_Frink> peter1138: No, the system service that does wages.
20:22:32 * yorick likes slapping people and randomly picks peter1138 to slap.
20:22:49 * Prof_Frink thinks yorick is from Essex
20:23:26 * yorick wonders why Prof_Frink thinks so
20:23:33 <Prof_Frink> You're a right slapper
20:24:16 * yorick slaps Sacro upside da head with a hairy goldfish
20:24:45 <Wolf01> noo, all the canals around the crop fields disappeared with the shores support :D
20:24:56 <yorick> he's calling me bleach blonde!
20:26:03 <yorick> atleast I have my nice hairy goldfish to slap people with
20:27:18 <yorick> you don't have my nice hairy goldfish :P
20:28:37 <Prof_Frink> "Hairy goldfish". I think I've found a new euphemism.
20:29:39 <yorick> hydrairc has some nice slapping quotes
20:29:51 <yorick> all packet within the /slap <person> command
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20:32:45 <yorick> how many personalitys do you have?
20:33:18 <DJNekkid> only one, at the time
20:34:13 <yorick> it seems that one part of you is not willing to accept you have a split personality
20:34:40 <DJNekkid> or shal i stop awsnering with 2 lines each time?
20:44:55 * yorick doesn't like called paranoid or annoying either
20:47:58 * SpComb demands a cookie from yorick
20:48:30 * yorick gives SpComb a cookie but demands him giving a paw first
20:52:13 <yorick> and its dih's fault! :-(
20:52:47 <yorick> he feels attacked too soon
20:52:50 <dih> hylje: i second that , yet without a smily
20:53:00 <dih> find yourself a wall to talk to
20:53:26 <dih> and you dont have to tell us everything you do
20:53:32 *** last_evolution2 has joined #openttd
20:54:12 <dih> you are worse than my 5 year old nephew
20:54:55 <dih> hey - at least i say openly what i sometimes think :-)
20:55:14 <dih> be happy at least someone tells you how you appear at times
20:57:07 <SpComb> peter1138: there's the source code, submit a patch
20:57:16 <SpComb> although I should probably take a look at julia sets
21:00:53 <SpComb> the best thing about fractals is how easy it is to distribute the rendering to a several processors
21:02:12 <Belugas> fractal map generation!
21:02:37 <Eddi|zuHause3> the british coast line is fractal
21:03:13 <SpComb> I was pondering that yesterday, drawing a line around the edge of a fractal
21:03:34 <SpComb> it would be a single contiguous line, but it would be infinitely long
21:05:35 <SpComb> the "inside" parts are quite different from the stuff more on the outside
21:08:51 <Gonozal_VIII> [22:02:37] Eddi|zuHause3: the british coast line is fractal <-- seen that video with the matches?
21:09:47 <Gonozal_VIII> where they put matches around the coastline on a map, and everytime they half the length, a lot more of them fits there
21:11:26 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
21:14:07 <hylje> Wolf01: nicely elaborate rivers
21:16:00 <SmatZ> 10 people downloading your image... :)
21:21:40 *** Wolf01 is now known as Wolf01|AWAY
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21:25:40 <Sareith> I have a problem I am playing ttd for years I bought a new comp
21:25:49 <Sareith> and I donno what to do
21:26:40 <Sareith> Do I have another choice
21:27:16 <Sareith> I am ready to work on it for hours and try to fix it
21:27:20 <Gonozal_VIII> didn't try on vista
21:27:53 <Sareith> I saw that vista version is 4.99 pound
21:28:16 <Sareith> If I cant do anything I will buy it
21:28:27 <Gonozal_VIII> heavy for such a small disk
21:29:34 <Gonozal_VIII> and... vista version of what?
21:30:04 <Sareith> Transport Tycoon Deluxe
21:30:04 <Sareith> Now Playable On Windows XP & Vista Instant Download Only 4.99!
21:30:27 <Sareith> ClassicGamingPresents.com/Classic
21:31:20 <Sareith> Maybe I can find someone who plays on vista
21:31:41 <Belugas> buyt i've heard it is faisable
21:31:58 <Gonozal_VIII> why are they allowed to sell ttd :S
21:32:18 <Sareith> It is writing on ttd forums
21:32:29 <Eddi|zuHause3> i would not trust people that sell "for download"
21:32:38 <peter1138> it is not legitimate
21:33:31 <Sareith> But I saw a topic the writer was writing about the chopping sound of ttd on vista :D
21:34:37 <Sareith> ye It shows there is version of it on vista
21:34:43 <Eddi|zuHause3> you don't need to buy openttd
21:34:54 <Sacro> Poster "Madurobob" said it was a statue "obviously built by an ancient civilisation that later departed Mars and settled Denmark".
21:35:04 <Gonozal_VIII> yes, openttd is free, you only need some files from any ttd version
21:37:17 <Sareith> My friend had arranged the folder in 2004 or 2005
21:37:27 <Sareith> and I forgot everything what to do
21:38:41 <Gonozal_VIII> i guess ttd won't work but openttd should
21:39:58 <Sareith> what is different between openttd and ttd
21:40:24 <Gonozal_VIII> more features, still in developement and it's free
21:41:03 <Eddi|zuHause3> and it runs under modern windows ;)
21:42:20 <Gonozal_VIII> lots and lots of trains
21:42:25 <Sareith> The latest stable version is 0.5.3, released on September 15th 2007.
21:42:33 <Sareith> If I just download this one
21:42:46 <Sareith> do I need a base download or something like that
21:42:51 <Gonozal_VIII> i would suggest 0.6 beta 3 or the nightlies
21:42:57 <Sareith> I ask if this just an expansion is or not
21:43:23 <Eddi|zuHause3> no, it's a full version, except you need the tr*.grf files from your original TTD cd
21:43:34 <Gonozal_VIII> read the readme :-)
21:43:40 <Eddi|zuHause3> and the sample.cat
21:44:15 <Ammler> you will find links to those files on the tt-forums...
21:44:50 <Gonozal_VIII> well.. if he's been playing ttd all the time, he should already have them
21:45:46 <Sareith> My friend opened some internet sites
21:46:01 <Sareith> He downloaded 3 4 things
21:46:17 <Ammler> so you haven't the files self?
21:47:06 <Ammler> there you find a thread with links to downloadable original files
21:47:29 <Gonozal_VIII> that's the cheapo version of a rail service vehicle?
21:47:59 <Eddi|zuHause3> Sareith: the real question is "how can the train [that this picture was taken from] be in the same signal block as the 'train' waiting in front of the signal?"
21:48:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> s/Sareith/Sacro
21:48:34 <Gonozal_VIII> or somebody clicked ignore signal and it'll crash any moment
21:48:43 <Eddi|zuHause3> damn you guys for having so similar nicks!
21:49:13 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause3: the "train" in front has rubber tyres, and would probably not trip the track circuit
21:50:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> Ammler: i really don't think that would convince the lawyers :p
21:50:23 <fjb> Yapf is too stupid to handle single track lines. :-(
21:50:38 <glx> Sareith: if you want to play the original, try with dosbox
21:50:49 <Gonozal_VIII> not really fjb... if you build it right, it works
21:51:04 <Gonozal_VIII> just don't place too many signals
21:51:10 <Ammler> fjb: never build signals on single tracks
21:52:04 <Eddi|zuHause3> YAPF is alright with single track, only the signalling is not properly capable of handling it
21:52:44 <Eddi|zuHause3> we need a train ordering patch
21:52:49 <Gonozal_VIII> would be much better, if you could build presignals that only count reachable extis, not those with 135 corners...
21:53:06 <Eddi|zuHause3> "wait at this waypoint until train X passed that waypoint"
21:54:29 <Eddi|zuHause3> or decently synchronised timetables
21:56:23 <Gonozal_VIII> with presignals that ignore 135 corner exits, you could place combo signals at the double track parts of the single track
21:56:40 <Ammler> Sareith: did you try my links?
21:57:03 <Gonozal_VIII> then it won't lock
22:03:12 <fjb> Yapf has a problem on single tracks that are more than a simple point to point connection. You need signals if the connection is betwenn more than two points.
22:04:27 <fjb> Ignored 135° turns would get all the priority optimizers mad...
22:04:49 <Gonozal_VIII> they can still use 90
22:05:37 <fjb> That would get the optimizing 90° turn lovers mad...
22:06:27 <fjb> The poeple who like to build 90° turns and try to make priority lines. :-)
22:06:35 <Gonozal_VIII> you think there are people that do that?
22:06:54 <Gonozal_VIII> trains slow down to a crawl on 90 corners, why would a priority make sense there?
22:07:17 <fjb> Don't know. Maybe not the same line, but at least in the same game.
22:07:34 <Gonozal_VIII> then it doesn't matter
22:08:43 <Gonozal_VIII> pathfinder should take care of things, that trains don't drive along the priority lines
22:08:43 <fjb> How? Will you make that an option for each signal? I thought about a game wide option, or really fix that singnal bug and break all the priority lines. :-)
22:09:16 <fjb> Maybe the new PBS will fix most of that problems.
22:09:49 <Gonozal_VIII> priority with pbs is difficult
22:10:08 <fjb> Priority with PBS is automatic in some way.
22:10:23 <hylje> Gonozal_VIII: priority is done through inaccessible presignal blocks
22:10:25 <Gonozal_VIII> random priority...
22:10:55 <fjb> hylje: That will not work with the new PBS.
22:11:01 <Gonozal_VIII> i know that hylje
22:11:47 <Gonozal_VIII> we were talking about people who want 90 corners and priority lines, if 135 corners would be ignored by presignals
22:12:08 <fjb> The bad thing about yapf not handling single track lines is that the trains get lost that way. And yapf is unable to get a lost train back on the route.
22:12:25 <Gonozal_VIII> lost? hmm strange
22:12:40 <Gonozal_VIII> red two way signal... drive anywhere
22:12:42 <Sareith> I did it thanks everyone
22:13:31 <fjb> Yes, when it can not enter the desired track (because of a red signal) it simply doesn't wait, it takes the next switch. And then that train is lost.
22:14:00 <fjb> Gonozal_VIII: Yes. Drive anywhere.
22:14:00 <Gonozal_VIII> try using one way tracks at the crossings
22:14:27 <fjb> Gonozal_VIII: That is the workaround, but not always easy.
22:14:31 <hylje> fjb: i believe yapf has an option for that
22:15:06 <Gonozal_VIII> i personally like that, it lets you direct trains into waiting depots or loops
22:15:11 <fjb> And a lost train even doesn't find a free platform at a station, it just drives to the next platform, if free or not.
22:15:11 <Ammler> don't tell anyone, you the it from me :-P
22:15:44 <fjb> hylje: I didn't find that option. I thought I did, but it didn't help.
22:15:50 <Gonozal_VIII> fjb, don't let lost trains drive through stations, provide ways back
22:16:00 <fjb> Ammler: Don't tell anybody not to tell.
22:16:54 <fjb> Gonozal_VIII: I can not build 180° turn in front of any possible station. And even if I would, the lost train wouldn't take it.
22:17:39 <Ammler> I am wondering, why those guys can publish those files, but ottd can't include it....
22:17:41 <Gonozal_VIII> it wouldn't get lost at all because the path through that loop is detected
22:18:01 <Gonozal_VIII> they can't, it's illegal
22:18:31 <fjb> Ammler: That guys do something illegal. But that is their problem. That doesn't mean that OpenTTD can di something illegal too.
22:19:24 <fjb> Gonozal_VIII: As soon as a train is lost it doesn't route anymore. It randomly tries switches always prefering to go straight ahead.
22:19:44 <Gonozal_VIII> but it won't get lost to begin with
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22:20:32 <fjb> When I have the room to build 180° turns I can also bould full grown double track lines.
22:20:34 <Gonozal_VIII> you could also add depots to your crossings and make it that way, that trains with red exits enter the depot instead of going to the wrong exit
22:20:58 <fjb> Gonozal_VIII: Sadly depots don't help. I already tried that.
22:21:05 <Ammler> fjb: can you show me a screnn or even a save with "your problem"?
22:21:30 <Gonozal_VIII> if it comes out of the first one and exit is still red, it enters the 2nd
22:22:17 <fjb> Ammler: I have a savegame. Where can I put it?
22:23:54 <Ammler> or you could start a server with it :)
22:26:01 <fjb> That versoin already has some fixes to the single track lines.
22:26:30 <fjb> Add a few more trains and the problems get worse.
22:27:56 <Ammler> hmm, need to update trunk first :)
22:30:02 <fjb> Oh, I made it with r11937.
22:34:16 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: smatz * r11968 /trunk/ (19 files in 6 dirs): -Codechange: remove redundant FindLengthOfTunnel(), use GetTunnelBridgeLength() and/or GetOtherTunnelEnd() instead
22:34:30 <Gonozal_VIII> single track lines don't get enough attention.. track is so cheap that most people just start with double track even for only one or two trains
22:35:47 <fjb> Track isn't cheap when you start to play with the passenger destinations patch and a train set with high running costs.
22:36:15 <Gonozal_VIII> hmmm passenger destinations... isn't that still quite buggy?
22:36:16 <fjb> And it looks silly to flatten a mountain for two small trains.
22:36:56 <fjb> Gonozal_VIII: Yes, it is really buggy. But that didn't stop me from playing with it. It is just a game, isn't it? :-)
22:38:25 <fjb> And I wanted to build branch lines that look like branch lines. One track, a few stations and a few trains. And then some small lines between close industries early in the game when there are no capable trucks yet.
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22:43:11 <Gonozal_VIII> i'm currently experimenting with game start in 1875 :-) serbian railset has its first trains in 1873...
22:43:59 <Gonozal_VIII> i guess i'll change some ships to be available from then on...
22:44:21 <Gonozal_VIII> and maybe the av8 zeppelin
22:44:37 <Gonozal_VIII> from 1900 or something
22:46:03 <fjb> Oh, nice. But I guess it is a bit difficult to start that early.
22:46:27 <Gonozal_VIII> the first engine has a top speed of 16 km/h :-)
22:46:59 <fjb> Zeppeling before 1918 were not really usefull for transporting passengers or freight.
22:47:21 <Gonozal_VIII> The "Golden Age of Airships" began in July 1900 with the launch of the Luftschiff Zeppelin LZ1. :-)
22:47:25 <fjb> Gonozal_VIII: Build double tracks for that engine. .-)
22:48:03 <fjb> But LZ1 was only a demostration of the technology.
22:48:35 <Gonozal_VIII> doesn't really matter, i just want to spread the vehicles a bit better
22:50:39 <fjb> Why don't you stay with the railway that early? That were the golden times of railway, not airway. They are now.
22:52:14 <Gonozal_VIII> it's 25 years after gamestart... with daylength 30 ;-)
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22:53:06 <fjb> Much time to play with that cute little locomotive. You have much time to enjoy it's way to the next station.
22:53:38 <Gonozal_VIII> ford t is 12 years too late
22:53:50 <Gonozal_VIII> 1920 instead of 1908
22:55:18 <fjb> Yes, some people involved with TTDP are thinking that a gamestart befpre 1920 is not usefull so most sets are designed to start 1920.
22:56:27 <Prof_Frink> fjb: Trouble is, in TTD/Patch, dates before 1920 don't exist
22:56:55 <Gonozal_VIII> i'll change the first ships to 1873, like the first engine, the ford t to 1908 and the airship to 1906 :-)
22:57:27 <fjb> Prof_Frink: That was a design decision. The grf interface allows earlier dates.
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23:01:06 <fjb> MB stated that he was dicussing the date when a gamestart would be usufull with the guy who did the patch (I don't remember his name at the moment) and MB was strongly against an earlier gamestart.
23:01:34 <Gonozal_VIII> mb is strongly against a lot of things
23:02:58 <fjb> Lokks like he is strongly against everything that he doesn't need or wouldn't use in the game.
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23:04:04 <Gonozal_VIII> everybody has a different playing style
23:05:54 <peter1138> MB did try the earlier dates
23:06:02 <fjb> Yes. One reason for that few late engines in the DBset XL is that MB thinks games after 2010 are not usefull because the whole map is connected then anyway.
23:06:43 <fjb> Oh, did he? Mabe he was too impatient with the slow locomotives.
23:07:15 <peter1138> well, not, there was just the problem that it doesn't work with ttdpatch
23:07:24 <Gonozal_VIII> impossible to connect everything on a large map, even until 2100...
23:09:08 <fjb> Gonozal_VIII: MB only plays TTDP. He will change his mind when TTDP gets bigger maps.
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23:09:50 <Prof_Frink> But mb is not the only grffer
23:10:21 <Prof_Frink> creator-of-newgrfs
23:11:21 <peter1138> frankly, frank, i am not too keen on this projection of personal opinion on others, and i for one would appreciate less of it
23:11:39 <fjb> But he made the only middle european passenger stations set so far. And he made the only german railway set so far...
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23:16:05 <Gonozal_VIII> i've seen some other german stations on the forum, from somebody with * or star in the nick?... i forget names all the time^^
23:18:09 <Gonozal_VIII> * or star <-- both :D
23:22:59 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: smatz * r11969 /trunk/src/elrail.cpp: -Codechange: documentation update, there are no 'track bits under bridge' anymore
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