IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-01-19
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00:00:12 <Bjarni> OpenTTD on iPhone and iPod
00:00:12 <Sacro> there is a Bjarni with 1 commit
00:00:30 <Bjarni> iPod touch only but still
00:02:09 <Gonozal_VIII> who broke ammler?
00:02:15 <Sacro> Bjarni: 2 java commits :o
00:02:33 <Bjarni> wow... I'm the grand old man
00:03:06 <Bjarni> next is peter1138 with 2.1 years
00:03:23 <Bjarni> and then some people with less than two years
00:03:58 <Bjarni> <Sacro> Bjarni: 2 java commits :o <-- somebody wrote a midi player in Java
00:04:23 <Bjarni> and eventually I removed it because somebody else wrote one for quicktime
00:04:49 <Bjarni> the quicktime one is much faster and will not demand any libs at the end user
00:05:05 <Gonozal_VIII> it demands quicktime...
00:05:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> it says OpenTTD is worth 2 Mio $
00:05:16 <Bjarni> that's kind of mandatory on OSX
00:05:51 <Gonozal_VIII> i'll sell it :D who wants to buy?
00:06:11 <Gonozal_VIII> if i understand gnu right, i can
00:06:26 <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause2> it says OpenTTD is worth 2 Mio $ <-- where does it say that?
00:06:32 <Bjarni> I want to print and frame it
00:06:42 <Eddi|zuHause2> click on "report"
00:06:46 <glx> hmm when did I commit objective C stuff :/ ?
00:06:57 <Eddi|zuHause2> scroll own a little, on the right
00:06:58 <Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> if i understand gnu right, i can <-- nobody will pay that much without owning the rights to the code itself
00:07:15 <Gonozal_VIII> well... but i could
00:10:10 <Bjarni> A long source control history like this one shows that the project has enough merit to hold contributors's interest for a long time. It might indicate a mature and relatively bug-free code base, and can be a sign of an organized, dedicated development team.
00:10:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> there is java code in openttd?
00:11:02 <Bjarni> I added the midi player for OSX and killed it as soon as we had something better
00:13:13 <Bjarni> 2% objC... damn the cocoa video driver is big
00:14:02 <Bjarni> is there anything about Sacro that's political correct?
00:15:51 <Bjarni> I don't think that one will be on TV though
00:18:23 <Sacro> Limitation disturbs me very sprites. Goes it throw out limitation?
00:19:17 <Bjarni> 16,7% comment radio in C/C++
00:19:26 <Bjarni> isn't that pretty decent?
00:20:47 <Bjarni> looks kind of avg for the project as a whole
00:20:57 *** Wolf01|AWAY is now known as Wolf01
00:24:34 <usv> okay, maybe I'll post this to my distribution's bugzilla
00:25:35 <Bjarni> you are still looking at this issue... well I guess it's time for a bug report then
00:26:09 <Bjarni> hopefully they will close it with "you did this wrong. Look at this link on how to solve it" or something like that
00:26:53 <usv> thanks for not giving me the GTFO NOOB stuff :)
00:26:53 <Sacro> Bjarni: Limitation disturbs me very sprites. Goes it throw out limitation? D:
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00:34:32 <Gonozal_VIII> detecting a disturbance in the sprites i am
00:35:35 * SquireJames raises an eyebrow, Mr.Spock style
00:36:14 <Bjarni> De_Ghost: read the rules
00:36:20 <Bjarni> no unneeded youtube links
00:36:26 <Bjarni> that one is just stupid
00:36:55 <Gonozal_VIII> that qualifies it as needed then?
00:36:55 * Bjarni picks up his little black book and notes that De_Ghost has been warned
00:37:21 <Bjarni> it's the reason for being unneeded
00:37:29 <Bjarni> also it's completely off topic
00:38:56 <Sacro> yes, cos Bjarni has never posted an off-topic video of some japanese people playing tetris with themselves before
00:40:52 <Bjarni> because I declare what the topic is
00:41:13 <Bjarni> that's one of the benefits of being Bjarni
00:45:04 <Eddi|zuHause2> that's coming back to the "it's coming right for us!" loophole ;)
00:46:24 *** Sacro was kicked by Bjarni (stop spreading lies)
00:51:26 <SpComb> someone attempted to rickroll me earlier today
00:51:46 <SpComb> but I had flash/javascript disabled for youtube, so he failed
00:54:43 <Bjarni> Sacro: you failed biology big time
00:54:56 <Bjarni> specially if you got the same exam question as I did
00:55:23 <Bjarni> next ad spammer will be kicked
00:55:34 <Chrill> but this is orudge-approved :(
00:56:29 <SpComb> orudge has't spoken for a couple hours
00:57:02 <SpComb> entirely true, but it doesn't mean he approved you to spam about it to #openttd
00:57:08 <Bjarni> I need to see your written permission
00:57:19 <Bjarni> and copy paste or log outputs aren't good enough
00:57:30 * Chrill simply won't advertise it anymore here then
00:57:44 <Chrill> It's easier that way ;)
00:58:05 <Bjarni> orudge really told you to do this?
00:58:31 <Gussoh> Im looking for some help regarding newgrf. I would like to try some new types of industries and cargos but there seem to be se many dependencies. Are there any newgrf "presets" available?
00:58:34 *** Sacro was kicked by Bjarni (I will not listen to/watch obscene porn clips that you find online)
00:58:39 <SpComb> Chrill: it's distorting badly
00:58:43 <Chrill> Bjarni, he didn't TELL me to, but he wouldn't disapprove
00:58:51 <Gussoh> like a list of newgrf:s that will work together
00:58:58 <SpComb> Chrill: it sounds terrible
00:59:02 <Noldo> looks like I'm going to the hospital soon
00:59:58 <Chrill> SpComb, hope the sound will improve with next song
01:01:47 <Bjarni> Noldo: so you are going to be a father... nice
01:01:56 <Bjarni> well... I hope you are ;)
01:03:45 <Bjarni> I just closed it because it became annoying
01:04:13 <Chrill> the AGC things, improving sound massively, wouldn't work
01:04:18 <Chrill> but I got them runnin now so
01:06:26 <Bjarni> now I closed it because it sucks
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01:06:59 <Bjarni> might be good for that genre but totally not me
01:07:18 <Rubidium> Gussoh: there is no such list with presets
01:07:45 <Gussoh> Rubidium: ok. ill try to copy from another game then. thank you!
01:07:57 <murray> why don't we like ubuntu?
01:08:25 <Bjarni> Chrill: I hope you don't take this the wrong way... when it comes to what you appears to like to play I couldn't tell a masterpiece from a lawn mover
01:09:31 <Bjarni> ok I could... I can hear if the lawn mover is operating correctly but that's besides the point
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01:09:59 <Bjarni> jonisdead: what kind of name is that?
01:10:32 <jonisdead> the name jon was already taken :P
01:11:35 <jonisdead> plus as I mostly lurk it kinda suits me
01:12:07 <Bjarni> if you keep lurking nobody would notice the the nick fits
01:12:19 <Bjarni> and we can help you with that
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01:14:35 <Bjarni> like that would ever happen
01:17:36 <fjb> How does a company get a rating in a town it never had a station in?
01:18:05 <Chrill> built something/removed something nearby
01:18:18 <fjb> No, and the rating is "good".
01:18:34 <Chrill> You have been affecting something belonging to the town in one way or the other :P
01:18:43 <Chrill> perhaps by just building a road close to it
01:18:45 <fjb> I build some stations in a neighbouring town.
01:19:05 <Chrill> built a road from this town to another one?
01:19:28 <fjb> Hm, not that I'm aware of.
01:20:12 <Chrill> Well, perhaps those stations were close enough to still affect the rating, though only in a very minor way, thus rating remains at Good?
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01:20:43 <fjb> Don't know. But I don't mind if it stays "good". :-)
01:21:59 <fjb> Now I only have to decide where to build the next line and were to put the stations.
01:24:02 <Gonozal_VIII> that's the part that requires the most work^^
01:25:09 <Chrill> It's one thing deciding where, a whole other thing connecting it in a way that both looks realistic and IS functional :P
01:25:22 <fjb> It is easy. The line has to be cheap, no town should get angry and the line and the stations should be expandable in the future. Really easy... :-)
01:26:26 <fjb> Single track lines are not the most functional ones, I fear...
01:26:47 <Chrill> Well, to small British countryside villages, or minor communities, they are realistic
01:27:00 <Chrill> Such lines aren't in use nowadays perhaps
01:27:36 <Gonozal_VIII> i'm going to take a single track line home today
01:27:53 <fjb> Today the become more and more realistic again...
01:28:30 <Chrill> Gonozal_VIII, which is why I added perhaps, I was unsure ^^
01:29:50 <fjb> But I'm still in the glory days of railway, 1926.
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01:33:05 <SquireJames> I made the mistake of having my mainline go through what was once a small village
01:33:21 <Eddi|zuHause3> several tracks here are single track
01:33:25 <SquireJames> now, its ballooned to 35 000 people and I can't demolish enough to expand my station or lines
01:33:42 <SquireJames> so I am stuck with a 2 track line and a 2 track station
01:33:49 <Eddi|zuHause3> mainly because the russians took the second track 60 years ago
01:33:57 <Gonozal_VIII> 2 track line should be enough
01:34:31 <SpComb> Chrill: and now it's horribly compressed
01:34:40 <SpComb> as in, dynamic range compression
01:34:57 <Chrill> was that a good or bad change?
01:34:59 <fjb> Oh, that is bad. Two additinal platforms would be better.
01:35:13 <SquireJames> well Gonozal, it means my express are somewhat delayed when another stops in front of them
01:35:25 <SquireJames> and I havent any space to add any freight or local passenger platforms
01:35:28 <Eddi|zuHause3> you can get up ratings quite fast with good (frequent, new) service
01:35:34 <SquireJames> so that station is pretty SNAFU
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01:36:21 <fjb> I Once build a line through a town on top of one of the streets, a giant bridge through that town.
01:36:46 <Gonozal_VIII> use some trams to get some passengers to another station outside the town
01:37:35 <SquireJames> I do not currently ship any goods there anyway but, I could try an either leapfrog it outside or use trucks
01:38:05 <fjb> The passenger destinations patch is a great way to reduce the enormous amout of passengers you usually get. :-)
01:39:20 <Gonozal_VIII> trams are cool to cover the whole city without using station spread "cheating"
01:40:47 <fjb> Local passenger service has another advantage over that cheating, the town gets more serviced stations and grows faster.
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01:42:03 <SquireJames> yes thats the problem, VAST amounts of the buggers
01:42:05 <Gonozal_VIII> if two way transfers would work, you could transfer the passengers out at the station and spread them with the trams...
01:42:16 <Eddi|zuHause3> i didn't "cheat" station spread... i just doubled coverage radius ;)
01:42:56 <Gonozal_VIII> but they would just pick up the same passengers they just unloaded
01:43:23 <fjb> Gonozal_VIII: Try the passneger destinations patch. :-)
01:43:51 <Gonozal_VIII> can't patch, can't compile...
01:45:39 <fjb> Compiling is easy: ./configure; gmake :-)
01:45:59 <Gonozal_VIII> not on windows :P
01:46:39 <fjb> Will the ready made compiler package for Windows not do?
01:47:52 <SquireJames> I struggle with patches too
01:48:11 <SquireJames> the only one i ever got to work was the programmable waypoints, and then it would randomluy barf
01:48:29 <Gonozal_VIII> i tried buildottd but that only pops up compile failed without any explanation why
01:49:05 <fjb> That was the package I was thinking of.
01:50:14 <fjb> How does the official Windows binary get build?
01:50:56 <Gonozal_VIII> nightly builds? i don't know
01:52:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> nightlies are cross-compiled on linux, release builds are done with MSVC afaik (at least they used to be)
01:52:59 <Gonozal_VIII> some output why buildottd fails all the time would be nice..
01:53:24 <Eddi|zuHause3> tell that to the buildottd developer ;)
01:53:40 <SquireJames> I found that unless the patch is specificially made for a particular version of OTTD
01:53:48 <SquireJames> there is no flexibility
01:54:00 <Eddi|zuHause3> SquireJames: unrelated
01:54:01 <Gonozal_VIII> it doesn't build trunk without patch
01:54:30 <SquireJames> Then why when I try to build with the programmable waypoints on a different version does it fail
01:54:41 <SquireJames> because the patch is incompatible
01:54:51 <SquireJames> not BuildOTTDs problem but, the one we all experience
01:55:40 <Eddi|zuHause3> SquireJames: i mean unrelated to Gonozal_VIIIs problem
01:55:59 <fjb> You always have to adjust a patch to another version by hand.
01:56:09 <SquireJames> well i gathered that
01:56:17 <SquireJames> I am just nowhere near good enough to do that :)
01:56:41 <fjb> It is mostly comparing some lines of text. :-)
01:56:44 <Gonozal_VIII> it writes Ausgecheckt, Revision 11923.
01:57:15 <fjb> That is the version it got from the repository.
01:57:37 <SquireJames> sohow does one go about changing a patch to work with a new version
01:58:36 <Gonozal_VIII> after that ausgecheckt thing, it pops up compile failed but the log doesn't contain any reason
02:00:04 <fjb> Try to apply the patch. Most parts of the patch should work. It tell you what did not work. You then look where the original and the patch differ and adjust that by hand. (You have to add or delete some lines of text.)
02:00:52 <glx> or rewrite the failing part ;)
02:01:38 <Eddi|zuHause3> a lot of conflicts can be solved using tortoise merge
02:02:04 <SquireJames> just, don't know how to use it
02:02:39 <fjb> Rewriting that part is not for beginners... :-)
02:03:11 <glx> the easiest way is to patch the right rev
02:04:59 <Gonozal_VIII> buildottd only works with a patch?
02:05:31 <SquireJames> i thought she worked with a diff too
02:05:50 <glx> if buildottd is installed you can start msys and configure and compile "by hand"
02:06:32 <Sacro> hmm, what does buildottd contain?
02:06:53 <glx> a front-end to compile openttd using msys/mingw
02:08:03 <Gonozal_VIII> weeell... msys.bat opens some console titled mingw32... i don't know any commands so i can't do anything there
02:10:29 <glx> Gonozal_VIII: it's very easy
02:10:38 <glx> where do you want to put ottd source?
02:12:14 <Gonozal_VIII> C:\OpenTTD\source\ ?
02:13:07 <glx> svn co svn://svn.openttd.org/trunk source
02:16:59 <glx> anyway it's not hard to compile openttd when the tools are installed
02:17:19 <Gonozal_VIII> it seems to be compiling
02:18:24 <SquireJames> What patch are you working with Gonozal
02:18:42 <glx> the very important thing is NO SPACES IN SOURCE PATH
02:19:09 <Gonozal_VIII> didn't have any spaces
02:19:26 <Gonozal_VIII> can i put those lines into a .bat?
02:19:27 <Eddi|zuHause3> where does buildottd usually put the files?
02:20:20 <Gonozal_VIII> i don't know... i think it didn't put them anywhere
02:20:36 <Eddi|zuHause3> Gonozal_VIII: if you put the msys and mingw bin folders into path, you can run all mingw stuff from a windows cmd or bat file
02:21:08 <glx> Eddi|zuHause3: yes and that works very well :)
02:21:24 <glx> I configure openttd using "sh configure" in cmd
02:21:53 <Gonozal_VIII> wow i can compile, i'm the best
02:22:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> i am bestester!!1einself1
02:23:21 <glx> Gonozal_VIII: now you just need to do "svn up && make" in source dir to build latest trunk :)
02:24:19 <glx> but I don't know why buildottd failed for you
02:24:40 <fjb> Does that binary depend on special runtime libraries or does it run on any Windows without mingw installed?
02:25:02 <glx> mingw uses msvcrt so no problems
02:26:01 <glx> cygwin is bad because you always need its dll
02:26:29 <fjb> I know. I feared it would be the same with mingw.
02:27:54 <fjb> Oh, mingw runs on FreeBSD. So I can build Windows binaries without Windows.
02:28:25 <glx> yes using a cross-compiler
02:29:04 <fjb> mingw32-gcc-3.4.5.20060117.1_1,1
02:31:41 <Gonozal_VIII> svn is not recognized as an internal or external command
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02:35:19 <Gonozal_VIII> bah, tired, need sleep
02:35:29 *** Greysc[a]le is now known as Greyscale
02:35:32 <Gonozal_VIII> thanks and good night
02:36:52 <fjb> You can get subversion there.
02:37:26 <fjb> svn is the subversion client.
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02:48:59 <fjb> Is it possible to have the engine push the train?
02:50:07 <glx> <fjb> You can get subversion there. <-- he already has it, just not in windows path (but works from msys)
02:50:56 <glx> else he wouldn't have compile openttd ;)
02:52:09 <fjb> And how about the engine pushing a train? Is that also that easy? :-)
02:53:43 <glx> no it's not, because openttd needs an engine at train head
02:55:25 <fjb> Is that the reason why trains can not go backward like in the TTDP?
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04:46:11 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
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07:36:56 <LittleMikey> I need to speak to a OTTD dev about my title page competition, anyone know who I should contact?
07:39:28 <TinoDidriksen> Might want to wait till the afternoon. Not many people on at this godless hour.
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07:47:11 <HMage> ello everyone! I'm back! :D
07:49:57 <HMage> yes murray I'm gonna terrorize you all again! :D
07:59:46 <LittleMikey> Lol, what godless hour is this TinoDidriksen? Its 6:30 pm for me ^_^;
08:00:01 <TinoDidriksen> But it's 09 here.
08:00:07 <TinoDidriksen> And for most developers.
08:00:37 <TinoDidriksen> Yup, most are Europeans.
08:01:46 <murray> i've been up all night sitting on my school working with an assignment
08:01:56 <murray> and now i'm done! and going home! to SLEEP!
08:02:05 <murray> (just had to tell someone)
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08:31:09 <blathijs> murray: Don't you just love deadlines? :-)
08:31:22 <blathijs> murray: But, your school is actually open during the night?
08:32:12 <peter1138> maybe he was locked in
08:34:08 <TinoDidriksen> Could be a university. Open 24/7.
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09:18:44 <Wolf01> isn't newwater 0.6 fully supported yet?
09:29:15 <dih> silence... in every channel i joined... :-(
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10:31:24 <Desolator> kinda...quiet in here
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10:34:38 * dih slaps Desolator for breaking the silence :-P
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11:08:30 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r11924 /trunk/src/widgets/dropdown.cpp: -Codechange: All dropdowns now use the dropdown widget, so compatibility code can be removed
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11:22:49 <peter1138> modern depots in 1945 :o
11:23:05 <peter1138> too many signals :o
11:25:44 <dih> can tiles get hold of the state of one other diagonal tile?
11:25:57 <dih> i.e. a tile touching one of the 4 corners?
11:26:31 <dih> i am thinking of the shores in the newwater grf
11:26:42 <dih> peter1138: you looked at the screenshots of LA
11:27:10 <dih> any way some of those shores could be made neater?
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11:33:16 <Wolf01> peter, can you do something for the plant trees tool? i assume that i shouldn't clear the land when i want to plant trees and i have the clear land tool active :|
11:40:17 <madis[LA]> peter1138: these are Ameechers depots.. And they don't have timeline... Too many signals is because I always have signal every other tile. (another lesson from #coop :D ) And I'm too lazy to change that setting for MM
11:41:00 <Draakon-AWAY> LA: post 3 screen shots in one post not one ss per post
11:41:40 <peter1138> Ah, but Ameecher specifically designed them for 1960's onwards...
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11:42:45 <Draakon> peter: let the guy play them in 1920 or 1930 or whatever year
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11:52:45 <madis[LA]> Draakon: Posts edited :); peter1138: I'm not aiming this game to be as realistic as possible
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12:16:27 <Wolf01> nice, i got "unknown destination no longer accept food" after removing a station inside a town
12:16:35 <Wolf01> maybe the message system was busy
12:18:21 <Wolf01> i accepted food, now i don't need it
12:21:53 <SmatZ> it is morning when I wake up :-p
12:23:10 * hylje wonders if he should run around aimlessly
12:25:44 <hylje> if your language can imply that in one word
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13:11:23 <Rubidium> and I closed it because it's a duplicate of at least 3 other bugreports...
13:21:28 <peter1138> Rubidium, except the other reports bothered to find out what caused it ;)
13:22:04 <Rubidium> peter1138: two of the three others did
13:26:17 <madis[LA]> peter1138: I tried.. but I didn't find..
13:27:38 <madis[LA]> but maybe enlightnen me what ws the cause? or.. better which FlySpray tasks are the others?
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13:29:26 <madis[LA]> and sorrt for duplicating :D
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13:52:16 <madis[LA]> hmm... I told you that Yorick is a bot... :P
14:00:27 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11925 /trunk/src/ (industry_cmd.cpp town_cmd.cpp): -Fix (r122, r9867): loading old, pre savegame version 2, savegames.
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14:32:40 <Cosmo> is there an easier way to build huge stations?
14:32:58 <peter1138> increase max station spread
14:33:12 <Cosmo> where would i find that?
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14:34:52 <Cosmo> oh and give my thanks to the person who ports them to OSX
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15:29:00 <Desolator> do you know any cross-platform toolkit that can provide a layer abstract enough for an IDE? (which will deal mostly with XML & Lisp)
15:29:27 <Desolator> I need Windows 2000 & up, GNU/Linux & Mac OS X support
15:29:46 <Desolator> for the system APIs
15:29:56 <Desolator> for GUI, to edit files, etc...
15:30:03 <Desolator> I'm not sure if wxWidgets provides that
15:30:20 <Desolator> And I don't know which to pick from Qt & GTKmm
15:30:30 <Desolator> Qt is GPL 2 only, and I want to use GPL 3 :(
15:31:58 <Desolator> GTKmm, I'm not sure if it's installed by default in most Linux distros...and I want to keep everything nicely grouped, not like in C, all global (*points to GTK+*)
15:33:25 <Prof_Frink> Desolator: Yes, Qt4 was released under GPL2/3/$VERSION_ALLOWED_BY_TROLLTECH yesterday
15:33:44 <Desolator> haha "The latest beta is 0.6.0-beta3, released on January 16th 2007.", good typo :)
15:33:52 <Desolator> (though it's fixed now)
15:34:11 <Prof_Frink> That's not a typo, that's autopilot
15:41:40 <peter1138> So it's Brianetta's fault?
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16:04:28 <Gonozal_VIII> long industry name, long city name... problem
16:58:37 <madis[LA]> hmm.. any developer here? or anyone who knows? If I replace tunnels with a newgrf and make it so they would only appear in Toyland (action07)... They don't
16:58:57 <madis[LA]> I have toyland infrastructure almost coded, but it won't react on tunnel sprites
16:59:24 <madis[LA]> I think they have some other grfID, but does anyone know which?
17:00:19 <madis[LA]> in trg1r they tunnels start from 2365 sprite
17:01:17 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r11926 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Feature: Rivers. Graphics must be provided by NewGRF else rivers are drawn as canals. Rivers can currently only be placed with-in the scenario editor.
17:02:25 <Gonozal_VIII> i've seen rivers on patch screenshots...
17:02:46 <madis[LA]> peter, you have any idea about my problem
17:03:32 <peter1138> toyland tunnels? absolutely no idea
17:03:57 <madis[LA]> everything else works :(
17:04:36 <hylje> peter1138: rivers don't flood at all?
17:04:54 <Gonozal_VIII> can't find toyland tunnels in trg1r, they must be somewhere else
17:05:08 <peter1138> no, they're static, at least for the moment
17:05:15 <peter1138> pretty much eyecandy
17:05:28 <peter1138> but boats can go along them of course
17:05:30 <hylje> they are great nevertheless
17:05:34 <Gonozal_VIII> do they count as water for industry placement?
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17:06:13 <madis[LA]> Gonozal_VIII: The sprites are in trgtr.grf
17:06:16 <hylje> but what would be totally neat would be river depth and water throughput
17:06:30 <madis[LA]> but id SHOULD be the same then in normal tunnels
17:07:03 <madis[LA]> road sprites have same ID, rails have same ID
17:07:09 <madis[LA]> terrain has same ID
17:07:28 <madis[LA]> truck stops have same ID
17:07:31 <Gonozal_VIII> decode the grf and look
17:07:50 <madis[LA]> that is a grf not a newgrf...
17:08:09 <madis[LA]> so it's just a bunch of realsprites
17:08:23 <Gonozal_VIII> doesn't stop you from finding the id
17:08:30 <madis[LA]> I have decoded it and it's opened right now :!
17:08:46 <madis[LA]> ID is not written anywhere
17:08:58 <peter1138> hylje, go ahead and write that then. you can still use the same code for drawing it ;)
17:09:01 <Gonozal_VIII> it is, in the pcx
17:09:10 <madis[LA]> thats the sprite number
17:09:32 <Gonozal_VIII> that's different? hmm...
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17:09:50 <peter1138> Gonozal_VIII, for industry placement, no idea...
17:09:59 <peter1138> what industries go on water?
17:10:11 <madis[LA]> fishing boat on ECS
17:10:22 <hylje> could need to do more water stuff
17:10:27 <Gonozal_VIII> some ecs stuff like breweries or food processing want to be close to water
17:10:28 <madis[LA]> some tourist centresin ECS need to be near water
17:10:30 <hylje> to not make it broken in multiplayer
17:11:22 <hylje> e.g. redirecting a river to flood other players' stuff
17:11:50 <madis[LA]> Gonozal_VIII: Only in trg1r the sprite number is grfID
17:12:17 <madis[LA]> and if I don't add action07, then it changes things in all climates
17:15:00 <Gonozal_VIII> i never did any toyland grfing...
17:15:35 <hylje> peter1138: i take it rivers are simply terrain objects
17:15:52 <Gonozal_VIII> is tile type water?
17:16:03 <Gonozal_VIII> that should be enough for industry placement rules
17:16:59 <peter1138> locks and ship depots are tile type water too...
17:17:00 <madis[LA]> does anyone here have active TTDP install? ŚO he could test something for me.
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17:18:07 <madis[LA]> ok.. I'll try to get one tester in #tycoon channel at quakenet :)
17:18:28 <peter1138> won't find many there
17:18:47 <Gonozal_VIII> no need to go to quakenet madis
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17:23:54 <hylje> i think to prevent river (flooding) abuse
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17:24:02 <hylje> ottd needs terrain hardness
17:24:11 <hylje> (and by extension bedrock, too)
17:25:40 <hylje> digging an alternative route for the river should be expensive and blocking the current should be hard
17:25:59 <hylje> "raised" land is soft, and water can break it easily
17:26:49 <UnderBuilder> one question... will be possible to code more inclinated slopes in openttd or that will be too hard?
17:27:13 <hylje> it'd involve breaking most all GRF that deals with terrain
17:28:22 <orudge> [17:27:06] <madis[LA]> my god, how difficult it is to get help in #tycoon channel... <-- I would say that was perhaps a bit uncalled for. Evidently, there was nobody at the time who could test your GRF or whatever, doesn't mean that's always the case
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17:28:33 <orudge> remember also that #tycoon is a generally quieter channel than #openttd
17:28:40 <Digitalfox> This river stuff maybe Lord and Zephris could support it in new terrain :\
17:29:04 <GoneWacko> [18:28:26] <orudge> remember also that #tycoon is a generally quieter channel than #openttd
17:29:04 <GoneWacko> that's hardly true is it? D:
17:29:04 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge
17:29:05 <madis[LA]> digitalFox, we think about it :)
17:29:15 <orudge> at least in number of lurkers
17:29:20 <orudge> and actual on-topic discussion
17:29:54 <GoneWacko> pfft, on-topic discussion is over-rated :(
17:33:05 <Gonozal_VIII> for my taste those river graphics have too many stones at the slopes
17:33:15 <Gonozal_VIII> ships could never use that
17:33:33 <Wolf01> ships can't use them anyway
17:33:37 <peter1138> they're not supposed to use them
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17:35:07 <Gonozal_VIII> sorry for my stupid comments without testing first^^
17:35:29 <Wolf01> i don't like so much the locks instead, the ships should wait in the middle of the lock instead of travel as many fast as posible through it
17:35:45 <Gonozal_VIII> yes, locks would need some fixing
17:36:20 <Gonozal_VIII> ship goes in, gate closes, water rises, other gate opens, ship leaves :-)
17:38:13 <Wolf01> read: "only one ship can travel in one tile per time"
17:38:53 <Gonozal_VIII> yes... some collision detection like rvs
17:39:23 <Wolf01> RV needs more collision detect too
17:40:05 <Gonozal_VIII> train collision detection isn't perfect either
17:40:35 <Gonozal_VIII> there should be a difference between slow and fast crash
17:41:12 <Gonozal_VIII> and every train that kills a rv is completely unharmed? baad
17:41:38 <Gonozal_VIII> no... breakdowns... only partial destroyed.. like that
17:41:52 <hylje> lethal and nonlethal hitpoints
17:42:01 <Prof_Frink> Gonozal_VIII: And every rv that crashes into a stationary train at 2mph is destroyed
17:42:04 <hylje> when lethal go to zero, destruction
17:42:10 <hylje> when nonlethal goes to zero, breakdown
17:42:42 <hylje> after breakdown is fixed, nonlethal goes back to half (depot service fills it full)
17:42:50 <Gonozal_VIII> doesn't need hitpoints for that.. speed would be enough
17:43:30 <Gonozal_VIII> could lower the reliability
17:43:36 <Eddi|zuHause3> it'd suffice to reduce reliability
17:43:48 <Eddi|zuHause3> that's some kind of "hitpoints" already
17:43:50 <Gonozal_VIII> work with existing stuff instead of new hitpoints
17:44:02 <hylje> fine, rename hitpoints to reliability :)
17:44:10 <Prof_Frink> How about: every collision "ages" the train by (say) 5 years, so it needs replacing sooner
17:44:46 <hylje> is anyone aware of somebody doing any design for a landscape / river feature
17:45:16 <Eddi|zuHause3> boekabart was the last one to try rivers
17:45:39 <hylje> i'd like to scrape the docs (if any) for insight
17:45:47 <hylje> then the least i can do is to publish mine
17:45:50 <Eddi|zuHause3> the concept looked quite impressive, with varying water levels and stuff
17:45:56 <Gonozal_VIII> collision below speed x does nothing, below speed y it reduces reliability, above speed y some parts are destroyed
17:46:02 <peter1138> but he abandoned it :(
17:47:08 <Gonozal_VIII> if every train engine is destroyed, the remaining wagons are too... can't keep them without engine
17:47:36 <hylje> shunting would fix that
17:48:01 <Gonozal_VIII> yes, shunting would be nice
17:48:07 <Eddi|zuHause3> and horrible things happen if you hit a full tanker truck
17:48:32 <hylje> +1 for hitpoint-type reliability
17:48:36 <Eddi|zuHause3> (that was the second worst train accident in germany)
17:48:37 <Gonozal_VIII> every collision now looks like you hit a full tanker truck^^
17:49:15 <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, but it has the effect as if you hit a fly with the windshield
17:49:48 <Gonozal_VIII> yes... trains don't care about it at all
17:51:19 <Prof_Frink> A bit of fire never hurt anyone.
17:52:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> (PS: the worst train accident was the ICE derailing near Eschede)
17:52:52 <Eddi|zuHause3> (not to confuse with Enschede, that was where the fireworks factory blew up)
17:54:06 <Gonozal_VIII> not long ago i saw a n24 documentation about what happened with the ice in eschede
17:54:13 <Gonozal_VIII> that was a lot of bad luck
17:55:07 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's always a lot of bad luck
17:55:22 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's rarely that only one thing goes wrong
17:56:05 <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause3: Well, either bad luck or idiots.
17:56:39 <Gonozal_VIII> it happens a lot that only one thing goes wrong but they usually have safety measures for that
17:56:39 <Eddi|zuHause3> I think idiots could also count as bad luck ;)
17:57:03 <Eddi|zuHause3> Gonozal_VIII: yeah, that's what i mean
17:57:19 <Prof_Frink> No. Bad luck doesn't put you in the running for a Darwin
18:03:42 <Gonozal_VIII> what does ./configure do?
18:04:19 <hylje> boek's deepwater 5 is the latest and greatest in sealevel?
18:04:28 *** Wolf01 is now known as Wolf01|AWAY
18:06:06 <Gonozal_VIII> yay i've got rivers :D
18:06:27 <madis[LA]> ok.. at last I got TTDP installed... to see what? to see that the grf has to be faulty :(
18:08:02 *** tneo is now known as Guest3676
18:09:48 <yorick> what's the deepwater link
18:10:06 <Eddi|zuHause3> Gonozal_VIII: ./configure detects what kind of system you use, then it searches which libraries you have installed etc.
18:10:21 <Gonozal_VIII> so i only need that once?
18:11:03 <Eddi|zuHause3> Gonozal_VIII: yeah, usually once is enough
18:11:08 <Gonozal_VIII> i've made a file update.bat now, containing:
18:11:09 <Gonozal_VIII> cd C:\OpenTTD\source
18:11:09 <Gonozal_VIII> copy C:\OpenTTD\openttd.exe C:\OpenTTD\old\
18:11:11 <Gonozal_VIII> copy C:\OpenTTD\lang\english.lng C:\OpenTTD\old\lang\
18:11:11 <Gonozal_VIII> copy C:\OpenTTD\lang\german.lng C:\OpenTTD\old\lang\
18:11:13 <Gonozal_VIII> copy C:\OpenTTD\data\chars.grf C:\OpenTTD\old\data\
18:11:13 <Gonozal_VIII> copy C:\OpenTTD\data\openttdw.grf C:\OpenTTD\old\data\
18:11:15 <Gonozal_VIII> copy C:\OpenTTD\source\bin\openttd.exe C:\OpenTTD\
18:11:15 <Gonozal_VIII> copy C:\OpenTTD\source\bin\lang\english.lng C:\OpenTTD\lang\
18:11:17 <Gonozal_VIII> copy C:\OpenTTD\source\bin\lang\german.lng C:\OpenTTD\lang\
18:11:17 <Gonozal_VIII> copy C:\OpenTTD\source\bin\data\chars.grf C:\OpenTTD\data\
18:11:19 <Gonozal_VIII> copy C:\OpenTTD\source\bin\data\openttdw.grf C:\OpenTTD\data\
18:11:23 <Gonozal_VIII> wow that looks bigger here than in the file
18:11:46 <Ammler> Gonozal_VIII: pastebin.com
18:12:36 <Eddi|zuHause3> err... what is this "old" supposed to do?
18:12:54 <Eddi|zuHause3> AFTER you did make?
18:13:11 <yorick> I thpught it would be going to \objs\release
18:13:28 <Gonozal_VIII> doesn't matter if before or after?
18:14:00 <Gonozal_VIII> hmmm there are files in release too...
18:14:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> it doesn't matter if you overwrite the old stuff and then backup the old stuff?
18:14:20 <Gonozal_VIII> it overwrites that?
18:14:36 <Gonozal_VIII> how does it know where to overwrite :S
18:14:37 <Eddi|zuHause3> make overwrites the binary
18:15:33 <SpComb> copy C:\OpenTTD\source\bin\openttd.exe C:\OpenTTD\
18:15:40 <Eddi|zuHause3> ah, you copy stuff out of the bin directory
18:15:44 <Eddi|zuHause3> why would you do that?
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18:16:04 <yorick> openttd.exe is not in \bin\
18:16:10 <Gonozal_VIII> because bin is so crowded?
18:16:16 <Eddi|zuHause3> ln -s openttd.exe source/bin/openttd.exe
18:16:32 <yorick> but the built one is in the release dir
18:16:36 <Eddi|zuHause3> err, other way round
18:16:44 <Eddi|zuHause3> ln -s source/bin/openttd.exe openttd.exe
18:16:51 <Gonozal_VIII> then what is the other one?
18:17:06 <Eddi|zuHause3> objs is a temporary dir
18:17:12 <yorick> but its there before make...
18:17:15 <Eddi|zuHause3> make copies the results from objs to bin
18:17:40 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's the last step make does
18:17:56 <Eddi|zuHause3> Gonozal_VIII: problem with copying is that you miss updates to the data dir
18:18:35 <Eddi|zuHause3> "ln -s source/bin/openttd.exe openttd.exe" creates a symbolic link instead
18:18:40 <Gonozal_VIII> like the merge of all those grfs to openttd.grf? does that happen often?
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18:20:04 <Eddi|zuHause3> how should i know what they think of next?
18:20:43 <Gonozal_VIII> i don't want to play from the source dir..
18:21:18 <yorick> what are you trying to do?
18:21:48 <Gonozal_VIII> update my gamedir to new revision
18:22:19 <Eddi|zuHause3> like i said, make a link
18:22:32 <Eddi|zuHause3> you don't have to update tha
18:23:01 <yorick> is it very hard to type "svn up" "configure" and "make"?
18:23:57 <Gonozal_VIII> and configure sometimes asks strange things like endianness or os...
18:24:13 <yorick> well... need some food
18:24:21 *** yorick is now known as Yorick|AFK
18:24:41 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r11927 /trunk/src/water_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r11926): unable to place canals in game
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18:26:40 <Gonozal_VIII> is there some random stuff in make?
18:26:52 <Gonozal_VIII> sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't
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18:29:13 <Gonozal_VIII> i ran my .bat... error
18:29:32 <Gonozal_VIII> ran it again, now i have r11927 here and seems to work
18:30:11 <madis[LA]> it shows everything right but tunnels...
18:31:27 <Eddi|zuHause3> an auto-reconnect hardly qualifies as "online"
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18:32:18 <madis[LA]> perhaps you are right...
18:33:06 <Eddi|zuHause3> there might be too little contrast between the white and the green
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18:33:32 <madis[LA]> I hoped so much :( :P but fortunatly someone has already downloaded the grf from the post and pcx.. So maybe someone has looked at the nfo already :)
18:34:01 <madis[LA]> and maybe someone CAN help me..
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18:34:42 <Gonozal_VIII> real snow is whiter... but brighter snow would hurt the eyes
18:34:55 <Gonozal_VIII> so i think it's good
18:35:20 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's not snow, it's toyland
18:36:11 <Gonozal_VIII> oh... not the inlined image
18:36:12 <madis[LA]> where did you get impression it's snow?
18:36:54 <Gonozal_VIII> you're really la? what's that madis?
18:37:26 <madis[LA]> that's my name... Johannes Madis Aasmäe :P
18:38:21 <Gonozal_VIII> i thought you were some other guy with la^^
18:38:56 <madis[LA]> and with same name format? currentname[previousname] ? :D
18:39:21 <madis[LA]> LA[lord] was because before it I was LordAzamath :P
18:39:43 <Gonozal_VIII> didn't realise that^^
18:39:46 <madis[LA]> but that's not important
18:40:46 <Eddi|zuHause3> i know people who change nicks like dresses
18:40:59 <madis[LA]> madis[LA[LordAzamath]] ? .
18:41:15 <Eddi|zuHause3> if they weren't authed and get +av, i'd never notice who they were ;)
18:41:30 <hylje> this dress is getting rather frayed i think
18:42:49 <madis[LA]> Eddi|zuHause3: I have had very little different names... LA[something here] madis[LA] or LordAzamath and for wwottdgd I was LordAzamath[Baltica] because I was in Baltica company
18:43:16 <Eddi|zuHause3> why would you do that? :p
18:43:28 <Gonozal_VIII> i've hat a looot of different nicks^^
18:43:53 <Gonozal_VIII> if you count the /nick somerandomkeys after i got disconnected and nickname already in use...
18:44:20 <Eddi|zuHause3> hm... who wants to take bets if i come back after a reboot?
18:44:34 <Gonozal_VIII> hehe, what did you do?
18:45:54 <Gonozal_VIII> then why reboot after update?
18:46:40 <Gonozal_VIII> i thought it could even do kernel updates without reboot
18:47:48 <Eddi|zuHause3> magic, sure, but it's most likely a quasi-reboot
18:48:48 <madis[LA]> [reboot to Mandriva]
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18:58:48 <hylje> ive put some thought at rivers
19:01:52 <yorick> - Water has depth, and it can fill holes in the ground. <-- is in the deepwater patch
19:02:22 <hylje> the third note is of interest
19:02:37 <yorick> I read from top to bottom
19:02:43 <yorick> not the other way around...
19:02:56 <hylje> you might want to read the whole thing before complaining :)
19:03:29 <yorick> it was something I had to complain about instantly
19:03:57 <SpComb> a fluid physics engine!
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19:04:31 <yorick> how much are the chances that is going to be included?
19:04:52 <SpComb> you could start playing a variant of the FSG in OpenTTD
19:05:32 <hylje> how else is one going to have water
19:05:38 <SpComb> yorick: falling sand game
19:06:19 <yorick> - 3D landscape, with each cube knowing its type <-- the dev's said it's not going to be included
19:07:24 <Eddi|zuHause3> Keine Verbindung zu Rechner a248.e.akamai.net."
19:07:50 <tneo> No connection with ... akamai.net
19:07:52 <Eddi|zuHause3> "no connection to <server>"
19:08:06 <SpComb> what's the GNAA got to do with akamai?
19:08:07 <Eddi|zuHause3> official download link for the ati drivers
19:08:39 <Eddi|zuHause3> and i can't seem to find any mirrors
19:08:54 <tneo> Can someone explain the different options for town growth? What is the influence of the settings: "Twice as fast" and "Size multiplier"
19:09:32 <yorick> is "Twice as fast" not clear enough?
19:09:40 <Eddi|zuHause3> tneo: a small number of towns get classified as "cities", which start out with bigger size and grow faster
19:10:00 <Eddi|zuHause3> these settings says how much faster and how much bigger
19:10:03 <yorick> that's the amount of towns that will get cities patch settings
19:10:37 <Maedhros> and size multiplier is how much bigger cities will be than normal towns at the start of the game
19:10:43 <tneo> Eddi|ZuHause3: So those settings only influence towns/ cities that already start out with larger populations?
19:19:15 * Maedhros is attempting to upgrade from FreeBSD 6 to 7, and crossing all available fingers
19:19:32 * yorick crosses fingers for you
19:19:48 <Eddi|zuHause3> why would they offer such a file and not provide any mirrors? damn...
19:19:55 * madis[LA] crosses yorick's fingers too
19:26:46 <yorick> one of my fingers broke
19:26:54 <yorick> madis crossed them too hard
19:27:30 <yorick> where can I download the river grf?
19:29:22 <yorick> are rivers placable during game?
19:30:28 <yorick> hmm... that would allow flooding to easily, now I think of it
19:30:51 <yorick> but there may be players that can patch openttd client so it can be flooded?
19:31:05 <peter1138> rivers currently don't
19:31:20 <Gonozal_VIII> they behave like canals
19:31:58 <Gonozal_VIII> but yes... players can patch the client to flood... but server won't
19:33:13 <Gonozal_VIII> or disable desync and play a completely different game than the server they are on^^
19:34:18 <yorick> tried that yesterday^^
19:34:36 <Gonozal_VIII> i know that you tried
19:34:44 <Gonozal_VIII> you can disable assertions too
19:34:59 <yorick> when pressed ignore-crashed
19:35:22 <peter1138> that's like having a car with a warning light
19:35:25 <Gonozal_VIII> ignor never workt with any assertions i encountered...
19:35:28 <peter1138> and trying to fix the problem by removing the bulb
19:35:46 <Gonozal_VIII> disabling desync is the same.
19:36:50 <yorick> hmm... I cant get the extra shores to work with newwater
19:37:14 <yorick> belugas said he fixed the problem with it
19:37:16 <Gonozal_VIII> that's why i use old shores with newwater
19:37:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> HAH... it works...
19:37:45 <Gonozal_VIII> your kernel thingy?
19:38:23 <Eddi|zuHause3> no, the ati download
19:38:48 <Eddi|zuHause3> i removed everything from above URL until "www2.ati.com"
19:39:02 <Gonozal_VIII> they should have a torrent for every download too...
19:39:14 <peter1138> hmm, i need a heightmap
19:39:27 <peter1138> cos original & tgp generated maps suck for river-type-structures
19:39:30 <yorick> can ships get throu height differences @canals?
19:39:37 <peter1138> tgp's better but...
19:40:10 <yorick> and I can't blow them up as a player of the scenario?
19:41:50 * yorick asks question after question after question after question
19:41:58 <Gonozal_VIII> what should they flood? everything on same level?
19:43:26 <yorick> as of the original patch
19:43:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> afaik boekabart had each water tile have an amount of water stored, if it floods into one direction, it adds water to that other tile, and removes from the current tile
19:43:50 <yorick> they flood everything on the same level and downwards
19:43:58 <Eddi|zuHause3> springs generate a certain amount of water each tileloop
19:44:30 <Gonozal_VIII> [20:40:09] yorick: and I can't blow them up as a player of the scenario? <-- you can
19:44:32 <Eddi|zuHause3> so rivers will reach a (dynamic) fixed point after some time
19:44:45 <Eddi|zuHause3> flowing "downwards" into the sea
19:44:52 <Gonozal_VIII> terraforming or dynamite removes them
19:45:03 <peter1138> all things that could be added
19:45:08 <yorick> but you cant build them again
19:45:24 <yorick> or they don't flood back
19:45:54 <Eddi|zuHause3> if you "block" rivers, they should search a new path
19:46:16 <hylje> i see you do totally ignore my attempt at some cohesion
19:47:03 <Eddi|zuHause3> hylje: i have not completely understood what you were trying to say there
19:47:32 <hylje> do you imply i should use Simple English?
19:48:59 <Eddi|zuHause3> you said something about you want to save how "solid" the underground is
19:49:08 <Gonozal_VIII> kiss... keep it short and simple^^
19:49:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> and change terraforming/tunneling costs based on that
19:49:50 * yorick finds tab somewhere in browser
19:50:17 <Gonozal_VIII> sounds good but maybe a bit too much...
19:50:39 <hylje> yes. i dont think natural-seeming rivers just need heterogenous land solid-ness
19:50:48 <hylje> oh, that came out wrong
19:50:51 <yorick> you know devs wont include 3d mode
19:50:58 <Gonozal_VIII> flooding without new tile types should be enough for the moment
19:51:30 <yorick> flooding downwards and on same level
19:52:13 <Gonozal_VIII> i think water tiles have some bits free... a system with water sources and a water counter like idde said could be nice
19:53:05 <hylje> just the amount of water, the direction of the flow (if any)
19:53:47 <Gonozal_VIII> i don't mean storing the source everywhere, but some tiles that are sources
19:54:02 <hylje> water sources are special tiles
19:54:22 <Gonozal_VIII> yes, that's what i meant
19:56:12 <Gonozal_VIII> spawns x units of water per tick until it's full then it floods neighbouring tiles and the counters there start to increase
19:56:25 <hylje> a tile is "dry" until it's full of water
19:56:49 <yorick> no, a tile is "wet" unless its clean of water
19:57:00 <Gonozal_VIII> yes, that's better i think
19:57:16 <Gonozal_VIII> no bits free to store the wetness in the other tiles
19:59:05 <hylje> a wet tile knows its 1. water volume 2. flow direction 3. flow strength(?)
19:59:08 <peter1138> water 'units' prefer to transfer to other water tiles
19:59:21 <peter1138> so until a all tiles are 'full' it won't flood
19:59:57 <peter1138> hmm, now i have to define springs :o
19:59:57 <yorick> but they can only transfer to tiles that are on the same level or beneath
20:00:32 <hylje> i'd make a river not able to flood plains
20:00:55 <Eddi|zuHause3> well _really_ big rivers might fill more than 1 height level, and then also spread to higher level neighbour tiles
20:01:04 <Gonozal_VIII> it will do that only if it has no way out
20:01:06 <hylje> plain flooding destroys everything
20:01:31 <hylje> players can initiate one by redirecting a river to a plain
20:01:38 <Eddi|zuHause3> rivers occasionally relocate their route by themselves
20:01:57 <Gonozal_VIII> players can mess up the game in many ways
20:01:59 <Eddi|zuHause3> it shouldn't fill the complete plain
20:02:09 <hylje> instead make a river, upon entering a plain, generate a fairly straight, slightly random route
20:02:16 <hylje> which is one tile lower than the plain is
20:02:25 <hylje> this preserves the plains
20:02:28 <yorick> wait-they will be flooding as much as needed to reach water
20:03:20 <Eddi|zuHause3> water should have a main float direction, and if that is blocked, or water level gets too high, it should flood to the other directions, too
20:03:27 <Gonozal_VIII> they always flood one tile at a time, most likely in the direction they already have
20:03:45 <Eddi|zuHause3> this would also make rivers wider at convergence points
20:04:25 <yorick> rivers can flood at water as much as they want
20:04:27 <hylje> we want to decide how plain flooding works
20:04:49 <yorick> but if they don't flood at water, they will get higher
20:04:51 <hylje> which is, i believe, very important here
20:04:58 <hylje> when a river reaches sea
20:05:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> that's what i mean, the river searches a route (main float direction), and when that route cannot take all the water, it searches more routes
20:05:09 <hylje> the water is "swallowed" there
20:05:11 <yorick> plain flooding-a river prefers to go into sea direction
20:05:13 <Gonozal_VIII> when it reaches sea, it will stop growing
20:05:24 <yorick> I was going to type that!
20:05:47 <Eddi|zuHause3> a river doesn't know where sea is, until it reaches it
20:06:06 <hylje> rivers should "dig" into the ground slowly
20:06:18 <yorick> there is a newindustries feature about finding water...
20:06:19 <Eddi|zuHause3> a river has one main direction... down
20:06:38 <Eddi|zuHause3> that is the only thing that drives a river, gravity
20:07:06 <Gonozal_VIII> that's difficult hylje... what if an older rivertile digs down and a newer doesn't... river floats upwards
20:07:09 <Eddi|zuHause3> the main problem with the "trivial" approach is when the river reaches a blocked valley
20:07:26 <hylje> the blocked valley fills up. tada, a lake.
20:07:28 <Gonozal_VIII> then it floods the whole valley
20:07:43 *** Wolf01|AWAY is now known as Wolf01
20:07:57 <hylje> a river could, of course, try to find a route through the mountain
20:07:58 <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, but a lake must still balance incoming and outgoing water
20:08:04 <hylje> when water level is high enough
20:08:05 <yorick> maybe springs could only be added in scenarios
20:08:11 <yorick> not during normal game generation
20:08:16 *** Belugas_Gone has joined #openttd
20:08:21 <Gonozal_VIII> it should just stop flooding if it can't find any more floodable tiles
20:08:40 <yorick> is that how a normal river works?
20:08:42 <Eddi|zuHause3> Gonozal_VIII: that means you can simply stop a river by filling it into a tiny hole
20:08:55 <Eddi|zuHause3> such a tiny hole should fill up, and flood forward
20:09:19 <Eddi|zuHause3> a lake to really stop a river should have a certain size ("Verdunstungsfläche")
20:09:20 <Gonozal_VIII> hmm but how? raise the land?
20:09:34 <hylje> what exactly happens when there is a largish hole the river ends up in?
20:10:38 <Gonozal_VIII> it could raise the lowest points of the lake... sediments... until it is high enough to find floodable tiles again
20:11:07 <yorick> but wouldn't that make the game too dynamic?
20:11:09 <Eddi|zuHause3> boekabart did it by having real water levels on a tile (in pixels), and if water height reaches 8, it can flood higher level tiles
20:11:15 <hylje> yorick: it can be very slow
20:11:26 <hylje> a very neat way to do that would to make a river slowly dig through the earth, that earth ending up in the next lake
20:12:21 <Gonozal_VIII> multiple water levels would be nice... but that would require a lot of sprites
20:12:52 <hylje> how would a lake break out upon filling up?
20:12:54 <Eddi|zuHause3> but i think primitive water height gives problems with plains, because it will always flood in all directions
20:12:55 <Gonozal_VIII> the shores.. water could probably the same with different offset
20:13:03 <Eddi|zuHause3> so water could start out at level -4
20:13:09 <hylje> Eddi|zuHause3: this i wrote up:
20:13:15 <hylje> Upon reaching a plain (a flat area), a river continues towards its flow direction creating a canyon one level lower than the plain.
20:13:28 <Eddi|zuHause3> meaning it has 4 water levels until it starts to flood sidewards
20:13:44 <yorick> but the river must become wider with the time
20:13:59 <Eddi|zuHause3> canyon might not be the best idea, because that needs a width of 3...
20:14:09 <hylje> the mechanics of wideness and such isn't too important now
20:14:11 <Gonozal_VIII> it won't if its only water source is a spring
20:14:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> and you have problems if the water flows at the edge of a mountain
20:14:25 <hylje> Eddi|zuHause3: well is that not preferrable to flooding the whole plain?
20:14:32 <Eddi|zuHause3> you have to lower half the mountain as well
20:14:54 <Gonozal_VIII> it won't flood the whole plain if it has a way out
20:15:06 <hylje> there isn't a way out when the water first arrives there
20:15:07 <Eddi|zuHause3> like i said, have default water level of -4 (= half a tile lower), so you have a river bed of 1 tile width, without changing landscape
20:15:16 <hylje> the river terraforming logic would of course prefer longer routes to avoid "expensive" terraforming
20:15:48 <hylje> because even water is lazy
20:16:01 <hylje> Eddi|zuHause3: do elaborate
20:16:02 <yorick> we need a seperate pathfinder for water
20:16:22 <Eddi|zuHause3> the river bed is -4 pixels below the flat plain
20:16:35 <Eddi|zuHause3> if more water flows in, it builds up until level 0
20:16:50 <hylje> yes, i had that in mind but couldn't make words out of it
20:17:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> if you reach level 0, you can flood tiles other than the flow direction
20:17:35 <Eddi|zuHause3> if you reach level 4 (= valley is completely filled), you can flood an upwards slope, creating a new -4 riverbed
20:18:09 <Gonozal_VIII> sounds good... but how would that look?
20:18:17 <Eddi|zuHause3> big lakes might loose water levels by other means than floating, to have rivers end in lakes
20:18:52 <hylje> i think we can proceed to making a patch only when we know what exactly we want from it
20:19:36 <yorick> any dev's to say what you think about it?
20:19:41 <hylje> Upon ending up in a large hole in the landscape, the water floods the hole, forming a lake. Lakes that become large enough without a way out become "black holes" for water.
20:20:22 <Eddi|zuHause3> like i said, really big lakes could end up as black holes, but small lakes shouldn't
20:20:25 <Gonozal_VIII> large enough as in x tiles per connected spring?
20:21:00 <Eddi|zuHause3> you could have a small random chance of decreasing a water level
20:21:00 <hylje> x tiles per inbound flow units
20:21:02 <Prof_Frink> hylje: When calculating flow, have each tile "lose" a percentage of the water that goes into it
20:21:04 <yorick> water tiles can take an endless amount of water
20:21:10 <Eddi|zuHause3> without adding that water level to the neighbour tile
20:21:33 <hylje> Prof_Frink: i've been thinking of "flow units" without much concrete concept behind them, thanks
20:21:33 <Gonozal_VIII> only level 0 water is endless
20:22:25 <Jortuny> this is probably a stupid question, but is there anything special you need to do to get a ship to load oil at an oilfield? i have a ship, refit for oil, waiting at the oilfield, which produces quite a bit, but it never loads :(
20:22:49 <Eddi|zuHause3> "flow" means "take x water levels from tile, and put x water levels on the next tile"
20:23:03 <hylje> the next tile = the tile to the direction of the flow
20:23:47 <Gonozal_VIII> with a small random
20:23:55 <Gonozal_VIII> only straight would be boring
20:24:03 <hylje> bendy rivers are eye-candy
20:24:11 <Eddi|zuHause3> no, float direction is calculated randomly on the initial expansion
20:24:20 <Eddi|zuHause3> then it will stay constant (mostly)
20:24:37 <hylje> yes, non-flooding river tiles cannot randomly decide to flood
20:25:33 <Eddi|zuHause3> if a river tile expands, the next river tile takes over the direction of the last expansion, with a smaller random chance to change direction
20:26:01 <Gonozal_VIII> [21:24:03] hylje: bendy rivers are eye-candy :P
20:26:02 <Eddi|zuHause3> like 1/2 straight, 1/4 left, 1/4 right
20:26:17 <Gonozal_VIII> i wrote the same :P
20:26:20 <Eddi|zuHause3> (numbers to be tweaked)
20:26:26 <Gonozal_VIII> but of course i agree
20:26:29 <yorick> more like 3/4 straight 1/8 left 1/8 right
20:26:58 <Prof_Frink> Canals should have incresed 'capacity' over rivers as they're dredged
20:27:17 <Gonozal_VIII> canals don't flood
20:28:01 <Gonozal_VIII> hmmm or do they...
20:28:02 <Prof_Frink> Gonozal_VIII: Yeah, but you could replace a 2-square wide river with a 1-square canal
20:28:10 <Eddi|zuHause3> canals flood on the same conditions as upwatrds slopes
20:28:22 <Gonozal_VIII> with level 4 yes
20:28:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> so if the neighbour river reaches level +4
20:28:26 <Jortuny> no one knows what I'm being stupid about regarding oil rigs? :/
20:28:33 <Prof_Frink> Or increase drainage from a lake
20:28:37 <yorick> canals have special borders
20:28:40 <hylje> When a river tile expands to another tile, the claimed tile's flow direction can change from the original. Mostly though straight ahead (using the flow direction of the original): chances can be like 2/4 straight, 1/4 to left and right each.
20:28:57 <hylje> i'll save the new draft for some looks and corrections
20:29:30 <Gonozal_VIII> sorry jortuny, it should work like you described it, so your problem wasn't obvois with your description
20:30:43 <yorick> but if we have a 3-tile wide river, the front tiles have a chance to flood in al directions indepentedly
20:30:49 <Jortuny> Gonozal_VIII: ok, thanks, I guess I'll just have to figure it out :)... I don't have to send a helicopter there first or anything to 'claim' the rig, do I?
20:30:52 <Eddi|zuHause3> i'm still not fond of the canyon idea
20:31:08 <yorick> and we get rivers being split apart
20:31:10 <Gonozal_VIII> nope, no heli, ship is enough
20:31:22 <yorick> but set it to full load
20:31:33 <Jortuny> Gonozal_VIII: should the rig turn my livery color? or does it stay grey?
20:31:33 <hylje> yeah, that flatter way of doing it is probably better
20:31:41 <hylje> but i don't know how to put it clearly
20:31:53 <Jortuny> :( then I have no idea what's going on
20:32:15 <Gonozal_VIII> sure that the tanker is refitted to oil?
20:32:21 <Gonozal_VIII> not fuel oil or something?
20:32:28 <Jortuny> er, there's fuel oil?
20:32:56 <yorick> Gonozal: you're bringing unwanted trouble
20:33:08 <yorick> when talking about fuel oil to a newcomer
20:33:16 <Gonozal_VIII> i didn't break his tankers :P
20:33:29 <Jortuny> I'm sure its something stupid I'm doing, but I can't figure it out :/
20:33:42 <Jortuny> there aren't two stations at the rig, right? like a passenger and oil section?
20:33:55 <Gonozal_VIII> paste a screenshot of the orders and the rig and tanker and everything
20:34:03 <Jortuny> that's what I thought... ok, I'll take a screenshot
20:35:05 <hylje> when a river has several front tiles
20:35:35 <hylje> the first tile to expand spawns a new tile. because water bodies expand only when all tiles are full, the other front tiles cannot expand on their own
20:36:09 <yorick> k, if you say it isn't possible...
20:36:24 <yorick> but wouldn't the whole flow cycle take much CPU?
20:36:44 <hylje> existing rivers need no caring, really
20:36:52 <yorick> constantly having to edit the properties of a tile...
20:36:55 <Gonozal_VIII> how hard is it to detect a connected area of same tiletype?
20:37:10 <yorick> it's used in many grf's
20:37:37 <Eddi|zuHause3> yorick: tile editing is done on tile loops all the time
20:37:40 <Gonozal_VIII> then maybe store size of the area and total water outside the tiles?
20:37:44 <Eddi|zuHause3> e.g. tree growing
20:37:53 <Eddi|zuHause3> house construction
20:38:03 <hylje> when a river tile is "full", it forms a part of the river. it has no logic of its own, it only knows its flow direction, its flow volume. its water level is constant.
20:38:22 <hylje> only when the river is being created, or it is being messed with, logic kicks in
20:38:40 <yorick> how long is the ship standing there?
20:38:55 <Eddi|zuHause3> so... i'm now testing how much i screwed up my installation... someone pray for me...
20:39:17 <Jortuny> oops, the order one didn't upload right.. but I have it at 'full load' there
20:39:30 <yorick> and your ratings at the station?
20:39:34 <yorick> how long is the ship standing there?
20:39:36 <SpComb> so what happens if there's a ship in a lake and then the lake starts draining out via a newly created stream?
20:39:41 <SpComb> does the ship get sucked along?
20:39:50 <Jortuny> no rating, and its been there for 1.5 years
20:39:52 <hylje> SpComb: i dont think ships care about flow
20:40:24 <Gonozal_VIII> does water level decrease?
20:40:27 <yorick> SpComb: same as when you blow up water now?
20:40:33 <Eddi|zuHause3> SpComb: if you terraform so that a lake drains out, you have bigger problems than ships
20:40:51 <yorick> no youtube links allowed
20:40:56 <Eddi|zuHause3> anyway, ships should not be affected by flow, but if the water tile disappears, they should blow up
20:41:10 <yorick> that would be a disaster
20:41:28 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's not a disaster, it can only be player initiated
20:41:41 <Eddi|zuHause3> similar to forcing a train through a signal
20:41:51 <Eddi|zuHause3> lakes don't dry up on their own
20:41:52 <hylje> but another player can't force your trains through a signal
20:42:02 <Eddi|zuHause3> that is a problem, yes ;)
20:42:15 <Eddi|zuHause3> but i wouldn't think about that initially
20:42:29 <hylje> i think lakes should attain sediments rather quickly until they are just 1-2 tiles in depth
20:42:52 <Gonozal_VIII> 1 tile only without deepwater
20:43:16 <Jortuny> Gonozal_VIII: thanks for your help... I have no idea what changed, but after 2.5 years it suddenly started to load!
20:43:17 <Eddi|zuHause3> if water level grows above 4, automatically raise the tile
20:43:35 <Jortuny> (I didn't change anything :/)
20:44:10 <hylje> im editing it all the time
20:44:20 <Eddi|zuHause3> but i was going to reboot...
20:44:27 <hylje> so lakes can be at most one tile deep?
20:45:14 <yorick> if water_level>4 depth.increase()
20:45:30 <Gonozal_VIII> level 4 is a halftile
20:45:45 <Gonozal_VIII> or a whole tile...
20:46:17 <hylje> so one terrain level deep at most
20:47:39 <hylje> a river tile wants to contain at most X flow units of water. if the tile gets more than that, the river tries to expand in width (if it can)
20:47:44 <yorick> [21:43] <Eddi|zuHause3> if water level grows above 4, automatically raise the tile
20:48:16 <yorick> it gets one tile higher
20:48:46 <Gonozal_VIII> higher tile with water level -4 looks the same as lower tile with water level 8
20:48:50 <yorick> am I right, Gonozal_VIII?
20:49:21 <yorick> *** bot-autolearning asks for confirmation
20:49:41 <Gonozal_VIII> yes, tile 1 higher
20:50:12 <Gonozal_VIII> so there is no level 4...
20:50:49 <Gonozal_VIII> levels start with -4, -3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3, -4 of next height
20:51:20 <hylje> River tiles want to contain at most X flow units. If it receives more than that, the river will try to expand in width, starting from the source. If something (e.g. a canyon, a building, rail..) blocks the expansion, the river tries to expand to the other side, if not that, it gives up: the tile has a strong current.
20:51:22 <yorick> any value between possible?
20:51:57 <hylje> this'd probably involve the river being a city-like entity
20:52:24 <Gonozal_VIII> there have to be sprites for every level..
20:52:58 <Gonozal_VIII> would be strange if it suddenly hops up one level
20:53:21 <Gonozal_VIII> level is only a pixel so no problem
20:53:46 <yorick> but it would be strange for a river to have individual tiles looking different
20:54:06 <hylje> flowing tiles are all full
20:54:17 <hylje> regardless of how much water flows through
20:55:45 <Gonozal_VIII> they have level 0 until they are blocked?
20:56:56 <yorick> but how do they flood then?
20:57:16 <hylje> only flooding tiles (and by extension, secluded lakes) have a level
20:57:40 <Gonozal_VIII> yes but the flowing tiles look like level 0
20:58:55 <Gonozal_VIII> blocked... level 1, 2, 3, raise tile --> level -4
20:59:26 <Gonozal_VIII> 1 pixel steps, shouldn't look too strange
21:01:01 <yorick> but who's going to make graphics, code, etc?
21:03:35 <Gonozal_VIII> would be nice to have some kind of model
21:04:01 <Gonozal_VIII> i'll try with an excel table
21:04:41 <DorpsGek> hylje: Prof_Frink was last seen in #openttd 36 minutes and 8 seconds ago: <Prof_Frink> Or increase drainage from a lake
21:06:39 <yorick> [22:04] <@DorpsGek> hylje: Prof_Frink was last seen in #openttd 36 minutes and 8 seconds ago: <Prof_Frink> Or increase drainage from a lake
21:06:49 <hylje> also, more eyes, more complaints please
21:08:12 <yorick> Belugas, orudge, glx, Ammler, anyone?
21:08:48 *** LA[lord] has joined #openttd
21:08:49 <Gonozal_VIII> paste the userlist to highlight everybody^^
21:09:09 <Prof_Frink> hylje: Only that I'd call large lakes "sinks" rather than "black holes"
21:09:14 <glx> <Gonozal_VIII> paste the userlist to highlight everybody^^ <-- and get a free ban :)
21:09:43 <hylje> i'm not too adept with geography and related words
21:09:58 <Prof_Frink> Is that free as in beer or free as in speech?
21:09:59 <yorick> well... I have to pay for it by pasting every name
21:10:57 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
21:14:13 <hylje> actually, this kind of river stuff doesn't even need sealevel
21:14:26 <hylje> given we fill up lakes' bottoms as they fill
21:14:41 <yorick> but sea is acting as a black hole
21:14:41 <Prof_Frink> hylje: Implement the Rimfall!
21:14:51 <hylje> Prof_Frink: do elaborate
21:15:13 <yorick> but if a lake is able to swallow enough water, that would be ok too
21:15:29 <Prof_Frink> hylje: water cascading over the edge of the world
21:15:40 <Prof_Frink> As seen on the Discworld
21:15:42 <yorick> [22:14] <hylje> yorick: sink <-- [22:14] <hylje> do elaborate
21:16:17 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
21:16:30 <Bjarni> I knew that would happen
21:16:40 <Bjarni> I CAN SEE THE FUTURE :D
21:16:57 <Bjarni> however I can't tell you about it as it's classified information
21:17:38 <Bjarni> we will talk about the past instead
21:17:46 <Bjarni> did anything interesting happen in here today?
21:17:47 <Gonozal_VIII> - River terraforming is lazy. It avoids expensive terraforming, always going to the
21:17:47 <Gonozal_VIII> cheapest direction. This is a pathfinder. <-- that's not really needed
21:18:01 <Prof_Frink> Bjarni: You know the Time Agency was shut down, right?
21:18:19 <Gonozal_VIII> rivers happened bjarni
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21:19:36 <Prof_Frink> hylje: Oh yeah, there should be increased chance of sources on the edge of snowy areas
21:20:06 <yorick> we're not yet going to look at springs during map generation
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21:20:49 <hylje> that can of course be noted
21:21:07 <Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> rivers happened bjarni <-- I knew that
21:21:23 <Gonozal_VIII> yes, you know everything
21:21:48 <Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> yes, you know everything <-- you are starting to learn about how the real world works
21:22:26 <Bjarni> guys... why are there no system to make rivers S shaped like they are in real life?
21:23:05 <Gonozal_VIII> we're currently working on definitions for river generation :-)
21:23:25 <yorick> 1/8 chance that rivers will go sidewards
21:23:30 <Bjarni> how much did you pay to get included?
21:23:32 <yorick> numbers can be changed
21:24:20 <yorick> its not gonozal_vii but Gonozal_VIII
21:24:52 <Gonozal_VIII> capslock sucks^^
21:25:05 <Gonozal_VIII> but capslock does too
21:27:01 <Bjarni> if anybody tries that here I will kick them
21:27:17 <Bjarni> except if they want to donate a million dollars or something
21:27:19 <hylje> anything to be clarified, fixed?
21:27:52 <Prof_Frink> hylje: Above a certain number of flow units the tiles should be considered impassable by the ship pathfinder
21:28:29 <hylje> i like dpaste. its fast.
21:28:32 <Bjarni> why will you make lakes terraform?
21:28:36 <Gonozal_VIII> flow could increase or decrease ship speed
21:28:54 <Bjarni> if you drain a lake the remaining land afterwards shouldn't be raised
21:29:38 <Gonozal_VIII> water is water is water
21:29:40 <hylje> lake draining, more precisely how rivers start is what needs more thought
21:30:16 <Bjarni> draining a lake and make all the water flow into a town instead sounds like fun :p
21:30:21 <Prof_Frink> hylje: You'll be inundated (no pun intended) with suggestion once you've started implementing it.
21:30:52 <hylje> Bjarni: not to mention competitors
21:31:23 <Phoenix_the_II> there anywhere you can specify a scenario's start money?
21:31:26 <hylje> that's a reason for drafting a rather through document of implementation
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21:32:09 <yorick> the difficulty settings maybe
21:32:16 <Gonozal_VIII> phoenix, you can start it, use the money cheat and waste money with blowing up water
21:32:53 <hylje> Bjarni: but because how rivers work here, flooding existing property isn't too easy. the river should avoids destroying buildings and stuff as much as it can
21:33:14 <Phoenix_the_II> Gonozal_VIII, without cheating obviously :p
21:33:15 <hylje> of course, given its slumped, it will poke a hole through anything
21:33:33 <Phoenix_the_II> just made myself a scenario
21:33:46 <Phoenix_the_II> but 1million to lay track + a few trains = no go :p
21:33:56 <Phoenix_the_II> for the first line
21:34:10 <Bjarni> then pick somewhere else for the first line
21:34:46 <Bjarni> I thought you meant potatoes
21:34:58 <Phoenix_the_II> i mean martian stones
21:35:16 <hylje> a lake with a river bringing water in and a river bringing water out is trivial
21:35:32 <Bjarni> Martian stones are so expensive that you can buy the world if you want a million of those
21:35:39 <Gonozal_VIII> max loan is more then enough to get started
21:35:42 <Bjarni> due to their magical power
21:35:49 <Bjarni> it can lure USA to do anything
21:35:58 <hylje> but how would a lake with a larger outbound river than the inbound river(s) decide how much water goes out?
21:36:43 <Bjarni> hylje: well... it depends on the rain pattern :P
21:37:01 <Gonozal_VIII> enough to keep the level at 0 ylje?
21:37:50 * Bjarni blames Gonozal_VIII's stpuid keybaord for all typos in the wrold
21:37:51 <hylje> if the river is terraformed larger than the inbound river(s), would the lake trickle just enough water to keep itself alive anyway
21:38:51 <Bjarni> what about rivers starting from a lake?
21:38:58 <Bjarni> will they drain the lake?
21:39:30 <Gonozal_VIII> there should never be more flow out than in
21:39:42 <hylje> if more comes out, the water level dwindles
21:39:57 <hylje> until the output ceases or downsizes
21:40:41 <Gonozal_VIII> if the water level goes down below -4... what happens to the terrain?
21:41:25 <Bjarni> I just thought of system (which I think is likely overkill for this). How about each water tile adds a single point of water points to simulate rain and then a big lake can generate a decent output without any input
21:41:30 <Bjarni> but a small lake can't
21:42:00 <Bjarni> I think this would demand too much CPU power compared to what we gain from it
21:42:17 <hylje> i want to tackle a minimal set of features for this
21:42:48 <hylje> there's water springs as the only source of water
21:42:51 <Gonozal_VIII> ok, below -4 runs dry, should work
21:45:40 <hylje> last revision for today
21:49:04 <Prof_Frink> hylje: Just one thing...
21:49:13 <Prof_Frink> needs more cowbell.
21:50:19 <Gonozal_VIII> sprites for testing can be just default river sprites with a number written on them
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22:47:30 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: bjarni * r11928 /trunk/src/autoreplace_cmd.cpp:
22:47:30 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: -Fix (r6393): [autoreplace] autoreplace could refit train engines to the wrong cargo type if the old engine had no cargo capacity and the new one had
22:47:30 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: Now autoreplace will always look at the wagons to figure out what to replace to (as originally intended)
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23:10:14 <Digitalfox> Hey guys, is there a place where i can download all windows vista 32bit updates offline, i mean save them in a folder?
23:11:17 <Digitalfox> Well i want to integrate them in a Vista ISO, so i need them
23:11:23 <ln-> Is this a Windows Vista support channel?
23:11:42 <Digitalfox> no, but maybe someone could help me :\
23:12:11 <Gonozal_VIII> i guess you could fish them ont of the temporary dir...
23:12:14 <ln-> You've voluntarely bought Vista?
23:13:03 <Digitalfox> No, microsoft ofered me a Ultimate licence
23:13:28 <Gonozal_VIII> they have to spread their crap somehow^^
23:13:54 <Digitalfox> Gonozal_VIII: No, i did beta testing in Windows vista Beta 1 and Beta 2
23:14:13 <Digitalfox> And so me and another 12000 betatesters were offered a licence
23:14:34 <Gonozal_VIII> imho vista hasn't even reached beta stage yet
23:15:39 <glx> Digitalfox: they are usually available on windows update (there should be a link to get the exe)
23:15:53 <Digitalfox> Anyway, i'm using vlite, and want to integrate the updates before creating a Boot ISO, but it seems it's hard to find them all.. And now this is stupid microsoft shut down the option to slipstream SP1 in RTM o_O
23:17:10 <Rubidium> ofcourse it's hard... you aren't allowed as non-legit user or user without internet to run a safe Windows or to circumvent the measures they have taken to make it so
23:19:17 <Rubidium> what Microsoft basically does is making running a safe and stable OS something where you need a 2 week course for
23:19:37 <Rubidium> and that course is yet another cash cow for them
23:25:47 <Prof_Frink> That is why you should give yourself to the penguin.
23:26:00 <Digitalfox> What i don't understand is how corporate network administrators are going to do when they install vista and after that they have to install sp1 ( SP1 takes 1 hour to install even in Top hardware ), since there's no way of streaming by yourself a DVD, now imagine hundreds of computers.. What a nightmare..
23:27:20 <Prof_Frink> Digitalfox: corporate network admins are going to do the obvious thing and install XP
23:28:06 <Digitalfox> Prof_Frink: You may think vista isn't being adopted, but it is.. 100 Milion licences sold, that isn't just home users
23:28:25 <Gonozal_VIII> they ship it with new pcs
23:28:27 <Rubidium> Digitalfox: licenses sold != licenses used
23:28:38 <Digitalfox> Rubidium: Solnd and used
23:28:43 <Prof_Frink> For example, I have a Vista Business license
23:28:57 <Rubidium> Digitalfox: how do you determine whether a license is used?
23:29:07 <Digitalfox> Because of activations
23:29:27 <Rubidium> Digitalfox: that's already done at the factory where they come from
23:29:31 <Digitalfox> and HAL used in activation
23:29:42 <Digitalfox> no it isnt Rubidium
23:29:53 <Rubidium> it was for my laptop
23:30:00 <Prof_Frink> I can't let you do that, Dave.
23:30:05 <Gonozal_VIII> new pcs come activated
23:30:13 <Digitalfox> My notebook didn't
23:30:44 <Prof_Frink> My Thinkpad never booted Winders
23:35:05 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: bjarni * r11929 /trunk/src/autoreplace_cmd.cpp:
23:35:05 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: -Fix (r9981)[FS#1624]: [autoreplace] fixed a case where a single headed locomotive caused an assert when being replaced to a dualheaded one
23:35:05 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: This triggered if the player had enough money to replace and refit one of them but not enough to refit the last one as well
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23:40:11 <Johnmit> may have found a bug in beta3...
23:40:21 <Bjarni> Gonozal_VIII: I had fun all evening debugging this one. It caused an assert somewhere else and the code where the assert triggered appeared to be bug free (it still does)
23:41:35 <Johnmit> telling ottd to add aircraft with shared orders to an aircraft group causes the game to crash
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23:41:52 <Johnmit> beta3, macosx, happens in newgame
23:42:11 <Rubidium> IIRC it's already fixed
23:42:22 <Johnmit> search didn't turn anything up...
23:42:38 <Johnmit> (although it wasn't a very thorough one ;) )
23:50:21 <Johnmit> is that a please don't file a bug report?
23:50:52 <Bjarni> are you asking for our bug tracking system or ?
23:51:25 <Rubidium> Johnmit: it's a, please check the nightly before thinking about reporting it at the bugtracker
23:51:37 <Gonozal_VIII> well, if rubidium writes it's already fixed, it most likely is
23:51:43 <Johnmit> on leopard, nightlies don't work...
23:52:50 <Johnmit> (or they didn't a few weeks ago)
23:53:04 <Johnmit> in the middle of exams so not exactly up to date...
23:53:11 <Bjarni> I only learned about it this week
23:53:19 <Bjarni> because somebody else told me
23:53:33 <Bjarni> if you noticed it weeks ago then why didn't you report it?
23:53:46 <Johnmit> nightlies not working on leopard?
23:54:11 <ln-> Johnmit: use the PPC version
23:54:25 <Bjarni> I have a hard time figuring out something like that on my own
23:54:25 <Johnmit> because i found topics on tt-f describing the problem so thought it was well known...
23:54:31 <Bjarni> because I don't have Leopard
23:54:36 <Bjarni> and I tend to compile myself
23:55:07 <Bjarni> now it turns out that I missed this on the forum and nobody pointed me to it...
23:55:10 <Prof_Frink> I knew it! Bjarni is a bot!
23:56:05 <Johnmit> maybe 'a few weeks ago' is a little bit of an understatement Bjarni
23:56:11 <Gonozal_VIII> the fact that he missed stuff is proof of his botificism?
23:58:21 <Bjarni> according to Prof_Frink it's not allowed to live in real life and not read everything on the forum
23:58:40 <SirkoZ> Hi! How could I increase the station length and train length the old AI uses? Is it ai_rail.h in /table
23:59:06 <Bjarni> if that is true then Prof_Frink wants to live in a virtual world and in this virtual world I'm the operator and he is not :p
23:59:17 <Johnmit> my knowledge of nightlies is currently based on start of xmas holidays
23:59:42 <Johnmit> haven't really kept uptodate - apologies if that caused any distress...
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