IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2007-12-29
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00:21:55 <Bjarni> murray: is that really how you see IRC?
00:21:58 <Bjarni> then I have a link for you
00:24:41 <flaa> some jerk just destroyed my company. not that losing it mattered to me much
00:26:35 <Bjarni> and what do you want me to do about it?
00:27:05 <Bjarni> it's not that I don't understand your issue but
00:27:11 <Bjarni> I can't do shit about it :(
00:28:11 <flaa> i know. i'm just expressing my frustration towards the fact that there are ppl like that around
00:28:29 <Bjarni> there are people on the internet
00:28:40 <Bjarni> and they act like jerks
00:28:55 <Bjarni> good thing you warned me... otherwise I wouldn't have noticed
00:29:09 <flaa> well they call me captain obvious
00:30:44 <Bjarni> murray: is that your playing style?
00:30:48 <Bjarni> it would fit you somehow
00:31:38 <murray> oh yes, all the souls i damaged on the internet over the years
00:31:40 <murray> you wouldn't believe it
00:31:57 <murray> best period was when tubgirl was fresh
00:33:13 <murray> shut it, foolish mortal
00:34:38 <murray> how dare you defy the all-mighty murray!
00:34:45 <Bjarni> the best thing is... the page was supposed to contain something else but it looks like it has been taken down xD
00:34:57 <Belugas> simply, he's a mod, you're not, murray
00:35:23 <Bjarni> <murray> how dare you defy the all-mighty murray! <-- I'm op and you are not
00:35:44 <murray> i wonder what the original is like
00:35:47 <Bjarni> winning statement of all arguments
00:36:23 <Bjarni> it was shooting pirate longboats with self reloading cannons
00:37:51 <Bjarni> or maybe it was Bloodnose
00:38:04 <Bjarni> actually Bloodnose was the guy to use the cannon at the time
00:38:19 <murray> nah, he was on the floor, crying
00:38:24 <murray> i think Guybrush hurt his feelings somehow
00:39:06 <Bjarni> now I sacrificed Wally for my own freedom... I'm trying to beat your level of evilness
00:40:45 <murray> you will never reach the evilness of murray, the invincible demonic skull!
00:41:18 <Belugas> mmh... by definition, a skull is empty
00:41:32 <Belugas> the brain has left it a ling time ago...
00:42:11 <murray> oh but you see, i am cursed!
00:42:38 <murray> under the spell of the evil ghost pirate LeChuck
00:43:45 <Bjarni> I have beaten LeChuck countless times
00:43:51 <Bjarni> I don't care for his curses
00:44:23 <murray> but he's always returned, hasn't he?
00:44:35 <Bjarni> each time I started over
00:45:18 <Bjarni> feels like an endless quest
00:46:18 <Bjarni> and now I don't even have to start the game for you to show up
00:46:19 <murray> you can never get rid of the all-mighty murray!
00:46:24 <murray> hey, what are you doing
00:46:45 <Bjarni> I'm trying to figure out how to push you into the water and make you stay there
00:48:17 <Bjarni> all my actions right now are a part of my evil plot to hurt you
00:48:35 <murray> you will never succeed!
00:49:01 <Bjarni> found your phone number
00:49:07 <Bjarni> expect a call any moment now :D
00:50:10 <murray> the all-mighty murray needs no phone for his evil deeds!
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00:51:27 <Bjarni> this channel has a history of calling people on the phone if they are offline
00:53:24 *** Belugas sets mode: +o Belugas_Gone
00:54:40 <murray> looks like i'll fit right in
00:56:24 <Bjarni> specially since the phonecall I'm thinking off took place because the guy went to bed
00:56:39 <Bjarni> and he didn't give out his phone number so a little research was done to find it
00:56:58 <Bjarni> man was he surprised when he picked up the phone :D
00:57:02 <Belugas> beware, foolish ... Bjarni is the King Of Pain, you may regrt having crossed his path
00:58:45 <murray> me, beware? hah! i am a powerful demonic force! i am the harbinger of your doom! and the forces of darkness will applaud me as i STRIDE through the gates of hell, carrying your heads on a pike!
00:59:56 <Belugas> Bjarni, can i do your dirty deeds for you?
01:00:13 <Bjarni> as long as I get the loot
01:01:26 <murray> was the phonecall victim an ottd programmer?
01:01:27 <Belugas> so, murray, one more useless non-sense word, and you'll face the mighty wrath of the OTTD devs
01:02:10 * dih hopes to be online for that
01:02:37 <murray> seeing as i've come to like this channel, i'll try to behave
01:03:45 <dih> nothing i could do to tickle out that little evil spirit of yours?
01:04:27 <Belugas> dih, don't temp the devil ;) you'd be guilty of conspiracy
01:04:56 <murray> i do have a very tickly spot right under my left foot
01:05:35 <dih> Belugas: 'dont' as in 'one should not' or 'one is not allowed to' ?
01:06:00 * dih does not want to know about murray's stinky feet
01:06:56 <Belugas> dih, isn't it the same ?
01:07:34 <dih> i understand a 'should not' as 'it would not be recomended to' :-)
01:08:29 <dih> which does not imply that i am not supposed to do semething
01:09:08 <dih> forget it - i am not makeing a whole lot of sense here
01:10:17 <Belugas> well... i would say you're not the only one in your case :D
01:10:33 <Belugas> i've got stuff to concentrate on.
01:10:42 <Belugas> see yo soon tonight/tomorrow
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01:21:18 <Bjarni> hehe... just saw some bloopers they release due to new year... one guy sits in a sofa and talks about product placement of TVs. On the TV behind him is a random film and at that time two people ends up in the same bed but not to sleep
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01:51:43 <Burgundavia> got a nice bug with Zephyris' tram/road vehicle set
01:52:00 <Burgundavia> it doesn't seem like the maintenance is being taken off
01:52:10 <Burgundavia> before I report it, has anybody else seen it?
01:52:30 <Gonozal_VIII> [02:51:59] Burgundavia: it doesn't seem like the maintenance is being taken off <-- can't understand that
01:52:59 <Burgundavia> I am not being charged the running cost of the vehicle
01:53:32 <Gonozal_VIII> didn't notice that
01:53:48 <Burgundavia> running beta 2 on ubuntu
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04:03:28 <Burgundavia> is it a bug that you cannot replace like with like?
04:03:51 <Gonozal_VIII> that's autorenew not autoreplace
04:05:32 <Burgundavia> why are they not the same UI?
04:06:16 <Gonozal_VIII> that's a patch setting, vehicle list ui for that
04:06:43 <Burgundavia> patches are our bane, much like KDEs
04:06:48 <Burgundavia> there is a reason I use GNOME
04:07:31 <Burgundavia> the whole config UI needs a very serious revamp/unification
04:08:22 <Burgundavia> I can do the redesign, but I cannot code the thing
04:10:02 <BigBB> Burgundavia: sorry but what do you mean whith: <Burgundavia> is it a bug that you cannot replace like with like?
04:10:20 <Belugas> for a moment, i thouhg he would redesign AND recode it
04:10:42 <Burgundavia> BigBB: replacing vehicles with the same type
04:10:53 <Gonozal_VIII> yes, that's autorenew
04:11:33 <Burgundavia> yes, which should be part of the autoreplace UI
04:14:05 <Belugas> i don't think so. THAT would be confusing
04:14:29 <Belugas> two functions need two gui
04:14:45 <Belugas> othersie, it's a state system that is, by essence, BAD
04:15:02 <Burgundavia> maybe, but it should be part of that somewhere
04:15:17 <Gonozal_VIII> but a combination thing could be nice... to keep vehicles until they're old and then replace with different type
04:16:22 <Burgundavia> it also occured to me that the current order system works well for trains but badly for aircraft and especially trucks
04:16:39 <Burgundavia> because you have a lot of individual vehciles in both those cases
04:16:55 <Burgundavia> it might be more sane to have "routes" and then assign vehicles to them
04:17:12 <Burgundavia> yes, they do, but the UI is suboptimal
04:17:55 <Burgundavia> the UI is still vehicle-oriented
04:18:04 <Burgundavia> not route oriented
04:18:51 <Gonozal_VIII> so... route thing in the station window?
04:19:14 <Burgundavia> the list of vehciles that serve that station?
04:19:41 <Gonozal_VIII> no i mean you want a route planning tool in the station window or what?
04:20:22 <Burgundavia> basically, you would have a top level icon that showed routes
04:20:29 <Burgundavia> there you could create a route
04:21:02 <Gonozal_VIII> i guess the best would be if you make some mockup screenshots of what you want and post that in the forum
04:21:12 <Burgundavia> then you assign a vehcile to a route, rather than go the vehicle, find another vehicle doing the same route and ctrl-click on it
04:21:58 <Gonozal_VIII> pictures say more than 1000 words
04:22:38 <Burgundavia> it is alos a fundamental change in the current UI for creating orders
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05:15:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: egladil * r11718 /trunk/src/video/cocoa/ (cocoa_v.h fullscreen.mm wnd_quartz.mm wnd_quickdraw.mm): -Fix [FS#1483]: Show the fullscreen modes available to the cocoa driver in windowed mode too.
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06:29:13 <shodan> no off-topic youtube links? :(
06:29:34 <shodan> someone start up a conversation on Knights so we can watch Monty Python!
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09:02:41 <laz0r> are openttd savegames version independent?
09:03:31 <Gonozal_VIII> but you can open old games with new versions
09:03:52 <laz0r> is there a binary tarball of the latest beta somewhere?
09:04:25 <laz0r> on the download page there is only a .deb linked, which i installed, but i would like to have both versions (stable and beta)
09:05:16 <laz0r> so, there is probably a way to make a tarball out of the deb, but just a tarball would be nicer
09:05:22 <Gonozal_VIII> scroll down a bit..
09:06:52 <laz0r> it still gets me to the sf.net download page, and there are source tarballs, bit no binary tarballs
09:08:57 <Gonozal_VIII> hmm i don't know
09:09:10 <Rubidium_> laz0r: dpkg --unpack --root=<something not /> maybe?
09:09:30 <Burgundavia> laz0r: there is a debian package
09:09:34 <Burgundavia> I am using it right now
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09:10:23 <laz0r> Rubidium_, i did that, although without the --root option, and it did some apt magic that caused apt-get to install stuff
09:10:32 <laz0r> so, after that, 0.5.3 was gone
09:10:53 <Burgundavia> laz0r: oh, you want to do that, umm, right, apt was not design to do that
09:11:09 <Burgundavia> you risk seriously screwing your machine
09:11:27 <laz0r> well, i think i got it under control
09:11:46 <laz0r> still, i would just like to unpack the thing into a directory, and start openttd from there
09:11:51 <Draakon> can anybody explain what is ECS Vehicles Alpha 1 newgrf?
09:11:59 <Gonozal_VIII> you don't really need 0.5.3 anyways imho, the beta (even the nightlies) are very stable
09:12:18 <laz0r> i need 0.5.3 to continue my old games
09:12:53 <laz0r> the latest beta does in fact load them, but then mysterious things are happing
09:13:20 <laz0r> actually im just getting a desync error because im always starting a server and then just join it myself
09:13:31 <Gonozal_VIII> "A temporary grf that allows AI to use Default trains for new cargos. Incompatible with all the train sets except very old temperate and arctic sets. Released for test issue only. Does not support maglev or monorail. Made by Michael Blunck, Wile E. Coyote, George."
09:15:39 <Gonozal_VIII> you don't really need that draakon, many vehicle sets support ecs
09:15:57 <Draakon> many vehicle sets dont have maglev
09:16:11 <Gonozal_VIII> dbset xl has maglev
09:17:42 <Gonozal_VIII> that's what maglevs are for
09:18:37 <Draakon> still i like maglev that deliver cargo too
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09:20:20 <Gonozal_VIII> i don't think there's a grf that has that
09:20:45 <Gonozal_VIII> you could mess around with the transrapid wagons to make them refittable to other things
09:21:46 <Draakon> by nfo coding which i dont know how
09:24:40 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11719 /trunk/src/ (40 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: split sound.h in a header with types and one with functions.
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12:39:47 <Wolf01> i have a .bat file, is possible to add an Id svn keyword to it?
12:40:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> err... without : i believe
12:41:24 <Bjarni> it breaks the windows svn client while it works from the CLI based svn client
12:41:46 <Wolf01> uh, i always used the : and worked
12:42:05 <Bjarni> also you need to svn propset the file to ID
12:42:29 <Bjarni> I once got flamed for breaking windows checkout due to adding this char
12:43:08 <peter__> $Id$ is the tag, anything between d and $ is replaced by the content
12:43:22 <Wolf01> the eol style is CRLF for bat, or native works well?
12:46:01 <valhallasw> native is safe; but I suspect no-one would use batch files on LF-based systems anyway ;)
12:47:09 <valhallasw> it still sucks SVN does not support forcing properties like svn:keywords and svn:eol-style
12:47:10 <Bjarni> valhallasw: never underestimate user stupidity
12:47:32 <peter__> what do you mean by forcing?
12:47:35 <Bjarni> besides it might be a good idea to allow the rest of us to edit the file without this issue
12:48:08 <valhallasw> peter__: well. technically it's possible to write a precommit hook that disallows commits that do not have those properties
12:49:47 <peter__> you can set up your svn config to automatically apply properties to new files
12:50:28 <valhallasw> yes... locally and for all repositories you edit
12:52:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> you can edit each repository with a different user ;)
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13:11:14 <pavel1269> i like some comments :)
13:11:23 <pavel1269> "/// @todo WTF is this???"
13:18:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> there are better ones
13:20:00 <Eddi|zuHause2> like there was a comment: "TODO: doesn't work <-- WHAT doesn't work?"
13:33:07 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause2: in pathfinder, yes? :)
13:33:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, i think it was in the bridge branch
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13:47:33 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, i'm pretty sure it was introduced by the bridge branch ;)
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14:20:27 <reto> can anybody give me some hints about how to import openttd into xcode?
14:21:40 <AKiS> knows anybody why i don't receive a mail when i try to register at bugs.openttd.org?
14:24:42 <glx> yes it may have been detected as spam
14:26:47 <AKiS> and i retried to register and nothing ...
14:28:00 <reto> it worked for me on 25th december
14:28:09 <reto> sender was mihamix@openttd.org
14:28:15 <reto> subject was Notice from Flyspray
14:28:27 <reto> create a trash account on fastmail.fm and try it there :)
14:29:10 <peter__> invariably feedback is required, so trash accounts are pretty pointless
14:29:44 <reto> well, no trash account :) creat another mail account on fastmail.fm then :)
14:29:57 <reto> and trash it after some time :)
14:30:00 <AKiS> i see "Your confirmation code has been sent. Please follow the instructions contained in the message." but I still don't receive no mail
14:30:24 <reto> AKiS: if you like I can send you a mail to rule out any problems on your side
14:31:31 <AKiS> i only have to report a bug
14:32:24 <AKiS> but i can't register to send them the crash
14:41:25 <Bjarni> <reto> can anybody give me some hints about how to import openttd into xcode? <-- not really as it stopped working
14:42:02 <Bjarni> I usually just open the individual files in Xcode and use terminal to compile/debug
14:42:03 <reto> Bjarni: hmm.. so what would you recommend to work on the code on os x?
14:42:22 <reto> have you tried Eclipse's CDT?
14:43:02 <reto> hmm.. I think I'm gonna play with the code using textmate and the terminal
14:43:17 <reto> for now.. otherwise I'm gonna lose a lot of tim ejust getting things running
14:43:29 <Bjarni> when people requested an Xcode project file and even showed up with one then I added it. The idea was that it read the makefile so file updating wasn't needed
14:43:38 <Bjarni> this broke when we switched to C++
14:43:43 <Bjarni> and nobody bothered to repair it
14:43:53 <Bjarni> looks like only a very few people even used it
14:44:00 <Bjarni> the makefile always works
14:44:10 <reto> well.. I wish it would be as easy as wwith java
14:44:15 <reto> eclipse is really awesome :)
14:46:27 <Bjarni> I wouldn't mind an Xcode project file that works with the project generator script. Sadly the project file has some numbers that I haven't figured out how to create. All the info I found is that they are leftovers from some old system and all that we should think about is "do not touch and it will work"
14:46:41 <Bjarni> meaning you have to use Xcode to generate those numbers
14:47:23 <Bjarni> and I don't want to do that every time somebody else adds or removes a file
14:47:50 <Bjarni> I wouldn't mind if you figured this out though but I guess it would take a while
14:47:58 <Bjarni> and it's not important
14:48:01 <reto> Bjarni, can you give me a hint where the budget screen code is located.
14:48:11 <reto> no, I'm not a xcode user..
14:48:25 <reto> I just sounded obvious to use it, but I don't mind using something else
14:50:16 <Bjarni> src/player_gui.cpp <-- I think this one is the one you are looking for
14:50:41 <Bjarni> however I didn't read all of it to be sure ;)
14:58:10 <orudge> Heh, two years ago on tt-forums, 57.7% of hits were from IE, 28.7% from Firefox. Now it's 45.2% Firefox, 40.%% IE
14:58:31 <orudge> Opera is the next highest, gone up from around 7% to 8% in two years
15:00:06 <|Jeroen|> thats a pretty high ff ratio
15:00:22 <|Jeroen|> must be because of all the linux users
15:00:46 <Bjarni> either that or IE sucks
15:01:40 <orudge> Windows accounts for 88.6% of hits this month
15:02:00 <orudge> 0.1% OS/2 (nearly 10,000 hits)
15:02:24 <Bjarni> you can't divide it into each subsection?
15:02:28 <orudge> in December 2005, it was 91.3% Windows, 3.5% Linux, 1.5% Macintosh
15:02:43 <Bjarni> I pretty sure that the OpenTTD subforums gets more hits than the patch subforums
15:02:52 * orudge wonders how come there were so many hits for OS/2
15:03:56 <orudge> 3.4% of searches (as in google/whatever searches) were for "openttd" in 2005, 6.1% in 2007
15:04:02 <orudge> still in 3rd place as far as keywords, for both years
15:04:28 <orudge> "transport", "tycoon", "openttd" are the top three search keywords that got people here
15:04:35 <Bjarni> openttd is the 3rd most searched word on google???
15:04:39 <orudge> can't split it into specific forums or categories though, Bjarni
15:04:51 <orudge> it's the 3rd most searched word that got people to the forums :p
15:04:54 <Bjarni> I would be really surprised if that were the case
15:04:58 <orudge> from google or other search engines
15:05:56 <Bjarni> is TTDpatch even searched for?
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15:07:19 <orudge> Bjarni: further down the list
15:07:25 <orudge> "locomotion" and "download" are ahead of it
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15:25:23 <LA[lord]> is Belugas somewhere here?
15:25:37 <peter__> does it look like it?
15:25:41 <reto> hmm.. where are the commands to the game engine processed?
15:26:11 <reto> I'm looking for the places where CMD_BUY_SHARE_IN_COMPANY is used, but I can only find the definition and the gui action
15:27:13 <peter__> CmdBuyShareInCompany(), most likely
15:27:42 <pv2b> ./src/command.cpp: {CmdBuyShareInCompany, 0}, /* 74, CMD_BUY_SHARE_IN_COMPANY */
15:32:10 <reto> there's a maximum of 8 players, right? :)
15:32:16 <reto> bankrupt_asked; ///< which players were asked about buying it? <-- :)
15:32:21 <reto> byte bankrupt_asked; ///< which players were asked about buying it? <-- :)
15:33:56 <pv2b> (so *that*'s where the 8 player limit comes from, among other things)
15:34:25 <reto> well.. I'm usually a java guy.. so I was wondering 'huuh.. shoudln't that be a list.. wait.. ah yes.. byte' :)
15:34:49 <peter__> pv2b, all over the place, yes
15:35:05 <peter__> hence the simple patches to change it are generally broken :o
15:35:07 <pv2b> could probably be made a nonfactor with the judicious use of some typedefs
15:35:33 <pv2b> typedef byte player_bitfield; //< change as needed
15:36:18 <pv2b> then, if more than 64 players are ever used, use the fact that it's fucking c++ and drop in a class without asking *<;-) operator overloading ftw
15:36:46 <peter__> yes, could be done. are you supplying a patch? ;)
15:36:59 <reto> why using a bitfeld at all :) in this case a list/array would be reasonable as well
15:37:03 <pv2b> i'm fine with 8 players.
15:37:16 <pv2b> reto: because the people who write openttd like tight data structures
15:37:51 <pv2b> take a look at the struct that stores map data for instane
15:38:06 <pv2b> it's legitimate there since you have millions of those in memory at any given time
15:38:23 <reto> yeah yeah, don't take me to seriousyl :)
15:38:39 <pv2b> you can do integer bitfields in java too *<;-)
15:38:55 <reto> well, there's a BitSet class
15:39:01 <pv2b> lol. a class for bitfields.
15:39:25 <reto> well, thats probably a bad example
15:39:52 <pv2b> the pic instruction set for 8-bit microcontrollers contain *instructions* for bit manipulation.
15:40:10 <reto> p.bankrupt_asked.isIncluded(anotherPlayer) wouldn't be that bad, would it?
15:40:29 <pv2b> you mean if anotherPlayer in p.bankrupt_adked:
15:40:54 <reto> hmm.. lemme think, .. I guess thats easy with a normal bit feld already
15:40:56 <pv2b> i mean, sure, in that case it's prolly not a big deal.
15:41:03 <pv2b> it's not a repeating structure
15:41:14 <pv2b> at least not millions of times like a map tile
15:41:17 <reto> p.brankupt_asked && anotherPlayer.id it would be something liek that?
15:41:31 <pv2b> more like p.bankrupt_asked & (1 << anotherPlayer.id)
15:41:51 <reto> well.. with stuff like that it starts imho :(
15:42:42 <pv2b> #define BIT_IS_SET(f,b) ((f)&(1<<(b)))
15:43:14 <pv2b> #define BIT_SET(f,b) ((f) |= (1<<b))
15:43:23 <pv2b> #define BIT_CLEAR(f,b) ((f) &= ~(1<<b))
15:43:32 <pv2b> that should satisfy any quiche eaters in the room.
15:43:41 <reto> for (Player p : p.bankrupt_asked.getPlayersNotSetYet()) {
15:43:47 <pv2b> oh, s/b/(b)/ on the last two lines
15:44:36 <reto> unsweetened custard pie usually having a savory filling (as spinach, mushrooms, or ham) lol
15:48:44 <pv2b> in fact, on a pic, the bit test instruction pair (btfss and btfsc) is the only conditional jump available.
15:48:50 <pv2b> conditional branch rather
15:53:24 <pv2b> other than interrupts of course
15:53:53 <reto> whas hmming about the share holding code, sorry :)
15:54:47 <reto> hey there's even a such a class :)
15:54:52 <reto> PlayerByte* b = p->share_owners;
15:55:01 <pv2b> reto: just curious, what are you trying to do?
15:55:14 <pv2b> reto: hmmm? and it's not used in that place? sounds like a bug
15:55:15 <reto> pv2b: well.. I'm about to ask anyway
15:55:38 <reto> general idea: adding owned stocks to the company value
15:55:59 <reto> which would make the whole stock think a bit more realistic
15:56:09 <pv2b> how does that work anyway
15:56:21 <pv2b> if you own 75% of a company that owns 75% of another company?
15:56:44 <pv2b> if company A owns 75% of company B that then buys 75% of company A
15:56:50 <reto> well you also own 75% of these 75% procent
15:57:12 <pv2b> and of those 75% of 75% percent, you own 75%?
15:57:13 <reto> then it gets really confusing
15:57:26 <reto> pv2b: what happens if a company buys it owns shares?
15:58:00 <reto> pv2b: like a company has 100 stocks each worht $1
15:58:31 <reto> pv2b: let's say the company can convince the owner of of 50 shares to sell the share for one doller
15:59:16 <reto> pv2b: the company pays back the capital
15:59:49 <reto> pv2b: therefore the company only has $50 capital
16:00:00 <pv2b> so that company doesn't actually "own" those shares any more
16:00:03 <reto> pv2b: 50 shares are destroeyd
16:00:10 <pv2b> and can print as many new shares it wants any time
16:00:18 <reto> the company == the other 50 share holders
16:00:34 <reto> the whole system even makes sense :)
16:00:49 <reto> but anyway... openttd doesn't have a realistic stock system anyway
16:00:57 <pv2b> companies should be owned by players
16:01:07 <reto> yeah, and they would never sell their shares :)
16:01:10 <pv2b> kinda how it works in railroad tycoon
16:01:22 <pv2b> there you have your own personal economy as well as the company economy
16:01:31 <reto> but in my opinion it would make the current system a bit more realisitc
16:01:38 <pv2b> at least it'd prevent abuse
16:01:43 <pv2b> money appearing from thin air
16:02:18 <reto> caluclating the company value is no big deal, already found that function..
16:02:32 <pv2b> so add share%*othercompanyvalue to that
16:02:46 <reto> and hope that there are no recurrsions :)
16:02:47 <pv2b> but then you get what you'd call a circular reference
16:03:13 <reto> it should be company-value (excluding shares of my own cmompany9
16:03:38 <reto> btw, that was the reason for the 'hmmm' :)
16:03:47 <pv2b> that doesn't work either
16:04:20 <pv2b> this system makes my head hurt
16:04:48 <pv2b> i think you need to put up a spreadsheet to mess around in
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16:06:17 <reto> I will think about it, right
16:18:58 <pv2b> reto: just excluding shares of own company isn't enough to eliminate a circular reference
16:19:17 <pv2b> because wen you make a profit, the other company's value goes up, causing your company value to go up....
16:20:09 <reto> and what about a owns b, b owns c, c owns b
16:20:22 <reto> well.. circular, not recursive
16:20:31 <reto> well, that's another problem
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16:20:56 <peter__> if players own a company, what happens when a player leaves an MP game?
16:21:16 <pv2b> peter__: more specific please
16:21:36 <thomas001> hi,is it possible to tell a helicopter not to pick up post?
16:21:38 <reto> well, what happens with the trains etc?
16:21:56 <pv2b> thomas001: i don't think so
16:22:05 <reto> thomas001: try the following thing: select refit, and select passenger, and press 'refit' I think this will remove the post
16:22:17 <reto> thomas001: it's a bit confusing because it says rfefitting cost: $0
16:23:21 <reto> well.. I'd sell everything and return the shares to the owner
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16:23:25 <reto> but I guess thats a bit complicated
16:23:34 <reto> but I don't mind changing not a bit :)
16:23:43 <reto> therefore = the company value goes down
16:23:47 <peter__> the player just left...
16:23:57 <reto> no, owners of shares of the player just left
16:24:46 <pv2b> unless autoclean is on the companys ticks around
16:24:49 <pv2b> so the money stays there
16:24:57 <reto> well, in 'my' version the companyvalue would be added to the cash of all share owners
16:25:09 <pv2b> i think that already happens
16:25:10 <reto> which would be fair, imho
16:25:20 <pv2b> if you own stock in a comany that goes bankrupt, your shares are returned
16:25:23 <reto> so the shares are sold right before the player ges annihilated
16:25:55 <thomas001> reto, hmm capacity is still listed as 40 passengers and 15 pieces of post (sorry don't know the english word)
16:26:14 <pv2b> then i think it is not possible to do what you want
16:26:14 <reto> thomas001: okay, try to refit to something else, and then back to passengers
16:26:23 <reto> thomas001: if that doesn't work I'm sorry
16:27:25 <LA[lord]> but you can refit to only post
16:27:28 <reto> I thought I've seen something like that
16:27:35 <pv2b> and it shouldn't you can't just stuff passengers in a post compartment
16:28:32 <reto> pv2b: I think I've got a solution :)
16:28:57 <reto> pv2b: gonna show you some pseudo code in a minute
16:30:54 <reto> pv2b: the whole thing Is a directed graph which we traverse
16:31:06 <reto> pv2b: but we avoid any nodes which are already in a set
16:31:27 <reto> so we won't traverse our own company agin
16:31:38 <reto> or any other companies we have already visited
16:32:01 <reto> basi_value() would return the current company value
16:32:12 <reto> pv2b: does this make any sense?
16:40:33 <reto> pv2b: hmm.. I could write a simpe prototype in ruby do confirm the system, do you agree: sum_of_all_company_values and sum_of_all_basic_company_values should stay the same, no matter what changes
16:41:23 <pv2b> or you can just try it in excel
16:41:31 <pv2b> i'm checking your coden ow
16:41:47 <reto> well, wouldn't be that much code
16:42:03 <reto> thats the normal company value, trains, busses, stations, whatever
16:42:51 <reto> the for-each thing is a bit wrong, but I guess you know what I mean
16:43:14 <pv2b> buying and selling shares must be zerosum
16:43:25 <pv2b> so make that algorithm for like 4 companies
16:43:31 <pv2b> try every single combination
16:43:43 <pv2b> see if they all get the same amoutn of value
16:43:53 <pv2b> but wait... just a second
16:44:17 <pv2b> you're makign a function where company value differs depending on who measures it?
16:44:58 <reto> I'm not sure if that's even close to correct
16:45:00 <pv2b> because that's not the *company* value
16:45:28 <reto> then company value would be: that company's value plus all share value
16:45:33 <reto> and share value would be my algo?
16:45:47 <pv2b> mm. something like that.
16:45:57 <pv2b> because buying shares in a company that owns most of your company should cost less?
16:46:13 <reto> hmm.. :) my mind goes crazy :)
16:46:29 <reto> nah I think it wouldn't cost less... I tihnk
16:47:05 <pv2b> but those shares of your self you now own part of shouldn't really be..... uh...
16:47:10 <reto> but when you merge I have no idea what should happen
16:47:12 <pv2b> calculated to your company value again?
16:47:43 <reto> well, they would get subtracted from your own company value yes
16:47:58 <reto> I just play single player at the moment
16:48:01 <pv2b> the system sucks, and fixing it is obviously nontrivial
16:48:04 <reto> and there it's kinda funny
16:48:15 <reto> because it's impossible to ruin them
16:48:43 <reto> I would wish there would be a dialog: 'you just have taken over comapny XY, would you liek to sell all assets? '
16:48:58 <reto> you fire all employees :)
16:49:17 <pavel1269> real world ... yeah ...
16:50:02 <reto> well it takes me about an hour or two to sell unrentable(/duplicated trains, correct the path of some trains
16:50:07 <reto> upgrade the engines, egc.
16:50:13 <reto> propperly build th eairports
16:50:54 <reto> yesterday I've play a game: started in 2000, 7 components, all fast and 'very intelligent', 512 x 512, flat/not much water
16:51:02 <reto> I haven't build a single train, just four airports
16:51:12 <reto> ah wait, first I ahve let them build for about two years
16:51:24 <reto> then I bought all companys, one by one :)
16:51:36 <reto> and then hunting for the next one
16:51:40 <pv2b> i prefer to build from the ground up
16:51:47 <pv2b> the AI just makes lots of stupid stuff imo
16:52:07 <reto> after 16 years all starting companies belogned to me, with about 500'000'000 cash :)
16:52:15 <reto> about 150 trains.. (haven't build one of them) :)
16:52:36 <reto> first thing when you bought up a company: sell all red trains :)
16:52:52 <reto> well, was an intersting experiment
16:52:58 <reto> I prefer normal games as well
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16:57:03 <LA[lord]> ok..back again after a healthy 25min jogging
16:58:41 <LA[lord]> any Belugas's presence noticed?
17:01:40 <pavel1269> hehe orudge wrote to my topic :) iformation_value == 0, but still :)
17:02:01 <glx> LA[lord]: it's saturday and he have a family
17:12:58 <orudge> pavel1269: which topic was that? I've posted in a fair few topics today :p
17:15:52 *** Dark_Link^ has joined #openttd
17:16:05 <orudge> I really should have published my code a year ago when I wrote it
17:16:08 <orudge> somehow, I never got around to it
17:21:29 <pavel1269> Sacro: how's your programmable signals doing? :)
17:22:16 <peter__> holding xbox psu by its edges
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17:25:55 <pavel1269> Sacro: btw, what your start contain?
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17:27:36 <pavel1269> dunno whats that :)
17:28:24 <pavel1269> whatever, i am caring because i am making(trying to make) prog. signals too :P
17:28:44 <pavel1269> atm i just broke whole signal system ^^
17:29:06 <Sacro> i was thnking of fixing ABS first
17:29:45 <pavel1269> why i dont understand you something in every line :))
17:30:27 <pavel1269> whats that? absolute block?
17:33:30 <Sacro> very similar to how it works currently, the lines are split into blocks
17:33:38 <Sacro> and you can only have 1 train per block
17:35:25 <pavel1269> that's what i currently broke :D
17:35:33 <Bjarni> <Sacro> Bjarni makes me tingle <-- wtf
17:35:52 <Bjarni> I know that's the usual response to Sacro, but still...
17:38:41 <thomas001> Sacro, so whats the difference?
17:38:53 <Sacro> thomas001: what do you mean?
17:39:26 <thomas001> Sacro, ABS,you said its very similar to how it currently works,but where is it different?
17:40:19 <peter__> antilock braking system?
17:41:13 <Sacro> thomas001: TT is default green
17:41:46 <pv2b> default red makes more sense imo
17:41:57 <thomas001> so TT is red when a train is in the block? when is ABS green?
17:43:52 <glx> <thomas001> so TT is red when a train is in the block? when is ABS green? <-- when a train wants to enter in a free block
17:44:59 <thomas001> so when in ABS a train wants to enter its basically the TT signal behaviour?
17:48:19 <Digitalfox> or ad ware call it what you want
17:49:12 <reto> pv2b: B has shares of A, A buys shares of B: A doesn't have to pay for the value added by B's posseion of A shares, but I also doesn't get them if they merge
17:49:16 <Digitalfox> What's next, Windows sending info about what porn i see in media player? lol
17:49:31 <reto> pv2b: because a company can't buy it's own shares
17:49:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> thomas001: when no train is in the block and no train is trying to enter (idle line), the TT state is green, where real signals show red
17:49:51 <reto> pv2b: which also means that a share is cheaper/more epxansive when bought by different parties
17:49:59 <pavel1269> Digitalfox: it will kill their servers :)
17:50:04 <reto> pv2b: not sure if that's an evil thing or not? :)
17:50:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> that is the only difference
17:50:36 <thomas001> Eddi|zuHause2, yes,i got that. but as there is no train involved this difference is not significant?
17:50:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> real signals only switch to green if train requested it, and it is guaranteed to pass
17:50:57 <Digitalfox> pavel1269: Maybe not, they do receive much info from people who allow the " May be study your experience with windows "
17:51:09 <thomas001> Eddi|zuHause2, so ABS is to modell real signal behaviour?
17:51:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> that last passage is the significant one
17:51:19 <Digitalfox> pavel1269: but that you allow
17:51:40 <Eddi|zuHause2> you have to reserve the block, so no other train will get a green signal on the next request
17:52:11 <pv2b> reto: hm, i dunno. shares shouldn't be different in price depending on who buys them... but i dunno, maybe there is no other way to fix it
17:53:12 <thomas001> Eddi|zuHause2, what happens in TT signals if 2 trains enter at exactly the same time?
17:54:23 <Eddi|zuHause2> if two trains want to enter on the same tick, one gets through (the one with the lower ID probably), and the other makes an emergency stop [which is a big "realism" problem]
17:55:03 <thomas001> in ABS trains reserve the next block some time before entering it?
17:55:03 <reto> pv2b: it has to do with the fact that the openttd model doesn't allow owning the own company
17:55:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, that would be a required step for better signalling
17:55:25 <reto> anyway, I hope I can getting around creating this simulation tonight :)
17:55:49 <thomas001> ah,thx for the explanations and patience :)
17:57:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> basically, a signal has to have 3 states: idle (red), reserved/occupied (red) and reserved/free (green)
17:58:17 <pv2b> yeah, basically no two signals into the same block should be possible to be green at any given time
17:59:12 <pv2b> also, for extra realism it shouldn't be possible to hold a higher speed than so that you can stop safely at the next currently red signal
17:59:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> the next question is: where do you save the signal state
17:59:32 <pv2b> the signal state is saved in the map right now i think
17:59:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> currently, it is not saved
17:59:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> it is recalculated every time a train enters a signal tile
18:00:13 <peter__> signal state is saved in the map
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18:01:25 <pv2b> there could be a list of signals clearances and clearance requests
18:01:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> signal states are cached somewhere, for display and stuff, but definitely not saved in the map
18:01:29 <glx> but there are only 2 states red/green
18:01:36 <pv2b> and every signal appearing in that list would be green
18:01:45 <pv2b> you can cache that in the map struct
18:01:52 <pv2b> and recalculate on every signal entry
18:01:53 <peter__> signal states are saved in the map
18:02:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> if you say so...
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18:02:37 <Eddi|zuHause2> still, it needs 3 states
18:03:25 <pv2b> you only need to store whether it's reserved or not
18:03:35 <pv2b> whether it's free or not is calculable
18:03:42 <pv2b> actually whether it is reserved is calculable too
18:03:42 <Digitalfox> I wonder if anyone ever worked on a patch that gives the ability to build rail track over a tunnel, just like patch uses, i think they call it enhanced tunnels or something..??
18:04:03 <pv2b> Digitalfox: you can build rail tracks over tunnels already
18:04:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, because you have to store which signal has been reserved for green, and which signal has been reserved for red
18:04:42 <Eddi|zuHause2> because otherwise all entry signals would be red
18:04:57 <pv2b> and they should be unless clearance is requested
18:05:21 <pv2b> so really the only thing that needs to be stored is "green requested?"
18:05:45 <pv2b> whether it's acually red or green can be calculated based on actual grains
18:05:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> pv2b: the difference between an idle-red and an occupied-red is that the first one can be changed to green
18:06:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> you have to store that difference somewhere
18:06:21 <pv2b> if a train is already in that block, don't flip it green yet
18:06:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, because it's 3 states
18:06:47 <pv2b> yeah, but the state of block occupied and block not occupied is calculable from the train positions
18:07:06 <pv2b> it's good fail safe design to do it that way anyway.
18:07:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, because if train reserves in advance, there is no train in the block
18:07:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> then the block is reserved without train
18:07:27 <pv2b> oh, i see, you want to be able to reserve in advance
18:07:55 <pv2b> Digitalfox: ah, tracks above tunnel *entrances*
18:08:25 <Digitalfox> Has anyone worked on that for open'
18:08:28 <peter__> it didn't work very well
18:08:30 <reto> that looks cool Digitalfox :)
18:09:06 <Digitalfox> reto: patch users have that feauture, hope to see it in open soon, if someone codes it ;)
18:09:19 <Eddi|zuHause2> the problem about tracks over tunnel entrances is that they have no trackbase (in the ttdp version)
18:09:35 <reto> the the tiles appear to not that high.. is that an illusion?
18:09:42 <Eddi|zuHause2> that makes it look ugly
18:10:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> reto: tunnel entrances have always been an optical illusion
18:10:13 <Digitalfox> trackbase? Don't understand what you mean Eddi
18:10:39 <reto> Eddi|zuHause2: really? how?
18:10:49 <peter__> gah, my trains are going all over the place :o
18:10:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> track (rails) - trackbase (the brown stuff under the rails) - ground tile (grass/dirt/...)
18:11:49 <LA[lord]> but they use tunnel grf like those in the picture :)
18:11:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> reto: slopes are 8 pixels high, trains are higher than 8 pixels, so the tunnel entrance looks higher than the slope behind it actually is
18:12:17 <peter__> mmm, optical illusion
18:12:36 <reto> the tunnels could be two tiles high :)
18:12:38 <LA[lord]> Eddi, that's very true
18:12:49 <LA[lord]> I just found that out yesterday
18:12:49 <reto> how do you call these? tiles, blocks?
18:13:44 <Eddi|zuHause2> reto: that has been considered, but it needs a map with steeper slopes
18:14:46 <thomas001> make trains smaller ;-)
18:15:05 <reto> nah, I like it how it is :)
18:16:40 <Sacro> lolman: sorry, kernel lockup :(
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18:31:15 <Sacro> HOLY CARP SOMEONE HAS UPDATED THE YELLOW SIGNALS PATCH
18:31:17 <Sacro> WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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18:47:03 <Sacro> i need an SVN client for windows
18:47:46 <Sacro> glx: i just want to be able to svn up under windows
18:48:00 <Wolf01> i set up mine with tortoise and cygwin
18:48:09 <Sacro> mmm, tortoise was considered
18:48:16 <Sacro> i can't find a really nice IDE for linux
18:48:32 <Sacro> gah, i was gonna install Ubuntu on my desktop
18:48:36 <Sacro> but I left the CD somewhere
18:49:02 <Sacro> glx: ooh, does it come with patch cli too?
18:49:33 <glx> gnuwin32.sf.net should have one
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19:06:01 <peter__> bah, custom bridge heads needed :o
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19:42:19 <Sacro> Error 1 fatal error C1083: Cannot open include file: 'dmksctrl.h': No such file or directory c:\OpenTTD\trunk\src\music\dmusic.cpp 13
19:42:45 * pavel1269 is happy that he still can
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20:11:17 <reto> stupid shares.. my mind is boiling .)
20:33:29 <glx> Sacro: I guess you use latest directx sdk
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20:46:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> hm... i could use a few sample graphics...
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21:35:31 <reto> pv2b: I'm about to surrender .)
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22:02:55 <reto> pv2b: the whole share thing
22:05:43 <Bjarni> <reto> stupid shares.. my mind is boiling .) <-- I hope your safety valve is working
22:05:50 <Bjarni> it's a mess every time a mind blows up
22:06:26 <pavel1269> <- same proble mhere :P
22:07:29 <pavel1269> the signals are messed, i don't understand them hard :(
22:07:40 <pv2b> Bjarni: so, any idea about how company values could be calculated including shares, so that you don't get circular references?
22:07:53 <pavel1269> my programmable signals work ... Random();
22:09:28 <Bjarni> never thought about it
22:09:43 <pv2b> Bjarni: it's not as trivial as you might think
22:09:58 <Rubidium_> pv2b, simple: don't allow circular shares
22:10:04 <pavel1269> i dont see what's wrong with shares
22:10:33 <Bjarni> calculate company value + value of shares
22:10:38 <Bjarni> I guess there is some trick to this
22:10:38 *** Draakon has joined #openttd
22:10:59 <Bjarni> I mean... it should be that simple but since you have problems I guess it's a bit more complex than that
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22:41:14 <reto> pv2b: friend of mine found a solution
22:43:13 <reto> can't dont get it yet myself
22:43:25 <reto> well, it's no big deal actually
22:43:31 <reto> he just did a normal mathematical equation
22:43:41 <reto> for A owns 25% of B, B owns 25% of A
22:44:03 <reto> which is just A = 75 + B/4 B = 75 + A/4
22:44:16 <reto> two equations with two unknowns
22:44:31 <reto> didn't thought of something like that (i suck at mathematics :)
22:45:55 <pv2b> so now suddenly we have to make a linear equation solver (not that hard to do though) *<:-)
22:46:06 <pv2b> to calculate company values
22:46:38 <reto> well.. thats what he said as well :)
22:46:52 <reto> but shoudln't there something simpler than a real mathematical solver?
22:47:01 <pv2b> you use newton elimination
22:47:20 <pv2b> gaussian elimination i mean
22:47:32 <reto> I thought newton is already dead?
22:48:31 <reto> hmm.. I guess my chances to successfully write a patch droped significnatly
22:48:52 <reto> well at least it would fix the money cheat I gfuees
22:49:03 <pv2b> reto: hey, if you can figure out where to hook it in, i can write the gaussian eliminator for you.
22:50:49 <reto> I've written small ruby script which does the whole company/share thing, would it make sense to write this gauss-killer first in there?
22:51:00 <reto> print_overview(companies)
22:51:00 <reto> print_overview(companies)
22:51:16 <pv2b> sure, could be done that way
22:51:23 <reto> all which is missing is a valid company-valuae calculator
22:51:25 <pv2b> but it's a waste of time.
22:51:37 <pv2b> easier just to make the gaussian eliminator direct in c++
22:51:52 <reto> how much code would it be?
22:52:12 <reto> and what exactly do I have to provide to you?
22:53:01 <pv2b> tell me how to find the base company values (without shares) and how many people own what shares.
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22:54:09 <reto> I guess I can do that, I would love to play around with that whole thing in a smaller eccosystem
22:54:57 <reto> well, okay, I will gather the info
22:55:13 <reto> I can port your soluation back to ruby afterwards to test it out a bit
23:07:49 <Eddi|zuHause> <reto> I thought newton is already dead? <- so is gauss
23:08:49 <pv2b> hey, this doesn't need any matrix algorithms. but it was damn handy to think of it in terms of matrices.
23:09:01 <pv2b> at least i dont think so
23:11:26 <reto> the only real winner in openttd
23:11:38 <reto> the real one.. is PLAYER_SPECTATOR
23:11:41 <reto> p->share_owners[0] = p->share_owners[1] = p->share_owners[2] = p->share_owners[3] = PLAYER_SPECTATOR;
23:12:51 <pv2b> from smatz patch a few days back i think
23:13:35 <reto> is smatz the guy who developed the ecco system?
23:13:47 <pv2b> no, he patched a security hole
23:13:57 <pv2b> you could get billions of euros in mp due to a share bug *<:-)
23:14:22 <reto> the share bug is described in the wiki
23:14:26 <Noldo> there really hasn't been that much focus on the economy
23:14:54 <Noldo> which reminds me that I really should finnish that CommandCost patch soon
23:15:24 <Noldo> maybe when I have a computer that can compile openttd without overheating
23:15:38 <pv2b> reto: hey, i think i may have mislead you a bit. that equation system solution is a bit flawed
23:16:23 <pv2b> think about it. ok so: A = 10000 + .75B and B = 10000 + .75A
23:16:41 <pv2b> so in this case A=B of course
23:17:17 <pv2b> no, wait it still works. gnn *<:-)
23:18:52 <pv2b> where does "10000" come from?
23:19:18 <Noldo> where did that equation come from?
23:19:31 <pv2b> but we don't know the company value
23:19:41 <reto> the baisc company value :)
23:20:15 <reto> Money CalculateCompanyValue(const Player* p)
23:20:19 <pv2b> ahhhh. now i see why i'm confused
23:20:32 <pv2b> i'm mixing symbols for basic and total company value
23:20:45 <reto> do you have a better name than basic?
23:21:07 <Noldo> so what is the value of companies A and B when they own 75% of each other
23:21:24 <reto> in my example above it was 100
23:21:43 <pv2b> so we can just do A = 10000 + .75A
23:22:19 <Gonozal_VIII> sum can't be more than the sum of base values
23:22:34 <reto> pv2b: how can I install some debug code?
23:22:58 <Noldo> pv2b: that is not the solution
23:23:02 <reto> pv2b: like a debug button which would execute my function
23:23:41 <Gonozal_VIII> A = 10000 * .25 + .75B and B = 10000 * .25 + .75A
23:23:55 <Noldo> pv2b: sorry, my bad, it really is
23:24:24 <Noldo> I really have to wonder how that works in real life
23:24:40 <pv2b> yeah, something's fishy with that
23:24:40 <pv2b> i think something must be counted more than once
23:24:40 <pv2b> if you have 20000 of "stuff" it can't suddenly be worth totally 80000 totally
23:24:41 <pv2b> so that solution is wrong
23:24:41 <pv2b> Gonozal_VIII: doing it like that would mean that the company value would go down when you buy stuff
23:24:43 <pv2b> when you buy shars in it
23:24:55 <pv2b> hey. i think you're on to something.
23:24:59 <Gonozal_VIII> no, when your shares are bought
23:25:01 <Noldo> I think that shares have a book value which doesn't follow the market value too closely
23:25:33 <pv2b> Gonozal_VIII: that's what i meant
23:25:48 <reto> well as I said this afternoon, when a company buys it own shares it nullifies them, increasing the value of the remaining shares
23:25:54 <Noldo> the book value could even be the price paid then buying the shares
23:25:58 <reto> but the model used in openttd is broken anyway
23:26:19 <Gonozal_VIII> has to go down if the other value goes up, global value must stay the same
23:26:41 <reto> both A and B profit from it
23:26:44 <reto> which is complelty nonsense
23:27:23 <reto> well, at least the gains and losses
23:27:35 <Noldo> reto: actually B doesn't own B
23:27:40 <pavel1269> i see problem now :)
23:27:53 <reto> Noldo: well, in fact it does, it can use the $1 gained
23:28:03 <pavel1269> god, i understand what are you trying to solve atm
23:28:04 <reto> Noldo: and A as well, as it can sell the share and get it
23:28:07 <Noldo> reto: it own the $1 but not it self
23:28:17 <Gonozal_VIII> wow, i seem to have huge lag
23:28:38 <pv2b> i just had a burst of text
23:29:13 <pv2b> in reality.... when somebody buys shares, money should be transferred into the company that you buy shares of
23:29:42 <Noldo> unless ofcource the company is issuing new shares
23:29:43 <pv2b> Noldo: because the shares are bought not from a share holder, but from the company itself
23:29:46 <reto> the money should flow to the seller of the share )
23:30:03 <pv2b> Noldo: the company *is* issuing new shares, since the shares are normally "held" by the company it self
23:30:31 <pv2b> that's the big problem here, somebody's buying but nobody's selling
23:30:51 <Noldo> the current system is so messed up that we should waste any thought on it
23:31:09 <pv2b> agreed. how should we make it instead?
23:31:26 <reto> my idea would at least fix it a bit
23:31:32 <reto> and would make it better in the way it currently is
23:31:39 <pv2b> not better, just differnt
23:32:01 <reto> you buy shares, you your company value goes down
23:32:02 <Noldo> reto: what is that you are planning
23:32:06 <reto> you buy more shares until you own 100%
23:32:14 <reto> and then in second you gain all your cash back
23:32:31 <pv2b> in fact, i think this is how it should work. you can choose how many shares you're "emitting" at any given time -- one two or three.
23:32:34 <reto> Noldo: take the share value into considoration whe ncalculating the company value
23:32:57 <reto> pv2b: but then you would still own only 50% of the company
23:33:06 <reto> pv2b: because you are doubeling your capital
23:33:07 <pv2b> when somebody buys a share, that money goes into the company
23:33:18 <reto> so you couldn't take over another company
23:33:31 <reto> the openttd is different
23:33:40 <reto> the openttd system is different than rl (that is)
23:33:49 <pv2b> when somebody sells it, that money goes out again. problem here is you can't guarantee that the issuing company will want to buy the shares back
23:33:51 <reto> correcting this would be a big step
23:33:55 <Noldo> the current system would be best chaged so that you could click a button to buy a whole company
23:34:27 <reto> Noldo: and another button which would be labeld 'buy company and sell all assests'
23:34:33 <Gonozal_VIII> you can't sell it directly, only offer
23:35:00 <reto> anyway, pv2b can we do this change or can't we?
23:35:03 <pv2b> it's still problematic really.
23:35:07 <reto> the other one with the company value?
23:35:12 <Noldo> Railroad tycoon 2 has a better share system
23:35:25 <reto> it just doesn't solve all the problems
23:35:38 <Gonozal_VIII> huge ammount of text again...
23:35:50 <Noldo> don't really know if it really works right of just manages to fool me
23:36:15 <pv2b> reto: i don't agree. i think it's just more complicated and not really better.
23:36:33 <reto> pv2b: but it's not really worse
23:36:47 <reto> and the money cheat wouldn't work anymore .)
23:37:07 <reto> and the company value would be calculated corectly, at the moment its completly wrong
23:37:09 <pv2b> no, but another money cheat would work instead
23:37:27 <reto> have you already spotted one?
23:37:34 <pv2b> first, buy 25% of company A and company B
23:37:49 <pv2b> company A buys 50% of company B
23:37:53 <pv2b> cmopanyt B buys 50% of company A
23:37:59 <pv2b> value of A+B is now more than it used to be
23:38:18 <Gonozal_VIII> value can't come from nowhere
23:38:22 <reto> at least not with the equation
23:38:24 <pv2b> company C sells 25% shares in companies A
23:38:35 <pv2b> Gonozal_VIII: it can in the system reto proposes
23:38:46 <pv2b> and gains money from nothing
23:38:54 <reto> no the value of the company doesn't change
23:39:13 <reto> not if your linear-gauss-killer thing is correct :)
23:39:16 <pv2b> your idea is something like A = 10000 + .75B right?
23:39:49 <reto> A = 75 + B/4 B = 75 + A/4
23:40:04 <Noldo> pv2b: what was the buf that got fixed so time ago?
23:40:21 <reto> then both buy a share and are then at cash 75
23:40:29 <reto> but their value remains at 100
23:41:16 <reto> if you solve aboves equation with a solving system you get 100 for both A and B
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23:41:30 <reto> A = 75 + B/4 B = 75 + A/4
23:41:34 <reto> A = 75 + B/4 and B = 75 + A/4
23:41:50 <reto> A owns 75 cash and /4 of B
23:41:54 <pv2b> let's see if that's correct
23:42:27 <pv2b> A = 100... yeah, it works.
23:42:49 <pv2b> ah, of course, my example actually worked all along
23:43:00 <reto> so if you can solve the equation with many companies and many shares
23:43:05 <pv2b> i ust failed to account for that the money "disapperared" from the company alue first when the share was actually bought
23:43:15 <pv2b> so there was no money coming from nowhere
23:43:19 <pv2b> because it was disappearing
23:45:18 <Noldo> doesn't botter me though
23:45:19 <reto> so we could at least bring the system to a point where it would make a little bit more sense
23:45:39 <reto> Noldo: at the moment the company value would be 75 and 75
23:45:39 <pv2b> [A;B;C*<;D] = [a;b;c;d] + M[A;B;C*<;D]
23:45:46 <pv2b> where M is the share matrix
23:46:07 <pv2b> stupid julsmiley scritp *<:-)
23:46:11 <pv2b> [A;B;C;D] = [a;b;c;d] + M[A;B;C;D]
23:47:06 <Gonozal_VIII> no matter how you sell or buy shares, company value should never change
23:47:32 <Gonozal_VIII> only shifted from money to investment
23:47:38 <pv2b> (id4 - M)[A;B;C;D] = [a;b;c;d]
23:47:55 <pv2b> that's solvable using gauss.
23:47:55 <reto> at the moment this is inccorect Gonozal_VIII
23:48:11 <pv2b> i should probably try it in matlab first thoguh
23:48:23 <reto> okay, so would you support such a patch if it would improve at least that?
23:49:06 <pv2b> i meant [a;b;c;d]\(id4-M)
23:49:20 <pv2b> but wait. (id4-M) might not have an inverse
23:49:34 <Noldo> pv2b: my thoughs exactly
23:50:03 <pv2b> for the case where nobody owns any share, id4-M is just the 4x4 identity matrix
23:50:34 <Eddi|zuHause> all this header rewrite killed a few patches, i assume
23:50:39 <pv2b> hey, it's always invertible because there's always a component of the identity matrix, and M contains always 0s along that diagonal
23:51:09 * pv2b stops being skitsophrenic on irc and on paper instead
23:51:32 <Noldo> construct a non invertible matrix X and solve (id4 -M) = X
23:51:37 <Eddi|zuHause> "schitzo..." freud was speaking german (or something)
23:52:50 <pv2b> Noldo: never mind, it's always invertible. because you can never get two lines that are multiples of each other.
23:53:20 <pv2b> because there's always the 1 from the identity line, and all other elements are always less than one
23:54:36 <reto> whats strings_type.h: SPECSTR_PRESIDENT_NAME = 0x70E7,
23:55:08 <pv2b> reto: something like "Company President Name" or whatever
23:55:54 <pv2b> oh, that's just a unique id
23:58:02 <reto> SetDParam sets the value ..
23:58:09 <reto> and DrawString draws it?
23:58:24 <pv2b> oh, wait a second. this might cause some floating point headaches.
23:58:57 <pv2b> unless i find an integer way to solve this
continue to next day ⏵
