IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2007-12-08
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00:00:33 <Bjarni> Sacro: you forgot one word
00:01:19 <Prof_Frink> Sacro: Speak for yourself, Sigmund
00:01:25 <Bjarni> Freud caught up with you
00:01:48 <Prof_Frink> Bjarni: Great minds...
00:02:21 <Bjarni> the guy who made me see goatse thinks like me >_<
00:02:31 <Sacro> Prof_Frink: did you show him /board?
00:02:55 <Prof_Frink> I didn't even mention the goat. I only said hello
00:03:23 <Sacro> now that's a cool picture
00:03:34 *** Sacro was kicked by Bjarni (nobody can fool me now)
00:04:04 * Prof_Frink twitches slowly towards images.google.co.uk
00:04:05 <Gonozal_VIII> not paranoid at all^^
00:04:51 *** Sacro was kicked by Bjarni (I presume that once again you try to fool me)
00:04:52 <glx> can someone type !password? (I want to test a script)
00:05:06 * Prof_Frink gets distracted by /board
00:05:07 <Bjarni> I'm not falling for that
00:05:24 *** Bjarni was kicked by DorpsGek (wrong channel)
00:05:24 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
00:05:52 <glx> I should make it less sensitive :)
00:07:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> should rather only react on line start ;)
00:10:36 <Prof_Frink> It's a shame you can't kick people into channels
00:11:03 <Bjarni> I see that you try to kick Sacro into #christian
00:11:21 * Prof_Frink kicks Bjarni in the goat
00:11:29 <Bjarni> I'm not clicking your links
00:11:34 <Sacro> ChanServ has changed the topic to: @ = pope hat, % = priest robes, + = cross denoting a Christian, +b = excommunicated | type "bible book chapter:verse" to use the bible bot
00:12:54 <Prof_Frink> Did you say "I was touched by his noodly appendage"?
00:12:54 <Gonozal_VIII> hack the channel, join with nick god and kick the pope :-)
00:13:12 <Prof_Frink> Now *there*'s an idea for a game
00:13:29 <Prof_Frink> Kick Pope Palpatine!
00:13:35 <Bjarni> now where is it that a man rides a donkey that the bible calls ass
00:13:41 <Bjarni> make it quote that one XD
00:14:04 <Prof_Frink> or some of the hawt secks
00:14:33 <glx> should be better now (only check the first "word")
00:14:50 *** Eddi|zuHause2 was kicked by DorpsGek (wrong channel)
00:14:55 *** Eddi|zuHause2 has joined #openttd
00:15:57 *** Sacro was kicked by Bjarni (stop with the freak links)
00:16:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> that's probably exactly his mind level...
00:16:26 <Gonozal_VIII> !wordofthegreatpasswhichlieswithintheancientrunes
00:17:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> you shall not pass! </gandalf>>
00:17:32 <Gonozal_VIII> i can't that's why i ask the bot :-)
00:17:34 <Sacro> glx: did you visit qdb?
00:18:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> "Harkandalf" would say: "Ey, du kommst hier nich rein!"
00:20:51 <Bjarni> I haven't looked at it in ages
00:21:01 <Bjarni> maybe I should after you mention it
00:22:06 <Gonozal_VIII> i'm on qdb now O_o
00:22:08 *** Eddi|zuHause2 was kicked by DorpsGek (wrong channel)
00:22:11 *** Eddi|zuHause2 has joined #openttd
00:22:21 <Sacro> Gonozal_VIII: heh, me too
00:22:24 <Sacro> but never an accepted one
00:22:30 <glx> Eddi|zuHause2: it skips spaces ;)
00:22:30 <Bjarni> why would anybody put a quote on qdb where I get kicked?
00:22:54 <Gonozal_VIII> because people like to see you getting kicked?
00:23:12 *** Progman has joined #openttd
00:23:12 <Eddi|zuHause2> i was once accepted to german-bash
00:23:25 <Prof_Frink> Bah, this #openttd is fail. My one is far more heavy metal
00:23:25 <Bjarni> hey somebody is making fun of us....
00:24:13 <glx> someone is stealing the logs
00:24:14 <Bjarni> who is posting our conversation?
00:25:15 <Gonozal_VIII> that isn't even funny without timestamps
00:26:35 <Bjarni> maybe the guy who did this is hiding in a timezone where we would know who it was if he did post time on it
00:27:08 <Bjarni> a bot is posting our conversation on qdb.us?
00:27:14 <Prof_Frink> Join the new, heavy metal #openttd to escape from his vile clutches
00:28:30 <Bjarni> I know how we can stop this. We can just stop saying anything funny and not making fools of ourselves
00:28:36 <Bjarni> then there is nothing to commit
00:29:03 <fjb> Bjarni: That will not work...
00:30:23 <Bjarni> the lurker will make up stuff?
00:35:16 *** SpBot was kicked by Bjarni (wrong channel)
00:35:18 <SpBot> Look, I'm a bot that logs this channel because someone asked me to do that. If you don't want me to do that, use <insert stuff here>
00:35:47 <Gonozal_VIII> <insert stuff here>
00:35:58 <Bjarni> SpBot: one thing is to log this channel... but to post it on qdb.us
00:36:33 <SpBot> I stand by my right to remain silent
00:37:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> in america, that is usually refered to as "call the 5th [amendment]"
00:40:02 * Bjarni is about to burn the smallest DVD he has ever seen
00:40:47 <Bjarni> luckily it's a rewriteable
00:40:55 <Bjarni> otherwise it would be a waste
00:41:09 <tokai> whats wrong with usb sticks? :)
00:41:35 <glx> tokai: ttry to put an usb stick in a dvd player ;)
00:41:57 <Bjarni> <tokai> whats wrong with usb sticks? :) <-- they has a compatibility issue with normal DVD players connected to TVs
00:42:09 *** Wolf01|AWAY is now known as Wolf01
00:42:40 <Bjarni> gee... now it's reencoding everything to PAL
00:43:07 <LeviathNL> Wolf01, any progress on brickland?
00:43:18 <Bjarni> I guess it's needed but it feels like it takes ages to do so considering it's just 4 minutes
00:43:28 <Sacro> [00:43] <Bjarni> I guess it's needed but it feels like it takes ages to do so considering it's just 4 minutes <- hahaha XD
00:43:45 <Wolf01> no, sorry, weekends are real-life dedicated :P
00:44:16 <Wolf01> maybe i can do something now, if i don't nod over the keyboard
00:44:33 <Gonozal_VIII> i'm starting to like that brickland thing since it doesn't hurt the eyes with toyland ground tiles anymore
00:44:43 <Sacro> Wolf01: i have some lego renders
00:44:55 <Sacro> but i need to find out how to render and import them into OpenTTD
00:45:02 <Sacro> i am off for christmas, so I'd like to try and lend a hand
00:46:24 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause2: SpBot's not in America, is he?
00:46:49 <Eddi|zuHause2> i never even implied that
00:49:48 <Bjarni> hehe... took 6 minutes to encode.... and virtually no time to burn
00:50:06 * Bjarni wonders if he could get a faster encoder
00:50:32 <Bjarni> maybe setting quality to max isn't the most CPU friendly setting
00:51:32 <Gonozal_VIII> for me it also takes longer than the video itself to encode
00:52:00 <Eddi|zuHause2> my encoder takes for 40 minutes of video around 4h
00:53:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, xvid took only 2 hours, but the quality with x264 is much better with the same size
00:53:35 <Eddi|zuHause2> but it takes twice the time...
00:54:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> buy me a faster cpu. ;)
00:54:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> call it a christmas present ;)
00:55:21 <fjb> Why should I do that? :-)
00:55:29 <Gonozal_VIII> oh lord won't you buy me a fast cpu
00:56:23 <Gonozal_VIII> i already own a mercedes, so he could at least give me the cpu...
00:56:29 <fjb> I should try to buy a faster cpu as long as can still buy cpus for my pc.
00:57:06 <Belugas> Gonozal_VIII, you made me nostalgic of old Janis :)
00:57:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> most of the times, i end up buying a complete system anyway
00:57:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> hm... watching "TV Polonia" does not make a lot of sense...
00:57:38 <fjb> I don't have money for a complete system.
00:58:31 <Eddi|zuHause2> last time i bought a used system
00:59:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> but it had really good components in it, ones that i would not find in the next best ALDI PC
00:59:12 <fjb> I have my own ideas how a system should be. I don't like it fast and noisy.
00:59:46 <Gonozal_VIII> actually aldi (here hofer) pcs are quite good.. at least the ones they sell here
01:00:40 <Gonozal_VIII> just use a laptop... doesn't make noise
01:01:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> some laptops get so hot, you should not use them on your lap
01:01:41 <Bjarni> speaking of Christmas presents
01:01:41 <fjb> Laptops are expensive an don't have good displays.
01:01:52 <SpComb> Gonozal_VIII: laptops can easily make a lot of noise
01:01:53 <Bjarni> I could use a Mac Pro with OSX 10.5
01:02:12 <SpComb> fjb: don't many laptop displays have better DPI than desktop displays?
01:02:20 <fjb> A big case is good for making a quiet pc.
01:02:22 <Bjarni> <SpComb> Gonozal_VIII: laptops can easily make a lot of noise <-- they can actually make more annoying noises than a desktop
01:02:22 <Gonozal_VIII> i have a 17" acer aspire... does its job nicely
01:02:37 <Gonozal_VIII> mine doesn't make any noise
01:02:40 * SpComb has bad experiences with Fujitsu Siemens Amilo laptops and noise levels
01:02:42 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r11591 /trunk/src/ (window.cpp window.h): -Codechange: remove now unused widget accessors.
01:02:43 <Bjarni> in fact a whole lot of notebooks makes more noises than iMacs or Mac minis
01:02:51 <Gonozal_VIII> except when the dvd drive is running fast...
01:02:55 <SpComb> it definately made more noise than my desktop
01:03:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> i only know that my (used) PC is much quiter than my brother's PC, which came from a media discounter
01:04:06 <Gonozal_VIII> the only thing i hear if i listen closely is the hd
01:04:09 <fjb> DPI ist not all that counts. A high DPI number makes Windows harder to use. Ok, I'm not using Windows aniway. But contrast and color redering are also important. And labtop displays are really bad at that.
01:04:14 <Gonozal_VIII> when the head moves...
01:06:52 <Gonozal_VIII> why does he give me that link? :S
01:07:15 <Tefad> because you're going to die soon? i have no idea.
01:07:35 <Bjarni> is it goatse wannabe something?
01:07:46 <Bjarni> or a real renting company?
01:07:57 <Bjarni> I mean... can I click it?
01:08:30 <Gonozal_VIII> nothing goatseish
01:08:38 <Tefad> what do they do, come back after burial and reposess the coffin?
01:09:09 <Bjarni> you have to rent it for 20 years
01:09:23 <fjb> What about a fire burial?
01:09:33 <Bjarni> and then you have to return it in the same condition as you got it in
01:09:38 <Tefad> then you lose your deposit ; )
01:09:58 <Gonozal_VIII> i'm sure they offer fire proof ones
01:10:36 <Bjarni> maybe Bartleby has financial interests in this company and PMs everybody
01:11:21 <fjb> I didn't get it. Maybe I'm looking too healthy.
01:12:49 <fjb> He should offer it in Transylvania.
01:12:57 <Gonozal_VIII> they're hiring hitmen
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01:17:11 <Gonozal_VIII> do it yourself funeral set :D
01:17:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> buy one, get one free ;)
01:18:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> funeral, the party game
01:18:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> and as an addon
01:18:46 <SpComb> You're all going to die. Get it? Haha
01:18:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> funeral, the family game
01:19:49 <Eddi|zuHause2> a propos morbid... dexter is so great ;)
01:20:28 <Bjarni> "This is pretty funny. Not only do these guys drop the coffin while trying to lower it into the grave but some person tries to catch it and gets dragged down with it."
01:20:41 <Eddi|zuHause2> but wasn't that in monkey island 2? "stan's used coffins"?
01:21:04 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r11592 /trunk/src/ (10 files): -Codechange: Use the Window member RaiseButtons and remove the now useless RaiseWindowButtons function
01:21:20 <Bjarni> but now that you mention it... I think you could get used ones
01:21:37 <SpComb> second-hand gravestones
01:21:41 <Bjarni> he sells life insurance in MI3
01:22:19 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, i am pretty sure it was used ships, and used coffins
01:22:30 <Bjarni> <SpComb> second-hand gravestones <-- I saw an article on the net from somebody selling a tombstone (only used once) and it said that it's perfect for somebody named Homer
01:22:36 <Gonozal_VIII> and used life insurances?
01:22:41 <Eddi|zuHause2> i never finished MI3
01:23:38 <Bjarni> I like the sailing stuff in MI3
01:24:51 <Bjarni> I think he was but I can't remember what he tried to sell
01:25:57 <Bjarni> timeshare summer houses or something
01:26:02 <SpComb> You: do you make lots of friends?
01:26:02 <SpComb> Santa: What are the ingredients?
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01:30:39 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r11593 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Cleanup: remove some forgotten pieces of evidence of a mischief
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01:35:34 <fjb> I'm getting old. I don't find the url for temporarely posting images anymore. :-(
01:36:12 <SpComb> why've you got that look on your face?
01:36:40 <fjb> Hm, it wasn't pastbin what I'm looking for.
01:37:11 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r11594 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Fix: don't allow changing network only patches settings from console when not in network game
01:37:26 <SpComb> You: gossip? Gossip about who?
01:37:27 <SpComb> Santa: Allison said he that gets really annoying because he know what he say and I do not have to tell him speak freely. Cathy said she send him a mail with the subject last mail last word from him.
01:37:44 <SpComb> this santabot.com thing isn't even half-bad, although I do wonder slightly why it's so slow
01:38:12 <fjb> No, something else. I got it from somebody here. I forgot to bookmark it.
01:38:33 <Sacro> SpComb: isn't that the one that talks about oral sex?
01:38:40 <SpComb> no, that's the MSN one
01:40:50 <Sacro> "Columnist claims that there are fewer Pearl Harbor survivors alive today that at any time since the attack. Thanks for clearing that up for us"]
01:42:19 <Eddi|zuHause3> like once in "Headlines" [Tonight Show, NBC]: "Dead person remains dead."
01:42:47 <SpComb> this thing seriously passes the turing test
01:43:17 <Bjarni> actually I read about a guy who died and when they started the autopsy he woke up
01:43:38 <Eddi|zuHause3> no, that was a heroes episode, Bjarni :p
01:44:11 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause3: I don't know about heroes (never seen it) but I refer to reality
01:44:17 <Bjarni> something that most people don't know
01:45:01 <Gonozal_VIII> many people are declared dead without actually being dead
01:45:17 <Eddi|zuHause3> anyway, back in the 17th century, a lot of people were declared dead very fast, and because of the failure rate, the buried people got attached a bell to their finger, in case they were not really dead
01:45:30 <Gonozal_VIII> especially when they were outside and cold
01:45:49 <Bjarni> I saw a guy on TV yesterday... he was driving 120 km/h and crashed. He wasn't wearing a seatbelt so he flew out of the front window and landed on the road... apparently with only minor injuries
01:46:18 <Bjarni> they did take him to the hospital with great care because he might have injured his back but he could move his feet without any problems
01:46:45 <Eddi|zuHause3> "kids, please don't try this at home"
01:46:57 * SpComb waits for a response while the bot looks up the term on wikipedia
01:47:10 <Gonozal_VIII> why not? if nothing stopped him instantly he can with luck just roll out on the asphalt
01:47:28 <Bjarni> around the other cars driving 120 km/h?
01:47:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> speaking of this, in america, they released the first season of sesame street on DVD, but they advise to not show it to children
01:47:53 <Bjarni> it has already been said on this channel
01:48:18 <Eddi|zuHause3> like in one episode, they have a stranger ask a kid to come home with him, to "meet his wife"
01:48:42 <Bjarni> don't you mean "act like his wife"?
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02:11:10 <Bjarni> using google earth to spy on people
02:15:03 <fjb> Like to be spied on? Go to the UK. :-)
02:15:36 <Bjarni> but I spy perfectly good on you
02:15:40 <Bjarni> you just don't know it
02:16:03 <fjb> I'm sitting under an anti spy roof. :-P
02:26:38 <Bjarni> that is what I want you to think
02:27:17 <Gonozal_VIII> i thought for a moment it would zoom to me...
02:27:55 <Bjarni> so you thought that you were showing up on youtube without knowing it... good
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02:34:27 <fjb> It's really difficuld to build a northern american railway network. :-(
02:39:13 <Ammller> still awake on this american times
02:39:38 <fjb> Yes, I'm building an american railway. :-)
02:39:59 <fjb> Sadly they usually use a single track even on the main lines.
02:40:32 <Ammller> hmm, is there a documentation about this type?
02:41:33 <fjb> It is stated im the usset. And I confirmed it via google maps.
02:41:45 <Ammller> seriously, do they also have non diesel engines?
02:42:14 <fjb> Yes, they have electric engines, especially in the Rocky Mountains.
02:42:40 <Bjarni> specially in Rocky Mountains?
02:42:47 <Bjarni> I thought it was on the east coast
02:43:10 <fjb> They also need it in the Rockies.
02:43:19 <Bjarni> I don't know any electrified lines west of Chicago
02:43:56 <fjb> Have never been there ofcourse.
02:44:02 <Bjarni> it's mainly UP who drives in the Rockies and they use diesel
02:44:20 <Bjarni> I think they have like 11.000 diesel locomotives
02:44:47 <Bjarni> then again they more or less exclusively use diesel-electric ;)
02:45:04 <fjb> Hm, are catanaries visible on google maps?
02:45:23 <Bjarni> but only if it's present in real life
02:46:31 <fjb> My railway isn't electrified yet. I'm fighting against locks at the single track lines. :-(
02:47:32 <gono_nick> locks? too many signals :-)
02:48:00 <fjb> No, trains longer than the platforms of the stations.
02:48:15 <Bjarni> actually I don't know if catenary is visible on google maps
02:48:19 <gono_nick> use longer platforms
02:48:25 <Bjarni> they are on google earth
02:48:37 <fjb> Not enough room between the mountains...
02:49:11 <fjb> Google earth was Windows only last time I was looking.
02:49:21 <Bjarni> 39°31'3.08"N,119°57'40.82"W <-- look at this one. It's the line from Chicago to San Francisco. It's clear that it has no catenary and the details are good enough to ensure that this is correct
02:49:25 <gono_nick> on map 24 i followed tram tracks yesterday to find the insitute building where i had to hand in some homework... i saw the catenary there
02:49:29 <Bjarni> we can count the sleepers if we like
02:49:41 <Bjarni> we can see the blades in the fans on the roof of the locomotives
02:53:03 <Bjarni> so it's in the mountains
02:53:45 <Bjarni> you go find evidence of electrified lines in the west (and I don't mean trams) and then I would like to see it
02:56:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r11595 /trunk/src/ (window.cpp window.h): -Codechange: add a new member to Window struct, based on its function counterpart HandleButtonClick.
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03:11:29 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r11596 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Use the Window member HandleButtonClick and remove its now useless counterpart function
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03:21:21 <LittleMikey> Goooood morning everyone
03:26:30 <gono_nick> any maptype but toyland. <-- no toyland?^^
03:26:57 <Sacro> gono_nick: toyland makes your eyes bleed
03:27:29 <LittleMikey> Ooh, you check out my thread ^_^
03:27:30 *** gono_nick is now known as Gonozal_VIII
03:27:56 <LittleMikey> Well, basically, in an ideal world, I want the winner to be able to make his savegame the default openttd title game
03:28:13 <LittleMikey> and if the winner was toyland, i'm sure 90% of players would want me to die
03:30:01 <LittleMikey> See this is an idea I had about four days ago, but every day I think of how awesome it could be if I got a majority of community support
03:30:30 <Gonozal_VIII> i made my own titlegame some weeks ago
03:30:49 <LittleMikey> Please submit it :)
03:30:59 <Gonozal_VIII> nothing special, just modified the original title game to show openttd stuff
03:32:41 <LittleMikey> It counts nonetheless ^_^ Besides, I only have two submissions now, I want more. MORE!
03:37:28 <Gonozal_VIII> i found it in the recycle bin
03:44:46 <Gonozal_VIII> there are drive through bus/truck stops, an intercontinantal airport, helidepot, some presignals, a bridge over diagonal tracks and maybe other stuff that i forgot afterwards^^
03:46:15 <glx> <Sacro> any devs around? <-- I am, but good night :)
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09:36:25 <BiA|pavel-css> oh no, porno time outed :)
09:42:05 <Wolf01> thank you for awaken me, but i'm not interested, they aren't lego :P
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09:49:16 <BiA|pavel-css> Gonozal_VIII: i must see it in game, i dont know how they look :) even with sun shining to my eyes :)
09:55:18 <Gonozal_VIII> [10:42:04] Wolf01: thank you for awaken me, but i'm not interested, they aren't lego :P <-- sure about that?
09:57:01 <Wolf01> they aren't conic or oval :P
09:57:22 <Gonozal_VIII> loooook again :P
10:03:24 <Gonozal_VIII> so? legoish enough?^^
10:05:08 <Gonozal_VIII> making tiny pictures is so easy :-) take some random picture(s), scale them down to tiny, remove every pixel that looks bad, add some pixel that look good, change some pixel to look better... ready :D
10:08:52 <Gonozal_VIII> ok... with normal trees i end up changing almost every single pixel in the image one by one which takes looong... but still easy
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11:10:35 <BiA|pavel-css> anyone online? :)
11:12:02 <BiA|pavel-css> i need help with setting up my SDT_CONDVAR as i dont understand variables which ar eshown
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12:25:07 <Gonozal_VIII> "cannot read truecolour pcx files!"
12:25:35 <Gonozal_VIII> so that seems to be the problem... how can i de-truecolorify it?
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12:45:04 <Gonozal_VIII> ha, i found a way :D i'll encode the grf, load it ingame, take a screenshot, look for pink stuff in the screenshot, select the colors that should be the pink stuff in the pcx and replace them with working colours, encode the grf again, no pink stuff anymore... i hope^^
12:52:35 <LeviathNL> can't you convert it to the ttd palette in gimp?
12:52:50 <Rubidium> ofcourse one can do that
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12:53:53 <cdyson37> hey chaps, love the beta but (for the first time ever) i have a crash to report...
12:53:54 <Rubidium> but I know somebody who has a TTD palette for GIMP
12:54:11 <LeviathNL> if you already have the palette Image > Mode > Indexed > select palette
12:55:20 <Rubidium> cdyson37: what's up?
12:55:44 <cdyson37> random crash... not sure what i was doing. building some track along coastal tiles / scrolling around. moderately built-up map
12:56:12 <cdyson37> was worried might be a h/ware problem on my pc (i'm paranoid!) but doesn't seem to be
12:56:31 <Gonozal_VIII> i don't have a palette thing...
12:56:46 <Rubidium> then make a bugreport and attach the crash.log and crash.dmp files
12:57:24 <Gonozal_VIII> and i don't know how to get gimp to use english
12:58:05 <Rubidium> just delete the translations for the other languages ;)
12:59:14 <cdyson37> from flyspray: "you may not attempt to log in". i'm not _that_ incompetent...
12:59:53 <Gonozal_VIII> that worked rubidium, renamed de folder to de_ :-) thanks
12:59:54 <Rubidium> cdyson37: enough people that are :(
13:00:10 <Rubidium> Gonozal_VIII: hacky, but effective ;)
13:00:18 <Rubidium> breaks on the next update though
13:00:19 <cdyson37> meh. any idea what category i should put this under?
13:01:26 <Rubidium> probably just backend/core
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13:09:06 <Gonozal_VIII> hmmm gimp can't open its own palettes to edit... unknown file type
13:09:32 <Rubidium> cdyson37: now wait for the person that can decipher those crash dumps ;)
13:10:29 <cdyson37> i'm a very paranoid person. if somebody doesn't find a bug i'll be running memtest86 all night
13:10:54 <Rubidium> it isn't necessarily something memtest will show
13:11:44 <cdyson37> true. my system's okay really, nvidia stress test is fine, video stress tests for valve games are fine. i just got a bit paranoid with a bout of pagefaults on bootup (it turns out turning off all non M$ services on boot fixes this)
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13:30:16 <Rubidium> cdyson37: when did it approximately crash (game-date)
13:33:49 <cdyson37> very very shortly after taking that save
13:33:59 <cdyson37> i built a station and was just finishing up laying some track
13:34:06 <cdyson37> so within a minute or two of the save
13:34:19 <Rubidium> did you change anything about the tracks/trains in that time?
13:34:45 <cdyson37> just building i think. *might* have created a new train, don't remember
13:35:43 <Gonozal_VIII> double headed train? :-)
13:36:02 <Rubidium> Gonozal_VIII: not the problem
13:36:18 <Rubidium> because then he would have known he was chaning a train
13:36:48 <Gonozal_VIII> for most people...
13:37:04 <Gonozal_VIII> other people.. like me... forget all kinds of stuff fast
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13:38:09 <Rubidium> Gonozal_VIII: scrolling through the game when it crashes vs crashes when changing train should be enough difference to notice when the game crashes
13:38:10 <cdyson37> nah was a centennial i think
13:38:41 <cdyson37> in retrospect i should have made an emergency save so i could show exactly what the setup was
13:39:18 <Rubidium> anyhow, the crash is either some very unique situation in the pathfinder, but that should've caused it to 'crash' somewhere else as the assertions are enabled or it is something with the hardware.
13:39:23 <Gonozal_VIII> it crashed but you could have made a save?
13:39:39 <cdyson37> i was given an option to make an "emergency save"
13:40:09 <cdyson37> hmm. windows was having a funny day. could be something with the os
13:40:13 <Gonozal_VIII> nice... never noticed that because i never had a crash...
13:40:32 <cdyson37> this is my first, not bad going
13:40:47 <Gonozal_VIII> good quality game :-)
13:42:40 <cdyson37> not convinced it's the hardware unless it's a very recent problem. TF2 and bioshock and things run neatly and probably tax the hardware a little bit more than openttd :)
13:43:08 <Rubidium> it's not about taxing the hardware
13:43:27 <cdyson37> well you know what i mean
13:43:57 <cdyson37> one other thing: could it have been a failed malloc? was running boinc in the background and loads of other stuff and memory was very low
13:43:58 <Rubidium> I'm fairly certain OpenTTD uses other parts of the CPU than TF2/bioshock do
13:45:13 <Rubidium> TF2/Bioshock probably drain your GPU and not as much of the CPU
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13:46:14 <cdyson37> they certainly do drain the gpu. but the cpu won't exactly be idle (havoc physics etc) and they use loads of ram. so if there's a h/w problem they will often (not always) find it. my last pc had cooling issues that usually took a high end game to bring out
13:48:01 <Rubidium> looks like the Windows binary had the assertions not enabled
13:48:24 <Rubidium> so yes, it looks like it is a out-of-memory crash
13:48:32 <cdyson37> yaay! an explanation!
13:48:47 <cdyson37> i did get a "low virtual memory" warning soon after so it makes some sense
13:49:06 <cdyson37> thanks very much for your time
13:53:35 <Gonozal_VIII> gimp just shocked me..
13:54:15 <Rubidium> hmm, force feedback ;)
13:54:23 <Gonozal_VIII> i made a palette, over 400 clicks to do so... saved it and closed gimp... opened the palettes folder, nothing there...
13:55:10 <cdyson37> (sorry disregard that comment i'm being an idiot)
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13:56:23 <Gonozal_VIII> it put it into the documents and settings folder...
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14:00:56 <cdyson37> i would like to thank all of you intensely cool people for your help. i'm off to lunch, toodle pip!
14:02:18 <Gonozal_VIII> hmmm i didn't help him... *passes thanks on to rubidium*
14:04:08 <Bjarni> I say the reward is equal to my help
14:04:35 <Bjarni> I mean... I didn't get anything
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14:22:18 <Gonozal_VIII> wow, i've got my own openttd palette now
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14:29:41 <BiA|pavel-css> the MS must be kidding me!
14:31:01 <Gonozal_VIII> unrecognized palette, aborting....
14:31:13 <BiA|pavel-css> if($IP == $MY_IP && $Day%2) { IDontSeeIt(); } else { ISeeIt(); }
14:32:21 <glx> BiA|pavel-css: better format and reinstalll ;)
14:32:31 <BiA|pavel-css> Gonozal_VIII: can you please take a try to connect to my server ? :)
14:32:39 <BiA|pavel-css> glx: i guess, you dont see my server :)
14:33:53 <BiA|pavel-css> i really wonder, how possibl, every second day MS see me ...
14:33:59 <BiA|pavel-css> how is possible
14:34:06 <Rubidium> and don't blame the MS as that has not been changed for 'decades'
14:34:24 <Rubidium> and about 140 others get shown on the MS, so that isn't an issue either
14:34:37 <BiA|pavel-css> now, only MS see me :)
14:37:06 <Gonozal_VIII> AAAAH it's pink!!!
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14:40:39 <Gonozal_VIII> it only uses the colors that are marked as normal in the windows palette, how can it be pink
14:42:45 <Gonozal_VIII> how can anybody make grfs if it's that complicated?
14:44:40 <Rubidium> it is not complicated
14:44:54 <Gonozal_VIII> so i'm just too stupid?
14:45:45 <Rubidium> but where did you get the colors from?
14:47:17 <Gonozal_VIII> i selected al of the normal ones manually and added them to a new palette...
14:47:28 <Gonozal_VIII> converted to that palette... pink
14:47:50 <Rubidium> the palette needs to be in exactly the same order IIRC
14:48:01 <Rubidium> but I'm not sure about that
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14:48:20 <glx> why not just "steal" the palette from ttd grfs?
14:48:40 <Gonozal_VIII> that's possible?
14:49:12 <glx> decode grf, open pcx, save palette
14:49:40 <Gonozal_VIII> 1. done, 2. done, 3. ?
14:51:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11597 /trunk/src/ (13 files in 4 dirs): -Change: replace all remaining instances of (re|m|c)alloc with (Re|M|C)allocT and add a check for out-of-memory situations to the *allocT functions.
14:51:47 <BiA|pavel-css> now whole my patch pack will be broken ... i know that :)
14:53:41 *** Frostregen_ is now known as Frostregen
14:55:03 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11598 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Change [FS#1520]: some tooltips of the main toolbar did not 'enumerate' all options in a drop down menu.
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15:07:03 <Gonozal_VIII> wow, now every single pixel is pink
15:21:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: bjarni * r11599 /trunk/src/video/cocoa/ (cocoa_v.mm wnd_quartz.mm wnd_quickdraw.mm):
15:21:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Change: [OSX] 10.4 will now use quickdraw for window mode instead of quartz
15:21:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: The reason is that quickdraw is way faster (try fast forward)
15:21:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: 10.5 will still use quartz as it can't handle quickdraw.
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15:38:15 <LittleMikey> Well, I guess its not as bad as being rickrolled
15:39:41 <Bjarni> I didn't say that the animation is any good but I think my comment is ;)
15:45:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: ooooooooold
15:46:19 <LittleMikey> Thats what they say about LOLcode ^_^
15:47:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r11600 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 2 dirs): -Cleanup: remove extra out-of-memory checks, since it's now done in *allocT functions.
15:54:23 <LittleMikey> *whoops wrong channel
15:54:52 <Bjarni> when you write something in a wrong channel, please make it something a bit more funny
15:55:38 <Eddi|zuHause> like your password :p
15:55:54 <LittleMikey> people have passwords these days?
15:58:28 <LittleMikey> Well, earlier I was thinking of a cool new way to have a password. Instead of a text based password, it be a series of mouse movements. For example, drawing a certian shape on the screen. Would be much harder to crack IMO
15:58:29 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
15:59:34 <Bjarni> it would give you a problem in precision
15:59:56 <Bjarni> either you have to make it correctly with minor margin for error or it will be easy to crack
16:00:35 <Bjarni> it's kind using your own voice in a mic. That way people can even hear your password and still not log in
16:00:42 <Bjarni> works until you get a sore throat
16:01:06 <Bjarni> puberty happened ages ago
16:01:12 <LittleMikey> I really want one of those fingerprint scanners on my laptop ^_^
16:01:15 <LittleMikey> That is just awesome
16:01:45 <Bjarni> once our lecture was delayed
16:02:00 <Bjarni> the professor couldn't log on to his computer using his fingerprint :P
16:02:07 <Smoovious> would also make it harder for drunk people to be online
16:02:45 <Bjarni> it would also mean that you would have to have clean hands
16:02:52 <Smoovious> maybe he was an imposter
16:03:33 <Bjarni> I was about to say that it would prevent perverts from the internet but I guess they log on before getting messed up
16:03:48 <glx> grr can't remember how to switch terminal in screen
16:04:45 *** xerxes is now known as shodan
16:04:53 <Eddi|zuHause> <LittleMikey> Well, earlier I was thinking of a cool new way to have a password. Instead of a text based password, it be a series of mouse movements. For example, drawing a certian shape on the screen. Would be much harder to crack IMO <- "das ist das haus vom nikolaus"
16:05:20 <Bjarni> glx: I use a monitor :p
16:05:33 <Bjarni> though I usually call it the screen
16:07:30 <LittleMikey> I have a laptop... not sure if you'd classify it as a "monitor" as such
16:07:59 <LittleMikey> Eddi|zuHause: I cant speak enough German to understand that :(
16:08:42 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a childen's game, goal is to draw the shape without drawing a line twice, and without releasing the pen
16:09:52 <Eddi|zuHause> it's accompanied by the rhyme, which has exactly the same number of syllables as there are lines in the shape
16:10:35 <Bjarni> glx: where is your script... I need it right now
16:11:18 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause: those drawings are great fun
16:11:38 <glx> strange the script is present
16:11:39 <Eddi|zuHause> the point is, in germany it is so well known, that you can be certain that a significant amount of people will use it as "password"
16:11:48 <Eddi|zuHause> glx: you don't have op?
16:12:11 <LittleMikey> Well, i'm going to bed, its too late ^_^ goodnight all.
16:15:24 <Bjarni> glx: your script triggers on too little now... yesterday it triggered on too much
16:20:41 *** BiA|pavel-css was kicked by DorpsGek (wrong channel)
16:20:41 *** BiA|pavel-css has joined #openttd
16:21:08 <BiA|pavel-css> glx: is that really what it have to do?
16:21:48 <Eddi|zuHause> in 10 out of 10 cases, people meant to go to #openttdcoop instead
16:22:13 <glx> I can modify the reason to state that too :)
16:23:33 *** Osai was kicked by DorpsGek (Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.)
16:24:08 <Osai> I'll never do it again, but that's really funny... lol
16:24:24 <glx> of course it works only when I'm here
16:24:45 <BiA|pavel-css> kick yourself then ;)
16:25:08 <glx> I'm sure DorpsGek could do it by itself but I don't know how, and it's not my bot
16:26:07 <Osai> DorpsGek is the same bot as _42_ in our chan, maybe DorpsGek could could send a notice to the person and _42_ an invitation
16:26:45 <Osai> that wouldn't be as rude as the current solution, but as you stated, its neither yours nor my bot
16:26:46 <glx> no there are not the same, DorpsGek is supybot based
16:27:35 <Osai> but they are all TrueBrains
16:28:10 <Osai> btw. we have some problems with new industries
16:28:24 <Bjarni> glx: you should auto ban people for 15 sec to take care of auto rejoin XD
16:29:16 <Osai> Bjarni: i.e. colloquy for mac supports a 'wait x seconds until rejoin' function :P
16:29:36 <Osai> I'll set it to 16 then ;)
16:30:12 <DorpsGek> Bjarni: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
16:30:38 <DorpsGek> Bjarni: Error: That operation cannot be done in a channel.
16:31:29 <BiA|pavel-css> O_o i should forward 3978 too right? :)
16:31:59 <Osai> before I was not able to play in window-mode anymore
16:32:06 <Bjarni> BiA|pavel-css: it's only if you completely block the port
16:32:11 <Bjarni> you only need it outgoing
16:32:18 <Bjarni> the master server will never call you
16:32:57 <Bjarni> Osai: I hope I did it right. Otherwise you will have to tell me
16:33:39 <Bjarni> Osai: be aware that 10.5 will use quartz and there is no way around that so upgrading might not be your best choice
16:34:06 <BiA|pavel-css> i am just tring to find ANY solution which cause my problem
16:34:07 <Osai> I still have an old g5ppc
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16:37:27 <Bjarni> I guess I speak for all of us :)
16:37:40 <kristyburg> can i ask of something
16:37:49 <Bjarni> but you already did so...
16:37:52 <glx> don't ask to ask, just ask :)
16:38:14 <kristyburg> i just wonder how i make a own server on openttd online?
16:38:31 <kristyburg> must i register somewhere?
16:38:40 <Bjarni> the game will do that for you
16:39:41 <glx> there's a dropdown in "start server" GUI
16:40:07 <Bjarni> advertise is not mentioned
16:40:16 <kristyburg> i have made a server now but nobody is coming!:(
16:40:37 <DorpsGek> Bjarni: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
16:40:41 <BiA|pavel-css> i hope you have same problem as me :)
16:41:17 <BiA|pavel-css> maybye you will find solution for him and then i will know what to do :)
16:41:33 <Bjarni> BiA|pavel-css: if it makes you feel better then many people on the internet has issues
16:41:42 <Bjarni> but we still don't want to hear about them
16:44:08 *** xerxes is now known as shodan
16:48:11 <Osai> okay we, have some problems with PBI
16:52:07 <BiA|pavel-css> might be possible that i have only one (tpc/udp) allowed and thats why MS see me, and second one is bloacked, and thats why others dont see em?
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16:57:27 <BiA|pavel-css> glx: can you see now my server?
17:05:16 <SpComb> mm, is the issue that the server appears on the MS with a different port than it's confugred on?
17:06:20 <SpComb> your NAT may mangle the source port on the packets that you send to the MS
17:07:42 <BiA|pavel-css> oh i closed server :)
17:08:38 <BiA|pavel-css> SpComb: how can i disallow that?
17:09:46 <SpComb> BiA|pavel-css: is that the case, with the server showing up on the MS with a different port?
17:09:53 <BiA|pavel-css> Server address: 83.208.140.48:3979
17:10:04 <BiA|pavel-css> but i appear on MS, thats all
17:10:31 <Gonozal_VIII> i already have that in my list and it's offline
17:10:37 <BiA|pavel-css> maybye i just setuped something somewhere wrong :/
17:11:19 <SpComb> but it doesn't show up in the in-game server browser?
17:12:01 <SpComb> not even as a "dead" server (i.e. it shows the IP address instead of the sever name)?
17:12:26 <BiA|pavel-css> dont ask me i cant try it
17:13:02 <Gonozal_VIII> hmm i added it manually before clicking find server, i don't know
17:13:24 <BiA|pavel-css> O:-) can you try it please: _
17:14:44 <Gonozal_VIII> removed it from the cfg...
17:14:56 <Gonozal_VIII> (i.e. it shows the IP address instead of the sever name)? <---
17:21:21 <BiA|pavel-css> SpComb: so yes :) dead server :)
17:26:39 <BiA|pavel-css> and its communicating with MS ... Start date != Current date
17:26:52 <SpComb> then the clients can't send UDP packets to the port listed on the master server, or they can't get the replies from them
17:28:01 <Eddi|zuHause> we tell you it's UDP for several days now...
17:28:17 <BiA|pavel-css> i read it first tiem
17:28:30 <BiA|pavel-css> i know my english is bad .... :(
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17:56:52 <BiA|pavel-css> at kerio a setuped ... "report packets coming to unopened ports" and?
17:57:01 <BiA|pavel-css> i was just browsing setup:
17:57:35 <glx> you blocked all incomming?
17:58:24 <BiA|pavel-css> thanks god SpComb and Eddi|zuHause told me that i block udp now
17:58:51 <glx> go in the second tab (sitova...)
17:59:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i have said that at least five times...
17:59:57 <glx> then click on third button (the one before refresh)
18:00:39 <BiA|pavel-css> Eddi|zuHause: sorry but this is really first time i read that
18:01:18 <glx> BiA|pavel-css: are you following what I say?
18:01:40 <glx> description: what you want
18:01:58 <glx> application: openttd.exe (so it works for any openttd)
18:03:27 <BiA|pavel-css> allow both you mean direction?
18:03:46 <glx> yes both directions, and allow in the other group
18:04:13 <BiA|pavel-css> nothink in protocol,local,"far" ??
18:04:33 <glx> start with a simple config :)
18:05:41 <BiA|pavel-css> its still under .. report ...
18:06:01 <BiA|pavel-css> 10.0.0.1:3979 ... udp .. denided
18:06:08 <glx> move it above the "block all" rule
18:06:37 <BiA|pavel-css> no block all :)
18:06:48 <BiA|pavel-css> only one rule now
18:11:43 <BiA|pavel-css> whats should be in secudred zono, or where it is? :)
18:12:08 <glx> second button on left, 3rd tab
18:12:19 <BiA|pavel-css> safeness of system?
18:14:11 <glx> your local network should be in secured
18:14:32 <BiA|pavel-css> local network is off ... does router count as local?
18:15:09 <glx> and router filters what enters in local network
18:15:53 <BiA|pavel-css> still denided :X
18:18:04 <glx> close server and restart it
18:20:12 <BiA|pavel-css> i must enter it for each openttd.exe
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18:20:40 <BiA|pavel-css> i entered there 0.5.3 ... now i for test entered beta1 and it work!
18:20:51 *** Osai is now known as Guest642
18:21:16 <BiA|pavel-css> or .. kerio say it work :)
18:21:22 <BiA|pavel-css> glx: can you see my server?
18:23:25 <BiA|pavel-css> gonna try restar server .. :/
18:28:18 <glx> you need only one rule for openttd
18:28:43 <BiA|pavel-css> d:\ottd 0.5.3\openttd.exe
18:30:18 <BiA|pavel-css> another rule for 3979 port?
18:30:52 <glx> 1 out to MS, then incomming is not blocked
18:31:33 <BiA|pavel-css> MS saw me all time and comunicated .. :)
18:31:53 <BiA|pavel-css> you see my server?
18:33:23 * glx starts a server so I can see what the window should say :)
18:33:45 <BiA|pavel-css> Q: when i recieve a packet dont i have to send any? :P
18:34:00 <BiA|pavel-css> i am sending only to MS
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18:36:42 <BiA|pavel-css> bny93-6-82-245-156-124.fbx.proxad.net?
18:36:59 *** KritiK_ is now known as KritiK
18:37:46 <glx> in logs I see the same as you
18:38:05 <BiA|pavel-css> only recieving?
18:39:06 <BiA|pavel-css> so kerio is okay .)
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18:41:41 <glx> and forwarding is ok too, else kerio won't show anything
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18:51:11 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r11601 /trunk/src/ (misc_gui.cpp station_gui.cpp vehicle_gui.cpp): -Codechange: more strict break conditions for _userstring, assert when it overflows anyway (eg. code change without proper check change)
18:51:48 *** glx is now known as glx|away
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18:54:08 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: bjarni * r11602 /trunk/config.lib:
18:54:08 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Change: [OSX] changed default PPC SDK to 10.4 (from 10.3) when building universal binaries
18:54:08 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: 10.5 support needs this and it will not break 10.3 support
18:55:04 <BiA|pavel-css> hey SpComb: UDP allowed ... still bad :(
18:56:09 <SpComb> what do the logs show?
18:58:45 <SpComb> no outgoing responses?
18:59:24 <BiA|pavel-css> but ... glx tested it on his own server and said, it show same as me
18:59:28 <BiA|pavel-css> but i dont know
19:01:35 *** Diabolic-Angel has quit IRC
19:01:47 <BiA|pavel-css> gonna try reboot
19:02:08 <SpComb> it shows the outgoing packet to the master server, but it doesn't show the reply to the packet that the MS sends you, but it shows up in the list, so it must just codense repliues into the same line
19:03:05 <BiA|pavel-css> no ... there is only one outgoing ... thats to MS
19:03:15 <BiA|pavel-css> then, MS incoming ...
19:03:56 <BiA|pavel-css> i closed server and ...
19:04:10 <BiA|pavel-css> every incoming was denited .. but ...
19:05:16 <BiA|pavel-css> thats glx|away :D
19:06:59 <BiA|pavel-css> and when i close server ... one outgoing to MS
19:07:15 <BiA|pavel-css> and maanyy denited to 3979 :/
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19:09:09 <BiA|pavel-css> 20denited/second
19:09:11 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd
19:09:51 <Gonozal_VIII> i'm sure that has nothing to do with me
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19:19:19 <BiA|pavel-css> why that many ppl try to connect to my 3979port??
19:19:51 <Gonozal_VIII> that was me hitting the refresh server button
19:24:41 <BiA|pavel-css> reset of pc changd situation :)
19:24:44 <BiA|pavel-css> ms cant see me :)
19:25:01 <BiA|pavel-css> but i am accepting a lot incoming to 3979 udp :)
19:26:14 <BiA|pavel-css> w8, i will start him for your test :)
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19:53:54 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r11603 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Fix [FS#1481]: make price for railtype conversion more realistic
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20:12:04 <Ruud> i have a question about OTTD devving
20:12:24 <Ruud> you seem to have achieved something i also need
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20:30:30 <svip> How do I convert old signals to the newer ones?
20:31:12 <svip> That is going to take forever.
20:31:20 <Tefad> or maybe there's some kind of goofy shift+ctrl thing
20:31:34 <svip> That was sort of what I was pointing at.
20:31:45 <Tefad> if you can't find it easily i doubt it exists
20:31:53 <Tefad> however you can probably code a patch and submit it ; )
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20:58:40 <oh> anyone know if qu@rks hangs out here ?
20:58:51 <oh> he runs the non-dihedral fair play servers
21:01:06 <Ruud> what does non-dihedral means?
21:01:33 <hylje> someone who is not dihedral
21:02:53 <Osai> when prospecting a raw material industry (and PBI is loaded) all players de-sync in the multiplayer game only the prospecting player stays
21:03:09 <hylje> the server doesn't die either
21:03:25 <Osai> happens with r11601 at the current openttdcoop public server game
21:06:16 <Osai> hmm... who should I highlight :>
21:06:43 <BiA|pavel-css> but ... just wait
21:07:18 <BiA|pavel-css> DorpsGek :) he hate it :)
21:07:19 <Osai> next nightly wont be released before tomorrow, there is a lot of time
21:08:08 <BiA|pavel-css> today first revision was
21:08:35 <Osai> yep, but latest nightly is 11601
21:08:41 <BiA|pavel-css> 11603 is latest
21:08:53 <Osai> well, thats the trunk, not the nightly
21:09:15 <BiA|pavel-css> i am not sure bu ...
21:09:30 <DorpsGek> Osai: Commit by smatz :: r11603 /trunk/src (5 files) (2007-12-08 19:53:30 UTC)
21:09:31 <DorpsGek> Osai: -Fix [FS#1481]: make price for railtype conversion more realistic
21:09:54 <Rubidium> which is after 20:00 CET
21:10:54 <Osai> nightly is just the version compiled a 20:00 CET imho
21:11:13 <BiA|pavel-css> Rubidium: who is right? :)
21:12:25 <Rubidium> why do I need to be a linux user for that?
21:12:39 <BiA|pavel-css> i can run taht via command line? :)
21:13:03 <Rubidium> when you have installed the proper tool and are using the proper command line tool, you can in Windows
21:13:09 <Osai> BiA|pavel-css: just click it and the browser will show you the result
21:13:24 <BiA|pavel-css> The requested URL /devs/rev` was not found o
21:14:11 <BiA|pavel-css> whats 11602 and 11603 then?
21:14:12 <Eddi|zuHause> sure, if you have a sh compatible shell installed
21:14:38 <Osai> Rubidium: is this problem known?
21:14:57 <BiA|pavel-css> it is "just" grf :P
21:15:11 <Rubidium> the client prospecting and the server do not desync, the rest does?
21:15:18 <BiA|pavel-css> This board is currently disabled. :(
21:15:18 <Eddi|zuHause> BiA|pavel-css: the nightly is only compiled once a night
21:15:27 <BiA|pavel-css> Eddi|zuHause: thanks
21:15:29 <Eddi|zuHause> 02 and 03 will be included in the next nightly
21:15:40 <Rubidium> that sounds very odd to me
21:16:27 <BiA|pavel-css> sounds almost like bug which was present month ago
21:16:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i suspect a random call in the ~DC_EXEC part
21:17:00 <Eddi|zuHause> both prospector and server execute that part
21:17:12 <Eddi|zuHause> the other clients only execute the DC_EXEC part
21:17:44 <Rubidium> the client 'issueing' does the ~DC_EXEC path twice, the rest all do it once
21:19:05 <Eddi|zuHause> err... yes, but the prospector and the server do it the same number of times
21:19:20 <Eddi|zuHause> while the other clients do it once less
21:19:43 <Rubidium> that's the whole thing, the server does it also only once (AFAIK)
21:21:29 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i'm not really sure about this... but what other explanation would there be?
21:21:53 <Rubidium> hmm, two forum upgrades in such a short time period... something must have gone wrong somewhere
21:22:30 *** LordAzamath has joined #openttd
21:22:53 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
21:23:04 <LordAzamath> the forums are being upgraded?
21:23:52 <Bjarni> (in case you didn't notice)
21:24:46 <ln-> Episode VI: Return of the Bjarni
21:24:59 <Bjarni> it goes without saying that this channel isn't the same without me
21:25:18 <LordAzamath> The Felloship of the Bjarni
21:25:34 <Eddi|zuHause> that is probably true, but i think you are kind of overestimating the significance of it ;)
21:25:35 <ln-> yes, this channel is a 2-state FSM.
21:25:55 <Bjarni> I think this channel is a whole lot different when I'm here
21:26:09 <Bjarni> my experience of this channel certainly is
21:26:20 <Eddi|zuHause> but you have no chance to prove this
21:26:44 <Eddi|zuHause> if a tree falls, and nobody is there to listen... etc.
21:27:09 <Gonozal_VIII> yes... when a tree falls, there are logs
21:27:14 <LordAzamath> Bjarni..how can you tell it's different, if you aren't even here?
21:27:25 <Bjarni> less completely random kicks
21:28:12 *** Gonozal_VIII was kicked by Bjarni (wrong channel)
21:28:12 *** Gonozal_VIII has joined #openttd
21:28:30 <LordAzamath> random kick? nope
21:28:51 <LordAzamath> just to prove us?
21:28:52 <Osai> don't type evil ! password in this channel
21:29:08 <Osai> because you have to type in another channel
21:29:11 *** Osai was kicked by Bjarni (!right channel)
21:29:32 <hylje> that's unnecessarily arbitrary
21:29:42 <LordAzamath> but he had spaces in between...
21:29:58 <LordAzamath> ! and the passwor* word
21:30:14 <Bjarni> !password = ! password
21:30:31 <Bjarni> wake up you damn script
21:30:36 <LordAzamath> how come you didn't get kicked?
21:30:47 <Bjarni> the script is broken :(
21:30:49 <LordAzamath> when you typed !passwor*
21:31:04 *** Eddi|zuHause was kicked by Bjarni (left channel)
21:31:08 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd
21:31:37 <Vikthor> Bjarni: And what about center?
21:31:37 <Osai> the kicking reasons always change
21:32:42 <LordAzamath> dropsGek sounds like corpse...I don't think he'll wake up
21:32:42 <BiA|pavel-css> we all will get kicks whn he will awake :)
21:33:52 <DorpsGek> Bjarni: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
21:34:02 <Bjarni> he listens to our commands
21:34:08 <Bjarni> but the script stopped working
21:34:23 <Bjarni> I think the problem is that the script fails to activate the commands
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21:34:44 <Bjarni> fjb: did you find the electrified lines in the Rockies?
21:34:52 <BiA|pavel-css> who can repair it? :)
21:34:57 <LordAzamath> <+glx> can someone type !password? (I want to test a script)-!- Sacro [~Sacro@*.*.*.*] has joined #openttd<@Bjarni> Sacro: type !password-!- Bjarni was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [wrong channel]-!- Bjarni [~Bjarni@*.*.*.*] has joined #openttd......................but glx did say !passwor* himself too :S
21:35:10 <fjb> Bjarni: They were there till 33 years ago. :-(
21:35:11 <LordAzamath> but then..he added ? to end
21:35:45 <Bjarni> LordAzamath: he wrote the script... for all I know he blacklisted his own nick
21:36:07 <Osai> doesn't it only work when glx is here?
21:36:27 <Bjarni> he is just called glx|away
21:36:49 * LordAzamath thinks of newGLX's
21:38:15 <LordAzamath> hope I won't get a kick for this :)
21:38:35 <Bjarni> that is what it takes to get a kick here
21:39:43 <LordAzamath> so you shouldn't mention Dexxtro?
21:39:54 <LordAzamath> can't get that one...
21:40:19 <Eddi|zuHause> that is unfortunate for you
21:40:24 <Eddi|zuHause> it is really funny :p
21:40:59 <LordAzamath> darkwater said something and Dextro got kicked.....hmm..Yeap. Funny :D
21:41:25 <Bjarni> Darkvater claimed to always be right and then he claims to be Dextro
21:41:47 <Bjarni> the ratings can sometimes be random
21:41:54 <Bjarni> just like grades at school
21:41:57 <LordAzamath> I just cast a vote :D
21:42:38 *** LordAzamath was kicked by Bjarni (Democracy doesn't work in here. Here I rule)
21:43:12 *** LordAzamath has joined #openttd
21:43:52 <Rubidium> Osai: what version of PBI and what climate/industry do I need to be able to make it desync?
21:44:34 <BiA|pavel-css> Rubidium: i can send you grf pack, you will find :)
21:44:48 <Osai> PBI v1.2, ottd r11601, alpine climate
21:45:30 <LordAzamath> The forum is currently being upgraded. This may take a few hours. Apologies for the inconvenience.............................darn
21:45:57 <Osai> it happens with our current configuration, I could give you a savegame as well
21:47:12 <Bjarni> again using the wrong name can result in a kick
21:47:58 <LordAzamath> what about a guy named pwner :D
21:48:10 <Osai> okay, that one was funny
21:48:24 <Osai> I like that first reaction :D
21:48:38 <Rubidium> Osai: what industry?
21:49:01 <Osai> if you prospect a new industry
21:49:14 <Rubidium> I did quite a few times and none of the clients desynced
21:49:48 <BiA|pavel-css> thats because no democracy there, clients only listen :))
21:50:41 <Wolf01> The forum is currently being upgraded. This may take a few hours. Apologies for the inconvenience. :|
21:52:31 <Rubidium> I've now wasted 100 million pounds on funding industries and still no desync...
21:52:32 <LordAzamath> pavel...how can be no democracy? its location isn't in Russia, is it?
21:52:53 <Gonozal_VIII> in soviet russia, client hosts you!
21:52:57 <Bjarni> Democracy is an illusion
21:53:25 <Bjarni> countries ruled by politicians are an illusion
21:53:34 <Rubidium> Osai: url for that savegame?
21:53:38 <LordAzamath> Bjarni is an illusion
21:53:45 <Bjarni> in reality all countries are ruled by aliens
21:54:01 <Bjarni> and the aliens are under my command
21:54:10 <LordAzamath> matrix is THE truth....thereisnospoonthereisnospoon
21:54:15 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause, I rechecked: only the issueing client does the ~DC_EXEC phase twice, the others (including the server) do it only once
21:54:15 <Gonozal_VIII> no, we're all inside an ancester simulation of some advanced civilization
21:54:32 <Bjarni> BiA|pavel-css: we tried to do the same thing here... but one guy didn't care and spoiled it
21:54:41 <Osai> Rubidium: I tested it locally too, I didn't desync either, but it happend in our current public server game
21:54:50 <LordAzamath> when I wanted to come in? :D
21:55:06 <Bjarni> it was aimed at _luca_
21:55:30 <Rubidium> Osai: slap XeryusTC2 or whoever did make the server with the wrong revision *again*
21:55:31 <Bjarni> he gained time because his wifi router kicked him while he was logging in
21:55:38 <LordAzamath> because now you can just kick the unwelcome ones? :D :D
21:55:46 <Bjarni> I could do that back then
21:55:52 <Osai> Rubidium: why, wrong revision?
21:55:53 <Rubidium> Osai: or the binary clients
21:56:00 <Bjarni> we just wanted to see how he reacted
21:56:14 <Rubidium> Osai: looks like a messup with the revision numbers to me
21:56:51 * LordAzamath is afraid to connect the next time...Here can only be some illusions about democracy, government, freedom and Bjarni
21:57:22 <Osai> Rubidium: I compiled with ./configure --revision=r11601
21:57:29 <BiA|pavel-css> hey Bjarni, is LordAzamath real? or still illusion? :)
21:57:45 <LordAzamath> a ghost to be precise
21:57:48 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r11604 /trunk/src/water_cmd.cpp: -Fix: canal tiles were not marked dirty when surrounding tile got flooded, causing glitches
21:57:50 <Bjarni> but he isn't a real threat
21:58:34 <LordAzamath> I can't be a threat if even wind can blow me away indeed
21:58:55 <Bjarni> and now I have to ensure that the first one was the correct one
21:59:06 <Ruud> anyone talked to SpComb lately?
21:59:28 <Bjarni> I talked to him this year
21:59:49 <Ruud> "lately" in my definition is like today? ;)
21:59:52 <DorpsGek> Osai: SpComb was last seen in #openttd 2 hours, 57 minutes, and 44 seconds ago: <SpComb> it shows the outgoing packet to the master server, but it doesn't show the reply to the packet that the MS sends you, but it shows up in the list, so it must just codense repliues into the same line
22:00:30 <Ruud> i am just a bit frustrated over the IRC use
22:00:33 <BiA|pavel-css> why not correst smiles (:
22:00:57 <Bjarni> it's the people on it that's the problem
22:01:22 <LordAzamath> or some illusions that other seem to think as people
22:01:22 <Ruud> its the software + protocoll + the decision to use it what sucks
22:01:53 <Rubidium> what would be better than IRC?
22:02:02 <Bjarni> Ruud: what would you use instead?
22:02:06 <BiA|pavel-css> contact in real? :)
22:02:22 <Bjarni> I'm sure the phone companies would love that
22:02:36 <BiA|pavel-css> TS? are you kidding, i wont understand you there :)
22:02:38 <Ruud> MSN (also sucks, but less then IRC imo)
22:02:47 <SmatZ> Ruud: you may program an OTTD mod to allow direct IRC connection from game...
22:02:54 <Bjarni> what's wrong with IRC?
22:03:09 <Osai> SmatZ: autopilot can do that already
22:03:10 <Gonozal_VIII> teamspeak with 81 people in the channel? that's a lot of traffic...
22:03:13 <BiA|pavel-css> SMS? :D i am not rich to send ":D" to all users :D
22:03:15 <SmatZ> IRC is great, simple, no bells and whistles, many different custom clients etc
22:03:45 <Ruud> IRC is old, outdated, public, has tech shortcomings which i don't even want to START list, clients all suck
22:03:49 <BiA|pavel-css> yeah and its confuzing .)
22:04:00 <Bjarni> BiA|pavel-css: then you have a problem because I charge more for this channel than the phone companies charge for SMSes
22:04:03 <Eddi|zuHause> <SmatZ> Ruud: you may program an OTTD mod to allow direct IRC connection from game... <- autopilot can do that
22:04:03 <Ruud> you have to connect manually to a server
22:04:17 <Rubidium> so you want something that does not allow someone to look back/go away for a few seconds
22:04:18 <SmatZ> yeah, just because it is old, it sucks
22:04:34 <Ruud> no, but the tech is old and not updated, THAT sucks
22:04:38 <BiA|pavel-css> Bjarni: i know :(
22:04:42 <Osai> Rubidium: could it be the combination with another grf as well?
22:04:48 <Ruud> all other IM protocolls are updated at least once a year
22:04:49 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: [23:03:10] <Osai> SmatZ: autopilot can do that already
22:04:58 <BiA|pavel-css> so you will move to SMSs? :D
22:04:58 <Gonozal_VIII> so... let's forget about openttd because ttd is old and therefore sucks
22:05:13 <Ruud> IRC is prob stiil the same RFC proto since designed
22:05:24 <Prof_Frink> Ruud: And how often are other protocols updated?
22:05:40 <Ruud> Hey, I never said that because something is OLD, it sucks
22:05:40 <BiA|pavel-css> maybye it dont need nay update? :)
22:05:40 <Prof_Frink> Like ftp, http and the like?
22:05:40 <Osai> Ruud: never change a running system
22:05:56 <Rubidium> Ruud: so you do not like HTTP, HTML, XML, SMTP (i.e. email) and such either?
22:06:19 <Ruud> But the problem is that it might be running, the system is highly outdated, and really needs updates
22:06:20 <BiA|pavel-css> i don't like smtp :)
22:06:32 <Osai> BiA|pavel-css: imap user?
22:06:35 <LordAzamath> I like....because of GMail
22:06:37 <Ruud> yes, HTTP, SMTP are surely outdated and need upgrades
22:06:47 <BiA|pavel-css> what's imap? :D
22:06:59 <Ruud> XML HTML are fine though, but also get updates in the coming years
22:07:04 <Osai> its just another protocol
22:07:09 <hylje> internet message access protocol
22:07:23 <Rubidium> I really do not see what is going to change about XML
22:07:26 <Osai> difference it stores the data on the server
22:07:27 <BiA|pavel-css> Ruud: you are right, IRC should get an update to disallow here peaple like you :o)
22:07:49 <LordAzamath> pavel, kicking can do the job
22:08:05 <Ruud> because ppl are using it for years, decades, ppl d not see how it can be if its upgraded
22:08:13 <Ruud> cuz they dont know what to expect
22:08:17 <BiA|pavel-css> Ruud: upgrade it via !password :)
22:08:18 <Gonozal_VIII> what would you change?
22:08:23 <Osai> we chat and talk and have fun
22:08:47 <Rubidium> hmm, and Ruud doesn't like OpenTTD either
22:08:47 <LordAzamath> InternetRelayChat....
22:09:04 <Ruud> I do like openttd, where do you get that wisdom from?
22:09:18 <Rubidium> because it's network protocol has not changed over the last year
22:09:20 <BiA|pavel-css> you said something like that :))
22:09:33 <Rubidium> ergo... it is something you do not like
22:09:50 <Ruud> I would review the protocoll for its purpose. Then I would look to existing tech and see what is usefull to put in
22:10:10 <Rubidium> hmm, on the other hand... Ruud doesn't even like TCP/IP
22:10:16 <BiA|pavel-css> wow, i think this is my first time i spelled something right to first tr y:)
22:10:20 <Ruud> First, the clients are confusing. New users need a guide to start IRC-ing! Quite a difference compared to MSN, AOL etc
22:10:21 <LordAzamath> The forum is currently being upgraded. This may take a few hours. Apologies for the inconvenience....................................how long :(
22:10:40 <Ruud> Rubidium: u don't get my point
22:10:47 <BiA|pavel-css> LordAzamath: you will post it here every 10mins? :)
22:10:48 <Rubidium> people also need a guide to shut down Windows
22:10:59 <Ruud> Like for now. I want to contact SpComb
22:11:01 <Rubidium> or even to turn on their computer
22:11:07 <Rubidium> wait till he arrives
22:11:12 <BiA|pavel-css> Ruud: and on icq/msn???
22:11:13 <Ruud> I cant send him a personal message
22:11:17 <BiA|pavel-css> you must wait too
22:11:18 <Gonozal_VIII> the clients are confusing? because there are too much of them or why?
22:11:27 <Rubidium> /msg Ruud <your private message>
22:11:39 <Ruud> I have to wait, be at the K and then hope he reacts
22:11:48 <Ruud> This is exactly what i mean
22:11:56 <Rubidium> Ruud: and how different is that to MSN or teamspeak?
22:11:58 <Ruud> Sure, there is even a cmd for
22:12:07 *** LordAzamath has joined #openttd
22:12:09 <Ruud> MSN i just send a message
22:12:22 <BiA|pavel-css> i can send PM via doubleclick :)
22:12:22 <Ruud> I dont have to worry about my IRC client to shut down
22:12:27 <Gonozal_VIII> msn doesn't have offline messages
22:12:29 <LordAzamath> ........./msg Ruud <your private message> that's evil
22:12:41 <LordAzamath> kopete crashed after I tried to pm myself
22:12:45 <Ruud> its not evil, i like cmdline commands
22:12:58 * BiA|pavel-css is gonna try it too
22:13:02 <Ruud> the problem is just that *I have to know this command in order to execute it*
22:13:24 <Ruud> Why not have a GUI for it? right click user, then "send message"?
22:13:25 <BiA|pavel-css> "-> *BiA|pavel-css* lol" hehe
22:13:28 <Rubidium> or you just install a tool that has a GUI for that
22:13:33 <BiA|pavel-css> Ruud: i have :o)
22:13:39 <Ruud> then I hav to install a tool
22:13:40 <Gonozal_VIII> i'm sure there are clients with guis for everything
22:13:41 <LordAzamath> ruud....try hydrairc or chatzilla or kopete
22:13:48 <LordAzamath> there you have nice gui
22:13:51 <Rubidium> Ruud: for you already did
22:13:52 <Ruud> I dont have to install a tool when sending a file to a skype user
22:14:04 <Rubidium> Ruud: you do need a 'tool'
22:14:08 <Prof_Frink> Ruud: How about, I dunno, Skype?
22:14:12 <Rubidium> the tool is the 'skype' application
22:14:12 <Ruud> I just install Skype, it works, with all modern functionality
22:14:23 <BiA|pavel-css> i just install mirc and it works
22:14:26 <Rubidium> Ruud: and that is exactly the tool I am talking about
22:14:27 <Ruud> The fact that *my IRC client* does not support a GUI to send a private message
22:14:28 <LordAzamath> originally developed by estonians
22:14:38 <Gonozal_VIII> so basically you are complaining about lack of monopoly of irc clients?
22:14:52 <BiA|pavel-css> he doesnt know :)
22:14:59 <Prof_Frink> Ruud: But to run Skype, I would need to install X and configure sound.
22:15:01 <Ruud> Concludes me that the IRC protocoll has a shortcoming: a recommendation for GUI design
22:15:12 <Osai> Ruud: I have a gui for that, I just double click a name in the list or in the chat window itself
22:15:22 <Prof_Frink> Which would make the machine I am IRCing from cry.
22:15:25 <Ruud> that is a linux problem. That's what you *want* since u chose linux
22:15:38 <Gonozal_VIII> that's not a shortcoming, gui has nothing to do with the protocol, that's client stuff
22:15:42 <Rubidium> hmm... so my IRC/MSN clients are bad because I can't double click on names to send a PM?
22:15:46 <Ruud> I am not saying that IRC is flawed
22:16:00 <BiA|pavel-css> actualy, you are
22:16:01 <Ruud> My whole point is that I dont like it because there is no progress in it
22:16:24 <BiA|pavel-css> there is no need to devepop it?
22:16:29 <Prof_Frink> Ruud: What would you like to see in IRC?
22:16:31 <Ruud> No new features added, etc
22:16:46 <BiA|pavel-css> Ruud: what features are you missiong?
22:17:02 <LordAzamath> simple and small...what would you expect
22:17:19 <Ruud> send private messages, send files, see history, updated UI, etcetc
22:17:28 <Gonozal_VIII> the features are in the clients, if you want something that no client has, write your own
22:17:29 <BiA|pavel-css> Ruud: thats all about client
22:17:30 <Ruud> Features u gonna say thats already in there
22:17:35 <Rubidium> it's just YOUR client that does not support it
22:17:36 <LordAzamath> if you want to video-talk, there are other programs
22:17:56 <LordAzamath> all supported by kopete too
22:18:12 <Ruud> Implementation of these features can be way better, and i mean *WAY* better
22:18:27 <Rubidium> because IF I let you play with the MSN client I am using, you are going to say EXACTLY the same about MSN as you did about IRC.
22:18:31 <Ruud> Take OpenTTD as an example
22:18:42 <Prof_Frink> Rubidium: bitlbee?
22:19:02 <Ruud> then, after ttdpatch, the openttd project started
22:19:03 <LordAzamath> osai what os are you on
22:19:24 <Rubidium> openttd has nothing to do with TTDPatch
22:19:25 <Ruud> A lot of things i was missing where added in the openttd dev
22:19:30 <Osai> your name is underlined, like a hyperlink, because my mouse is over it, one click and we have a personal chat
22:20:04 <Ruud> Yes it has, TTDPatch was not good enough to work further on, so openttd was started (if i am correct)
22:20:17 <Osai> I have everything I need, even a Smart Chatlog which saves all the hyperlinks sent in a channel
22:20:22 <Ruud> but goes outside the point
22:20:22 <Gonozal_VIII> you're not corect
22:20:53 <LordAzamath> IRC rocks Osai's socks
22:20:58 <BiA|pavel-css> but TTDPatch developer didnt make a single update for half-year true? :)
22:20:59 <Ruud> Features I missed in TTD where included in ottd
22:21:02 <Osai> Ruud: you should try www.nnscript.de its maybe more your flavour
22:21:25 <Rubidium> oh, Ruud does your MSN client allow you to ignore messages from other people containing a certain word, or stop showing join/leave/status changes of a select group of people?
22:21:27 <Gonozal_VIII> you keep mixing up irc and your irc client
22:21:29 <Osai> LordAzamath: why are you asking about my os?
22:21:29 <Ruud> There are a lot of features which are implemented, but I think in some years will be implemented differently
22:21:52 <Prof_Frink> Ruud: Can you access MSN as a file system?
22:21:54 <Rubidium> BiA|pavel-css: wrong
22:21:56 <Ruud> Which makes my point: I don't like everything about ottd
22:22:09 <LordAzamath> because you seem to have not win not linux...maybe Mac Os ?
22:22:22 <Ruud> But the main reason i do not not play it, is because of the ongoing devving
22:22:28 <Rubidium> BiA|pavel-css: last change to TTDP was not more than a day ago
22:22:57 <Ruud> Mixing up IRC & IRC client seems to be logical for you, but not for me, the user
22:23:20 <BiA|pavel-css> Ruud: include me, the lame :) i understand it too
22:23:20 <LordAzamath> But that's not the mistake of IRC
22:23:33 <Ruud> A client using MSN does not need to know of the MSN protocoll either? I DO however need to know stuff about the IRC prot since i need a server to connect to
22:24:07 <Ruud> Hence: IRC & IRC client are one and the same thing
22:24:14 <LordAzamath> imagine if you wanted to draw something really cool in 3d and started in Paint. Then you say the drawing needs to be done better
22:24:20 <Ruud> Maybe not technically, but from a user standpoint, it sure is!
22:24:31 <LordAzamath> because yu didn't use Blender
22:24:31 <Gonozal_VIII> you can go to www.gamesurge.net/chat and use irc there without installing or knowing anything (just an example)
22:24:39 * Rubidium wonders how an OpenTTD channel would look like in MSN
22:24:51 <Ruud> i know, i wrote a JS IRC client once
22:25:07 <Ruud> Also a Java verison (applet)
22:25:16 <BiA|pavel-css> Rubidium: or icq? :)
22:25:21 <Ruud> but u guys see my point?
22:25:22 <Prof_Frink> Rubidium: Flashing images in place of random letter combos
22:25:39 <Ruud> I don't mind digging into IRC mans looking up obscure commands
22:25:46 <Rubidium> reminds me... talking about code is useless in MSN
22:25:49 <LordAzamath> @Rubidium....omg wht msn talk her gong on :X :P :E
22:25:56 <Gonozal_VIII> not really, no... even less now that i know that you can change it yourself if you don't like it
22:26:01 <BiA|pavel-css> Ruud: i am not using any code...
22:26:11 <Rubidium> because half of the code is going to be crappy smileys
22:26:14 <BiA|pavel-css> and trying to spell it right :)
22:26:18 <Osai> Rubidium: any progress yet? I didn't understand what you meant with the revision
22:26:35 <Ruud> I know, there are some fair IRC clients
22:26:43 <Rubidium> I need some crappy landscapes GRFs and I haven't bothered starting my webbrowser yet
22:26:55 <Ruud> But the design is in roughly every IRC client the same
22:27:04 <Eddi|zuHause> MSN is for the people who were too stupid to get AOL?
22:27:08 <LordAzamath> Ruud, there are some non-fair...others aru just fine
22:27:21 <Osai> Rubidium: just download the package
22:27:31 <Rubidium> Ruud: is the design in roughly every MSN client the same?
22:27:34 <Ruud> MSN has a market penetration in the Netherlands of over 95%
22:27:38 <LordAzamath> I have the same "design" for IRC as for msn
22:27:45 <Gonozal_VIII> my irc client is the same that i use for msn and icq
22:27:45 <BiA|pavel-css> Ruud: well, now you are digging every single thing and trying to compare with irc? i think you will fail
22:28:16 <Ruud> I am talking about usability design here, software which implements these rules in freeware/OSS land are countable on one hand
22:28:17 <LordAzamath> you can't do this woth msn
22:28:45 * BiA|pavel-css slaps LordAzamath too
22:29:05 <LordAzamath> what have I ever done to you
22:29:22 * Ruud is just a bit agitated when it comes to IRC since there is no improvement, and I see a lot of things which can be improved
22:29:34 <Rubidium> Ruud: IMO Windows isn't useable either
22:29:37 <Wezz6400> Ruud than create something better yourself
22:29:50 * LordAzamath thinks that Ruud forgot to speak in third person
22:29:53 <Gonozal_VIII> you can complain that you couldn't find a client that you like but what has that to do with irc in general?
22:30:00 <Wezz6400> I for one like IRC a lot
22:30:10 <Wezz6400> ease cli structure, I love it
22:30:16 <BiA|pavel-css> i dont miss ANYTHING in irc ...
22:30:20 <Ruud> See above in the discussion, that point i already made
22:30:48 <LordAzamath> maybe..but I for one didn't get anypoint
22:30:53 * Rubidium wonders when the MSN client becomes accessible for remote computers on slow internet lines
22:31:15 <Wezz6400> well I think you exegurate (spell?) when you say most OSS software does not comply with usability design
22:31:26 <Rubidium> but still, what makes EVERY MSN client better than ANY IRC client?
22:31:30 * LordAzamath wonders are there even any computers left with dial-up
22:31:36 <Ruud> okay, which app does ahve good usability design by you?
22:31:40 <BiA|pavel-css> Rubidium: pop-ups i have it!
22:32:17 <BiA|pavel-css> simple, user-friendly
22:32:33 <Wezz6400> Ruud Open Office for one
22:32:46 <Rubidium> notepad is totally unuseable for files without \r\n
22:32:49 <Prof_Frink> You have to take your fingers *off the keyboard* to use any advanced features
22:33:08 <LordAzamath> who here uses IExplore and Microsoft Office anyway?
22:33:16 <BiA|pavel-css> i have MS office :)
22:33:22 <LordAzamath> but do you use it
22:33:25 <Ruud> Open office is one of the best examples of how commercial software does a *way* better job of having a better UI for the same functionality
22:33:34 <BiA|pavel-css> well ... i have it, thats enought :P
22:33:41 * LordAzamath slaps Pavel's M$Office
22:33:47 <Wezz6400> LordAzamath I do, cause if you want 100% compatibility with your class mates ms office is the only way to go
22:33:48 <Prof_Frink> LordAzamath: "IExplore". This offends me.
22:34:03 * BiA|pavel-css slaps LordAzamath
22:34:21 <Ruud> I benchmarked myself, to see if what MS claims about Ofice2k7 is true
22:34:28 <LordAzamath> ruud...again wrong choice
22:34:38 <Ruud> So used OpenOffice for a wek, week after that just MS Office
22:34:57 <Ruud> I am just *way* more productive using MS Office
22:35:05 <Wezz6400> if you've been working with ms office for years that test is flawed
22:35:12 <Rubidium> oh... now we're starting to talk about MS Office
22:35:14 <BiA|pavel-css> i have IE too, because a lot of people too and i need that my web pages must look decent in IE
22:35:16 <Wezz6400> as you clearly have way more experience with one product than the other
22:35:23 <Ruud> I mean, if u compare OO.o to MSO 97, maybe they are even
22:35:31 <Rubidium> imagine 25 people writing a document of 500 pages
22:35:44 <Rubidium> and not each writing 20 consecutive pages, but interwoven and such
22:35:55 <Ruud> I have been working with Office, StarOffice, WP 5.1, Word 6.0, etc etc
22:35:59 <Rubidium> people editting/fixing spelling/grammar in other people's text
22:36:14 <Ruud> works great in MS Office i can tell u
22:36:14 <Rubidium> now... show me how to do that nicely without too much overhead in MS Word
22:36:20 <Rubidium> with incompetent users that is
22:37:09 <LordAzamath> use IRC and then copy-paste everthing :D
22:37:17 <Ruud> I would recommend using MSO 2k7 for imcompetent users, since in MSO everything is easy to understand, functionality is visible
22:37:21 <Gonozal_VIII> copy-paste to where?^^
22:37:37 <BiA|pavel-css> Ruud: good joke
22:37:41 <LordAzamath> openoffice writer
22:37:42 <Rubidium> Ruud: but a 500 page document that needs to have the same style on all pages
22:37:42 <Ruud> I even think one day ottd will have a derived office 2k7 style interface
22:37:52 <Gonozal_VIII> [23:37:17] Ruud: I would recommend using MSO 2k7 for imcompetent users, since in MSO everything is easy to understand, functionality is visible <-- only if you worked with office before
22:37:57 <BiA|pavel-css> i wanted something and it disappeared from office ... in 03 and xp it was
22:38:07 <Ruud> No, even when not working with office before
22:38:09 <Rubidium> yes... they killed clippy!
22:38:27 <LordAzamath> my friend clippy :(
22:38:29 <Ruud> I was on a family weekend lately, my dad created (second time O2k7 user)
22:38:36 <Ruud> a very nice complicated doc
22:38:52 <BiA|pavel-css> ahhh .... helper :D
22:39:03 <Ruud> Clippy was indeed one of the worst ideas ever
22:39:07 <Wezz6400> the only reason I use office instead of wordpad is the automatic index generator and spell check
22:39:16 <Wezz6400> I don't use anything else
22:39:52 <Ruud> Then hit "publish" t voila
22:40:03 <BiA|pavel-css> why i hit and must wait a minute? :P
22:40:17 <LordAzamath> like....you generate a useless htmlxxxxx code?
22:40:37 <Ruud> content is uploaded to blogserver using open standards
22:40:47 <Ruud> works with almost all major blog sites
22:41:04 <Ruud> images are handled perfectly
22:41:07 <BiA|pavel-css> LordAzamath: if you want biggest page office is good choose :)
22:41:17 <Rubidium> Ruud: but back to my question, how useable is Office in the situation of 25 people writing a 500 page document when they are fixing eachothers mistakes
22:41:39 <Ruud> I do not know. I have played with three people a couple of times, which worked great
22:41:56 <Ruud> Off course there are things which other software will do better
22:42:01 <BiA|pavel-css> 500? :X 5 is far enought :)
22:42:09 <Ruud> But overall, i am convinced MSO2k7 saves me time
22:42:32 <BiA|pavel-css> Office_2007_cz_Enterprise.iso
22:42:44 <Ruud> Since a usability engineer team worked on it
22:43:39 <LordAzamath> now how many devs develop m$Office and how many OO?
22:44:10 <LordAzamath> you can compare any linux distro and M$ team too
22:44:28 <LordAzamath> because OO is open source
22:44:52 <LordAzamath> so if you want you can make a bugfix or something very quickly yourself
22:45:11 <LordAzamath> and there are LOTS of people who volunteer
22:45:16 <Rubidium> Osai: still no desync
22:45:17 <LordAzamath> just because they need
22:45:34 <Osai> Rubidium: everybody left our server now
22:45:46 <Ruud> argh, bugfixing --> OSS vs commercial is a delicate topique
22:45:51 <LordAzamath> imagine a serious bug in OO and msoffice
22:46:01 <BiA|pavel-css> i would delete both :)
22:46:05 <Rubidium> Ruud: exactly, because you do not have enough information
22:46:09 <LordAzamath> what would you think which would get fixed faster
22:46:20 <BiA|pavel-css> LordAzamath: notepad!
22:46:33 <BiA|pavel-css> haha, jackpot to me :)
22:46:39 <Rubidium> but with MS you can be assured that it at least takes 3 weeks on average
22:46:55 <Ruud> i know a very nice MS notepad trick
22:47:04 <BiA|pavel-css> i dont know, but they are skipping bugs :)
22:47:05 <Gonozal_VIII> notepad? naaah last notepad bugfix must be years ago!
22:47:05 <LordAzamath> and with open source you can dload the patch on the same day
22:47:16 <Rubidium> BiA|pavel-css: patch Tuesday, and they will not release a bugfix that is less than a week old
22:48:08 <BiA|pavel-css> it reminds me SOE
22:48:13 <BiA|pavel-css> Sony Online Entertaiment
22:48:14 <Ruud> Ok, here goes the MS notepad trick
22:48:33 <Ruud> create new document, then type "Bush hid the facts"
22:48:37 <BiA|pavel-css> i played SWG (Star Wars Galaxies)
22:48:47 <Ruud> now look whats in the document :)
22:48:52 <LordAzamath> type in Linus Torvald's name and save..
22:48:59 <Rubidium> Ruud: could you create a file named 'con' (without quotes) for me?
22:49:05 <LordAzamath> you'll get M$ is better
22:49:43 <Ruud> nah. Dont need a restart
22:49:51 <LordAzamath> I gotta go to sleep now....It's 00:48 in morning
22:50:03 <Ruud> lthough i think that trick only orks with 98/95/ME
22:50:03 <hylje> why is everyone in the same timezone as me
22:50:38 <Rubidium> BiA|pavel-css: fix you clock
22:50:42 <LordAzamath> pavel, then your clock is 5min wrong
22:50:44 <Ruud> hey you ARE in a diff timezone :P
22:50:57 <Rubidium> LordAzamath: your clock is wrong too
22:51:00 <Gonozal_VIII> it is exactly 23:51:00
22:51:40 <Rubidium> LordAzamath: so you clock is about 2 minutes off
22:51:55 <LordAzamath> doesn't bither :D
22:52:00 <BiA|pavel-css> con ... it want to replace something :)
22:52:13 <LordAzamath> anyway..good sleep
22:52:27 *** LordAzamath has left #openttd
22:52:39 <BiA|pavel-css> lol whatsup with con? :D
22:52:54 <SmatZ> BiA|pavel-css: 'con' is a special filename
22:53:24 <SmatZ> I think it is similiar to /dev/tty
22:53:25 <BiA|pavel-css> <LordAzamath> type in Linus Torvald's name and save.. - this trick dont work
22:53:51 <Ruud> it is an old DOS naming for devices
22:54:07 <ln-> 1 episode of TNG still to be watched...
22:54:09 * BiA|pavel-css slaps Ruud around a bit with a large trout
22:54:10 <Ruud> which apperently isnt fixed in XP
22:54:13 <Rubidium> reminds me of the reason why Windows uses different path separators that any other OS
22:54:35 <BiA|pavel-css> you almost killed my system :)
22:55:03 <Gonozal_VIII> hmm? com1 does the same as con here
22:55:07 *** ThePizzaKing has joined #openttd
22:55:22 <Ruud> try to type in con\con in start-> run
22:55:29 <Ruud> in windows 95/98/ME machines
22:56:05 <BiA|pavel-css> i am glad it doesnt work in xp :)
22:56:12 <Rubidium> because somebody in DOS -every early-, when it did not support directories, thought it would be nice to use '/' for parameters
22:56:42 <Ruud> i dont know. XP is also flawed
22:56:45 <Rubidium> then in the next version they added support for directories but the '/' was already taken so they used '/'
22:56:49 <Rubidium> then in the next version they added support for directories but the '/' was already taken so they used '\'
22:57:14 <BiA|pavel-css> Rubidium ? what :)
22:57:31 <Ruud> If apple hardware was not so expesive & not upgradable i would have a mac :)
22:57:42 <Gonozal_VIII> you can read text in irc multiple times, you know?
22:57:43 <Bjarni> but now it really sucks with a decision that old
22:57:50 * Ruud would install XP and Vista as first
22:57:58 <ln-> Ruud: it's not expensive.
22:58:07 <Rubidium> hmm... pay 500 euros more for hardware or 500 euros more for the OS?
22:58:15 <Ruud> depends on how you look at it
22:58:17 <Bjarni> but then again it sucks that some railroads are stuck at DC or 16 2/3 Hz and that's a decision from before the electric computer was invented
22:58:24 <Ruud> I have all MS software for free
22:58:31 <fjb> Vista is really expensive. :-(
22:58:39 <BiA|pavel-css> vista sux at first ...
22:58:53 <Ruud> so apple hardware is always more expensive, since i pay for the OS too
22:59:07 <Ruud> and i cant put a sec HD in a mac, which sucks big time
22:59:46 <Bjarni> <Ruud> and i cant put a sec HD in a mac, which sucks big time <-- I had 2 HDs in my G4
22:59:50 <Bjarni> and room for another one
22:59:57 <Ruud> i mean a mac laptop off course
22:59:58 <Rubidium> a MAC has lots of useability features that a Windows PC does not have
23:00:01 <SmatZ> [23:55:23] <Ruud> try to type in con\con in start-> run
23:00:10 <Ruud> true, thats why i want a mAC :)
23:00:12 <SmatZ> ^^^ it doesn't restart on my ancient W98 machine
23:00:15 <Gonozal_VIII> macs are for artists
23:00:26 <SmatZ> "File con\con couldn't be found..."
23:00:36 <ln-> Ruud: i bet you cannot put a second HD in the majority of PC laptops either.
23:00:40 <Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> macs are for artists <-- great... I'm an artist
23:00:41 *** Digitalfox has joined #openttd
23:00:47 <Bjarni> anybody wants to buy a painting from me?
23:00:51 <Bjarni> I can make one if you like
23:01:01 <SmatZ> Bjarni: do you have some samples?
23:01:10 <Ruud> probably u installed the fix MS provided
23:01:28 <Bjarni> I just discovered that I'm an artist a minute ago
23:01:30 <Osai> Rubidium: I tested the current game again
23:01:54 <Ruud> ln: true. But I do have a choice, one which apple wont give me
23:02:01 * fjb is an artist without a Mac. :-)
23:02:09 <Gonozal_VIII> that's the target group imho...
23:02:13 <Osai> it doesn't happen locally here either, even with some more clients, but I tried the server again and there it happens :/
23:02:33 <BiA|pavel-css> apple is usefull
23:02:40 <Rubidium> Osai: that still makes me suspect messed up revisions
23:02:42 <Gonozal_VIII> macs for artists, linux for programmers, windows for gamers and the rest
23:02:43 <Ruud> but nowadays, MAC is for everyone, also look at the ads of apple: regulare guys
23:02:52 <SmatZ> typing "tab, backspace" several times into console causes reboot
23:02:55 <ln-> Ruud: who the hell wants two HDs in a laptop anyway? someone who is not going to use it as a laptop?
23:03:04 <Bjarni> <ln-> Ruud: i bet you cannot put a second HD in the majority of PC laptops either. <-- you don't want to know the price for each GB in an extra HD in a notebook. You see adding one is not just adding an additional 2.5" IDE HD. You need to add more hardware than that and usually also remove the optic drive
23:03:06 <Ruud> Since I am not a linux user, would that make me *NOT* a programmer?
23:03:40 <Bjarni> Ruud: I can recommend a firewire powered external HD. They are rather small and they can run on the battery in the iBook/MacBook
23:03:45 <BiA|pavel-css> Gonozal_VIII: right
23:03:50 <Ruud> Bjarni: I had a secondary HD installed for $70, 100GB, 7200rpm
23:04:03 <Ruud> incluing the bay it needs
23:04:12 <Rubidium> Ruud: and what did you loose?
23:04:38 <Ruud> useless, since i dont use opticals anymore
23:04:45 <Rubidium> I'd rather replace my optical for a battery than a HD
23:04:51 <Ruud> only very scarce, last year i needed it about 5 times.
23:05:11 <Rubidium> I never ever needed it for my current laptop
23:05:15 <Ruud> I have 5.5 hours batt time
23:05:18 <Rubidium> and that's already 2.5 years old
23:05:35 <Ruud> I decided to put the program files dir on the sec HD
23:06:02 <Ruud> Adobe Premiere, VS2008 ran like purrling little babies since the upgrade :)
23:06:33 <Bjarni> looks like a 2nd HD actually works in your case but usually they are more expensive than that and most notebooks doesn't even support it
23:06:59 <Ruud> But I do use it, and i do use it very much
23:07:14 <Ruud> next laptop isnt going to be one with less then 2 HDs :)
23:07:40 <Rubidium> ofcourse, for Windows you need 13 GB of free HD space to install Vista SP1 ;)
23:07:41 <Osai> I recompiled the server without --revision=r11601
23:07:53 <Osai> now it doesn't fail anymore
23:07:56 <Bjarni> rumours has it that the next MacBook will have no HD, but a whole lot of flash instead
23:08:08 <Ruud> yeah but then i want to of these in it :)
23:08:28 <Gonozal_VIII> hmm flash is nice
23:08:35 <Bjarni> then again the rumours claimed that Apple would make a TV with OSX inside it... they didn't do it at the time the rumour claimed
23:08:49 <Ruud> or a combo, 400GB HD & 32/64GB flash or something
23:09:09 <ln-> 00:58 < Ruud> so apple hardware is always more expensive, since i pay for the OS too <--- this is yet to be proven
23:09:14 <Bjarni> Ruud: now what do you need... two drives or just a whole lot of capacity?
23:09:25 <BiA|pavel-css> today is tomorow :) good night
23:09:42 <Osai> btw. guys, this conversation leads into nothing oO
23:10:01 <Bjarni> Ruud: so if they add a huge flash disk, you can always just format it into two drives
23:10:07 <Ruud> so ill probably go for a dual USB3 2,5" drive with ftwo flash drives
23:10:09 <Osai> that's the worst case, no matter which client or protocol you use :((
23:10:35 <Ruud> SpComb still didnt show up
23:11:22 <Bjarni> <ln-> 00:58 < Ruud> so apple hardware is always more expensive, since i pay for the OS too <--- this is yet to be proven <-- actually I saw a test like a year or two ago. It showed that Apple hardware isn't more expensive than other hardware. The difference is that Apple do not make the really low end computers so the cheapest one is more expensive than the cheapest from other companies. If you compare hardware of similar speed th
23:11:22 <Bjarni> en Apple has some decent prices
23:12:20 <svippy> I could not agree with him and myself more.
23:12:27 <Ruud> yes but i thought that in that test, the software was taken into account
23:12:43 <Ruud> which makes it flawed for my point
23:12:44 <Gonozal_VIII> good for you that you agree with yourself
23:13:01 <svippy> You're the greatest, Bender.
23:13:03 <Ruud> i tend to agree with myself quite a lot
23:13:18 <Ruud> anyway, to make this discussion worthy
23:13:29 <Rubidium> Ruud: exactly, because a default Windows PC does ship with only the OS and 300 '90-day' versions of all kinds of applications
23:13:46 <Rubidium> and the OS then being Windows Home
23:13:50 <Ruud> graphics are now prerendered
23:13:50 <svippy> Is Ruud proposing that we start shipping laptops with openttd preinstalled?
23:14:03 <Ruud> but Dell wouldnt cooperate
23:14:21 <svippy> Windows Home, Rubidium? Never heard of that.
23:14:25 <Bjarni> what would that make our non-profit coding strategy?
23:14:29 <Ruud> say you have a plane, you create it in some fancy 3D modelling software tool
23:14:45 <svippy> We can use the profit for charity, Bjarni.
23:14:47 <Bjarni> svippy: Windows XP or vista, home edition
23:14:56 <Gonozal_VIII> openttd should be preinstalled everywhere no matter if it's a desktop or a laptop or which os it uses :-)
23:15:03 <Ruud> then u probably render one image for each view corner
23:15:05 <svippy> Supercomputers as well.
23:15:13 <svippy> I would love to see "fast speed" on a supercomputer.
23:15:19 <Bjarni> it runs on the main server at uni
23:15:23 <Ruud> instead, these images should be rendered by ottd
23:15:27 <svippy> Or whatever you call that button that just makes it use all the CPU when you click it.
23:15:30 <Rubidium> svippy: I think you'll be disappointed
23:15:47 <Bjarni> just crappy due to the fact that we only have remote access to it so screen update makes it unplayable
23:15:56 <Rubidium> svippy: yes, the fact that only one thread is used
23:15:58 <Bjarni> it's made for raw math, not gaming
23:16:05 <svippy> Noooooooooo! Rubidium.
23:16:07 <Bjarni> but OTTD compiles and executes
23:16:34 <Ruud> I am only talking about the graphics here
23:16:53 <svippy> We are just talking nonsense, because we are bored.
23:16:54 <Gonozal_VIII> supercomputers use lots of cores, openttd only runs on one :-)
23:16:54 <Bjarni> <svippy> Or whatever you call that button that just makes it use all the CPU when you click it. <-- fast forward?
23:17:03 <svippy> Fast forward is too simple a term.
23:17:19 <svippy> Yes, Gonozal_VIII, but then we shall make openttd-supercomputer-ibm-edition!
23:17:25 <Ruud> the advantage would be that rendering a diferent view would be easy
23:17:32 <svippy> Runs on 1024 cores at once.
23:17:40 <Ruud> with extra usability souce
23:18:08 <Bjarni> I looked into adding threads to make use of more than one CPU. The result was that the game became more unstable, was 10% faster in ideal situations and 20% slower in worst case. Worst case would be if a game only had trains and road vehicles
23:18:09 <Ruud> SpComb, can I ask you something?
23:18:35 <Bjarni> so it will not be finished... we are better off with only one CPU
23:18:35 <Rubidium> Ruud: that is the stupidest question you can ever ask
23:18:42 <svippy> Sure, Bjarni, or was that just bad threading?
23:19:12 <svippy> Threading is not easy.
23:19:15 <Ruud> I would like to see threading implemented in taking screenshots though
23:19:24 <Bjarni> svippy: no... it was mutex locking in graphical drawing that killed the benefit from doing stuff like vehicle movements in threads
23:19:41 <Ruud> right now, try make a ss of whole map in a multiplayer game
23:20:04 <ln-> ladies and gentlemen: Sacro!
23:20:13 <Rubidium> Ruud: problem is that it has to render the WHOLE world and it cannot do that in a separate thread
23:20:21 <Rubidium> primarily because that will crash the drawing code
23:20:25 <svippy> ln-, you need to give him titles.
23:20:27 <Ruud> no but the network sync can be
23:20:39 <svippy> Like "the one and only" or "Jesus thinks he's a jerk", etc.
23:20:43 <Rubidium> you can't do the network syncs while drawing
23:20:54 <Rubidium> because that causes undrawable states
23:21:08 <Ruud> isnt there some kind of queue which can be put on pause?
23:21:37 <Rubidium> well, the queue is put on hold
23:21:38 <Ruud> but its probably cuz making a ss of the whole map is more some kind of gimmick feature
23:21:41 <Rubidium> it's the network queue
23:21:50 <Ruud> which I happend to use quite a lot :)
23:23:02 <Rubidium> and even when you would be drawing the map threaded and did not get crashes in the drawing due to 'impossible' states, you will get an image where different areas are drawn at different times, i.e. the image will contain a lot of artefacts
23:23:35 <Ruud> from a non-knowing developer viewpoint
23:23:38 <Bjarni> I have been wondering about making a thread to draw on the screen. One thread is the game that makes the thread and once it's done then another thread forwards that thread to the OS while the game thread moves on. The game thread will not start to make the next frame until the video driver thread is done
23:23:55 <Bjarni> I haven't checked the code yet though and I'm not sure that it will work
23:24:01 <Ruud> i would say that the object that is containing the information is cloned, and then in a different thread serialzed
23:24:22 <Osai> Rubidium: It works now, but somehow its strange
23:24:30 <Ruud> serialized to an image file
23:24:31 <Bjarni> it depends on how much the game thread can do before it starts to make the next frame
23:24:43 <Ruud> object --> the class instance that holds the graphic information
23:24:50 <Osai> why can't I use --revision=r11601 then?
23:24:56 <Rubidium> Osai: it is just you OpenTTDCoop guys that messed up with the version number again
23:25:55 <Rubidium> and the gathering the graphics information takes about half of the time needed for the drawing
23:26:10 <Bjarni> Ruud: OpenTTD was coded in C so the structure is without classes. We added C++ later but we didn't change the fundamental structure
23:27:07 <Rubidium> so you need to clone the whole game state, so it's probably easier to make a savegame, launch that in a second OpenTTD and make the screenshot in there
23:27:19 <Rubidium> much higher chance on actually working correctly
23:27:37 <Ruud> havent wrote/looked to a single line of C code, but i know its not an OO language
23:27:59 <Ruud> I know its blazingly fast (if proper implemented) and a pain to write
23:28:19 <Rubidium> Java can also be very fast
23:28:20 <Ruud> thats probably the loop in where all the code runs :)
23:28:45 <Ruud> but C is, and will be always faster then Java/C#/Javascript
23:28:54 *** Osai is now known as Osai^zZz
23:28:56 <Rubidium> that is where you are wrong
23:29:01 <Bjarni> <Ruud> I know its blazingly fast (if proper implemented) and a pain to write <-- pain to write? At least it's better than Java
23:29:23 <Ruud> the pain to write is a dev pref i guess then
23:29:46 <Bjarni> I can do stuff in C that I can't do in Java
23:29:48 <Rubidium> Java has something called JIT compiler which can make heavy use of knowledge about the paths taken
23:29:51 <Ruud> but fact is that a 3G language is *by definition* faster to use, but slower to exec
23:29:54 <Bjarni> or at least I don't know how to do in Java
23:30:22 <Rubidium> so in some cases Java can be faster than plain C
23:30:43 <Ruud> slower exec is inherent to the use of an interpreter, instead of compiling it to machine code
23:31:05 <Rubidium> Ruud: Java's JIT makes machine code
23:31:25 <Gonozal_VIII> obviously since it has to run on the cpu
23:31:32 <Ruud> JIT converts java to bytecode
23:31:38 <Ruud> nothing more, nothing less
23:31:50 <Ruud> the Java VM then interprets the bytecode
23:32:07 <Bjarni> you start by compiling to get the bytecode and JIT converts bytecode to machine code
23:32:23 <Ruud> and executes the interpreted bytecode (which then becomes machinecode)
23:33:16 <Ruud> so, to conclude: Java is compiled to bytecode, then bytecode is interpreted by a VM which then executes the resulting machinecode
23:33:53 <Bjarni> it's faster to convert bytecode to machinecode than it is to compile directly from Java. Bytecode is somewhat like ASM so it's fairly fast to convert
23:34:21 <Bjarni> but fairly fast is still slower than reading the machine code directly
23:34:38 <Rubidium> it says: The final phase does peephole optimization on the LIR and generates machine code from it
23:35:14 <Rubidium> so the JIT compiler (or HotSpot compiler, whatever is in the name) compiles Java bytecode to machine code
23:35:21 <Ruud> the thing you are aiming on, is pre-executing optimization, which indeed can result in faster code then written by humans in a 2G language
23:35:49 <Rubidium> it is optimization that is done during execution
23:35:56 <Ruud> But if the devver in , say, a C language also optimizes it, then it *never* can be faster
23:36:00 <Gonozal_VIII> could you compile the class files to machinecode instead of using them in the virtual machine?
23:36:25 <Ruud> the optimization is always done *before* exec, since otherwise it won't have any effect :)
23:36:28 <Bjarni> Ruud: a good example of C vs Java. The first midi player for OSX (in OpenTTD) was written as extmidi and it was in java. Then some other guy coded a midi player in C. The one in C is way faster and doesn't have breaks between each track
23:36:48 <Ruud> becuase of the bytecode which needs to be interpreted
23:36:49 <Rubidium> Ruud: Java's machine code generation does not happen before the first execution
23:37:10 <Ruud> which some cool alg in it
23:37:16 <Rubidium> it happens when it 'sees' that it is executed often, it regenerates it as machine code
23:37:31 <Ruud> compile-> interpret bytecode -> optimize for exec -> exec
23:37:43 <Ruud> C: compile -> machine code
23:37:43 <Bjarni> the java code just forwarded the midi file to a library while the C code converts the read file to another one in memory and forwards it to the quicktime framework. The C code is way more complex
23:38:07 <Ruud> now say that function is optimized perfectly by the human devver and the JIT
23:38:27 <Rubidium> Java with Hotspot compiler: compile -> interpret bytecode -> exec -> see it gets run awfully often -> generate optimized machine code -> move execution from byte code to machine code
23:38:29 <Ruud> should result in the same ASM code/machine code
23:38:41 <Bjarni> but then again it only depends on the quicktime framework and that's present in any OSX installation so the need for extra libs for this died
23:39:19 <Ruud> which is always faster execed on the C variant, since no (first time) optimization/interpreation occurs
23:40:00 <Ruud> Hotspot compiler is client side or devver side? dev uses it or client?
23:40:24 <Bjarni> if you realise that a piece of code is run really often then it's good to look at it for optimisation. Sometimes optimisation can be something you don't normally think about.
23:40:24 <Ruud> so in order to use it, i have to install it somehow in my VM?
23:41:07 <Rubidium> or maybe even earlier
23:41:14 <Ruud> wonder why i don't know about it then
23:41:42 <Ruud> anway, u agree on my point that C is inherently faster then any 3G language?
23:41:57 <Bjarni> PPC ASM has conditionally branch (like other ASM) but it has the addon that the guess for the pipeline can be either always true or false so if you know that a check will be wrong 1 out of a million then using the right ASM command will save you from wrong guesses in the pipeline
23:42:17 <Bjarni> I wish I had a keyword for doing that in C instead of using ASM to do that
23:42:37 <Rubidium> C is not per definition always faster than any 3G language
23:42:54 <Ruud> but then i did not got your point why
23:43:18 <Rubidium> because for example Java can do optimization in the byte code based on the usage, whereas C can't
23:43:22 <Bjarni> C can be really slow if the coder is stupid. C++ might help coders more if they don't care about speed
23:43:39 <Ruud> true, but thats the coder
23:43:42 <Gonozal_VIII> if you want it as fast as possible, you need to write machinecode directly :D
23:44:03 <Ruud> yes but that also counts for C#/java
23:44:21 <SmatZ> Rubidium: you can run profiling and then recompile using gathered statistics
23:44:25 <Ruud> that is why i am saying: the same optimized function runs faster in C then any 3G lang
23:44:32 <Rubidium> SmatZ: but that is not adaptive
23:45:03 <Ruud> cuz the interpretation/optimization is not there at runtime
23:47:49 <Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> if you want it as fast as possible, you need to write machinecode directly :D <-- a friend of mine told me that their app (or firmware if you like) took 10 (or was it 20) sec to print a page (this was decades ago). The boss said that this was too slow. The code was written in Pascal and they already optimised it as much as they could so they discarded the whole print procedure and started over using as much ASM as pos
23:47:49 <Bjarni> sible. They ended up with a print that took 2 sec
23:48:04 <Bjarni> but it was a whole lot of hard work
23:48:37 <Bjarni> usually coding something in ASM isn't worth it today because the compilers can do a great job today
23:48:52 <Bjarni> something big, that is
23:49:33 <Gonozal_VIII> we need intelligent compilers :-)
23:49:59 <Bjarni> the one I wrote needed the last line to end with a .
23:50:10 <Bjarni> even if . wasn't part of the symtax
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23:50:15 <Bjarni> and it took a while to figure out why
23:50:50 <Bjarni> it was a real mystery until we finally figured out why it did that and then it was completely natural that it needed it
23:51:31 <Bjarni> I wouldn't recommend that compiler though
23:51:53 <Bjarni> GCC produces better code and it will do that faster
23:52:43 <Bjarni> also all it could do was function calls, simple math, if, loops and printf
23:52:52 <Eddi|zuHause> could it have something to do that pascal needs a . at the end?
23:52:55 <Bjarni> oh and it could handle int too
23:53:12 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause: no. We tried to make a C like compiler :)
23:53:25 <Eddi|zuHause> that was not my question ;)
23:53:58 <Bjarni> it has to do with how the source file is read
23:54:54 <Ruud> i wrote a compiler half year ago
23:55:06 <Bjarni> then it's newer than mine
23:55:20 <Gonozal_VIII> must be much better then :D
23:55:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i am studying compiler construction
23:55:51 <Rubidium> been there, done that ;)
23:55:57 <Bjarni> I did that when I made the compiler
23:57:21 <Bjarni> I remember when I was finishing an assignment when I showed up here to ask a question about bison and said that I had to know before the deadline that was in 30 minutes or so. Then Darkvater kicked me with the reason "get back to work and finish your assignment instead of wasting time on IRC"
23:58:05 <Bjarni> now that didn't help me
23:58:27 <SmatZ> I wrote a simple C compiler, too... not to be worse than you ;)
23:58:32 <Bjarni> then I tried the gpmi channel instead and got the answer in like 20 sec
23:58:38 <Ruud> but my compiler lacked so many things i hardly would call it a compiler
23:58:41 <SmatZ> so... who hasn't written a compiler? :-D
23:59:17 <Ruud> lets make a new myspace TheOTTDersWhoAlsoWroteCompilers group.
23:59:37 <SmatZ> Gonozal_VIII: you really should :)
23:59:49 <Bjarni> <SmatZ> so... who hasn't written a compiler? :-D <-- I was about to say "my mom", but then... I better be sure about this so I will say "cousin's one year old son"
23:59:53 <Gonozal_VIII> i'm only 3rd semester :P
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